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FelixPax
11-10-2009, 12:17 AM
Egwene wonders about where Mesaana is located:

Egwene has a feeling. A premonintion, perhaps. At the very least, a fear. There three names were the only ones who could have been the Forsaken. But none of them fit, not at all. That gave her a chill. Was Mesaana still hiding in the Tower?

Mesaana is still in the White Tower, confirms Brandon Sanderson at a booksigning today:

Has Mesaana’s alter ego been seen yet “on stage”? [I suspect the fan that asked this is one of the Blues I mentioned earlier, though she may be a Brown, too.]

A. “I’m afraid I’m going to have to RAFO [read and find out] that.” Any yes/no would set all the fans, especially on the message boards and fans into figuring it out by process of elimination. The crowd pressed him for hints, and he did confirm that she is still in the White Tower. This statement was met with speculative “oohhh”’s and pensive looks as new theories were born then and there. Source: Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1021)

So the question is who is Mesaana? What occupation has she been using? Cook, servant, helper, assist to a librarian, novice et la, but what & who? And how long has Mesaana been within the White Tower?

We can guess Mesaana is not using as cover an Aes Sedai identity, according to Egwene's own reasoning (tGS, pg 764). But I have a question, did Robert Jordan ever confirm in an interview we have seen Mesaana's alter ego in a scene before?

If so, the number of possible characters available is quite slim to be Mesaana.

Marie Curie 7
11-10-2009, 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Storm Leader Report, Milford, NH - November 9th 2009

Q: Has Mesaana's alter ego been seen yet "on stage"? [I suspect the fan that asked this is one of the Blues I mentioned earlier, though she may be a Brown, too.]

A. "I'm afraid I'm going to have to RAFO [read and find out] that." Any yes/no would set all the fans, especially on the message boards and fans into figuring it out by process of elimination. The crowd pressed him for hints, and he did confirm that she is still in the White Tower. This statement was met with speculative "oohhh's" and pensive looks as new theories were born then and there.

Sorry, but this question has already been answered by RJ. :rolleyes: The answer is YES - Mesaana's alter ego has been seen before. And, RJ indicated way back in 2003 that we should be able to figure out who she is.

Bailey's Crossroads VA 2005 - Robert Mee Reporting

Q: Have we actually seen Mesaana's alter ego in the White Tower?
RJ: Yes.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

Tallis: RJ said there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before Crossroads of Twilight. He basically said that he'd full-out reveal her in upcoming books, though: '...and if you still don't know, well, you'll find out later.'

We also know from the prologue to TGS that Graendal believes Mesaana to be an Aes Sedai in the Tower:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - What the Storm Means

That man frustrated her, though she would never admit it out loud. Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities. And, of course, Graendal's own newly minted association with Aran'gar was helpful as well. Aran'gar was playing with the rebel Aes Sedai, the ones who were besieging the White Tower.

There are other clues from previous books, of course, that Mesaana is Aes Sedai. In particular, when Mesaana is partially unmasked by Shaidar Haran in front of Alviaran, we learn that her dress is Aes Sedai-like and her face seems vaguely familiar to Alviarin, leading to the conclusion that Mesaana has to be posing as an Aes Sedai in the Tower. This was discussed recently in this thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2430).

But I have a question, did Robert Jordan ever confirm in an interview we have seen Mesaana's alter ego in a scene before?

Can you not use the interview database? Or the WoT Wiki? In the Interview Database, for example, click on the link for "Forsaken", and then search (Control-F) for Mesaana. The quotes that I listed here show up, and it takes only a few minutes...

Trutino
11-10-2009, 01:23 AM
Q. Has Mesaana’s alter ego been seen yet “on stage”? [I suspect the fan that asked this is one of the Blues I mentioned earlier, though she may be a Brown, too.]

A. “I’m afraid I’m going to have to RAFO [read and find out] that.” Any yes/no would set all the fans, especially on the message boards and fans into figuring it out by process of elimination. The crowd pressed him for hints, and he did confirm that she is still in the White Tower. This statement was met with speculative “oohhh”’s and pensive looks as new theories were born then and there.

I think the interesting thing about this quote is that Egwene was right when she said in tGS that she thought Mesaana escaped the purge. This is something we've been talking about since the book came out. (Assuming she's posing as an Aes Sedai, which I think she is.) I was just getting ready to post this quote myself!

ETA: This is from a new Q&A with BS. http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1021

Frenzy
11-10-2009, 01:39 AM
Why assume she's posing as a woman? Just because Alviarin caught hint of a skirt?

i wouldn't limit your search to female characters.

FelixPax
11-10-2009, 02:36 AM
Sorry, but this question has already been answered by RJ. :rolleyes: The answer is YES - Mesaana's alter ego has been seen before. And, RJ indicated way back in 2003 that we should be able to figure out who she is.

Yes, that was my ongoing assumption but I didn't know when RJ stated this "fact". When matters because it would narrow down the scope of possible characters as her alter ego.

However, the current Q&A interview with Brandon seems to directly imply that Mesaana remains in Tar Valon after the purging of Black Ajah in tGS. Before this Q&A interview one couldn't say for sure where Mesaana remains after the purge of BA's among the loyalist & rebels Aes Sedai.

People seems to enjoy exploiting other individuals errors with joy, I've noticed lately; so why give them fodder by showing more assumptions openly than necessary? :p

We also know from the prologue to TGS that Graendal believes Mesaana to be an Aes Sedai in the Tower:

Yes, so? Graendal is now likely dead, unless you believe someone else gave Lord Ramshalan a compulsion weave from that Fortress (tGS pg 571)? Graendal's statement in the Prologue pre-dates the BA purges, that why we didn't know if Mesaana remained there or not after the fact.


There are other clues from previous books, of course, that Mesaana is Aes Sedai.

Somehow I doubt Mesaana is hidden as an Aes Sedai within the White Tower. The servants for example have their very own set of stairs & corridors within the White Tower to use to deliver goods & to use objects. Moiraine, Siuan, Yukiri, Seaine all have mentioned that the White Tower servants know more than most Aes Sedai believe they know, so why wouldn't Mesaana use the servants, workers and their own set of stairs as cover as well?


Can you not use the interview database? Or the WoT Wiki?

That database is not shown in the U.I. of Theoryland, if you didn't know. Terez has it listed somewhere offsite, I recalled. And yes I once read the whole database, but that was months ago. Besides I've never even heard of a WoT Wiki, let alone used it before. Generally I try rely the books, as even Terez has been known to say "I'm lazy, Budapest" when asked for any references about prior interviews. :rolleyes:


The point remains, we know that Mesaana remains in the White Tower going into ToM book because of Brandon's Q&A interview at that booksigning.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 04:44 AM
Egwene had a feeling. A premonition, perhaps. At the very least, a fear. These three names were the only ones who could have been the Forsaken. But none of them fit, not at all. That gave her a chill. Was Mesaana still hiding in the Tower?
If so, she somehow knew how to defeat the Oath Rod.
A soft knock came at her door. It cracked a moment later. "Mother?" Silviana asked.Egwene has a premonition about Mesaana, and who shows up immediately after?

Jokeslayer
11-10-2009, 05:10 AM
Egwene has a premonition about Mesaana, and who shows up immediately after?

Has any WoT mystery ever been so easily solved?

Terez
11-10-2009, 05:18 AM
Yay, I'm glad it's confirmed she's still in the Tower.

I really can't wait to get to work on the BS signing reports. I hate school!

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 05:50 AM
Has any WoT mystery ever been so easily solved?I do have to admit that it is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader. :p

Enigma
11-10-2009, 06:05 AM
I wonder how effective Mesaana will be in the WT without the Black Ajah to act as her agents? There is no doubt that she is very powerful as a channeler. Saying that the was most deadly by having the BA pull the strings behind the scenes.

I suppose she could still try to influence internal tower politics but she would have to be very careful in her use of compulsion. Short of going to kill key Aes Sedai I wonder what can she do for the shadow now.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 06:46 AM
The Forsaken have shown an ability to manipulate people other than Darkfriends quite well. Rahvin managed to wrap Andor around his finger through Morgase. So Mesaana doesn't need the Black Ajah. It just makes her job more difficult not having them. However, I think it is almost necessary that she be an Aes Sedai, and one with some sort of influence. A Novice, Accepted or servant would have a much harder time pulling strings without the outright use of compulsion.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 07:12 AM
In the Age Of Legends, Mesaana apparently managed fairly well despite not having the Black Ajah to obey her every command. So while they were useful dupes to her, I don't think they are an absolute necessity.

Enigma
11-10-2009, 10:21 AM
I agreed that most forsaken can use compulsion to further their own ends. The trouble is that its not so easy to use compulsion on a number of AS when they are surrounded by other Aes Sedai.

If you get them alone like Rahvin did to the Red sent to spy on Morgase he has no problems but in a group any odd behavour would be noticed. Even the master of compulsion Graendal can leave traces of her work as shown by Nynaeve.

Having heard that there was a forsaken in the Tower I would suspect Egwene would ge on the look out for any odd behavour and this will tie Mesaana's hands a bit.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 11:52 AM
I agreed that most forsaken can use compulsion to further their own ends. The trouble is that its not so easy to use compulsion on a number of AS when they are surrounded by other Aes Sedai.

If you get them alone like Rahvin did to the Red sent to spy on Morgase he has no problems but in a group any odd behavour would be noticed. Even the master of compulsion Graendal can leave traces of her work as shown by Nynaeve.

Having heard that there was a forsaken in the Tower I would suspect Egwene would ge on the look out for any odd behavour and this will tie Mesaana's hands a bit.

Exactly. So she's got to be someone with some direct influence on the events of the Tower. Aes Sedai aren't going to take direction or even give the time of day to a cook or a maid and it would take an impossibly clever novice or accepted to have the slightest impact on the events of the Tower, absent artificial means with communication.

That's why I say Mesaana has to be an Aes Sedai, there's no one left to take her orders, so she has to steer her plans by herself.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 12:16 PM
That's why I say Mesaana has to be an Aes Sedai, there's no one left to take her orders, so she has to steer her plans by herself.
Or she could be Laras, and just poison the lot of them.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 12:20 PM
Wouldn't that be a blast?
If on the evening before TG, the reunited Tower has Forkroot soup?

Weird Harold
11-10-2009, 12:57 PM
I agreed that most forsaken can use compulsion to further their own ends. The trouble is that its not so easy to use compulsion on a number of AS when they are surrounded by other Aes Sedai.

Moggy survived quite well surrounded by Aes Sedai posing as a servant. She didn't use "Compulsion" as such but she did use a similar weave to avoid actually having to work.

I think it is when she took over the remains of the Keystone Koven that she explained the advantage of posing as a servant.

However, Mesaana is NOT posing as a servant; her description when Shadar Haran unmasked her strongly suggests that she is simulating the ageless look with a minimal mask of mirrors and otherwise getting around without a physical disguise.

He clothing every time it has been revealed is not the clothing of a servant so she is posing either as an aes sedai or as one of the noble women who seek sanctuary in the Tower for whatever reason and Alviarin's almost recognition tips the evidence to Aes Sedai rather than Noblewoman.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Moggy survived quite well surrounded by Aes Sedai posing as a servant. She didn't use "Compulsion" as such but she did use a similar weave to avoid actually having to work.


But Moghedien had different goals than Mesaana did. She was trying to keep an eye on a group of darkfriends and make sure they sufficiently carried out pre-given orders while trying to gain an advantage for herself. When it actually came time to steer them she had to reveal herself.

Mesaana needs to exert influence on the White Tower. If she's posing as someone of low station, the best she can do is spy, and it seems like that can be done with something less than one of the few remaining Forsaken.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 01:11 PM
However, Mesaana is NOT posing as a servant; her description when Shadar Haran unmasked her strongly suggests that she is simulating the ageless look with a minimal mask of mirrors and otherwise getting around without a physical disguise.

He clothing every time it has been revealed is not the clothing of a servant
Pfft, this all applies to Laras perfectly well. Obviously Alviarin thought Mesaana looked familiar because all you'd have to do is add a hundred pounds to get Laras. And Laras has already been cited as getting too big for her britches after her promotion, so it wouldn't be at all surprising if she bought some sweet dresses. :D


EDIT: Forgot the most important point - Larasaana is a bitchin' name.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 01:19 PM
Pfft, this all applies to Laras perfectly well. Obviously Alviarin thought Mesaana looked familiar because all you'd have to do is add a hundred pounds to get Laras. And Laras has already been cited as getting too big for her britches after her promotion, so it wouldn't be at all surprising if she bought some sweet dresses. :D


EDIT: Forgot the most important point - Larasaana is a bitchin' name.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sold.

Weird Harold
11-10-2009, 02:04 PM
But Moghedien had different goals than Mesaana did.

That doesn't negate the fact that Moggy was able to pose as a servant and use the OP to actually avoid real work while surrounded by Aes Sedai means that using the OP to avoid responsibilities and questions is an option for Mesaana as well.

Mesaana isn't as pragmatic as Moggy and too status conscious to consider a long-term pose as a servant even if she doesn't actually have to do any work. But she doesn't have to worry about diverting attention from herself with the OP via "Compulsion" or some lesser "jedi mind trick."

Posing as Silviana/Mistress of Novices probably would present problems for avoiding any actual work, because she would have to use the OP on too many different people; it wouldn't be insurmountably more difficult and Mesaana might be arrogant enough to ignore the increased risk. I don't think she would make the extra effort, though.

Personally, my bet is on Dannelle, the dreamy brown who smuggled the "workmen" into the Tower just before Elaida's Coup.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Personally, my bet is on Dannelle, the dreamy brown who smuggled the "workmen" into the Tower just before Elaida's Coup.
I still don't like that one, but my only halfway strong evidence is that Alviarin passed Danelle in the hallway two seconds before she met Mesaana once.

Weird Harold
11-10-2009, 02:27 PM
I still don't like that one, but my only halfway strong evidence is that Alviarin passed Danelle in the hallway two seconds before she met Mesaana once.
There's a smidge more evidence than that; the lipp-tapping mannerism for example. I don't remember all of the little details offhand, but there is more than just passing in the hall right before Mesaana shows up -- more than once, IIRC.

bowlwoman
11-10-2009, 02:27 PM
I still don't like that one, but my only halfway strong evidence is that Alviarin passed Danelle in the hallway two seconds before she met Mesaana once.

Danelle is my personal favorite for Mesaana's alter ego, because she fits well with Mesaana's personality and clothing choices we've seen thus far (Brown Ajah, bronze clothing, etc). She also was instrumental in the coup without being overly involved, i.e. the workmen, and she hasn't been seen onscreen as Danelle since ACoS (I believe). Danelle is a young AS, with blue eyes, and she's pretty much a loner in the tower. I think it would be very good cover for Mesaana to be a newly raised AS in the Tower, and Danelle fits the bill perfectly. Not to mention Bela's evidence as well.

I know a lot of people/names have been tossed out and then forgotten throughout the series, but WHY haven't we seen Danelle in 5 books? I think it's more than just a dropped character issue, because she played such an instrumental role in the coup. I can't believe Elaida or Alviarin rewarded her service with a penance on a farm or something. :)

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 02:30 PM
That doesn't negate the fact that Moggy was able to pose as a servant and use the OP to actually avoid real work while surrounded by Aes Sedai means that using the OP to avoid responsibilities and questions is an option for Mesaana as well.


It's not a matter of doing chores, it's a matter of whether or not she can accomplish anything. She's not just hiding in the WT to save money on rent.

Personally, my bet is on Dannelle, the dreamy brown who smuggled the "workmen" into the Tower just before Elaida's Coup.

