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One Armed Gimp
11-10-2009, 08:54 AM
I don't think Rand will survive the LB. I take this now to mean that in order to stop the DO from possibly using him to destroy the pattern, Rand must die. Thats that, the end.

To be honest, I think I will be disappointed if he does live beyond it.

Besides, is it just me, or during the book did anyone else secretly hope that someone would just walk up and stab him. I found his new attitude overly annoying in some parts.

Tarcanus
11-10-2009, 09:48 AM
No, I actually found it to be the logical progression of Rand's character, considering all of the traumatic things that have happened to him over the course of WoT. I feel terribly sad when I think of Rand.

Terez
11-10-2009, 10:05 AM
You should join my faction. Rand will die. (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=183) :)

lurk
11-10-2009, 10:11 AM
I actually love Rands decent into "subhuman erm discourtious ;) " behaviour. He is under tremendous stress, he is only human albeit with the immortal dragon soul.

Makes him more and more 3 dimensional

One Armed Gimp
11-10-2009, 10:44 AM
You should join my faction. Rand will die. (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=183) :)

Done, as ZT of course.

Terez
11-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Yay! :)

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 11:27 AM
I don't think Rand will survive the LB. I take this now to mean that in order to stop the DO from possibly using him to destroy the pattern, Rand must die. Thats that, the end.


I had the exact same thought. Basically, "To live [ever again] you must die."

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:28 AM
Yeah, I have argued the same for a couple of years, and Callandor used to argue that as well. I'm starting to think Rand will be ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod after he dies, though. Lots of foreshadowing for that.

Davian93
11-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Yeah, I have argued the same for a couple of years, and Callandor used to argue that as well. I'm starting to think Rand will be ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod after he dies, though. Lots of foreshadowing for that.

Or death will be healed. There's foreshadowing for that as well.

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Or death will be healed. There's foreshadowing for that as well.
Nah, the foreshadowing for death being Healed all points to Nynaeve ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Having a way to Heal death would be retarded.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 11:46 AM
Nah, the foreshadowing for death being Healed all points to Nynaeve ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Having a way to Heal death would be retarded.'Retarded' is a diagnose that would fit AS quite well, and Nynaeve is AS now.

Davian93
11-10-2009, 11:48 AM
Nah, the foreshadowing for death being Healed all points to Nynaeve ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Having a way to Heal death would be retarded.

Ripping out of TAR is too easy. I'd much rather see Nynaeve end up healing someone "three days dead".

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2009, 11:50 AM
Ripping out of TAR is too easy. I'd much rather see Nynaeve end up healing someone "three days dead".Which will then revive all Rand's issues, since that would mean that he could have saved that girl in the Stone after all. :p

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Too easy? Healing would be 'too easy', as it could be used on anyone. Death and rebirth are a part of the way the world works. Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod are a special case. If Nynaeve finds a way to Heal death other than that, I'll puke. And burn all my WoT books.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 11:56 AM
Ripping out of TAR is too easy. I'd much rather see Nynaeve end up healing someone "three days dead".

That wouldn't really be "Rand" then as much as it would be an amalgamation of the Dragon soul. I'd find that a little off putting in a way I can't put my finger on.

Terez
11-10-2009, 11:57 AM
He pretty much already is, since the integration.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 11:59 AM
He pretty much already is, since the integration.

I suppose that's true. But we've yet to see how that will play out and whether or not he will retain his state of personal omniscience.

Terez
11-10-2009, 12:01 PM
Well, he'll at least retain Lews Therin's memories, which makes him more than 'just Rand'. But of course, that's been true ever since he started getting the memories. It's the same person, though, no matter the name and face.

Bonzi77
11-10-2009, 12:05 PM
Well, he'll at least retain Lews Therin's memories, which makes him more than 'just Rand'. But of course, that's been true ever since he started getting the memories. It's the same person, though, no matter the name and face.

But the trials and tribulations of who we've become attached to are all contained in Rand's story and the part we know about Lews Therin. It would just be weird to me to see that reduced to a subset of a larger thing. Just my own personal feelings.

I think the only way this happens is if they determine that Birgitte goes back to hero of the wheel status when she dies again. Because it seems catastrophically stupid to remove the Dragon from future ages.

