PDA

View Full Version : Rand and Matts Aelfinn answers (tgs)


Devlin1969
11-09-2009, 03:26 PM
I apologize if this is the incorrect place for this thread. But I wanted to post my Theory because I think we will see it in the next book.


When Rand goes to Ebou Dar to destroy the Seanchan, as he is walking through the city and also before in the Tinker camp, he takes note of everything that is positive in the lands that the Seanchan conquer.

After the scene on Dragon Mount when Rand appears to come out of his dark place it made me think about the thoughts he had. I instantly thought that Rand will remember this and he will use the Seanchan to bring peace to the lands.

Then I starting think and re-reading and I looked at the Aelfinn answers again. And something hit me like a ton of bricks.
In one of Rand answers he was told:
* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

So for the most part Rand controls the North and the East already. So I thought to myself that he could use the Seanchan to bring together the west and the south. (The Aelfinn just said they had to be as one, not that they had to be as one under Rand specifically).
Then that made me think of Matt and I looked back at one of his answers:
When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world!

Matt is married to the Empress who already controls a little less then a quarter of Randland, and soon I belive it will be half of Randland.

I dont know if I have an 'End point", maybe I am posting this just to get people talking about the posobilites and implications.
But I believe that Matt will play a part between what happens between Rand and the Seanchan, and in fact I think he will somehow be in control of the decision, ether on rands part or Tuons part and even possibly both.

Crispin's Crispian
11-09-2009, 04:08 PM
I apologize if this is the incorrect place for this thread. But I wanted to post my Theory because I think we will see it in the next book.


When Rand goes to Ebou Dar to destroy the Seanchan, as he is walking through the city and also before in the Tinker camp, he takes note of everything that is positive in the lands that the Seanchan conquer.

After the scene on Dragon Mount when Rand appears to come out of his dark place it made me think about the thoughts he had. I instantly thought that Rand will remember this and he will use the Seanchan to bring peace to the lands.

Then I starting think and re-reading and I looked at the Aelfinn answers again. And something hit me like a ton of bricks.
In one of Rand answers he was told:
* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

So for the most part Rand controls the North and the East already. So I thought to myself that he could use the Seanchan to bring together the west and the south. (The Aelfinn just said they had to be as one, not that they had to be as one under Rand specifically).
Then that made me think of Matt and I looked back at one of his answers:
When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world!

Matt is married to the Empress who already controls a little less then a quarter of Randland, and soon I belive it will be half of Randland.

I dont know if I have an 'End point", maybe I am posting this just to get people talking about the posobilites and implications.
But I believe that Matt will play a part between what happens between Rand and the Seanchan, and in fact I think he will somehow be in control of the decision, ether on rands part or Tuons part and even possibly both.Most of this is pretty accepted already, but I like the idea of "half the light of the world" having something to do with the Seanchan and control. It don't think it's the answer, but I like it anyway.

Something else occurred to as I was reading your post. One of Mat's wishes was to be free of Aes Sedai and the One Power. I think everyone assumes (with good reason) the answer to this is his Foxhead medallion. But what if the Seanchan collaring of Aes Sedai is also an answer? Or alternatively, when Mat begins accepting his role as a Seanchan prince, he will believe the use of a'dam is the answer. I mean, clearly Tuon also wants to be free of Aes Sedai, and has the means to accomplish it.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 04:47 PM
One of Mat's wishes was to be free of Aes Sedai and the One Power. I think everyone assumes (with good reason) the answer to this is his Foxhead medallion. But what if the Seanchan collaring of Aes Sedai is also an answer? Or alternatively, when Mat begins accepting his role as a Seanchan prince, he will believe the use of a'dam is the answer. I mean, clearly Tuon also wants to be free of Aes Sedai, and has the means to accomplish it.
I had the same idea about a week ago, and I've got to agree in some respects and disagree with others. First off, no, Mat won't look to the a'dam as a way of being free of the Aes Sedai. He wants to be free of their meddling, but he doesn't want them collared to do it.

