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Kalli
11-13-2009, 11:21 AM
When Rand visits Moridin in TAR. Moridin says somethings has me a little more then confused.

It is not time for us to fight. Go. Leave me in peace. I do not know what would happen to us if we killed one another. The Great Lord will have you soon enough. His victory is assured.

The line about being unsure what would happen if they killed each other bothers me. I interpret it that he is referring to the present and not the future.

'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, but is it actually necessary thing for the Dark one in order to break the wheel? The Dragon is bound to the Horn, So if he dies his soul goes to the horn and not the dark one I would assume. So the DO need's him alive to break the wheel.

For such a smart guy it seems like he's tipping his hand a bit. It sounds to me like the last battle can't happen if Rand is not there. Of course he just lying but he seemed so tired and dejected. I think he speaking the truth.

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:26 AM
I'm assuming that they are planning on manipulating the link to get Rand's soul, in one way or another (perhaps something like the Slayer merge). That would prevent Rand from re-sealing the prison (or making it whole again, like the Creator made it), which would allow the Dark One to do whatever it is he plans on doing (breaking the Wheel, etc.) I further assume that this is why Alivia will have to help Rand die - to save him from that fate. However, these are tenuous assumptions. I don't have any really strong opinions on it, other than that I DO NOT believe that Rand will end up in Moridin's body, lol.

Davian93
11-13-2009, 11:30 AM
He could simply be referring to the balefire link between the two of them.

Kalli
11-13-2009, 11:40 AM
W~ell assuming that it is nothing more than a link at this time and that balefire can no longer burn either thread from the pattern. The the DO can always re spin Elan/Ishy/Moridin's thread and why wouldn't he, he is certainly the most successful of the chosen.

Davian93
11-13-2009, 11:51 AM
W~ell assuming that it is nothing more than a link at this time and that balefire can no longer burn either thread from the pattern. The the DO can always re spin Elan/Ishy/Moridin's thread and why wouldn't he, he is certainly the most successful of the chosen.

It might not kill him, it would likely just make him go insane.

nameless
11-13-2009, 03:54 PM
'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, but is it actually necessary thing for the Dark one in order to break the wheel? The Dragon is bound to the Horn, So if he dies his soul goes to the horn and not the dark one I would assume. So the DO need's him alive to break the wheel.

For such a smart guy it seems like he's tipping his hand a bit. It sounds to me like the last battle can't happen if Rand is not there. Of course he just lying but he seemed so tired and dejected. I think he speaking the truth.

He's been playing with all his cards on the table since tEotW. If he were interested in keeping his plans secret he would never have mentioned manipulating Jain Farstrider, sending Hawkwing's armies across the oceans, infiltrating the White Tower, or any of the other tidbits he casually hands out to all three ta'veren while bragging about how clever he's been.

I don't think the DO needs the Dragon alive, but I do think it's much, much easier to win if he's still in the game. He's essentially the most powerful destructive force in the world right now. Whichever side successfully harnesses that force gains a huge advantage.

ZaderGru
11-13-2009, 04:30 PM
When Rand visits Moridin in TAR. Moridin says somethings has me a little more then confused.



The line about being unsure what would happen if they killed each other bothers me. I interpret it that he is referring to the present and not the future.

'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, but is it actually necessary thing for the Dark one in order to break the wheel? The Dragon is bound to the Horn, So if he dies his soul goes to the horn and not the dark one I would assume. So the DO need's him alive to break the wheel.

For such a smart guy it seems like he's tipping his hand a bit. It sounds to me like the last battle can't happen if Rand is not there. Of course he just lying but he seemed so tired and dejected. I think he speaking the truth.

I believe he is partly telling the truth, he is unsure what will happen to them, because of the link between the two of them, but he will not try to kill Rand because he knows if he is sucessful the Dark One loses this round and will have to wait another 3000 years untill the Dragon is Reborn again.

I believe the only way the Dark One can be freed is by the Dragon using the TP to destroy the wheel.

"Only a true enemy can be relied upon"

Tercel
11-13-2009, 09:54 PM
When Rand visits Moridin in TAR. Moridin says somethings has me a little more then confused.