One Armed Gimp
11-10-2009, 12:08 PM
If Nynaeve finds a way to Heal death other than that, I'll puke.

+1

Not sure I could bring myself to burn all my WoT books. I would definitely burn the pages concerning her healing death. The books would however join my Harry Potter and Dark Tower books on the shelf, never to be read again. (Damn Stephen King for tempting me to read that last chapter, if only I had heeded the warning.)

Let's be honest though, while we can not know how Rand is going to be after the integration, we do know that Rand has been going insane. Given this, would anyone really want to resurrect him.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 12:18 PM
Nah, the foreshadowing for death being Healed all points to Nynaeve ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod.
No matter how hard I try, I cannot force this sentence to make any sense.

Terez
11-10-2009, 01:24 PM
No matter how hard I try, I cannot force this sentence to make any sense.
There is foreshadowing that Nynaeve will Heal death. However, having a way to Heal death would be supremely lame. Therefore, she will 'Heal' death by ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies.

I think the only way this happens is if they determine that Birgitte goes back to hero of the wheel status when she dies again. Because it seems catastrophically stupid to remove the Dragon from future ages.
Birgitte wasn't 'removed from future Ages' when she was ripped out - her natural cycle was interrupted, so that she'll be older than Gaidal (since he is currently a baby). I presume she'll be spun out like normal next time, though it could be that she'll always be older than Gaidal from now on. But there is nothing to indicate that she is no longer a Hero - in face, Min's viewings about her imply otherwise.

Since Rand is currently alive, if he dies and then gets ripped out, it won't be a bad thing at all. It would just be as if he had been resurrected - nothing catastrophic like Birgitte's cycle being thrown out of whack.

Belazamon
11-10-2009, 01:32 PM
There is foreshadowing that Nynaeve will Heal death. However, having a way to Heal death would be supremely lame. Therefore, she will 'Heal' death by ripping Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies.
Okay, I thought maybe you had some actual textual evidence that "Healing death" and "ripping someone out of TAR" were somehow equivalent. I wasn't really expecting the "supremely lame" argument, I guess.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2009, 01:36 PM
Let's be honest though, while we can not know how Rand is going to be after the integration, we do know that Rand has been going insane. Given this, would anyone really want to resurrect him.
Zombie Rand! It's bound to happen.



Birgitte wasn't 'removed from future Ages' when she was ripped out - her natural cycle was interrupted, so that she'll be older than Gaidal (since he is currently a baby). I presume she'll be spun out like normal next time, though it could be that she'll always be older than Gaidal from now on. But there is nothing to indicate that she is no longer a Hero - in face, Min's viewings about her imply otherwise.

How can you be so sure about this? We know wolves that die in Wolf Dream are dead forever. If Birgitte was literally torn out of the Dream World, and she dies in the Real World, I'm guessing she's dead forever. Indeed, this would justify that precepts that Heroes aren't supposed to talk to regular people--it's way too dangerous.

There could be a discovery of how to get Birgitte back into the Dream World the right way, and that could lead to the Rand scenario. Otherwise, it seems awfully risky.

Alternately, Rand is called back by the Horn, which has to make an appearance someday again, doesn't it? Or maybe not... Kind of a dumb weapon to leave unused, though.

Terez
11-10-2009, 01:44 PM
Yeah, well.....I argued the 'Rand will die and only come back via the Horn' thing for a couple of years, and everyone seemed to think that was ridiculous. Now that I'm arguing something different, everyone seems to love the Horn idea, lol....

Also, Birgitte was ripped out - I don't think that the permanent death thing applies any more....and Min's viewings seem to suggest that she will not get put back.

One Armed Gimp
11-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Yeah, Mins viewings are key here as we know they are only future events and not past. Min's viewings also indicate Bridgette's continued connection to Gaidal.

Kurtz
11-10-2009, 03:00 PM
I think there's been enough to suggest that in some fashion Rand will be around after the last battle. Not entirely sure how it would work though.

As an aside, Tam's little cameo was enough to confirm, in my opinion, that his prequel will be written.

matrimzombie
11-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Zombie Rand! It's bound to happen.


Dude, he's going to die in Hinderstap. DUH.

