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Tercel
11-14-2009, 04:25 AM
The signing in Dayton had some interesting Q&As (http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1043).

The True Power works by destroying the Pattern. Everything that is done with it involves damage to the Pattern. For example, when we see Ishamael Travel, he does so by poking a hole in the Pattern. Cuendillar can be destroyed using the True Power. There is another way to destroy cuendillar, too.I found this really quite enlightening. I've just reread tEotW prologue where Ishamael Travel's without a gateway, and assumed it was a continuity error due to RJ not having decided how Travelling worked at the time he wrote the first book.

It also supports my long-held belief that Cuendillar can be unmade by the One Power in the same sort of way it is made. Whatever process used to make it can presumably be reversed.

Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.

Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.Obviously the most trivial way for Mesaana to escape is for her to believe that 'darkfriends' and 'choosen' are significantly different.

Another completely different way to defeat the Oaths, which has annoyed/intrigued me (as a Philosophy grad) for some time is this: "I swear to speak no word that is not true", implies literally that no single word spoken will be false. Well, philosophically speaking, individual words have no truth values, truth values are complex relations between phrases, context, meaning and reality. If I took the oaths, I could quite easily say 'chalk is cheese' while holding the conviction that no words in that sentence are false.

Another way which comes to mind as I think about it is potentially to be wearing thin gloves.

Any other ideas?

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 05:15 AM
Another completely different way to defeat the Oaths, which has annoyed/intrigued me (as a Philosophy grad) for some time is this: "I swear to speak no word that is not true", implies literally that no single word spoken will be false. Well, philosophically speaking, individual words have no truth values, truth values are complex relations between phrases, context, meaning and reality. If I took the oaths, I could quite easily say 'chalk is cheese' while holding the conviction that no words in that sentence are false.Now and then, I ask someone to tell me a word that is not true. Just one single word. No one has managed it, yet. Most don't get it. Perhaps the entire White Ajah has figured out this loophole and has used it happily ever after, though. Could even be the necessary test for admittance to that Ajah, come to think of it.

Any other ideas?As Jamie Hyneman, of the Mythbusters, says "lard". Make sure your hands are really very greasy, so that there is no contact. Basically a variation on your gloves, but less easy to notice, I think.

Perhaps the Tar Valon Joke Shop can supply fake hands. That'd be a laugh, wouldn't it?

What is the largest number of non-conflicting Oaths that is possible, anyway>

Bonzi77
11-14-2009, 07:25 AM
Swearing on the oath rod seems somewhat in the eye of the swearer. The oath means whatever the person swearing honestly interprets it to mean. That's why the sisters who kidnapped Rand could use the power to beat him if they believed they were punishing him.

One thing I always wondered is about writing a lie. When Rand gets his letter from Alviarin he asks Moraine if Aes Sedai can write a lie, and she says that they can not. That always struck me as odd, since the oath says "speak no word".

Do the Aes Sedai have to state the words word for word? For example, could Mesaana say "by the light I will speak no word that is untrue." Since she has no reverence for the light whatsoever, that might invalidate the oath for her. Or perhaps it has something to do with the Dark One's mark.

Yuri33
11-14-2009, 09:39 AM
I don't think Mesaana is clever enough to use philosophical nuance to defeat the Oath Rod. I also think the "the Chosen are not Darkfriends" approach is bit lame as well. Mesaana will do everything in her power to avoid binding herself to anything, let alone the 3 Oaths, no matter if she can undo them later or not. It's too big a risk.

I'm thinking she'll be a little more mundane in her approach. Something like killing and assuming the identity of someone who already had re-sworn on the Oath Rod. In that case, her former identity, the one we've all been debating all this time, would likely be one of the three sisters that Egwene mentions are not accounted for.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 10:11 AM
Another, fairly simple, method would be not showing up for her turn of swearing, and then letting everyone believe she's done it already.

jason wolfbrother
11-14-2009, 10:25 AM
Except I'm fairly certain they would be on the lookout for exactly that. I'm sure Egwene and the Aes Sedai that are conducting the reswearing in are keeping a careful tally of who has and has not resworn the Oaths. Rereading Brandon's reply I think it is going to be a case of how Mesaana worded her "Oath".

Marie Curie 7
11-14-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm thinking she'll be a little more mundane in her approach. Something like killing and assuming the identity of someone who already had re-sworn on the Oath Rod. In that case, her former identity, the one we've all been debating all this time, would likely be one of the three sisters that Egwene mentions are not accounted for.

Mesaana's "former" identity can't be one of the three Egwene mentioned, if you're talking about these sisters:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: Epilogue - Bathed in Light

That left the three names on the list in front of Egwene. Nalasia Mer-han, a Brown; Teramina, a Green; and Jamilila Norsish, a Red. All were very weak in the Power. And the women on this list had all been in the Tower for years. It seemed implausible that Mesaana had been impersonating one of them and doing it so well that her subterfuge hadn't been noticed.

RJ said that we had seen Mesaana's alter ego, but these three sisters have never been mentioned before.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2009, 10:51 AM
There's still Danelle. She hasn't been heard of for quite a few books now. If she had stayed out of sight well enough, then she wouldn't be on the list of "should have been in the Tower". Then all that Mesaana has to do is get herself (as Danelle) added to the "has sworn, no problem" list, and she's good to go.

greatwolf
11-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Maybe it has something to do with what RJ said about sarcasm and the three oaths.


RJ's blog 20 January 2006 "IT'S BEEN A WHILE"

The Oath against lying does leave room for sarcasm. It is intent and result that matter. No sister can intentionally speak an untruth either with the intent of passing on false information or with the belief that false information might be passed on. Thus the careful slicing and dicing of words. But if someone were to hold up a piece of white cloth and ask whether it was black or white, someone who had sworn the Three Oaths would be capable of saying that it was black as a matter of sarcasm. But not if, for example, the person asking the question was blind and thus might well take the statement for truth rather than sarcasm

Neilbert
11-14-2009, 12:59 PM
Perhaps some sort of fake channeling?

Assuming only Aes Sedai are present you could do some inverted weave of illusion colored to look like spirit and swear an Oath on an oath rod that isn't actually doing anything at the time.

A warder wondering why he could see the weaves would ruin the game, but I don't recall anyone but Aes Sedai being invited to these parties.

1Powerslave
11-14-2009, 01:14 PM
Now and then, I ask someone to tell me a word that is not true. Just one single word. No one has managed it, yet. Most don't get it. Perhaps the entire White Ajah has figured out this loophole and has used it happily ever after, though. Could even be the necessary test for admittance to that Ajah, come to think of it.

I have two "apple" and "table".

kivo
11-14-2009, 05:08 PM
Now and then, I ask someone to tell me a word that is not true. Just one single word. No one has managed it, yet.

Poop.

I hope I've made your day. There is a vast abundance of words that are not true -- this sentence contains sixteen of them.

Belazamon
11-14-2009, 05:41 PM
Now and then, I ask someone to tell me a word that is not true. Just one single word. No one has managed it, yet.
Too simple.

"Untrue."

AbbeyRoad
11-14-2009, 06:44 PM
Nukular. George Bush used to use that one all the time.

Also: Libary. That one is pretty common, too.

Yuri33
11-14-2009, 06:53 PM
Creationism

AbbeyRoad
11-14-2009, 07:01 PM
Creationism
Booo.

Is there some sort of anti-rep on Theoryland?

Yuri33
11-14-2009, 07:22 PM
Q: Do the Seanchan consider the raid on the White Tower a success?

A: Yes, they consider it a success, but they’re disappointed that they didn’t get their hands on the Aes Sedai superweapon.

Well, that's interesting, considering Tuon's sentiments when she watches the raid leave. This obviously means they now have Traveling, as we all suspected. That will make the next meeting between Tuon and Rand very interesting.

Q: What will be the focus of the next book?

A: This book really needed to focus on Egwene and Rand, and get their stories moving. There was also a nice contrast between their arcs in this book, with Egwene’s going upwards and Rand’s downward. The next book will be much broader in scope – we need to see what’s going on with a lot of different parts of the story. There will be a lot more Mat and Perrin than in this one. I suppose you could say that if there was going to be a rescue attempt, the logic place to put it would be in a book with a lot of Mat .

Makes Egwene's cliff dream being fulfilled by her unifying the WT with her as Amrylin seem a bit more likely.

Q: Will we see what’s going on at the Black Tower?

A: We’ll see whether that fits in or not.

