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klye
11-16-2009, 06:32 PM
I've been lurking for... 10 years? ... at this site and others preceeding it. And this is my first post. Yeah me!

Anyway, I think that Verin's note to Mat is the location of the Horn. I don't think it's in the tower. I'd think that more people in the tower would know about it, and/or dicuss about it otherwise. And I Definitely think the black would of stolen it my now.

That brings up another point. Who in the tower (pre/post attack) knows Mat blew the horn, and believe they know its current location?

Klye

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 06:42 PM
Maybe it's a warning that one of his Aes Sedai entourage are Black Ajah? Or that Olver is Demandred?

Maybe it's something she has gleaned about the Tower of Ghenjei and is passing on the knowledge to ensure his survival/Moiraine's rescue?

Given the short space of time we have before the stories conclusion I think it's the latter.

RogueSavior
11-16-2009, 06:46 PM
OLVER is Demandred? Share, dude. Share.

I agree with Klye, and did so immediately upon her handing it to him. She hid the Horn of Valere, and she told Mat where it is.

Terez
11-16-2009, 06:47 PM
Siuan said she was going to put the Horn somewhere where only she and Verin knew, so supposedly they're the only ones that know. Fain assumed it was in the same storage room as his dagger, but he was probably wrong. In any case, judging by the tons of letters she had prepared, and the fact that she told Mat not to open it for 10 days, I'd say her note probably contains a great deal of info about Darkfriends. Possibly also info about the Horn, but definitely the former.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 07:15 PM
Besides, if Siuan hasn't already told Egwene about the location of the Horn, it's likely at the top of her list in the next book.

Muirenn
11-16-2009, 07:38 PM
I think it would be hilarious if all it said was 'hang tight in Caemlyn for 10 more days, 'kay?'

Spasmodean
11-16-2009, 07:42 PM
I think it would be hilarious if all it said was 'hang tight in Caemlyn for 10 more days, 'kay?'

Mat reads the words, dumbfounded as to their meaning. Wordlessly he hands the letter to Thom who begins to recite:

We're no strangers to love
You know the rules, and so do I...

Solmancer
11-16-2009, 08:54 PM
I think that Verin basically tried to set up a mass Darkfriend purge, to be honest. We know she was a sleeper of a sort, but the major tipping factor was that she was Travelling around to give out many of these special notes, with likely conditions for doing them.

Secondly, she implies to Egwene she had written down as much about Darkfriend structure as possible (including names and plots) in her ciphered tome.

N.B. - Verin being who she is explains why she was more interested with Lord Barthanes's invitation to Rand in the Great Hunt. And well, we know who Barthanes was.

Terez
11-16-2009, 08:57 PM
Indeed, and she was seen talking alone with him, and gave Rand an evil look when he tried to join in. :D

Welcome back, Sol...

Frenzy
11-16-2009, 09:44 PM
The contents of the note are of interest, of course. But i'm more interested in why she stipulated that he wait to open it. Why does she want to nail his foot to the floor in Caemlyn?

Bonzi77
11-16-2009, 09:55 PM
The contents of the note are of interest, of course. But i'm more interested in why she stipulated that he wait to open it. Why does she want to nail his foot to the floor in Caemlyn?

Perhaps it had to be until she died or unswore her oaths so as to not betray those oaths.

Uno
11-16-2009, 10:00 PM
Ah, well, maybe the note will validate the good old "Mat is Verin's father" theory..

Davian93
11-16-2009, 10:18 PM
Perhaps it had to be until she died or unswore her oaths so as to not betray those oaths.

That's the logical guess...and the one I happen to believe.

Terez
11-16-2009, 10:22 PM
The contents of the note are of interest, of course. But i'm more interested in why she stipulated that he wait to open it. Why does she want to nail his foot to the floor in Caemlyn?
That's precisely why I think the note contains info about Darkfriends. If it does, then she couldn't have given it to him without that stipulation.

Solmancer
11-16-2009, 10:34 PM
The contents of the note are of interest, of course. But i'm more interested in why she stipulated that he wait to open it. Why does she want to nail his foot to the floor in Caemlyn?Assuming it's information about Darkfriends (who, where, what, etc.), the best way to coordinate a massive assault would be to do it all at once.

We already saw that, somehow, the Black Ajah was able to escape intact even though Egwene snuck up on them and they seemingly had no way to communicate with the Tower. I've always wondered if the Dark One had a way to know what happened to his followers (kind of like how Fain knows someone is one), and so a massive death of them would be a red flag they were exposed.

Ozymandias
11-16-2009, 10:41 PM
Mat reads the words, dumbfounded as to their meaning. Wordlessly he hands the letter to Thom who begins to recite:

We're no strangers to love
You know the rules, and so do I...

First rep I've ever given on the site. Well done sir, well done... you got me kicked out of the library for laughing for about 10 minutes.

On another note, I doubt any ToG info is in there; she has no reason at all to know of his quest in that particular direction.

Yuri33
11-16-2009, 10:43 PM
It's strange that she left no note for Rand. There are certainly Darkfriends hanging around him...

jason wolfbrother
11-16-2009, 10:45 PM
I like this idea. We are assuming that the BA that escaped the White Tower are headed for the Black Tower. And we know Mat is in Caemlyn and Verin asked him to stick around Caemlyn. I think he's going to help Elayne clean up the Black Tower before heading to the Tower of Ghenjei.