Tarcanus
11-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Too easy? Healing would be 'too easy', as it could be used on anyone. Death and rebirth are a part of the way the world works. Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod are a special case. If Nynaeve finds a way to Heal death other than that, I'll puke. And burn all my WoT books.


I'll hold you to that bet.




When it comes to a Hero that was ripped out of TAR, I want to say that great deeds during their original lives were what got them made into Heroes to begin with, and that they remained Heroes because in each of their lives they did amazing things. With this logic in mind, the fact that Birgitte was ripped out means nothing since she's still the same re-spun soul and will undoubtedly do something amazing in her current run in Randland - thus getting her back into Hero status - if she didn't retain it during the ripping. The same could happen to Rand.

ShadowbaneX
11-10-2009, 04:09 PM
Yeah, well.....I argued the 'Rand will die and only come back via the Horn' thing for a couple of years, and everyone seemed to think that was ridiculous. Now that I'm arguing something different, everyone seems to love the Horn idea.

Actually, quite a while back I argued for both the Sounding of the Horn and the ripping out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod, but that was a few Ages ago.

Terez
11-10-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm sure you argued everything Ages ago, SBX. I'm sure you could even give links.

ShadowbaneX
11-10-2009, 04:14 PM
links, no. Most of them were eaten by hamsters, but yes, I have argued everything, even Taimendred and Asmodean's Killer, but I'm smarter now. I even found that little hint that Brandon was talking about, back in the days of aCoS, but I've since forgotten what it was. I came, I saw and I got the t-shirt and the coffee mug...twice!

I'm that awesome.

markerikson
11-14-2009, 07:00 PM
Hi, brand new here, but once upon a time I was a regular on rasfwr-j. Reading tGS has put me back in the mood for some WOT theorising, and my old haunt is dead.

I've had this theory about the whole "to live, you must die" thing knocking around in my head for a while. Initially, it was totally loony, but as the books have gone on it has seemed less and less so.

Egwene has a dream in which she sees Logain stepping over Rand's corpse, laughing. Rand's corpse then crumbles and blows away like leaves. I interpreted this, long ago, to suggest that Rand would die, but his soul would be transplanted into Logain's body.

We know that soul transplants are possible, albeit at this point only via the DO. We also know that bodies can be made soulless by drakgar, and by Machin Shin. RJ also said that we would be finding out a lot more about soulless bodies in the final few books. So it is not to great a stretch to assume that soul transplants might also be possible using the OP, and that Rand (with the help of Alivia) might get one.

When Tuon started musing about Rand not being blind yet, and that he would weep over his own grave in "A Halo of Blackness", I thought I had final proof. Of course, the events of "Veins of Gold" seemed to fulfill the passage from the Essanik Cycle. But, I'm not 100% sure it did. Rand was laughing, not weeping. The winds were not the winds of the Last Battle, but just a small tempest kicked up by Rand. I have a feeling that it was quite cleverly made to look like a prophecy had been fulfilled, but hadn't (just like the "into the heart" prophecy...although that's an entirely different loony theory).

I suspect that Rand will still actually go blind. And that he won't see again until he is in Logain's body, when he will stand on his own grave and weep.

JSUCamel
11-14-2009, 07:20 PM
I suspect that Rand will still actually go blind. And that he won't see again until he is in Logain's body, when he will stand on his own grave and weep.

I've never really thought too hard about the "to live you must die" thing, but to me, Rand's blindness was his inability to see why he was so important and what his duty REALLY is. The blindness was lifted, I thought, when Rand had the epiphany on Dragonmount. The whole "I once was blind, but now I see" thing.

That was my interpretation. I wasn't thinking of literal blindness.

I'm also pretty sure that for one reason or another we've ruled out the Logain thing, but I don't recall why.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2009, 04:09 AM
Maybe because if we do go the Logain route, then Rand will end up bonding or being bonded by every single living AS?

ArtK
11-15-2009, 08:07 AM
Nobody seems to have mentioned (AFAIK) how the "Death of Tuon" forshadows another type of "death" for the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps Rand will simply give up the identity of the Dragon (no longer needed after he "kills" the DO), and become simple Rand Al'Thor.

legends be wrought
11-15-2009, 01:04 PM
Nobody seems to have mentioned (AFAIK) how the "Death of Tuon" forshadows another type of "death" for the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps Rand will simply give up the identity of the Dragon (no longer needed after he "kills" the DO), and become simple Rand Al'Thor.