Mine too.

Weird Harold
11-10-2009, 02:40 PM
It's not a matter of doing chores, it's a matter of whether or not she can accomplish anything. She's not just hiding in the WT to save money on rent.



Mine too.
"Avoiding chores" for Mesaana would mean something like making naughty novices believe they've been caned strongly enough they manifest welts without Mesaana actually having to exert herself.

She could take a position of some authority and avoid all of the daily details required of that position by using the OP without worrying about being surrounded by Aes Sedai -- IOW, fear of discovery because she's tampering with the people around her isn't a big consideration for any of the female Forsaken.

bowlwoman
11-10-2009, 02:48 PM
She could take a position of some authority and avoid all of the daily details required of that position by using the OP without worrying about being surrounded by Aes Sedai -- IOW, fear of discovery because she's tampering with the people around her isn't a big consideration for any of the female Forsaken.

Overseeing the construction of Elaida's palace, perchance? She's already got experience dealing with the "workmen"...

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 02:59 PM
I think it would be very good cover for Mesaana to be a newly raised AS in the Tower, and Danelle fits the bill perfectly. Not to mention Bela's evidence as well.
Um, bowly one - you do realize that I was citing evidence against your theory? ;)

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-10-2009, 03:03 PM
I have never seen Laras = Mesaana for the pure fact she allowed/helped Siuan and Leane to leave. Why would she risk her situation, if she was Mesaana, by possible questioning or punishment if it were found she had helped them.

To me, that is the part that makes absolutely no sense. It cannot be her.

I agree the clothing she is seen wearing early in the books is too fine for Laras as well.

The only clue I have found it in the BWB (I think) which said M never cared about the "appearance" of power. She just wanted to be the one who actually ran things, even if covertly. Laras has no power other than what she might convince a random novice to do and direction of the BAs.

No...I think it is one of the Ajah heads who is NOT a Sitter.

Terez
11-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Can't be an Ajah Head, cause Mesaana ordered Alviarin to investigate their conspiracy, which confirmed that none of the Heads were Black, much less Mesaana.

bowlwoman
11-10-2009, 03:50 PM
Um, bowly one - you do realize that I was citing evidence against your theory? ;)

Well, no, actually, because I misread what you wrote. Anyone care to lash me with a wet noodle?

I just reread the Prologue to ACoS, and unless there's another instance of Danelle meeting Alviarin somewhere in the books, then they actually crossed paths more than 2 seconds before Alviarin entered her chambers. There would be ample time for Danelle!Mesaana to duck in an empty area and gateway into Alviarin's room. Or, she could have simply turned around and followed after Alviarin discreetly.

Besides, it's directly stated that Danelle was the only one of the AS who ignored Alviarin on her journey down from Elaida's apartment, so while that may be a big ol' fat red herring, it could also go to motive. She ignores Alviarin because what is going on in the WT with Elaida getting all powermongery doesn't concern her in the slightest. Fool children playing at being Aes Sedai!!!!!!!*rolling thunder, crashing lightning*

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 03:53 PM
Havn't we learned from Egween that Mesaana would have greatly benefited from posing as a Novice or Accepted? Think about it. Just like Egween, she would have had the freedom to go anywhere in the Tower while the Ajahs conducted their civil war and seperation. It would also fit with her M.O. of not caring about the perception of power, just the posession of it. Only problem I can see is that we don't really have many details about Tower Novices or Accepted.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Havn't we learned from Egween that Mesaana would have greatly benefited from posing as a Novice or Accepted? Think about it. Just like Egween, she would have had the freedom to go anywhere in the Tower while the Ajahs conducted their civil war and seperation. It would also fit with her M.O. of not caring about the perception of power, just the posession of it. Only problem I can see is that we don't really have many details about Tower Novices or Accepted.

But how is she going to wield any power as an Accepted or Novice and not draw attention to herself? Egwene didn't care about making a scene, that was her point. But if Mesaana had taken up as a novice, there'd be no way for anyone to take her opinion seriously, short of the use of Compulsion. A novice who kept sticking her nose in tower politics would occasion comment from the sisters, and they'd try to put her in her place.

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 04:08 PM
She doesn't have to wield Graendal-esque Compulsion, instead she could have used a lesser degree to "suggest" courses of action. She might have her victims believe that she was called in for a discussion or chores to cover up the act.

Yellowbeard
11-10-2009, 04:30 PM
any reason to rule out shevan as mesaana's disquise? i believe they have similar fashion likes, and shevan was elected to the tower hall right after the tower split.

she's also a brown, and mesaana was a researcher prior to joining the shadow.

i think it's either danelle or shevan...lean towards shevan though.

Terez
11-10-2009, 04:33 PM
Shevan supported negotiations.

nameless
11-10-2009, 05:45 PM
Laras cannot possibly be Mesaana. Illusion weave could make a thin woman look like a fat woman, but the disguise is purely visual, not tactile. Laras has given people hugs. Unless you think Mesaana is walking around with a bunch of pillows stuffed under her dress, she's not on the list of suspects.

Danelle is a very strong candidate, although I personally lean towards one of the librarians. They've been mentioned several times, usually in the context of how easy it is for people to forget they're even there.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 06:04 PM
Then Verin didn't know about her. Egwene specifically asked if Laras was a Darkfriend, and Verin said no. Plus I doubt Laras is going to give deadly tea to Verin without some questions.

Solmancer
11-10-2009, 06:05 PM
Two things have always struck me as odd concerning Danelle, both from The Shadow Rising, and always the biggest factors as to why I eyeball her as Mesaana's identity (not forgetting the workmen as well):

1) When Siuan is deposed, she is not aware of her Warder's death. This is later explained that shields and stilling can interfere with the bond, both in fuzzing and severing it completely, respectively. Being fully shielded could possibly allow for a delayed response to her Warder's death (and I can't believe she would have not noticed THAT).

2) Siuan never notices that she is shielded until she actually tries to channel when Elaida's delegation comes in. Yet when she does try, Danelle smirks at her as though knowing Siuan did just try to shield, something that (iirc) is usually sensed only by the one holding the shield. This, to me, suggests that Danelle had already shielded Siuan to keep her out of line, and was able to do so without being found out. There is no explicit mention of anyone holding saidar or actively holding a shield on Siuan. It's theoretically possible that Siuan was shielded without ever seeing it coming, literally.

Tree Brother
11-10-2009, 06:31 PM
How about this. When the tower is reunited, she changes her disguise from AS, to Accepted. Meaning, she was disguise as one of the AS who have vanished (meaning one of the black ajah, or suspected black ajah) and is now disguised as someone else.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 06:43 PM
How about this. When the tower is reunited, she changes her disguise from AS, to Accepted. Meaning, she was disguise as one of the AS who have vanished (meaning one of the black ajah, or suspected black ajah) and is now disguised as someone else.

I still can't see it. With her lackeys gone, she'd need to increase her influence, not take a lower profile persona.

Blue Nine
11-10-2009, 07:55 PM
If we accept the eventuality that she is posing as Danelle, then there is a very real possibility that she remained as Danelle and we simply didn't see her. Considering how many plot lines were absent from TGS, this isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 08:09 PM
I have never seen Laras = Mesaana for the pure fact she allowed/helped Siuan and Leane to leave. Why would she risk her situation, if she was Mesaana, by possible questioning or punishment if it were found she had helped them.
It actually makes perfect sense if you think about it - Siuan and Leane would have made perfect figureheads around which the rebellion could align. Of course it didn't exactly turn out that way, but they would be far more effective at dividing the Tower alive than dead. :D

Icarium
11-10-2009, 08:22 PM
It actually makes perfect sense if you think about it - Siuan and Leane would have made perfect figureheads around which the rebellion could align. Of course it didn't exactly turn out that way, but they would be far more effective at dividing the Tower alive than dead. :D

Yes, helping Siuan and Leane escape and trying to do the same for Egwene is actually the biggest argument for Larasana, not against it. Assuming Laras is Mesaana she was sowing chaos way before the order came. ;)

I still can't see it. With her lackeys gone, she'd need to increase her influence, not take a lower profile persona.

There isn't necessarily a correlation between the obvious status in the WT and the actual influence. Most AS are deeply stupid, with a bit of Compulsion it should be a piece of cake to manipulate a lot of them into whatever direction Mesaana wants, as long it has to do with Tower politics and not outright help for the DO. Of course, this assumes Mesaana has half a brain which after seeing the exploits of some of the other Forsaken is by no means a given.

nameless
11-10-2009, 11:45 PM
Trying to influence Aes Sedai as a novice got Egwene severely punished more than once. Most Aes Sedai didn't start to respect her opinions until they became impressed by her ability to withstand repeated beatings. Does anyone really believe Mesaana would be willing to take that route?

edit- If she's using Compulsion rather than logic to influence them this becomes less of an issue, but Compulsion carries its own risks. If anyone delved one of her victims the whole Tower would be on alert. Seems like a lot of trouble to accomplish something she could do just as well by simply ordering one of the 200+ Black Ajah sisters.

Frenzy
11-11-2009, 12:25 AM
"I am not a darkfriend."

"I am not of the Black Ajah."

Mesaana could say both of those phrases while sealed by the Oath Rod.

The question is: would she risk using the Binder and swearing the three oaths to keep herself hidden?

Belazamon
11-11-2009, 12:38 AM
The question is: would she risk using the Binder and swearing the three oaths to keep herself hidden?
Precisely. Is she, after all, a common criminal?

nameless
11-11-2009, 01:33 AM
Depends on how confident she was of her ability to get her hands on it and release the Oaths later on. If she stuck an inverted Finder weave to it while she was swearing she could easily recover it no matter what security measure Egwene puts in place.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 04:57 AM
It actually makes perfect sense if you think about it - Siuan and Leane would have made perfect figureheads around which the rebellion could align.Apart from having been stilled. Which, when dealing with AS, is a rather important issue.

Terez
11-11-2009, 05:02 AM
"I am not a darkfriend."

"I am not of the Black Ajah."

Mesaana could say both of those phrases while sealed by the Oath Rod.

The question is: would she risk using the Binder and swearing the three oaths to keep herself hidden?
I'm sure she wouldn't have any problem getting hold of the Oath Rod to unswear herself after - even if she had to do it in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Bonzi77
11-11-2009, 06:39 AM
"I am not a darkfriend."

"I am not of the Black Ajah."

Mesaana could say both of those phrases while sealed by the Oath Rod.

The question is: would she risk using the Binder and swearing the three oaths to keep herself hidden?

Or perhaps she knows a way to say the oaths on the rod without having them stick. Could be a relatively simple inverted weave.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 07:08 AM
I doubt it, since Semirhage's reason for running off to the Pit of Doom was avoiding having to swear on an Oath Rod. If she could have gotten out of it that easily, then she would not have needed to turn to the Shadow at all.

Bonzi77
11-11-2009, 07:32 AM
I doubt it, since Semirhage's reason for running off to the Pit of Doom was avoiding having to swear on an Oath Rod. If she could have gotten out of it that easily, then she would not have needed to turn to the Shadow at all.

But that was in the Age of Legends when the people trying to bind her would have been wise to whatever trick she tried to pull.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 07:45 AM
Well, shielding her, channeling a bit of Spirit into the OR and then making her swear would be fairly fool proof. Since that's the procedure they have developed, it would seem as though the Third Agers aren't all that easily tricked in this case.

amazinglarry
11-11-2009, 09:07 AM
"I am not a darkfriend."

"I am not of the Black Ajah."

Mesaana could say both of those phrases while sealed by the Oath Rod.

The question is: would she risk using the Binder and swearing the three oaths to keep herself hidden?


The Black Ajah oath, sure, but I kind of doubt Mesaana could swear that she's not a DF. Aren't the Forsaken pretty much the ultimate DFs? I suppose she could convince herself that she's in a different class than lowly DFs (purely a semantic argument) so maybe.

What about her age? Could she even survive binding? As far as I know we don't know exactly how old she was when the was imprisoned, but we know from the LoC prologue that she lived >300 years in the AoL. So the possibility of dropping dead upon oath rod use is at least worth considering.

amazinglarry

Terez
11-11-2009, 09:19 AM
The Black Ajah oath, sure, but I kind of doubt Mesaana could swear that she's not a DF. Aren't the Forsaken pretty much the ultimate DFs? I suppose she could convince herself that she's in a different class than lowly DFs (purely a semantic argument) so maybe.
There's a Lanfear quote, showing she doesn't consider herself to be a Darkfriend.

As for the age thing - there's nothing really to suggest that binding would cause death for someone who is older. I think it cuts the remaining lifespan, rather than assigning a specific lifespan.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2009, 09:23 AM
As for the age thing - there's nothing really to suggest that binding would cause death for someone who is older. I think it cuts the remaining lifespan, rather than assigning a specific lifespan.I think so too, and I am brave enough to let someone who is old enough to make this issue relevant try it. :D

Terez
11-11-2009, 09:28 AM
Well, Mesaana would know. She definitely wouldn't risk the Oaths if it was going to make her drop dead.

Bonzi77
11-11-2009, 11:15 AM
I have a new theory for the identity of Mesaana. Forgive me if this is not original, but I did a search and came up with none of them.

Mesaana is: Juilaine Madome.

Evidence: She's tall (as is Mesaana) and pretty which would work for Mesaana's ego. She's young so she'd have less backstory to absorb.

She was one of the ones that was raised as sitter after the tower split despite being too young to fit the mold. It seems odd to me that she would have been raised (even as a stopgap) despite having no allies in the Ajah. I'll try to find some quotes when I get home. Initial thoughts?

My source on this info is Camel's database.

EDITED to correct factual error.

Terez
11-11-2009, 05:33 PM
sooooo.....how did Mesaana know about the rebel Hall meeting in Tel'aran'rhiod? Seems there's an easy answer to that question - she could have spied on them, or she could know through Delana or Moira. But if she found out either of those ways, she wouldn't have had to ask Sheriam how they got there:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 25 - In Darkness

"Egwene al'Vere. She must be deposed."

"What?" Sheriam asked, startled. A switch of Air cracked against her back, and it burned. Fool! Did she want to get herself killed? "My apologies, Great Mistress," she said quickly. "Forgive my outburst. But it was by orders from one of the Chosen that I helped raise her as Amyrlin in the first place!"

"Yes, but she has proven to have been a . . . poor choice. We needed a child, not a woman with merely the face of a child. She must be removed. You will make certain this group of foolish rebels stops supporting her. And end those blasted meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod. How is it so many of you get there?"

"We have ter'angreal," Sheriam said, hesitantly. "Several in the shape of an amber plaque, several others in the shape of an iron disc. Then a handful of rings."

"Ah, sleep weavers," the figure said. "Yes, those could be useful. How many?"

Sheriam hesitated. Her first instinct was to lie or hedge—this seemed like information she could hold over the figure. But lying to one of the Chosen? A poor choice. "We had twenty," Sheriam said truthfully. "But one was with the woman Leane, who was captured. That leaves us with nineteen." Just enough for Egwene's meetings in the World of Dreams— one for each of the Sitters and one for Sheriam herself.
Delana or Moira could have told her as much, and if she was spying on them in Tel'aran'rhiod, she would have known by the misty appearance that they were using training ter'angreal. There might be a clue here, if Egwene mentioned those meetings in the presence of any Tower Aes Sedai. But the only mentions I can think of were sideways mentions.

