PDA

View Full Version : My own Rand-LTT voice thoughts - It's always been about Ilyena


Yellowbeard
11-10-2009, 02:29 PM
For anybody who cares what a noob thinks of the LTT voice in Rand's head...

I guess I'm thinking elements of the construct theory are right, elements of the realer theory are right, and then a few things not addressed in either. Hope this doesn't come out too convoluted.

I think the LTT voice was Rand's mind's way of dealing with things he was in denial about. Not very earth shaking idea there.

As AoL-LTT memories came back to Rand, obviously his mind built the LTT personality/voice around those memories. It's my own personal opinion that the LTT personality/voice is representative of the actual LTT personality in the AoL at the moment of LTT's death via suicide.

The LTT voice was quite insane, but I don't think it was taint-induced insanity. I think it was grief induced. LTT had been healed of taint-madness by Ishamael, but he was overcome by grief caused by the realization of the Kinslaying, in particular Ilyena. The fact that he committed suicide shows that he was in a rather irrational state of mind despite having been healed of taint madness. So when Rand's mind began to experience the AoL memories, it "restarted" LTT's personality as a voice in Rand's head.

That voice/personality, I now believe, was always locked into the same state of extreme distress it was in when LTT committed suicide - i.e. it was in extreme grief due to Ilyena's killing. That's why the voice was always so distraught by and focused on Ilyena's death/murder. If the LTT personality was insane due to other reasons, then it would have focused on other things.

I also believe the underlying guilt over Ilyena's murder was hardwired into Rand's subconsciousness all along. That's why Rand kept the list of women that died for him in his head. That's why he couldn't bring himself to harm or kill a woman. Or more accurately, he couldn't bring himself to harm or kill another woman again, and had such a rough time with women being harmed or dying in his service. Such events re-triggered his grief over Ilyena's death on a subconscious level and it just plain hurt him too much to bear.

Subconscious guilt and grief over murdering Ilyena is the underlying component that drove Rand's madness, more than the taint even, I think now. It forced him to distance himself from it by denying he was LTT reborn, and that denial is what re-booted the LTT personality to start with. He couldn't accept that he did it, that he murdered Ilyena, even though it was in a fit of taint induced madness and he had no control over it.

Rand's re-integration of personalities doesn't happen until he makes peace with himself over Ilyena's killing. Looking back now thru all the books, I'm surprised I didn't see it coming. Rand (not the LTT voice) has been carrying his own guilt over Ilyena's killing since he started having AoL memories. He repressed it, built a separate personality to deal with it, and literally drove himself insane via denial and grief. In order to re-integrate, he had to fix the root cause, which his guilt and grief over Ilyena's killing.

He finally came to the realization that even though Ilyena's AoL incarnation was killed, she could be reborn and live again. So she's not really gone forever. He realizes that everything isn't over for her, and never will be (barring some sort of highly unlikely intervention from the DO). After that realization, he is able to finally accept that he genuinely is LTT reborn, that he did commit the Kinslaying, that he did kill Ilyena, AND make peace with himself over doing those things.

In coming to terms with his grief over Ilyena's killing, he fixes the root cause of his split personality, therefore healing his mind and re-intergrating himself.

I think the dicussions about the LTT voice have been missing something. I think the LTT voice and Rand solving that particular issue has always been about Ilyena and whether Rand could come to terms with what he did as his LTT incarnation.

Terez
11-10-2009, 02:31 PM
You are a constructor, though you seem to not want to admit it. I have been harping the Ilyena point for years...

Yellowbeard
11-10-2009, 02:34 PM
You are a constructor, though you seem to not want to admit it. I have been harping the Ilyena point for years...

If it's any consolation then, I don't consider myself a true "realer" either.:D

Terez
11-10-2009, 02:40 PM
lol, obviously!

Terez
11-10-2009, 04:28 PM
Here's a link in-thread (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/40299/t/Lews-Therin-A-Character-Analysis.html#reply-40299) to a post where I talk about this in my Lews Therin character analysis. The entire thread is a headache to read, though. That post isn't the only place where I mentioned it, but it is the first post I came across where I really summed up your points (the Battle of Cairhien was really a good exposť for the construct theory).

Consequently, I found my new sig quote in that thread. I crack up every time I read it, and it occurred to me this time that it was quite siggable.

Yellowbeard
11-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Not many people seem to care about the Ilyena inspired aspects of Rand's issues, though. It's just not mentioned much in most threads.

I guess the main thing I don't like about 'construct' theory is the title. I don't think LTT is a construct. Constructs are something new, in the context in which it is used.

I think of LTT as more of a re-booted personality instead. Rand's mind turned the LTT personality back on to compartmentalize the things he couldn't accept. I think the LTT personality was always buried in Rand's mind. It never needed to be constructed again.

crue
11-11-2009, 10:02 AM
This seem to imply that a soul stores each individual personality instead of reintegration at death. I just can't accept that personalities are stored in any fashion.

Terez
11-11-2009, 10:03 AM
Not many people seem to care about the Ilyena inspired aspects of Rand's issues, though. It's just not mentioned much in most threads.

I guess the main thing I don't like about 'construct' theory is the title. I don't think LTT is a construct. Constructs are something new, in the context in which it is used.
You contradict yourself:

As AoL-LTT memories came back to Rand, obviously his mind built the LTT personality/voice around those memories.
To build is to construct. We've always said that the voice was constructed partly using Lews Therin's memories as a basis. Problem is, the 'voice' rarely communicates the memories - those almost always come directly to Rand. The 'voice' expresses thoughts and emotions that Rand is trying to suppress.

In other words, the 'voice' doesn't accurately represent Lews Therin, and never has - the real Lews Therin is Rand. The 'voice' is the parts of himself that he can't deal with.

Terez
11-11-2009, 10:05 AM
This seem to imply that a soul stores each individual personality instead of reintegration at death. I just can't accept that personalities are stored in any fashion.
Well, we know that the memories are stored - Birgitte is a perfect example of that, and of course, Rand's remembrance of his own past life is an example as well (though obviously it was unnatural for him to start remembering his past life - that's where theories like taint barrier degradation come in). So I'm not sure what you're getting at?

crue
11-11-2009, 10:25 AM
I know that memories are stored. There are plenty of examples. I take an issue with an entire 'personality' being stored and available for use at a later time.
It always made more sense to me that Rand would construct a personality to deal with the memories, stress, and thoughts of impending insanity instead of LTT popping up, straight from the AOL in his head.

Yellowbeard
11-11-2009, 10:56 AM
You contradict yourself:

more along the lines of my interpretation is evolving. but yeah, it changed overnight after re-reading a few things in TGS.:)

Terez
11-11-2009, 01:05 PM
I know that memories are stored. There are plenty of examples. I take an issue with an entire 'personality' being stored and available for use at a later time.
It always made more sense to me that Rand would construct a personality to deal with the memories, stress, and thoughts of impending insanity instead of LTT popping up, straight from the AOL in his head.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yeah, I also have a problem with that idea, more because the idea of two separate sentient beings within one soul makes no sense to me. You might say that 'Lews Therin' was 'conscious' in a sense, but only in the sense of the 'voice' being a manifestation of Rand's subconscious.

@Gelb - that makes sense. Most people have evolving understanding of Lews Therin. Except the die-hard real'ers, of course...

Yellowbeard
11-11-2009, 03:56 PM
took me a minute to remember the gelb thing. i was like "who?" don't remember your inspiration for that either, and too lazy to look up my noob thread.

i think with any book series, interpretations of the writings evolve. even after the series is complete.

Yeah, I also have a problem with that idea, more because the idea of two separate sentient beings within one soul makes no sense to me.

okay, so to play devil's advocate....

in the taint barrier degradation theory, it supposes a barrier between incarnations so that one doesn't remember past lives. that means the memories are stored in the soul. and if a personality is an amalgamation of memories and experiences that are imprinted on the soul, then why would a personality not also be recorded and available for retrieval? why limit it to just memories but nothing else? don't memories include persona in a way since a persons memories and experiences are what constitute the makeup of a personality? if the makeup items are there, why not the personality too?

Terez
11-11-2009, 04:57 PM
took me a minute to remember the gelb thing. i was like "who?" don't remember your inspiration for that either, and too lazy to look up my noob thread.
'Gelb' is German for 'Yellow', and it's also a WoT character (Floran Gelb), and since I'm lazy and it's easy to type, that be your nickname. Also, Gelb is a wannabe pirate. Or he worked for one anyway...

don't memories include persona in a way since a persons memories and experiences are what constitute the makeup of a personality? if the makeup items are there, why not the personality too?
I contend that the personality is a part of the memories, and I don't think that crue was disagreeing with that, either. We're just disagreeing with the idea that Lews Therin the person was in any way transferred beyond being reborn as Rand. When Rand started remembering his past life, it wasn't as if Lews Therin was all of a sudden sharing his head with him. That was just his perception, influenced at first by his preconception of Lews Therin as a) another man, and b) a murdering madman. As the memories started coming more fully, he found nothing in those memories to encourage him to see himself as being Lews Therin, so of course he continued to perceive Lews Therin to be another man.

PatsNats28
11-11-2009, 09:50 PM
I like your point about Ilyena, it makes sense with his irrational dislike towards harming women.

4Alethinos
11-12-2009, 05:33 PM
Yes, I agree that a part of Rand's problems about killing women came from guilt over Ilyena. I am also glad that this particular insanity is likely over. Rand can happily off Moggy, Cyndane, and whoever and get the job done with no guilt, whatsoever. Whee!

I also do not agree with the taint barrier degradation theory, at all. Since the revelation from Semi that this syndrome occurred in the AoL before the little incident with the Bore, it follows that it is a product of the Pattern and ultimately the Wheel.

"You can not ignore the chicks. They do result in McNuggets, after all."

Belazamon
11-12-2009, 05:37 PM
I also do not agree with the taint barrier degradation theory, at all. Since the revelation from Semi that this syndrome occurred in the AoL before the little incident with the Bore, it follows that it is a product of the Pattern and ultimately the Wheel.
Correlation does not equal causation.