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Trutino
11-18-2009, 01:26 AM
I know there is a thread about Verin's note to Mat, but I wanted to get a conversation going about Verin's revelations more generally. (Particularly in light of what BS said [see below]) There was a post within the last day or so (and is now on the Theoryland database under Verin) which mentions an interview with Brandon.

Verin’s revelations will have ramifications throughout the last two books. Brandon is surprised that more people haven’t been asking about this.

This suggests that the ramifications are broader than we had thought and that there is a lot of room for speculation fun. :) The revelations he refers to could either be the books she gave to Egwene, the stack of sealed letters or a combination of the two. What else is in Egwene's book? Who did she send other letters to? What kind of information had Verin gathered?

a dragonburned fool
11-18-2009, 05:06 AM
First, there are her general observations on what the evil of the Dark One really is in comparison of what is visible e.g. in the Forsaken. This is something Rand just must know. And it's the first thing that Verin does reveal to Egwene too:
"I've followed some little of the foolishness going on between the Aes Sedai factions, though I decided not to get involved personally. It was more important to continue my research and keep an eye on young alThor. He's a fiery one, I must say. I worry about the lad. I'm not certain he understands how the Great Lord works. Not all evil is as ... obvious as the Chosen. The Forsaken, as you'd call them."
"Obvious?" Egwene said. "The Forsaken?"
"Well, by comparison." Verin smiled and warmed her hands on her cup of tea. "The Chosen are like a bunch of squabbling children, each trying to scream the loudest and attract their father's attention. It's easy to determine what they want: Power over the other children, proof that they are the most important. I'm convinced that it isn't intelligence, craftiness, or skill that makes one Chosen—though of course, those things are important. No, I believe it is selfishness the Great Lord seeks in his greatest leaders."
Egwene frowned. Were they really having a quiet chat about the Forsaken? "Why would he choose that quality?"
"It makes them predictable. A tool you can depend upon to act as expected is far more valuable than one you cannot understand. Or perhaps because when they struggle against one another, it makes only the strong ones survive. I don't know, honestly. The Chosen are predictable, but the Great Lord is anything but. Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what he wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

And about the book:"The small book is a key, Egwene," Verin explained. "It contains the cipher I used to write this tome. That tome is the . . . work. My work. The work of my life."
"What is it?" Egwene asked softly, suspecting she might know the answer.
"Names, locations, explanations," Verin said. "Everything I learned about them. About the leaders among the Darkfriends, about the Black Ajah. The prophecies they believe, the goals and motivations of the separate factions. Along with a list, at the back, of every Black Ajah sister I could identify."Note that the list of the BA is mentioned as something going "along" with the work itself, an addendum of sort. It's not only limited to the BA too. But most prominently are mentioned exactly beliefs, motivations, prophecies among Darkfriends of different sort, i.e. systematized information to understand what the Darkfriends as whole want and how they work, information to make them predictable. A clue to make Ishamael as the actual creator of the darkfriends organization more understandable too.

FelixPax
11-18-2009, 05:23 AM
I know there is a thread about Verin's note to Mat, but I wanted to get a conversation going about Verin's revelations more generally.

...

This suggests that the ramifications are broader than we had thought and that there is a lot of room for speculation fun. :)

Here's one "ramification" setup, Mat will be in Caemlyn long enough for Valan Luca's circus to appear in town now. We know this because of Mat's estimations of travel time to Caemlyn from Trustair. Valan Luca's circus is taking a more direct route to Caemlyn on a good road thru Lugard, which should make up for his show days in Murandy.

That's important because Valan Luca is most likely a reborn Hero, and will I think go with Mat, Thom to the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine. If Verin's letter of staying in Caemlyn for ten days to month didn't happen, Mat might of missed meeting up with Valan Luca.

I didn't see the value of Valan Luca's character going forward before tGS, yet he will help set-up the conditions for the Light to win at T'G. How? By helping to save Moiraine from the Eelfinn. Rand needs to see Moiraine live...without Luca would Moiraine escape at all?

Ishara
11-18-2009, 08:54 AM
Here's one "ramification" setup, Mat will be in Caemlyn long enough for Valan Luca's circus to appear in town now. We know this because of Mat's estimations of travel time to Caemlyn from Trustair. Valan Luca's circus is taking a more direct route to Caemlyn on a good road thru Lugard, which should make up for his show days in Murandy.

That's important because Valan Luca is most likely a reborn Hero, and will I think go with Mat, Thom to the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine. If Verin's letter of staying in Caemlyn for ten days to month didn't happen, Mat might of missed meeting up with Valan Luca.

I didn't see the value of Valan Luca's character going forward before tGS, yet he will help set-up the conditions for the Light to win at T'G. How? By helping to save Moiraine from the Eelfinn. Rand needs to see Moiraine live...without Luca would Moiraine escape at all?

Okay, and I say this with love, but you are certifiable Felix! ;) Where on EARTH are we getting that LUCA is a Hero?! Really?

Bonzi77
11-18-2009, 09:00 AM
Okay, and I say this with love, but you are certifiable Felix! ;) Where on EARTH are we getting that LUCA is a Hero?! Really?

I wondered the same thing. In Rand's trip to Rhuidean when he got his ancestors memories and the history of the Aiel, there was a character named Luca who roughly met the description of Valan Luca. So he's putting two and two together and getting 15, in my opinion. It's more likely a coincidence, or even that he's reborn but not a hero. Everyone gets reborn without being tied to the Horn.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-18-2009, 11:18 AM
I am gonna be lazy and not look up quotes.

But, I recall Moiraine's letter to Thom telling him (or Thom inferring?) only 3 people could go.

Thom
Mat
Noal volunteers


so Luca is not involved. I just don't see this in any way, shape or form.