The line about being unsure what would happen if they killed each other bothers me. I interpret it that he is referring to the present and not the future.Moridin is far more aware of, and concerned about the link he has with Rand. The link was caused by their balefire streams touching in Crown of Swords.

Rand has noticed the nausea that it causes whenever he touches Saidin or whenever Moridin does, and also noticed the fact that Moridin's face appears in his head, and also channeled the True Power. However Rand has totally failed to put two and two together and hasn't consciously realized his link with Moridin.

Moridin by contrast has realised he is linked with Rand now, but he doesn't understand the link, and is very unhappy about the sufferings it is causing him. Moridin doesn't have anything near Rand's ability to withstand pain. Apparently Rand's loss of an arm causes physical pain for Moridin. Moridin is particularly concerned at what would happen to him if Rand died. Because of this Moridin has banned any attempts on Rand's life and any attempts to hurt Rand.

Moridin believes the Dark One will eventually win, and doesn't care if it's in this age or the next. Yet somewhat self-contradictorily Moridin wants the DO to win and destroy the pattern and at the same time Moridin still has the basic human instinct for self-preservation: He doesn't want to die. He's afraid of what might happen to him if Rand died while linked to him.

Kalli
11-13-2009, 10:33 PM
Moridin by contrast has realised he is linked with Rand now, but he doesn't understand the link, and is very unhappy about the sufferings it is causing him. Moridin doesn't have anything near Rand's ability to withstand pain. Apparently Rand's loss of an arm causes physical pain for Moridin. Moridin is particularly concerned at what would happen to him if Rand died. Because of this Moridin has banned any attempts on Rand's life and any attempts to hurt Rand.


It never occurred to me that if Moridin felt tired he felt more of Rand's suffering... I knew i loved Theorylanders for a good reason!

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 04:26 AM
Question is, does the DO know about the link or is Moridin keeping it to himself?

Tercel
11-14-2009, 04:39 AM
Question is, does the DO know about the link or is Moridin keeping it to himself?That's something that has also intrigued me.

My pet theory is that Moridin is keeping it to himself. He hasn't told the DO. However he is letting it affect the orders he gives to the other forsaken. He is no longer acting in the DO's best interest, he is acting in his own best interests. I believe that more and more he will come to realise that the DO's interests do not coincide with his own. Eventually he will realise that his doesn't really want to see the Pattern destroyed, will recant his nihilism and turn against the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 05:22 AM
'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, ...Assuming, of course, that one discounts precisely how close the GLotD came to achieving that just a very little later when Semirhage broke free.
If one doesn't make that assumption, then it is a lot less arrogant, I would say.

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 05:52 AM
Perhaps there is something in the prophecies of the shadow to that effect?

My pet theory is that Moridin is keeping it to himself. He hasn't told the DO. However he is letting it affect the orders he gives to the other forsaken. He is no longer acting in the DO's best interest, he is acting in his own best interests. I believe that more and more he will come to realise that the DO's interests do not coincide with his own. Eventually he will realise that his doesn't really want to see the Pattern destroyed, will recant his nihilism and turn against the DO.

I think so too, but there are a few tidbits here and there that make me wonder. For instance, Min saw Rand merging with someone but if Min saw this, is it possible some of the other forsaken have seen it too through TAR? Especially Moghedien and Lanfear.

If its an important event in the course of the pattern's weaving, it might be accesible to the forsaken too. And Lanfear's plans remain very sketchy at best.

Kalli
11-14-2009, 06:09 AM
If one doesn't make that assumption, then it is a lot less arrogant, I would say.

Is Moridin and S.H. working together or are they independent to an extent?

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 06:33 AM
Is Moridin and S.H. working together or are they independent to an extent?Yes.

Which may not be very informative, I'll grant, but it is the best we can do.

Kalli
11-14-2009, 07:40 AM
The only connection linking the two off the top of my head is Lanfear/Cy, right? And if the DO has his trusty leader among the chosen why does he need S.H. unless he has doubt about Moridin.

Your right not enough info... I'm getting boggled on this... Is this Fischer game plot I've heard about?

