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Kalli
11-15-2009, 09:26 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew of any connection between The Horn of Valere and Moridin. The horn's inscription says "Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin." Translated to "The grave is no bar to my call."

Maybe this came up when Moridin was first introduced in the books but really... can it be such a coincidence? I even quoted the text straight from tEotW and Moridin is capitalized and considering the translation that makes it odd.

RJ could name the remade Ishy anything he wanted and he chose Moridin a word that has already appeared in the series and in a grammatically odd way. It makes we wonder if there is a established connection or they may be a eventual connection. Especially considering that the Dragon Soul and Ishy's soul are repeating polar opposites throughout the turning of the wheel.

Also read that the prophecies are corrupted and that currently in RL the horn is not included in any prophecy yet the AoL Aes Sedai thought it an imperative thing for the dragon to have...what gives with that?

Davian93
11-15-2009, 09:28 PM
The old tongue can be translated many ways, thus

Moridin=Death
Moridin=the Grave

Etc etc.

JSUCamel
11-15-2009, 09:44 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew of any connection between The Horn of Valere and Moridin. The horn's inscription says "Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin." Translated to "The grave is no bar to my call."

Maybe this came up when Moridin was first introduced in the books but really... can it be such a coincidence? I even quoted the text straight from tEotW and Moridin is capitalized and considering the translation that makes it odd.

RJ could name the remade Ishy anything he wanted and he chose Moridin a word that has already appeared in the series and in a grammatically odd way. It makes we wonder if there is a established connection or they may be a eventual connection. Especially considering that the Dragon Soul and Ishy's soul are repeating polar opposites throughout the turning of the wheel.

As Dav said, the word "moridin" in the Old Tongue translates to "Death" or "The Grave". The translation on the Horn translates to "The grave is no bar to my call". So to answer your question, it's somewhat coincidental. I'm sure RJ was well aware that he was naming Ishamael "Death" when he gave him the name Moridin. However, there appears to be no relation between Moridin himself and the Horn of Valere.

To put it a slightly different way, this is like saying that French Fries must originate from France or that Sun Microsystems is related to the star in the center of our solar system by the same name. Sure, they may be inspired, and they share words (or root words), but they're not necessarily related. It's possible, but most likely coincidence.

Also read that the prophecies are corrupted and that currently in RL the horn is not included in any prophecy yet the AoL Aes Sedai thought it an imperative thing for the dragon to have...what gives with that?

Ages come and go, history fades to legend, legend to myth, myth to oblivion, yadda yadda. It's been an untold number of years since the last Age known as the Third Age. Some things are simply forgotten.

It's also possible that the AoL Aes Sedai had some sort of Foretelling. However, it's unlikely that Ishamael had any influence over the Horn of Valere. Possible, but unlikely.

Nice connections, though.

Davian93
11-15-2009, 09:45 PM
Oh...and welcome to Theoryland!

Ozymandias
11-15-2009, 09:47 PM
Ages come and go, history fades to legend, legend to myth, myth to oblivion, yadda yadda. It's been an untold number of years since the last Age known as the Third Age. Some things are simply forgotten.


His point is that if the AoL Aes Sedai didn't know of its use, they wouldn't have included it as part of the "essential tools" bundle they left at the Eye.

And if they did, then they almost certainly would have used it in the War of Power.

Davian93
11-15-2009, 10:13 PM
His point is that if the AoL Aes Sedai didn't know of its use, they wouldn't have included it as part of the "essential tools" bundle they left at the Eye.

And if they did, then they almost certainly would have used it in the War of Power.

Perhaps it wasn't found till after the Sealing? Remember, its inclusion in the Eye is several years AFTER the Sealing occurred. They were well into the Breaking at that point.

thisiscooling
11-15-2009, 10:20 PM
maybe, rand dies, and mat blows the horn and he comes back!

ShadowbaneX
11-15-2009, 10:25 PM
maybe, rand dies, and mat blows the horn and he comes back!
been suggested, along with Rand dying, ending up in TAR as a Hero of the Horn and then being ripped out by the same weave Moggy used to rip Birgitte out of TAR.

Zaela Sedai
11-15-2009, 10:50 PM
I always took it as the grave and the Lord of the Grave is no bar to my call. Meaning exactly that, the DO has no hold on the souls of the Heroes, and nor does death.