That said, people's ideas take a very long time to change and even if Tuon were to have a complete about face with the issue it would still be decades or centuries before the Seanchan would lose their prejudice of channelers.

This likely means that once Mat shacks up with Tuon (and yes that was the worst answer off the top of my head) it's quite likely that he will be free of Aes Sedai influence, quite likely for his entire life.

Edit: in response to the OP, Rand should have the north and the east, but the North is currently in the South dicking around outside of Far Madding. Rand's gonna need to fix that very soon.

Further, the Seanchan are likely to adopt the Domination Brand which controls male channelers as well as Aes Sedai, which isn't what he wished for. No, Mat, just by virtue of living in a Seanchan society will be free of Aes Sedai advisers and influence just because it's Seanchan society and nothing to do with the a'dam.

Yuri33
11-09-2009, 09:04 PM
No, Mat will not advocate the use of a'dam in any way whatsoever:

Knife of Dreams, A Short Path:
“Listen,” Mat said to Tuon. “If you think, you’ll see a hundred reasons this won’t work. Light, you can learn to channel yourself. Doesn’t knowing that change anything? You’re not far different from them.” He might as well have turned to smoke and blown away for all the attention she paid.
...
“I will house them in the wagon they are using and exercise them at night.” she snapped irritably. “I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference.”
...
“I didn’t bring these three out of Ebou Dar so you could take them back.” Mat said firmly, sliding himself along the bed. The foxhead grew colder still, and Tuon made a startled sound.
“How did you… do that, Toy? The weave… melted… when it touched you.”
“It’s a gift, Precious.”
...
“They have annoyed me, Toy,” Tuon said as he put his hands on Teslyn’s collar. Still trembling, tears still streaming down her cheeks. the Red looked as though she could not believe he would actually remove the thing.
“They annoy me. too.” Placing his fingers just so. he pressed, and the collar clicked open.
...
“I want them to stop annoying me. Toy,” Tuon said as he turned to Joline. From anyone else, that might have been petulant. The dark little woman made it a demand.
“I think they’ll agree to that after this,” he said dryly. But Joline was looking up at him with a stubborn set to her jaw. “You will agree, won’t you?” The Green said nothing.
“I do agree,” Teslyn said quickly. “We do all agree.”
“Yes. we all agree,” Edesina added.
Joline stared at him silently, stubbornly, and Mat sighed.
“I could let Precious keep you for a few days, until you change your mind.” Joline’s collar clicked open in his hands. “But I won’t.”
Still staring into his eyes, she touched her throat as though to confirm the collar was gone. “Would you like to be one of my Warders?” she asked, then laughed softly. “No need to look like that. Even if I would bond you against your will, I couldn’t so long as you have that ter’angreal. I agree. Master Cauthon. It may cost our best chance to stop the Seanchan, but I will no longer bother… Precious.”
Tuon hissed like a doused cat, and he sighed again. What you gained on the swings, you lost on the roundabouts.

The Seanchan won't change right away, but it will be a lot less than "decades or centuries" for the change to take place. The systematic bondage of channelers is one of the foundations of the Empire, a pillar of their society. The secret of the a'dam is going to start getting out, if it hasn't started already. The Seanchan are going to have to change, but it's going to happen relatively quickly, probably within a decade. In all likelyhood, the evolution of the Seanchan empire after TG, especially as they deal with the truth of the a'dam, would be a central theme to RJ's proposed outrigger novel about Mat and Tuon.

nameless
11-09-2009, 09:12 PM
I was always a little surprised at the depths of hypocrisy in Tuon's reaction. "I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder." I wonder what Seanchan law says about forcing someone else to steal for you or murder for you. Knowing them it's probably punishable by some exotic form of torture.

Azure Skeith
11-09-2009, 09:14 PM
In one of Rand answers he was told:
* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

This isn't entirely on topic, but am I alone in the memory that one of the first times Rand thinks about his answer to that question he words it differently?