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 09:14 AM
The DO may be using SH because there are things which Moridin simply cannot do. One rather obvious case of that is SH's ability to switch off the OP, thus making channeling impossible.

Spasmodean
11-14-2009, 09:18 AM
Is Moridin and S.H. working together or are they independent to an extent?

I'd say independant. Remember that Moridin forbade Semirhage's rescue and despite this SH showed up to give her one last chance.

legends be wrought
11-14-2009, 09:39 AM
I'd say independant. Remember that Moridin forbade Semirhage's rescue and despite this SH showed up to give her one last chance.

I always saw that as a joke by the dark one. Give Semi a chance then completely give her up by giving Rand access to the TP (i still havnt decided if it was via Ishy connection or Dark Ones will). It also got rid of a liability as Semi wasnt exactly withstanding interrogation very well.

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 09:45 AM
I'd say independant. Remember that Moridin forbade Semirhage's rescue and despite this SH showed up to give her one last chance.

did he do it knowing/hoping that Rand would channel the OP to get out of a tight fix? That would imply that he knows of the connection and also that he's quite willing to use Moridin in his own plans.

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 09:59 AM
I always saw that as a joke by the dark one. Give Semi a chance then completely give her up by giving Rand access to the TP (i still havnt decided if it was via Ishy connection or Dark Ones will). It also got rid of a liability as Semi wasnt exactly withstanding interrogation very well.

I'm not too comfortable about this DO granting access to the TP thing at all. When Rand wanted to channel the TP, did the DO make an instantaneous choice of yes or no on the spot?

It seems unlikely he did. More than likely Rand already had access to the TP long before the event. And that means the DO granted access a while back or Rand's using some other source or even that the DO's 'permission' aint necessary.

Davian93
11-14-2009, 11:19 AM
did he do it knowing/hoping that Rand would channel the OP to get out of a tight fix? That would imply that he knows of the connection and also that he's quite willing to use Moridin in his own plans.

That's my theory on the matter. Semi was a patsy. It took care of two birds with one stone. (Semi punished, Rand tainted with the TP). Quite an crafty plan.

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 11:38 AM
That's my theory on the matter. Semi was a patsy. It took care of two birds with one stone. (Semi punished, Rand tainted with the TP). Quite an crafty plan.

But would the DO have wanted Rand to BF her? It seems like quite a waste of resources. If yes, then the DO's in tandem with Moridin.

Davian93
11-14-2009, 11:46 AM
But would the DO have wanted Rand to BF her? It seems like quite a waste of resources. If yes, then the DO's in tandem with Moridin.

Yes. For one, its punishment of a Chosen that failed. Two, it makes sense to encourage Rand to use as much balefire as possible to further weaken the Pattern. Why else would Moridin just happen to mention that the only way to kill Forsaken for good is to use balefire? Elan isn't that stupid.

amazinglarry
11-14-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm not too comfortable about this DO granting access to the TP thing at all. When Rand wanted to channel the TP, did the DO make an instantaneous choice of yes or no on the spot?

It seems unlikely he did. More than likely Rand already had access to the TP long before the event. And that means the DO granted access a while back or Rand's using some other source or even that the DO's 'permission' aint necessary.

I don't think the DO had to grant Rand permission to channel the TP. Moridin already has permission, and Rand reached through Moridin to channel the TP. Rand would only need permission to channel it directly from the DO; in this case he used Moridin as a conduit to access the TP, circumventing the whole "permission" thing altogether.

amazinglarry

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 12:05 PM
Yes. For one, its punishment of a Chosen that failed.

Yeah, but that doesn't square with the treatment of Moghedien who actually taught Lightfriends! And since the forsaken are so few, why not slap a coursouvra on her? He can't bring her back at ll now and he can't replace her with a third ager. He has only six left now. Officially.

Although there's no reason why he shouldn't return Osangar and Asmo.

E: amazinglarry, what you say is possible, just not strong enough to be totally convincing.

Davian93
11-14-2009, 12:11 PM
Yeah, but that doesn't square with the treatment of Moghedien who actually taught Lightfriends! And since the forsaken are so few, why not slap a coursouvra on her? He can't bring her back at ll now and he can't replace her with a third ager. He has only six left now. Officially.