Terez
11-16-2009, 10:49 PM
It's strange that she left no note for Rand. There are certainly Darkfriends hanging around him...
She might have left one with someone else in his party. Or perhaps she returned to leave one. We don't know who the hell all those other letters were for - we only saw her give one to Mat.

FelixPax
11-16-2009, 11:02 PM
We already saw that, somehow, the Black Ajah was able to escape intact even though Egwene snuck up on them and they seemingly had no way to communicate with the Tower.

Alviarin Freidhen did have the foreknowledge of Elaida's foretelling a warning:

"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."

The Black communicated through written ciphered notes, and personal contacts (hearts), it wouldn't have taken that long to pass tell everyone to flee. Otherwise, how could Alviarin influence how issues argued at Sitters meetings came out in advance? That communication likely moved notes to the right person within 24 hours, especially in as a small place as the White Tower is.

Considering that Liandrin's 13 BA's had sleepweaver to enter the TAR, Alviarin very likely was communicating with a few of the now dead Salidar BA's via the TAR. If Sheriam, Moria or someone else were suppose meet Alviarin, but didn't, that would of been enough of a tip-off considering what Verin Sedai said about loyalist public opinion about Egwene and her 'associates'.

JSUCamel
11-16-2009, 11:03 PM
Perhaps it had to be until she died or unswore her oaths so as to not betray those oaths.

I'm not sure I buy that. Wouldn't the fact that she handed the note to him to begin with count as betrayal?

Let's say I slept with my best friend's wife, and she made me swear on a stack of Bibles not to tell him. If I give him a note that says "I slept with your wife", but tell him not to open it for 10 days, have I betrayed her? Or does the betrayal not occur until he reads it?


Having said that, I could see that working out as the reason.

Matoyak
11-16-2009, 11:04 PM
The Black communicated through written ciphered notes, and personal contacts (hearts), it wouldn't have taken that long to pass tell everyone to flee. Otherwise, how could Alviarin influence how issues argued at Sitters meetings came out in advance? That communication likely moved notes to the right person within 24 hours, especially in as a small place as the White Tower is.Or the black ajah sitters were on the BA council...and Alviarin just called a meet of those...

Blue Nine
11-16-2009, 11:24 PM
There is another reason for her requested 10 day delay. Having already seen other examples of wonky timelines in this book, it is completely possible that Verin needed up to 10 days to distribute her other letters and settle any other business she had. Only then was she free to meet with Egween and divulge her secrets. If we assume that Verin reveals at least some of her secrets to Matt in the letter, then by the time he opens it, it would be too late for anyone in his party to take action against her.

JSUCamel
11-17-2009, 08:20 AM
There is another reason for her requested 10 day delay. Having already seen other examples of wonky timelines in this book, it is completely possible that Verin needed up to 10 days to distribute her other letters and settle any other business she had. Only then was she free to meet with Egween and divulge her secrets. If we assume that Verin reveals at least some of her secrets to Matt in the letter, then by the time he opens it, it would be too late for anyone in his party to take action against her.

This is what I had thought when I read it, and it's still what I believe makes the most sense. Kudos, Blue Nine :)

Ishara
11-17-2009, 08:34 AM
Exactly - she wouldn't have given Mat the condition of waiting to open the letter unless she had also set something, most likely Wards, in place to ensure that the conditions were met.

I'm betting that it definitely relates to Darkfriends or Blacks in Mat's camp - I can't recall though...who saw Verin give Mat the letter? Any of the AS with Mat? Or was it just Mat on the uncomfortable bench and Talmanes outside?

Concievably though, it could also be about the Horn. I had thought that only Verin, Moiraine and Suian knew that Mat blew it? Why else would anyone else know?

(Oh - I just finished tGH and when they all pass through the Portal Stones (something...is not...right. Something is...wrong!) Verin says "I had not thought that I..." I loved it. Wondering now if she ended up being Black in all her lives...)

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 09:16 AM
Concievably though, it could also be about the Horn. I had thought that only Verin, Moiraine and Suian knew that Mat blew it? Why else would anyone else know?Well, Lanfear knew too, as did a random Fade in the Stone, Hurin knows. And of course, Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve know; no telling to whom they blabbed about this. Birgitte knows, Faile knows, the *finn almost certainly know.

Ishara
11-17-2009, 09:26 AM
Wait - how did Lanfear know? Are we supposing that Verin told her? And the girls - how do they know? They definitely weren't there! (unless it came out during the trip to Tar Valon - forgive me, I'm *just* starting tDR again today, and haven't gotten that far to refresh my memory)

Hmmm. I suppose it's not the best kept secret anyways...But it's also not knowledge that people were eager to give away either, you know? I'm not even sure that Suian told Leanne!

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 09:28 AM
Lanfear almost certainly knew because she had been watching the whole Falme situation closely. As you may remember, she did turn up quite soon in order to 'comfort' Rand, then left when she saw that he wasn't in the mood for it.

lurk
11-17-2009, 09:34 AM
Siuan said she was going to put the Horn somewhere where only she and Verin knew, so supposedly they're the only ones that know. Fain assumed it was in the same storage room as his dagger, but he was probably wrong. In any case, judging by the tons of letters she had prepared, and the fact that she told Mat not to open it for 10 days, I'd say her note probably contains a great deal of info about Darkfriends. Possibly also info about the Horn, but definitely the former.

Question, would Verin's black Ajah oath not prevent her from giving out the names of darkfriends even nin a note to Mat unless it was the hour of her death?

Or could she convince herself of the honourable streak of Mat not to open it until she was certainly dead or able to reclaim the note.

