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One Armed Gimp
11-09-2009, 03:55 PM
I have been wracking my brain, as I am sure quite a few of you have, trying to find something. Here is what I have come up with as my best idea thus far and its not much, more of a path to follow maybe.

I know this has been brought up before, but to re-hash some thoughts:

-Mat will play a big role in the next book
-the ToG will take a good chunk of the book

With these things in mind I keep coming back to the games Snakes and Foxes and Olver.

The game has been discussed before, but, imho, somewhat glossed over. We have Bridgette's comment to Perrin, Moiraine's letter to Thom and some other references. Olver has been discussed mostly as an option for Gaidal, which we know is not the case. We do know that Olver will be more than just a red herring and that he is determined to find a way to beat the game.

There are a few little things spread throughout the series about it as well, such as Mat getting a knife in the doorway no problem, so we can guess that they can't sense these forbidden things but we can lie to them.

I could easily see this being a slap the forehead thing since RJ has been throwing it in our faces for a while. Now the trick would be to find what we are overlooking.

I feel like I am looking at a puzzle with pieces missing, but I could just as easily be barking up the wrong tree.

One thing that wouldn't surprise me is Olver playing a role in the ToG, either taking Noal's place or something else entirely.

Anyway, any thoughts?

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Moiraine's instructions were quite explicit. I don't see Olver being involved.

Though I have no idea what the point of him is in the series.

Ieyasu
11-09-2009, 04:32 PM
Moiraine's instructions were quite explicit. I don't see Olver being involved.

Though I have no idea what the point of him is in the series.

I dont see her letter as precluding Olver from going. Everyone assumes it will be Noal, which is most likely true, but there is nothing specific in the letter that says Olver cant be one of the 3 who go.

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 04:38 PM
I dont see her letter as precluding Olver from going. Everyone assumes it will be Noal, which is most likely true, but there is nothing specific in the letter that says Olver cant be one of the 3 who go.

Does she not say another man?

legends be wrought
11-09-2009, 05:01 PM
I certainly wouldnt be surprised to see Oliver play a very large role in the rescue of Moiraine. He (was) just too obsessed with snakes and foxes. However, I dont know what role he would play. I still think Noal will join Matt and Thom.

Another possibility for the small detail could be in the contract between the Sea Folk and Rand. While I wasnt able to spot any obvious impacts to the future with the contract, dealings with the Sea Folk were more abundant in books 4-6. The Sea Folk have since turned unimportant, except as another group of Channelers of saidar. I think they will be very significant to at least one of the major plot devices in the last two books, whether or not the minor detail refers to them.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 05:09 PM
I like this thought, but I wonder if Olver himself can be said to be a small detail...or is it something about Olver, some detail about him that tends to stick in your mind for a second but you find it unimportant, so you move on...specifically because we know he is not Gaidal Cain...that will shock us because it indicates something about Olver that we all missed?

Kurtz
11-09-2009, 05:29 PM
I like this thought, but I wonder if Olver himself can be said to be a small detail...or is it something about Olver, some detail about him that tends to stick in your mind for a second but you find it unimportant, so you move on...specifically because we know he is not Gaidal Cain...that will shock us because it indicates something about Olver that we all missed?

....Demandred :eek:

One Armed Gimp
11-09-2009, 05:33 PM
I do agree that Noal is the more likely of the two options and I am pretty sure Moiraine says "another man".

It's specifically the game and Olver that I am stuck on, I feel that a small detail is there that we overlooked. Courage to strengthen definitely seems to fit Olver though he could easily be used for something else.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 05:43 PM
...but now that you bring it up...

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 05:54 PM
Well, the Tower of Ghenji is likely going to be very important, but it isn't the only thing that is going to happen. Morgase is going to be reunited with Galad and likely take a trip to Caemlyn and see Elayne, and there's also the matter of the changes that have happened in the Two Rivers starting in book 4, especially if Perrin is with Morgase.

One Armed Gimp
11-09-2009, 05:58 PM
Yes, but I thinking big. I believe BS said it would play a major role or a big role or something like that so I am thinking bigger first, not throwing out other alternatives. Wanted to get some feelers out on this one.

Fortunately, I was on book 4 when 12 came out so as I continue on I will pay more attention to details. I also think I will look for something on Olver. We know he has some point to serve in the series per RJ.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 06:05 PM
yes, but even the smallest event can become huge if done right.

Also, what about the Ogier? Not Loial specifically, but perhaps something else? They were involved a fair amount, Loial's mother, etc in the books 4-6 and not much discussed.