And the Luca = a Hero is interesting (in an amusing way), but has no logical or substantial proof to even begin to back it up. The name is similar? He has broad shoulders? His character needs to do something? Seriously, Masema was creamed with less "ta-daaaa" than I expected. Luca, other than his marriage and traveling companions (Aludra,the girls,etc)does not strike me as a character that will tie anything up.

C'mon, my Siuan was a DF had more threads you could tie together than this does.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2009, 11:41 AM
Well, you will have to admit that Valan Luca is brave enough: he dared try to chat up Nynaeve. Multiple times.

bowlwoman
11-18-2009, 12:50 PM
And about the book:Note that the list of the BA is mentioned as something going "along" with the work itself, an addendum of sort. It's not only limited to the BA too. But most prominently are mentioned exactly beliefs, motivations, prophecies among Darkfriends of different sort, i.e. systematized information to understand what the Darkfriends as whole want and how they work, information to make them predictable. A clue to make Ishamael as the actual creator of the darkfriends organization more understandable too.

What if the struggle between the DO/Creator is what we could call order vs entropy? A lot of the DO's agenda thus far has been to create chaos, destroy order, unravel the pattern so that reality warps, etc. OTOH, the side of the Light is struggling to maintain reality and the "order" of human civilization, however guided or misguided their ideals of "order" are (see WT, Seanchan, White Cloaks, etc).

I wonder if that's why Ishy turned in the first place. I know some scientific theories in our time state that the universe is ultimately heading toward total entropy, so it's possible that Ishy took it a step further into the philosophical realm and decided that ultimately, it's not worth it to fight on the side of the Light, since they're scientifically/philosophically destined to lose anyway. Not that I agree with this, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

So, it's possible that Verin's book spells this out. There is probably a loosely organized confederation of DF's, but no major laws/rules governing them save don't betray the DO. That leaves a lot of wiggle room (see Verin herself), and that type of organization would just add fuel to the entropy fire by creating more and more unexpected events.

AbbeyRoad
11-18-2009, 01:08 PM
I agree with all points above, and would like to add that Verin's sealed letters likely were the culmination of years of planning a timed, organized rout of Darkfriends. I assumed Verin was distributing letters to various people spread out over the globe with similar time constraints to help simultaneously eradicate the DF power base. In my mind, Mat's letter was kind of a special case since his ta'verenness pulled her across the globe, but I got the impression that most of the letters were intended for assassination attempts on DF leaders.

I also wonder if Rand will end up with his own letter. Based on the timeline, I'm not sure if it is likely to happen, but it could be interesting, and he could certainly use one, you know, being the leader of the Light, and primary weapon against the Dark One, as well as most likely being surrounded by DF's/BA and all that jazz.

Trutino
11-18-2009, 07:03 PM
I've been thinking a lot about the dark prophecy angle. We all know this one from tGH:

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
(refrain)

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
(refrain)

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
(refrain)

This one is quite accurate. Did we miss anything in it or is there anything we might interpret differently? Did we ever figure out what ancient wrong the "seed" was going to slay?

Beyond this one, we don't really have any other dark prophecies yet. It is interesting, though, that BS has confirmed that the Essanik Cycle is not the Karaethon Cycle and is made of prophecies given in Seanchan. The mention of this and the accurate quote from EC at the end of tGS suggests that we might have two fairly accurate, full sets of prophecies to play with in the next two books: dark prophecies and the Essanik Cycle.

Davian93
11-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Just a thought here but we have only Verin's word that the above translation is what was written on the dungeon wall. Remember she's the one (along with another Brown) that wrote it down and "translated" it for Siuan and Moiraine. It could have easily been altered in the translation process or it might not have even said that at all. It could have been Verin pushing them in a certain direction.

isamu237
11-18-2009, 08:23 PM
To add more fuel to the wild speculation, remember there's not just one notebook. We know from TDR and PoD Verin has hundreds and hundreds of these little notebooks containing her life's works and observations. In the PoD she thinks one day she'll have to pass on the cipher so her work is not lost. Thus, presumably, this one key unlocks every single one of her notebooks containing who knows what. But Egy could set Siuan and Leane to digging through these and turn up any amount of information.

fdsaf3
11-18-2009, 10:09 PM
To add more fuel to the wild speculation, remember there's not just one notebook. We know from TDR and PoD Verin has hundreds and hundreds of these little notebooks containing her life's works and observations. In the PoD she thinks one day she'll have to pass on the cipher so her work is not lost. Thus, presumably, this one key unlocks every single one of her notebooks containing who knows what. But Egy could set Siuan and Leane to digging through these and turn up any amount of information.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm not sure I quite follow the logic. The syllogism you're constructing here is this:

Verin writes many books
Verin writes, in particular, ONE cipher which decodes ONE book.
.....?
Thus Verin's ONE cipher decodes ALL of Verin's books.

I feel like there's a missing piece to the logic there. No offense.

But here's something else for you to think about. Verin, like all the other Darkfriends we've seen, is paranoid and self-serving. It's true for every single Darkfriend we've seen thus far, and it's true for her. A person like that might reasonably code all of her books in a different cipher, rendering all of her work useless to anyone after she dies unless she passed off the decoder as she did with Egwene.

So I have to say, I'm not all that big a fan of the concept of Verin's books or notes being a Big Reveal in future books. And even IF you're right, that much information would take a bunch of people a lot of time to sift through and organize. The amount of lost information when someone dies is staggering, no matter how careful that person is in leaving behind everything in a well documented fashion.

Just a thought here but we have only Verin's word that the above translation is what was written on the dungeon wall. Remember she's the one (along with another Brown) that wrote it down and "translated" it for Siuan and Moiraine. It could have easily been altered in the translation process or it might not have even said that at all. It could have been Verin pushing them in a certain direction.

This was actually the first thing I went to go read again after I read Verin's chapter in TGS. I think you might be on to something, but this is assuming that RJ planned all along that Verin was almost-but-not-quite Black. Personally, I think he meant for her to be a shady character, a sneaky one to be sure, but I think at a certain point he realized he could wrap up a lot of loose story ends with one stone by having it play out the way it did. Call me a cynic.

