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Ahava
11-14-2009, 05:12 PM
Just finished my second read through of TGS and thought of a question. I don't think this has been discussed yet. If it has, I apologize. Is there a dream ter’angreal still at large somewhere?

“In the chaos of the Seanchan attack, Siuan hadn’t been able to watch Sheriam. Why did the Keeper wear a bandage on her left hand? Egwene didn’t believe her excuse of an accident while riding, her little finger getting caught in the reins. Why had she refused Healing? Blast Siuan! Instead of watching Sheriam, she’d come to kidnap Egwene!”

So it seems Sheriam is missing a finger. And we can be fairly certain why:

“Ah, sleepweavers," the figure said. “Yes, those could be useful. How many?"
Sheriam hesitated. Her first instinct was to lie or hedge—this seemed like information she could hold over the figure. But lying to one of the Chosen? A poor choice. "We had twenty," Sheriam said truthfully. "But one was with the woman Leane, who was captured. That leaves us with nineteen.” Just enough for Egwene’s meetings in the World of Dreams—one for each of the Sitters and one for Sheriam herself.
“Yes,” the figure hissed, shrouded in darkness. “Useful indeed. Steal the sleepweavers… Each of the sleepweavers you fail to acquire in that time will cost you a finger or a toe.” … Steal the sleepweavers! All nineteen of them? In three days?”

“Sheriam wasn’t lying,” Lelaine said. The ter’angreal used for dreams are gone. All of them.”

There are at least 2 possibilities here. One is that Mesaana really expected Sheriam to steal all 20 ter’angreal, not caring that one was lost with Leane (Siuan has it in reality). The other is that Sheriam gave Mesaana 18 of the sleepweavers. This would mean that we should begin making theories about what she did with number 19 instead and why, obviously the more entertaining choice.

Cutting off a finger rather than a toe makes it seem like we were meant to notice. After all, the black ajah survives based on secrecy. It would be much easier to keep a missing toe quiet than a finger. Perhaps this also has something to do with why so many of the black ajah escaped. They knew they were about to be unveiled because of the stealing of the ter’angreal. I don’t know. I'm new at all of this. What do you all think?

Terez
11-14-2009, 05:40 PM
I doubt that Mesaana would have punished her for Leane's ter'angreal, though I suppose it is possible. Also, it may be that she lost toes as well, so no telling if she got 18 or less. But she expected to be able to get all of them, since they were all in one place, presumably.

Belazamon
11-14-2009, 06:36 PM
The other is that Sheriam gave Mesaana 18 of the sleepweavers. This would mean that we should begin making theories about what she did with number 19 instead and why, obviously the more entertaining choice.
Hmmmm... good point! I got nothin' myself, but maybe it'll be important later. :D

Of course, the much more depressing alternative is that Sheriam just got the final ter'angreal a day late.

Frenzy
11-14-2009, 06:49 PM
i never imagined Mesaana as Yakuza.

Even if Sheriam managed to keep #19 to herself or to another black sister, who would have it now? Egwene flushed thru the entire Salidar crew.

nameless
11-14-2009, 07:56 PM
If she'd managed to get her hands on it she would have turned it over along with the others. The most likely explanation is that she was punished for failing to retrieve all 20 because the Chosen don't look kindly on excuses like "the one Leane had was in the Tower and it's physically impossible for me to get my hands on it." The second most likely explanation is the one of the Salidar Aes Sedai pulled the same trick as Siuan and checked out one of the dreamweavers without telling anybody, inadvertently screwing Sheriam over in the process.

Greyman
11-14-2009, 11:29 PM
I doubt that Mesaana would have punished her for Leane's ter'angreal, though I suppose it is possible. Also, it may be that she lost toes as well, so no telling if she got 18 or less. But she expected to be able to get all of them, since they were all in one place, presumably.Presumably yes, but then again, the Aes Sedai have a remarkably poor record of keeping their precious 'angreal secure. They tend to get 'borrowed' with alarming frequency.

At least Egwene has decided that just locking the Tower's cache behind an old door in the basement is not enough anymore; what with the number of times the Oath Rod went walkabout even before she worked out how to get passed the Wards by simply Travelling into the store room.

