Reintegration

[Yuri33]

When Semirhage is captured, she introduces a concept called reintegration, a process of reuniting any aspect of a person's past life with the current one (I'm purposely not using terms like voices, memories, etc. to avoid controversy surrounding LTT being real\construct\whatever).

KoD, A Plain Wooden Box:
Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,” she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be… abrupt.” Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

Yet we also directly hear some of Greandal's thoughts on related concepts much earlier:

tFoH, Prologue:
"If this Rand al'Thor really is Lews Therin Telamon reborn," Graendal went on, settling herself on the man's back where he crouched on all fours, "I am surprised you haven't tried to snuggle him into your bed, Lanfear. Or would it be so easy? I seem to remember Lews Therin led you by the nose, not the other way around. Squelched your little tantrums. Sent you running to fetch his wine, in a manner of speaking." She set her own wine on the tray, held out rigidly by the sightlessly kneeling woman. "You were so obsessed with him you'd have stretched out at his feet if he said 'rug'."
Lanfear's dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."
"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

It's not clear which specific aspect of Lanfear's assertion (Rand is LTT reborn) she's refuting. Some, such as Callandor, in his LTT is a construct theory, have used these contradictory statements to claim that Semirhage is lying. Others have claimed that Greandal's statements don't conflict with Semirhage's because she limits her doubts to the specificity of Rand's rebirth.

My question is this: in the AoL, did the concept of reintegration exist? Were there cases (whom Greandal would surely have dealt with) where some aspect of a person's former life is interfering or conflicting with his/her current life?

[Weird Harold]

My question is this: in the AoL, did the concept of reintegration exist? Were there cases (whom Greandal would surely have dealt with) where some aspect of a person's former life is interfering or conflicting with his/her current life?

Semirhage's qualification about "Real Voices" certainly suggests that at least the concept of real past-life memories being accessible was known in the AOL.

Greandal is apparently a sceptic about reincarnation of souls -- without being necessarily dismissive of the possibility of verifiable memories/voices from other sources, like "Old Blood" or possession.

I think those two points taken together are clear evidence that the AOL did deal with "reintegration" of "multiple personalties" but treated them -- as modern real-life psychiatry does -- as illnesses rather than as actual manefestations of past lives.

(which is why even Greandal wouldn't succeed; she wouldn't be treating the right problem.)

[Terez]

I concur with WH, on all points. A lot of people seem to see this issue very narrowly.

For example, the belief that because Semirhage uses the words "real voice", automatically means, assuming that she speaks truth, that the "Lews Therin is Real" theory is validated, simply because they use the term.

For another example, the belief that because Semirhage reveals, assuming that she's speaking truth, that "real voices" existed before the taint on saidin, that therefore, the taint did not have anything to do with the surfacing of Lews Therin's memories.

I think that Callandor's interpretation of these quotes was one of the few weak points of the theory - not because he had no valid point, but because he treated it too narrowly.

[Nazbaque]

Has anyone concidered that Graendal might be lying? She is a person who likes to mess with ppl and it is exactly what she is doing with Lanfear right there. It might still be true and that particular coincidence would make it so much more fun, but I still wouldn't take Graendals word for it. Only one thing in her speech is true for certain: Rand is something unheard of, who knows what he is.

[Terez]

Has anyone concidered that Graendal might be lying?
Of course, just as we've considered that Semirhage might be lying. But when you decide that they're lying, any helpful hints their words might have given you just go out the window. :)

[Yuri33]

For another example, the belief that because Semirhage reveals, assuming that she's speaking truth, that "real voices" existed before the taint on saidin, that therefore, the taint did not have anything to do with the surfacing of Lews Therin's memories.

Yes, this does speak against one proposition of the Barrier Degradation theory. Not that the barrier is degrading, but that the taint is what is causing it.

[Terez]

Yes, this does speak against one proposition of the Barrier Degradation theory.
There you go seeing things narrowly, just like I said. All it suggests is multiple causes. ;)

[Yuri33]

There you go seeing things narrowly, just like I said. All it suggests is multiple causes.

There you go, see me narrowly. I didn't rule out the taint. But Rand's case, one very special case, unlikely to ever be repeated, does not establish a link.

[Terez]

There you go, see me narrowly. I didn't rule out the taint. But Rand's case, one very special case, unlikely to ever be repeated, does not establish a link.
A link? :confused:

[Yuri33]

Yes, a link. Between the taint and degrading the barrier. Assuming Semirhage speaks the truth, there exists a plausible alternative mechanism (whatever that may be). And assuming it's happened many times in the AoL, that's a link, and trend. I don't know if we can assume that, hence the original question of this topic.

Greandal specifically points out the uniqueness of Rand's case. His case is not enough to establish a similar link, or trend, no matter how conveniently his episodes of Lews Therin correlate with massive usage of tainted saidin. The correlation indicates that the voice he hears is related to the taint. The fact that the barrier is also degrading does not prove that the taint is the cause, however, especially when an alternative mechanism exists.

[Terez]

Yeah, it's other evidence (detailed in Callandor's theory) that points to the taint being the cause - mainly a correlation between massive taint intake and memory surges. That being said, I'm not as firm a believer on Barrier Degradation as I am on the Construct theory.

It just irritates me that people (namely 4A) think that, now that Semirhage has spoken, it's proven that the taint was not the cause of Rand's barrier degradation. It doesn't prove any such thing - even assuming she's telling the truth, all it means is that the taint is not the only thing that can cause barrier degradation (I've suggested brain damage and hallucinogenic drugs before I think, as possible Age of Legends causes).

[Yuri33]

mainly a correlation between massive taint intake and memory surges.
...
all it means is that the taint is not the only thing that can cause barrier degradation

Except that if Rand is the only candidate case of taint=barrier degradation, then it's hard to call this a true cause, when it's evident that there are many more than a single instance of barrier degradation absent the taint (if Semirhage can be trusted).

We have multiple instances of the taint causing hallucengenic voices. These voices usually have nothing to do with past lives--they are the voices that Cadsuane refers to. Rand is experiencing hallucinogenic voices, but his case is unique because he's got barrier degradation as well. He's got memories seeping in, and he's got insane taint voices. What does he do? He constructs them into the Lews Therin persona in his head. None of this requires the taint itself causing the barrier degradation.

If Semirhage can be believed, we have multiple cases of barrier degradation, but no associated taint. What's the cause? It's impossible to say, though you've advance a couple of speculations. I have no doubt that brain damage and drugs can cause voices (they can in real life), but it doesn't make sense for them to degrade a barrier that allows memories to seep through, and I can't think of other provable mechanisms either.

So what's my alternative? What is causing the barrier degradation in Rand if it isn't the taint? I would submit that it's the Pattern itself that's the source of degradation. Lews Therin has been critical in getting Rand out of tight spots and through fateful events. And what force in the WoT universe is most suited to removing the barriers between lives but the Pattern itself. That's what makes Greandal's comment about the specificity of Rand's case so important (if she's not lying). If there's anybody the Pattern would specifically do this to, it would be Rand himself. The Pattern needs Rand to gain Lews Therin's knowledge so that Rand can do what the Pattern needs him to do.

So why not simply allow all of Lews Therin's memories into Rand all at once? Why the degradation? For one, it could simply be that the process takes time. Rand and the other ta'veren only recently started getting the TTT, and there's no reason that had to wait so long. The other could be that to flood Rand with too much would be to cause Lews Therin to take over. I know Callandor specifically concluded that this couldn't happen, because Lews Therin is a construct. I don't disagree about the construct, but that conclusion I believe is wrong. The evidence is in Moiraine's letter:

tFoH, Fading Words:
Since the first day I reached Rhuidean, I have known – it need not trouble you how, some secrets belong to others, and I will not betray them – that a day would come in Cairhien when news would arrive of Morgase. I did not know what that would be – if what we heard is true, the Light have mercy on her soul; she was willful and stubborn, with the temper of a lioness at times, but for all that a true, good and gracious queen – but each time that news led to the docks on the following day. There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear...
Rand's hands tightened on the pages. She had known. Known, and still she brought him here. Hurriedly he smoothed out the crumpled paper.
The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.

The ter'angreal in Rhuidean shows potential futures, not impossible ones, and I don't think Moiraine was referring to Lanfear Compelling Rand to be Lews Therin or anything like that. So Lews Therin somehow taking over Rand remains a distinct possibility.

The Pattern slowly provides Rand with memories of Lews Therin, to give him the tools he needs to get the job done. But the Pattern did not anticipate the taint voice, so instead of giving Rand useful recollections, Rand is combining them with his voice hallucinations to construct the Lews Therin persona. Rand still gets the info the Pattern intended, but in a much less healthy way.

Again, this alternate explanation depends heavily on proving a non-taint basis for barrier degradation, hence my original question on reintegration. The very word necessitates this possibility, if what Semirhage speaks is true.

I'm not trying to prove that the taint can't cause barrier degradation (like 4A). But I am trying to offer an alternative that seems more plausible.

[Uno]

Just a general point I've made a few times over the years: We don't actually know very much about what happens to people after death in RJ's universe. We know that there are souls, and that the general belief in the Third Age is that these souls are reborn, which is the desirable course of things ("salvation and rebirth"). Based on Graendal's off-hand comment to Lanfear, we know that some people in the Age of Legends thought that everyone was reborn, but that this was apparently not a firm fact.

