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Lilia
11-13-2009, 09:22 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but...

Mat is now in or almost in Caemlyn. Birgitte is currently in Caemlyn (obviously). Hopefully, in the next book the rescue of Moiraine will commence. I just finished rereading TSR. In chapter 28, Perrin meets with Birgitte outside the Tower of Ghenjei. She goes on to explain the dangers of the Tower to him. Now, hopefully, since Mat and Birgitte are ol' buddies, there will be some help of the hero kind in preparing for the trip to Ghenjei.

Terez
11-13-2009, 10:14 PM
Yeah, but no telling if she retains any memories of Ghenjei. She had all sorts of past life memories in Tel'aran'rhiod, but last we heard, she doesn't remember anything before the founding of the Tower, and those lives were beginning to fragment.

Would be cool if she does remember something though.

legends be wrought
11-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Theres no guarantee that Matt will even meet with her. It would be just like Matt to walk into Caemlyn very discreetly and avoid all attention of the new queen.

Weird Harold
11-13-2009, 10:24 PM
Yeah, but no telling if she retains any memories of Ghenjei. She had all sorts of past life memories in Tel'aran'rhiod, but last we heard, she doesn't remember anything before the founding of the Tower, and those lives were beginning to fragment.

Would be cool if she does remember something though.
The memories Mat recieved, and the mannerisms and accents Birgitte recognised, are all newer than 98AB when the Tower was founded. Birgitte might not remember any AOL or earlier dealings, but she should remember anything relvant from the Third Age.

Also, Birgitte isn't completely losing her older memories, they just aren't as vivid as the more recent memories -- "Like a book well read" is how she characterizes her past lives.

Terez
11-13-2009, 10:33 PM
The memories Mat recieved, and the mannerisms and accents Birgitte recognised, are all newer than 98AB when the Tower was founded. Birgitte might not remember any AOL or earlier dealings, but she should remember anything relvant from the Third Age.
It's possible she'll remember something about Ghenjei from recent lives, but there's no guarantee she had any knowledge of it in recent lives. She told Perrin that it was ancient evil, so obviously at least some her knowledge of it is quite old.

Also, Birgitte isn't completely losing her older memories, they just aren't as vivid as the more recent memories -- "Like a book well read" is how she characterizes her past lives.
No, she's totally losing her older memories. She said her lives were like books well-read when she was in Tel'aran'rhiod.

jason wolfbrother
11-13-2009, 11:07 PM
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 7 - The Streets of Caemlyn
As if to make up for her hurry, she took a moment to study the Guardswomen and return Caseille's salute before turning her mount to walk beside Elayne's. Unlike them, she wore neither sword nor armor. The memories of her past lives were fading-she said she could remember nothing at all clearly before the founding of the White Tower, now, though fragments still floated up-but one thing she claimed to recall absolutely. Every time she had tried to use a sword, she had nearly gotten herself killed, and had even done so more than once. Her strung bow was in a leather saddle-case, though, with a bristling quiver of arrows on the other side. Anger boiled in her, and she wore a frown that only deepened as she spoke.

Since the founding of the White Tower as of WH

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:11 PM
Thanks JWB - I was being lazy, lol. But there's also this:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 17 - A Bronze Bear

Nothing remained before the founding of the White Tower, and the four lives she had lived between then and the end of the Trolloc Wars were beginning to fragment. Little seemed to frighten her, yet she feared losing the rest, especially her memories of Gaidal Cain.

jason wolfbrother
11-13-2009, 11:21 PM
yeah that one showed up too but I saw the WH quote first. :) for some reason TL puts the books in chronoligical order when searched ;) ;)

Terez
11-13-2009, 11:38 PM
lol, we all have excuses! Me being lazy, you and your chronological order.....hmph!

Wunderwaffe
11-14-2009, 01:34 AM
Didn't Moiraine's letter imply extreme caution and discretion regarding the rescue operation? I'm fairly confident that if Mat revealed his intentions of rescuing Moiraine from the ToG disaster would strike. The mission would be doomed to fail from the start. Moiraine cautions them to remember what they know from Snakes and Foxes. This implies that they have the information they need to successfully mount a rescue operation without any additional help or advice.