EDIT: I see that I should have read the entire thread first....

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 09:37 AM
Perhaps she could have Warded it so that it would catch fire if he opens it too soon. That'd be a fairly safe trick to pull, unless the person handling the paper wears a Power disturbing medallion.

To get back to E,E&N knowing that Mat blew the Horn: I am no longer absolutely sure that they knew. Upon rereading some seemingly relevant scenes, I didn't notice anything to indicate their knowledge.

Davian93
11-17-2009, 09:41 AM
Question, would Verin's black Ajah oath not prevent her from giving out the names of darkfriends even nin a note to Mat unless it was the hour of her death?

Or could she convince herself of the honourable streak of Mat not to open it until she was certainly dead or able to reclaim the note.

EDIT: I see that I should have read the entire thread first....

Yes, Moiraine stated that a AS can't write a lie anymore than speak one. I assume that the BA oath would be similar.

lurk
11-17-2009, 09:45 AM
I also remember only siuan, moiraine and verin knowing of the horn. Verin doe snot know Siuan is still alive afaik unless she got to know ith when she brought the girls from the two rivers to the rebels (a scene that was not told in the books, they suddenly were there after having been in Caemlyn or Cairhien sorry do not remember exactly).

Verin knows Moiraine is gone, asuming she thinks Siuan is gone too she is the only one knowing where the horn is and one of the few who knows Mat blew it. So I also think it a clue as where to find the horn.

But the note being a clue to where to find DF's is valid as long as her ginving the note is not a betrayal of the BA oaths.

Bonzi77
11-17-2009, 09:49 AM
Perhaps she could have Warded it so that it would catch fire if he opens it too soon. That'd be a fairly safe trick to pull, unless the person handling the paper wears a Power disturbing medallion.

To get back to E,E&N knowing that Mat blew the Horn: I am no longer absolutely sure that they knew. Upon rereading some seemingly relevant scenes, I didn't notice anything to indicate their knowledge.

Possible, but that's risky if the info in the letter needs to be passed on. We've seen from the oaths that the beliefs of the person giving the oath are determinate. An Aes Sedai can't lie, but they can be wrong, for example. So as long as Verin believed she could absolutely trust Mat to keep his word, she wouldn't have to ward the letter.

lurk
11-17-2009, 09:49 AM
Yes, Moiraine stated that a AS can't write a lie anymore than speak one. I assume that the BA oath would be similar.
True but thinking it is not a lie makes it possible to tell it. saee what happend with the conflicting oaths when the BA hunters got one of the rebel ferrets and made her say that setting up logain as false dragon by the reds was a lie. The ferret (forgot her name) believed it to be true (while it was a lie altogether) and got in trouble with having to admit that she was telling a lie. wow weird sentence...:confused:

Yellowbeard
11-17-2009, 09:54 AM
Maybe Verin convinced herself she only betrayed DF's and not the Great Lord himself?

Assuming that her letter contained info. pertinent to a planned DF purge of society, which I think is as good a guess as any.

Assuming she convinced herself the betrayal didn't happen until the letters were open, then she had a built in expiration date at which time she either had found the oath rod and released her BA oaths, died in excruciating pain from violating her BA oaths, or took poison to avoid said excruciatingly painful death.

I initially wondered why she killed herself rather than be patient and try to find the oath rod. I can't think of any other reason she'd have to off herself other than she didn't have time to search for the oath rod anymore.

Devlin1969
11-17-2009, 10:06 AM
Yes, Moiraine stated that a AS can't write a lie anymore than speak one. I assume that the BA oath would be similar.

It is my opinion that she is not breaking her oath as long as no one reads it before the hour of her death, or after her death.

Sarevok
11-17-2009, 10:31 AM
It is my opinion that she is not breaking her oath as long as no one reads it before the hour of her death, or after her death.
Seconded. However, even if we didn't think so, it'd be only Verin's interpretation of the oath that counts. :)

Weird Harold
11-17-2009, 10:42 AM
Yes, Moiraine stated that a AS can't write a lie anymore than speak one. I assume that the BA oath would be similar.
No she didn't. She never said a word in that scene and only nodded at Rand's assumption that AS can't write a lie.

Whether she was confirming that Rand was making an assumption or whatever, she did it without speaking a word, untrue or not.

By the literal wording of the Oath, Moriane's reaction to Rand's assumption is not proof that a lie can't be written.

The BA Hunter's assumption that BA could be detected by reviewing reports is more convincing that AS can't lie in writing, but it is still an assumtption not supported by the literal nature of an Oath's restrictions.

Bonzi77
11-17-2009, 10:46 AM
No she didn't. She never said a word in that scene and only nodded at Rand's assumption that AS can't write a lie.

Whether she was confirming that Rand was making an assumption or whatever, she did it without speaking a word, untrue or not.

By the literal wording of the Oath, Moriane's reaction to Rand's assumption is not proof that a lie can't be written.

The BA Hunter's assumption that BA could be detected by reviewing reports is more convincing that AS can't lie in writing, but it is still an assumtption not supported by the literal nature of an Oath's restrictions.

Could that be the minor detail Brandon was talking about. Moiraine's implication that Aes Sedai can't write a lie and whether or not that is accurate? Couple that with Verin's revelations and that could be a big deal.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 11:08 AM
Alviarin's letter to Rand shows quite clearly that BA can actually lie in writing. Most of it can be explained away (by assuming that she's not talking about herself), but the ending "My life lies beneath your fingers, my Lord Dragon Reborn, and I am your servant." is not really anything else than an outright lie.