FelixPax
11-18-2009, 10:22 PM
Just a thought here but we have only Verin's word that the above translation is what was written on the dungeon wall. Remember she's the one (along with another Brown) that wrote it down and "translated" it for Siuan and Moiraine.

That was Serafelle of the Brown Ajah, who also helped translate the Dark Prophecy from prison wall in Fal Dara. The last reference to Serafelle is TDR,Ch18 (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/s/serafelle.html) when she is part of the circle healing Mat. No idea where Serafelle is now....

-----------------------------------------------------

We know Verin had a Second Librarian in the Palace of Caemlyn as an eyes & ears agent for the Brown Ajah, but I'm not sure if she would leave a letter for Milam Harnder to pass on to Elayne in ten days or not?

Milam Harndar earlier indirectly helped Verin setup, the attack on Demira Eriff (Domani, Brown Ajah) by not showing up to an arranged meeting.

Anyways I'd be surprised if Verin Sedai didn't arrange for a letter to be received by Elayne, especially considering she has captured BA's in Caemlyn already. She could of given it, directly to Elayne while she was in Caemlyn herself with Mat.

--------------------------------------------------

Valan Luca's courage

Well, you will have to admit that Valan Luca is brave enough: he dared try to chat up Nynaeve. Multiple times.

Not to mention in the very chapter where Mat tells Noal, Thoma, Olver about his experiences with the *Finns and learns of Moiraine letter; Luca shows more courage yet again:

Except for the few that had followed Luca into the meadow, the show's wagons stood strung out along the road, and everybody was down on the ground, women comforting crying children, men trying to quiet trembling horses, everyone talking fearfully, and loudly, to be heard over the bears and the lions and the leopards. Well, everyone except the Aes Sedai.

Luca's bravery is equal to, if not greater than Teslyn, Edisena and Joline's, according to Mat's own point of view.

For all of the show of hands, there was a shadow of reluctance to cross that patch of road ahead. After Luca got his wagon back onto the road, he sat staring, with Latelle clinging to his arm as hard as Amathera ever clung to Juilin. Finally, he muttered something that might have been an oath and whipped his team up with the reins. By the time they reached the fatal stretch, they were at a gallop, and Luca kept them there until well beyond were the paving stones had been. It was the same with every wagon. A pause, waiting until the wagon ahead was clear, then a flailing of reins and a hard gallop. Mat himself drew a deep breath before heeling Pips forwards. At a walk, not a gallop, but it was hard not to dig his heels in, especially when passing the peddler's hat.

Who is the very first person to guide himself to cross the meadow, where the dead ghost Shiotan's took a peddler and horse away to another place?

Luca, guiding his wagon along his clinging wife Latelle across that meadow.

So he's putting two and two together and getting 15, in my opinion. It's more likely a coincidence, or even that he's reborn but not a hero. Everyone gets reborn without being tied to the Horn.

I never said nor claimed that Valan Luca was tied to the Horn of Valere. I claim he is a reborn Hero of the Pattern. Who I believe will be Mat's 3rd man to go with him to the Tower of Ghenjei to "save" Moiraine. Who I think will also offer another spotlight on Shara --its peoples, places, stories-- in Caemlyn to the Queen of Andor Elayne.

It's not a coincidence that Luca shows extreme courage, in the very chapter Mat learns of Moiraine's letter from Thom. It's not a coincidence that both Luca dress, and actions express traits of Da'Shain Aiel; nor is it an accident that Valan Luca has attracted Uno, Cerandin, and Aludra. That's what Hero's do, help fix (aid or right) the Pattern, in Brandon's own words. And Valan Luca's actions have helped right Mat, Tuon, Nynaeve, and Elayne's paths along the Pattern for the Light.

And yes, even Valan Luca himself mentions speed to get to Lugard, and on to Caemlyn:

Luca listened in silence, a bright red cloak wrapped around him, until most of the showfolk's energy was spent. When their shouts began to trickle away, he flung back the cloak and walked among them. There were no grand gestures, now. Here he clapped a man on shoulder, there peered earnestly into a woman's eyes. The coutry roads? They would be half mud, more streams than roads, from the spring rains. It would take twice as long to reach Lugard that way, three times, maybe longer. Mat almost choked to hear Luca invoke speed, but the man was hardly warming up.

Luca has enough time to get to Caemlyn, before Mat leaves Caemlyn for the Tower of Ghenjei, in "The Towers of Midnight". The much is a solid bet, based on quotes for KoD & tGS books, and Luca's expressed destination intentions.

Without Verin's letter holding Mat in Caemlyn it would be a wildcard, but ten days to thirty days (tGS pg.558) is more than enough time for Luca to get to Caemlyn to see Mat, Elayne and Birgitte--especially considering Luca was off screen for all of Mat's pov in tGS.

Davian93
11-18-2009, 10:30 PM
That was Serafelle of the Brown Ajah, who also helped translate the Dark Prophecy from prison wall in Fal Dara. The last reference to Serafelle is TDR,Ch18 when she is part of the circle healing Mat. No idea where Serafelle is now....

She's inconsequential as Verin is the one that read it to Siuan/Moiraine. Regardless of whether it was an accurate translation by Sarafelle, Verin could have easily altered it to suit her own wishes. As she was Black Ajah, she clearly had easy access to dark prophecies and knew what needed to happen. For all we know, she had a part in the original writing of the prophecy onto the dungeon walls.

Kalli
11-18-2009, 10:38 PM
It's not a coincidence that Luca shows extreme courage, in the very chapter Mat learns of Moiraine's letter from Thom. It's not a coincidence that both Luca dress, and actions express traits of Da'Shain Aiel; nor is it an accident that Valan Luca has attracted Uno, Cerandin, and Aludra. That's what Hero's do, help fix (aid or right) the Pattern, in Brandon's own words. And Valan Luca's actions have helped right Mat, Tuon, Nynaeve, and Elayne's paths along the Pattern for the Light.