Tamyrlin
11-09-2009, 06:41 PM
Come to fight for Rand, with Loial leading it? :)

Ivhon
11-09-2009, 06:58 PM
...but now that you bring it up...

Refresh my memory from too long away from these boards:

Why have we ruled out Talmaindred? I don't remember a POV from him, anywhere. Is it just because he hasn't tried to take Mat out?

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 07:11 PM
possibly, but that also brings up an interesting point: if the Ogier open up the book of Translation, what happens to all the Seanchan Ogier? Do they get left behind or are they taken with?

edit: Humm, Jak o' the Shadows appeared in tFoH

One Armed Gimp
11-09-2009, 07:29 PM
Refresh my memory from too long away from these boards:

Why have we ruled out Talmaindred? I don't remember a POV from him, anywhere. Is it just because he hasn't tried to take Mat out?

If I am not mistaken, I am pretty certain that RJ said we had not seen Demandred's alter ego on screen.

Bonzi77
11-09-2009, 07:30 PM
Refresh my memory from too long away from these boards:

Why have we ruled out Talmaindred? I don't remember a POV from him, anywhere. Is it just because he hasn't tried to take Mat out?

Isn't Demandred supposed to be utterly humorless? Doesn't really mesh with Talmanes.

One Armed Gimp
11-09-2009, 07:33 PM
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Michael_Martin_Dayton_Signing_January_16%2C_2003

Q: Have we yet seen the alter-ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?

A(RJ): NO. (I asked twice to make sure.)

JSUCamel
11-09-2009, 07:48 PM
Refresh my memory from too long away from these boards:

Why have we ruled out Talmaindred? I don't remember a POV from him, anywhere. Is it just because he hasn't tried to take Mat out?

Because RJ has said a bajillion times that Taim is not Demandred. He never said that Olver wasn't Demandred though ;)

FelixPax
11-09-2009, 07:55 PM
Another possibility for the small detail could be in the contract between the Sea Folk and Rand. While I wasnt able to spot any obvious impacts to the future with the contract, dealings with the Sea Folk were more abundant in books 4-6. The Sea Folk have since turned unimportant, except as another group of Channelers of saidar. I think they will be very significant to at least one of the major plot devices in the last two books, whether or not the minor detail refers to them.

I've noticed that RJ showed the public fracturing of two major sides within both the Sea Folk clans and the Salidar Ajah Heads. With the Rebels everyone in the camp knew about Romanda Cassin and Lelaine, each desiring to become Amyrlin Seat. While among the Sea Folk public fracturing can be seen in the hatred of two sisters, then combined with polarization between Zaida din Parede Blackwing of Clan Catelar and Harine din Togara Two Winds of Clan Shodein, to become the next Mistress of Ships after Nesta din Reas Two Moons was kill by the Seanchan during the Great Escape.

Three minor/major Sea Folk details might have to do with the Sea Folk man who attended Ishamael's Darkfriend Social hour in tFoH Prologue; then there is the impact of a formerly Windfinder to Mistress of the Ships before Nesta din Reas Two Moons, who is currently last known to be in Caemlyn (Senine who went from the highest Windfinder around to the operating a small soarer in Ebou Bar); and of course a very important politically connected Sea Folk apprentice Talaan who now wants to become an Aes Sedai.

Two of these Sea Folk character may play a very important part in the next two books: Talaan in terms of Sea Folk to Aes Sedai relationship, unknown high ranking Sea Folk darkfriend to undermining Zaida implementation of the Bargain with the Coramoor.

Senine part in the future of the story I'm not sure of, because Zaida become the newest Mistress of the Ships with two prior Windfinders to the Mistresses of the Ships in Caemlyn, Renaile din Calon Blue Star was the other Windfinder. I think it will be highly interesting to see what Mat thinks of each former Windfinder to the Mistress of Ships when he arrives in Caemlyn, considering one of his Eelfinn given memories recalls dancing with the Wavemistress of the Clan Shodein.

-----------------------------------------------

There are three other small details which I can think of which connect Verin Sedai to the Sea Folk. Those three small details are: (1) the star maps/charts within Verin's rooms in the Tar Valon library building which show stars Egwene never had seen before (Southern Hemisphere star clusters?? In Shara at the equator??), (2) Verin learned before Cadsuane that Nesta din Reas Two Moons was killed (CoT, Chapter 23), lastly (3) Verin spoke of the TAR as the "Third Constant", "Illusions" which is similar in vocabulary and concepts to how the Amayar describe the TAR (which implies possibly that Verin visited the Sea Folk islands somehow).

Its an open question if one of Verin's many letters to given out before visiting Egwene, deals with the Sea Folk in particular or not???

-------------------------------------------------

The Sea Folk clans all have a parallel major dislike of the Seanchan likely rising to the Amys judgment of "blood feud" towards the Seanchan Empire, why? The Seanchan enslaved every Windfinder they could find, and killed hundreds of Winderfinders and a Mistress of Ships during the Great Escape from Ebou Bar. While the enslavement of the Shiado Wise Ones created a new "blood feud" in Amys judgment. Both the Sea Folk and remains Aiel Clans will be united in their dislike toward the Seanchan Empire. Each of these groups in combination with the Kin and newly reunited Aes Sedai all can agreement that the Seanchan are a major threat. Yet the Sea Folk clans Windfinders have fought the Seanchan Damane far more than any of the other groups of female channelers together. Only Rand's Asha'man are at all close here.

Azure Skeith
11-09-2009, 07:57 PM
There are a few little things spread throughout the series about it as well, such as Mat getting a knife in the doorway no problem, so we can guess that they can't sense these forbidden things but we can lie to them.

They don't want iron, Mat's daggers were steel, which to him were two different things entirely. Steel is still just a refined iron alloy, so they maybe able to 'sense thoughts', but since Mat thought he had no iron, it didn't apply.

Weird Harold
11-09-2009, 07:58 PM
Because RJ has said a bajillion times that Taim is not Demandred. He never said that Olver wasn't Demandred though ;)
He's talking about Talmanes + Demandred = Talmaindred, not Taim + Demandred = Taimandred.

JSUCamel
11-09-2009, 08:01 PM
He's talking about Talmanes + Demandred = Talmaindred, not Taim + Demandred = Taimandred.

Whoops. I completely misread that.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 08:05 PM
more likely it's cold iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore) which is reputed to be able to ward off the spirits or even neutralize their powers.

Davian93
11-09-2009, 08:06 PM
more likely it's cold iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore) which is reputed to be able to ward off the spirits or even neutralize their powers.

Maybe the Finn are really just Styrics brought over in a wacky David Eddings crossover.

Weird Harold
11-09-2009, 08:08 PM
They don't want iron, Mat's daggers were steel, which to him were two different things entirely. Steel is still just a refined iron alloy, so they maybe able to 'sense thoughts', but since Mat thought he had no iron, it didn't apply.
Traditonally, "Elves" like the Aelfar (sp) of Norse tradition are burned, or sickened by "Cold Iron" but not by Steel (or "Hot Iron.")

Perhaps it is somewhat similar to the effect of drinking phosphoric acid and Coca Cola which only contains phosphoric acid.

Weird Harold
11-09-2009, 08:09 PM
Whoops. I completely misread that.
So did I at first glance.

ShadowbaneX
11-09-2009, 08:13 PM
they don't like eating pigs, I really don't think they'd like eating humans and wearing their skins.

Azure Skeith
11-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Traditonally, "Elves" like the Aelfar (sp) of Norse tradition are burned, or sickened by "Cold Iron" but not by Steel (or "Hot Iron.")

Perhaps it is somewhat similar to the effect of drinking phosphoric acid and Coca Cola which only contains phosphoric acid.

11 grams of phosphoric acid in 128 cups of coca cola, and 97.9-.99.8% iron content in steel. Somewhat similar yeah.

EDIT: that seems like it would come off as mean, I don't mean it too. Poor attempt at humor and I'm tired out of my mind, so automatic fail.

nameless
11-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Maybe the Finn are really just Styrics brought over in a wacky David Eddings crossover.

That would certainly explain why all the wolves have near-human intelligence and strange telepathic powers.

Belazamon
11-09-2009, 11:24 PM
...but now that you bring it up...
Obviously you haven't been paying attention, then! I believe we eliminated the possibility because they'd be able to tell he was actually taller than he looks just by touching him. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 05:24 AM
So, Mat and friends walk into the ToG, wander around a bit, find Moiraine and then discover that they're standing in a maze made up of straight lines, with some one way streets, and ten Aelfinn plus ten Eelfinn closing in on their positions. They're only allowed to move as far as the pips on the dice they throw indicate.
How's that not according to the game of Snakes and Foxes?

Mat will then have to figure out on the spot how to win the game against opponents who are playing for real.
Obviously you haven't been paying attention, then! I believe we eliminated the possibility because they'd be able to tell he was actually taller than he looks just by touching him.Well, we do know that he was smaller than LTT/Rand. We just never knew precisely how much smaller.

