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View Full Version : Are the Towers of Midnight unique to Seanchan


ZaderGru
11-15-2009, 05:33 PM
As the Towers of Midnight are from the time of Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of Hawkwing, are the Towers of Midnight unique to Seanchan or could they have come from Randland.

Terez
11-15-2009, 05:34 PM
They seem to be unique to Seanchan - there's no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Kurtz
11-15-2009, 05:47 PM
Where are they mentioned?

Terez
11-15-2009, 06:02 PM
Where are they mentioned?
A few places:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 40 – Damane

Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor - he was not Emperor then, of course - since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that - when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured."

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Leashing the Power

The first a’dam was made by an Aes Sedai, Deain, who brought it to Luthair Paendrag in an attempt to curry favor with him. She knew he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, and for the most part the Aes Sedai hated him. Deain believed that Luthair would eventually win and felt that she would be richly rewarded for bringing him a gift that could hand him the Power of the Aes Sedai, willing or not. Several years after that, the first sul’dam were found—women who could learn to channel and had the spark, but could not actually channel without training. These women were considered ideal controllers of the damane, the Leashed Ones. For her trouble Deain was rewarded with imprisonment by her own device. She was, after all, Aes Sedai and thus not to be trusted. It is said her screams “shook the Towers of Midnight.”

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Imperial Security

Both the Tower of Ravens and the Court of the Nine Moons are located in Seandar, the Imperial capital, located in the northeast of the Seanchan continent. Seandar is the largest city in the Empire. The other major cities in descending order of size are: Kirendad, Noren Mˇ˝Shar, Asinbayar, Qirat, Imfaral (location of the Towers of Midnight), Sohima, Tˇ˝zura, Anangore, Shon Kifar, and Rampore.

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9912)

Q: We know the Tower of Ravens located in the Seanchan capital city is used as an imperial prison especially for members of the Blood, but there is also a reference to the first marath'damane shaking the Towers of Midnight. Are the Towers of Midnight also a prison? Can you tell us more about them?


RJ: There are thirteen Towers of Midnight. The Towers of Midnight are a fortress complex, and were - at the time this happened, Seandar wasn't the capital and the Towers of Midnight were the center of military might, or the forces that were beginning the consolidation before the conquest of Seanchan.

Kurtz
11-15-2009, 06:13 PM
Thank you.

Wonder how they can be made relevant. The possibility that both the Seanchan prophecies and Randland prophecies are true and that Rand will kneel to the Seanchan but thereafter bind them to him.

Spasmodean
11-15-2009, 06:32 PM
I wonder though if the book name is to be taken literally.

After all, we still have 2 other Towers to worry about in the last 2 installments, Tower of Genjhei and the Black (as Midnight?) Tower.

Kurtz
11-15-2009, 06:34 PM
I wonder though if the book name is to be taken literally.

After all, we still have 2 other Towers to worry about in the last 2 installments, Tower of Genjhei and the Black (as Midnight?) Tower.

Could very well be true, nice thinking.

Terez
11-15-2009, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I get the feeling that the title is, like most titles, pretty allegorical. Doesn't mean that the Seanchan Towers of Midnight won't play some sort of role, but RJ has also said that there won't be any major ventures to the Seanchan continent. Most likely it will have to do with the truce, which is bound to come as a result of a confrontation, as Tuon believes that Rand has to kneel to her, and he's likely going to resist.

isamu237
11-15-2009, 07:33 PM
My first thought for the Tower of Midnight was that the primary storyline of the next book would be the resolution of the Black Tower, Taim, Logain, etc. Just as on of, if not the, major story arch in TGS involved the resolution of the White Tower (both the split and the BA).
However I'd completely forgotten about the obscure, short references to the Seanchan Towers of Midnight. As far as RJ's assertion that there would be no major foray into the Seanchan continent, remember the Seanchan now know, or will shortly know, how to Travel. Thus, the literal Towers of Midnight are going to figure in somehow, whatever is going to be done could be done rather quickly.
Perhaps Mat will rejoin Tuon to quickly secure the court or gather up the remaining loyal armies and return to Randland to aid in Tarmon Gaidon?
I had another thought, but the kids are blaring Dora in the next room and that drives all worthwhile thought quickly from my brain...

Matoyak
11-15-2009, 08:21 PM
Yeah, I get the feeling that the title is, like most titles, pretty allegorical. Doesn't mean that the Seanchan Towers of Midnight won't play some sort of role, but RJ has also said that there won't be any major ventures to the Seanchan continent. Most likely it will have to do with the truce, which is bound to come as a result of a confrontation, as Tuon believes that Rand has to kneel to her, and he's likely going to resist.Slightly off topic, but apparently Sanderson has confirmed that both the Seanchan Prophecies and the Randland Prophecies are not more corrupted than the other. That is to say, if I understand what I read correctly, both prophecies from both continents are equally corrupted. Just an interesting tidbit...