Sarevok
11-14-2009, 02:37 AM
Theres no guarantee that Matt will even meet with her. It would be just like Matt to walk into Caemlyn very discreetly and avoid all attention of the new queen.
How does one walk into a city discreetly if there's an army following you around? I'm quite sure the queen and captain-general of Andor would come to check what's going on if another army showed up at the city gates.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 05:08 AM
How does one walk into a city discreetly if there's an army following you around? I'm quite sure the queen and captain-general of Andor would come to check what's going on if another army showed up at the city gates.On the other hand, if anyone is capable of sneaking ten thousand strong army into a city unnoticed, it's Mat. Of course, then he will give himself away when he tries to chat up a Windfinder, but that's another issue entirely.

Yuri33
11-14-2009, 09:29 AM
I think Olver is the key to any remaining knowledge from Birgette:

TGS, The Tipsy Gelding:
"And," Thom added, "I'll see if I can dig up hints for the incursion."
The Tower of Ghenjei. Mat shrugged. "We're more likely to find what we need in Four Kings or
Caemlyn."
"Yes, I know. But Olver made me promise to check. If you hadn't set Noal to keeping the boy distracted, I'd expect to open our saddlebags and find him in there. He really wanted to come."
"A night dancing and gambling is no place for a boy," Mat muttered. "I just wish I could trust the men back at camp not to corrupt him worse than a tavern would."
"Well, he stayed back quietly enough once Noal got out the board." Olver was convinced that if he played Snakes and Foxes enough, he'd
pick out some secret strategy for defeating the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. "The lad still thinks he's coming with us into the tower," Thom said more quietly. "He knows he can't be one of the three, but he plans to wait outside for us. Maybe burst in to save us if we don't come back soon enough. I don't want to be there when he discovers the truth."

Olver had plenty of time to hear Birgette's knowledge, before it had faded away, and now he's working hard to incorporate his knowledge of Snakes and Foxes with it. By the time the Band reaches Caemylin, Birgette will probably not have anything more to contribute, but I think Olver may have one last bit to add that will be critical.

PatsNats28
11-14-2009, 10:45 AM
I think Olver is the key to any remaining knowledge from Birgette:



Olver had plenty of time to hear Birgette's knowledge, before it had faded away, and now he's working hard to incorporate his knowledge of Snakes and Foxes with it. By the time the Band reaches Caemylin, Birgette will probably not have anything more to contribute, but I think Olver may have one last bit to add that will be critical.

That's a good point. He'll probably provide some info that Mat and Co. have overlooked (and that they will probably ignore)

Davian93
11-14-2009, 01:25 PM
That's a good point. He'll probably provide some info that Mat and Co. have overlooked (and that they will probably ignore)

Children say the darnest things. It would be nice for Olver to have a purpose other than bringing out the fatherly instincts of the Redarms and Mat...especially since he's not Gaidal Cain reborn.

Zaela Sedai
11-14-2009, 10:42 PM
Children say the darnest things. It would be nice for Olver to have a purpose other than bringing out the fatherly instincts of the Redarms and Mat...especially since he's not Gaidal Cain reborn.



He should be Cain reborn hmphhh....

Greyman
11-15-2009, 01:08 AM
How does one walk into a city discreetly if there's an army following you around? I'm quite sure the queen and captain-general of Andor would come to check what's going on if another army showed up at the city gates.Particularly since the main thing Mat wants do do in Caemlyn is start producing dragons--gather together bellfounders and all the metal, brimestone, and bat poop he can find. The Prince of Ravens is pretty much going to need to explain that to the Queen of Andor at some point.

Terez
11-15-2009, 01:40 AM
I have a feeling Mat is not Prince o the Ravens any more, now that Tuon is dead.

Weird Harold
11-15-2009, 02:36 AM
I have a feeling Mat is not Prince o the Ravens any more, now that Tuon is dead.
He is still likely to be Seanchan nobility even if his exact Title isn't "Prince of Ravens." Since we don't know what his new title might be, we will have to make do with "Prince of Ravens" for his Seanchan title.