That seems like an interesting theory. However, as long as he positions himself near power, people will still see him as the dragon, and not as Rand alThor. If he was to become a farmer or something then maybe i could see this happening. He could give up the throne of Illian, and proclaim himself no longer the DR, giving up all power. However, i find it unlikely that he will separate from Elayne and his children if he has the opportunity to settle down after the last battle.

JSUCamel
11-15-2009, 04:43 PM
That seems like an interesting theory. However, as long as he positions himself near power, people will still see him as the dragon, and not as Rand alThor. If he was to become a farmer or something then maybe i could see this happening. He could give up the throne of Illian, and proclaim himself no longer the DR, giving up all power. However, i find it unlikely that he will separate from Elayne and his children if he has the opportunity to settle down after the last battle.

Considering the Arthurian prophecy with Rand being led or sent off into the mists while three women look on... something like that.. I think it's actually pretty likely that he'll give up everything after the Last Battle, assuming he survives.

Terez
11-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Considering the Arthurian prophecy with Rand being led or sent off into the mists while three women look on... something like that..
Wat?

isamu237
11-15-2009, 07:51 PM
I should really look stuff up, but I'm tired and lazy so I'll see how it goes from memory...

First off, was there not some hint, from some out of book source, that Rand was one of the unattributed Fourth Age scholars periodically quoted at the beginning and end of the books? Or was that just wild speculation?

There are a several Foretellings, Dreams and Viewings of Rand lying in a boat or on a funeral byre with three women around him. But there was no certainty in any of those visions that he was actually dead. Looked dead, seemed dead, etc.

I think the thought that Rand MUST die stems from confusion that the Last Battle is the LAST Battle. As Herid Fel said, this can't possibly be the LAST Battle; the Wheel, you see? Tarmon Gaidon isn't some great climatic, be-all and end-all showdown with the Creator's hero versus the Dark One. This is merely the climax of the end of this particular Age. To wit, why MUST the Dragon die at the end of this Age when he did not at the end of the last? True, he died shortly after due to the madness, but he survived the actual "Last Battle" (the strike at Shayol Ghul) of the last Age.

As for the 'finn answer, "To live, you must die": To have a life, the world must think you dead.

JSUCamel
11-15-2009, 07:59 PM
There are a several Foretellings, Dreams and Viewings of Rand lying in a boat or on a funeral byre with three women around him. But there was no certainty in any of those visions that he was actually dead. Looked dead, seemed dead, etc.

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of.

As for the 'finn answer, "To live, you must die": To have a life, the world must think you dead.

I agree. And I think this idea that Rand will give up everything and retire to a farm in the Two Rivers has merit. It would certainly fit the dream/vision/whatever, if in a metaphorical and not literal way.

Terez
11-15-2009, 08:04 PM
I doubt it highly. There are too many things that point to him actually dying. There is at least one way to bring him back from the dead, but the 'Finns clearly said he has to die, and Min has had at least one viewing saying he has to die as well.

ArtK
11-15-2009, 09:26 PM
I doubt it highly. There are too many things that point to him actually dying. There is at least one way to bring him back from the dead, but the 'Finns clearly said he has to die, and Min has had at least one viewing saying he has to die as well.

If these are prophesies, remember that the "old tongue" tends to be highly metaphorical by "modern" standards, and translators are liable to interpret such according to their own preconceptions. This brings us to the nature of prophesy: are there any recent threads discussing this? Links?

I don't recall any viewing of Min's besides the one about Alivia, which certainly seems consistent with the the metaphorical interpretation. Thus, Selucia helped Tuon "die".

Davian93
11-15-2009, 09:33 PM
I doubt it highly. There are too many things that point to him actually dying. There is at least one way to bring him back from the dead, but the 'Finns clearly said he has to die, and Min has had at least one viewing saying he has to die as well.

Well, let's be honest, everyone eventually dies. Rand is no different. Maybe Alivia "helps him die" when he's 700 years old.