Terez
11-15-2009, 08:23 PM
That is interesting. I'd heard that he had confirmed corruption for one, but not both. I can't wait to get to work on updating the interview database...where did you read that?

Matoyak
11-15-2009, 08:28 PM
That is interesting. I'd heard that he had confirmed corruption for one, but not both. I can't wait to get to work on updating the interview database...where did you read that?I can't remember...I think it might have been a post on Dragonmount or here on TL...I don't normally read Dragonmount, but I decided to go take a look a couple days ago...but I am not sure where I read it...sorry :(
That's why I said "apparently" a lot, and added a good amount of qualifiers to my post.

Nelal Hurcran
11-15-2009, 08:33 PM
Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishy)? Which is more correct?

Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

Follow-up Question: In both?

Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

I think this is what you're referring to. Tam asked it during the the SLC signing (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2566).

Yuri33
11-15-2009, 08:36 PM
TGS, A Halo of Blackness:
The Last Battle would be between the Empire and the forces of the Dark One. Everybody knew that. The prophecies clearly showed that the Empress would defeat those who served the Shadow, and then she would send the Dragon Reborn in to duel with Lighteater.

If this comes from the Seanchan prophecies, then we know it has been corrupted. So far, there's nothing as obviously false in any of the Randland prophecies. I'm a bit skeptical about both being corrupted, or at least, being equally corrupted. The Seanchan are very good propagandists--it's the reason they so universally fear/hate channelers.

Terez
11-15-2009, 08:52 PM
I got the impression that this was more of a lore thing, based on people's interpretations of prophecies like the Crystal Throne one. Think, like the Left Behind™ series....

Davian93
11-15-2009, 09:26 PM
I got the impression that this was more of a lore thing, based on people's interpretations of prophecies like the Crystal Throne one. Think, like the Left Behind™ series....

Let's not go there. Those two guys made some interesting "leaps" when interpreting the Bible. Some controversal ones to say the least.

I wouldn't take a DM post as gospel without a real quote to back it up.

isamu237
11-15-2009, 10:04 PM
If this comes from the Seanchan prophecies, then we know it has been corrupted. So far, there's nothing as obviously false in any of the Randland prophecies. I'm a bit skeptical about both being corrupted, or at least, being equally corrupted. The Seanchan are very good propagandists--it's the reason they so universally fear/hate channelers.

This does not illuminate, one way or another, the veracity of the Seanchan prophecies as it represents someones flawed interpretation of that prophecy. Much like Elaida's fervent belief that she would destroy the Black Tower and reunite the White based on her own Foretelling; which didn't actually say who would reunite the White Tower or how the Black would be rent in blood and fire.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 01:31 AM
The Seanchan don't really allow for much debate on the interpretation of their prophecies. What Tuon thinks is essentially the same as what every other Seanchan believes. It's not "someone's" flawed interpretation, it would have to be an entire nation's flawed interpretation.

It remains to be seen if this is an effect of the clarity of Foretellings by Seanchan damane, or simply the effectiveness of their propaganda. They seem to be pretty certain on the Empress part, and I doubt that sureness is simply creative interpretation. Either there was a Foretelling clearly implicating the glory of the Empire in the Last Battle, or more likely, there was a manufactured prophecy to that effect spread around as gospel.

The BS quote given earlier admits to "tampering." In addition, there was the rather muddled answer of: "It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent."

Terrible grammar aside (likely from the transcriber), it seems to indicate that BS was claiming the Essanik cycle is a result of Seanchan damane Foretellings/fortune-tellings only. But this is not the case. The Karaethon Cycle--circa Artur Hawking's time--was taken to Seanchan, and must form the basis for the Essanik cycle. Both books of prophecy have since evolved, and by all indications, the Seanchan one in a more self-glorifying way.

FelixPax
11-16-2009, 02:25 AM
Yeah, I get the feeling that the title is, like most titles, pretty allegorical. Doesn't mean that the Seanchan Towers of Midnight won't play some sort of role, but RJ has also said that there won't be any major ventures to the Seanchan continent. Most likely it will have to do with the truce, which is bound to come as a result of a confrontation, as Tuon believes that Rand has to kneel to her, and he's likely going to resist.