Marie Curie 7
11-11-2009, 10:48 PM
sooooo.....how did Mesaana know about the rebel Hall meeting in Tel'aran'rhiod? Seems there's an easy answer to that question - she could have spied on them, or she could know through Delana or Moira. But if she found out either of those ways, she wouldn't have had to ask Sheriam how they got there:

Aran'gar was the one who told Mesaana about the first meeting that Egwene called of the rebel Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod. As of the start of TGS, Egwene had been captive for nine days, and the first meeting of the Hall was the night after her capture.

Delana and Aran'gar fled the rebel camp nine days after Egwene's capture, so that event happened in sync with the first Egwene chapters in TGS (the same day that Egwene first attended Elaida). So, I just assumed that Aran'gar had continued spying on the rebel Hall's meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod during that time, and she passed the information to Mesaana, or else Mesaana asked her. And presumably, Mesaana didn't have the details from Aran'gar, so she had to go to Sheriam or one of the other Blacks for that.

Marie Curie 7
11-11-2009, 11:54 PM
I have a new theory for the identity of Mesaana. Forgive me if this is not original, but I did a search and came up with none of them.

Mesaana is: Juilaine Madome.

Evidence: She's tall (as is Mesaana) and pretty which would work for Mesaana's ego. She's young so she'd have less backstory to absorb.

She was one of the ones that was raised as sitter after the tower split despite being too young to fit the mold. It seems odd to me that she would have been raised (even as a stopgap) despite having no allies in the Ajah. I'll try to find some quotes when I get home. Initial thoughts?

Well, Juilaine was thought to be too young to be a Sitter, but the only specific information we have is that she has worn the shawl for less than 70 years. So, she could still have decades of interactions in the Tower that would need to be covered. Also, the BWB states that Mesaana is of average height, not tall (see below). And I'm not sure why you said that Juilaine has no allies in the Ajah.

Danelle still seems a more likely option to me. Consider the description of Mesaana as "dreamy" and introspective from the BWB:

TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 6 - The Female Forsaken and the Darkfriends

Unlike Semirhage, or Graendal, the Chosen called Mesaana turned to the Dark Lord because she was not the best at her profession. A woman of average height and appearance, Saine Tarasind was hardheaded, practical and intelligent, though often taken for being dreamy because of her introspection. It has been said that she was always interested in real power, not the appearance of it. Appearances were never important to her. She wanted desperately to be a successful researcher. She spent her youth working toward that goal, aiming for the cutting edge of exploration. But her dreams were shattered when she was denied a place at Collam Daan. The board labeled her "unsuited for research," but agreed to allow her to instruct students.

And now consider one of the descriptions of Danelle:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 47 - The Truth of a Viewing

Today she was examining lists of kitchen purchases, and the mason's report on an addition to the library. The sheer number of petty peculations people thought they could slip by always amazed her. So did the number that escaped notice by the women who oversaw these matters. For instance, Laras seemed to think watching accounts was beneath her since her title had been changed officially from simple chief cook to Mistress of the Kitchens. Danelle, on the other hand, the young Brown sister who was supposed to be watching Master Jovarin, the mason, was most likely letting herself be distracted by the books the fellow kept finding for her. That was the only way to explain her failure to question the number of workmen Jovarin claimed to have hired, with the first shipments of stone from Kandor just arriving at North harbor. He could rebuild the entire library with that many men. Danelle was simply too dreamy, even for a Brown. Perhaps a little time on a farm working penance would wake her. Laras would be more difficult to discipline; she was not Aes Sedai, so her authority with undercooks and scullions and potboys could be swamped all too easily. But perhaps she, too, could be sent for a "rest" in the country. That would...

From this we learn that Danelle is actually young (meaning: relativetly recently raised to the shawl, although apparently she's worn the shawl long enough to attain the ageless look, if that is what Mesaana is copying as part of her disguise), rather than just a too-young Sitter, so there would be less backstory for Mesaana to have to cover if she were posing as Danelle. And Danelle is dreamy, like Mesaana.

Another description:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall

"There is apparently something happening in Shienar." That was Danelle, slight and often seemingly lost in a dream, the only Brown sister present. Green and Yellow also had only one sister apiece, and none of the three Ajahs was pleased about that. There were no Blues. Now Danelle's big blue eyes looked thoughtfully inward; an unnoticed ink stain smudge stained her cheek, and her dark gray wool dress was rumpled. "There are rumors of skirmishes. Not with Trollocs, and not Aiel, though raids through the Niamh Passes appear to have increased. Between Shienarans. Unusual for the Borderlands. They rarely fight each other."

Again, we get the dreamy characteristic from Danelle, and also she looks introspective, just like the description of Mesaana in the BWB. And she's got an ink stain and a rumpled dress, which fits with the BWB characterization of Mesaana as not caring about appearances - perfect for a Brown. Here we also learn that Danelle has big blue eyes, and we know that Mesaana has big blue eyes:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens

Mesaana's big blue eyes narrowed. They were her best feature, yet only ordinary when she frowned. "Why do you want to know? So you can 'rescue' her yourself? I won't tell you."

Finally, we know that Danelle is a friendless Brown, which, along with Danelle's youth, would make it easier for Mesaana to pose as her (not much backstory to cover, no friends to fool):

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings

Alviarin finally left Elaida's apartments, as cool and collected as ever on the surface. Inside, she felt wrung out like a damp cloth. She managed to keep her legs steady down the long curving flights of stairs, marble even in the very heights. Liveried servants bowed and curtsied as they scurried about their tasks, seeing only the Keeper in all her Aes Sedai serenity. As she went lower, sisters began to appear, many wearing their shawls, fringed in the colors of their Ajahs, as if to emphasize by formality that they were full sisters. They eyed her as she passed, uneasy often as not. The only one to ignore her was Danelle, a dreamy Brown sister. She had been part of bringing down Siuan Sanche and raising Elaida, but lost in her own thoughts, a solitary with no friends even in her own Ajah, she seemed unaware that she had been shoved aside. Others were all too aware. Berisha, a lean and hard-eyed Gray, and Kera, with the fair hair and blue eyes that appeared occasionally among Tairens and all the arrogance so common to Greens, went so far as to curtsy. Norine made as if to, then did not; big-eyed and nearly as dreamy as Danelle at times, and as friendless, she resented Alviarin; if the Keeper came from the White, in her eyes it should have been Norine Dovarna.

The physical description of Danelle, particularly the blue eyes and her dreamy and introspective mannerisms, seems to fit Mesaana better than the other candidates, in my opinion. Danelle's background as a young sister with no friends also provides an excellent candidate for Mesaana's alias.

Along with the physical description, we know that Danelle played a role in deposing Siuan, though not a primary one. She had soldiers disguised as masons brought into the Tower during the coup, and she was with the group that took Siuan after she was deposed by the Hall. Later, Danelle was seen in meetings with Elaida, as one of her 'council' - perhaps a good place for Mesaana to be if she wanted some direct knowledge of Elaida's plans.

The viability of Danelle as Mesaana has certainly been rehashed many times, but since it has come up again, I thought I would put all this here so that it would be fresh for everyone.

There's also the information we got from Alviarin when Mesaana was partially unmasked by Shaidar Haran. Alviarin saw a bronze silk dress with black trim, and a face that she almost recognized (as if Mesaana in disguise was simply creating the illusion of an ageless face, for example), which leads to the conclusion that Mesaana is likely to be masquerading as an Aes Sedai. In the TGS prologue, Graendal's thoughts revealed that she believed that Mesaana had been posing as an Aes Sedai in the Tower, perhaps further corroboration of Mesaana's disguise.

Finally, we have the interview comments that RJ gave about Mesaana: that we have seen her alter ego in the books, and that we should be able to figure out who she is (with the caveat, of course, that this might be one of those things that is intuitively obvious to the casual observer).

If I left anything out of the Danelle is Mesaana argument, please add it in...

Neilbert
11-12-2009, 02:17 AM
Where is Danelle now?

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 03:08 AM
I only read the first page of posts, so this may have been said before.

Let's say Mesaana HAS been posing as an Aes Sedai. I see some time conflicts with this, unless she is using a disguise to make her look like a REAL Aes Sedai (a specific one), whether they be dead, or not in the WT, or whatever. Mesaana has only been freed from the prison for what? Not quite two years maybe?

I would find it hard to believe that you could infiltrate the WT posing as an Aes Sedai with only 2 years time if you didn't pose as a specific sister that they already knew. She couldn't have come to the Tower posing as a novice, working her way up and gaining the shawl in that time, that would have been remarked big time in the books, since it is unheard of save for Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne.

I also don't see any way you could simply "slip in" and essentially make up a name or a story why you were gone from the Tower, etc, etc. People would know if you were lying simply because no one would know you. The White Tower isn't exactly some busy airport where random strangers and unknowns (that also happen to be Aes Sedai) wander through all the time. Every single sister is heavily "documented" with a detailed history, from the time they were a novice, at least in the minds and memories of the Aes Sedai. You can't just walk in as a random Aes Sedai and expect it to be in the clear when NOBODY knows who the hell you are.

Because of these reasons, I don't see any realistic way Mesaana could be successfully posing as an Aes Sedai unless her disguise makes her look like a specific Aes Sedai that is known. Now if THAT is the case, you still have some issues with credibility in BEING that person, as far as the AS who knew the person you're "copying" go.

I've always assumed Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai, but after looking at it like this, it seems almost more likely that she simply is a noblewoman of some sort or something similar. Hell, maybe she DIDN'T copy someone's looks with a disguise and simply was "okayed" by Black Ajah in the Tower, by them essentially playing the game as it had to be played, telling people some of the history of "Her," with some crazy ass story of her not being in the Tower much, etc, etc. Basically making it seem like coincidence that EACH AND EVERY other sister (non-black that aren't in on it) have no idea who she is. Because they do. (BA) Still might be near impossible if not outright impossible due to Sitters, certain AS, etc that would almost HAVE to remember her by way of the Tests and other things.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2009, 05:52 AM
Where is Danelle now?She hasn't been mentioned for quite a while. The last mention was the one in aCoS, which is quoted above.

Terez
11-12-2009, 09:23 AM
I only read the first page of posts, so this may have been said before.
You should probably read more.

Hell, maybe she DIDN'T copy someone's looks with a disguise and simply was "okayed" by Black Ajah in the Tower, by them essentially playing the game as it had to be played, telling people some of the history of "Her," with some crazy ass story of her not being in the Tower much, etc, etc.
That's impossible, as all Aes Sedai have to know each Aes Sedai, and how long they were novice/Accepted, to know who defers to who. Also, Alviarin doesn't know who she is, so it's doubtful anyone else does either.

Belazamon
11-12-2009, 05:14 PM
Apart from having been stilled. Which, when dealing with AS, is a rather important issue.
Perhaps "rallying point" would have been a better phrase, I concede.

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 05:44 PM
That's impossible, as all Aes Sedai have to know each Aes Sedai, and how long they were novice/Accepted, to know who defers to who. Also, Alviarin doesn't know who she is, so it's doubtful anyone else does either.

So basically you're with me on this one, thinking that the only way that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai in the Tower has to be as a disguise copying a specific Aes Sedai?

Terez
11-12-2009, 07:42 PM
Yup. Would have to be something like Mad Eye Moody. :) Though Mesaana doesn't necessarily have the Aes Sedai in question locked up in a trunk...

Matoyak
11-12-2009, 07:57 PM
Yup. Would have to be something like Mad Eye Moody. :) Though Mesaana doesn't necessarily have the Aes Sedai in question locked up in a trunk...Though that would get her bonus points for the roleplaying. Or...hmmm. Would it have been Moody roleplaying Mesaana? I mean, WoT came first...but that part of the story hasn't even really come out fully even now...hmmmmmmm...

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2009, 03:34 AM
Maybe Mesaana is Mad Eye Reborn?
Perhaps "rallying point" would have been a better phrase, I concede.I haven't really noticed all that much rallying around Siuan and Leane, though. Especially not by Aes Sedai, who think that any woman who can't channel is less smart than a child (novice), and seem to automatically make that assumption even for one that has had the abilty to channel.

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:07 AM
A guy from the MySpace WoT group (I think) PM'd me on Facebook, saying he thought Mesaana was Nicola, because of the white dress in the prologue, and the dark hair. I wrote him back and explained the reasons I thought Nicola unlikely (primarily that she was with the rebels for so long, and also....why would she be hanging out with Moghedien?) but the white dress could definitely be a clue (we've discussed it before, but I figured I'd bring it up again). The Brown dress before was taken to mean that she was Brown Ajah, but it's really only recently that Aes Sedai in the Tower have taken to wearing Ajah colors all the time. So perhaps she is posing as a White? The 'no embroidery' and 'no jewelery' might point to a novice (easier to pull off than impersonating an Aes Sedai) but that theory has its own problems, not least that we're not really familiar with any Tower novices, and RJ said we should be able to figure out who she is.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2009, 11:10 AM
Another big problem is that the AS probably do know the novices and accepted. And they know each other too. There aren't all that many of them, after all. At least, there weren't too many until very recently.

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:18 AM
Well, Mesaana could have come to the Tower as a new novice, so that's not really a problem.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-13-2009, 01:52 PM
That's impossible, as all Aes Sedai have to know each Aes Sedai, and how long they were novice/Accepted, to know who defers to who. Also, Alviarin doesn't know who she is, so it's doubtful anyone else does either.

Alviarin disagrees:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings
The logic was clear, and stunning. Mesaana hid herself because she might be recognized. She must reside in the Tower itself. On the face of it, that seemed impossible, yet nothing else fit. Given that, she must be one of the sisters; surely she was not among servants, bound to labor and sweat. But who? Too many women had been out of the Tower for years before Elaida's summons, too many had no close friends, or none at all. Mesaana must be one of those. Alviarin very much wanted to know. Even if she could make no use of it, knowledge was power.

Toss the dice
11-13-2009, 01:59 PM
Having no AS friends or even being out of the Tower for years is a far cry from other sisters not knowing who you are. You can't just walk into the White Tower one day with the ability to channel and claim to be Aes Sedai. Hell, any wilder could just come in like that and claim to be Aes Sedai. Steal a serpent ring from somewhere, maybe some other clothing, and you'd be golden, at least until a slip gives you away, most likely from lack of information.

No, it seems very likely that a new sister arriving that NOBODY knows would be remarked upon. Sisters would start asking questions, looking into it more after a short time. There's only 1 White Tower, and all Aes Sedai go through that institution, with all of the trimmings like advancement, Testings, and order.

Terez
11-13-2009, 02:06 PM
Alviarin disagrees:
Nah, she's just assuming that these lesser-known sisters would be easier to imitate.

Enigma
11-13-2009, 02:13 PM
One other factor in favour of Danelle is that after the coup she was edged out of a postition of power but did not seem to mind. I believe it was Alviarin who commented on this.

Now it strikes me that if I was a young sitter and I went along with a plan to oust a sitting Amrylin I would have to be pretty ambitious. Thats a high risk game to get invovled with. Some of the sisters who came to arrest Siuan looked nervous and with some cause. If the plan works you are top of the food chain in the new management, but if it fails you are facing at the very least a very hard penance if not outright trial, birching, severing and then possibly execution.

My point is that one would have to be ambitious to get invovled in that sort of thing but by all accounts the other AS tried to keep hold of the reins of power after Elaida was raised but Danelle who invested as much in the probject as anyone was content to be shoved aside and slip back into obscurity.

That does not make a lot of sense unless Danelle was not interested in being on the ruling council pre Elaida's dismissing them because she was pulling the strings in the background as a forsaken and did not need to be visibly part of the new management.

Yuri33
11-13-2009, 03:14 PM
No way it can be Nicola:

1) I believe there's an BS quote saying Mesaana is a sister.