Spasmodean
11-17-2009, 11:11 AM
Alviarin's letter to Rand shows quite clearly that BA can actually lie in writing. Most of it can be explained away (by assuming that she's not talking about herself), but the ending "My life lies beneath your fingers, my Lord Dragon Reborn, and I am your servant." is not really anything else than an outright lie.

Can be gotten around by perhaps taking the meaning of Aes Sedai to extremes?

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2009, 11:15 AM
I just realised: the whole potentially explosive issue of Alviarin's letter is now defused. That was quite an impressive red herring, I think.

Terez
11-17-2009, 11:26 AM
Indeed it was. A little frustrating, actually, since he put so much effort into setting it up to do something, and then he had Verin come in out of nowhere to steal Alviarin's glory.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-17-2009, 11:39 AM
Alviarin's letter to Rand shows quite clearly that BA can actually lie in writing. Most of it can be explained away (by assuming that she's not talking about herself), but the ending "My life lies beneath your fingers, my Lord Dragon Reborn, and I am your servant." is not really anything else than an outright lie.

I'm confused by this...BA can lie, we know this, it makes no difference if it is in writing or not, that is a moot point.

The issue of Verin's letters and whether they are a betrayal before her "last hour" basically come back to that damn Shrodinger's cat. I hate that frickin' cat.

Bonzi77
11-17-2009, 11:49 AM
Alviarin's letter to Rand shows quite clearly that BA can actually lie in writing. Most of it can be explained away (by assuming that she's not talking about herself), but the ending "My life lies beneath your fingers, my Lord Dragon Reborn, and I am your servant." is not really anything else than an outright lie.

Of course. Black Ajah can lie in any medium. But a different question is, can non-black ajah Aes Sedai lie in print. Moraine implies they can not. But she doesn't say it out loud-- she didn't speak a word--so I don't think it's conclusive that they can not. There is nothing in the wording of the oath that covers written words.

Davian93
11-17-2009, 11:51 AM
Alviarin's letter to Rand shows quite clearly that BA can actually lie in writing. Most of it can be explained away (by assuming that she's not talking about herself), but the ending "My life lies beneath your fingers, my Lord Dragon Reborn, and I am your servant." is not really anything else than an outright lie.

I was talking about trying to get around an Oath by writing it instead of saying it...Lying in the case of a normal AS and "betraying the DO" in the case of Verin or any other BA member.

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 01:33 PM
I was talking about trying to get around an Oath by writing it instead of saying it...Lying in the case of a normal AS and "betraying the DO" in the case of Verin or any other BA member.
Well, so far as we have been told, the Oaths are worded very differently. Verin's Oath was to not betray the Black Ajah until the hour of her death, whereas the Oath against Lying specifies "not speaking a word that is not true." The BA Oath doesn't leave the same loophole available to exploit.

Brita
11-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Well, so far as we have been told, the Oaths are worded very differently. Verin's Oath was to not betray the Black Ajah until the hour of her death, whereas the Oath against Lying specifies "not speaking a word that is not true." The BA Oath doesn't leave the same loophole available to exploit.
Again, I ask, isn't the very act of writing the notes and journal an act of betrayal? I guess we could argue motive, but I would say at the very least, the notes were written with the intention to betray, and probably most of the journal as well.

Ah well, "the hour of your death" thing is a bit of a literary stretch anyway, and I don't mind overlooking it because of the awesomeness that is Verin.

Crispin's Crispian
11-17-2009, 04:26 PM
Ah, well, maybe the note will validate the good old "Mat is Verin's father" theory..
Good Lord, I had completely forgotten about that one.

Didn't Pedron Niall fit in there somehow, too? I think maybe he was Mat's grandson, or something.

Belazamon
11-17-2009, 04:47 PM
Again, I ask, isn't the very act of writing the notes and journal an act of betrayal? I guess we could argue motive, but I would say at the very least, the notes were written with the intention to betray, and probably most of the journal as well.
It depends on how you justify it to yourself, of course. The Oath doesn't prevent anyone from planning to betray, just from actually betraying. So it would be pretty easy to argue that nothing's been actually betrayed until the information is made available.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-17-2009, 04:47 PM
I was not, and am not, convinced that Verin's explanation of the oath she took was necessarily the COMPLETE oath(s). There may be more, she may have explained it in her journals, we may get explanations of Oaths at Shayol Ghul v. Oaths made by darkfriends v. Oaths made by BA.

There must be different levels, or glitches, and we can assume this based on Liandrin's Oaths PRIOR to the White Tower:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 18 - A Hound of Darkness
Liandnn drew a relieved breath. She would not die. "Great Mistress, there is no need to shield me. I also serve the Great Lord. I swore my oaths as a Darkfriend before ever I went to the White Tower. I sought the Black Ajah from the day that I knew that I could channel."

Verin's comments in TGS seemed to me to show she had taken different oaths, stronger, more painful? And something has to remove the AS oaths, of which Verin's revelations indicate nothing. There has to be more, we just have to wait and see.

Terez
11-17-2009, 05:02 PM
Galina said that the Black Ajah also takes 3 Oaths. This explains why they still have the ageless look, as RJ confirmed that less than 3 Oaths will not create the ageless look.

Isabel
11-18-2009, 12:31 AM
I think the letter contains info about Taim and the Black Tower. And perhaps some info about DF in Mat's camp.