Weird Harold
11-15-2009, 11:41 PM
Well, let's be honest, everyone eventually dies. Rand is no different. Maybe Alivia "helps him die" when he's 700 years old.
Maybe Alivia's surname is Kevorkian? :D

natural1dave
11-16-2009, 08:56 AM
Nobody seems to have mentioned (AFAIK) how the "Death of Tuon" forshadows another type of "death" for the Dragon Reborn. Perhaps Rand will simply give up the identity of the Dragon (no longer needed after he "kills" the DO), and become simple Rand Al'Thor.

This actually works quite well if the other theory of no more saidar/saidin channeling due to the sealing of the bore pans out.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 09:05 AM
I wonder if Alivia is a darkfriend...that would be too funny.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 09:47 AM
I wonder if Alivia is a darkfriend...that would be too funny.

Then she has been an extremely busy lady since being freed from the sul'dam.

Considering how Suroth still felt about marath'damane I doubt that Senchan Darkfriends would have viewed Alivia or damane in general as worth recruiting.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Then she has been an extremely busy lady since being freed from the sul'dam.

Considering how Suroth still felt about marath'damane I doubt that Senchan Darkfriends would have viewed Alivia or damane in general as worth recruiting.

I agree its a very very longshot and that I really don't think its the case but it'd still be funny.

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 10:31 AM
Then she has been an extremely busy lady since being freed from the sul'dam.

Considering how Suroth still felt about marath'damane I doubt that Senchan Darkfriends would have viewed Alivia or damane in general as worth recruiting.

Agreed that the darkfriend thing is unlikely for that exact reason, but I feel like there's got to be something more to her. How does one maintain that strong of a will over several centuries as a damane? Even Egwene felt herself on the verge of breaking after a MUCH shorter period of time.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 10:35 AM
Strong will?
And we don't know whether she was an obedient damane or not do we?

Also, on a similar subject - how do you think the Shaido Wise Ones are taking to their new situation?

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 10:44 AM
Strong will?
And we don't know whether she was an obedient damane or not do we?

Also, on a similar subject - how do you think the Shaido Wise Ones are taking to their new situation?

Strong will? Relatively, yes. She's not a blubbering idiot who immediately wanted to the leash back on, she's expressed a desire for vengeance, and she's been fairly persistent asking to be taught new weaves. Compared to the other unleashed damane we've seen, she's light years ahead.

If she wasn't obedient, that would have meant years and years of what equates to psychological and physical torture. She's 400 years old and she was collared in her early teens. I doubt anyone could survive that with her will intact.

DahLliA
11-16-2009, 10:51 AM
I got a feeling Rand will survive the last battle in some way or another. as Tam said. the pattern should give him a break after all the crap he's had to take :p

oh and I agree with camel on the blindness being lifted on top of dragonmount. he is in a sense standing on his own grave then (and they did stick that part of the prophecy right after :p )

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 10:57 AM
Alivia may have simply believed the standard propaganda. In that case, her will didn't need to be broken, as she would have been following what seemed right to her anyway from the moment she was collared. Only after she was set free and taught that things aren't quite as the Seanchan see them did she start thinking about the experience differently.
I think that if she were to be collared now, that it would be far more traumatic.

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 11:07 AM
Alivia may have simply believed the standard propaganda. In that case, her will didn't need to be broken, as she would have been following what seemed right to her anyway from the moment she was collared. Only after she was set free and taught that things aren't quite as the Seanchan see them did she start thinking about the experience differently.
I think that if she were to be collared now, that it would be far more traumatic.

So she was able to cast off something she believed for 400 years in a matter of days? That doesn't seem at all consistent with what we've seen from any other character in the books, damane or not. And it's certainly different than any of the other uncollared damane we've seen (unless I'm forgetting something). There was a deliberate decision made by RJ to offer her as a contrast to the other damane, and I feel like there has to be an underlying reason for that.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 11:19 AM
Masema cast off his anti-Aiel prejudice pretty quick.
The Aiel Wise Ones dropped their "no non-Aiel may enter Rhuidean" pretty quick too.
Egeanin lost her anti-AS prejudice fairly soon after having met some (as she thought Nynaeve and Elayne were). This seems a particularly relevant example.