2) She was sworn on the Oath Rod (yes, she could technically sidestep this with careful wording)

3) She faithfully delivered the BA hunters' message to Egwene

4) She warned Egwene of the Seanchan attack, allowed herself to be linked to Egwene, and subsequently helped others learn to link and fight back as well.

Mesaana could be a White sister, but what White sister from earlier in the books sticks out?

Terez
11-13-2009, 03:18 PM
I can't think of any. Here's a list (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/aes_sedai/white.html). The only ones that stick out were either not in the Tower, or known Blacks. Or Seaine and Ferane, both of whom we know can't be Mesaana.

Belazamon
11-13-2009, 07:17 PM
I haven't really noticed all that much rallying around Siuan and Leane, though. Especially not by Aes Sedai, who think that any woman who can't channel is less smart than a child (novice), and seem to automatically make that assumption even for one that has had the abilty to channel.
That's why I said it didn't exactly work out that way. ;) At any rate, executing the former "treasonous" Amyrlin would have lent Elaida's faction a lot more authenticity in the eyes of the nations, I have no doubt.

Terez
11-21-2009, 07:10 PM
For those who are interested in Mesaana's alter ego...WSB sent me a text file of a bunch of old interviews, some of which were missing from the web, and there have been a few nuggets in them that are interesting. This is one:

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NYC 7 January 2003 - WinespringBrother reporting (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Jan._7_NYC_Barnes_and_Noble,_Ted_Herman_report)

Q: Who is Mesaana?
RJ: Who is Mesaana? Think! You have enough evidence to know that by now, I would suspect, and you certainly will have enough after reading Crossroads of Twilight.

We already had a quote saying we should be able to figure it out before Crossroads, but not one saying that there was any information in Crossroads itself that was supposed to be particularly helpful. For the Danelle fans, this is the book where the 'elaborate bands of bronze' were seen, on Mesaana's green skirt.

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2009, 03:55 AM
Thanks to a trick of the light, I read that at first as: "Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NYC 7 January 2003". Which raises the obvious question: does Mesaana sparkle? :p

And yes, that quote has been used quite often to support the Danelle idea. A pity that it never seems enough to actually settle the issue. Especially not since Alviarin definitely would recognise Danelle, so when she sees Mesaana's face, she should have been able to know instantly who it was. Unless of course the Danelle face is also produced with the Mirror of Mist.

Terez
11-22-2009, 05:04 AM
Well, whatever face she's using, it's produced with Illusion, because she's posing as an Aes Sedai. It would have been impossible for her to just pretend to be an Aes Sedai without Compelling the entire Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2009, 05:25 AM
Perhaps she's using Botox?

Oatman
11-22-2009, 06:43 AM
This might be a dumb question, but it's the one thing I wonder every time this topic comes up. Is it actually possible to make channeling ability seem less, or is it an all or nothing thing?
I have always been under the impression it was all or nothing which would mean Mesaana couldn't be masquerading as an AS. Of course, I am usually proven wrong about this stuff.

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2009, 07:34 AM
This might be a dumb question, but it's the one thing I wonder every time this topic comes up. Is it actually possible to make channeling ability seem less, or is it an all or nothing thing?RAFO. You're definitely not the first one to ask that question.

I have always been under the impression it was all or nothing which would mean Mesaana couldn't be masquerading as an AS. Of course, I am usually proven wrong about this stuff.'Usually' is not quite good enough, though. It would help if you managed to always be wrong.

Weird Harold
11-22-2009, 12:28 PM
This might be a dumb question, but it's the one thing I wonder every time this topic comes up. Is it actually possible to make channeling ability seem less, or is it an all or nothing thing?
I have always been under the impression it was all or nothing which would mean Mesaana couldn't be masquerading as an AS. Of course, I am usually proven wrong about this stuff.
Check Terez' signature link: RJ said that the ability can be partially masked -- so Mesaana could impersonate Morgase or Sorilea if she wanted to.

Terez
11-22-2009, 02:14 PM
The Path of Daggers book tour 20 November 1998, Washington DC - John Nowacki reporting (http://linuxmafia.com/%7Epam/POD_signings.html#la)


RJ said that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the Aes Sedai don't even know these tricks are possible.
I just happened to have that page open as I was editing it. So you don't have to RAFO.

Trutino
11-22-2009, 03:35 PM
I know that a lot of these arguments have been made, but I thought I would try to bring them together, combined with some new information we have.

Mesaana has really been quite sloppy in her visits with Alviarin. Assuming she can mask her strength:

The Path of Daggers book tour 20 November 1998, Washington DC - John Nowacki reporting:

RJ said that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the Aes Sedai don't even know these tricks are possible.

Only a few people know how to do this, none of them are Aes Sedai. It is logical that the people who know are Forsaken.

Note: RJ had said RAFO a month earilier.

OK, so Alviarin concludes that Mesaana is posing as a channeler because she masks her ability completely in their meetings and Brandon seems to confirm that Mesaana is in the Tower posing as an Aes Sedai:


The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?
A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.
Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.

So why is Mesaana sloppy? She is more powerful than any Aes Sedai and is closeish in strength only with Egwene, Nyn, etc. Since we know from the above that she is posing as an Aes Sedai, if she couldn't mask her strength, she would stand out as unusually strong. She must be masking her strength. Now, she could have appeared to Alviarin as her normal strength and Alviarin would have assumed that she was not in the tower and off doing something like Graendal, who she had also already met. Instead, Mesaana hides her strength completely which makes Alviarin suspicious. Sloppy.

She also is so-so at hiding her appearance when she meets Alviarin. Alviarin notes her lack of ability here. This means that she is posing as someone similar in appearance to her. This is where the blue eyes are key. According to the encyclopedia, these Aes Sedai who remained in the Tower have blue eyes:

Kera (Green)
Tarna (Red)
Danelle (Brown)
Seaine (White)
Melare (Red)
Nesita (Red/Black)

She is not Nesita or Seaine. Seaine is a Black Ajah hunter and Shaidar Haran told Mesaana that he didn't want the Black Ajah destroyed. Nesita was revealed as Black Ajah. She must be Kera, Tarna, Danelle, or Melare. She is not Melare or Tarna since they are part of Pevara's group at the Black Tower. Unless Mesaana is Kera, who we have not seen much at all, she is Danelle. Since RJ said we really should be able to figure it out, it is more likely to be someone we've seen more than once. We don't even need to know that Danelle is friendless or that Mesaana often dresses in bronze to conclude this.

Anyway, just a thought! Could be completely wrong. :)

Terez
11-23-2009, 01:47 AM
That seems to be a pretty definitive way of putting it, unless you're missing Tower sisters with blue eyes somehow. Almost disappointingly definitive...

Spasmodean
11-23-2009, 04:25 AM
That seems to be a pretty definitive way of putting it, unless you're missing Tower sisters with blue eyes somehow. Almost disappointingly definitive...

Not everything has to be a mystery wrapped in an enigma tied up in a puzzle :P

I thought Mesaana's identity has always been one of the more straightforward ones to figure out.

If only Demandred's was more intuiutive :(

Toss the dice
11-23-2009, 12:33 PM
So why is Mesaana sloppy? She is more powerful than any Aes Sedai and is closeish in strength only with Egwene, Nyn, etc. Since we know from the above that she is posing as an Aes Sedai, if she couldn't mask her strength, she would stand out as unusually strong. She must be masking her strength. Now, she could have appeared to Alviarin as her normal strength and Alviarin would have assumed that she was not in the tower and off doing something like Graendal, who she had also already met. Instead, Mesaana hides her strength completely which makes Alviarin suspicious. Sloppy.

Of the female Forsaken, I have always lumped Moghedien and Mesaana together as potentially the weakest of the bunch, with the next step up being Semirhage and Graendal. Lanfear being #1. I am going off original Forsaken with original power, I won't add Cyndane, etc into it.

If Moghedien and Mesaana are very close to one another, that would put Mesaana's strength right around Nynaeve's since Moggy and Nyn are tied. Does anyone know of any relatively hard proof of the ranks in power of the female Forsaken, other than Lanfear being a clear #1? And how close they are to each other?

In a SORT of related note, this would be my rough list on strength in the Power among the Forsaken:

1. Ishamael
2-4. Demandred, Sammael, Rahvin
5. Lanfear
6-8. Be'lal, Aginor, Balthamel
9. Semirhage
10. Graendal
11. Asmodean
12. Mesaana
13. Moghedien

Lots of room and evidence (from what I know) for most all of them but Ishamael to move and switch places with others. Some "evidence" points to Lanfear being 2nd only to Ishamael, while others hints that other men besides Ishamael could very well be stronger in raw power than Lanfear, and she is simply the strongest woman. I could easily see Asmodean being above all women save Lanfear in raw power alone simply because he is a man, and his "weakness" never really directly implied his raw strength that I can remember. These are only 2 of the many such cases. Anyone?

kcf
11-23-2009, 12:56 PM
over at RAFO.com, Etzel and I came up with who I think is currently the best candidate for Mesaana.

Mesaana is Norine Dovarna: "Big-eyed and nearly as dreamy as Danelle at times, and as friendless, she resented Alviarin; if the Keeper came from the White, in her eyes it should have been Norine Dovarna." (ACoS, prologue)

That she doesn't have friends, doesn't like Alviarin (maybe just to avoid contact), is dreamy (to hide discrepancies to the real Norine?) and her striking eyes could point to Mesaana.

The only problem is that Alviarin knows Norine and should normally already have figured out why Mesaana's appearance and voice seem familiar to her (if Messana looks and sounds a bit like Norine). On the other hand, Alviarin maybe has other things in her head with SH's orders and Silviana's punishments.

There is also one other scene with her & Alviarin in KoD:

“You’d grimace too, Ramesa, if you were being strapped every morning before breakfast,” Norine said, much too loudly and plainly meaning for Alviarin to hear. Ramesa, a tall slender woman with silver bells sewn down the sleeves of her white-embroidered dress, looked startled at being addressed, and likely she was. Norine had few friends, perhaps none. She went on, cutting her eyes toward Alviarin to see whether she had noticed. “It is irrational to call a penance private and pretend nothing is happening when the Amyrlin Seat has imposed it. But then, her rationality has always been overrated, in my opinion.” (KoD, prologue)

Maybe Mesaana is testing, if Alviarin has recognized her.

Egwene also notices Norine guarding Leane in KoD, ch.24:
"Norine, lovely with her large liquid eyes but often as vague as any Brown."

The comparison to the Brown could be another clue pointing to Mesaana. It also makes sense that Mesaana would be vague, because she doesn't want to slip.

So Norine being Mesaana is my bet for the moment.

Weird Harold
11-23-2009, 01:19 PM
If Moghedien and Mesaana are very close to one another, that would put Mesaana's strength right around Nynaeve's since Moggy and Nyn are tied.

Nyneave's standoff with Moghedien was early inNyneave's development in the OP. She's much closer to her potential now than whenshe faced off with Moggy.

Rand matched Asmodean erg for erg when they fought over the CK Key in Rhuidean, just as Nyneave matched Moggy; does that mean Rand is still exactly matched with the weakest male Forsaken?

Marie Curie 7
11-23-2009, 02:11 PM
She also is so-so at hiding her appearance when she meets Alviarin. Alviarin notes her lack of ability here. This means that she is posing as someone similar in appearance to her. This is where the blue eyes are key. According to the encyclopedia, these Aes Sedai who remained in the Tower have blue eyes:

Kera (Green)
Tarna (Red)
Danelle (Brown)
Seaine (White)
Melare (Red)
Nesita (Red/Black)

She is not Nesita or Seaine. Seaine is a Black Ajah hunter and Shaidar Haran told Mesaana that he didn't want the Black Ajah destroyed. Nesita was revealed as Black Ajah. She must be Kera, Tarna, Danelle, or Melare. She is not Melare or Tarna since they are part of Pevara's group at the Black Tower. Unless Mesaana is Kera, who we have not seen much at all, she is Danelle. Since RJ said we really should be able to figure it out, it is more likely to be someone we've seen more than once. We don't even need to know that Danelle is friendless or that Mesaana often dresses in bronze to conclude this.

If eye colors were known for all the sisters who remained in the Tower and were mentioned before CoT, then your method of elimination for Mesaana's alter ego might work. Unfortunately, there are many Aes Sedai listed in the Encyclopaedia for which there is no eye color given. So trying to base any conclusions about Mesaana's disguise only on eye color doesn't work out very well. It's one clue, but that's all it is.

For example, here is a list of all the sisters in the Brown Ajah for whom eye color is not given. These are sisters who are loyalists and were mentioned before CoT:

Jesse Bilal - Head of Brown Ajah - no eye color given
Juilaine Madome - elected as new Sitter in Tower for Brown after split - no eye color given
Saerin Asnobar - Sitter in Tower, Black Ajah hunter - no eye color given
Serafelle - read dark prophecy on dungeon wall in Fal Dara with Verin - no eye color given (and we haven't seen her since TGH, so we can only assume that she remained in the Tower)
Shevan - Sitter in Tower, seen wearing a dress similar to the one we saw Mesaana wearing when she was partially unmaasked - no eye color given

Again, the list includes just the Browns in the Tower that we are not able to eliminate on the basis of eye color - I didn't even bother to list the sisters in the other Ajahs. All of these sisters could have blue eyes and therefore fit that aspect of Mesaana's disguise - we just don't know. If you want to eliminate Saerin on the basis that she is a Black Ajah hunter as you did Seaine, that still leaves others that can't be eliminated in this way.

At this point, then, we have to go beyond eye color and look at the other clues about Mesaana' s identity, such as the notion that a younger friendless Aes Sedai would be easier to imitate than a sister with many friends and acquaintances and a long history in the Tower (like an Ajah Head or Sitter).

Marie Curie 7
11-23-2009, 04:49 PM
over at RAFO.com, Etzel and I came up with who I think is currently the best candidate for Mesaana.

Mesaana is Norine Dovarna: "Big-eyed and nearly as dreamy as Danelle at times, and as friendless, she resented Alviarin; if the Keeper came from the White, in her eyes it should have been Norine Dovarna." (ACoS, prologue)

That she doesn't have friends, doesn't like Alviarin (maybe just to avoid contact), is dreamy (to hide discrepancies to the real Norine?) and her striking eyes could point to Mesaana.

The only problem is that Alviarin knows Norine and should normally already have figured out why Mesaana's appearance and voice seem familiar to her (if Messana looks and sounds a bit like Norine). On the other hand, Alviarin maybe has other things in her head with SH's orders and Silviana's punishments.

Can you explain how this makes Norine a better candidate for Mesaana than Danelle herself? If Mesaana were posing as Norine and she acted as if she didn't like Alviarin in order to avoid contact with her, then why pose as a member of the White Ajah in the first place? It would seem to be much better to pose as someone from another Ajah so that there would be much less worry about contact.

There is also one other scene with her & Alviarin in KoD:

"You'd grimace too, Ramesa, if you were being strapped every morning before breakfast," Norine said, much too loudly and plainly meaning for Alviarin to hear. Ramesa, a tall slender woman with silver bells sewn down the sleeves of her white-embroidered dress, looked startled at being addressed, and likely she was. Norine had few friends, perhaps none. She went on, cutting her eyes toward Alviarin to see whether she had noticed. "It is irrational to call a penance private and pretend nothing is happening when the Amyrlin Seat has imposed it. But then, her rationality has always been overrated, in my opinion." (KoD, prologue)

Maybe Mesaana is testing, if Alviarin has recognized her.