So it's quite possible that someone else has apropriated the sleepweavers--and decided to keep it quiet now that the theft of the others has been revealed. Thus when we next read of one being used, we can't simply assume that it's by a Black.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2009, 05:15 AM
At least Egwene has decided that just locking the Tower's cache behind an old door in the basement is not enough anymore; what with the number of times the Oath Rod went walkabout even before she worked out how to get passed the Wards by simply Travelling into the store room.Question: why did not a single of the Forsaken, who have been so desperately searching for angreal and sa'angreal throughout the series, use this trick?

Terez
11-15-2009, 07:14 AM
Well, I'll fight the tendency to write it off as a plot hole, and offer this suggestion: maybe they feared that, once the 'angreal were discovered missing, that someone with the (rare) Talent of reading residue would then be able to discover Traveling by investigating the crime scene.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2009, 07:19 AM
A problem which could have been solved by the seemingly simple expedient of obliterating the entire Tower, thus burying the evidence under the rubble.
But I admit that I may be more destructively inclined than the Forsaken. Especially the female ones are nice and cuddly compared to me.

ArtK
11-15-2009, 07:51 AM
IIRC when Aviendha left Caemlyn Elayne lent her the dreamweaver she had, which was the original one. I recall mention of Suian being resistant to letting the original go.

Unless my memory has failed me here, this would constitute a genuine plot hole, since Egwene definitely thinks about Elayne's disappointment when she finds out the original has been stolen (in tGS).

I wish I had time to go look up references, but hopefully somebody with the facts at their fingertips (heh) will confirm/correct here.

If Sheriam has failed to recover the only one that lacks the "protections" for novices (i.e. works properly), Mesaana may have been angry enough to take a finger despite the risk.

BTW, I've always suspected that the reason Elayne couldn't fully duplicate the original is that it requires using both saidin and saidar. Alternatively, it may be that it's one of the type of ter'angreal that needs to be unique (can't be exactly duplicated). The "oath rods" appear to be like this, although the different numbers make each technically unique.

Davian93
11-15-2009, 11:01 AM
No, the Hall didn't let Elayne take the original. She's been using a copy since she left Salidar with Nynaeve.

Weird Harold
11-15-2009, 01:18 PM
No, the Hall didn't let Elayne take the original. She's been using a copy since she left Salidar with Nynaeve.
According to the Encyclopedia's summary of the "Twisted Ring" Elayne had the original in Winter's Heart and she hasn't been back to the Tower or Rebel Camp since leaving for Ebou Dar.

WH,Ch10 - Elayne uses the original twisted ring and Nynaeve uses a copy to visit Tel'aran'rhiod and meet with Egwene.

There seems to be some confusion in the eWOT summary though becaue it also says Siuan uses the Twisted Ring to confer with Egwene after she's captured without specifying that it is a copy Elayne made.

Elayne did send the Twisted Ring she had been using with Aviendha and kept a different Dreamweaver ring that requires Channeling.

Matoyak
11-15-2009, 08:56 PM
IIRC, there is a section in tGS where Egwene thinks "Elayne would be [pissed] because the original ter'angreal she had copied from had been stolen"
Or something like that...

Davian93
11-15-2009, 10:24 PM
For some reason I thought Elayne didn't have it. My apologies. Thanks WH.

ArtK
11-15-2009, 10:34 PM
According to the Encyclopedia's summary of the "Twisted Ring" Elayne had the original in Winter's Heart and she hasn't been back to the Tower or Rebel Camp since leaving for Ebou Dar.



There seems to be some confusion in the eWOT summary though becaue it also says Siuan uses the Twisted Ring to confer with Egwene after she's captured without specifying that it is a copy Elayne made.

Elayne did send the Twisted Ring she had been using with Aviendha and kept a different Dreamweaver ring that requires Channeling.

AFAIK none of the rings requires channeling, it's the other types that do.

As for Siuan's conferences with Egwene, she certainly would have used the original if it were available, there were several mentions during the initial training that Siuan insisted on using that ring. Either way, then, it wouldn't have been delivered to Mesaana.

the silent speaker
11-15-2009, 10:53 PM
A problem which could have been solved by the seemingly simple expedient of obliterating the entire Tower, thus burying the evidence under the rubble.
But I admit that I may be more destructively inclined than the Forsaken. Especially the female ones are nice and cuddly compared to me.
Wouldn't work. Mesaana won't do it because it means destroying her power base, and no other Forsaken will do it because it means invading Mesaana's power base, an act which she might not look too kindly on.