"The North and the East shall he bind together. The West and the South shall be bound together. The two must be bound as one."

At that point, it didn't mention the live die thing connected as the same question IIRC. I specifically remember the first time I read it, because the obvious struck me, that Rand must bind the North and East, but he would not necessarily bind the West and South, like he assumed. I've been slightly confused by the rewording of it in the later books. I'd just look back through them, but I only have the last few with me here.

Terez
11-09-2009, 09:18 PM
The Seanchan won't change right away, but it will be a lot less than "decades or centuries" for the change to take place.I can see it happening immediately. All it would take would be for Tuon to channel once. :)

Yuri33
11-09-2009, 10:01 PM
I was always a little surprised at the depths of hypocrisy in Tuon's reaction. "I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder." I wonder what Seanchan law says about forcing someone else to steal for you or murder for you. Knowing them it's probably punishable by some exotic form of torture.

Yes, I remember a thread back on Yuku where I harped on this hypocrisy. And in fact, Tuon already knows the punishment for having someone else murder for you:

KoD, Remember the Old Saying:
It took her a moment to recognize Elbar’s hook-nosed face in that rotting mass, but as soon as she did. she fell forward, prostrating herself, kissing the floor tiles. Not in desperation, though. She could recover from this. Unless they had put Elbar to the question. “My eyes are lowered, Highness, that one of mine has offended you so deeply that you took his head.”
“Offended me.” Tuon seemed to be weighing the words. “It might be said he offended me. He tried to kill me.”
Gasps filled the room, and before Suroth could more than open her mouth, the Deathwatch Guard Banner-General planted a boot on her bottom, seized her crest in his fist, and hauled her upper body clear of the floor. She did not struggle. That would only have added to the indignity.
“My eyes are deeply lowered that one of mine should be a traitor, Highness,” she said hoarsely. She wished she could have spoken naturally. but the cursed man had her back arched till it was a wonder she could speak at all. “Had I even suspected, I would have had him put to the question myself. But if he tried to implicate me, Highness, he lied to protect his true master. I have some thoughts on that which I would share with you in private, if I may be allowed.” With a little luck, she could lay this to Galgan. His usurpation of her authority would help.
Tuon looked over Suroth’s head. She met Galgan’s eyes, and Abal-dar’s and Yamada’s, and those of everyone of the Blood, but not Suroth’s. “It is well known that Zaired Elbar was Suroth’s man completely. He did nothing that she did not order. Therefore Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is no more. This da’covale will serve the Deathwatch Guard as they wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be decent when she is sent to the block for sale.”
Suroth never thought of the knife she had intended to use to open her veins, a knife beyond reach in her apartments. She could not think at all. She started screaming, a wordless howl, before they even began cutting her clothing off.

I was surprised to see no hints of doubt concerning damane and sul'dam in her viewpoints in TGS.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 11:00 AM
No, Mat will not advocate the use of a'dam in any way whatsoever:



The Seanchan won't change right away, but it will be a lot less than "decades or centuries" for the change to take place. The systematic bondage of channelers is one of the foundations of the Empire, a pillar of their society. The secret of the a'dam is going to start getting out, if it hasn't started already. The Seanchan are going to have to change, but it's going to happen relatively quickly, probably within a decade. In all likelyhood, the evolution of the Seanchan empire after TG, especially as they deal with the truth of the a'dam, would be a central theme to RJ's proposed outrigger novel about Mat and Tuon.Perhaps he won't advocate the use of the a'dam, but he actually plans to spend his life with her, he's going to have to get used to it. There's really no way around it--if he wants to live with Tuon, he will need to sublimate his moral rejection of the a'dam that desire. Even if he works against it from the inside, the fact of his membership in the Empire may still satisfy the Eel'finn request.

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:03 AM
You're assuming that Tuon won't overcome her prejudice soon.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 11:15 AM
You're assuming that Tuon won't overcome her prejudice soon.
I'm not assuming it, I'm just suggesting that if she doesn't, my scenario could be a possibility. It would make for an interesting realization on Mat's part, is all.