Perhaps. Or perhaps Norine was simply making sure that Alviarin heard what she said and was rubbing it in because Alviarin disgraced the White Ajah. From earlier in the KoD prologue:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: Prologue - Embers Falling on Dry Grass

The Ajah felt keenly the shame of her having been stripped of the Keeper's stole. Most felt anger at the loss of influence, as well. There were far too many glares, some from sisters who stood far enough below her that they should leap to obey if she gave a command. Others deliberately turned their backs.

Since Norine resented Alviarin for being chosen Keeper instead of herself, she certainly would have wanted to rub Alviarin's nose in the fact that Alviarin had been removed as Keeper - this seems to me what Norine was doing.

Egwene also notices Norine guarding Leane in KoD, ch.24:
"Norine, lovely with her large liquid eyes but often as vague as any Brown."

The comparison to the Brown could be another clue pointing to Mesaana. It also makes sense that Mesaana would be vague, because she doesn't want to slip.

So Norine being Mesaana is my bet for the moment.

One of the problems that I have with this is that prior to CoT, there was just the one mention of Norine (your quote from ACoS above). Yeah, that mention did point out qualities that seem to be Mesaana-like (dreaminess) and that might be what Mesaana would want in an alter ego (friendlessness), but we already had evidence of those qualities from Danelle. In addition, RJ said that after CoT we definitely should have been able to figure out who Mesaana was posing as, but the other tidbits of information about Norine didn't come until KoD. So again I have to ask how this information about Norine makes her a better candidate for Mesaana rather than Danelle?

Terez
11-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Etzel has a tendency to try to come up with wacky theories, from what I've noticed. He seems to dislike popular theories.

kcf
11-23-2009, 05:05 PM
A lot of people out there have been unsatisfied with Danelle - and IMO, the evidence in the more recent books seem to point in different directions.

The main thing that lead me in this direction was that I strongly believe that Mesaana would have made sure to take some measure of Egwene in her captivity. Danelle doesn't ever do this, but we see Norine periodically on the periphery around Egwene.

It also makes sense that Mesaana would impersonate someone in the smallest Ajah - fewer people to fool. This also makes keeping an eye on Alvairin a bit easier.

As for RJ's clues - well, we know he's very subtle. I can easily see that one quote from aCoS being the clue that we could have picked up on.


Simply put, I like Norine better than Danelle. I don't think there is more evidence than for Danelle, but IMO, the circumstances fit just a bit more and subtley of the 'clues' fits RJ's style - set up Danelle, then use comparisons to her to reveal who Mesaana really is.

kcf
11-23-2009, 05:06 PM
Etzel has a tendency to try to come up with wacky theories, from what I've noticed. He seems to dislike popular theories.

This I agree with. It's rather rare that I agree with his theories.

But the Norine thing - I pushed him toward it. It makes more sense to me. But I find agreeing with Etzel to be a bit stange :P

Toss the dice
11-23-2009, 08:33 PM
Nyneave's standoff with Moghedien was early inNyneave's development in the OP. She's much closer to her potential now than whenshe faced off with Moggy.

That's true, forgot about that. Any thoughts yourself whether Mesaana or Moghedien is stronger?

Weird Harold
11-23-2009, 08:40 PM
That's true, forgot about that. Any thoughts yourself whether Mesaana or Moghedien is stronger?
Mesaana by about 2/21 of maximum strength.

Moghedien is, IMO, just barely stronger than any woman who wore the Shawl at the beginning of the series. Her reputation exceeds her actual capabilities in the OP by far.

Trutino
11-23-2009, 08:49 PM
If eye colors were known for all the sisters who remained in the Tower and were mentioned before CoT, then your method of elimination for Mesaana's alter ego might work. Unfortunately, there are many Aes Sedai listed in the Encyclopaedia for which there is no eye color given. So trying to base any conclusions about Mesaana's disguise only on eye color doesn't work out very well. It's one clue, but that's all it is.

For example, here is a list of all the sisters in the Brown Ajah for whom eye color is not given. These are sisters who are loyalists and were mentioned before CoT:

Jesse Bilal - Head of Brown Ajah - no eye color given
Juilaine Madome - elected as new Sitter in Tower for Brown after split - no eye color given
Saerin Asnobar - Sitter in Tower, Black Ajah hunter - no eye color given
Serafelle - read dark prophecy on dungeon wall in Fal Dara with Verin - no eye color given (and we haven't seen her since TGH, so we can only assume that she remained in the Tower)
Shevan - Sitter in Tower, seen wearing a dress similar to the one we saw Mesaana wearing when she was partially unmaasked - no eye color given

Again, the list includes just the Browns in the Tower that we are not able to eliminate on the basis of eye color - I didn't even bother to list the sisters in the other Ajahs. All of these sisters could have blue eyes and therefore fit that aspect of Mesaana's disguise - we just don't know. If you want to eliminate Saerin on the basis that she is a Black Ajah hunter as you did Seaine, that still leaves others that can't be eliminated in this way.

At this point, then, we have to go beyond eye color and look at the other clues about Mesaana' s identity, such as the notion that a younger friendless Aes Sedai would be easier to imitate than a sister with many friends and acquaintances and a long history in the Tower (like an Ajah Head or Sitter).

I was working off the fact that RJ had said you should have been able to figure it out by CoT and if not, you should be able to figure it out after CoT.


Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA


Q: Who is Mesaana?
RJ: Who is Mesaana? Think! You have enough evidence to know that by now, I would suspect, and you certainly will have enough after reading Crossroads of Twilight.

First off: I don't think it's Norine because she didn't appear in CoT at all.

Back to Danelle: When Mesaana's disguise fell down, all Jordan has Alviarin notice is her dress, her age, that she has a familiar face, and that her eyes are blue. Not hair color, not height, not weight. Just the blue eyes. If he did put the blue eyes in as that last piece of evidence, then we should be able to narrow it down to women he's made a point of describing as having blue eyes. It's like he's saying, "ok, I gave you the bronze dress before, now here's more bronze and her eye color. Now you really should be able to figure it out." (As for the middle age business, we would not have enough evidence to find the right not young/not old Brown sister.)

Really though, we'll be trying to figure out Mesaana's identity until she's definitively unmasked. Even then, it will still be debated for a while. ;)

This was just my small contribution to the larger debate. :)

Marie Curie 7
11-23-2009, 10:22 PM
A lot of people out there have been unsatisfied with Danelle - and IMO, the evidence in the more recent books seem to point in different directions.

The main thing that lead me in this direction was that I strongly believe that Mesaana would have made sure to take some measure of Egwene in her captivity. Danelle doesn't ever do this, but we see Norine periodically on the periphery around Egwene.

That doesn't really explain RJ's interview quotes that state that we should have been able to figure out who Mesaana was before CoT, though. Or the bit that states that if we hadn't figured it out before CoT, then we should definitely be able to figure it out by CoT. How does your choice of Norine or the evidence in later books correlate with those quotes?

The evidence from CoT that apparently RJ felt should confirm Mesaana's identity is that Alviarin sees a face that she almost recognizes, a woman with blue eyes wearing a green dress trimmed with bronze. How does that in any way help to confirm Norine as Mesaana's identity?

It also makes sense that Mesaana would impersonate someone in the smallest Ajah - fewer people to fool. This also makes keeping an eye on Alvairin a bit easier.

Well, a sister from the Brown who buries herself in research and her books would not have many people to fool, either, even in a larger Ajah. And in your previous post you suggested that Norine would want to avoid contact with Alviarin. A sister from another Ajah obviously fits this criterion better, and a sister in Elaida's circle, but one not thought of very highly, could easily keep an eye on Alviarin.

As for RJ's clues - well, we know he's very subtle. I can easily see that one quote from aCoS being the clue that we could have picked up on.

Simply put, I like Norine better than Danelle. I don't think there is more evidence than for Danelle, but IMO, the circumstances fit just a bit more and subtley of the 'clues' fits RJ's style - set up Danelle, then use comparisons to her to reveal who Mesaana really is.

Perhaps, but to refer to one of the interview quotes again, RJ suggests that there are many clues to Mesaana's identity prior to CoT:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

Tallis: RJ said there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before Crossroads of Twilight. He basically said that he'd full-out reveal her in upcoming books, though: '...and if you still don't know, well, you'll find out later.'

It's possible, of course, but I would be somewhat surprised that the one mention of Norine prior to CoT is what RJ was referring to.


I was working off the fact that RJ had said you should have been able to figure it out by CoT and if not, you should be able to figure it out after CoT.

Yes, I know. However, my point was that I felt that your analysis was incomplete because it was based only on the blue eyes thing.

First off: I don't think it's Norine because she didn't appear in CoT at all.

Neither did Danelle.

Back to Danelle: When Mesaana's disguise fell down, all Jordan has Alviarin notice is her dress, her age, that she has a familiar face, and that her eyes are blue. Not hair color, not height, not weight. Just the blue eyes. If he did put the blue eyes in as that last piece of evidence, then we should be able to narrow it down to women he's made a point of describing as having blue eyes. It's like he's saying, "ok, I gave you the bronze dress before, now here's more bronze and her eye color. Now you really should be able to figure it out." (As for the middle age business, we would not have enough evidence to find the right not young/not old Brown sister.)

Your assumption is that the blue eyes thing is the one absolutely key piece of evidence in this scene that's important in nailing down Mesaana's identity. It could be that, sure. But what if it's not? Yeah, we have seen Mesaana wearing bronze in some form or other before. But this scene also points out very importantly and really confirms for the first time that Mesaana has been masquerading as someone who Alviarin almost recognizes. Could that be Danelle? Sure, and I think it is, but I also believe that your conclusion that it is her on the basis of the analysis of sisters with blue eyes is incomplete.

Trutino
11-23-2009, 10:58 PM
Your assumption is that the blue eyes thing is the one absolutely key piece of evidence in this scene that's important in nailing down Mesaana's identity. It could be that, sure. But what if it's not? Yeah, we have seen Mesaana wearing bronze in some form or other before. But this scene also points out very importantly and really confirms for the first time that Mesaana has been masquerading as someone who Alviarin almost recognizes. Could that be Danelle? Sure, and I think it is, but I also believe that your conclusion that it is her on the basis of the analysis of sisters with blue eyes is incomplete.

I'm not sure that Alviarin finding her vaguely familiar in CoT was the piece that was supposed to let us know who it was. As I see it, it just confirms that she's been hanging around the tower, not who she is.

I know that the blue eyes don't prove anything definitively. I do think the analysis is strong, the strongest you can make based on one piece of evidence alone regarding her specific identity within the tower. (Beyond the evidence that proves she's posing as an Aes Sedai who was, according to Brandon, in the tower at the time of Egwene's purge.)

Any other descriptions regarding Mesaana's appearance that we received in Alviarin's pov's are just too vague to narrow down on their own. Particularly in light of the fact that we should know who she is, especially after CoT. That's why I think her eye color is the thing he put in to tip us off.

If you add other evidence such as the dress color and friendless-ness, Danelle/Mesaana is the conclusion that has the most evidence (albeit circumstantial) behind it. I appreciate your insight on this and agree that all of our evidence is circumstantial on this one; any analysis will be imperfect and can be refuted until we have proof, not just evidence.

Toss the dice
11-24-2009, 12:42 AM
Mesaana by about 2/21 of maximum strength.
I hope that was a joke, but sometimes hard to tell on here.


Moghedien is, IMO, just barely stronger than any woman who wore the Shawl at the beginning of the series. Her reputation exceeds her actual capabilities in the OP by far.
If Moggy and Nynaeve were tied (as of their battles), I would put Moggy as considerably stronger than any woman who wore the Shawl at the beginning of the series, as Nynaeve would be. Now if you're talking partway into the series instead of the beginning of the series, you're basically saying you think Moghedien was ever so slightly stronger in raw power than Nynaeve? I guess whatever way you slice it, I disagree.

I also disagree that her reputation exceeds her actual capabilities in the OP, because her knowledge, methods, excellent World of Dreams abilities (which you don't even have to count on this topic), and in general vast experience and ability in all things channeling (like others in the AoL) more than make up for her relative weakness (in a way) in terms of raw strength in the OP.

All of the Forsaken deserve all of the reputation they have and more, through both their actions and sheer abilities.

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 02:42 AM
I hope that was a joke, but sometimes hard to tell on here.

No, 2/21 stronger than Moggy wasn't a joke, although the format of 2/21 is a reference to many old discussions on RJ's mythical 21 level scale.

I do believe that Moggy is significantly weaker than is commonly believed, by about one Greade level.

Now if you're talking partway into the series instead of the beginning of the series, you're basically saying you think Moghedien was ever so slightly stronger in raw power than Nynaeve? I guess whatever way you slice it, I disagree.

Moggy and Nyneave's struggle in the Panarch's museum was an illustration of Nyneave's development, not an illustration of her potential. Moggy, of course, has a contiguous development and potentential. The Battle was Nyneave's "right of passage into actual Forsaken Class strength instead of potential Forsaken Class strength.

All of the Forsaken deserve all of the reputation they have and more, through both their actions and sheer abilities.

On this point we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think any of the Forsaken except Ishamael and Semirhage have even come close to the fearsome billing of the 13 Forsaken who wound up trapped in the Seals.

Moghedien, Mesaana, Lanfear, Asmodean, Sammael and Rahvin all impressed me as the type of people to be at Shadow Headquarters for an ass-chewing instead of a strategy meeting. 3,000+ years of propaganda raised them to bogieman levels of reputation they never deserved.

Terez
11-24-2009, 05:18 AM
No, 2/21 stronger than Moggy wasn't a joke, although the format of 2/21 is a reference to many old discussions on RJ's mythical 21 level scale.
Not mythical, unless you know something I don't:


East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Norén reporting (http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/jordan/rj-talk2.html)

(http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/jordan/rj-talk2.html)
On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found. They were the strongest Aes Sedai known before "the new ones". Several Aes Sedai, including Leane and Kiruna, were next in strength. By the old standards they were deemed very strong and capable.

[RJ apparently forgot (or maybe the person doing the report mixed it up) that there is a level between the Supergirls and Elaida/Siuan/Moiraine/Romanda/Lelaine - Cadsuane, Kerene, and Meilyn are stronger than Moiraine's group but weaker than Egwene's group (New Spring). It's also worth adding that Sharina is predicted to become as strong as it is possible to be (like Lanfear was, apparently), and Talaan (along with maybe Alivia) is probably between Sharina and Nynaeve, so that makes at least two levels, maybe three, between Nynaeve and the top. - Terez]

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2009, 05:51 AM
Of course, all those seeming problems can be avoided when, instead of using integers only, you also allow fractions. Then Moghedien could be a straight 20, Nynaeve would be 20.1, Talaan could be 20.5, Lanfear would be 21 and Bela a whopping 26.

Toss the dice
11-24-2009, 08:26 AM
No, 2/21 stronger than Moggy wasn't a joke, although the format of 2/21 is a reference to many old discussions on RJ's mythical 21 level scale.

I do believe that Moggy is significantly weaker than is commonly believed, by about one Greade level.
Fair enough.


Moggy and Nyneave's struggle in the Panarch's museum was an illustration of Nyneave's development, not an illustration of her potential. Moggy, of course, has a contiguous development and potentential. The Battle was Nyneave's "right of passage into actual Forsaken Class strength instead of potential Forsaken Class strength.
What's this have to do with what you originally said and I replied with? Stay on topic Harold. :)


On this point we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think any of the Forsaken except Ishamael and Semirhage have even come close to the fearsome billing of the 13 Forsaken who wound up trapped in the Seals.