Although there's no reason why he shouldn't return Osangar and Asmo.

E: amazinglarry, what you say is possible, just not strong enough to be totally convincing.

Because the value of it was worth it. Getting Rand to use the True Power was a huge victory for the DO. It taints Rand's actions throughout the rest of the book. Semi was worth that sacrifice.

Ozymandias
11-14-2009, 12:38 PM
E: amazinglarry, what you say is possible, just not strong enough to be totally convincing.

I think that is by far the most likely explanation. Rand reached through his connection to Moridin, unwittingly to be sure, but thats how he accessed the TP.

I'm pretty sure there is a strong case to be made that one cannot access the TP without the DO extending it to you. Think of it as a loan. Theoretically, anyone can get a loan, but you don't actually have the money to use until the bank gives it to you.

1Powerslave
11-14-2009, 01:03 PM
Yes. For one, its punishment of a Chosen that failed. Two, it makes sense to encourage Rand to use as much balefire as possible to further weaken the Pattern. Why else would Moridin just happen to mention that the only way to kill Forsaken for good is to use balefire? Elan isn't that stupid.
Balefire. *thinking out loud*: Does the Dark One really need Rand to use Balefire if he wanted to use it to unravel the Pattern some? He asked if Demandred would be willing to unleash the Balefire in his service once. He has many Chosen, would they refuse an order to use Balefire? Appearantly they stopped in the War Of Power, both Shadow and Light, because they realized that it was destroying the world. Appearantly all Darkfriends except Moridin (and Demandred?) wants a world to rule after the Light is destroyed. So yeah, I guess I can buy into the argument that getting Rand to use Balefire more is worth revealing the information about the Chosen and recycling. But I still think it is a little tenuous, i.e. if Moridin and Demandred spent an hour a day Balefiring stuff... Course, the amount Rand used against Graendal... Hmm.

And I agree that Semirhage was expendable. Everyone is to the Dark One. And that plan, should Rand have rejected the True Power, was still a win. Capturing Rand would've been good. At least I hope that it would've been.

Now they got the gain of getting Rand addicted to the most powerful and destructive drug in the world. The True Power. He needed to balance the addiction out by having the Choedan Kal in his pocket in tGS. Essentially Rand compared the addiction to that of the amount of saidin he can channel through that sa'angreal.
And every channeler does have an addiction to the One Power. It is small enough that they does not need to channel every day perhaps. But many of them fear being severed (losing their drug) more than death.
I guess we will see in the next books how much damage this addiction will do.

Davian93
11-14-2009, 01:13 PM
Balefire. *thinking out loud*: Does the Dark One really need Rand to use Balefire if he wanted to use it to unravel the Pattern some? He asked if Demandred would be willing to unleash the Balefire in his service once. He has many Chosen, would they refuse an order to use Balefire? Appearantly they stopped in the War Of Power, both Shadow and Light, because they realized that it was destroying the world. Appearantly all Darkfriends except Moridin (and Demandred?) wants a world to rule after the Light is destroyed. So yeah, I guess I can buy into the argument that getting Rand to use Balefire more is worth revealing the information about the Chosen and recycling. But I still think it is a little tenuous, i.e. if Moridin and Demandred spent an hour a day Balefiring stuff... Course, the amount Rand used against Graendal... Hmm.

And I agree that Semirhage was expendable. Everyone is to the Dark One. And that plan, should Rand have rejected the True Power, was still a win. Capturing Rand would've been good. At least I hope that it would've been.

Now they got the gain of getting Rand addicted to the most powerful and destructive drug in the world. The True Power. He needed to balance the addiction out by having the Choedan Kal in his pocket in tGS. Essentially Rand compared the addiction to that of the amount of saidin he can channel through that sa'angreal.
And every channeler does have an addiction to the One Power. It is small enough that they does not need to channel every day perhaps. But many of them fear being severed (losing their drug) more than death.
I guess we will see in the next books how much damage this addiction will do.

Rand will be wandering the Maule late at night offering to trade Callandor for just another bit of the True Power...just one more fix.

natural1dave
11-16-2009, 09:17 AM
That's something that has also intrigued me.

