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Toss the dice
11-11-2009, 11:46 PM
I have a question regarding how Rand mentions Mat is in Caemlyn with Thom (forget the page but could find it), but Mat and his followers never even get to Caemlyn (or even RELATIVELY close) at all in TGS.

I assume at least Rand and Mat's storylines are not quite synched up yet in TGS. Any thoughts?

crue
11-12-2009, 12:07 AM
Since the last three books were supposed to be one book, I can understand why certain points of view would reference events that have not been on screen yet. You can see the same thing Tam telling Rand that Morgase is with Perrin, despite not having having seen this revelation on screen.

It does make for some interesting synch issues.

Frenzy
11-12-2009, 12:08 AM
Lack of synching, probably. Matt & Thom were heading for Caemlyn thanks to Verin. That has obviously happened already, even if we haven't seen it yet.

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 12:20 AM
Yeah thanks for the comments.

It was weird because I had read TGS in a few sittings, and not front to back, but rather separate storylines at a time. I read that comment during one of Rand's parts and was like what's going on, did I miss a quick Mat and followers in Caemlyn section? Quickly scan ahead and the very next Mat section has him just outside Hinderstap, the part where he goes and talks to Aludra about the Dragons. Quickly skim through to the end for more Mat sections and there weren't any hidden ones I missed.

I am assuming Verin had made a gateway to Caemlyn for Mat and the rest sometime in TGS (essentially the last thing Mat does in TGS, but it's offscreen), but I'm pretty sure Rand had said Mat and Thom were in Caemlyn BEFORE Mat's talk with Aludra, let alone when Verin first meets Mat. Just kind of odd. Could be wrong about the timing but I think that's how it goes.

Edit: I very well could be wrong about the timing, I'll have to recheck things. Everything is just peachy and not odd at all if Rand mentions the Caemlyn thing AFTER ALL of Mat's povs throughout TGS. But if Rand mentions Mat in Caemlyn BEFORE Mat's povs are not done, I would almost call this a mistake, regardless of the fact that it is supposed to be 1 book split into 3 parts. Because whether you have 1 book or 3 books, things are simply out of order no matter how you slice it. If Rand mentions Caemlyn AFTER all of Mat's povs are done, then that works just fine either way. At least you're not figurately turning the page and reading a Mat pov where he is still outside Hinderstap.

matrimzombie
11-12-2009, 09:45 AM
Has there ever been any definative proof or explanation that the color swirling visions of our 3 Ta'veren are visions of the present? Couldn't they just as easily be visions of the past or future?

Perrin and Mat and Rand seem to believe the visions indicate where/what they are doing at the time, but since when have they been right about anything? :)

Terez
11-12-2009, 10:16 AM
Has there ever been any definative proof or explanation that the color swirling visions of our 3 Ta'veren are visions of the present?
Yeah - they're obviously the present. First incident that verifies it was the Cleansing. Both Mat and Perrin were with channelers at the time.

AbbeyRoad
11-12-2009, 04:42 PM
I am assuming Verin had made a gateway to Caemlyn for Mat and the rest sometime in TGS (essentially the last thing Mat does in TGS, but it's offscreen), but I'm pretty sure Rand had said Mat and Thom were in Caemlyn BEFORE Mat's talk with Aludra, let alone when Verin first meets Mat. Just kind of odd. Could be wrong about the timing but I think that's how it goes.

Edit: I very well could be wrong about the timing, I'll have to recheck things. Everything is just peachy and not odd at all if Rand mentions the Caemlyn thing AFTER ALL of Mat's povs throughout TGS. But if Rand mentions Mat in Caemlyn BEFORE Mat's povs are not done, I would almost call this a mistake, regardless of the fact that it is supposed to be 1 book split into 3 parts. Because whether you have 1 book or 3 books, things are simply out of order no matter how you slice it. If Rand mentions Caemlyn AFTER all of Mat's povs are done, then that works just fine either way. At least you're not figurately turning the page and reading a Mat pov where he is still outside Hinderstap.
You're making the fallacy of believing that each POV in the book occur simultaneously one after the other as they appear. In fact, RJ tends to speed up certain plotlines and let others lag behind depending on what is going on. I took it as Rand and Egwene's plots have been sped up and Mat and Perrin need to catch up in the next book.

Terez
11-12-2009, 04:48 PM
Yeah, it's certainly not the first time we've had overlapping timelines.

Yellowbeard
11-12-2009, 05:13 PM
w/ the possible exception of the moment when galad meets perrin, sees morgase, and goes "oh schmack!! mom's alive!!", i sort of hope ToM ends up picking up the timeline at or slightly after TGS ended. i have no need to go back in time to see the rest of Mat's trip to or arrival at Caemlyn or Perrin's meetup w/ Galad.

and while we're on the subject, i hope the egwene/WT plot arc is done now. obviously there is work for her to do, but it can come thru in the future books in some other way than taking up half of another book.

i'd like best if the remaining books focus on rand, mat,and perrin, them meeting up (with moiraine's rescue thrown in), and then seeing how TG falls out.

Sarevok
11-12-2009, 05:23 PM
Edit: I very well could be wrong about the timing, I'll have to recheck things. Everything is just peachy and not odd at all if Rand mentions the Caemlyn thing AFTER ALL of Mat's povs throughout TGS. But if Rand mentions Mat in Caemlyn BEFORE Mat's povs are not done, I would almost call this a mistake, regardless of the fact that it is supposed to be 1 book split into 3 parts. Because whether you have 1 book or 3 books, things are simply out of order no matter how you slice it. If Rand mentions Caemlyn AFTER all of Mat's povs are done, then that works just fine either way. At least you're not figurately turning the page and reading a Mat pov where he is still outside Hinderstap.
I don't think you could call the timelines being out of synch a mistake if it was done deliberately. I think if the stories had been in sync, the whole of tGS would have been about Mat riding to Caemlyn and Perrin, uh... also moving to Caemlyn?
It's likely that Mat and Perrin's stories will catch up in the next book.