Moghedien, Mesaana, Lanfear, Asmodean, Sammael and Rahvin all impressed me as the type of people to be at Shadow Headquarters for an ass-chewing instead of a strategy meeting. 3,000+ years of propaganda raised them to bogieman levels of reputation they never deserved.

Their reputation of course stems from what they did BEFORE they were imprisoned. I agree with you that AFTER they got out of the prison they haven't met their pre-prison exploits, but imo their reputation is very much deserved both from their past actions and their abilities in general.

Also keep in mind that it is a glorious time for "Light" heroes and characters, spun out by the wheel or whatever. The DR for one, Mat, Perrin, not to mention much stronger, skilled, and knowledgable Aes Sedai than there has been in the more recent past. Plop the Forsaken down into the time of say 200 years before the current series and it would be a slaughterfest, no one to challenge them, no Aes Sedai even remotely close in both raw strength and knowledge of weaves. Now you have incredibly diverse and powerful "Light" Aes Sedai seemingly popping out of the woodwork, from old women (Sharina) to Sea folk channelers (Talaan), to Aiel (Aviendha), to Nynaeve, not to mention some of the powerful Asha'man, who may have Forsaken level strength (I bet Narishma could whoop Moghedien's ass in raw power, Flinn is also strong). The Last Battle is drawing near and it is the time for "heroes" on both sides of the war.

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2009, 08:57 AM
Well, as for whether or not they've accomplished much nowadays: Semirhage has thrown an entire continent into chaos, effectively taking it out of the equation for TG completely.
The only real world equivalent I can think of for that is Lenin, who took Russia out of World War One in a similar way, by overthrowing its government. And even Lenin had more help than Semirhage seems to have needed.

Spasmodean
11-24-2009, 09:47 AM
Well, as for whether or not they've accomplished much nowadays: Semirhage has thrown an entire continent into chaos, effectively taking it out of the equation for TG completely.
The only real world equivalent I can think of for that is Lenin, who took Russia out of World War One in a similar way, by overthrowing its government. And even Lenin had more help than Semirhage seems to have needed.


Graendal also did a good job with Arad Doman, not even the Aiel and Saldeans combined were able to "fix" it. Whoever's got their claws into the Borderlanders also seems to be doing it effectively.

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2009, 09:58 AM
Graendal had apparently done the same with the Sharans.

And Asmodean has done a fairly neat job on the Aiel, by getting the Shaido to act as they did.

All in all, if the Forsaken had had help from people who were more capable than Liandrin, then they would have done very well indeed even in the Third Age.

kcf
11-24-2009, 10:54 AM
That doesn't really explain RJ's interview quotes that state that we should have been able to figure out who Mesaana was before CoT, though. Or the bit that states that if we hadn't figured it out before CoT, then we should definitely be able to figure it out by CoT. How does your choice of Norine or the evidence in later books correlate with those quotes?

The evidence from CoT that apparently RJ felt should confirm Mesaana's identity is that Alviarin sees a face that she almost recognizes, a woman with blue eyes wearing a green dress trimmed with bronze. How does that in any way help to confirm Norine as Mesaana's identity?

Well, Danelle wasn't in CoT either. I find it much more likely that Alviarin would almost recognize someone within her own Ajah than a fairly reclusive Brown. Though I certainly concede the point that during Elaida's deposing of Siuan, that it's clear Alviarin had to interact with Danelle.


As I've said, I've always been on the fence about it being Danelle - it just didn't feel right and evidence in KOD and TGS for her being Mesaana is essentially non-existant. I find Norine the much more satisfactory suspect.

One thing is for certain - we'll find out in ToM.

One Armed Gimp
11-24-2009, 11:27 AM
One thing is for certain - we'll find out in ToM.

I hope not, I kind of want this to drag out and cause Egwene problems.

fdsaf3
11-24-2009, 11:27 AM
Graendal also did a good job with Arad Doman, not even the Aiel and Saldeans combined were able to "fix" it. Whoever's got their claws into the Borderlanders also seems to be doing it effectively.

Don't underestimate Rahvin's impact in Andor. RJ stated that Andor was the strongest nation in Randland, and only at the end of KoD did Elayne finally get back on the Lion Throne.

Edit:

And it's not like all's quiet there, either. Morgase alienated a lot of Nobles, and Elayne's pregnancy is bound to cause her some problems. She's an emotional wreck.

kcf
11-24-2009, 11:35 AM
I hope not, I kind of want this to drag out and cause Egwene problems.

I'm pretty sure that Brandon has said that it will be resolved in ToM.

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 12:26 PM
Not mythical, unless you know something I don't:
I know that many don't believe that scale accurately represents the relative power of channelers. :D

Also while we know that the scale exists, we really don't have any idea how it is structured, only guesses.

In both of those senses, the scale is "mythical" because like knowing the title of a fairy tale, we only know the barest of details.

Spasmodean
11-24-2009, 12:51 PM
I know that many don't believe that scale accurately represents the relative power of channelers. :D

Also while we know that the scale exists, we really don't have any idea how it is structured, only guesses.

In both of those senses, the scale is "mythical" because like knowing the title of a fairy tale, we only know the barest of details.

I doubt it's linear.

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 01:27 PM
What's this have to do with what you originally said and I replied with? Stay on topic Harold. :)

It's is a restatement of what I said before: Nyneave vs Moggy in the Panarch's Museum was a momentary comparison; a comparison en passant, so to speak.

Their reputation of course stems from what they did BEFORE they were imprisoned. I agree with you that AFTER they got out of the prison they haven't met their pre-prison exploits,

You're missing the point that the Forsaken's pre-imprisonment exploits are what I think have been escalated to Bogieman status by time and distortion.

One of the over-atrching themes of the WOT is how History becomes Legend and Legend becomes Myth. I don't see why the Forsaken's reputation should be exempt from that effect.

Their pre-imprisonment accomplishments were horrific enough according to Rand/LTT's contemporary memories. We have to consider that LTT's perception of who did what in the Enemy camp might be a bit flawed or distorted by the kind of propanda employed against the Axis powers in WWII.

Also keep in mind that it is a glorious time for "Light" heroes and characters, spun out by the wheel or whatever. The DR for one, Mat, Perrin, not to mention much stronger, skilled, and knowledgable Aes Sedai than there has been in the more recent past.

The Pattern has indeed spun out many strong, innovative channelers willing to share knowledge with other Channeling groups; there really was little need for Forsaken Class channelers until the Forsaken's release loomed in the Pattern. Those Channelers are still learning what the older more experienced channelers who have been around for a century or two know.

Traveling, Cuendillar, and the New Healing are really the only weaves the Supergirls didn't learn from someone else -- captured Forsaken or non-aes sedai channelers. Elayne's talent for making ter'angreal is a personal talent that she's been unable to pass on, so far.

Plop the Forsaken down into the time of say 200 years before the current series and it would be a slaughterfest, no one to challenge them, no Aes Sedai even remotely close in both raw strength and knowledge of weaves.

I don't think there are more skilled and knowledgeable Channelers 'today' than there were 20-40 years ago; the White Tower is just noticing more than in past years. The other Channeling groups who have been "discovered" in the course of the book have had many of their strongest channelers for as much as a century or more.


Now you have incredibly diverse and powerful "Light" Aes Sedai seemingly popping out of the woodwork, from old women (Sharina) to Sea folk channelers (Talaan), to Aiel (Aviendha), to Nynaeve, not to mention some of the powerful Asha'man, who may have Forsaken level strength (I bet Narishma could whoop Moghedien's ass in raw power, Flinn is also strong).

Most of those Aes Sedai "popping out of the woodwork" were around before the beginning of the series. The numbers of Aes Sedai have been declining over the centuries faster than the "culling effect" was eliminating candidates because the White Tower couldn't be bothered with actually looking for novices or accepting novices they didn't find until they were "too old."

Graendal had apparently done the same with the Sharans.

And Asmodean has done a fairly neat job on the Aiel, by getting the Shaido to act as they did.


Greandal wasn't on my list of incompetents.

Asmodean may have encouraged the Shaido, but Couladin and Sevanna didn't need much encouragement to act as they did. ETA: it was Sammael who made the Shaido's real contribution to spreading Chaos possible.

All in all, if the Forsaken had had help from people who were more capable than Liandrin, then they would have done very well indeed even in the Third Age.

The Forsaken have had help from people more capable than Liandrin and her Keystone Koven; Mazrim Taim for example.

I did forget to put Be'lal on that list; He's easy to forget because he was so inconsequential.

fdsaf3
11-24-2009, 02:55 PM
Has RJ ever mentioned anything about the "culling" being noticed by other channeling groups, i.e. the Sea Folk?

Neilbert
11-24-2009, 03:47 PM
Traveling, Cuendillar, and the New Healing are really the only weaves the Supergirls didn't learn from someone else --

Yeah, but hiding your ability to channel is one heck of a power if others don't know it's possible.

Asmodean may have encouraged the Shaido, but Couladin and Sevanna didn't need much encouragement to act as they did. ETA: it was Sammael who made the Shaido's real contribution to spreading Chaos possible.

They needed legitimacy though, which Asmo Provided.

Yuri33
11-24-2009, 04:33 PM
Yup, Couladin would never have been able to attempt his Car'a'carn coup if Asmo didn't give him the dragon tattoos. Despite being the weakest Forsaken, Asmo was one of the most clever with his spinning, probably out of necessity (the impossibly thin ribbons were genius).

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 04:38 PM
Has RJ ever mentioned anything about the "culling" being noticed by other channeling groups, i.e. the Sea Folk?
Not that I recall -- at least not that anyone noticed.

He did say that the "Culling" was a real decrease in Channeling world-wide. He seemed to imply that only the Yellow Ajah seems to have noticed and/or tried to explain it, though.

Terez
11-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Not that I recall -- at least not that anyone noticed.

He did say that the "Culling" was a real decrease in Channeling world-wide. He seemed to imply that only the Yellow Ajah seems to have noticed and/or tried to explain it, though.
Obviously not, considering the Whites' mad plan...

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 04:56 PM
Obviously not, considering the Whites' mad plan...
IIRC, the "White's Mad Plan" was formulated in response to the Yellow's Culling theory. Just because the Yellow were the ones to notice doesn't mean other Ajah's were ignorant of their commentary.

Terez
11-24-2009, 05:02 PM
Seems to me like you're making a bad assumption, with no evidence to support, and evidence against.

Neilbert
11-24-2009, 07:41 PM
Anyone remember why Nynaeve was a big deal?

There's no way it was just the Yellows noticing that the White Tower needed to close a novice mess hall.

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 10:03 PM
Anyone remember why Nynaeve was a big deal?

Nyneave was big deal because of her strength, but Sharina Malloy demonstrates that the WhiteTower simply missed channelers of Nyneave's strength in their haphazard recruiting methods.

Toss the dice
11-24-2009, 10:51 PM
Double post.

Toss the dice
11-24-2009, 10:57 PM
It's is a restatement of what I said before: Nyneave vs Moggy in the Panarch's Museum was a momentary comparison; a comparison en passant, so to speak.
Actually you are twisting what you originally said to the point where you are talking about something completely different. Go ahead and re-read it. If you would like me to go ahead and post each other's comments and responses to this little topic in a separate post, just say the word. I may anyway. It's plain as day that you are full of crap. It won't kill you to simply admit you misspoke (or just simply agree with me). Leave the digging of holes to others. It kills the respect I have for your knowledge.


You're missing the point that the Forsaken's pre-imprisonment exploits are what I think have been escalated to Bogieman status by time and distortion.

One of the over-atrching themes of the WOT is how History becomes Legend and Legend becomes Myth. I don't see why the Forsaken's reputation should be exempt from that effect.

Their pre-imprisonment accomplishments were horrific enough according to Rand/LTT's contemporary memories. We have to consider that LTT's perception of who did what in the Enemy camp might be a bit flawed or distorted by the kind of propanda employed against the Axis powers in WWII.
I agree that the Forsakens' reputation has been elevated to boogeyman status. So let me get this straight. Now you're trying to defend your side (basically the fact that the Forsaken don't deserve their reputation of being quite so bad), by claiming that it's likely that LTT's perception of what they did in the AoL was distorted by propaganda? Give me a break dude. The Forsaken were terrible monsters and very powerful, and they have a reputation that deservedly backs it up. End of story.


The Pattern has indeed spun out many strong, innovative channelers willing to share knowledge with other Channeling groups; there really was little need for Forsaken Class channelers until the Forsaken's release loomed in the Pattern. Those Channelers are still learning what the older more experienced channelers who have been around for a century or two know.
Agreed.

Traveling, Cuendillar, and the New Healing are really the only weaves the Supergirls didn't learn from someone else -- captured Forsaken or non-aes sedai channelers. Elayne's talent for making ter'angreal is a personal talent that she's been unable to pass on, so far.
Agreed.


I don't think there are more skilled and knowledgeable Channelers 'today' than there were 20-40 years ago; the White Tower is just noticing more than in past years. The other Channeling groups who have been "discovered" in the course of the book have had many of their strongest channelers for as much as a century or more.
That is exactly my point. They are being FOUND now. And that is exactly why there are more skilled and knowledgable (and much stronger) channelers now than in the recent past. Because they have been FOUND for these special times. That is why they are now coming out of the woodwork, being discovered.


Most of those Aes Sedai "popping out of the woodwork" were around before the beginning of the series. The numbers of Aes Sedai have been declining over the centuries faster than the "culling effect" was eliminating candidates because the White Tower couldn't be bothered with actually looking for novices or accepting novices they didn't find until they were "too old."
Yeah, they were around before the beginning of the series simply because it wouldn't be logical to have incredibly "skilled" 2-year old channelers running around as heroes of the Light. Obviously they need to be born and grow up at least a little bit first. :) And if by around you mean anywhere near their current "state," I wholeheartedly disagree. You know who was "around" right at the beginning of the series? Siuan, Moiraine, and Elaida. One could argue for or against Cadsuane due to her "retirement." That list is a far cry from the current list of who's "around." Why? Because the ones added in the last few years were found and discovered. Why? Because the Light needs them. The Wheel called for them.

Terez
11-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Might want to delete one of those posts. TtD.

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 11:13 PM
That is exactly my point. They are being FOUND now. And that is exactly why there are more skilled and knowledgable (and much stronger) channelers now than in the recent past. Because they have been FOUND for these special times. That is why they are now coming out of the woodwork, being discovered.

What makes you think that they wouldn't have been available to be found 200 years ago if the Forsaken had happened to escape the Bore then instead of now.

Wouldn't Rand have been Reborn then instead of now, too if that was when he was needed?

Part of what makes "these special times" special is that the Forsaken are free to oppose the Dragon Reborn at T'G. I can't see the Wheel/Pattern being so inept as to let the major portion of the opposition forces loose ahead of schedule. :D

Belazamon
11-25-2009, 06:28 PM
Part of what makes "these special times" special is that the Forsaken are free to oppose the Dragon Reborn at T'G. I can't see the Wheel/Pattern being so inept as to let the major portion of the opposition forces loose ahead of schedule. :D
Hmm. You don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the Pattern isn't the only influence on events these days. ;)

Weird Harold
11-25-2009, 09:22 PM
Hmm. You don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the Pattern isn't the only influence on events these days. ;)
The Wheel/Pattern was still the primary influence on events up to the Seals breaking and the demise of the EoTW.

It still is the primary influence on events, as long as events follow Prophecy, because the only thing it doesn't control is The DO (and maybe Padan Fain.)

Balefire may cause thePattern to loosen and fray, but until Min's viewings and Foretellings start to fail, the Pattern is still in near absolute control.