Referring to the future WoT book, the 'Towers of Midnight' could also tied into that those other 'Towers of Malkeri' and Lan's story. It might even hint at that 'nameless old Stone Tower, and Fortress' Perrin & Egwene came across in the former Aridhol nation, just before meeting Elyas for the first time. Egwene had nightmares of that particular Stone Tower (tEoW, Chapter "Wolfbrother"), seemingly parallel her future worries about the Black Tower, next to Caemlyn.

Hmm...any Towers in Rhuidean of note?

Cairhien has a few very tall Towers, but I'm not sure where the Seanchan Towers of Midnight fits in to the next part of story, other than its name. Since the Seanchan Towers of Midnight is a set of prisons for political prisoners, who fits that status in Randland now? Suroth? Suroth's unnamed associates? Liandrin?


The book title's name suggests more darkness, before the dawning ending of AMOL at least. Rand's death?

“Sometimes old enemies fight so long that they become allies and never realize it. They think they strike at you, but they have become so closely linked it is as if you guided the blow yourself.”

“Soon comes the day all shall be free.
Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die.
Surely you, but never I.”

Twilight was a troubled time for Liandrin of late, that and dawn. At dawn the day was born, just as twilight gave birth to night, but at dawn, night died, and at twilight, day. The Dark One’s power was rooted in death; he gained power from death, and at those times she thought she could feel his power stirring.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 03:42 AM
After all, we still have 2 other Towers to worry about in the last 2 installments, Tower of Genjhei and the Black (as Midnight?) Tower.There is also Moridin's black tower.
And I'm sure that Bela is building a tower somewhere, too.

Terez
11-16-2009, 03:45 AM
Don't forget the White Tower, which BS has confirmed is still not out of the plot picture (Mesaana, and Egwene's unfulfilled dreams).

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 03:47 AM
Don't forget the White Tower, which BS has confirmed is still not out of the plot picture (Mesaana, and Egwene's unfulfilled dreams).And shadowy blood suicide assassin type people are still running around there, as well.

Terez
11-16-2009, 03:48 AM
And shadowy blood suicide assassin type people are still running around there, as well.
Maybe one of the Bloodknives will be Egwene's Seanchan woman with a sword. Would explain the wavering face...

isamu237
11-16-2009, 03:50 AM
There is also Moridin's black tower.
And I'm sure that Bela is building a tower somewhere, too.

No doubt where she's stashed Asmodean's body.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 03:52 AM
Maybe one of the Bloodknives will be Egwene's Seanchan woman with a sword. Would explain the wavering face...Ooo...good idea...I like it. :D

Terez
11-16-2009, 03:53 AM
Ooo...good idea...I like it. :D
I will give you half credit, since you made me think of it via proximity. ;) Anyway, it was brought to our attention that at least one of them was a woman, and the one Bryne killed was a man.

FelixPax
11-16-2009, 04:15 AM
Towers, mentioned so far include:

- Seanchan's Towers of Midnight, a complex of political prisons
- Black Tower, in Caemlyn for Taim's Asha'man
- White Tower, in Tar Valon
- Cairhien topless Towers
- nameless Stone Tower, in former Aridhol (tEoW, Chapter "Wolfbrother")
- Tower of Gheneji, pathway to the Aelfinn & Eelfinn
- Moridin's little Black Tower, in the very far east, north a bit of Shara (tGS book Prologue)
- The Stone, in Tear is the tallest Tower for miles and miles around
- Seven Towers of Malkari
- Illian's own series of tall Bell Towers, which Rand once hide in during the attack on Sammael
- Arafel's Shol Arbela, the 'City of Ten Thousand Bells' surely has famous Towers?
- Possibly a tall Tower in Rhuidean, or maybe not?

Isn't Bela's stable a part of the 'White Tower' now? ;)

Maybe one of the Bloodknives will be Egwene's Seanchan woman with a sword. Would explain the wavering face...

Bah! It was a "solid face" Egwene Dreamed of a Seanchan woman with a sword over her shoulder on that mountain....

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 03:16 PM
Terrible grammar aside (likely from the transcriber), it seems to indicate that BS was claiming the Essanik cycle is a result of Seanchan damane Foretellings/fortune-tellings only. But this is not the case. The Karaethon Cycle--circa Artur Hawking's time--was taken to Seanchan, and must form the basis for the Essanik cycle. Both books of prophecy have since evolved, and by all indications, the Seanchan one in a more self-glorifying way.
I don't think that's the case. I think we're probably looking at two different volumes of prophecy here - the Karatheon, which was brought by Hawkwing, and the Essanik, which was composed entirely in Seanchan. They might be combined into one volume, like the Old and New Testaments, but my guess is that they're otherwise distinct.