Luca Faction needed :D

Belazamon
11-18-2009, 11:44 PM
Who is the very first person to guide himself to cross the meadow, where the dead ghost Shiotan's took a peddler and horse away to another place?

Luca, guiding his wagon along his clinging wife Latelle across that meadow.
If he was brave, he would've ridden slowly through the meadow to show everyone there was nothing to be afraid of. Instead, he ran through it as fast as he could, because there was no eay way 'round. ;)

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 12:34 AM
Before TGS, there were many theories about where Verin would go after she left Rand. None of us got that one right, but one of the interesting points was the manner and timing of her departure. She left rather suddenly, after hearing a conversation between Rand, Logain, and Casuane (and a brief thing about Loial which I think we can ignore). The things that are talked about (in order) are:

1) Update on Andor including the Borderlanders (and 13 AS with them)

2) Confirming that AM from the BT have been moved to Arad Doman, including progress in bringing order there.

3) Reporting Taim's questionable activity at the BT

Verin herself interjects a comment at this time:

KoD, News for the Dragon:
“Taim very likely will have to wait on the Last Battle, whatever he’s about,” Verin said suddenly. Her knitting, a shapeless lump that might have been anything, sat in her lap. “It will come soon. According to everything I’ve read on the subject, the signs are quite clear. Half the servants have recognized dead people in the halls, people they knew alive. It’s happened often enough that they aren’t frightened by it any longer. And a dozen men moving the cattle to spring pasture watched a considerable town melt into mist just a few miles to the north.”
Cadsuane had raised her head and was staring at the stout Brown sister. “Thank you for repeating what you told us yesterday, Verin,” she said dryly. Verin blinked, then took up her knitting again, frowning at it as though she, too, were unsure what it was going to be.

4) A discussion of Rand's plan to make peace with the Seanchan, including Rand revealing what he heard from the Finns (The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live you must die).

5) Loial's companions arrive.

Verin has been hanging out in Rand's company for quite some time, yet suddenly she decides at this point to leave Rand a letter and leave. The letter is fairly nonspecific: trust Cadsuane, don't trust anyone else (funny how Rand went the opposite way with Cads in TGS).

Something in that conversation prompted Verin to begin her elaborate betrayal of the Shadow. I think it has to do with Rand's revelation of the Finn's answer, so there may be a clue there to figure out what her other notes may reveal and whom she gave them to.

What if the struggle between the DO/Creator is what we could call order vs entropy? A lot of the DO's agenda thus far has been to create chaos, destroy order, unravel the pattern so that reality warps, etc. OTOH, the side of the Light is struggling to maintain reality and the "order" of human civilization, however guided or misguided their ideals of "order" are (see WT, Seanchan, White Cloaks, etc).

I wonder if that's why Ishy turned in the first place. I know some scientific theories in our time state that the universe is ultimately heading toward total entropy, so it's possible that Ishy took it a step further into the philosophical realm and decided that ultimately, it's not worth it to fight on the side of the Light, since they're scientifically/philosophically destined to lose anyway. Not that I agree with this, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I know what your getting at here, but the proper terminology here is order vs nihilism. Ishmael joined the Shadow because he believes there is no point in continuing a struggle that will never come to an end (each turn of the Wheel brings a new Last Battle). He wants it to end in "perfect" nothingness. This is what Rand was near believing himself up on Dragonmount before his catharsis. We also have Herid Fel's note on how to win for the Light: "Belief and Order give strength."

The scientific theory your referring to is known as the Big Freeze, which is currently under debate with another theory called the Big Crunch. The first states that there isn't enough mass in the universe to provide enough gravitational pull to reverse the Big Bang, so the universe will ultimately end in a uniform soup of total entropy. The opposing theory states that there is enough mass such that gravity will overcome the Big Bang and bring the entire universe to a single point again.



Felix: Please stop jacking every thread into a Luca discussion. Start one on your own, and defend your loony theory there.

FelixPax
11-19-2009, 03:03 AM
Felix: Please stop jacking every thread into a Luca discussion. Start one on your own, and defend your loony theory there.

Verin's Letter and her "Bargain" with Mat directly effect Valan Luca's storyline, so it is in fact one ramification of this very thread's theme, as asked for by Trutino.


Luca Faction needed :D

:) :D

WinespringBrother
11-19-2009, 10:35 AM
Verin's revelations certainly put her conversation with Egwene in her study more into context. After they returned from Falme (in TDR), Verin gave Egwene the sleepweaver along with a lecture on TAR, the 3 constants and a strange note about Baal'zamon. I think that conversation may contain some useful clues for Rand to defeating the Dark One.

Originally posted by RJ
Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
Verin stared at her as if she were deliberately being dense. "Nothing? Of course it has something to do with it, child. The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod, "the Unseen World." Perhaps "the World of Dreams" is a better translation. Many people - ordinary folk who could not think of channeling - sometimes glimpse Tel'aran'rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child - a true Dreamer - can enter Tel'aran'rhiod."

I also wonder now at her true purpose for going to the 2 Rivers. Was she there just to thwart Luc after hearing of his plans? Did she stay just to keep Perrin's fat out of the fire? Or maybe she wanted to study how much ta'veren influence can in and of itself disrupt the machinations of the Shadow.

Ishara
11-19-2009, 12:26 PM
I've always wondered how connected that scar she got in TAR and her big mistake (aka getting sucked into the BA) were. maybe not at all, but re-reading with Verin at the front of my mind has been amazing.

Terez
11-19-2009, 01:07 PM
Yeah, without Verin, they might not have ever known who Ishamael was. Rand didn't start remembering Forsaken until after their last fight.

isamu237
11-19-2009, 01:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm not sure I quite follow the logic. The syllogism you're constructing here is this:

Verin writes many books
Verin writes, in particular, ONE cipher which decodes ONE book.
.....?
Thus Verin's ONE cipher decodes ALL of Verin's books.

I feel like there's a missing piece to the logic there. No offense.

The missing piece is your faulty assumption of "ONE" cipher for only "ONE" book. All we know for sure is that it is A cipher that does in fact unlock that particular book. We have no specific evidence one way or the other indicating if that same cipher unlocks all Verin's other books. However, from her point of view in the beginning of PoD it seems fairly clear that Verin has A cipher that is used in all her work. Thus we can reasonably assume the cipher Verin gave Egy is that same cipher and will in fact unlock all her other books.
The point being, if we are expecting more revelations and surprises thanks to Verin, there is a lot there.

fdsaf3
11-19-2009, 01:41 PM
The missing piece is your faulty assumption of "ONE" cipher for only "ONE" book. All we know for sure is that it is A cipher that does in fact unlock that particular book. We have no specific evidence one way or the other indicating if that same cipher unlocks all Verin's other books. However, from her point of view in the beginning of PoD it seems fairly clear that Verin has A cipher that is used in all her work. Thus we can reasonably assume the cipher Verin gave Egy is that same cipher and will in fact unlock all her other books.
The point being, if we are expecting more revelations and surprises thanks to Verin, there is a lot there.

Can you or someone post Verin's POV from PoD? I don't have my book in front of me, or else I'd look myself.

And while I think that you might possibly be correct, I have to point out that saying "there's no evidence, so I'm going to assume I'm right" is not logically sound. "Lack of evidence" and all of that.

isamu237
11-19-2009, 01:45 PM
Something in that conversation prompted Verin to begin her elaborate betrayal of the Shadow. I think it has to do with Rand's revelation of the Finn's answer, so there may be a clue there to figure out what her other notes may reveal and whom she gave them to.

Very good post Yuri, but I think you may have missed the forest for the trees. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier, but what was the last thing we saw Verin do? Bring down the BA and clean up the WT.
We know that the BT is going to be "rent in fire and blood" so perhaps the big (or at least one of the big) impacts of Verin's revelations is to get the ball rolling on cleaning up the BT. Given her intellect and purposeful investigation, it is not beyond belief that she has discovered the Shadow leads the BT.

Finally a note on motives. I think it is important to keep in mind that while Verin was BA, she was NOT a Darkfriend. She found herself in a position wherein she was faced with a decision of join the BA or die; no doubt from investigating the BA on her own. After that, she did what she had to do to survive; yet she never stopped working for the Light. In tGH and tDR, while Moiraine and Siuan are trying to Rand dance on WT strings, Verin is pushing him where he needs to go in order to fulfill prophecy. Later, she continues to do so; going so far as to set him strongly against all AS so that he can be his own man and follow the Pattern rather than know-it-all AS and their schemes.

isamu237
11-19-2009, 01:50 PM
Can you or someone post Verin's POV from PoD? I don't have my book in front of me, or else I'd look myself.

The Path of Daggers, Prologue: Deceptive Appearances, PB p19
"One day she would have to write out the cipher she used in her notebooks--a lifetime's worth of them filled cupboards and chests in her rooms above the White Tower library--one day, but she hoped not soon."

The implication being she used the same cipher for all her work.

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 02:25 PM
Very good post Yuri, but I think you may have missed the forest for the trees. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier, but what was the last thing we saw Verin do? Bring down the BA and clean up the WT.
We know that the BT is going to be "rent in fire and blood" so perhaps the big (or at least one of the big) impacts of Verin's revelations is to get the ball rolling on cleaning up the BT. Given her intellect and purposeful investigation, it is not beyond belief that she has discovered the Shadow leads the BT.

I see forests and trees just fine, thank you.

You may have to work on reading what people actually wrote, however. I quoted Verin herself--where she explicitly states that the BT issue, at least from her perspective, will have to wait.

Besides, Logain already has enough suspicions to "get the ball rolling" on the BT, not to mention whatever investigation the WT will do following the disappearance of all their delegates. Among the many repercussions that Verin's letters will have, I think the BT is rather low on the list.

Enigma
11-19-2009, 04:16 PM
Besides, Logain already has enough suspicions to "get the ball rolling" on the BT, not to mention whatever investigation the WT will do following the disappearance of all their delegates. Among the many repercussions that Verin's letters will have, I think the BT is rather low on the list.

Logain and Rand don't like Taim and Logain thinks he is up to no good. That is not the same as knowing that he is a darkfriend with a darkfriend recruiting program going on right in the BT.

If Verin gave Logain/Rand proof that he was a darkfriend and explained what he was doing at the BT then Taim would jump up the list of things to do.

Yuri33
11-19-2009, 07:22 PM
Yet in KoD she rather abruptly left Rand and Logain sitting there, and the note she left for Rand didn't come close to anything related to the BT. And again, she herself stated that the issues around Taim will "have to wait for the Last Battle."

Later, we see her with Mat, where she admits that her first destination was the WT. Which is strange, since that seemed like it was always going to be the last stop on her betrayal of the Shadow given what she did there after seeing Egwene. Once she secured her bargain with Mat, she was free of his ta'veren pull, and by her own words she would have most likely gone to the WT next.

However, she still had all those letters in her satchel--strange. The only conclusion I can reach right now is that she originally intended to only go to the WT and see Egwene, but with her realization that the Pattern wanted more of her, she decided to prepare a series of letters and expanded her original plan. Or, she intended to first go to the WT and free herself of the BA oaths, then see all those other people she had letters for.

Either way, she passed up a prime opportunity to set things in motion for the BT, either in person or by letter, to go to the WT and get things rolling there. I conclude the BT was low on Verin's list.