Belazamon
11-25-2009, 11:58 PM
It still is the primary influence on events, as long as events follow Prophecy, because the only thing it doesn't control is The DO (and maybe Padan Fain.)
My only point was that the Great Lord's ability to influence the Pattern is definitely growing - the Pattern itself may still be the "primary" influence, but it's only a matter of (diminishing) degree at this stage of the game. I doubt the Chosen got loose because the Pattern was "inept."

Weird Harold
11-26-2009, 01:01 AM
My only point was that the Great Lord's ability to influence the Pattern is definitely growing - the Pattern itself may still be the "primary" influence, but it's only a matter of (diminishing) degree at this stage of the game. I doubt the Chosen got loose because the Pattern was "inept."
No the Forsaken didn't get loose because the Pattern was inept, but they also didn't get loose without Lightfriends alive and maturing into opponents capable of standing up to them.

The "DO's Touch" is is vastly overrated, IMHO -- Especially since Brandan flatly said that the spoilage is because of Rand and not because of the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2009, 04:36 AM
The Forsaken got loose because of what the DO did, and the Pattern can't influence the DO. If the DO had managed to weaken the seals sufficiently two hundred years earlier, then what could the Pattern have done to keep the Forsaken locked up?

Matoyak
11-26-2009, 05:12 AM
The Forsaken got loose because of what the DO did, and the Pattern can't influence the DO. If the DO had managed to weaken the seals sufficiently two hundred years earlier, then what could the Pattern have done to keep the Forsaken locked up?I don't think it is that the pattern would keep them locked up, I'd more suspect that it's more that when they DID get out, channelers who could face them had been conjured up for that inevitably. So I think it's less that the pattern could prevent their release, but anticipate it instead, and prepare for that...

Weird Harold
11-26-2009, 11:54 AM
I don't think it is that the pattern would keep them locked up, I'd more suspect that it's more that when they DID get out, channelers who could face them had been conjured up for that inevitably. So I think it's less that the pattern could prevent their release, but anticipate it instead, and prepare for that...
What he said.

Also, as I said earlier, as long as the Pattern's predictive elements like Minn's Viewings and Foretellings remain functional, the Pattern is still in control. The Pattern is still in control because it can anticipate and counter what the DO does. That doesn't mean the DO is powerless, but readers and WOT denizens alike give him far more credit for problems than He has earned.

tGS
CHAPTER 32
Rivers of Shadow:

"I do not see the reason for so much fuss," Merise said with her Taraboner accent, folding her arms.

"Ghosts, we are all accustomed to them by now, are we not? At least these aren't causing people to melt or burst into flames."

Reports in the city indicated that "incidents" were growing more and more frequent. Just in the last few days, Nynaeve had investigated three credible reports of people who had had insects burrow out of their skin, killing them. There had also been the man who had been found in his bed one morning, completely changed into burned charcoal. His linens hadn't been singed. She had seen that body herself.

These incidents weren't caused by the ghosts, but the people had begun to blame the apparitions. Better than them blaming Rand, she supposed.

Nyneave and the others with Rand understand that the spontaneous combustions and othe weird effects are caused by ta'veren, but the general populace don't; they're blaming the Ghosts on the DO and the effects on the Ghosts.

People in the R/W blame natural disasters on the Devil or say they're God's punishment for dealing with the Devil; How is blaming everything wrong in the world on the DO any different?

Some of the bad things in the world are the direct result of the DO's touch, but far more are the result of Rand's ta'veren-ness and his gloom and depression.

Enigma
11-26-2009, 01:16 PM
My understanding was that ta'veren could only make what could happen but was vary rare a lot more likely to happen. Now I'm not a doctor but I don't think its natural that a man can have a whole load of insects start to eat him up from the inside out until only his skin is left in a matter of minutes.

There are a few other events that have also been downright impossible more than unlikely. So clearly the Dark One or his bubbles of evil are having some effect but I agree that they are all mixed in with the ta'veren effect and Rand's link to the wellbeing of the land.

Dom
11-26-2009, 02:02 PM
IIRC, the "White's Mad Plan" was formulated in response to the Yellow's Culling theory. Just because the Yellow were the ones to notice doesn't mean other Ajah's were ignorant of their commentary.

Actually, the "culling" and "dwindling numbers" debate were by and large a Black scheme to divide the Ajahs. What the Aes Sedai have culled by eliminating male channelers and not having children are the sparkers, who have diminished a lot in number and have apparently decreased in strength. OTOH, they have preserved the latent ability 'in hiding' until the time of the LB by their passive recruiting methods. Had they done since the Breaking what Sheriam began in Salidar (and kept to their way of not bearing offspring) they would have done far worse. to cull the ability.

As for the BA link:

Before the three ta'veren, Siuan told us this was the Big Issue dividing the Ajahs and Hall during her reign. The big champion of the culling theory, nearly coming to shouting matches with Red sisters over the issue in hallways, was Sheriam.

"The Whites' mad plan" was championned by Alviarin, from Verin's remark that she wasn't best pleased by Verin's counter argument. Two other BA involved.

Verin's return from the TR with strong sparkers and learners and "evidence" of culling would have relaunched the debate again.

Sheriam's efforts in Salidar as well, this time over the recruiting methods, which in a way it did as it did as it divided the Hall even before Egwene made the issue even more controversial by getting rid of the age limit.

Weird Harold
11-26-2009, 03:01 PM
Actually, the "culling" and "dwindling numbers" debate were by and large a Black scheme to divide the Ajahs. What the Aes Sedai have culled by eliminating male channelers and not having children are the sparkers, who have diminished a lot in number and have apparently decreased in strength....

All very interesting, but hardly relevant to the original question and point of my repsonse:


Has RJ ever mentioned anything about the "culling" being noticed by other channeling groups, i.e. the Sea Folk?

Not that I recall -- at least not that anyone noticed.

He did say that the "Culling" was a real decrease in Channeling world-wide. He seemed to imply that only the Yellow Ajah seems to have noticed and/or tried to explain it, though.

However and Whyever the politics of the notice evolved, only the White Tower has noticed the "Culling" and commented on it. RJ's answer was fairly long and detailed, IIRC: The "culling" is world-wide and due to cultural pressures unique to each group/society.

Belazamon
11-28-2009, 01:43 PM
The "DO's Touch" is is vastly overrated, IMHO -- Especially since Brandan flatly said that the spoilage is because of Rand and not because of the DO.

My understanding was that ta'veren could only make what could happen but was vary rare a lot more likely to happen. Now I'm not a doctor but I don't think its natural that a man can have a whole load of insects start to eat him up from the inside out until only his skin is left in a matter of minutes.
Hmm, this is actually a good point. If ta'veren only twist the probability of events that could actually happen - how likely do we think it is that all the food in a city could spoil instantly? Now that I think on it, it doesn't really seem like something that could happen by even the slimmest of chances...

Weird Harold
11-28-2009, 07:22 PM
Hmm, this is actually a good point. If ta'veren only twist the probability of events that could actually happen - how likely do we think it is that all the food in a city could spoil instantly? Now that I think on it, it doesn't really seem like something that could happen by even the slimmest of chances...
I think that within a definition of "instantly" as "since we last checked" a fast spreading fungus or mold is within the realm of possibility.

As noted elsewhere, Brandon doesn't have as tight a control of the timing in the WOT, but he did say that the food spoiling in Arad Doman was because of Rand. He did not say it was because of Rand being ta'veren, but because Rand is literally tied to the land. Most people, including Rand have assumed the mechanism of being "tied to the land" is him being ta'veren, but I'm not sure that has to be the case; it certainly doesn't explain how the reverse part of the equation -- the Land being tied to Rand -- might work.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 12:25 AM
A couple things I noticed on a reread...the grain spoiled the same time Rand's mood went super sour. Also, Tuon noticed that the land that had been growing green with spring around Ebou Dar was completely dead and it pretty much gels with the time that Rand uses the TP. That dark halo is the DO's corruption and that is what spoiled the grain, not ta'veren chance.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 04:21 AM
Yep, it quite clearly was the DO's touch.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 11:33 AM
Yep, it quite clearly was the DO's touch.

Further evidence is Hurin's nose. He basically smells the Dark One's essence when he meets with Rand. He even comments on it as "Hmm, I've never smelled that before, its like death but worse."


The Grave...a new fragrance by Shaidar Klein.

padfoot89
11-29-2009, 12:07 PM
Lucky for Rand that Hurin didn't come and tell him "Dude, you smell bad". Or maybe lucky for Hurin he didn't say that. I don't think Rand would have taken the comment too well.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 12:11 PM
Rand integrated on Dragonmount so he solved one issue. However, that doesn't mean the DO's taint isn't still there as well as Fain's wound tainting him. I wonder how and when he solves that issue. There's no way that he can win with the DO and Fain's claws in him like that.

nameless
11-29-2009, 06:31 PM
I've been waiting for Nyneave to link with Flinn for a while now. It stands to reason that both saidar and saidin would be necessary to heal supernatural wounds like Thom's leg and Rand's torso.

Belazamon
11-29-2009, 08:19 PM
That dark halo is the DO's corruption and that is what spoiled the grain, not ta'veren chance.
Perfect logic. Problem being, of course, that BS seems to have contradicted that explanation.

Terez
11-29-2009, 08:29 PM
Sort of. He seems to have said that it is both Rand's ta'veren effect and the effects of the link with Moridin (extending to the True Power usage). The latter affects Rand, which in turn affects the former.

Belazamon
11-29-2009, 08:32 PM
Sort of. He seems to have said that it is both Rand's ta'veren effect and the effects of the link with Moridin (extending to the True Power usage). The latter affects Rand, which in turn affects the former.
The only one I remember seeing is the one where he said the food spoilage was strictly because "the Dragon is one with the land." Maybe I missed a quote somewhere...?

Terez
11-29-2009, 08:40 PM
There were a few, but that's not the point. Brandon didn't exactly contradict what Davian said, by saying that the food spoilage was due to Rand being 'one with the land'. But I think Davian could have phrased it better, so as to not give you a semantic nit to pick. I think all Davian is saying is that Rand's new halo is obviously the cause of the excess badness in his ta'veren effects - not random chance (or, by WH's post, that the 'one with the land' thing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ta'veren - that is not contradicted by the Brandon quote, but it does leave the question of why Rand's ta'veren effects were all bad in this book).

Belazamon
11-29-2009, 08:53 PM
Guess it's down to differing interpretations then - I read his response as more of a direct contradiction to the idea that the TP was related. ~shrug~

Davian93
11-29-2009, 09:42 PM
There were a few, but that's not the point. Brandon didn't exactly contradict what Davian said, by saying that the food spoilage was due to Rand being 'one with the land'. But I think Davian could have phrased it better, so as to not give you a semantic nit to pick. I think all Davian is saying is that Rand's new halo is obviously the cause of the excess badness in his ta'veren effects - not random chance (or, by WH's post, that the 'one with the land' thing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ta'veren - that is not contradicted by the Brandon quote, but it does leave the question of why Rand's ta'veren effects were all bad in this book).

I was unaware of the Brandon quote...but yes, the rest fits. Its clear that the DO's corruption is oozing out of Rand by things like the food spoiling and Hurin's reaction to him.

wolframbohr2
11-30-2009, 02:13 AM
Hello, this is my 1st post. I have been reading the series since it first came out. I also have looked at boards for a while, but never decided to post anything until now. The following is from my memory, my books are not handy.

Getting back to Mesaana, there are some things to think about.

Mesaana most likely is using the Mask of Mirrors to hide. However, she is probably not using it when she meets with Alviarin. The person she is impersonating would need to look similar to her, which is why the face looks familiar to Alviarin. We know from Rand’s POV when he meets with Nyneave in disguise that the Mask of Mirrors works best if there are only subtle changes.

Does the person, if Aes Sedi, have a warder? The reason being is Mesanna would have killed the Aes Sedi to impersonate her. The warder would know that his Aes Sedi is dead. From Lan’s action and other descriptions we know what happens to warders when their Aes Sedi have died, even if the bond was transferred after death. People would notice something was wrong by the warder’s actions.

There are some ways around this. The bond would need to be transferred before death. But I think the warder would know something was amiss. She could use Compulsion on the warder. But depending how much the warder knows, the amount of compulsion used would make the warder useless and noticeable by others by behavior. If the warder was a dark friend compulsion might not be used or just a little bit used.

If the warder was killed, other warders and Aes Sedi would notice the absence while that Aes Sedi was still in the White Tower. Granted, the cover story could be that he is out doing something, but this would raise a few eye brows and people would wonder what that Aes Sedi was doing. Do any of the suspects have a warder?

If it is an Aes Sedi, Mesaana would need to know some history of that person. Danelle makes a good candidate because of having few friends and being dreamier than the average Brown. Any slips in character or actions would be attributed to that. But she would need at least some information. Compulsion would be a good way of getting it. Look how easily Nyneave gave information when she was under Compulsion. If it was an Aes Sedi not of the Black Ajah, she would not be able to lie about the information.

If Aes Sedi and still in the Tower how did she beat the Oath Rod? She could easily think that she is not a Dark Friend, but one of the Chosen. She would need to think that Dark Friend was a level in service to the Dark One and not a general category that includes the Chosen. Also, when did the term Dark Friend come about? If it was coined in this age and the Age of Legends had a different name it becomes even easier to beat it because she is not of this Age and thus the term would not apply to her.

Personally I am leaning towards Danella. However, knowing Jordan, it could be someone no one ever thought about. One reason why I love this series is when you think you know all the options or possibilities he comes along with something out of the blue and it fits and works in the world he created.

Trutino
11-30-2009, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 25 - In Darkness

"Egwene al'Vere. She must be deposed."

"What?" Sheriam asked, startled. A switch of Air cracked against her back, and it burned. Fool! Did she want to get herself killed? "My apologies, Great Mistress," she said quickly. "Forgive my outburst. But it was by orders from one of the Chosen that I helped raise her as Amyrlin in the first place!"

"Yes, but she has proven to have been a . . . poor choice. We needed a child, not a woman with merely the face of a child. She must be removed. You will make certain this group of foolish rebels stops supporting her. And end those blasted meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod. How is it so many of you get there?"

"We have ter'angreal," Sheriam said, hesitantly. "Several in the shape of an amber plaque, several others in the shape of an iron disc. Then a handful of rings."

"Ah, sleep weavers," the figure said. "Yes, those could be useful. How many?"

Sheriam hesitated. Her first instinct was to lie or hedge—this seemed like information she could hold over the figure. But lying to one of the Chosen? A poor choice. "We had twenty," Sheriam said truthfully. "But one was with the woman Leane, who was captured. That leaves us with nineteen." Just enough for Egwene's meetings in the World of Dreams— one for each of the Sitters and one for Sheriam herself.

As I was re-reading the thread, I saw the above quote Terez posted. I've looked and looked and can't find where this is addressed:

"My apologies, Great Mistress," she said quickly. "Forgive my outburst. But it was by orders from one of the Chosen that I helped raise her as Amyrlin in the first place!"

"Yes, but she has proven to have been a . . . poor choice. We needed a child, not a woman with merely the face of a child.

Who instructed Sheriam to raise Egwene Amyrlin if not Mesaana? Halima appeared in ch. 30 of LoC and the Aes Sedai started talking about getting a biddable Amyrlin well before that.

Solmancer
11-30-2009, 03:48 AM
We knew that Delana, at the least, had been given orders or more in her dreams, so it doesn't seem too unlikely that other Black sisters were given an order to help with raising a "child" Amyrlin. What bakes my noodle there is, is the implication that Siuan was the one who pioneered the idea of calling Egwene, at the least. I guess the Forsaken thought it was a good idea!