Terez
11-12-2009, 05:25 PM
I doubt we'll see Mat actually Traveling to Caemlyn, but I bet we'll see Perrin and Galad meeting up.

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 06:58 PM
To me, this case of time synching being off based on storyline is different than the rest. Of course, it isn't different in any way due to the timelines being off in general, but it IS different because I believe it's the first time the reader of the books has known something about another timeline (from a 2nd timeline) BEFORE you read about it in the actual timeline where it occurred.

In the past, the descriptions and content of each timeline where you can compare the differences in time for each (how many days off, etc)...were never directly in conflict with each other. Of course, the reader knew they were in conflict with each other because one was ahead of the other, but details (like the Caemlyn one) have never blatantly been given to us "before time" like this before.

Edit: An example of past timelines where the synch is off would be Rand cleansing the True Source and then later we have Joline, Edesina, Teslyn feeling the immense power being used far away, their talk with Mat, etc. There is no direct conflict of timelines here since the 3 AS and Mat timeline details were given to us AFTER the Rand timeline where he actually did it in the first place.

Now, if we would have read the 3 AS and Mat timeline FIRST, before Rand actually cleansed the source, that would be a perfect example of what this whole Caemlyn thing is about. Go ahead and flip-flop those two sections in the books and tell me how much sense that would make. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure this Caemlyn timeline issue is the first of it's kind.

So basically, if true, I think this Caemlyn timeline issue is almost a mistake on the author's part not because of the timelines being out of synch, but BECAUSE OF WHAT DETAILS THE AUTHOR SHARES WITH US.

nameless
11-12-2009, 08:12 PM
Well, the synchronization works out a little bit better if you actually read the story as it was written instead of finishing one subplot entirely and then starting the next one. Not 100% better, but a little.

I wouldn't call it a mistake regardless. It's not unreasonable for an author to expect readers to connect the dots every now and then. If Perrin is seen with Galad, for example, then we know there was obviously a point in time when they met up with each other whether or not we ever see it directly. The biggest criticism of that omission is the potential drama we'd miss out on if the meeting takes place off screen. There's not really any drama involved in Traveling to Caemlyn, so why show it directly?

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 09:13 PM
Well, the synchronization works out a little bit better if you actually read the story as it was written instead of finishing one subplot entirely and then starting the next one. Not 100% better, but a little.

I wouldn't call it a mistake regardless. It's not unreasonable for an author to expect readers to connect the dots every now and then. If Perrin is seen with Galad, for example, then we know there was obviously a point in time when they met up with each other whether or not we ever see it directly. The biggest criticism of that omission is the potential drama we'd miss out on if the meeting takes place off screen. There's not really any drama involved in Traveling to Caemlyn, so why show it directly?

I agree that there is little to zero drama involved in Traveling to Caemlyn, but this really has nothing to do with simply Traveling to Caemlyn. This has everything to do with Rand saying Mat and Thom are in Caemlyn and then later on Mat and Thom are still near Hinderstap. A big difference between this and your Perrin and Galad example, as your P&G example of "connecting the dots" has no time synch CONFLICTS, actually it has no time synch connectivity between more than 1 timeline in the first place. It is merely one timeline.

I disagree that the synchronization works out a little better if one were to read the story as written, as you say. If reading the story from page 1 to the very end all the way through without skipping around, the result is the exact same as how I found it. Really, the way I found it has nothing to do with this issue at all.

Whether it was a mistake or not, if it was up to me, I probably wouldn't have given out this detail "before its time" simply because it hasn't been done in the WoT series before and also because like you said, Traveling to Caemlyn isn't a big deal in the first place. Why should the author even mention it to us at the cost of the "cart before the horse" conflict? The only plus or minus I see to us knowing this, is the fact that we as readers know for a fact that Mat and Thom HAVE/DID get to Caemlyn, which seems almost pointless for us to know because that can be (and will be) remedied/given to us in the next book anyway. Best case scenario, a grand total of something like 2 sentences are not needed in the next book due to this revelation before it's time, if that.

So in a way, to me the issue isn't so much the knowing of things beforehand (this can be done tactfully by use of hinting at things, other characters/timelines guessing where and what someone else is doing), but the NATURE of how we absolutely know for a fact what happens. Use this same exact concept with something of VAST importance to the books instead of the minor detail of Traveling to Caemlyn, and it could very well ruin the rest of the series. Why? Because we are informed of something before we even actually read about it.

Terez
11-12-2009, 09:18 PM
I think some people just look for stuff to be upset about...

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 09:36 PM
I think some people are pessimists that look for the worst in other people in order to support their own views and hopes...

Personally, I like to take the unbiased approach, whether it happens to be good OR bad.

Terez
11-12-2009, 09:41 PM
lol, I don't have any bias against you. But this entire thread is just weird.

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 09:43 PM
lol, I don't have any bias against you. But this entire thread is just weird.

I do weird well.

Terez
11-12-2009, 09:45 PM
You're talking about Harold right?

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 09:48 PM
Don't tell her Harold.

Weird Harold
11-12-2009, 09:56 PM
Don't tell her Harold.
Don't tell her what?

That I'm no weirder than anyone else, I just admit it. :D

Toss the dice
11-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Whew.

Belazamon
11-12-2009, 11:54 PM
Don't tell her Harold.
I see what you did there... :cool: