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View Full Version : The Mesaana Misunderstanding (direct quote from Brandon)


Terez
11-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Direct quote from Brandon, via Twitter and Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=210803246334)

(link 1 (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=325523045067), link 2 (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=174351828546), link 3 (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=216028304761), link 4 (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=181580396749), link 5 (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=210803246334), link 6 (http://www.facebook.com/Mistborn?ref=mf#/Mistborn?v=feed&story_fbid=191408489168))


Re: Mesaana. People have been misquoting me a lot on this one. Early in the tour someone claimed to have a quote where RJ said that her alter ego hadn't been seen. This shocked me, since I thought she had been. I have been waiting until I got home to check it out. The only thing official I have said is that someone claimed RJ said on the Knife of Dreams tour that she hadn't been seen, and can say nothing until I am off tour and can research old RJ interviews to find if I've missed something. I think it likely the person was mixed up. (later) Word from Maria: RJ said we HAVE seen Mesaana's alter ego on screen. That's good. The guy from DC had me worried. I thought I'd known from the notes exactly who Mesaana was, and that she has been on screen...

Muirenn
11-17-2009, 06:12 PM
Also that Maria confirmed that Mesaana's alter ego *HAS* been seen onscreen!

*Note that this is what I said in my report, that Brandon was told that this was the case from someone he considered a reliable source (he did not say who). But that I would have to look up the quote to be sure. :)

Terez
11-17-2009, 06:41 PM
Also that Maria confirmed that Mesaana's alter ego *HAS* been seen onscreen! That is in the quote I gave. :p

*Note that this is what I said in my report, that Brandon was told that this was the case from someone he considered a reliable source (he did not say who). But that I would have to look up the quote to be sure. :) Well, what made it confusing is that he went on to disqualify Laras based on her being in New Spring. So here we are thinking, jeez, he's writing the books, so surely he knows if she's been seen on screen before Knife of Dreams, right? lol....but anyway, it's thankfully cleared up now. :D

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting (http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50071.msg1360812.html#msg1360812)

Claire: Is Laras Mesaana?
Brandon: RJ once stated that Mesaana had not been seen on screen in her assumed identity yet as of the end of Knife of Dreams. (he didn't want to say if she had been seen on screen in The Gathering Storm, because he didn't want to limit good discussion)
Brandon: And we see Laras in New Spring.
Muirenn and Az: But is the Laras in New Spring is the same as the Laras we see now?
Brandon: *laughs* RAFO.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75147#poststop)

Regarding Mesaana's alter ego: Brandon said that he had been sent a reliable quote from a Jordan interview that she wasn't anyone we had seen 'on screen' as of Knife of Dreams (? he may have said Crossroads of Twilight? I need to find the quote). Specifically, he said that Laras has been around since New Spring. And would not say if Mesaana was 'on screen' as her alter ego in The Gathering Storm, because he doesn't want to limit good discussion.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Toadstool Book Shop, Milford NH 7 November 2009 - Meg Lurvey reporting (http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1021)


Q. Has Mesaana’s alter ego been seen yet “on stage”? [I suspect the fan that asked this is one of the Blues I mentioned earlier, though she may be a Brown, too.]
A. “I’m afraid I’m going to have to RAFO that.” Any yes/no would set all the fans, especially on the message boards and fans into figuring it out by process of elimination. The crowd pressed him for hints, and he did confirm that she is still in the White Tower. This statement was met with speculative “oohhh”’s and pensive looks as new theories were born then and there.

Muirenn
11-17-2009, 06:52 PM
Oh, believe me, we were all stunned at dinner!

And as a side note, I'm not willing to give Brandon any flak for not-quite-right answers at signings. He's only had the material for two years, and he is trying to refer the more difficult/convoluted/plotsy questions to Maria. :)

It is very cool how much more comfortable he is answering questions now that he was at D*Con last year!

Terez
11-17-2009, 06:59 PM
Oh, I'm not giving him any flak either. I just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding before the tour was done. Glad that was accomplished. We still need to clear up the Cyndane thing that just came out of AZ, though - he said that Cyndane was 'very weak', but Graendal says in The Path of Daggers chapter 12 that Cyndane is, while weaker than Lanfear was, still stronger than her. Actually, the weaker than Lanfear was bit came from another book, but you know what I mean....

Muirenn
11-17-2009, 07:19 PM
That wasn't directed at you specifically, more of a caveat emptor. I've seen a lot of really mean posts on DM & TV.net about simple misspeaks or typos, and I really don't want that to start up here too.

The Cyndane thing is another good example. I waiting to get more info on that one, too.

WinespringBrother
11-18-2009, 10:29 AM
I have a feeling that whoever sent the information to Brandon got his/her wires crossed. RJ has been quoted as saying that Demandred's alter ego has never been seen on screen, but I've never seen anything stated like that for Mesaana. Otherwise, we would never have any threads speculating about Mesaana.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2009, 10:49 AM
Perhaps this is Demandred (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sir_Not-Appearing-in-this-Film)?

One Armed Gimp
11-18-2009, 01:15 PM
The only thing I dislike is that he seems to give much more RAFO's than Jordan did, especially on things I think Jordan would have given more of an answer on. Maybe he is scared at giving us to much.

Matoyak
11-18-2009, 01:20 PM
The only thing I dislike is that he seems to give much more RAFO's than Jordan did, especially on things I think Jordan would have given more of an answer on. Maybe he is scared at giving us to much.Wut? :confused: It's the opposite... BS gives quite a bit more away than RJ ever did...

Matoyak
11-18-2009, 05:26 PM
Hmmm...going to post this in this thread as well and delete it from the other thread. It fits better in this one:
Okay, time to post about Cyndane for you theorylanders. I have been discussing with Maria all day. She and I have different opinions on......some things in the notes, but she has convinced me that she is right. I believed that there were some...issues with her power level. [such as?] Dark one playing tricks to keep everyone guessing. But Maria convinced me her power really is what it seems. So you can disregard my...My comment about her being really really weak and stick with the word I used earlier. "weakened." This is what you get for asking about things that we are still picking apart the notes regarding.;). You know I love you, theorylanders. (Even if I sometimes feel like I'm surrounded by a pack of wolves when talking to you.)So...good remarks about TLers all around. Though maybe we should enlighten him as to our true name of HCFF? >_>
That said, we're back where we were about Cyndane. So...good? Bad? yay? boo?

Terez
11-18-2009, 06:03 PM
I'm glad to be back where we were about Cyndane. However, Brandon's confusion leads me to wonder if perhaps she wasn't actually stilled and then Healed. Part of the argument against that has always been that she is only somewhat weaker than she was before, rather than significantly weaker like Siuan and Leane. But if she was stilled and then Healed, then that might explain why Brandon thought she was 'really, really weak'.

Matoyak
11-18-2009, 06:06 PM
I'm glad to be back where we were about Cyndane. However, Brandon's confusion leads me to wonder if perhaps she wasn't actually stilled and then Healed. Part of the argument against that has always been that she is only somewhat weaker than she was before, rather than significantly weaker like Siuan and Leane. But if she was stilled and then Healed, then that might explain why Brandon thought she was 'really, really weak'.I'm a bit more curious as to the Dark One line...

Tamyrlin
11-18-2009, 07:17 PM
However, Brandon's confusion leads me to wonder if perhaps she wasn't actually stilled and then Healed. Part of the argument against that has always been that she is only somewhat weaker than she was before, rather than significantly weaker like Siuan and Leane. But if she was stilled and then Healed, then that might explain why Brandon thought she was 'really, really weak'.

Well, the other part is her new body. Never thought about this before...what if Lanfear's new look is a Mask of Mirrors of sorts made by the True Power, more a permanent new look for Lanfear's betrayal? A joke of sorts and her diminished power is just from the stilling/healing...

Thoughts?

Matoyak
11-18-2009, 07:23 PM
Thoughts?I think that this: Dark one playing tricks to keep everyone guessinghas a bit more to it...why would he have thought that was why Cyndane was so much weaker? How could the DO play tricks like that? Why would this make her "Very very weak" rather than just "Somewhat weaker"?

One Armed Gimp
11-18-2009, 07:26 PM
Wut? :confused: It's the opposite... BS gives quite a bit more away than RJ ever did...

Its seems like every report or transcript I read is filled with RAFO's that I believe RJ would have answered differently. For instance:

Q. Has Mesaana’s alter ego been seen yet “on stage”? [I suspect the fan that asked this is one of the Blues I mentioned earlier, though she may be a Brown, too.]
A. “I’m afraid I’m going to have to RAFO that.” Any yes/no would set all the fans, especially on the message boards and fans into figuring it out by process of elimination. The crowd pressed him for hints, and he did confirm that she is still in the White Tower. This statement was met with speculative “oohhh”’s and pensive looks as new theories were born then and there.

Why RAFO that one, RJ has already answered this with an affirmative. I get the feeling that BS is a little afraid of giving away to much and taking some mystery out whereas RJ would answer with a yes or no and nothing more just to see us squirm.

FelixPax
11-18-2009, 07:33 PM
I'm glad to be back where we were about Cyndane. However, Brandon's confusion leads me to wonder if perhaps she wasn't actually stilled and then Healed. Part of the argument against that has always been that she is only somewhat weaker than she was before, rather than significantly weaker like Siuan and Leane. But if she was stilled and then Healed, then that might explain why Brandon thought she was 'really, really weak'.

True, what exactly happened to Lanfear fighting Moiraine after entering into the Eelfinn's world? Why did Lanfear need a new body, and a new name Cyndane, to go along with a bit less strength in the One Power? And assuming she died there (which I do), how does the Dark One or one of his associates bring the dead back to life in a new body? Is the dead bought back to life, in a still severed state? And healed after the fact? So does Cyndane power level, point to healing by another unknown Female Channeler, a Chosen, rather than a Male Channeler?

Brandon did include at least one reference to Lanfear in tGS by Mat:

Mat had little love for Moiraine, but he wouldn't leave her to them; no matter that she was Aes Sedai. Bloody ashes. He'd probably be tempted to ride in and save one of the Forsaken themselves if they were trapped there.
And...maybe one was. Lanfear had fallen through that same portal. Burn him, what would he do if he found her there? Would he really rescue her as well?

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 12:06 AM
I'm glad to be back where we were about Cyndane. However, Brandon's confusion leads me to wonder if perhaps she wasn't actually stilled and then Healed. Part of the argument against that has always been that she is only somewhat weaker than she was before, rather than significantly weaker like Siuan and Leane. But if she was stilled and then Healed, then that might explain why Brandon thought she was 'really, really weak'.

Perhaps we can get an answer by asking if healing by the same gender results in a proportional loss or a fixed loss. In other words, is it:

Old Siuan (20) -> New Siuan (20/2 = 10)

Or

Old Siuan (20) -> New Siuan (20-10 = 10)

If it's a fixed loss, then we can make more sense of Cyndane:

Lanfear (60) -> Cyndane (60-10 = 50)

Terez
11-19-2009, 01:13 AM
Hmm, well....Siuan was pretty strong before - only one notch below Cadsuane, who is one notch below Egwene, who is one notch below Nynaeve, who is, apparently, one notch above Mesaana.

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2009, 04:46 AM
I think that this: has a bit more to it...why would he have thought that was why Cyndane was so much weaker? How could the DO play tricks like that? Why would this make her "Very very weak" rather than just "Somewhat weaker"?Well, the DO may have done to Lanfear/Cyndane what she herself had done to Asmodean: attach a partial shield that lets some Power through, but not more than intended.

Interesting question to ponder: if Asmodean had wanted to, could he have managed to burn himself out?
I think not, though I have too little data to really support that idea.

Tamyrlin
11-19-2009, 09:22 AM
I had the same thought (on Twitter) last night - I wonder if she is partially shielded by the True Power. While stilling, dying and being transmigrated fits too...

Well, this weekend I will ask Brandon more about the nature of the Dark One and the True Power, such as, should we consider the Dark One a channeler, must he weave the power as we see others weave it? Also, I'll throw out the death quotes and stilling and burning out and not affecting the next life and how that applies to transmigration.

WinespringBrother
11-19-2009, 10:20 AM
I thought of a Lanfear question you could ask:

Can dreamwalkers who are trapped in Finnland still access TAR/GOI when sleeping?

greatwolf
11-19-2009, 11:10 AM
Of course, the current body could be Lanfear's as well. Not impossible...

Bonzi77
11-19-2009, 11:13 AM
I had the same thought (on Twitter) last night - I wonder if she is partially shielded by the True Power. While stilling, dying and being transmigrated fits too...

Well, this weekend I will ask Brandon more about the nature of the Dark One and the True Power, such as, should we consider the Dark One a channeler, must he weave the power as we see others weave it? Also, I'll throw out the death quotes and stilling and burning out and not affecting the next life and how that applies to transmigration.

Good chance you get a RAFO about the nature of the Dark One. That's been a close protected mystery from the beginning.

Terez
11-19-2009, 11:54 AM
I had the same thought (on Twitter) last night - I wonder if she is partially shielded by the True Power. While stilling, dying and being transmigrated fits too...
If that was the case, I doubt Maria would say that her strength 'really is what it seems'.

Terez
07-28-2010, 05:28 AM
There is a Mesaana quote that I just noticed that I missed when I was going back through the tour stuff:

The Gathering Storm book tour 10 November 2009 - Laurel4Amyrlin reporting (http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,49575.msg1352716.html#msg1352716)

I asked Brandon about Mesaana, and if we'd seen her Aes Sedai a/e on stage yet. His answer was two-part: per RJ, we hadn't seen her on stage prior to KoD, but he wouldn't confirm or deny her appearance since then -- that was RAFO-ed.

He did, however, tell me that she WAS still in the White Tower at the end of TGS. SO. There's a little tidbit of info for you to chew on. I want to hear some theories!
The first part does not discredit the reporter obviously, since Brandon was actually telling people that. The second part is good to know! Sorry I missed it.

Neilbert
07-28-2010, 09:10 AM
Well, this weekend I will ask Brandon more about the nature of the Dark One and the True Power, such as, should we consider the Dark One a channeler, must he weave the power as we see others weave it? Also, I'll throw out the death quotes and stilling and burning out and not affecting the next life and how that applies to transmigration.

Ask if he could, if he wanted to, teach a channeler some nifty weaves.

Ieyasu
07-28-2010, 11:09 PM
I had the same thought (on Twitter) last night - I wonder if she is partially shielded by the True Power. While stilling, dying and being transmigrated fits too...

Well, this weekend I will ask Brandon more about the nature of the Dark One and the True Power, such as, should we consider the Dark One a channeler, must he weave the power as we see others weave it? Also, I'll throw out the death quotes and stilling and burning out and not affecting the next life and how that applies to transmigration.

Her powerlevel is noticeably lower to other ppl who sense her total strength. If she were shielded she merely wouldnt have access to it all, they would still sense her at normal strength, they do not. Her saidar pool has been diminished, not dammed imo

Terez
07-29-2010, 12:24 AM
Ask if he could, if he wanted to, teach a channeler some nifty weaves.
Dates, m'dear.

FelixPax
07-29-2010, 12:49 PM
There is a Mesaana quote that I just noticed that I missed when I was going back through the tour stuff:

Originally Posted by Brandon
The Gathering Storm book tour 10 November 2009 - Laurel4Amyrlin reporting

I asked Brandon about Mesaana, and if we'd seen her Aes Sedai a/e on stage yet. His answer was two-part: per RJ, we hadn't seen her on stage prior to KoD, but he wouldn't confirm or deny her appearance since then -- that was RAFO-ed.

He did, however, tell me that she WAS still in the White Tower at the end of TGS. SO. There's a little tidbit of info for you to chew on. I want to hear some theories!


Melare.


Melare's literal surprise and shock upon seeing Egwene al'Vere being captured, putting her up there among the prime candidates. As Melare (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/m/melare.html) role, physical appearance was only disclosed in KoD. :D

Melare knew who Egwene was, yet Egwene did not know who Melare was at all. That's a clue.


Even the fact Melare is Andoran, fits with the know facts of groups of darkfriend children acting a kin to Mesaana's within Andor.

Melare's appearance fits, Mesaana's known description too.


In any case, Birgitte and now Rand should remember what Mesaana's face looks like now.

Ieyasu
07-29-2010, 01:21 PM
In any case, Birgitte and now Rand should remember what Mesaana's face looks like now.

Birgitte should not recognize any of the Forsaken anymore, as her memories have degraded. She cannot remember prior to the founding of the White Tower which was well after the bore was sealed and the Forsaken were captured.

FelixPax
07-29-2010, 05:44 PM
Birgitte should not recognize any of the Forsaken anymore, as her memories have degraded. She cannot remember prior to the founding of the White Tower which was well after the bore was sealed and the Forsaken were captured.

Not recognize any Forsaken? :rolleyes:




Nynaeve has a distinctly different memory...

Birgitte actually remembered the War of Power, one lifetime of it anyway, and the Forsaken. Her past lives were like books fondly remembered from long ago, the more distant dimmer than the nearer, but the Forsaken stood out. Especially Moghedien.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 14 "Meetings" - Nynaeve point of view, with Birgitte


Birgitte has her own specific plans for Moghedien.

“I always say, if you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.” Birgitte’s smile was grim. “Moghedien sprang the trap, but my neck is not yet snapped. Perhaps I will surprise her before it is done.”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 36 "A New Name" - Elayne point of view


Birgitte once again, points out how to strike back at Moghedien to both Nynaeve & Elayne.

“If I thought Moghedien was hunting me,” Birgitte said finally, “I would run. If there was no other place to hide than a badger’s hole, I would wriggle in and curl into a ball and sweat until she was gone. I would not stand in front of one of Cerandin’s s’redit if it charged, either; and neither is cowardice. You must choose your own time and your own ground, and come at her in the way she least expects. I will take my revenge on her if ever I can, but that is the only way I will. Anything else would be foolish.”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 49 “To Boannda” – Nynaeve point of view, with Elayne, Birgitte

Birgitte could never forget Moghedien's face, especially after spending a good deal of time next to her in Salidar, Altara. :)

Ieyasu
07-29-2010, 06:17 PM
Not recognize any Forsaken? :rolleyes:




Nynaeve has a distinctly different memory...




Birgitte has her own only specific plans for Moghedien.




Birgitte once again, points out how to strike back at Moghedien to both Nynaeve & Elayne.



Birgitte could never forget Moghedien's face, especially after spending a new deal of time next to her in Salidar, Altara. :)

Thanks for pointing all that out, unfortunately, as of KoD, Birgitte herself is musing about the Balfire info that she herself gave to Elayne prior to losing those memories. She used to remember the War of Power, as of now she does not. She can hardly even remember the founding of the White Tower, let alone anything prior it that. Her memories have degraded since she was torn out of TAR and she no longer (as of kod and beyond) remembers anything older than the founding.

GonzoTheGreat
07-30-2010, 04:40 AM
She can probably still recognise Moghedien, having hobnobbed with her since she was ripped out. But none of the other Forsaken have formally presented themselves to the Daughter Heir, so Birgitte wouldn't recognise any of them anymore.

kivo
08-01-2010, 12:04 PM
Has Danelle been discredited as Mesaana's most likely Aes Sedai persona? I just hit the prologue of A Crown Of Swords in my re-read this morning and it seems to be pretty clear that Danelle is Mesaana.

Terez
08-01-2010, 02:12 PM
Has Danelle been discredited as Mesaana's most likely Aes Sedai persona?
No. She's the most popular suspect, though there isn't really a lot going for her. Part of me still suspects Nicola, though it would be awkward in many ways. I used to scoff at Nicola, but two things in TGS make me not scoff so much any more: Mesaana's white dress, and the fact that Nicola only had to swear the Oath against lying long enough to say she wasn't a Darkfriend and then she was released from it. She has been fishy from the beginning, though possibly just a red herring. Would fit with Mesaana posing as Else in TDR (yes, I still think that was Mesaana, despite the signing report that claims RJ confirmed it was Lanfear).

isamu237
08-01-2010, 10:57 PM
Ask if he could, if he wanted to, teach a channeler some nifty weaves.

I'm pretty sure that's (more or less) been answered. Looking back through the database now to confirm, but didn't BS state that SH had shown Elza new weaves including how to open Cady's box?

Terez
08-01-2010, 11:01 PM
If his wording was accurately preserved, then no, he did not say that.

Terez
08-02-2010, 02:10 AM
Forget what I said about Nicola. I keep forgetting that Brandon ruled out anyone that he is certainly familiar with, like Nicola and Sharina. There's no way he could have been confused about whether or not she'd been seen on screen if he had written the character to any extent.

kivo
08-03-2010, 11:23 PM
No. She's the most popular suspect, though there isn't really a lot going for her.

I think there's quite a bit going for Danelle. Her role in overthrowing Siuan, going from dreamy-looking to calculated like the mask suddenly dropped, the big blue eyes, being a Brown. Danelle is described by Alviarin as being "solitary with no friends even in her own Ajah" and a few pages later Alviarin surmises than Mesaana is hiding in the Tower, as a Sister, and that she must be one who had few close friends or none at all (though in fairness she presumes she must be someone who just came to the Tower post-summons).

It is strange how a Brown sister with no friends even in her own Ajah ends up in the coup of an Amyrlin.

The evidence might not be perfect, but there's a decent amount. Is there a candidate with better evidence or even comparable evidence?

Terez
08-04-2010, 04:11 AM
I don't know about better candidates, but my point about the evidence is that it is all very circumstantial, with nothing really compelling. Yes, Danelle is a good possibility, but I don't know that the evidence is such that I would choose a side on this debate.

Zak
09-07-2010, 11:08 PM
Forget what I said about Nicola. I keep forgetting that Brandon ruled out anyone that he is certainly familiar with, like Nicola and Sharina. There's no way he could have been confused about whether or not she'd been seen on screen if he had written the character to any extent.

Not to mention that Nicola was in the rebel camp as a Novice for most of the time in question. Sure, I suppose she could have gated back and forth, but all references to Mesaana say she is in the White Tower, and that she is (or was) acting to foment discord there. Not easy to do on a Novice's schedule, even with Traveling.

GonzoTheGreat
09-08-2010, 04:00 AM
Then there is the fact that Nicola and Moghedien travelled together for a while, and I don't think Mesaana would've managed to keep from squabbling with Marigan.

Terez
09-08-2010, 04:34 AM
I wouldn't exactly say they were traveling together...and both could have hidden from the other with the inverted weaves, though one of them might have figured it out.