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greatwolf
11-15-2009, 10:58 AM
I would have posted this in another thread, but I want to avoid hijacking that thread at this time. I'm actually very curious about this.

Mesaana apparently lied to the other forsaken about the loot, sorry cache in the WT and other places. Why? Apart from her usual devious nature that is. The AS could have simply woken up to find that the store was empty.

Personally, I see no reason why Mesaana would not have removed a lot of items from the WT stores. Or at least what she wants and maybe even replace them with fakes. And I don't see it as a plot gap, since RJ brought up the issue of guarding the WT's stores in tFoH and then in the forsaken discussion in (?)LoC. And there have been numerous references to security of angreal and terangreal since then.

So what's going on? I could buy the forsaken wanting to give people a false sense of security by giving the appearance that these caches were still intact. But no more than that. Especially given the amount of effort that (for example) Sammael put into locating these things. And someone put a lot of effort to locating Bayle Domon in tGH as well.

And what is Mesaana plotting? Why does she want so desperately to deny access to TAR? Really curious. Any thoughts?

kivo
11-15-2009, 11:23 AM
And what is Mesaana plotting? Why does she want so desperately to deny access to TAR? Really curious. Any thoughts?

I had assumed it was because she wants to limit the ability of the enemy to enter TAR to as few people as possible. They already have to deal with Egwene, the Wise Ones and Rand there. Perrin too, not sure if they are aware of that though. The good guys are already outnumbering the bad guys in TAR. So stealing the rings at least limits that as much as possible.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2009, 11:37 AM
Lanfear has seen Perrin there at least once, when he barged in on her unannounced. It wasn't quite as good as when he did that with Moiraine, though.

JSUCamel
11-15-2009, 11:38 AM
I had assumed it was because she wants to limit the ability of the enemy to enter TAR to as few people as possible. They already have to deal with Egwene, the Wise Ones and Rand there. Perrin too, not sure if they are aware of that though. The good guys are already outnumbering the bad guys in TAR. So stealing the rings at least limits that as much as possible.

This is probably very true. It also lends credence to the theory (Crispin's, I believe?) that part of the Last Battle will take place in TAR. Perhaps Perrin will lead the wolves there. Hmm.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2009, 11:43 AM
This is probably very true. It also lends credence to the theory (Crispin's, I believe?) that part of the Last Battle will take place in TAR. Perhaps Perrin will lead the wolves there. Hmm.An idea supported by Hopper's belief that he will take part in it too. If Hopper is reborn now, he'll be far too young to do anything other than hide away.

greatwolf
11-15-2009, 12:39 PM
I had assumed it was because she wants to limit the ability of the enemy to enter TAR to as few people as possible. They already have to deal with Egwene, the Wise Ones and Rand there. Perrin too, not sure if they are aware of that though. The good guys are already outnumbering the bad guys in TAR. So stealing the rings at least limits that as much as possible.

Exactly the point. There are more where those came from. I mean the WT, other caches and from Elayne -there were others who had limited success at making terangreal iirc- who isn't making any right now though.

So taking those might only draw more attention to TAR now.

Secondly, Mesaana could kill most of those AS in TAR. Or is she afraid of the half trained girls?

Thirdly, they pose more of a danger to other chosen than to her since she knows of them.

But even that is the reason, it still doesn't tell us what special plans Mesaana has for TAR. I doubt she's the shadow's appointed steward for this realm since there are others that are stronger in this area - Lanfear and Moghedien.

Bonzi77
11-15-2009, 12:56 PM
Being stationed in the White Tower, Mesaana might well have known that Leanne did not have the ring on her when she was captured. So that reason wouldn't have flown with her.

greatwolf
11-15-2009, 01:04 PM
Being stationed in the White Tower, Mesaana might well have known that Leanne did not have the ring on her when she was captured. So that reason wouldn't have flown with her.

Hmmm, wrong thread perhaps?

crue
11-15-2009, 01:23 PM
I thought she wanted the rings back because those rings allowed the Rebel hall to meet with Egwene. Mesaana realized that the 'girl' that was raised Amyrlin was more of a threat than a puppet, and wanted her support removed.
She directed Sheriam to remove Egwene's support in the rebel camp. It stands to reason the TAR rings were removed for that same reason.

I can't believe it's because any Forsaken find any AS a threat in TAR.

greatwolf
11-15-2009, 01:34 PM
Quite plausible crue, in fact what I thought initially till I realized how easily Egwene got her hands on the angreal. And the oath Rod. It seems clear Mesaana was lying about the wards. So what's the game? To help preserve the loot for the FoL?

Yuri33
11-15-2009, 02:25 PM
LoC, Prologue:
Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. "The White Tower now has guards and wards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everything four times each day. The Great Hold in the Stone of Tear is also warded, with a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it. I donít think it can be untied except by whoever wove it, and until then it is a trap for any other woman who can channel."

It's not clear whether the wards are simply alarms or something more (like traps). Either way, given the state of things in the WT under Elaida when the Seanchan attacked, it's likely that guarding the cache slipped by the wayside like so many other things in TV. In fact, given that Egwene got her to the cache in the middle of the attack, it would probably not have been guarded at all, and no one would be paying attention to that particular alarm activating.

As to why Mesaana hadn't yet stolen anything, the only reason I could think of was that she never checked such things herself, she just relied on BA reports, and assumed the cache was guarded as heavily as it was in LoC.

Davian93
11-15-2009, 02:49 PM
It was guarded quite well...if the entire Tower wouldn't have been under attack. The question becomes, Why the hell didn't any other AS think to go for the angreal while the Tower was under attack? No common sense there. Saerin's group was on the ground floor so it would have been easy for her to send a couple runners to the basement to get some heavy artillery.

Ozymandias
11-15-2009, 03:02 PM
I'm guessing it just isn't worth Mesaana's while to take anything from the WT cache.

If she takes more than a few things, it'll become obvious. angreal and sa'angreal are rare enough that it'll be clear if they're missing. She can't really take all of them without a huge risk to being caught, and then she gives up her position in the Tower. I think we're underestimating the kinds of wards and guards there are on the storeroom. It may not be much, but if Mesaana thinks she can get to the stuff whenever she wants, she shouldn't be under any compulsion to go in before her time. Not when doing some might compromise her position.

Plus, when have the Chosen EVER tried to help one another? If she takes a half dozen sa'angreal, what good does it do her? She can only use the one, and she's not about to hand Graendal a powerful weapon. No, it seems to me it makes more sense for her to take one, maybe two, and leave the better part of it untouched for when she finally leaves the Tower for good.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 03:34 AM
The question becomes, Why the hell didn't any other AS think to go for the angreal while the Tower was under attack? No common sense there.Good answer, that. I don't think any more is needed.

greatwolf
11-16-2009, 10:18 AM
It was guarded quite well...if the entire Tower wouldn't have been under attack. The question becomes, Why the hell didn't any other AS think to go for the angreal while the Tower was under attack? No common sense there. Saerin's group was on the ground floor so it would have been easy for her to send a couple runners to the basement to get some heavy artillery.

I honestly don't know. At first I thought it was simply because Egwene could travel and the other WT AS couldn't. But if Saerin was on the ground floor, she should have tried at least. Even if she thought the SC would have gone there, it was still worth knowing where the enemy was located and what they wanted. But then one might as well ask why they didn't think to form circles. Circles would have held better against the damane for several reasons, including not having to worry about shields (and capture) and being able to weave faster than their opponents.

So it comes down to panic. The sort that grips men who have been well trained for years in peacetime when they land unexpectedly in the middle of a battle, I mean disaster. To be fair though, they seem to have done better than pearl harbor, thanks to Egwene. And in that wise, great writing by BS.

Yeah, WH was largely right. Except for the top down part. Tuon chose a bold and daring alternative -fitting the substance of Egwene's dreams- that rocked the WT.

It's not clear whether the wards are simply alarms or something more (like traps). Either way, given the state of things in the WT under Elaida when the Seanchan attacked, it's likely that guarding the cache slipped by the wayside like so many other things in TV

Thanks for the quote Yuri.

If the storerooms were guarded and the contents counted four times a day, how come they never missed the oath rod? I don't think there was any guards or wards for that matter. Mesaana was probably trying to keep the other forsaken from any power sources.

If she takes more than a few things, it'll become obvious. angreal and sa'angreal are rare enough that it'll be clear if they're missing

Well AS have been taking them for years despite their rarity, and no one really seems to know who has what.