Terez
11-15-2009, 10:57 PM
I believe Gonzo was being facetious. That's usually a safe bet, with Gonzo.

Weird Harold
11-16-2009, 12:46 AM
AFAIK none of the rings requires channeling, it's the other types that do.

eWOT/items/silver_ring.html

Silver Ring
A silver ring worked in braided spirals. A ter'angreal. Channeling Spirit into it leads one into sleep, then into Tel'aran'rhiod.

References
...

KoD,Ch15 – The silver ring is recovered from Ispan.
KoD,Ch15 – Elayne keeps the silver ring so she can enter Tel'aran'rhiod if she can channel well enough.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 08:09 AM
eWOT/items/silver_ring.html

Silver Ring
A silver ring worked in braided spirals. A ter'angreal. Channeling Spirit into it leads one into sleep, then into Tel'aran'rhiod.

References
...

KoD,Ch15 – The silver ring is recovered from Ispan.
KoD,Ch15 – Elayne keeps the silver ring so she can enter Tel'aran'rhiod if she can channel well enough.


So I'm not crazy...good.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 08:15 AM
I believe Gonzo was being facetious. That's usually a safe bet, with Gonzo.Yes and no. Suppose that Mesaana had taken the entire BA away from the Tower, nicked all the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal from the stores, and then had obliterated the Tower itself.
That would have destroyed the AS as a united force, it would have very seriously weakened the forces of the Light, frightened many people, and it would still have left her at least as strong as she is now.
As an added bonus, it could have been blamed on Rand. That wouldn't convince women who can read channeling residues, if they actually went there, but many others would have used the Gawyn approach: "it is a rumor, so it must be true".

Terez
11-16-2009, 08:39 AM
So I'm not crazy...good.
As an aside....

1. The ring was stone and multi-colored, not silver.
2. It doesn't require channeling. That was an RJ error (I posted it a few years ago in the Errors thread on Theoryland main).

Davian93
11-16-2009, 08:47 AM
As an aside....

1. The ring was stone and multi-colored, not silver.
2. It doesn't require channeling. That was an RJ error (I posted it a few years ago in the Errors thread on Theoryland main).

Yeah, I noticed that when I checked the book. Did RJ ever correct it? (or explain it?) I was sure that Elayne couldn't enter TAR and thus Avi met with Egwene (which was correct) but I wasn't sure if the error was the ter'angreal used or the fact that the stone ring doesn't need to be channeled at to be used.

ArtK
11-16-2009, 08:59 AM
eWOT/items/silver_ring.html

Silver Ring
A silver ring worked in braided spirals. A ter'angreal. Channeling Spirit into it leads one into sleep, then into Tel'aran'rhiod.

References
...

KoD,Ch15 – The silver ring is recovered from Ispan.
KoD,Ch15 – Elayne keeps the silver ring so she can enter Tel'aran'rhiod if she can channel well enough.


I stand corrected. I was referring to the "twisted rings" made from stone (with the topology of a moebius strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip)), I had forgotten (or never noticed) that one of the other types, which required channeling, was in the form of a ring.

ArtK
11-16-2009, 09:06 AM
As an aside....

1. The ring was stone and multi-colored, not silver.
2. It doesn't require channeling. That was an RJ error (I posted it a few years ago in the Errors thread on Theoryland main).

Two different types of ring. The original "twisted ring" was stone, tri-colored, and didn't require channeling. The copies made by Elayne were also stone, but only bi-colored, and also didn't require channeling (but formed a weak connection of the type used for training novices during the AoL).

All the other dreamweavers required channeling, including, evidently, one in the form of a silver braided ring. (They also formed a weak connection.)

Terez
11-16-2009, 09:23 AM
The one that Aviendha had was the twisted stone ring, though. This is one of the many Encyclopaedia errors (which are often in cases like these, trying to explain away book errors).