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:24 AM
Well, I think that she won't have a choice but to change her ways. Won't take much for word to get out that sul'dam can also channel, and be collared, and I really think that Tuon herself will channel, probably without thinking, to save Mat from something. :)

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 11:48 AM
That could be pretty interesting, too. Perhaps Rand binds her with an Oath Rod. hahaha

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:52 AM
Yeah, I think we discussed that elsewhere on this board....somewhere, lol. Anyway, the damane thing keeps getting harped on as the one Seanchan policy that Randlanders WILL NOT accept, and Mat won't accept it either. And since the attitude is so ingrained, I can't see any way to get them to change so quickly than for the Empress herself to channel. Which, of course, she would have to be forced to do, by circumstance (like Bethamin was).

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 12:01 PM
Perhaps watching Shaidar Haran rip Selucia apart will give her an incentive not to trust to purely physical defenses?

Terez
11-10-2009, 12:32 PM
Pffft, that's not nearly as touching as her channeling to save Mat. :)

Davian93
11-10-2009, 12:33 PM
Pffft, that's not nearly as touching as her channeling to save Mat. :)

The wind will blow out the lamps in her room. She'll be wicked upset and channel them back on. The End.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 12:45 PM
The wind will blow out the lamps in her room. She'll be wicked upset and channel them back on. The End.Not the end.
The beginning. There are no beginnings in the Wheel of Time, but this was a beginning.

Your suggestion could very well be how the last book starts. Actually, that even fits in with the proposed title of it. :D

Weird Harold
11-10-2009, 02:48 PM
This isn't entirely on topic, but am I alone in the memory that one of the first times Rand thinks about his answer to that question he words it differently?



There is more than one source for the Northeast/Southwest division.

For example, the Karaethon Cycle:

eWot/prophecies/karaethon.html
ACoS,Ch34
"The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south."


Th differences in wording aren't going to make much difference in the final reality of Rand's Truce with the Seanchan when it happens.

Terez
11-10-2009, 02:54 PM
When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world!
Also, since no one has bothered to mention this yet....the prevailing theory on this is that Mat will lose an eye while rescuing Moiraine (without whom Rand will almost surely fail). Partly because it fits this prophecy, but mostly because of Min's viewing of an eye on a balance scale, and Egwene's dream of Mat dicing with Ba'alzamon while Thom pulls Moiraine's blue stone out of a fire. Oh, and Odin parallels.

Lord Bloodpath
11-11-2009, 12:52 AM
I just had an idea based on the wording of the prophecy..... 'he'll tie the north to the east...' and right now, all the power of the north is in the east and they are the only gov't officials who are:
a) really used to commanding armies in battle and
b) conversant with fighting Shadowspawn

When Rand talks with them, maybe he'll put them in charge of the defense of the realm, since he knows that the DO can send armies from either south or north.

the west bound to the south clearly means the SC will have their little empire but I wonder where exactly the limits of south and west are....

I think Arad Doman for sure, although Ituralde will be pretty upset about that and there's going to need to be some resolution for that one. I was thinking that Illian would stay Rand's, at least because he has the throne, but maybe he will concede it as part of a peace treaty.

It almost looks as if we have a 'center' to consider as well. Ghealdan, Murandy, and maybe Far Madding all seem like they could be up for grabs... or at least divvying up between Rand and Tuon.

Okay, so Mat.... first of all, he's going to talk to Birgitte, who will still hopefully have some knowledge/memories of the Finn and can give advice. We all know that they're going to 'cheat' by bringing matches/torches, a harp, and lots of iron chains. Maybe he, Thom and Noal will fight the Finn into negotiating at some point, and the Finn will demand one of Mat's eyes in order to let them escape.