Weird Harold
11-16-2009, 12:03 AM
His point is that if the AoL Aes Sedai didn't know of its use, they wouldn't have included it as part of the "essential tools" bundle they left at the Eye.

And if they did, then they almost certainly would have used it in the War of Power.
Check Terez's signature link for the exact quote from RJ about how the HoV was known in the AOL, but believed to be a myth or superstition. Davian is likely correct that it wasn't actually discovered until during the Breaking.

It was included in the EoTW stash because:

eWOT/characters\hist\deindre.html
Deindre
An Aes Sedai during the Breaking. She had the Foretelling.
...
Chronology
Deindre has a Foretelling that is the basis for the making of the Eye of the World.
Solinda, Oselle and Deindre meet with Someshta in the Hall of the Servants to give him a final task. They have Callandor and the Dragon Banner and are preparing to make the Eye of the World. (TSR,Ch26)


Athough it isn't explicitly stated as such, it also likely those three Aes Sedai were responsible for the construction of the Stone of Tear and the KC Prophecies realting to the Stone, Callandor, and the Eye of The World.

Kalli
11-16-2009, 05:59 AM
Coincident...:rolleyes: ... and translations, I get that. Still, that capitalization of a noun in a sentence bugs me. This is one of those things that I'm red flagging in my mind.

Jokeslayer
11-16-2009, 06:19 AM
I always took it as the grave and the Lord of the Grave is no bar to my call. Meaning exactly that, the DO has no hold on the souls of the Heroes, and nor does death.

I agree. I think it's most likely that if Moridin and the Moridin on the HoV have a link, it's that they both derive from a name for the DO.

1Powerslave
11-16-2009, 06:51 AM
I was wondering if anyone knew of any connection between The Horn of Valere and Moridin. The horn's inscription says "Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin." Translated to "The grave is no bar to my call."

Maybe this came up when Moridin was first introduced in the books but really... can it be such a coincidence? I even quoted the text straight from tEotW and Moridin is capitalized and considering the translation that makes it odd.

I believe it is commented on by Osan'gar, when we have his POV right after he has been transmigrated into a new body, that the Dark One's has a twisted sense of humour. Osan'gar is referring to his and Bathamel's new names, Osan'gar and Aran'gar; right hand dagger, left hand dagger (or something similar). I think it is the Dark One's humour that governed the pick of Moridin as Ishamael's new name.
"The grave is no bar to my call."
Maybe the humour in it would be that Moridin is an example of that the grave is no bar to the Dark One's call either. Or humourous in that Rand always goes on about how he have killed Ishamael, so the Dark One gave his ressurected servant the name "Dead" inspired by the Dragon always naming him thus.

I don't know about the motivation for a capital M on Moridin in the inscription on the Horn, but maybe it is just happenstance.

JSUCamel
11-16-2009, 06:59 AM
Coincident...:rolleyes: ... and translations, I get that. Still, that capitalization of a noun in a sentence bugs me. This is one of those things that I'm red flagging in my mind.

The only reason for capitalization on the HoV is because in mythology and folklore, Death is generally a "person". You know, the guy in the black robe with the scythe.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2009, 07:09 AM
Of course, the Horn is not just a mythical thing, but a highly practical tool for necromancy. So it is not at all certain that whoever made it was thinking of mythology.
On the other hand, it does not seem much of a stretch that he would have sene the Lord of the Grave as Death, and then the inscription would simply say that not even the DO can stop the Heroes from appearing. Which would mean that they can arrive straight in the middle of the Pit of Doom, where they could actually do some good.

Another Horn related issue: is Illian just a red herring, or would it actually be relevant after all?

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 03:18 PM
The only reason for capitalization on the HoV is because in mythology and folklore, Death is generally a "person". You know, the guy in the black robe with the scythe.
Wonder if Moridin is going to pick up a scythe sometime soon? Legend fades to myth, after all... ;)

fdsaf3
11-16-2009, 11:00 PM
I've always thought that the Horn's engraving was one of RJ's better puns. Well, maybe pun is the wrong word. What I mean is that I've always thought that "the grave is no bar to my call" was a reference to Mat's death, or lack thereof. Pretty sneaky, RJ.

Neilbert
11-16-2009, 11:28 PM
Wonder if Moridin is going to pick up a scythe sometime soon? Legend fades to myth, after all... ;)

He had a staff. It's not super far off.