Beyond this, we know that some people actually have been reborn (Rand, the Heroes of the Horn), but (unless my memory is mistaken) we don't know that this is the fate that awaits everyone. After all, both the champion of the Light (or "Dragon soul") and the Heroes are special cases, reborn for special purposes, to serve the grand schemes of the pattern.

I suppose it really depends on what model RJ used. If he went with various Asian spiritual beliefs, everyone (and every living thing) is reborn, but (and here John Snow will feel free to correct me) in Asian religions, reincarnation is not actually the desirable state of affairs, as the goal is to escape the endless cycle of death and rebirth. There are other religions that have envisioned a kind of select reincarnation.

In some Greek myths, a few individuals may escape Hades to be reborn, while in Norse mythology, most people go to various places in the afterlife (Hel, Valhall, Gimle, sacred sites on earth, and so on), but, at least in some myths, select persons are reborn. A pair of famous lovers first appear as Helge Hjovardsson (naturally a great hero) and Svåva Øylimesdotter (a female warrior), died and were reunited as Helge Hundingsbane and Sigrun Hognesdotter, and were finally reborn (and again reunited) as Helge Haddingjaskate and Kåra Halvdansdotter. Now that seems vaguely familiar from WOT. Interestingly, Helge Hundingsbane initially went to Valhall, then returned to visit Sigrun on earth, and was finally reincarnated, apparently after his lover’s death.

My point is that while some religions envision the same fate for all the dead (or often two, one for the good and one for the wicked), it is conceivable that there may be multiple destinies in the afterlife, and rebirth may be the fate in store only for some. Food for thought, anyway.

[Nazbaque]

Two things:

1) Why do ppl assume there is a sentient power guiding events?

2) Why do ppl assume it's the Pattern? The Pattern doesn't weave itself, the Wheel does. If there is sentient behavior there it's the Wheel not the Pattern.

[Yuri33]

Thus Spake the Creator:
Q: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man. Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things alltogether?
A: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.
Q: So threads and souls are the same thing
Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment.
The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

There's no context for this answer that involves the Heroes, so I think it's safe to say that reincarnation of the soul can apply to anyone.

Naz:

1) I wasn't saying that the Pattern was sentient. I was saying that the Pattern was set, that it was destined for Rand to eventually gain Lews Therin's memories\knowledge, via the Pattern's degradation of the barrier. After all, we've seen numerous methods for the Pattern to be "read" to figure out the future, so it's reasonable to see the Pattern as being a kind of "force," pushing events in certain directions. If it seemed like I was characterizing the Pattern as taking an active role, that's not what I intended.

2) Yes, it's the Wheel that spins out the corrective, reacting to unintended warps in the Pattern. I was trying to characterize what may have happened to Rand as already woven, but interfered with by the DO's taint.

[Nazbaque]

Fair enough

[Terez]

RJ did say (somewhere, don't remember where) that non-Heroes have an afterlife where they await rebirth - it's just not in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Uno]

There's no context for this answer that involves the Heroes, so I think it's safe to say that reincarnation of the soul can apply to anyone.

I'll refrain this once from restating my position on the use of interviews in discussions. Can apply to anyone? Yes, possibly. Must apply to everyone? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you think the Creator's like, I suppose. Is he a bureaucrat with a one-track scheme for the afterlife for everyone, or is he more creative and likes diversity?

Don't see why being reborn is such a great thing, to tell you the truth. Sure, your soul, whatever that is, gets another chance, but since your personality, memories, and everything else about you dies (LTT and Rand are pretty different people, I'd say), what the hell is the point of that? Beats me. I'm just glad I'm not religious...it's way too complicated.

[Marie Curie 7]

I'll refrain this once from restating my position on the use of interviews in discussions. Can apply to anyone? Yes, possibly. Must apply to everyone? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you think the Creator's like, I suppose. Is he a bureaucrat with a one-track scheme for the afterlife for everyone, or is he more creative and likes diversity?

I think it's pretty clear that "ordinary" souls are reincarnated. From the BWB:

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

No one knows the length of time it takes for a full turning of the Wheel, nor is there a set time for each Age. There is only the certainty that all will come around again, though surely long past the span encompassed by human memory, or even legend. Yet that knowledge provides the basis for the philosophy and history of the known world. No ending, even death, is necessarily final within the turning of the Wheel. Reincarnation is a part of the way of the world. Prophecies are believed and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as of what will be. The only questions are when and in what manner the prophecies will unfold.


Don't see why being reborn is such a great thing, to tell you the truth. Sure, your soul, whatever that is, gets another chance, but since your personality, memories, and everything else about you dies (LTT and Rand are pretty different people, I'd say), what the hell is the point of that? Beats me. I'm just glad I'm not religious...it's way too complicated.