Or perhaps other info about plots of the DO.

klye
11-18-2009, 01:20 PM
I initially wondered why she killed herself rather than be patient and try to find the oath rod. I can't think of any other reason she'd have to off herself other than she didn't have time to search for the oath rod anymore.

I thought the exact same thing when I read it. She's very methodical. She's been willing to slowly go about her plan for 70 years. Now she finds out that she can't find the rod and decides she can't wait anymore?

Something was set in motion on the side of the black that drove her to make this rash move. Could she have know about the upcoming attack? I doubt it.

Also, WHAT did rand, or others, say in her presence that drove to to abrutly leave rands company? We all thought it had to do with the borderlanders. Now I'm not so sure.

Ieyasu
11-18-2009, 02:21 PM
You know, I was idly thinking about Verin's letter to Mat, and the Foretelling of the Black Tower being rent in fire and blood. I also thought of his conversation with Aludra over materials needed for mass production of her Dragons. Since he is in a city for awhile, he might get a couple of them made up...

I wonder if perhaps we will see Mat test his first few Dragons on Black AM? It would be interesting to see Mat with his more or less mundane army vs one power army. Though I am not quite sure what Verin would expect Mat to be able to do against the Black Tower, she isn't aware of his plans to make cannon. So I kind of think she would give this information to someone else who may be better suited to handle such in her mind, like Rand or Cadsuane. I also wonder just how much Verin knows about the Dark Friends in the Black Tower, as they appear to be a much more recent addition to the Shadow's forces, I am not so sure if the Black Ajah is connected with their male counter parts.

It will be interesting to see if Verin knows anything about a BA Salidar meeting point contingency plan incase of mass exposure. Seems to me a secret society must have a preplanned plan to deal with exposure in the event it happens. Though again, I question if she would tell Mat that, or someone else.

I think that letter has a number of things in it, instructions to pass on, information for Mat, and while I like the idea of the Horn coming back, I can see it remaining hidden and never making another appearance as well.

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 12:47 AM
Just to be devil's advocate: can we be sure Mat reads Verin's letter? There's a recent Stormleader report implying that Mat stays in Caemlyn for 30 days, meaning he most likely did not open Verin's note after 10 days.

Isabel
11-19-2009, 01:13 AM
Why would that imply he didn't open it. What if there were things in it, that required him to stay in Caemlyn?

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 01:24 AM
If he was going to open it, it would have been after 10 days.

TGS, The Death of Tuon:
"You may choose not to open the letter," Verin said. "Burn it. But if you do so, you wait fifty days in Caemlyn, just in case it takes me longer to return than I had expected."

That gave him pause. Fifty days was a long time to wait. But if he could do it in Caemlyn, rather than traveling on his own. . . .

Was Elayne in the city? He'd worried about her, since her escape from Ebou Dar. If she was there, he might at least be able to get production started quickly on Aludra's dragons.

But fifty days? Waiting? Either that, or open the bloody letter and do what it said? He didn't like either option. "Twenty days," he said.

"Thirty days," she said, rising, then raised a finger to cut off his objection. "A compromise, Mat. Among Aes Sedai, I think you shall find me to be far more amenable to those than most." She held out her hand.

Thirty days. He could wait thirty days. He looked at the letter in his hands. He could resist opening it, and thirty days of waiting didn't really lose him any time. It was only a little longer than he'd take to reach Caemlyn on his own. In fact, this was a bloody bargain! He needed a few weeks to get the dragons going, and he wanted time to find out more about the Tower of Ghenjei and the snakes and foxes. Thom couldn't complain—when it would take them two weeks to reach Caemlyn anyway.

Verin eyed him, a hint of worry on her face. He couldn't let her know how pleased he was. Let a woman know that, and she'd find some way to make you to pay her back.

"Thirty days," Mat said reluctantly, taking her hand, "but at the end of them, I can go."

"Or you can open the letter after ten days," Verin said, "and do what it says. One of the two, Matrim. I have your word?"

"You do," he said. "But I'm not going to open the bloody letter. I'm going to wait thirty days, then be off on my business."

The most likely scenarios that involve him staying in Caemlyn for 30 days and opening the letter would be:

1) He opens the letter after 10 days, and part of Verin's instructions require him to stay at least 20 days more. I think this would be lame.

2) He waits 30 days, freeing himself of the note. But because of what Verin says, he gets worried that something happened to her, and then becomes curious enough to open the note. Possible, but it's a little odd.

Spasmodean
11-20-2009, 11:49 AM
Was said by another insightful poster in another thread.
Verin is playing on Mat's impatient nature by asking him to wait x amount of days in Caemlyn (she originally wanted 50).
Probably after 5 days in Caemlyn, in the company of Elayne, he'll decide that he'd rather open the letter than waste any more time getting sniffed at with much twitching of skirts and being called a worthy subject.

As for the contents of the note, perhaps a DF plot involving the Band? Or maybe the knowledge he needs to succeed at the ToG. I remember him saying that he would use the time in Caemlyn to do a bit of research on it rather than walking in blind.

Ishara
11-20-2009, 12:11 PM
I still think it has to do with the Horn. So far, I haven't seen anything to indocate that only he, Moiraine, Suian and Verin were the only ones to know that he blew. Of those 3 AS - ony Verin was in a position to help him now.

bonesbro
11-25-2009, 05:49 PM
I don't think that Verin could betray the BA in her letter, but she could betray any Darkfriends who are with Mat. Like Talmanes (who is really Demandred, you know).

Calharn
12-17-2009, 04:57 AM
I don't think that Verin could betray the DO or as many BA as she did until the hour of her death. Now while the extensive notes that she had written cannot be considered betrayal because
1. It was written in a code only she knew and
2. she never gave it to anyone until her hour of death.

I doubt she could do the same with the note to Matt unless she warded it to be erased if he read it sooner. Mainly because she cannot control when he would read it otherwise, and the delivery of this note to Matt would be the act of betrayal without such a ward.

Although betraying DFs in his camp would help, it could lead to her being led to betray how she knew such things and thus betraying the DO so I doubt it is a list of DFs in his camp, or if she'd be able to give him such a list.

I Think we might be able to come closer to the writing inside of it if we can come up with a better idea for the 10 day waiting period and the 30 days waiting if he does not open it.... something about those numbers must be significant.

Anaiya Sedai
12-17-2009, 01:22 PM
I don't think that Verin could betray the BA in her letter, but she could betray any Darkfriends who are with Mat. Like Talmanes (who is really Demandred, you know).

is he now...:rolleyes:

padfoot89
12-17-2009, 02:24 PM
While the note might have a list of Darkfriends, I somehow doubt it. How would she know who was with Mat's party ? If there was anyone important, they would have tried to kill Mat already because of Moridin's order.
What I am interested about is what instructions she left in it. Something that Mat had to follow if he opened it in 10 days or else he had to wait 30 days and could burn the note ? And the 30 days was apparently a compromise by Verin.
Could it be that she was trying to involve Mat in something either through his own will (open the letter in 10 days..) or through circumstances (wait 30 days..) ?

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-17-2009, 03:51 PM
to me, it seems there is inaction involved in this.

open it...follow direction...ten days

don't open it...stay where you are and wait for me just in case...30 days

that strikes me as something she DOES NOT WANT HIM TO DO in 30 days, either by accident or intentionally. the main focus is KEEP HIM IN CAEMLYN for 30 days. I would guess the letter directs him to stay there for some reason.

The question is why?

Keep him FROM Rand
Keep him FROM Perrin
Keep him FROM Tuon
Keep him FROM Egwene

Keep him WITH Elayne (remember, Verin knows she is there, Mat is unsure of this, even when making his agreement with her)
Keep him WITH Birgitte
Keep him NEAR Taim


Then tie in Verin's motives...
She is Black Ajah
She is undermining/uncovering the Black Ajah/Dark Friends
She is trying to protect Aes Sedai interests

We know she was content to find Mat OR Perrin, she herself was not sure which of the boys she would find...question here is does she leave Mat and go to Perrin off-camera? Will we be shown this later? Or did she go next to the Tower.

I think Verin knows something about Taim and/or the Black Tower. She wants Mat nearby for what is assumed to come next.

I agree with whomever proposed Caemlyn as the scene for the next big (or the beginning of the Last) Battle.

Does Verin know that Rand, Perrin and Mat need to be together for the fireflies/sparks to resolve into, well, whatever they are gonna resolve into?

GonzoTheGreat
12-18-2009, 04:14 AM
To add to Saucy's list:
To keep him FROM Moiraine.

True, we don't know how Verin could know about that. But then, she is AS, maybe she saidared the knowledge.

wolframbohr2
12-18-2009, 04:51 AM
She could be going off of what she saw during her trip with the portal stones. She may have saw a ton of variations where if Mat is not there or does or does nto do something he almost always dies or the Light fails (making the assumtion that Verim's soul is White which I believe). Just like Moraine deciding not to bed Rand cause that always ended in disaster. Maybe if he is not there for what ever reason stuff ends in disaster.

Crispin's Crispian
12-18-2009, 10:51 AM
She could be going off of what she saw during her trip with the portal stones. She may have saw a ton of variations where if Mat is not there or does or does nto do something he almost always dies or the Light fails (making the assumtion that Verim's soul is White which I believe). Just like Moraine deciding not to bed Rand cause that always ended in disaster. Maybe if he is not there for what ever reason stuff ends in disaster.

The last we heard of Perrin, he had made up his mind to be a hero and do what needed to be done. Right now he's trying to find out what that is via the wolves. But I think he might eventually realize he needs to be by Rand's side. I expect he might go to Caemlyn first, as that's approximately where the Black Tower is, and as far as Perrin knows Rand is still involved.

Verin could be trying to tie the boys back together, and somehow she knows Perrin will be there (Portal Stones, convoluted timelines, etc.). I also wonder of Caemlyn is Rand's next move, too.

jason wolfbrother
12-18-2009, 11:03 AM
Now that he is no longer cultivating a heart of stone I would not be surprised if he misses Elayne ;) ;) :cool:

Terez
12-18-2009, 03:24 PM
The last we heard of Perrin, he had made up his mind to be a hero and do what needed to be done. Right now he's trying to find out what that is via the wolves. But I think he might eventually realize he needs to be by Rand's side. I expect he might go to Caemlyn first, as that's approximately where the Black Tower is, and as far as Perrin knows Rand is still involved.

Verin could be trying to tie the boys back together, and somehow she knows Perrin will be there (Portal Stones, convoluted timelines, etc.). I also wonder of Caemlyn is Rand's next move, too.
Well, there's a reason why the Caemlyn convergence was popular even before this book. Elayne has the throne now, so there is no longer a reason for Rand to avoid Caemlyn. Perrin needs to find Rand, and he has Morgase with him (and we knew that he was likely to meet up with Galad). Mat had to meet up with the rest of his army, which Talmanes sent into Andor, and he also has to go to Ghenjei (in Andor). The only difference in the way it actually played out is that Mat went to Caemlyn first - most of us assumed he would go to Ghenjei first.