Davian93
11-16-2009, 10:23 AM
They might want to get like an inventory system...AS seem to suck at doing so many things. Maybe a sign-out log? Its amazing the WT hasn't collapsed due to neglect in the last 3000 years.

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Hmmm, wrong thread perhaps?

Oops, yeah. Sorry

greatwolf
11-17-2009, 11:45 AM
They might want to get like an inventory system...AS seem to suck at doing so many things. Maybe a sign-out log? Its amazing the WT hasn't collapsed due to neglect in the last 3000 years.

They do. Yet RJ seems a bit repetitive about this pilfering of stuff from the WT cache. Perhaps we'll get to see a lot of angreal and terangreal in the hands of the shadow at TG. And maybe Egwene will plug the holes. At least we can hope the attack will wake them up.

Davian93
11-17-2009, 11:47 AM
They do. Yet RJ seems a bit repetitive about this pilfering of stuff from the WT cache. Perhaps we'll get to see a lot of angreal and terangreal in the hands of the shadow at TG. And maybe Egwene will plug the holes. At least we can hope the attack will wake them up.

I know they officially have one...it just seems like its not a very good one. You'd think they'd have better organizational abilities than they apparently do.

greatwolf
11-17-2009, 12:08 PM
I know they officially have one...it just seems like its not a very good one. You'd think they'd have better organizational abilities than they apparently do.

Yeah, they have a battle ajah that knows nothing of battle, browns that think any weave they don't already know is "impossible".

Mesaana has had an easy time so far, but hopefully she'll be a bit more curtailed now. Its a hope. Maybe Suian will discover the horn gone and they'll finally realize they need to ward the loot.

fdsaf3
11-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Yeah, they have a battle ajah that knows nothing of battle, browns that think any weave they don't already know is "impossible".

Mesaana has had an easy time so far, but hopefully she'll be a bit more curtailed now. Its a hope. Maybe Suian will discover the horn gone and they'll finally realize they need to ward the loot.

But that's the whole point! Robert Jordan made the Aes Sedai that way on purpose. The Age of Legends Aes Sedai aren't just arrogant, they're right in saying that the Aes Sedai of the current Age don't know nearly as much as they think they do. In a way, it's another take on the theme of stories and legends versus the actual people they are based on that is present in all the rest of the books.

As for why the Aes Sedai didn't grab any of the items in the cache, think about it: the Tower was fragmented, and it's quite clear that each individual was focused on self preservation and not protecting the Tower. That's why Egwene was the savior. Not only did she unite the future of the Tower together to save it, she was the only person thinking of uniting with others to achieve a common goal. And that's why she was raised to the Seat.

Masuri
11-19-2009, 06:48 AM
Yes, I think they were all too busy worrying about their own necks rather than saving the Tower.

But, speaking of loot, whatever happened to Kadere's wagons? They were full of ter'angreal from Rhuidean. Did they ever arrive in TV? I don't remember ever hearing about them again and can't find any more about them unless I'm overlooking it.

Davian93
11-19-2009, 07:38 AM
Yes, I think they were all too busy worrying about their own necks rather than saving the Tower.

But, speaking of loot, whatever happened to Kadere's wagons? They were full of ter'angreal from Rhuidean. Did they ever arrive in TV? I don't remember ever hearing about them again and can't find any more about them unless I'm overlooking it.

Don't quote me on this (Its not 100%) but I believe they never actually left Cairhien (per an RJ interview) and that Rand actually put them in a safe place. Remember that the Seals were part of that group and Rand hung onto them.

I don't have the quote on me though so I can't verify it without a lot of searching (something I don't have time for at work).

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2009, 08:58 AM
Perhaps they are all stored in Hinderstap?

Would be really something for Mat, to go to the middle of nowhere, and stumble straight into Rand's "ter'angreal gone wild" collection.

Terez
11-19-2009, 12:12 PM
TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 3 Question: After Moiraine fought Lanfear in Cairhien, what happened to the wagons full of ter'angreal and such that came out of the Aiel Waste? Are they just in some storeroom there? And what happened to Moiraine's horse Aldieb?

Robert Jordan Answers: The ter'angreal and so forth that came from Rhuidean are still in Cairhien for the moment, warded by Rand so they aren't accessible to anyone but him. Aldieb is in the stables at the Sun Palace.