DahLliA
11-16-2009, 12:26 PM
Yes and no. Suppose that Mesaana had taken the entire BA away from the Tower, nicked all the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal from the stores, and then had obliterated the Tower itself.
That would have destroyed the AS as a united force, it would have very seriously weakened the forces of the Light, frightened many people, and it would still have left her at least as strong as she is now.
As an added bonus, it could have been blamed on Rand. That wouldn't convince women who can read channeling residues, if they actually went there, but many others would have used the Gawyn approach: "it is a rumor, so it must be true".

but that would have been a smart move. from a forsaken. if we had smart forsaken the DO would have been free before EotW was done :p

Weird Harold
11-16-2009, 02:14 PM
The one that Aviendha had was the twisted stone ring, though. This is one of the many Encyclopaedia errors (which are often in cases like these, trying to explain away book errors).
The Silver Ring is the one Elayne kept, not the one Aviendha has. According to eWOT, Elayne gave the original Twisted Ring to Aviendha when she left and kept the Silver Ring recovered from Ispan.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested Aviendha has or has used the Silver Ring dreamweaver.

ArtK
11-16-2009, 11:07 PM
The Silver Ring is the one Elayne kept, not the one Aviendha has. According to eWOT, Elayne gave the original Twisted Ring to Aviendha when she left and kept the Silver Ring recovered from Ispan.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested Aviendha has or has used the Silver Ring dreamweaver.

Assuming Egwene doesn't know about Elayne giving the original Twisted Ring to Aviendha, she should believe Elayne still has it. So why do we have Egwene commiserating in spirit with Elayne over its loss to Mesaana in tGS? I see three possibilities:

1. Egwene forgot.

2. Through balefire or some other way of messing around with time, Egwene's memories don't match reality now.

3. Author error.

All three of these seem pretty lame, or at least unsatifying. Any other ideas?

Weird Harold
11-17-2009, 02:25 AM
Assuming Egwene doesn't know about Elayne giving the original Twisted Ring to Aviendha, she should believe Elayne still has it. So why do we have Egwene commiserating in spirit with Elayne over its loss to Mesaana in tGS? I see three possibilities:

1. Egwene forgot.

2. Through balefire or some other way of messing around with time, Egwene's memories don't match reality now.

3. Author error.

All three of these seem pretty lame, or at least unsatifying. Any other ideas?
I'd say a continuity error. Possibly an eWOT error, I didn't track down the sources given for the references.

FelixPax
11-17-2009, 05:00 AM
The Silver Ring is the one Elayne kept, not the one Aviendha has. According to eWOT, Elayne gave the original Twisted Ring to Aviendha when she left and kept the Silver Ring recovered from Ispan.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested Aviendha has or has used the Silver Ring dreamweaver.

That scene between Elayne and Aviendha quoted:

Both were angreal. Placing the antler-hilted dagger in the chest, she picked up the turtle, and then, impulsively, snatched up the twisted stone dream ring, all red and blue and brown. It seemed to be useless to her since she became pregnant, and if she could manage to weave Spirit, she still had the silver ring, worked in braided spirals, that had been recovered from Ispan.

ArtK - I agree, it seems more likely to be "continuity error" as Weird Harold mentioned previously.

Terez
11-17-2009, 05:49 AM
The Silver Ring is the one Elayne kept, not the one Aviendha has. According to eWOT, Elayne gave the original Twisted Ring to Aviendha when she left and kept the Silver Ring recovered from Ispan.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested Aviendha has or has used the Silver Ring dreamweaver. This is the original RJ error:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

The woman who finally appeared in the room, though, just flashing into existence, was not Elayne but Aviendha, surprisingly garbed in silver-embroidered blue silk, with pale lace at her wrists and throat. The heavy bracelet of carved ivory she wore seemed as much out of place with that dress as the dream ter’angreal that dangled from a leather cord around her neck, a strangely twisted stone ring flecked with color.

“Where is Elayne?” Egwene asked anxiously. “Is she all right?”