I always liked the idea that maybe Mat would cause saidar to fail and would sacrifice one of his eyes to do it. I still hope so. I could see it happening. Plus, that'd teach all those arrogant witches to walk small..... :cool:

nameless
11-11-2009, 01:02 AM
I liked the idea of Mat blotting out half the Source somehow, but given Nicola's Fortelling about the Guardians balancing the Servants it seems unlikely, at least not for the immediate future after the Last Battle.

I doubt the Seanchan conquest will continue to go very smoothly. Apart from the reunited White Tower to contend with, there's the fact that they're completely ignorant about the Shadowspawn armies traveling through the Ways. They're only just starting to accept that Trollocs are real... what will happen to them the first time they go up against Fades, or Darkhounds? If they don't wise up and join Rand's side soon they'll be in for some seriously nasty surprises.

Lord Bloodpath
11-11-2009, 01:28 AM
excellent points, all. Although I think you may not be considering the fact that they already have had one run-in with Trollocs, and that every SC commander (even the not-so-good ones) does what the 'Great Captains' do and learn very quickly how to adapt.

Fortuona knows (now :rolleyes: ) that Trollocs are real and will consider the rest of what Mat warned her of. She will pass the word down and precautions will be taken. Plus, the SC have Travelling now. I would only be mildly surprised if they puzzled out Deathgates on their own.... No, the SC will kick it into high gear next book most likely and the only thing that will stop them will be Rand, Mat, or a massive preemptive by some FS.

camber71
11-11-2009, 01:58 AM
I think Egwene's dream regarding Mat's weighing two women on a scale(something like that) with the fate of the world resting on his choice has something to do Mat's 'Give up half the light of the world to save the world' answer. I have always subscribed to the loss of an eye theory...but what if he has to (temporarily but dramatically) abandon Tuon to go save Moiraine?

Frenzy
11-11-2009, 02:50 AM
I can see it happening immediately. All it would take would be for Tuon to channel once. :)
No it wouldn't. Several of Tuon's own siblings were made da'covale. Marath'damane are marath'damane no matter what their previous station. Moving from station to station is a veritable death in Seanchan culture, as seen with Egeanin and Tuon. if Fortuona starts channeling, it's as if she dies. There is a period of mourning, and then the empire moves on.

Terez
11-11-2009, 05:59 AM
No it wouldn't. Several of Tuon's own siblings were made da'covale.
Made damane? But in any case, she could easily reveal then that all sul'dam can channel, and that is what would cause the revolution. But the revolution won't happen unless Tuon is forced to channel.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 06:17 AM
Made damane? But in any case, she could easily reveal then that all sul'dam can channel, and that is what would cause the revolution. But the revolution won't happen unless Tuon is forced to channel.But they are already learning that all sul'dam can channel. Even if some of the captured AS won't be smart enough to rat out all sul'dam they encounter, others will be. Once the sul'dam know that each time they pass a damane they'll get an a'dam slapped around their necks, things will start getting dicey.

I do wonder how long it's gonna take Elaida to catch on to this trick, though.

Terez
11-11-2009, 06:22 AM
But they are already learning that all sul'dam can channel.
No they aren't. At least, not that we've heard of yet. Everyone who knew of it escaped with Mat. Except for Tuon and Selucia, of course.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 06:29 AM
A bunch of Kin who know it have ventured into the Seanchan lands. Anyone of those who gets caught will talk about it, I expect.

I do agree that it is possible no AS at all will puzzle it out. My assumption they would is definitely hasty, and contradicted by the available facts.

Terez
11-11-2009, 06:41 AM
A bunch of Kin who know it have ventured into the Seanchan lands. Anyone of those who gets caught will talk about it, I expect.

I do agree that it is possible no AS at all will puzzle it out. My assumption they would is definitely hasty, and contradicted by the available facts.
Whether they puzzle it out or not, the Seanchan aren't interested in damane opinions.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 07:18 AM
But they are interested in having damane point out marath'damane. Which, in this case, would become a serious problem for them.

Terez
11-11-2009, 07:22 AM
Yes, but if a damane pointed out a sul'dam, then I'm sure the damane would simply be punished.