With a name like Towers of Midnight? I think BS is messing with the questioner on that one. Probably should have been a RAFO.

Q: Will Fain be in the next book?

A: Padan Fain will be seen again. He’s a mixture of two things – Mordeth’s power, which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow, and the Dark One’s Hound. Brandon said that Fain’s number one goal is to kill Rand, and a close second is to kill the Dark One. Now that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed, all of the Mordeth power that remains in the world is in Fain.

Hah! Maybe he does both at the same time!

Q: It’s pretty clear now that Moridin and Rand are linked because of the balefire incident. Since Rand used saidin to create the balefire, and now he gets sick when channeling saidin, does that mean Moridin gets sick when he tries to use the True Power?

A: You’re assuming that Rand’s channeling sickness comes from crossing the streams.

Could this be BS's "small detail?" It's been talked about, but not very often, and not in that much depth, I believe. I'm too lazy to look up when this first started, but it's certainly been in subsequent books.

Terez
11-14-2009, 07:30 PM
The sickness definitely didn't start before The Path of Daggers.

Tercel
11-14-2009, 07:55 PM
The sickness definitely didn't start before The Path of Daggers.I'm currently rereading tEotW, and I'm reminded of a long-held and forgotten theory of mine...

In tEotW Moiraine explains how wilders can sometimes learn to channel, but that most of the time they die. They are hit by spells of dizziness or brief sickness that come after each time they channel increasingly close to being at the same time. After than there are no outward signs for several years until they die horribly.

It is clearly depicted throughout the book that Rand has these periods of dizziness/sickness that come increasingly closer to when he last channeled, until at the very end of the book he is sick immediately after channeling.

I have always believed that therefore Rand is going to suffer the fatal effects of being a wilder in some number of years time. It could be that the effects on men and women are different, and that instead of suffering a sudden uncurable sickness, men suffer increasing sickness every time they hold saidin...

Although that said, it's pretty telling that Rand sees Moiridin's face whenever he experiences the dizziness! So I think BS is trying to lead us up the garden path with this one.

Sei'taer
11-14-2009, 08:09 PM
If she's wearing an illusion, then maybe she didn't actually touch the rod when she took the oaths.

Terez
11-14-2009, 08:18 PM
Although that said, it's pretty telling that Rand sees Moiridin's face whenever he experiences the dizziness! So I think BS is trying to lead us up the garden path with this one.
Yeah, I think he is. There's a possibility that something else is causing the sickness, but what could it be? Also, Moridin appears to be nauseous once when Rand sees his face through the link.

Lord Bloodpath
11-14-2009, 10:14 PM
I think Rand is sick because of remnants of the Taint and Moridin is experiencing it because of the fact that they are linked. Just like his hand hurts.

ArtK
11-14-2009, 10:54 PM
Obviously the most trivial way for Mesaana to escape is for her to believe that 'darkfriends' and 'choosen' are significantly different.

Another completely different way to defeat the Oaths, which has annoyed/intrigued me (as a Philosophy grad) for some time is this: "I swear to speak no word that is not true", implies literally that no single word spoken will be false. Well, philosophically speaking, individual words have no truth values, truth values are complex relations between phrases, context, meaning and reality. If I took the oaths, I could quite easily say 'chalk is cheese' while holding the conviction that no words in that sentence are false.

Another way which comes to mind as I think about it is potentially to be wearing thin gloves.

Any other ideas?

I've always suspected she wasn't, rather was pretending to be one of the non-channelers. If she is/was posing as Aes Sedai, she would have to use illusion to provide the "Aes Sedai face". But if she's going to use illusion anyway, why not pretend to be a non-channeler. I've long suspected the "Mistress of the Kitchens" (whose name I don't remember at the moment), and this book has intensified this suspicion.

Note that this approach, while not defeating the oaths, would defeat the oath rod, since nobody would be expecting her to participate.

Another point of interest is that Alviarin thought her face was familiar, but couldn't bring the context (of her recognition) to mind. This probably wouldn't square with the "mistress of the kitchens" notion, but she could be posing as a servant of one of the black sisters.

Belazamon
11-14-2009, 10:57 PM
I've long suspected the "Mistress of the Kitchens" (whose name I don't remember at the moment), and this book has intensified this suspicion.
Welcome to the fold. :D