Trutino
11-19-2009, 09:18 PM
In light of Verin's revelations, I was reminded of this passage from tGH, Ch. 7:

"'It is unlikely,' Verin began, 'that anyone who hasn't studied the old records thoroughly would notice anything except that you were behaving oddly. Forgive me, Mother. I was nearly twenty years ago, with Tar Valon beseiged, that I had my first clue, and that was only..."

Moiraine thinks: Light help me, Verin, how I loved you for those sweetcakes, and for your bosom to weep on. But I must do what I must do. I will. I must.

She obviously heard about the Dragon's birth from the BA and I wonder if she carried out any Black Ajah orders in the "vileness" after the Aiel War. Also, not to get off topic, I just looked up that part in PoD when Cads mentions the vileness and Annoura freaks out. Will we finally find out about Annoura? She's not on Terez' master list of Verin-revealed BA but I don't think she ever met Egwene so who knows?

GonzoTheGreat
11-20-2009, 04:10 AM
Very good post Yuri, but I think you may have missed the forest for the trees. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier, but what was the last thing we saw Verin do? Bring down the BA and clean up the WT.
We know that the BT is going to be "rent in fire and blood" so perhaps the big (or at least one of the big) impacts of Verin's revelations is to get the ball rolling on cleaning up the BT. Given her intellect and purposeful investigation, it is not beyond belief that she has discovered the Shadow leads the BT.But the only evidence to support that is that right at the moment of Verin's strike against the BA, something very disruptive also happened at the BT. Something which apparently caught up a bunch of AS who had gone there, so that they hadn't reported back when they should have.

Now, what could that be?

a dragonburned fool
11-20-2009, 05:30 AM
Since Verin should know Mat's character, it's surprising for her to believe he will agree to make a blind promise. And we know for one problem Verin has about how to reveal stuff - she has to either find the oath rod or to have a hour of her death first. We know that Verin's hour is timed surprisingly well into those 30 days. We know also that the ten days were still before her planned hour, so if Mat opens the letter, she still wouldn't be able to reveal much. But once she has her hour, she can send him her true revelations. If he is in a pre-arranged place waiting for her, then he might be found by her or by her emissary (Thomas, whos family might be in Caemlyn?). I wouldn't be surprised if the letter would contain nothing else but asking him to wait for 40 more days.

I quoted Verin herself--where she explicitly states that the BT issue, at least from her perspective, will have to wait.[quote]Before tGS ased on this I also threw away the Taim option, because I assumed Verin believed Taim could wait. Now we cannot be sure whether she believed it. She might decide that it would be not good for Rand to deal with Taim directly, but rather arrange it to be dealt otherwise. Who knows, she might even have the convoluted plan (needed to dance around her dark oaths) by saying "believe only Cadsuane", i.e. excluding even herself form the number to be believed to draw Rand's attention on the likeliness that the assumption Taim might wait could be false. Now this reaction of Verun to the discussion about Taim might be understood both ways. I must admit however that the classsic interpretation, that Verin believed that Taim might wait, sounds still quite likely. It's just not the only viable interpretation for now.

For now the BT connection doesn't look especially decisive to trigger verin's departure, but no of the other options looks more decisive actually.

[quote=Yuri33]Later, we see her with Mat, where she admits that her first destination was the WT. Which is strange, since that seemed like it was always going to be the last stop on her betrayal of the Shadow given what she did there after seeing Egwene.She hoped to find the Oath Rod and not have necessarily to die as she did. Such releasing herself would make her times more effective in revealing all kinds of dark secrets outside the Tower. Without access to the Oath Rod her options are quite limited.

Also, not to get off topic, I just looked up that part in PoD when Cads mentions the vileness and Annoura freaks out. Will we finally find out about Annoura? She's not on Terez' master list of Verin-revealed BA but I don't think she ever met Egwene so who knows?Being involved in the "vileness" doesn't mean being Black Ajah. At the time Cadsuane mentions all the three Sitters for the Reds were heavily punished for something involving the whole Red Ajah. It was quite a great scandal and quite possibly Annoura would think about it. One of these sitters is Tovaine Gazal, whom we know to be not Red, because Alviarin took care to include no black in her group. Another exiled sitter is Tsutama, who seems to be still in the Tower and resworn and who if revealed black in Verin's list would be mentioned because her importance as a former sitter. Tovaine mentions Elaida's heavy involvement too, while Elaida remained unpunished. The "vileness" is apparently started by the Black but they apparently manneuvered many other sisters into it.

Spasmodean
11-20-2009, 06:36 AM
But the only evidence to support that is that right at the moment of Verin's strike against the BA, something very disruptive also happened at the BT. Something which apparently caught up a bunch of AS who had gone there, so that they hadn't reported back when they should have.

Now, what could that be?

What happened that was disruptive? Pevara and Tarna's visit? Seemed more sinister than disruptive to me how it was left.

GonzoTheGreat
11-20-2009, 07:16 AM
What happened that was disruptive? Pevara and Tarna's visit? Seemed more sinister than disruptive to me how it was left.We don't know what happened. That suggests that, whatever it was, was very disruptive indeed.
Lelaine must have been frustrated by Romanda's change of temperament. The Yellow waited beside the road ahead, as if on cue. She wore a dress after the color of her Ajah, hair back in a stately bun. She curtsied as Egwene reached her and barely spared a glance for Lelaine before falling into position on Egwene's right, away from Lelaine. "Mother," Romanda said, "I have made the inquires you requested.
There has been no contact with those sent to the Black Tower. Not a whisper."
"Does this strike you as odd?" Egwene asked.
"Yes, Mother. With Traveling they should have been there and back by now. They should have at least sent word. This silence is disturbing."

Spasmodean
11-20-2009, 09:43 AM
We don't know what happened. That suggests that, whatever it was, was very disruptive indeed.
The quote calls the silence from the embassy disturbing.
Again, sinister overtones but the word disruptive implies an explosion of some sort which we have no evidence of.