My pet theory is that Moridin is keeping it to himself. He hasn't told the DO. However he is letting it affect the orders he gives to the other forsaken. He is no longer acting in the DO's best interest, he is acting in his own best interests. I believe that more and more he will come to realise that the DO's interests do not coincide with his own. Eventually he will realise that his doesn't really want to see the Pattern destroyed, will recant his nihilism and turn against the DO.

When I read the chapter I had the 'gut' feeling that this might be the case. I interpreted it as Moiridin had resigned himself to the fact that the DO would eventually win, and logically it makes sense to side with the winner.

I kinda think Rand might come up with some idea to actually beat the DO forever, and the little of Elan left in Moiridin will see that it can work and might play a part in making it happen.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 09:24 AM
When I read the chapter I had the 'gut' feeling that this might be the case. I interpreted it as Moiridin had resigned himself to the fact that the DO would eventually win, and logically it makes sense to side with the winner.

I kinda think Rand might come up with some idea to actually beat the DO forever, and the little of Elan left in Moiridin will see that it can work and might play a part in making it happen.

There is still good in him.

He's more machine than man now...twisted and evil.

I can't kill my own father.

Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope, Luke.

Yoda spoke of another...

The other he spoke of was your twin sister....

Leia! Leia's my sister.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 10:04 AM
So, Min is Rand's older twin sister?

Davian93
11-16-2009, 10:16 AM
So, Min is Rand's older twin sister?

Sadly yes.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 10:31 AM
If using the TP destroys the pattern, what does using the TP to balefire someone do to it?

greatwolf
11-16-2009, 10:41 AM
He has many Chosen, would they refuse an order to use Balefire? .

Would it matter? SH can use the TP and we've seen BF woven from the TP. So maybe the DO isn't all that keen to do it. Or more likely he's aware that the pattern would protect itself against that possibly by warping the mind of whoever he tried to use. Or something.

One Armed Gimp
11-16-2009, 10:53 AM
Rand reached through Moridin to channel the TP.

Already proven wrong by BS. Rand channelled the TP directly. I do believe that DO has allowed him access the entire time, that he set Semi up and that this was what the DO wanted.

I kinda think Rand might come up with some idea to actually beat the DO forever

Negative. RJ has already confirmed that there is nothing "special" about this turning. This is not the last" Last Battle. It will be repeated and so the DO must live.


I DO NOT believe that Rand will end up in Moridin's body

+1

Crispin's Crispian
11-16-2009, 11:23 AM
If using the TP destroys the pattern, what does using the TP to balefire someone do to it?
Destroys the Pattern in reverse?

amazinglarry
11-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Already proven wrong by BS. Rand channelled the TP directly. I do believe that DO has allowed him access the entire time, that he set Semi up and that this was what the DO wanted.

What's the evidence? Did BS answer the question directly at a signing? I thought it seemed pretty clear when reading this scene that Rand reached out through his link to Moridin, as opposed to reaching directly to a new power source.

amazinglarry

Ieyasu
11-16-2009, 02:32 PM
Already proven wrong by BS. Rand channelled the TP directly. I do believe that DO has allowed him access the entire time, that he set Semi up and that this was what the DO wanted.


Please provide the alleged 'proof' by BS that Rand channeled it directly and bypassed his link to Moridin, also please explain exactly why he saw his face the moment he siezed the TP.

Could any of the ppl who seem to think Rand suddenly, magically was granted access to the TP by the DO explain to me why he saw the face before grabbing it?

Could any of the ppl who seem to think Rand suddenly, magically was granted access to the TP by the DO also explain to me how Rand is able to directly seize it without having made the necessary oaths to get the black cords that has been RJ has said are mandatory to access the TP?

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 02:39 PM
I thought the TP was a matter of you wanting to use it and the Dark One allowing it, not black cords?

Subucula Tertia
11-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Could any of the ppl who seem to think Rand suddenly, magically was granted access to the TP by the DO also explain to me how Rand is able to directly seize it without having made the necessary oaths to get the black cords that has been RJ has said are mandatory to access the TP?
A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.
Emphasis mine.