The Aiel woman gave a startled glance at herself, and abruptly she was in a dark bulky skirt and white blouse, with a dark shawl draped over her shoulders and a dark kerchief folded around her temples to hold the reddish hair that now hung to her waist, longer than in life, Egwene suspected. Everything was mutable in the World of Dreams. A silver necklace appeared around her neck, complicated strands of intricately worked discs that the Kandori called snowflakes, a gift from Egwene herself what seemed a very long time ago. “She could not make this work,” Aviendha said, the ivory bracelet sliding on her wrist as she touched the twisted ring that still hung from its strip of leather, above the necklace now. “The flows kept slipping away from her. It is the babes.” Suddenly, she grinned. Her emerald eyes seemed almost to shine. “She has a wonderful temper, sometimes. She threw the ring down and jumped up and down on it.” The silver ring might possibly have been invented as a means of fixing this error. I'd be interested in seeing what new editions of Crossroads have for this passage. :)

In any case, there's no mention of Aviendha being misty in this passage, so no reason to believe it's not the original, and every reason to believe it is, since Elayne would have wanted to keep that one (and she had Egwene's authority behind her when she left Salidar, so there was no one to stop her taking it).

Here's the quote from when Aviendha and Elayne part ways:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 15 - A Different Skill

“Wait,” Elayne told them. “Please wait, just a moment.” Clutching the dagger, she raced to her dressing room. Sephanie paused in hanging up Aviendha’s blue dress to curtsy, but Elayne ignored her and opened the carved lid of her ivory jewelry chest. Sitting atop the necklaces and bracelets and pins in their compartments were a brooch in the shape of a turtle that appeared to be amber and a seated woman, wrapped in her own hair, apparently carved from age-darkened ivory. Both were angreal. Placing the antler-hilted dagger in the chest, she picked up the turtle, and then, impulsively, snatched up the twisted stone dream ring, all red and blue and brown. It seemed to be useless to her since she became pregnant, and if she could manage to weave Spirit, she still had the silver ring, worked in braided spirals, that had been recovered from Ispan. Anyway, this one flew under the radar when I read Knife of Dreams. Seems to be an RJ attempt to fix an error, rather than an Encyclopaedia attempt (though there are a few of those).

lurk
11-17-2009, 07:36 AM
Maybe this thread is not the right one, but talking about the stash of angreal etc in the tower made me think.

Would the AS keep male angreal/s'angreal in the stash, hidden away from male channelers? There seem a lot more female angreal than male angreal in the story which would not make sense to me.

Of course the male could have been lost in the breaking, but still, the AS keep most of their angreal hidden in the tower. Makes sense to believe that they would keep some male angreal there.

any thoughts?

oh btw, would Vora's s'angreal be as powerful as callandor? if there is a very powerful male s'angreal it makes sense there is a very powerful female s'angreal. Although callandor technically needs to be wielded by a circle

Davian93
11-17-2009, 08:35 AM
I doubt Vora's sa'angreal is as strong as Callandor...just a feeling.

On the male angreal: My guess is that female AS would likely destroy any male angreal they found during the breaking if for no other reason than to keep it out of a crazy male's hands. That would explain why there are so few of them around.

Bonzi77
11-17-2009, 08:50 AM
I doubt Vora's sa'angreal is as strong as Callandor...just a feeling.

On the male angreal: My guess is that female AS would likely destroy any male angreal they found during the breaking if for no other reason than to keep it out of a crazy male's hands. That would explain why there are so few of them around.

Good point. And also, there hasn't been a centralized group of male channelers collecting them. There could be more male angreal than are known, but they're buried and scattered because no one has been collecting them. In some cases the female Aes Sedai wouldn't even recognize a male angreal if they saw it.

Davian93
11-17-2009, 08:51 AM
Good point. And also, there hasn't been a centralized group of male channelers collecting them. There could be more male angreal than are known, but they're buried and scattered because no one has been collecting them. In some cases the female Aes Sedai wouldn't even recognize a male angreal if they saw it.

Exactly...it'd be just another statue to them. Sure, it MIGHT be power related but they wouldn't know just from picking it up. Like that one Bayle Domon had on his ship...I wonder whatever happened to that.

lurk
11-17-2009, 08:52 AM
Well Vora's s'angreal is the only other s'angreal we know of besides callandor that has a unique name. The CK refers to both the male and the female version. Of course because they were meant to be wielded in unison, but you can acces them separately. I do not remember any other s'angreal mentioned in the storyline btw. So it could easily be that s'angreal are so rare they deserve to be named separately.

Al angreal are named after what they look like, a broche, a turtle, a statuette etc.