Terez
11-10-2009, 06:13 AM
Just a tad.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 06:56 AM
From this site (http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386600):
Melindra: You could be a great man. Greater than the Dragon Reborn. You could conquer all the world, and make every nation kneel before you! You could make women weep, and men gnash their teeth! You could forge the world in the image of the Great Lord, whom I love!

Mat: What?

Melindra: Nothing. Go Light. Now look over there.

Mat: Okay. Hey, no trying to kill me!

Melindra: Damn. Go Dark.

Mat: Hm. Something she said sounded odd. I must piece it together.Now, what was it that she actually said which might be so puzzling?
Melindhra's mouth tightened briefly. To his surprise, it was not over his leaving her. "So you slip back into Rand al'Thor's shadow. You have gained much honor of your own, among the Aiel as well as the wetlanders. Your honor, not honor reflected from the Car'a'carn."
"He can keep his honor and take it to Caemlyn or the Pit of Doom for all I care. Don't you worry. I'll find plenty of honor. I will write you about it. From Tear." Tear? He would never escape Rand, or Aes Sedai, if he made that choice.
"He is going to Caemlyn?"
Mat suppressed a wince. He was not supposed to say anything about that. Whatever he decided about the rest, he could do that much. "Just a name pulled from my pocket. Because of the Andorans down south, I suppose. I wouldn't know where he's – "
He had no warning. One instant she was just standing there, the next her foot was in his middle, driving out breath, doubling him over. Eyes bulging, he fought to keep his feet, to straighten, to think. Why? She spun like a dancer, backwards, and her other foot against the side of his head drove him staggering. Without a pause she leaped straight up, kicking out, her soft bootsole taking him hard flush in the face.How did Melindhra, a not very high ranking Aiel DF, know the importance of Rand going to Caemlyn instead of going to Illian?

If Mat ever were to read her diary (which he undoubtedly took with him), will he find precise locations of all the Forsaken?

lurk
11-10-2009, 10:36 AM
Gonzo,

Melindra could easily have been a DF ordered around by Rahvin. Maybe under orders to kill Mat if they choose to go to Caemlin. She says he has great honor, so undoubtly Rhavin would know Mat has certain skills he wouldn't want to face

WinespringBrother
11-10-2009, 01:22 PM
Gonzo,

Melindra could easily have been a DF ordered around by Rahvin. Maybe under orders to kill Mat if they choose to go to Caemlin. She says he has great honor, so undoubtly Rhavin would know Mat has certain skills he wouldn't want to face

The Chosen revealed this in their inner circle discussions. Sammael IIRC said that if Rand's attention were diverted from Illian than someone close to him would die to undivert his attention. Mat's comment let the cat out of the bag to darkfriend Mel and she tried to kill him.

Jokeslayer
11-10-2009, 01:39 PM
Obviously you haven't been paying attention, then! I believe we eliminated the possibility because they'd be able to tell he was actually taller than he looks just by touching him. ;)

Maybe Demandred's regular size is that of Olver but he makes him self look taller most of the time?

Weird Harold
11-10-2009, 01:39 PM
11 grams of phosphoric acid in 128 cups of coca cola, and 97.9-.99.8% iron content in steel. Somewhat similar yeah.

EDIT: that seems like it would come off as mean, I don't mean it too. Poor attempt at humor and I'm tired out of my mind, so automatic fail.
A bit of Hyperbole on bothour parts.

Still, iron contaning compounds aren't traditonally problematic to "elves" where as "Pure Iron" is always problematic and Steel isn't pure iron.

Good weapons grade steel also contains other elements besides iron and carbon, too, which might destroy the 'magical' properties of "pure iron" as far as "Elves" are concerned.

Eclipse
11-11-2009, 10:11 AM
that the tid-bit BS is referring to is Isam. i forget when the trollocs were marching along chanting ISAM, but i thought it was book four. and here and there, not much, slayer has popped up and added a few more details about Isam. and of course the next book deals with the ToG, from which slayer seems to come and go at will.

no idea what will make us slap our heads and go, "DUH!" when we read it, but my vote is for something to do with Isam.

lurk
11-11-2009, 10:18 AM
The Chosen revealed this in their inner circle discussions. Sammael IIRC said that if Rand's attention were diverted from Illian than someone close to him would die to undivert his attention. Mat's comment let the cat out of the bag to darkfriend Mel and she tried to kill him.

