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Tamyrlin
11-13-2009, 03:15 PM
From the storm leader report on Dragonmount, thought these were worth mentioning and discussion:


Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.
Brandon admitted there would be overlapping chronology between The Gathering Storm and The Towers of Midnight and that Graendalís name will be mentioned a few times.
Jordanís outline for WoTís conclusion was about 2500 pages.
When it comes to Asmodeanís death or possibility of rebirth or potential killers, Brandon seems oddly obsessed with balefire being the means of death when discussing talking points.

Tamyrlin
11-13-2009, 03:17 PM
If his killer is revealed in Towers of Midnight, it could be Graendal from her point of view before her death, since we know there will be time overlap...seems like a plausible way to throw it in, although lame, but plausible.

Tamyrlin
11-13-2009, 03:21 PM
I think we need some clarification and I wish we had the audio on this answer because it seems more involved than the paraphrased answer we got. I'm not sure I understand why SH would have been incapable of placing the collar himself...yet capable of rape. As in, is it something having to do with the collar? Or am I just not reading that right?

Terez
11-13-2009, 03:24 PM
Interesting. I wonder who Compelled Elza! Seems it couldn't have been Shaidar Haran (not that I ever thought it likely he could do something like that). Perhaps Graendal was involved? Or Moridin?

Davian93
11-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Interesting. I wonder who Compelled Elza! Seems it couldn't have been Shaidar Haran (not that I ever thought it likely he could do something like that). Perhaps Graendal was involved? Or Moridin?

Umm...Verin did when she interrogated her in PoD.

Kurtz
11-13-2009, 03:26 PM
I wouldn't expect such a retrospective POV. I presume it refers to Mat/Perrin.

It would be interesting but I don't think we need a Graendal experience (though I wouldn't mind one).

Nice bits about SH though!

Terez
11-13-2009, 03:32 PM
Umm...Verin did when she interrogated her in PoD.
lol, duh. But I got the impression that she had been Compelled in the usual fashion this time around. Perhaps not...

Davian93
11-13-2009, 03:34 PM
lol, duh. But I got the impression that she had been Compelled in the usual fashion this time around. Perhaps not...

Nah, I think it was that initial Compulsion by Verin to make her "obey the Dragon Reborn" or whatever it was she had her do.

Interesting thought: Verin knew that Elza was Black Ajah...did Elza have any inkling that Verin was too? That would make the "How could YOU of all people follow him, Verin?" comment more interesting.

Terez
11-13-2009, 03:39 PM
Well, Elza was definitely on Verin's list. No telling if she was known before Verin Compelled her or not tho.

AbbeyRoad
11-13-2009, 03:42 PM
He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza.
Further proof of Amys or Sorilea being a Darkfriend, perhaps?

Brandon admitted there would be overlapping chronology between The Gathering Storm and The Towers of Midnight and that Graendalís name will be mentioned a few times.
It would be kind of cool to get a Graendal POV where she is interrogating Rand's bait and planning what to do to Rand right before the massive balefire fries everyone.

When it comes to Asmodeanís death or possibility of rebirth or potential killers, Brandon seems oddly obsessed with balefire being the means of death when discussing talking points.
Is it just me, or is Graendal becoming a more likely culprit?

Davian93
11-13-2009, 03:44 PM
Well, Elza was definitely on Verin's list. No telling if she was known before Verin Compelled her or not tho.

Yeah, I knew that. I meant to edit my post but a supervisor walked by so I just hit submit and minimized my screen.

Terez
11-13-2009, 03:44 PM
Further proof of Amys or Sorilea being a Darkfriend, perhaps?
It was Sorilea and Bair. But Shaidar Haran still could have nullified the wards, technically.

Is it just me, or is Graendal becoming a more likely culprit?
I think it's just you. I think that he was referring to the means of Asmodean's death. Unless there is reason to think otherwise?

AbbeyRoad
11-13-2009, 04:13 PM
It was Sorilea and Bair. But Shaidar Haran still could have nullified the wards, technically.
Yeah, got my names confused, thanks. And SH could certainly have nullified the wards technically (unless BS said he couldn't, as he said SH is limited and we don't know exactly how limited), but it certainly gives some evidence for the theory.

I think it's just you. I think that he was referring to the means of Asmodean's death. Unless there is reason to think otherwise?
Well, one of the common theories of Asmo's killer is that Slayer was hired by someone (i.e. Lanfear). Asmo being balefired kills that one.