Bonzi77
11-17-2009, 08:55 AM
Do we know who Vora was? Unless I'm forgetting the backstory on that sa'angreal, I don't think we know who she is. It could have simply been the person who found it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 09:22 AM
Good point. And also, there hasn't been a centralized group of male channelers collecting them. There could be more male angreal than are known, but they're buried and scattered because no one has been collecting them. In some cases the female Aes Sedai wouldn't even recognize a male angreal if they saw it.When Elayne and Aviendha were searching through the cache that they had found in Ebou Dar, they dropped everything that they didn't recognise as Power related. I've always wondered how many saidin attuned things got tossed by the wayside.

Ishara
11-17-2009, 09:23 AM
Well, fwiw, I just just checked Ecyclopedia WoT (via T's link - thanks T!) and that name doesn't show up. *shrug*

lurk
11-17-2009, 10:00 AM
On a side note, for how long would the surviving AS after the breaking have been able to create angreal etc? one generation, two? we know for sure the making of them was lost after the breaking, but how long?

And would there have been (maybe not yet completely mad) male channelers able to create angreal etc.after the breaking? And can an angreal etc. therefore be tainted?

Bonzi77
11-17-2009, 10:06 AM
On a side note, for how long would the surviving AS after the breaking have been able to create angreal etc? one generation, two? we know for sure the making of them was lost after the breaking, but how long?

And would there have been (maybe not yet completely mad) male channelers able to create angreal etc.after the breaking? And can an angreal etc. therefore be tainted?

I wouldn't think it would have survived long. People were too busy running for their lives to pass along any information. It would have been mostly gone after a generation. Maybe a handful of people passed it on, but it would have faded from memory quickly.

Angreal can not be tainted, at least not in the way saidin was tainted. Angreal don't have power in and of themselves the only amplify the power from the true source.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 11:01 AM
On a side note, for how long would the surviving AS after the breaking have been able to create angreal etc? one generation, two? we know for sure the making of them was lost after the breaking, but how long?The breaking lasted a number of generations. I suspect that during the breaking, the most accomplished AS (which means those capable of making angreal and the like) were generally busy dealing with male channnelers, which will have reduced their life span a bit. And the teaching opportunities, for that matter.

And would there have been (maybe not yet completely mad) male channelers able to create angreal etc.after the breaking? And can an angreal etc. therefore be tainted?The breaking was said to have ended when the last male AS died. The only sensible distinction between male AS and "other male channeler" seems one of training, so as long as there were male channelers who had been taught how to do things (like make angreal), the breaking wasn't over.

Weird Harold
11-17-2009, 11:16 AM
The breaking lasted a number of generations.

Channeler generations or muggle generations?

There are some hints that Aes Sedai took apprentices after the breakdown of civilization to pass on what knowledge they could -- The White Tower was formed from several groups of such attempts to preserve knowledge.

If the Breaking ended when the last male AS died, then there is a distinct possibility that some AOL-Trained Female AS were still alive -- since women generally live longer than men and nobody was trying to eradicate female channelers. (At least women live longer once complications of child-birth are discounted; which we can probably do for AS during the Breaking.)

Some knowledge of how to make *'angreal probably survived the Breaking and should have been available to the founders of the White Tower in 98 AB. It would be interesting to know why the knowledge was lost to the White Tower since then; I can guess at a couple of reasons, but they're only guesses.

Ishara
11-17-2009, 11:38 AM
And we know that at least 2 AS from the AoL survived well past the Breaking, from Rand's "memories" alone. There had to have been more than just those two.

Neilbert
11-17-2009, 12:30 PM
Even odder things like Traveling were lost. Gateways don't take any Talent, or even Power to teach the weave. It seems odd that something so practical and teachable would die out.

There were up to 5 gholem active at the time, and Ishamael was free for a time. Perhaps Ishamael killed off knowledge, and surviving Aes Sedai.

greatwolf
11-17-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't think Ishamael would have wanted any competiton surviving. He might have used the confusion of the breaking to off quite a few of the female AS. If he used the TP, it would have created even more confusion since at the time people would have thyought he was sealed away.

Terez
11-17-2009, 01:46 PM
And we know that at least 2 AS from the AoL survived well past the Breaking, from Rand's "memories" alone. There had to have been more than just those two.
RJ said that those Aes Sedai weren't quite that old.