One Armed Gimp
11-16-2009, 03:21 PM
Brandon explained that the True Power can only be used by someone that the Dark One has allowed to use it.

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1013

Thats not very definitive, I know. I thought there was a quote where he flat out said that Rand did not draw through Moridin, but I can not find it and could easily be wrong. However, I still think the DO wants Rand to channel the TP.

As for the cords, this comes from RJ:

Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one
letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw
TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity.
TP used at SG will fry you instantly.


http://linuxmafia.com/~pam/ACOS_signings.html

The insanity part is very interesting, I had not really thought about that aspect of it.

Tip 'o the hat to Terez and the DB.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Would it matter? SH can use the TP and we've seen BF woven from the TP.
To be fair, we don't actually have any confirmation that Shaidar Haran is using the True Power - leastways not that I'm aware of. Maybe I missed an interview or something.

Tree Brother
11-16-2009, 04:57 PM
To be fair, we don't actually have any confirmation that Shaidar Haran is using the True Power - leastways not that I'm aware of. Maybe I missed an interview or something.

Yeah, 'cause he doesn't have eyes for saa. ;)

Things to check: black flames. Do both Moridin and Shaidar Haran conjure black flames?

Doesn't Shaidar Haran conjure a black ball of light that is not light? Kind of in opposition to the Sun that Rand creates, or the regular lights the AS conjure.

The way that Shiadar Haran's armor falls off when he punishes Maasana is sort of like being Saidered off ;)

He travel's like regular fades though.

Does Shaidar Haran have a soul, or does he have the D.O.'s soul? Can that soul channel? Can Fades channel if they have a channeling soul?

Some bizarre thoughts for the day.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 05:16 PM
Does Shaidar Haran have a soul, or does he have the D.O.'s soul? Can that soul channel?Does the DO have a soul? ;) :rolleyes:

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 05:18 PM
Does the DO have a soul? ;) :rolleyes:

Does an eternal being NEED a soul?

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 05:21 PM
Does an eternal being NEED a soul?~shrug~ I was just adding to the list of somewhat silly questions Tree Brother up there had going. He was assuming the DO had a soul for SH to have, so I went and asked the obvious, slightly silly question ;) :)

EDIT: to be fair, you could very well be doing the same.

Tree Brother
11-16-2009, 05:25 PM
Does an eternal being NEED a soul?

Yeah, Yeah. Ok, Trollocs have souls, so I assume Fades do too. But if Shaidar Haran is the arm of the D.O., would he need a soul, or would his "soul" be an extension of the DO's essence.

Here I am defending silly questions.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 05:27 PM
Yeah, Yeah. Ok, Trollocs have souls, so I assume Fades do too. But if Shaidar Haran is the arm of the D.O., would he need a soul, or would his "soul" be an extension of the DO's essence.

Here I am defending silly questions.Now that one, on the other hand, is quite interesting. It would probably depend on whether SH is simply a superfade or it he is an extension of the DO, his personal avatar.

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 05:33 PM
EDIT: to be fair, you could very well be doing the same.

Actually no, it was the first thing that popped into my head after reading your question.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 06:09 PM
~sigh~

Everyone is obsessed with the "you wanting it and the DO letting you," but I keep reminding people of this:

Q: Can you sever a person from the True Power with One Power?
RJ: Not in the same way. If you try to gentle a man or still a woman who's capable of using the True Power you'd have to use another method.
Q: So it is not only the Dark One who can stop giving the Forsaken the True Power, but they can be cut off as Asmodean was cut off.
RJ: Read and find out on Asmodean. I'm not gonna tell you.
RJ: They could be cut off, but the problem with that is, nobody knows how to do it. It is possible that some of the Forsaken themselves know how to do it, but nobody else does.
Q: What happens when Rand and Asmodean have this conflict and ...
Q1: ... and Rand severs his ties with the Dark One ...
Q2: ... and Rand severs some black ties. Isn't that ...
RJ: That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the Taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the Taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power. But it was not his ability to draw, it was not the same thing as stilling or severing, it was more like shielding.
Q: To go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago, were you implying that you could channel the True Power without being granted immortality?
RJ: Oh yes.