Also, I know a lot of people think that Graendal being dead negates her likelihood as the killer. Her having more POV's makes her viable again.

Belazamon
11-13-2009, 07:21 PM
I think we need some clarification and I wish we had the audio on this answer because it seems more involved than the paraphrased answer we got. I'm not sure I understand why SH would have been incapable of placing the collar himself...yet capable of rape. As in, is it something having to do with the collar? Or am I just not reading that right?
My guess - location, location, location. Unless my memory fails me utterly, Moghedien's "punishment" took place in a vacuole, possibly right next door to the Bore (metaphysically speaking, of course).

nameless
11-13-2009, 07:56 PM
Shaidar Haran also demonstrated a decent amount of power of Mesaana and Alviarin, and they were definitely nowhere near the Bore at that point. Maybe he can exert some kind of mental control over Darkfriends but no one else? As far as we know no one who isn't a Darkfriend has ever even seen him.

Belazamon
11-13-2009, 09:11 PM
As far as we know no one who isn't a Darkfriend has ever even seen him.
That's not entirely true if you take into account the "beta versions."

nameless
11-13-2009, 09:14 PM
Versions, plural? The only beta I noticed was the one who beats up Jaichim in the Fortress of Light, and it teleported out of the room before anyone else saw it.

Belazamon
11-13-2009, 09:47 PM
I'm operating under the assumption that anytime we saw a smirky Fade, it was Shaidar Haran version 0.? - the one Rand met in Baerlon, f'rinstance.

FelixPax
11-13-2009, 10:09 PM
Interesting. I wonder who Compelled Elza! Seems it couldn't have been Shaidar Haran (not that I ever thought it likely he could do something like that). Perhaps Graendal was involved? Or Moridin?

Mesaana in the Prologue of tGS knew of a Black Ajah spy within Rand's group, and Mesaana claimed Semirhage did not mean to kill Rand during the pseudo-meeting with the Daughter of Nine Moons (KoD book).

So my best guess would be that Mesaana entered into Elza mind via the TAR and compelled her to action in Arad Doman. All this occurring on Shaidar Haran or the Dark One's direct orders likely. We know as a fact that compulsion in the TAR is more effective than in the real world, according to Moghedien.

Elza was a pawn of Mesaana's, going as far back as the White Tower embassy to captured Rand in Cairhien with Galina in the lead. Yes, Verin later used compulsion on Elza to re-route her allegiances towards supporting Rand, after the events at Dumai Wells...but obviously the Shadow learned Elza was being used by someone else (Verin) in tGS book.

An open question though, is did Mesaana use compulsion via the TAR on any of the "other" captured White Tower Embassy to Rand, who are with Rand now in Tear? Beldeine, Nesune, Sarene, Coiren, Erian?

Weird Harold
11-13-2009, 10:40 PM
Shaidar Haran also demonstrated a decent amount of power of Mesaana and Alviarin, and they were definitely nowhere near the Bore at that point. Maybe he can exert some kind of mental control over Darkfriends but no one else? As far as we know no one who isn't a Darkfriend has ever even seen him.
Somewher in Kinslayer's Dagger:

aCoS
Chapter 40
Spears
The Myrddraal moved from the deeper shadows, becoming visible. In its eyes, the gateways had left a residue - three patches of glowing mist. It could not tell one flow from another, but it could distinguish saidin from saidar by the smell. Saidin smelled like the sharp edge of a knife, the point of a thorn. Saidar smelled soft, but like something that would grow harder the harder it was pressed. No other Myrddraal could smell that difference. Shaidar Haran was like no other Myrddraal.


Picking up a discarded spear, Shaidar Haran used it to upend the bag Sammael had discarded, and then to stir the bits of stone that fell out. Much was happening outside the plan. Would these events churn chaos, or...


Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haran’s hand, the hand of the Hand of the Shadow. In an instant the wooden haft was charred and twisted; the spearhead dropped off. The Myrddraal let the blackened stick fall and dusted soot from its palm. If Sammael served chaos, then all was well. If not...


A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come.

Shaidar Haran is the Do's ROV/Telepresence Remote, but he apparently has a limited "battery life" What he can do is probably a function of how long since he recharged and how far he is from Shayol Ghul.