Barnes and Noble chat 19 October 1998 (http://www.sevenspokes.com/author/chats.html)

John from Front Royal, Virginia: Were either of the Aes Sedai seen at Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising Deindre, the Age of Legends Aes Sedai from the beginning of the Breaking? Is she responsible for Foretelling the entire Prophecies of the Dragon? Thank you for taking time to respond to our questions this evening.
RJ: No, she wasn't, and you're welcome.


The Path of Daggers book tour 15 November 1998, Dayton, OH - Michael Martin reporting (http://linuxmafia.com/%7Epam/POD_signings.html#la)

Q: "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?".
RJ: "No. No, she was not from the Age of Legends."

Ishara
11-17-2009, 01:51 PM
Hmmm. Well the second question/ answer definitely squelched that idea, but then how could she be AS at the time? It would have been prior to the White Tower, right? But post AoL. Doesn't that preclude them from being AS then? It may be semantics though...

Terez
11-17-2009, 01:52 PM
The Tower was founded in 70 AB (After Breaking), so I'm not sure why you think it would be pre-Tower.

Enigma
11-19-2009, 02:52 PM
Even odder things like Traveling were lost. Gateways don't take any Talent, or even Power to teach the weave. It seems odd that something so practical and teachable would die out.

Part of the reason traveling may have been lost is that the world was changing on a daily basis. Traveling to any point out of sight might be dangerous for the simple reason that the place you are opening a gateway to could be under the ocean or in the middle of a man made volcano or any number of other natural disasters.

one would think that the line of sight traveling would still be useful but part of the proplem may have been the way AS were taught.

If you come from a high tech era you probably learn the theory and then move on to practicals. While ordinarly technology may have been on the way out during the war the technology of the OP may also have been effected. As weapons like shock lances and sho wings became rarer the need for AS would grow to counter the Shadowspawn.

If trainee AS were being rushed out of training school as fast as possible their education may have narrowed to battle weaves the leadership probably hoped that if they won the war those warrior AS could go back to school and learn how to build skyscrapers and the such when the war ended.

The only trouble is that after the strike they still had to mop up the Shadow forces and before they could go back to school they were either going mad or trying to stop the mad AS. Things go down hill from there and you have female AS with a narrow ability base and little in the overall channeling theory that would allow them to expand what they can do in better times. Effectivly they know how to do some things but don't really know why things work the way they do so they can't experement. If that is the case its a lot easier to see knowledge being lost when you add in mad AS, a shifting world, bandits and general distruct if not hatred of AS by civiliains.

Ishara
11-19-2009, 03:02 PM
The Tower was founded in 70 AB (After Breaking), so I'm not sure why you think it would be pre-Tower.

Cause I don't have the timeline mapped out in my brain like you do? :p Seriously that early eh? Assuming that the zero hour for AB is the day of the Last Strike? Or am I getting that wrong too?

Subucula Tertia
11-19-2009, 03:26 PM
Cause I don't have the timeline mapped out in my brain like you do? :p Seriously that early eh? Assuming that the zero hour for AB is the day of the Last Strike? Or am I getting that wrong too?

The Toman Calendar (devised by Toma dur Ahmid) was adopted approximately two centuries after the death of the last male Aes Sedai, recording years After the Breaking of the World (AB).

Unless the Guide says something about this, it seems pretty vague. Is the year the last male Aes Sedai died AB 1 (or 0) or is it AB ~-200?

GonzoTheGreat
11-20-2009, 04:06 AM
Since the Breaking of the World, three dating systems have attained enough popular appeal to become standard calendars. The first to come into use after the Breaking was known as the Toman Calendar, so named for its creator Toma dur Ahmid. It used the delineation AB for After the Breaking, and began with year 1 AB. Because of the tumult of the period, this Calendar was not actually adapted until some two hundred years after the death of the last male Aes Sedai (which officially ended the Breaking). Even then, owing to the total chaos during the Breaking and its immediate aftermath, its starting point had to be arbitrarily assigned. The Toman Calendar was in use until the end of the Trolloc Wars.So AB 1 was more or less the year after the last male AS died, something like 300 years after the Strike on SG. Give or take four score and seven years, of course.