LewsTherin10
11-16-2009, 11:29 AM
The way Min explains her viewing as Alivia will "help him die" is quite strange. It almost puts a positive connotation on what's going to happen. Otherwise, don't you think she should have said it a different way. "Hey Rand, Alivia's going to cause your death." or "Be careful of Alivia. She's going to be the one resonsible for your death."
By using the word "help" it makes it seem like he either wants to die or perhaps she will be involved the pretension of his death.

Any thoughts?

Crispin's Crispian
11-16-2009, 11:31 AM
The way Min explains her viewing as Alivia will "help him die" is quite strange. It almost puts a positive connotation on what's going to happen. Otherwise, don't you think she should have said it a different way. "Hey Rand, Alivia's going to cause your death." or "Be careful of Alivia. She's going to be the one resonsible for your death."
By using the word "help" it makes it seem like he either wants to die or perhaps she will be involved the pretension of his death.

Any thoughts?
I agree, most definitely. It is even reinforced by the Law of Irony, as Rand interprets it immediately as meaning Alivia is going to kill him. What remains to be seen is how fine the distinction is.

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 12:04 PM
Masema cast off his anti-Aiel prejudice pretty quick.
The Aiel Wise Ones dropped their "no non-Aiel may enter Rhuidean" pretty quick too.
Egeanin lost her anti-AS prejudice fairly soon after having met some (as she thought Nynaeve and Elayne were). This seems a particularly relevant example.

I'm drawing a blank on Masema and the Aiel. What happened to lead you to believe he accepted them?

The Aiel wise ones were able to do that because they knew prophecies that basically stated "this has to happen." The Aiel at large were vehemently against letting non Aiel being allowed in.

Egeanin is a good point, but again, she was almost provided as a contrast to highlight the views of the other Seanchan. Plus, even she clung to her cultural beliefs even when one of her rulers cast her down. And she wasn't 400 years old.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm drawing a blank on Masema and the Aiel. What happened to lead you to believe he accepted them?He may or may not be happy about other Aiel, but his attitude towards Rand changed remarkably in a very short time.

The Aiel wise ones were able to do that because they knew prophecies that basically stated "this has to happen." The Aiel at large were vehemently against letting non Aiel being allowed in.Which prophecy that any Aiel knew about said that Mat had to be allowed to go to Rhuidean?

Egeanin is a good point, but again, she was almost provided as a contrast to highlight the views of the other Seanchan. Plus, even she clung to her cultural beliefs even when one of her rulers cast her down. And she wasn't 400 years old.Yes, so not many others can do it, either. It would take almost a ta'veren to pick a damane out of the entire Seanchan army who can make this switch. And whaddoyouknow? The strongest ta'veren available, Rand al'Thor, was indeed heavily involved in the military campaign in which Alivia was captured.

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 12:33 PM
He may or may not be happy about other Aiel, but his attitude towards Rand changed remarkably in a very short time.

He's insane. And I believe the prologue implied that someone was manipulating him.


Which prophecy that any Aiel knew about said that Mat had to be allowed to go to Rhuidean?

Not Mat, Rand. Rand insisted on Mat coming with him. They needed Rand to go and he wouldn't go without Mat.

Yes, so not many others can do it, either. It would take almost a ta'veren to pick a damane out of the entire Seanchan army who can make this switch. And whaddoyouknow? The strongest ta'veren available, Rand al'Thor, was indeed heavily involved in the military campaign in which Alivia was captured.

Good point, that. But Rand's ta'veren pull explains how he came to encounter her, not why she is the way she is. She's a huge juxtaposition to every other damane we've seen. There's got to be a reason for it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 02:58 PM
He's insane. And I believe the prologue implied that someone was manipulating him.Yes, and that someone was almost certainly a Forsaken. But I seriously doubt that same Forsaken was messing with his mind in TGH, let alone before that.

Not Mat, Rand. Rand insisted on Mat coming with him. They needed Rand to go and he wouldn't go without Mat.They could have argued with him a lot longer. On other occasions, they did. Now they just changed their minds.
Compare that to Rhuarc, who had been hardly willing to do more than merely confirm that the name "Rhuidean" referred to some real place. Yet he too had known that if Rand was He Who Comes With The Dawn (something no Aiel was sure of, at the time this happened), then Rand had to go there.