Devlin1969
11-12-2009, 10:04 AM
I think Egwene's dream regarding Mat's weighing two women on a scale(something like that) with the fate of the world resting on his choice has something to do Mat's 'Give up half the light of the world to save the world' answer. I have always subscribed to the loss of an eye theory...but what if he has to (temporarily but dramatically) abandon Tuon to go save Moiraine?

I agree with you, this is very possible. We hear Tuon mention more then once in TGS that she wants, or needs to get Matt back. In a way I think she even thinks about having him snatched up and brought to her.
So we know Matt is on his Way to get Moiraine, if Tuon snatched him that would defiantly put a hiccup in his plans.
Then again I am assuming that Matt will go to get Moiraine next. We don't know what is in the letter that Verin gave him, and that could send Matt on another path altogether.

Lord Bloodpath
11-12-2009, 11:44 PM
If Mat spends an entire month in Caemlyn, or goes off in some random direction that isn't the conclusion of a subplot more than seven books long, or involving multiple armies fighting collosal hordes of Shadowspawn in one battle, I. will. be. very. put. out.

Terez
11-12-2009, 11:45 PM
You? Thom will be blowing out his mustaches. Repeatedly.

FelixPax
11-13-2009, 04:27 AM
Perhaps watching Shaidar Haran rip Selucia apart will give her an incentive not to trust to purely physical defenses?
Pffft, that's not nearly as touching as her channeling to save Mat

Selucia is all but Tuon/Fortuona's 'mother figure'. Fortuona cares about Selucia and Mat.

Fortuona should be a 'sparker' considering her age, and the exception the now dead prior Empress gave her to let test to become a Sul'dam at an early age. Remember Tuon was her mother's favorite, that should of counted for something.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2009, 04:52 AM
You? Thom will be blowing out his mustaches. Repeatedly.Think about how Elayne will be, with Mat consistently refusing to pay her proper homage as her subject.

Come to think of it: would Rand count as her subject?
With his parents and all, that's a bit of a tricky question, I think.

ShadowbaneX
11-13-2009, 09:38 AM
Think about how Elayne will be, with Mat consistently refusing to pay her proper homage as her subject.

Come to think of it: would Rand count as her subject?
With his parents and all, that's a bit of a tricky question, I think.
Mat and Rand are currently NFA, no fixed address and as such have no monarchs that rule them. If they were to set-up permenant residence at that point they would be come the subject of the royalty that rules the nation their domiciles were in.

Also, Rand is the King of Illian and while there is the counter-example of Alliandre who swore fealty to Perrin, neither Rand nor Mat, have made any such oaths and are free men.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2009, 09:45 AM
Mat and Rand are currently NFA, no fixed address and as such have no monarchs that rule them. If they were to set-up permenant residence at that point they would be come the subject of the royalty that rules the nation their domiciles were in.

Also, Rand is the King of Illian and while there is the counter-example of Alliandre who swore fealty to Perrin, neither Rand nor Mat, have made any such oaths and are free men.Does Elayne believe any of that?

ShadowbaneX
11-13-2009, 04:28 PM
does it matter if she does?

I seriously doubt anyone is successfully going to command either Rand do to anything, and the only person able to get Mat to do anything seems to be Rand. Tuon could get him to do a variety of things, but I doubt she'd succeed if they were outright commands.

ArtK
11-15-2009, 10:07 AM
Yes, but if a damane pointed out a sul'dam, then I'm sure the damane would simply be punished.

Actually, it's more likely (IMO) they'd slap an adam on sul'dam's neck, then punish the damane when(/if) it didn't work.

I haven't read any of the discussion (if any) regarding the death of the empress, but this could have been the result of Rand and Aviendha's excursion (via gateway) into the Empire and her comment that the two sul'dams could channel. Note the seeker's order to arrest them. This could have blown up into the slaughter of the entire Imperial family.

jason wolfbrother
11-15-2009, 12:09 PM
I thought Semirhage was responsible for the Imperial family slaughter???