Actually, if you want some more accuracy, then the previous chapter gives:
Various fragmentary sources put the actual duration of the Breaking - that is, the major geological and climatic upheavals - at anywhere from 239 to 344 years. Since these sources date from the days between the end of the Breaking and the founding of the Compact of the Ten Nations, it is possible that some of these writers had access to still earlier source material, but none can be taken as definitive.

a dragonburned fool
11-20-2009, 05:52 AM
If trainee AS were being rushed out of training school as fast as possible their education may have narrowed to battle weaves the leadership probably hoped that if they won the war those warrior AS could go back to school and learn how to build skyscrapers and the such when the war ended.

The only trouble is that after the strike they still had to mop up the Shadow forces and before they could go back to school they were either going mad or trying to stop the mad AS. Things go down hill from there and you have female AS with a narrow ability base and little in the overall channeling theory that would allow them to expand what they can do in better times. Effectivly they know how to do some things but don't really know why things work the way they do so they can't experement. If that is the case its a lot easier to see knowledge being lost when you add in mad AS, a shifting world, bandits and general distruct if not hatred of AS by civiliains.The only problem I find in this very good explanation is that Traveling has quite a significant military use, and, once you have also small number of channeler and many muggle troops, it might be viewed even more important than direct combat skills, like the two asha'man were used by Perrin in his battle mainly for Traveling purposes.

However it's not impossible that during the War of Shadow the rush-trainings programs could create specialized roles - some would specialize on direct combat, some would specialize on logistics, some would have roles in the rear. During the Breaking, when the organization of AS collapsed and with it the training system too, the battle and logistic specialists would be more directly employed in dealing with mad male AS and have quite little chance to survive compared to those trained more for rear roles. And that might be why after the breaking only not very much military capable Aes Sedai survived, ones who were never meant for the first line of battle.

Enigma
11-21-2009, 08:46 PM
The only problem I find in this very good explanation is that Traveling has quite a significant military use, and, once you have also small number of channeler and many muggle troops, it might be viewed even more important than direct combat skills, like the two asha'man were used by Perrin in his battle mainly for Traveling purposes.

I can think of two ways traveling might have died out. First, it takes a certain strenght to open gateways of meaningful size. Even in the AoL not everyone could travel. In Rand's vision one of his ancestors plans to visit someplace with an AS who can travel, hence some were not strong enough.

Now what main advantage do men have over women in the OP? I would guess when more and more men went mad the stronger female AS were sent out in circles to deal with them, or at least try. I don't think its unreasonable for there to be a very high casualty rate among those forerunners to the Red Ajah. This leaves weaker AS around who may not be strong enough to travel, and if you are training on the run so to speak I doubt if one would waste time learing weaves that you don't have the strenght to operate.

The mind set of the AoL AS was a lot different from modern AS. They saw themselves as servants of all. When the breaking started I would guess stronger female AS would also feel bound to try to step up to the plate to deal with any local disasters that were occuring near them. Again a dangerous occupation.

Secondly traveling during the breaking could activly be dangerous. The world was shifting and instead of opening a gateway to the next city you might end up opening it onto an ocean or an active volcano or any number of other nasty geological feature that could kill everyone around you if it came through the gateway.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-22-2009, 02:09 PM
I just re-read the Sheriam bits. Nothing indicates she ONLY lost a finger. There is a possibility she did not get all of the ter'angreal...we know they ARE gone, but nothing seems to indicate another sister might not have snagged one, or more.

Lelaine comments upon discovery they are missing that they were customarily kept all together under guard, but the guards would think nothing of Sheriam retrieving one...why stop her from accessing them? Which begs the question who else would be ignored enough to access them.

The whole idea that the Oath Rod can be defeated seems to toss out lots of questions as to who in the Rebel Camp could still be BA. Sorry, but if I were Black and watched Sheriam and Moira run, you bet I would hold myself very very quietly and think furiously of another way out of that situation. It also begs the question why did Moira jump and run rather than creating a gateway and escaping? She watched Sheriam be shielded, so possibly grasping the source alone would have been enough to point fingers at her, but you expect the shield you can fight it. How strong was Moira, I cannot seem to find anything except she deferred to all the other Rebel Sitters, so she must have been very weak.



I think that scene is not as clear cut as imagined in regards to finishing off the BA in the rebel camp. And if even ONE BA could get through it, wouldn't it be likely that word spread to others to sit tight?

Neilbert
11-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Like what? Aes Sedai who actually are can't do any of the things we have discussed to defeat the Oath Rod. What options do they have left?