Anyway, Mesaana. Based on the comment about "ways of defeating the Oath Rod", I think it's largely a simple explanation. We know, for example, that you can easily lie by omission, as follows. I have three apples, one in my left hand, two in my right. Saying "I have two apples" and leaving out the "in my right hand" is both telling the truth and not. What seems to matter is how you're thinking about it, as that example shows. There's strong evidence of this from sources such as New Spring ("...[Siuan's] mind must have been racing for her to come that close..." -- from when Siuan was complaining about her job; don't have the book so no page numbers).

So for example, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the following qualifies for getting around the Oath Rod, where the parenthesis indicate omitted statements (but make sense if you're thinking them; they ARE truthful to the speaker in his/her head, in other words).

* "I am not a Darkfriend (but Chosen)."
* "I do not serve the Shadow (tea)."

And for a completely different spin on things, let's quibble about whether nonsense is truth or not: "I am knot a Darkfriend." It's not a lie, but it sure does serve one's purposes for the purposes of truth, because written down it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Again, it's a matter of personal perception (I'm thinking about it in the nonsense way), but here the phoenetics work very well for one's skin remaining intact, no?

You can put all sorts of spins on things if you think about it. I'm not even going to bother with bringing up quotes and examples from the books about how Aes Sedai explicitly duck around the Three Oaths to serve their needs. There are quite a few and I only have The Gathering Storm available to me right now.

I did want to share that little bit about how I figure Mesaana (rather easily?) sidestepped the Purge, so she can probably do some damage to Egwene and then some later on, if not try to restart the Black Ajah under Egwene's nose.

-Some guy

P.S. - I don't think Silviana qualifies for Mesaana's persona at all. Her actions don't match up, even if the position of Mistress of Novices does fit Mesaana's apparent m.o.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 03:30 PM
My take on the dark halo thingy was just simple you have Rand's being ta'veren and then you have him being corrupted by the Dark One's own essence, which basically juices up his ta'veren nature and tips it toward evil being woven around him. Suddenly he really can make a person have a heart attack by his ta'veren nature, simply by willing it so. Well, as long as it would be an evil thing to do.

And if Rand and Ishamael are really woven out together and Ish has similar qualities then it wouldn't surprise me if the health of the Blight seems to be as directly linked to Ishamael's fortunes as it has been in the series.

wolframbohr2
12-03-2009, 03:10 AM
I have givin some more thought on how Mesaana could defeat the Oath Rod with out mental gymnastics. It could be from an other ter'angreal. It could be one that is simular to the Oath Rod and interfers with it, or have been made to stop oaths from binding.


Leane said the following
New Spring:the novel
Chapter 11, Just Before Dawn

"A thousand years ago, women came to be raised clad in the Light and left the same way - everyone here would have been - but the only part of that custom left is to keep the hallways clear until you reach the Ajah's quarter"

There would have been a reason why to be clad in the Light for the raising. We know the reason why women are clad in the Light when taking the Accepted test. But we can only guess at the reason for when they are raised.

It quite well could be from one or more AS not liking the Oaths when first introduced and found out that a personal ter'angrel they had with them kept them from being bound. It most likely would have been one of the AS who discoverd what the Oath Rod does. They would have had other ter'angeals around or ones that behaved simular in begining tests.

When an ageless face did not appear, the AS investigated the reason and found the ter'angreal. It would have been taken back if a sister "borrowed" it. To make sure on one did not do the same, the only logical thing to do is do the binding clad in the Light.

They could also discourage others from doing the smae by stating that no two ter'angreals do the same thing. Which could be true in their eyes since they only know what a fraction of the ones they have do. The knowlege of such an event might be in the 13th Depository or even stricken from the records all together because of the potential harm it could do.

The reason for Accepted to be still clad in the light for the test would come up every so often when when of them does not return from the rings. If no other mishapps happen with the bindings and Oaths the reason would have been forgotten even by those who would be in charge of the secrets if it was secret.

The ter'angreal very well could have been in the storeroom and Mesaana discoverd it. If she did, the other question is, did she take anything else? I can't imagin any of the Chosen giving up the chance at any of the items in there.

Maze
12-03-2009, 07:26 AM
I have givin some more thought on how Mesaana could defeat the Oath Rod with out mental gymnastics. It could be from an other ter'angreal. It could be one that is simular to the Oath Rod and interfers with it, or have been made to stop oaths from binding.


Leane said the following


There would have been a reason why to be clad in the Light for the raising. We know the reason why women are clad in the Light when taking the Accepted test. But we can only guess at the reason for when they are raised.

It quite well could be from one or more AS not liking the Oaths when first introduced and found out that a personal ter'angrel they had with them kept them from being bound. It most likely would have been one of the AS who discoverd what the Oath Rod does. They would have had other ter'angeals around or ones that behaved simular in begining tests.

When an ageless face did not appear, the AS investigated the reason and found the ter'angreal. It would have been taken back if a sister "borrowed" it. To make sure on one did not do the same, the only logical thing to do is do the binding clad in the Light.

They could also discourage others from doing the smae by stating that no two ter'angreals do the same thing. Which could be true in their eyes since they only know what a fraction of the ones they have do. The knowlege of such an event might be in the 13th Depository or even stricken from the records all together because of the potential harm it could do.

The reason for Accepted to be still clad in the light for the test would come up every so often when when of them does not return from the rings. If no other mishapps happen with the bindings and Oaths the reason would have been forgotten even by those who would be in charge of the secrets if it was secret.

The ter'angreal very well could have been in the storeroom and Mesaana discoverd it. If she did, the other question is, did she take anything else? I can't imagin any of the Chosen giving up the chance at any of the items in there.

I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.

Tree Brother
12-03-2009, 11:38 AM
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.

I am sure this has been stated already, but if she inverted a weave of air (or whatever) to put a barrier/shield between her and the rod, she wouldn't be bound. It requires contact. She already has an inverted "disguise", so why not an inverted "glove" as well?

Bonzi77
12-03-2009, 11:53 AM
I find it unlikely that Mesaana would allow herself to be bound by the oaths, regardless of whether she could do it and still hide her identity. Brandon said at a signing that there IS a way to defeat the oath rod.

wolframbohr2
12-03-2009, 04:05 PM
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.

I posted something simular to this earlier in the thread.

I am the type that likes to think of multiple ways something can be done. The one reason I love this series is that there can be multiple therories until the big reveal. And at times, well a lot of times, stuff seems to comes out of the blue, but when you look back you realize the clues were all there in multiple places.

Even if a therory turns out correct, there tends to be a "but" in it. Like the Verin thing.

Even though I put forth a thought on ter'angreal, I am still going to think of other ways. I have even thought of ways to tear apart what I posted on it.

jdmusic27
12-03-2009, 08:20 PM
I know this may be a stretch, but what if it were possible to take an oath that says something like "I vow to not be bound by oaths taken on this rod" or some such oath. Also, do actual thoughts and intentions come into play when taking the oaths? Could an oath be qualified in someones thoughts? For example, "I vow to speak no word that is untrue"....except when I feel like it. And I don't think that Mesaana could speak the words "I am not a darkfriend" truthfully. Whether she is a Chosen or a beggar, she worships the Dark One, which makes her a darkfriend.

FelixPax
12-03-2009, 09:04 PM
Sort of. He seems to have said that it is both Rand's ta'veren effect and the effects of the link with Moridin (extending to the True Power usage). The latter affects Rand, which in turn affects the former.

Ah, ummm...did Brandon at all mention the evil of Shadar Logoth directly being tied to the 'bedrock of the land' as one additional possibility for all that grain going bad in Arad Doman?

Yes, Rand is tied to the land, yet the evil of Shador Logoth was tied to the land as well. And Rand does have a wound on his side from Padan Fain's red ruby dagger. So that's two separate mechanisms tying Rand to the land now: as a ta'veran Dragon Reborn, and the wound of evil who's origin was Shador Logoth.


No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply, Shadow’s Waiting.


Remember Mordeth's indecision about what to do with the three boy ta'verans in Aridhol?

If you still want,” Perrin said to Mordeth, “we’ll come back tomorrow and help you.” Carefully he set the axe back on the heap of gem-encrusted chalices and jewelry. “If you want.”
“No. That is….” Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide. “Take what you want. Except….Except….”
Suddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scattered torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only…. He was so shocked he said it out loud. “You don’t have a shadow.”
A goblet fell from Mat’s hand with a crash.
Mordeth nodded, and for the first time his fleshy eyelids opened all the way. His sleek face suddenly appeared pinched and hungry. “So.” He stood straighter, seeming taller. “It is decided.”


Rand seems to embody the spirit of Aridhol, in his actions for a good part of tGS book. Until they very last chapters of course, whereupon he changes his views radically (Chapters 49, 50).

But what happens to the evil within Rand, spreading by his two ties to the lands still? Does his newly expressed love trump, cancel out two wounds of evil from spreading?

Oddly enough the very same chapter Mordeth of Shador Logoth is introduced, is the very same one, as the idea of "some dead man was speaking with my mouth" is introduced to Rand by Mat.

(Speculating) Later this madmen idea seems to of been created and translated into L.T.T, so Rand did not have to accept who he really was in fact, the Dragon Reborn and the baggage of it all. L.T.T is someone Rand would of hear of previously in stories, while this other 'old blood relatives' he probably never had heard of before.

“Are you all right, Mat?” Rand said. Mat lifted the saddle from his horse, and stood holding it. “Mat? Mat!”
Mat gave a start and almost dropped the saddle. “What? Oh. I … I was just thinking.”
“Thinking?” Perrin hooted from where he was replacing Mandarb’s bridle with a hackamore. “You were asleep.”
Mat scowled, “I was thinking about … about what happened back there. About those words I ….” Everybody turned to look at him then, not just Rand, and he shifted uneasily. “Well, you heard what Moiraine said. It’s as if some dead man was speaking with my mouth. I don’t like it.” His scowl grew deeper when Perrin chuckled.
“Aemon’s warcry, she said—right? Maybe you’re Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond’s Field is, I’d think you would like that—being a king and hero reborn.”
“Don’t say that!” Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. “That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly.” He took another breath to calm himself before going on. “The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I’ve heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought …. It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old.


Rand should of listening and followed Thom & Moiraine's advice, but he didn't of course. Which also implies that Rand's interpretation of this particular vision of Min is incorrect in tGS book:

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.

Moridin should be that other man described above in Min's vision above, not L.T.T as Rand believes him to be in tGS book.

FelixPax
12-03-2009, 09:53 PM
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.

Whoever said Mesaana was using as cover an Aes Sedai identity? For all we know, Mesaana could be an Accepted who are not subject to the 'three oaths'. Lanfear once played the part of a Novice, Else Grinwell when it served her own purposes with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne. Or do as Moghedien did previously become a servant as cover, and for relative freedom.

One advantage of being a servant for Mesaana would be a separate set of stairs to move around the White Tower, and not to be subject to the whims of Aes Sedai as readily. Moghedien got out of doing any work as a servant when she was following Liandrin's BA group, why not Mesaana too?


I thought it was interesting that it was expressed noted in tGS book, that servants did not take care of the area of the White Tower where the Black Ajah Hunters Sitters met at, in the lowest levels. Is that one reason why Mesaana didn't learn of the BA Hunters, and dismissed Alviarin's claims of danger to the Black Ajah earlier?

Maze
12-04-2009, 07:22 AM
Whoever said Mesaana was using as cover an Aes Sedai identity? For all we know, Mesaana could be an Accepted who are not subject to the 'three oaths'. Lanfear once played the part of a Novice, Else Grinwell when it served her own purposes with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne. Or do as Moghedien did previously become a servant as cover, and for relative freedom.

I did, didn't you read? :p, luckily I don't invent the story lines though, still means that I'm not necessarily right by default.. although my contract with my god-complex entitles me to being right 9 out of 10 times....

One advantage of being a servant for Mesaana would be a separate set of stairs to move around the White Tower, and not to be subject to the whims of Aes Sedai as readily. Moghedien got out of doing any work as a servant when she was following Liandrin's BA group, why not Mesaana too?

Servsaana? in my opinion, I don't buy it... for one, her character is different than Moghediens ... and Moggy is the only 'chosen' we know who posed a servant. Other forsaken we know of posed as rulers of people of influence. that doesn't mean she is posing as Mattin Stephanos (the only ruler in the tower, unless I forgot him (her) leaving from the tower, which is possible) right?


I thought it was interesting that it was expressed noted in tGS book, that servants did not take care of the area of the White Tower where the Black Ajah Hunters Sitters met at, in the lowest levels. Is that one reason why Mesaana didn't learn of the BA Hunters, and dismissed Alviarin's claims of danger to the Black Ajah earlier?

no that means that the servants are a lazy bunch? :p Still I stick with the KISS (Keep It Simple, Sucker) principle.... besides there could be dozens of reasons why the passage of servants not cleaning the lower basements where added to the books ... for instance creating a mood? something that is both RJ and BS strong points?

Bonzi77
12-04-2009, 07:41 AM
Whoever said Mesaana was using as cover an Aes Sedai identity? For all we know, Mesaana could be an Accepted who are not subject to the 'three oaths'. Lanfear once played the part of a Novice, Else Grinwell when it served her own purposes with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne. Or do as Moghedien did previously become a servant as cover, and for relative freedom.

One advantage of being a servant for Mesaana would be a separate set of stairs to move around the White Tower, and not to be subject to the whims of Aes Sedai as readily. Moghedien got out of doing any work as a servant when she was following Liandrin's BA group, why not Mesaana too?


I thought it was interesting that it was expressed noted in tGS book, that servants did not take care of the area of the White Tower where the Black Ajah Hunters Sitters met at, in the lowest levels. Is that one reason why Mesaana didn't learn of the BA Hunters, and dismissed Alviarin's claims of danger to the Black Ajah earlier?

It's been brought up before, but I don't buy it. For one thing, RJ said that we have seen Mesaana's alter-ego and that we should be able to figure out who it is. There's simply not a servant, novice or accepted that fits that criteria that we've seen enough of to fit that criteria. For another, Mesaana needs to be able to wield influence and that's much harder to do as a non AS in the tower. Nobody is going to pay any attention to suggestions from a novice or accepted or cook or whatever, short of Compulsion. If she simply wanted to compel everyone to her will, she wouldn't need an alter-ego at all.

EDIT: And more conclusively, when Alviarin hits the panic button to summon Mesaana, she's wearing a fine dress, which wouldn't be the case if she was a tower underling of any sort.

Solmancer
12-04-2009, 01:34 PM
The further the point, I think Graendal is very much capable of figuring out what the others are up to. Both Moghedien and she seem to be quite capable of making information networks for themselves, and even Moridin acknowledged that Graendal was probably the more skillful at it. Given that, I really do think what we know about Mesaana from her viewpoint is correct: Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower.


There are some things baking my noodle right now:
- Who are the three named sisters Egwene felt didn't fit Mesaana's alter-ego? Are they agents of Cadsuane's perhaps? She did seem to be somewhat informed about goings on in the Tower and Rebel camps; I can't see her NOT planting sisters to keep apprised of events.

- What did Mesaana mean when more and more people were joining the cause, "some unwittingly"? Were they coerced into joining the Black (by her perhaps)? Or is it something a bit more sinister?

- How is (was) Graendal spying on the White Tower? Did she Compel Aes Sedai to report to her indirectly? She's been in the Tower before, as we know: her, Lanfear and Mesaana each. Were the three names given in the epilogue her agents/spies?