Weird Harold
11-15-2009, 12:54 PM
I thought Semirhage was responsible for the Imperial family slaughter???
Well, she claimed credit for it and according to Rand, she seldom lies. :D

ArtK
11-15-2009, 10:44 PM
Well, she claimed credit for it and according to Rand, she seldom lies. :D

Did she? I don't have the book in front of me, but IIRC she made a comment about how much blood... (something), then said "let the Lord of Chaos rule". (Letting Suroth believe her responsible, since she knew of no other explanation.) Since I was expecting something like this in the Empire ever since Rand and Aviendha's excursion, I remember looking very closely at what Semirhage said for evidence of actually claiming credit. Still, I suppose I could have simply seen what I was expecting.

I suppose I'll have to look up the exact quote, unless somebody else has it handy.

FelixPax
11-16-2009, 12:08 AM
I apologize if this is the incorrect place for this thread. But I wanted to post my Theory because I think we will see it in the next book.
Welcome to Theoryland, thanks for posting! :)

Then I starting think and re-reading and I looked at the Aelfinn answers again. And something hit me like a ton of bricks.
In one of Rand answers he was told:
* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

The Aelfinn's second answer to Rand is commonly interpreted as being framed under the assumption that the locations are based only on the "Westlands" by most individuals. However, if the Aelfinn's 2nd answer to Rand was framed upon the whole greater continent, the light is losing the battle big-time.

North = Blight, controlled by the Shadow
East = Shara, controlled likely by the Shadow
South = split in factions, Seanchan & Randland
West = split in factions, Seanchan & Randland

If Fortuona and Rand don't make-up soon, under the whole contintent assumption--the Pattern will be destroyed because the Shadow would win.

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

A far more unusual and rare interpretation would be seeing the framing assumptions as:

North = Blight
East = Shara
West = Seandar to Aiel Waste
South = Sea Folk isles, and Isle of Madmen

In this rare take, the south and west are the key to winning against the Shadow in the Aelfinn's eyes; those Sea Folk clans & the Seanchan peoples.

The strange thing about this 3rd interpretation is we simply haven't seen very much back-story out the Sea Folk lately; only hints across the series since tEoW beginning with Bayle Domon to Bors to Rhuarc to Valan Luca's circus. The only really in-depth scenes with the Sea Folk peoples came with Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat, Rand, Harine and Logain.

The Sea Folk Clans and Aiel Clans are basically very distantly related societies, each with 12 Clans and one missing "lost clan" (Amayar & Tinkers). Harine (KoD, "To Make an Anchor Weep" pg 467 hardback) does in fact mention, "First Twelve of the Atha'an Miere" who are all Clan Wavemistress with two dozen women in the room, the 12 being Clan Winderfinders. Meanwhile the Amayar & Tinkers each found a peaceful non-violent belief system. The Sea Folk and Amayar as a people were separated from Aiel & Tinkers during the "Breaking" (3,000 years back roughly). Each later further separated, into war-like and non-warring factions.

Unfortunately, the story has not told us what all the Sea Folk Clan names are, nor who all the Clan leaders are; unlike what we know of the Aiel.


Matt is married to the Empress who already controls a little less then a quarter of Randland, and soon I belive it will be half of Randland.

Did you forget the first question Mat asked of the Aelfinn?

“Should I go home to help my people?” he asked finally.

All we got in reply was, "You must go to Rhuidean", which was the home of the Tinkers/Jenn Aiel shortly after the Breaking (according to Rand's pov in Rhuidean of the Jenn Aiel).

Does Mat have a paradox to struggle in his very own life, as both Perrin and Rand do too? Are Mat's people formerly the original Aiel helpers to the Aes Sedai of the pre-Breaking Era? Who are now the remaining, Tinkers, Aiel Clans, Sea Folk Clans, and any surviving Amayar who are on the Seachan controlled Sea Folk islands in the west? Mat leads the Band of Red Hand, and yet his people include the Tinkers, Amayar? It's possible, but is it true?