While it's an essential component, there's more to getting the TP than simply wanting it and the DO letting you. The above shows that you can be cut off from the TP independently of the DO's whims. It's possible then that you could access it independently as well. It would probably take a pretty unique set of circumstances, but that's exactly what we have here--the Rand/Moridin link.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 06:24 PM
The above shows that you can be cut off from the TP independently of the DO's whims. It's possible then that you could access it independently as well.
That doesn't actually follow at all. Let's say I have standing permission to borrow my roommate's car. I'm "shielded" from doing so, however, because she took her car keys with her when she left. However, her leaving the car keys on the table does not automatically give me permission to drive my roommate's car - they are independent conditions. :)

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 06:35 PM
To humor your hypothetical:

Now that the keys are on the table, there's also nothing stopping you from driving your roommate's car, whether she wishes you to or not. The keys allow for you to be "shielded" but they also allow you to "steal" the car as well. The possibility of one implies a possibility of the other.

I only claimed possibility, and I additionally qualified that with the requirement for a unique set of circumstances, which I believe the Rand/Moridin link fulfills.

Uno
11-16-2009, 06:39 PM
Yeah, Yeah. Ok, Trollocs have souls, so I assume Fades do too. But if Shaidar Haran is the arm of the D.O., would he need a soul, or would his "soul" be an extension of the DO's essence.

Here I am defending silly questions.

I don't think Halfmen have souls, actually, but I'm basing that mostly on the fact that they and Gray Men are the only Shadowspawn that don't have dreams. "Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs dream." (Lanfear to Ishamael, DR, ch. 36) There's also the entire not having eyes thing, eyes being the mirror to the soul, and all. RJ did tend to place a lot of emphasis on the eyes of various creatures.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 06:55 PM
Now that the keys are on the table, there's also nothing stopping you from driving your roommate's car, whether she wishes you to or not. The keys allow for you to be "shielded" but they also allow you to "steal" the car as well. The possibility of one implies a possibility of the other.
Okay, same scenario, voice-activated ignition. ;)

I only claimed possibility, and I additionally qualified that with the requirement for a unique set of circumstances, which I believe the Rand/Moridin link fulfills.
Well, if you agree on the Rand/Moridin link, I have no quarrel with you. :)

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 07:03 PM
Okay, same scenario, voice-activated ignition.

Not to belabor the issue, but you're highlighting my point. If your roommate had given you permission to drive her car, you wouldn't be able to, because your voice can't activate the car. The same mechanism blocks you from stealing her car as well.

Well, if you agree on the Rand/Moridin link, I have no quarrel with you.

I'm with you on the link, simply giving the TP to Rand willy nilly would be lame.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 07:27 PM
Not to belabor the issue, but you're highlighting my point. If your roommate had given you permission to drive her car, you wouldn't be able to, because your voice can't activate the car. The same mechanism blocks you from stealing her car as well.
Not precisely. The voice-activation thing is actually a good example, now that I think about it - I can have standing permission to use her car, but she's still got to start it up for me. Same with the TP (or so I figure); Moridin has standing permission to channel it, but he still can't access it on his own - the Great Lord has to actually "voice-activate" it, so to speak. Once it's "turned on," he can drive (channel) it in whatever way he sees fit.

All this is speculation, obviously. That's why we can argue about it. :)

Birgitte
11-16-2009, 10:31 PM
All this is speculation, obviously. That's why we can argue about it. :)

~shakes head~ Now that's the silliest thing I have ever seen you say.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 10:43 PM
~shakes head~ Now that's the silliest thing I have ever seen you say.
Oops, my apologies. I didn't mean to be silly.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

nameless
11-16-2009, 11:11 PM
I don't think Halfmen have souls, actually, but I'm basing that mostly on the fact that they and Gray Men are the only Shadowspawn that don't have dreams. "Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs dream." (Lanfear to Ishamael, DR, ch. 36) There's also the entire not having eyes thing, eyes being the mirror to the soul, and all. RJ did tend to place a lot of emphasis on the eyes of various creatures.

I think their souls die in utero.