Terez
11-16-2009, 11:29 PM
It's the Fades that dress like Grim tho.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 11:49 PM
It's the Fades that dress like Grim tho.
We've never seen Moridin and Shaidar Haran together. Draw your own conclusions.

Terez
11-16-2009, 11:51 PM
We've never seen Moridin and Shaidar Haran together. Draw your own conclusions.
We sort of have, when Shaidar Haran handed Moghedien over to Moridin.

Belazamon
11-16-2009, 11:54 PM
We sort of have, when Shaidar Haran handed Moghedien over to Moridin.
Off-screen outfit change.

Terez
11-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Off-screen outfit change.
Nah, they were there together. I just checked to make sure.

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 12:04 AM
Nah, they were there together. I just checked to make sure.
No they weren't...
Abruptly the hand in her hair rushed her forward, and she screamed in spite of herself. The Myrddraal meant to run her into the wall. Her hands went up for protection, and Shaidar Haran released her. She staggered at least ten steps - but her cell was not ten paces corner to corner. Wood smoke; she smelled a faint touch of wood smoke. She kept her eyelids firmly closed, though. She meant to continue with no more than bruises, and as few bruises as possible, for as long as she could manage.

"You can look now," a deep voice said.

She did, cautiously. The speaker was a tall, broad-shouldered young man in black boots and breeches and a flowing white shirt unlaced at the top, who watched her with startlingly blue eyes from a deep, cushioned armchair in front of a marble fireplace where flames danced along long logs. She stood in a wood-paneled room that might have belonged to a wealthy merchant or noble of moderate rank in this time, the furniture lightly carved and touched with gilt, the rugs woven in red-and-gold arabesques. She did not doubt it was somewhere close by Shayol Ghul, though; it did not have the feel of Tel'aran'rhiod, the only other possibility. Swiveling her head hastily, she drew a deep breath. The Myrddraal was nowhere to be seen. Tight bands of cuande seemed to vanish from around her chest.
The last time we know for a fact that SH was there was before he threw Moggy through the wall.

Anyway, this is far too much detailed examination of a joke. :rolleyes:

Terez
11-17-2009, 12:09 AM
yup, serious business.

Matoyak
11-17-2009, 05:12 AM
Nah, they were there together. I just checked to make sure.He can clone himself.

yup, serious business.oops, I mean...How dare you joke around like that Bela. For shame. :rolleyes::p

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-17-2009, 01:04 PM
Nah, they were there together. I just checked to make sure.

I suggested this a long, long time ago when Moridin's identity was still unknown. The slamming of Moggy through to another...dimension?...could have been Shadar Haran's push from reality, where he could exist in the form of a Myrdraal, to TAR, or wherever the heck Moridin exists.

At the time it made sense, now, not so much. We think Shadar Haran is the DO in the creepy, white flesh.

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 01:09 PM
Oh yeah, there's no doubt that they're separate "people" - but it's still kind of fun that they've never been seen together. I was just running with the idea of them merging together over the Ages through the power of mythology. :D

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2009, 05:13 AM
Oh yeah, there's no doubt that they're separate "people" -Oh, they have two different souls, no doubt of that. But do they have two different personalities, or are they one?

It could be some sort of Trinity, you know: the Father, the Son and the Unholy Philosopher.

Devlin1969
11-18-2009, 04:56 PM
Oh, they have two different souls, no doubt of that. But do they have two different personalities, or are they one?

It could be some sort of Trinity, you know: the Father, the Son and the Unholy Philosopher.

No they are separate.

By descriptions in the books and SH's own POV it is obvious that they are two separate individuals!

In that scene in aCoS, SH had Mog in a vacuole, SH throws her out of the vacuole into Moridins room. And the way RJ writes it, from Mogs POV he says "Moridin now has her Mindtrap".

Terez
11-21-2009, 01:04 PM
I've been meaning to post on this since I recovered the old letter on the Old Tongue from a broken link, but I couldn't remember where the discussion was.


Letter on the Old Tongue - 21 November 1994 - Bruce reporting (http://web.archive.org/web/19990427133503/http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eabergman/jordan/OTLetter.txt)


The word "moridin" means "grave" or "tomb," but when capitalized it means "the grave," standing for "death."