Yet.

kasper11
11-20-2009, 09:59 AM
Since Verin should know Mat's character, it's surprising for her to believe he will agree to make a blind promise. And we know for one problem Verin has about how to reveal stuff - she has to either find the oath rod or to have a hour of her death first. We know that Verin's hour is timed surprisingly well into those 30 days. We know also that the ten days were still before her planned hour, so if Mat opens the letter, she still wouldn't be able to reveal much. But once she has her hour, she can send him her true revelations. If he is in a pre-arranged place waiting for her, then he might be found by her or by her emissary (Thomas, whos family might be in Caemlyn?). I wouldn't be surprised if the letter would contain nothing else but asking him to wait for 40 more days.


I think you are misreading Mat's character and Verin's actions.

1) Mat always keeps his word. If he makes a promise he will keep it. This is explicitly stated in LOC a few times. So Verin knew that he would wait or open the letter.
2) Mat is extremely impatient. Verin knew this, and that is why she said to wait for 30 days or open the letter in 10. Mat will not be able to resist opening the letter.
3) I don't know why you think the hour she had would not be within the 10 days. She could Travel, so she could have seen anyone else she needed to, and get to Tar Valon within 10 days. Plus, the 30 days were never part of her plan. Her original offer was you go to Caemlyn and open the letter in 10 days. It was only when Mat refused that Verin added the wait for 30 days part. This is in order to get Mat, who hates sitting still, to open the letter. Verin was dead within 10 days of handing Mat the letter.

Spasmodean
11-20-2009, 10:05 AM
That's how I read it too kasper, and remember she originally asked him to wait for 50 days.
She is manipulating him while making him think it's his decision. Classic Aes Sedai behaviour.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-20-2009, 10:13 AM
Without my book with me, this is difficult, but I suddenly recalled Sheriam's reaction upon being proven BA. She asks Egwene who spilled the beans, and upon hearing it was Verin--seems suprised. I remember my gut reaction at the time being...oh, Verin has done some VERY, VERY bad things if Sheriam is suprised she was a double agent. I was curious as to others reactions?

Part of this thread got me thinking...with the 3 person cells within the Black, did Sheriam KNOW Verin was Black, were they in a cell together? Or was Sheriam actually suprised that Verin was black? Was I wrong all along in my gut reaction, and Sheriam did not know?

I also have always wondered who the Supreme Council BA were at the hooded meetings...we know Alviarin and Galina, but was it ever stated who the second and third of that trinity knowing Liandrin's role was? My thoughts here go to Verin's "mistake" in her seventy year timeline, and the comments by Galina regarding her being Aes Sedai for 90 years, and head of the Red Ajah for 20. Did Verin regret being part of Galina's rise to power in the Red?

The bigger question, was Verin part of the Supreme Council? My guess is yes, as she tells Egwene that her counterparts (my word without checking) were not pleased when she had to give "the girls" the Black Ajah information at the start of their hunt. If Verin was just part of a regular ol' cell of 3, how would she know who was upset?

I am actually quite excited by the Verin Mysteries yet to unfold. Initially, when reading her chapter, I thought, well, we have our answers on the Mystery of Verin. But I now realize we have only hit the tip of the iceberg.


TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
She had been Aes Sedai fewer than, ninety years, her long black hair untouched as yet by gray, but for nearly twenty of those she had been head of the Red Ajah—called the Highest by other Red sisters, in private; considered by other Reds equal to the Amyrlin Seat—and for all but five of the years she had worn the shawl, she had been of the Black Ajah, in truth. Not to the exclusion of her duties as a Red, but superior to them. Her place on the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah was next to that of Alviarin herself, and she was one of only three who knew the name of the woman who led their hooded meetings. She could speak any name in those meetings—a king's—and know that name belonged to the dead. It had happened, with a king and with a queen. She had helped to break two Amyrlins, twice helped turn the most powerful woman in the world into a squealing wretch eager to tell all she knew, had helped make it seem that one of those had died in her sleep and had seen the other deposed and stilled. Such things were a duty, like the need to exterminate men with the ability to channel, not actions she took pleasure in beyond that of tasks well done, but she had enjoyed leading the circle that stilled Siuan Sanche. Surely all those things meant that Galina Casban was herself among the mightiest of the world, among the most powerful. Surely they did. They must.


Edited for Black Ajah Head showing Alviarin, not Liandrin :)

Anaiya Sedai
11-20-2009, 10:41 AM
Part of this thread got me thinking...with the 3 person cells within the Black, did Sheriam KNOW Verin was Black, were they in a cell together? Or was Sheriam actually suprised that Verin was black? Was I wrong all along in my gut reaction, and Sheriam did not know?

The way I read it, Sheriam didn't know Verin was BA. But then, in my understanding, everything Verin did was done for the greater good in the grand scheme of things, and also for her studies.. and that she planned from the beginning to, at one point in the future, betray the shadow. Both of which might, of course, be wrong.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-20-2009, 10:47 AM
The way I read it, Sheriam didn't know Verin was BA. But then, in my understanding, everything Verin did was done for the greater good in the grand scheme of things, and also for her studies.. and that she planned from the beginning to, at one point in the future, betray the shadow. Both of which might, of course, be wrong.

I totally agree with you Anaiya, she joined it with the intent of studying it to leave behind her records. And that intent would REQUIRE, based on the oaths she talks about, a betrayal before her death.

Ishara
11-20-2009, 10:59 AM
I am actually quite excited by the Verin Mysteries yet to unfold. Initially, when reading her chapter, I thought, well, we have our answers on the Mystery of Verin. But I now realize we have only hit the tip of the iceberg. I Know! I'm doing a re-read and am on tDR right now, and everything involving Verin has me on edge. It's like I'm reading them for the first time, which I haven't felt in years if I'm honest.

I'd like to think that Sheriam didn't know that Verin was BA - not the other option. But then, we know that Verin had to have done awful things in her 70 years with the BA. It's a given. I can't help but hope that they weren't really, really awful though. You know?