Yep that would make good sense too, thanks hadn't figured that out before

Belazamon
11-12-2009, 06:00 PM
that the tid-bit BS is referring to is Isam.
Unless you can narrow it down a lot further, Slayer/Isam is discussed far too much to be the clue, IMHO.

Weird Harold
11-12-2009, 07:12 PM
Elayne's (bad) bargain for the Bowl of the Winds still hasn't been met except for the few AS under Elayne's control and at least one of them has run away from the task (besides Nyneave not going back to Caemlyn to resume teaching them.)

Now that Egwene has reunited the Tower, the issue is going to be raised in the Hall because there is no more reason to stall.

I don't know of many, if any discussions about the consequences of that bargain bar two or three right after the Deal was made. Those quickly faded into hamster feed so Brandon isn't likely to have come across them; they were usually short discussions ending with RAFO.

Uno
11-12-2009, 10:56 PM
Traditonally, "Elves" like the Aelfar (sp) of Norse tradition are burned, or sickened by "Cold Iron" but not by Steel (or "Hot Iron.")

Perhaps it is somewhat similar to the effect of drinking phosphoric acid and Coca Cola which only contains phosphoric acid.

Not that I know. In Norse spirituality (which was pagan), elves were sometimes understood as a race of fair beings attendant on the god Freyr, and were objects of worship.

In Nordic folklore (which was Christian), "elves" was mostly just a generic name for any number of "underground people" (underjordiske), and steel, not iron, provides protection against these beings, as did crosses, Biblical verses, the ringing of church bells, and so on. Steel somehow binds these creatures from doing harm, which is why you might put steel objects in cradles to prevent them from swapping infants with changlings.

Weird Harold
11-13-2009, 12:42 AM
Not that I know. In Norse spirituality (which was pagan), ...

In Nordic folklore (which was Christian),

Sounds like you've got a more direct understanding of that region's folklore/history. I'm working from folklorists' commentaries on norse/nordic derived fiction -- and that derivitive fiction.

The descriptions you gave tells me that the Pagan versions is the source folklore -- it includes distinct races of fair folk for underground; "Dwarf" "Gnome" and "Kobold" cognates.

The Aelfar were only divided between "Losaelfar," or light elves and their dark cousins.

The distinction between Steel and Iron was depicted as being on the order of the difference in magical properties etween the various types of Aluminum Oxide crystals -- Beryl, Sapphire, Ruby, et al.

Uno
11-13-2009, 01:13 AM
Sounds like you've got a more direct understanding of that region's folklore/history. I'm working from folklorists' commentaries on norse/nordic derived fiction -- and that derivitive fiction.

The descriptions you gave tells me that the Pagan versions is the source folklore -- it includes distinct races of fair folk for underground; "Dwarf" "Gnome" and "Kobold" cognates.

The Aelfar were only divided between "Losaelfar," or light elves and their dark cousins.

The distinction between Steel and Iron was depicted as being on the order of the difference in magical properties etween the various types of Aluminum Oxide crystals -- Beryl, Sapphire, Ruby, et al.

Well, we don't actually know very much about what people in pagan Scandinavia thought about these things, but traces of their beliefs lived on in folklore into the twentieth century, that's true.

Basically, the underground people belonged to the untamed world beyond the safe hearth of human society. One may therefore understand steel--a human made substance--as a symbol of a tamed and ordered world. For much the same reason, bundles of grain were hung up around Yuletide, the most supernaturally dangerous time of the year to keep these influences at bay. Like steel, grain grown in ground broken by the plow is a potent symbol of the human order.

That's admittedly speculation, and I don't know how old these beliefs actually are. A few centuries, certainly. I can't recall ever hearing anyone using iron to ward off the invisible forces, but I seem to remember that runes must not be carved by any metal implements lest they lose their potency, so it's quite possible that either iron or steel would do in a pinch, at least in the pre-Christian era. Runes will also lose their force if exposed to sunlight, and a number of trolls and such are also averse to the Sun, as is well known.

I also think there was some belief in certain locales that iron objects must not be placed in coffins, as they might upset the spirits of the dead, but that's a belief from the Christian era, as the pagans deposited all sorts of metal items as mortuary offerings.

At any rate, you've got to use base metals as protection against these beings. Precious metals are obviously useless since the underground and mountain people were known to have hoards of gold and silver.

Anyway, in spite of these ramblings, my point is simply that I'm unfamiliar with the notion that the powers are more averse to iron than they are to steel. If anything, it's steel they have a big problem with.