Good point, that. But Rand's ta'veren pull explains how he came to encounter her, not why she is the way she is. She's a huge juxtaposition to every other damane we've seen. There's got to be a reason for it.As I've said before (usually in another context): you are all individuals.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Agreed that the darkfriend thing is unlikely for that exact reason, but I feel like there's got to be something more to her. How does one maintain that strong of a will over several centuries as a damane? Even Egwene felt herself on the verge of breaking after a MUCH shorter period of time.
I can't believe no one else sees it.

ALIVIANDRED!

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 03:33 PM
I can't believe no one else sees it.

ALIVIANDRED!Repped. :D:D:D
EDIT: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Belazamon again.
Then again, maybe not...

ArtK
11-16-2009, 09:51 PM
Considering how Suroth still felt about marath'damane I doubt that Senchan Darkfriends would have viewed Alivia or damane in general as worth recruiting.

Maybe not, but if ordered they would have obeyed. Don't forget that Ishmael was running the whole organization until the rest were freed. For that matter, we don't know whether the Black Ajah had lost the knowledge of traveling at the time Alivia was young. Perhaps one of them was ordered to the Empire (or whatever it was then) for just that reason. And Ishmael didn't have such prejudices.

I'd say it's unlikely (but not impossible) that a whole organization of "black damane" exists within the Seanchan Empire, simply because it's too late in the series for such a revelation. But a handful originally attached to the BA is plausible.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 10:36 PM
There are no original (Seanchan) damane Darkfriends. You have to be recruited to be a Darkfriend, presumably for some selfish purpose. Damane are raised to believe they are animals, and have no visions of power or advancement. Exactly what can you promise to a damane to convert them to Darkfriend? It sure as hell can't be freedom.

"If you channel in the name of the Great Lord, I'll give you some ribbons for your hair and you'll get an extra honeycake for dinner!"

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 10:45 PM
There are no original (Seanchan) damane Darkfriends. You have to be recruited to be a Darkfriend, presumably for some selfish purpose. Damane are raised to believe they are animals, and have no visions of power or advancement. Exactly what can you promise to a damane to convert them to Darkfriend? It sure as hell can't be freedom.

"If you channel in the name of the Great Lord, I'll give you some ribbons for your hair and you'll get an extra honeycake for dinner!"By original, they mean when Hawkwin's son first arrived in Seandar.

Mat is Better
11-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Yeah, I have argued the same for a couple of years, and Callandor used to argue that as well. I'm starting to think Rand will be ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod after he dies, though. Lots of foreshadowing for that.
My brother and I have had that theory for years.

Terez
11-16-2009, 11:31 PM
I've considered it before, but wasn't really convinced until we were reminded again in this book that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to remember it. Also, I was thinking that Rand would die and stay dead, but the more he wishes otherwise, the more I'm thinking he won't.

Mat is Better
11-16-2009, 11:34 PM
Can I join this Rand will die group? I've always believed this literally and I think I'd be a little disappointed if he didn't die.

Terez
11-16-2009, 11:42 PM
Can I join this Rand will die group?
Yes you may. (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=183)

ArtK
11-17-2009, 08:23 AM
There are no original (Seanchan) damane Darkfriends. You have to be recruited to be a Darkfriend, presumably for some selfish purpose. Damane are raised to believe they are animals, and have no visions of power or advancement. Exactly what can you promise to a damane to convert them to Darkfriend? It sure as hell can't be freedom.

"If you channel in the name of the Great Lord, I'll give you some ribbons for your hair and you'll get an extra honeycake for dinner!"

Remember that a woman who can channel could be turned to the DO without her consent, using a circle of thirteen BA and thirteen myrddraal. Once turned, she could be collared with a modified adam that allowed her to free herself, or perhaps even channel without a sul'dam.

I admit it's sort of far-fetched, but not impossible.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 08:27 AM
Yeah, but why go to the trouble when you can do just as well with a DF sul'dam?
Of course, you can do even better if one of the Blood is a DF, as Suroth showed clearly.