Daekyras
12-18-2009, 04:14 PM
to me, it seems there is inaction involved in this.

open it...follow direction...ten days

don't open it...stay where you are and wait for me just in case...30 days



Would anyone else ROFL if when mat opened it the note said:

Mat,
Verin here. Hi.
Please stay in Caemlyn for 20 more days.
Thank you.
Verin.
p.s. Thats a lovely hat you have.
p.p.s the hat is a darkfriend.
V

jason wolfbrother
12-18-2009, 10:23 PM
Would anyone else ROFL if when mat opened it the note said:

Mat,
Verin here. Hi.
Please stay in Caemlyn for 20 more days.
Thank you.
Verin.
p.s. Thats a lovely hat you have.
p.p.s the hat is a darkfriend.
V

ROFL


have rep that made my day.

dukescott
12-19-2009, 04:21 AM
I also remember only siuan, moiraine and verin knowing of the horn. Verin does not know Siuan is still alive afaik unless she got to know ith when she brought the girls from the two rivers to the rebels (a scene that was not told in the books, they suddenly were there after having been in Caemlyn or Cairhien sorry do not remember exactly).

Verin knows Moiraine is gone, asuming she thinks Siuan is gone too she is the only one knowing where the horn is and one of the few who knows Mat blew it. So I also think it a clue as where to find the horn.

Does anyone have any quotes / evidence to indicate that Verin knows that Siuan or Moraine are alive? I think that the Horn makes the most sense for what is in the note... although that probably also makes it the least likely ... damn RJ.

nameless
12-19-2009, 05:27 AM
Verin was spending a good deal of time with Nyneave and Cadsuane in Far Madding, but if Siuan came up it happened offscreen.

I don't think anyone knows Moiraine is alive who hasn't read her letter. Even Min and Egwene believe she's dead and they've both all but Foretold her return. Of course, all the Aes Sedai traveling with Rand know about Min's ability and Verin liked to play her cards close to her chest so it's possible she knows there is an unfulfilled vision of Moiraine and figured it out from there.

Terez
12-19-2009, 02:27 PM
As to Moiraine, it doesn't matter, because Moiraine was chasing Rand across the southern countries when the Horn was brought to the Tower with Mat. Only Siuan and Verin knew where it was, and I have a feeling that it wasn't in either of the rooms with the 'angreal in them, though we are led to believe it was when Fain got his dagger from the room with the ter'angreal. Siuan said they would put it somewhere where only she and Verin knew, but she didn't say where, and there's no real evidence that she has mentioned it to Egwene. For that matter, there's no real evidence that Verin didn't betray its location to the Black Ajah.

dukescott
12-19-2009, 03:38 PM
Wait.... doesn't Alvarian know where it is? She stopped Fain when he was getting the dagger?

wolframbohr2
12-19-2009, 03:57 PM
The dagger and the HoV were probably sepperated when they got to the WT. Lots would know about the dagger cause of healing Matt, but only a few know of the HoV.

With all the rooms moving in the WT, would the HoV be in the same place?

Terez
12-19-2009, 04:27 PM
Wait.... doesn't Alvarian know where it is? She stopped Fain when he was getting the dagger?
If it was actually in that room, then it would seem strange if she didn't know about it (which is part of what makes me believe it wasn't there). If Alviarin knows of it, it's from Verin.

wolframbohr2
12-20-2009, 02:56 AM
The more I think about this, the more I think it may be something to do with the HoV. The HoV is what Verin and Mat have in common. The lower time limit may be the time limit due to her being succesfull in the WT and spiriting the HoV away for Mat. The longer time might be if she had to resort to plan B and die. After she died she would not know how long it would take Egwene to act on the BA. It may be where she is hoping the BA mess would be taken care of, or the clean up starting so as to make it "safer" for Mat to get the HoV out of the WT. Yes, it takes time to get to TV, but she would probably not risk him traveling there by gateway.

Like it was said before, this seems the most obvious, so its probably wrong. But who knows.

Or maybe she is going to reveil that Mat is her father, I know, I know, RJ said she is not or that she did not time travel, i knda forget and its late here, but I still like her time traveling.

Or maybe she is going to tell him that there is a 2nd line to "It's time to roll the dice." Maybe, Put the quarter in and pull the leaver, or maybe the lyrics to a song, like....

"On a warm summer's evenin' on a train bound for nowhere,
I met up with the gambler; we were both too tired to sleep.
So we took turns a starin' out the window at the darkness
'Til boredom overtook us, and he began to speak.

He said, "Son, I've made a life out of readin' people's faces,
And knowin' what their cards were by the way they held their eyes.
And if you don't mind my sayin', I can see you're out of aces.
For a taste of your whiskey I'll give you some advice."

So I handed him my bottle and he drank down my last swallow.
Then he bummed a cigarette and asked me for a light.
And the night got deathly quiet, and his face lost all expression.
Said, "If you're gonna play the game, boy, ya gotta learn to play it right.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
Is knowin' what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

And when he'd finished speakin', he turned back towards the window,
Crushed out his cigarette and faded off to sleep.
And somewhere in the darkness the gambler, he broke even.
But in his final words I found an ace that I could keep.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done."

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 08:15 PM
I think it's pretty safe to say that Egwene now knows where the HoV is as well (via Siuan).