Spasmodean
11-20-2009, 11:07 AM
I read it as Sheriam being the head honcho of the entire BA. Which would make the top 3 Sheriam, Alviarin and Galina.

So Sheriam did know that Verin was BA, but perhaps Verin's actions or obedience to orders she had been given in the past had made Sheriam believe that Verin was not only loyal to the black but willing to carry out whatever was asked of her.

The "never expected it of her" statement reinforces this in my head.

Edit: As an off topic comment - I would personally LOVE to hear the account of how Verin was forced to join the BA. I doubt I'm the only one.

Davian93
11-20-2009, 01:19 PM
I read it as Sheriam being the head honcho of the entire BA. Which would make the top 3 Sheriam, Alviarin and Galina.

I think all 4 of them were on the Black Ajah Supreme Council of 13...it would make sense as all 4 are relatively strong channelers and Verin getting it if only due to her age.

Yuri33
11-20-2009, 01:48 PM
2) Mat is extremely impatient. Verin knew this, and that is why she said to wait for 30 days or open the letter in 10. Mat will not be able to resist opening the letter.

BS has told us that Mat stays in Caemylin for 30 days. Mat will not break his word, so if he opens the letter, it will be on day 10 (or later, but that would be strange). That means that the letter requires him to stay for at least another 20 days (lame), or Mat chooses to stay in Caemylin for another 20 days, and endure Elayne's insufferable sniffs voluntarily (also lame). The scenario is possible, but there's got to be an alternative reason Mat stays in town so long (building Dragons?). I doubt it takes 20 extra days to gather intellegence for the ToG.

Otherwise, the other possible conclusion is that he doesn't open the letter. I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other.

On a side note, it would be great if Elayne finally resolves her massive amounts of toh with Mat. It's been a long time--I'm sure there's interest now...

I read it as Sheriam being the head honcho of the entire BA. Which would make the top 3 Sheriam, Alviarin and Galina.

Sheriam could be in Alvairin's heart, but I doubt it, considering she's not "whole-heartedly" BA. She got into it for ambition, but her PoV in TGS clearly shows she's happy to sit it out for a while--not exactly the kind of BA sister that would climb the ranks.

Alvairin is the head honcho, and only Alvairin knows the names of every single BA member. We can't be sure who other than Alvairin knows Verin is BA.

To me, Verin sounds like she climbed the ranks by seniority alone, but that she wasn't really a central member. I get the feeling that Verin earned a reputation among the BA as being too absent-minded and ineffective to be handed serious assignments. That was her form of passive resistance--a way to prevent her soul from being corrupted. That way she can stay a member, but be largely ignored--exactly where a spy would like to be.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-20-2009, 01:57 PM
I read it as Sheriam being the head honcho of the entire BA. Which would make the top 3 Sheriam, Alviarin and Galina.


I realized I referenced Liandrin in my earlier post, when I meant Alviarin (I have since edited to correct). We KNOW Alviarin is the "head" of the BA, that is clearly defined throughout the books, and supported by Galina's comments.

She indicates only 3 people know the true identity of the woman who led their hooded meetings.

1. Galina
2. I am now assuming Verin is one
3. ??? Nothing is clear on Sheriam.

I am puzzled by this. Weren't we led to believe earlier in the books that Alviarin had been shown or discovered Traveling, due to her quick trips and disappearances from the Tower? If so, wouldn't she visited the Rebel Tower Keeper (Sheriam) if they were in the same heart cell and/or stood high on the Supreme Council? I realize Alviarin was/is a power hungry, selfish bitch and wouldn't necessarily share info. But her control could have grown if she had been able to appear/disappear at will to the BA in the rebel camp. It does not seem to fit that Sheriam shared traveling with Alviarin. If she had, wouldn't the two have worked together to fix (or further encourage) the break between the two groups? Not to mention Tel'aran'rhiod.

Sheriam as a top person in the Council doesn't seem to fit for me.

But then, none of it makes sense as all the BA supposedly report EVERYTHING they know to the Supreme Council. So were none of these women in the Rebel Camp?

Davian93
11-20-2009, 02:12 PM
I am puzzled by this. Weren't we led to believe earlier in the books that Alviarin had been shown or discovered Traveling, due to her quick trips and disappearances from the Tower? If so, wouldn't she visited the Rebel Tower Keeper (Sheriam) if they were in the same heart cell and/or stood high on the Supreme Council? I realize Alviarin was/is a power hungry, selfish bitch and wouldn't necessarily share info. But her control could have grown if she had been able to appear/disappear at will to the BA in the rebel camp. It does not seem to fit that Sheriam shared traveling with Alviarin. If she had, wouldn't the two have worked together to fix (or further encourage) the break between the two groups? Not to mention Tel'aran'rhiod.

Mesaana taught Alviarin how to Travel.

Spasmodean
11-22-2009, 06:06 PM
Reread the Verin Death Scene and she specifically mentions to Egwene that she has unfinished business that she has left ticking over with others to finish if she wasn't able to return.

So Mat's note is one of those things. I think there's more.

Edit: Perhaps a lot more,
The one Aes Sedai that spent an AWFUL lot of time with Verin ended up bonding Rand. Perhaps Alanna still has some role to play in Verin's schemes.

Ishara
11-24-2009, 02:51 PM
On a side note, it would be great if Elayne finally resolves her massive amounts of toh with Mat. It's been a long time--I'm sure there's interest now...

I've been mulling that over as well (just finished tDR again). Im not sure though. She's all honourable and good when Aviendha is around to watch her, but now that Aviendha's gone...maybe she won't live up to it. After all, as far as she's concerned she settled her issues with Mat by apologizing to him in Altara, no?

Yuri33
11-24-2009, 05:44 PM
Yeah but he goes and saves her again from the gholam. And they leave him behind looking for Olver.