Frenzy
11-14-2009, 01:13 AM
Why assume Compulsion? The Aes Sedai were taking turns guarding/shielding Semirhage. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that Elza slipped in to try and help the Chosen with the hope of reward for her loyality.

Frenzy
11-14-2009, 01:17 AM
Brandon's obsession with balefire isn't surprising. Rand was pretty obsessed with it throughout the book.

FelixPax
11-14-2009, 02:03 AM
Why assume Compulsion? The Aes Sedai were taking turns guarding/shielding Semirhage. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that Elza slipped in to try and help the Chosen with the hope of reward for her loyality.

Something had to of altered Elza's mind to push her to find the Domination Band and to later attack the three Aes Sedai holding Semirhage's shield. That usually means compulsion, yes, especially after a prior oath to obey Rand to T'G.

"I live to serve, Great Mistress," the woman whispered. "I am instructed to tell you that there is Compulsion in my mind you are to remove."

...

"Also," the woman said, handling something forward, wrapped in cloth. "I am to give you this." She removed the cloth, revealing a dull-colored metallic collar, and two bracelets. The Domination Band. Crafted during the Breaking, strikingly similar to the a'dam Semirhage had spent so much time working with.
With this ter'angreal, a male channeler could be controlled. A smile finally broke through Semirhage's fear.

Yuri33
11-14-2009, 08:56 AM
I've always operated under the assumption that nameless indicated--that SH's power is largely limited to those pledged to the DO. We know that there's some kind of "aura" that marks darkfriends from others, as Fain was able to detect this (yes, his power is different, but it still proves there's a way to make the distinction).

A random spear being burnt up doesn't really speak against that.

This also speaks to my prediction that SH won't be involved in any direct battle with Rand or any other member of the Light. If his power were not limited to darkfriends, he'd be too difficult to kill. It also doesn't preclude him from being an effective spy, as he's already proven multiple times.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 09:17 AM
Something had to of altered Elza's mind to push her to find the Domination Band and to later attack the three Aes Sedai holding Semirhage's shield. That usually means compulsion, yes, especially after a prior oath to obey Rand to T'G.Why?

She had been motivated by a desire to see Rand reach TG alive, so that he could there be defeated by the DO.
Having Rand arrive for the Last Battle in chains, with Semirhage in complete control of him, definitely satisfies that motivation.

So there does not seem to be any contradiction between the Compulsion that Verin laid on her, and her actions in helping free Semirhage and capturing Rand.

Neilbert
11-14-2009, 01:10 PM
This also speaks to my prediction that SH won't be involved in any direct battle with Rand or any other member of the Light. If his power were not limited to darkfriends, he'd be too difficult to kill. It also doesn't preclude him from being an effective spy, as he's already proven multiple times.

I don't think his power is exactly limited to Darkfriends, that would make him too weak as a part of the Dark One.

I think he's overpowered, even if he is just essentially a True Power channeling Myrdraal who can deny his servants access to the One Power. I also think he is a gift, neatly wrapped and tied with a pretty bow, for Padan Fain.

Most people forget that Padan Fain hates the Dark One more than he hates Rand. He just feels powerless to do anything to really hurt the Dark One. Give the expert Myrdraal torturer a Myrdraal that is the Dark One and it would be like christmass for him.

Terez
11-14-2009, 01:21 PM
Yup, that would be sooo awesome, for Fain to get his hands on Shaidar Haran.

Davian93
11-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Yup, that would be sooo awesome, for Fain to get his hands on Shaidar Haran.

Fain killing the Fade is one of my favorite scenes in TGH. (even if it is in a memory/flashback). Fain is a badass.

Terez
11-14-2009, 01:45 PM
I wonder if Fain's Shadar Logoth opposing-the-Shadow power is how he can hurt Fades.

Davian93
11-14-2009, 01:48 PM
I wonder if Fain's Shadar Logoth opposing-the-Shadow power is how he can hurt Fades.

Could be. Has anyone ever explained Fain's temporary weakness every morning in TGH? Remember how he would wake up weak and have to reassert his control over the Fade?

Neilbert
11-14-2009, 02:02 PM
Nah, I just interpreted it as being a struggle, as Padin Fain's powers developed. He has been developing new powers almost every time we have seen him, but he isn't always proficient with them, and doesn't always understand how they work.