Terez
11-15-2009, 03:43 AM
He is still likely to be Seanchan nobility even if his exact Title isn't "Prince of Ravens."
'Likely' is not the word. ;)

Belazamon
11-15-2009, 11:52 AM
'Likely' is not the word. ;)
To be fair, he could still end up as Seanchan property instead. ;)

Weird Harold
11-15-2009, 11:53 AM
'Likely' is not the word. ;)
Seanchan customs are weird. Maybe he has to marry Fortuona to regain a patent of nobility now that the woman he married is 'dead.' "Likely" was as certain as I felt confident in asserting as "fact."

In a less weird culture, I'd say Mat IS still married to the "Empress formerly known as Tuon" but we still don't know what his proper title is and "Prince of Ravens" is all we got.

greatwolf
11-15-2009, 12:17 PM
I have a feeling Mat is not Prince o the Ravens any more, now that Tuon is dead.

I'll agree with you and say you're totally right. Most places have laws that free a man from marriage when his wife dies. So Mat is a free man again. He can go after the women all he wants.
What was the topic again?

Cary Sedai
11-15-2009, 12:55 PM
I think he would still be Prince of Ravens. I don't think it's likely that Seanchan culture would elevate the Empress' husband to the same level as she (may she live forever) and the union wouldn't just be dissolved, since it was political in the first place, why disolve it...

Plus we have Tuon's POV musing over getting Toy in her clutches to teach him to behave properly as one of the blood.

In New Spring when Lan is at that one place (lol, yeah I'm lazy I don't want to look it up) The Queen is out of the castle/stronghold and her husband who is referred to as a Prince and not a king is holding down the fort. So... it seems reasonable that Matt is still a prince, no matter that Tuon is the Empress now (MSLF) :p

greatwolf
11-15-2009, 01:15 PM
The marriage symbolises a union between the two continents. With Tuon in charge. At least that's how she'll see it.;)

kivo
11-15-2009, 02:15 PM
In New Spring when Lan is at that one place (lol, yeah I'm lazy I don't want to look it up) The Queen is out of the castle/stronghold and her husband who is referred to as a Prince and not a king is holding down the fort. So... it seems reasonable that Matt is still a prince, no matter that Tuon is the Empress now (MSLF) :p

Right... also, in the real world, Queen Elizabeth's husband is Prince Phillip. The "Prince Consort" concept is not an unusual thing at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_consort

FelixPax
11-16-2009, 04:55 AM
Right... also, in the real world, Queen Elizabeth's husband is Prince Phillip. The "Prince Consort" concept is not an unusual thing at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_consort

I think a better historical example for Tuon and Mat's marriage is the Spanish Empire's Isbella I of Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile) and Ferdinand II of Aragon.

Prince Philip lacks the actual political, military power of his very own right, even the Queen of England is mostly a symbol now-- a very wealthy one, at that. While the 15th Century Spain the symbols were the actual leaders and each had a separate power base, which was united together into a greater whole.

The marriage symbolises a union between the two continents. With Tuon in charge. At least that's how she'll see it.

Agreed, except Tuon..err..Empress Fortuona wants to be in control of the relationship, especially in terms Sul'dam and Damane status in Seanchan lands.

However Tuon did let Mat take command openly with the Tinkers, when Selucia had other advice (KoD Chapter 8 "Dragons' Eggs"); also when Tuon agreed to Mat's agreement take Teslyn, Edesina, Joline, Bethamin, Seta with him, out of Altara because they are his followers. In some ways, that was a political compromise Tuon reached with Mat, letting damane, sul'dam go. Yet Tuon didn't think they would remain without the a'dam over time, as well. Why? Because the Empire is to reclaim all the continent, including the marath'damane.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 07:15 AM
Prince Philip lacks the actual political, military power of his very own right, even the Queen of England is mostly a symbol now-- a very wealthy one, at that.

Unrelated to WoT: The British Royal Family isn't all that rich when you get down to it. They're not even billionaires as they don't really own much of the wealth associated with them (royal art collection, crown jewels, Buckingham, Windsor, etc) as they are actually owned by the UK as a whole. The only residences they personally own are Balmoral and Sandringham.