Nobody said it was necessarily a great thing, it's just the way the WoT universe works. RJ even comments about this (and about the reincarnation of souls) on his blog:

RJ's blog, October 4, 2005
Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

[Terez]

The only good reason I can think of to refrain from using RJ interviews is that sometimes they're indirect, but RJ's blog and the Questions of the Week, and anything you have audio/video backup for is golden, IMO. There's video backup for a lot of the DragonCon/book tour stuff on YouTube. I found a bunch of videos there, and none of them were anything I hadn't read already somewhere on the internet. :)

[Uno]

Oh, ganging up on kindly old Uno, are we? Technically, the BWB is constructed as a compliation of knowledge and belief in the Third Age, so it reflects what the people of that epoch think is the case, not necessarily how things really are. Now I'm willing to admit that that's a pretty damn pedantic point, but, then, I'm a pretty argumentative person.

OK, so I guess I can't really argue that RJ is wrong, but still, throwing blog quotes at a chap. Bad form, that.

As to the comment that I think reincarnation is so much rubbish, that's was mere personal afterthought, not an argument as such.

[Terez]

Oh, ganging up on kindly old Uno, are we?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i111/Terez27/donotwakepedanticbear.jpg

[Terez]

This is the quote I was thinking about, found both in Wotmania's collection and at Thus Spake:

Q:Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in the Wheel of Time? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabbaticals?

A:In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide NOT to be a hero linked to the Wheel.

Also, back to Uno's pedantic point:

Technically, the BWB is constructed as a compliation of knowledge and belief in the Third Age, so it reflects what the people of that epoch think is the case, not necessarily how things really are.
I find that the BWB uses very accurate language when it comes to drawing a distinction between what is known and what is educated guess, or speculation. Can you find an instance in the BWB that states an outright fallacy as if it were truth?

[Uno]

That's a matter of little consequence. A universally accepted fact can still be wrong. Prior to the Copernican revolution, the Ptolemaic universe was a scientific fact, agreed upon by virtually all European scholars, but it retrospect it was clearly an invalid model for how the cosmos actually works.

[Terez]

Sure, but that's a great deal more applicable to the real world than it is to a world where the Creator actually exists. :)

[Yuri33]

Another reason the Pattern itself could be the source of the barrier degradation:

CoT, Talk of Debts:
She thought she sounded very convincing, very cool and detached, but Aviendha reached out to squeeze her hand, for an Aiel as much as a comforting hug with so many people to see, and Birgitte’s sympathy flooded through the bond. It was more than commiseration; it was the shared feeling of a woman who had already suffered the loss she herself feared and more. Gaidal Cain was lost to Birgitte as surely as if he were dead, and on top of that, her memories of her past lives were fading. She remembered almost nothing clearly before the founding of the White Tower, and not all of that. Some nights, the fear that Gaidal would fade from her memory, too, that she would lose any remembrance of actually hav*ing known and loved him, left her unable to sleep until she drank as much brandy as she could hold. That was a poor solution, and Elayne wished she could offer a better, yet she knew her own mem*ories of Rand would not die until she did, and she could not imag*ine the horror of knowing those memories might leave her. Still, she hoped someone Healed Birgitte’s morning-after head soon, before her own split open like an over-ripe melon. Her ability with Healing fell short of the task, and Aviendha’s was no stronger.

Birgitte was ripped out of TAR in a manner that didn't allow for the barrier to be put into place. At first, Birgitte had all the memories of her past lives, but now they are slowly fading. The Pattern is slowly restoring the barrier, so it makes sense if the Pattern can remove it. Not all at once, but slowly, just like Rand's barrier is slowly degenerating.

[Terez]

Yuri, the Pattern is essentially behind everything. Saying "The Pattern did it" is a cop-out, because the Pattern always does it. We've had long discussions about the mechanics of Birgitte's memory loss as compared to Rand's memory gain. "The Pattern did it" is not the only explanation available to us...

[4Alethinos]

Well, if the occasion warrants it, then yes. :D

Actually, Terez ahs a good point. I do not recall an debate in which the BWB was said to be absolutely wrong. I may be incorrect, but we will see.

BTW, UNO, just how do you demonstrate that the earth orbits the sun? All of the tests of which I am aware have failed to demonstrate that. I cite Airy's failure, the failure of Fresnell drag and the failure of the Michaelson-Morley experiments to show the earth is orbiting the sun. Just a thought for your extensive data banks. :)

"If I make a mistake, I can trust Terez to correct me. That is perfectly OK." :cool:

[Yuri33]

Yuri, the Pattern is essentially behind everything. Saying "The Pattern did it" is a cop-out, because the Pattern always does it. We've had long discussions about the mechanics of Birgitte's memory loss as compared to Rand's memory gain. "The Pattern did it" is not the only explanation available to us...

If you could kindly point me to those discussions, I won't belabor the point then.