Weird Harold
12-21-2009, 11:02 PM
I think it's pretty safe to say that Egwene now knows where the HoV is as well (via Siuan).
I'm not sure that I'd want to bet the rent on that. The HoV has been pretty much a non-player since Falme.
While Siuan knows where it is (supposed to be,) she's had more immediate concerns on her mind since it was hidden away. I can't see any particular reason for the subject to have come up in her training of Egwene; especially since Egwene wouldn't have had access to wherever it is stored in the Tower until the last two books, and Egwene was pretty much pre-occupied with more immediate concerns.

I don't think the HoV is going to be remembered by Siuan until Mat shows up asking for his Horn. I think it is quite likely that when/if he does show up, the Horn is going to be missing and not be found again for most of a full Turning when "The Battle of Falme" rolls around again.

dukescott
12-21-2009, 11:02 PM
If it was actually in that room, then it would seem strange if she didn't know about it (which is part of what makes me believe it wasn't there). If Alviarin knows of it, it's from Verin.

You are correct Terez. I went back and re-read the section. The Horn wasn't there.

Yuri33
12-22-2009, 12:05 AM
I don't think the HoV is going to be remembered by Siuan until Mat shows up asking for his Horn. I think it is quite likely that when/if he does show up, the Horn is going to be missing and not be found again for most of a full Turning when "The Battle of Falme" rolls around again.

You believe we're done with the Horn? Interesting...

Weird Harold
12-22-2009, 01:47 AM
You believe we're done with the Horn? Interesting...
Yes I do believe that. Especially since one of two who know whereit is supposed to be is dead and the one that is dead was BA and might have put it someplace other than where Siuan thinks she put it.

Also, as Far as I can recall, Rand has quit carrying the original Dragon Banner around, so the Horn will be essentially useless even if MAt does retrieve it because the Heroes ust follow the Banner when the Horn calls them.

dukescott
12-22-2009, 04:03 AM
Also, as Far as I can recall, Rand has quit carrying the original Dragon Banner around, so the Horn will be essentially useless even if MAt does retrieve it because the Heroes ust follow the Banner when the Horn calls them.

Interesting... Does anyone know where the original Dragon banner is? According to eWot:
KoD,Ch21 � The original Dragon Banner no longer flies over the Stone of Tear. High Lord Darlin replaced it with the three silver crescents of Tear.

Are we sure it needs to be the original or can it be a copy? There are definitely plenty of copies around.

I do seem to recall a statement that the HoV is not mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle... But I don't think we are done with the Horn yet. For some reason Fain wants it (there have been at least two references to this). It hasn't been explained why he wants it though.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2009, 04:09 AM
For some reason Fain wants it (there have been at least two references to this). It hasn't been explained why he wants it though.Probably just a case of "my precious".
He has had the Horn, so as far as he is concerned, it is his property, and no one else has the right to keep it from him.

Bane Darkwulf
12-29-2009, 07:33 PM
I pretty much disregard anything Eladia says is a foretelling, especially as the WT whole one is so well timed. She was talking to someone who had doubts about her.

I, for one, see it as being a huge Red Herring. This is due to the fact that Eladia is in trouble when she made it, and knows she is. It was a quick glue to keep the tower together, and for a foretelling, it isn't vague at all, as every other foretelling has been. It is just too damn convenient.

wolframbohr2
12-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Maybe the horn was melted down and made into coin. Mat has been winning the coins as he goes around the world, but still needs some more. When he gets all the coins, the all are in the same sack thanks to being tarveran (sp), it morphs back into the horn. This happens when he does a pick up game of dice the evening before TG.

Terez
12-30-2009, 11:11 PM
I pretty much disregard anything Eladia says is a foretelling
That is, I think, unwise. She is bound by the Oaths, and she can't lie about Foretelling something.

especially as the WT whole one is so well timed. She was talking to someone who had doubts about her.
We saw it through her point of view. It is very real:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
PROLOGUE - Lightnings

Elaida clenched her fist as though she held all the rebels by the throat. Or Alviarin. "I mean to break them, daughter. They will split open like a rotten melon." Her secret assured that, however many farmers and tailors Lord Bryne hung on to, but let the other woman think as she would. Suddenly the Foretelling took hold of her, a certainty about things she could not see stronger than if they had been laid out before her. She would have been willing to step blindly over a cliff on that certainty. "The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al’Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."
As usual, the Foretelling left her trembling, gasping for breath. She forced herself to stand still and straight, to breathe slowly; she never let anyone see weakness. But Alviarin... Her eyes were wide as they could open, lips parted as if she had forgotten the words she meant to speak. A paper slid from the sheaf in her hands and almost fell before she could catch it. That recalled her to herself. In a flash she regained her serene mask, a perfect picture of Aes Sedai calm, but she definitely had been jolted to her heels. Oh, very good. Let her chew on the certain surety of Elaida’s victory. Chew and break her teeth.


I, for one, see it as being a huge Red Herring. This is due to the fact that Eladia is in trouble when she made it, and knows she is. It was a quick glue to keep the tower together, and for a foretelling, it isn't vague at all, as every other foretelling has been. It is just too damn convenient.
It was a red herring for Elaida, who misinterpreted it, but we know it will happen. Also, Egwene saw the confrontation between herself and Rand in her dreams, so the Foretelling is corroborated. We know that there will be war with the Black Tower because Taim has captured the Aes Sedai who went there on Rand's invitation. Even if Elaida were not bound by the Oaths, there would be no reason to disbelieve this one.