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View Full Version : Revisiting Lanfear, Asmodean and the Finns


Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Have the Finns themselves ever been proposed as Asmodean's killer? Now we know that the Finns have great stores of Ter'angreal and Angreal. Isn't it possible that Lanfear goes through the doorway, loses her angreal, burns out. She gets her three wishes, but doesn't ask for her life or leavetaking, maybe even knowingly avoids asking for them and instead asks for something else (this is unnecessary but I thought I'd include it). One of those requests is Asmodean's death. Using a gateway ter'angreal, they open a gateway and using a balefire ter'angreal they balefire Asmodean all in the name of living up the agreements of their pact.

Yuri33
11-23-2009, 02:30 PM
The evidence says the Finns give *angreal to others--there's no evidence they ever use them themselves.

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 02:35 PM
I see no reason they couldn't use Ter'angreal they possess, in fact, it would be good to frame a question around the Finns entering this world, as others enter their parallel world.

Terez
11-23-2009, 02:42 PM
Brandon seemed to suggest that they could use them.

amazinglarry
11-23-2009, 02:49 PM
But there's no reason that Asmodean would've said "You? No!" upon walking into the pantry and seeing a gateway to Finnland with some random Finn on the other side aiming a balefire ter'angreal at him. In order for this theory to work, the Finns would've had to send someone that Asmodean recognized and was surprised to see to do the deed.

amazinglarry

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 02:52 PM
I think it is a small assumption that Asmodean would recognize the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. You, as it pertains to one of the Finns and his surprise and shock at finding one there, especially as he knows Lanfear went into their world, doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You? (a Finn, what would...oh f*** Lanfear...)
No!

Balefire by means of Ter'angreal...would resolve the issue of no one sensing someone channeling the One Power too...or does it...can you sense a Ter'angreal shooting balefire?

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2009, 02:53 PM
I thought that there was an RJ quote somewhere saying that the finns do not come out of their own world very far or very long; that they had to hurry when they hung Mat on the tree.

Of course, this quote can't be found in the database, but that won't stop me from mentioning it.

Terez
11-23-2009, 02:55 PM
...this quote can't be found in the database....
Look again. ;)

kcf
11-23-2009, 02:55 PM
well, in light of recent revelations - I think that if this was how Asmodean died, it would have surprised Brandon, and we know he wasn't surprised.

And I don't buy the 'guns don't kill people, I kill people' argument that Lanfear is the real killer because she wished for it done and the finns were just carrying out her wishes.

I also don't think you can get around the recognition factor - if Asmodean randomly bumped into a gateway to finnland, I don't think the exclamation would be 'You'. I think it would be much closer to WTF?

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 03:02 PM
Can't be out in this world for very long, although not that such a quote would affect this idea because very long is subjective and undefined.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2009, 03:03 PM
Look again. ;)

Well, yes, there is:
Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfinn. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.Which wouldn't be a problem if they just managed to scare Asmodean so badly that he had a heart attack. Though getting rid of the body might be a secondary problem, I admit. Perhaps Bela helped with that.

Terez
11-23-2009, 03:04 PM
Can't be out in this world for very long, although not that such a quote would affect this idea because very long is subjective and undefined.
I think that Gonzo was taking our speculations on the seeming contradiction between RJ's words and what happened with Mat, and attributing that speculation to RJ.

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 03:07 PM
well, in light of recent revelations - I think that if this was how Asmodean died, it would have surprised Brandon, and we know he wasn't surprised.

Do you have the quote where Brandon said he wasn't surprised? (I don't recall reading it so I'm curious as to how it is phrased). Second, we also know Brandon didn't really care about this answer, so his lack of surprise could easily have had as much to do with his apathy towards its answer than it had to do with the identity of the actual killer. Plus, any notion of "brandon would have been surprised" assumes Brandon never considered the Finns, which we do not know.

I also don't think you can get around the recognition factor - if Asmodean randomly bumped into a gateway to finnland, I don't think the exclamation would be 'You'. I think it would be much closer to WTF?

I'm not imagining that Asmodean bumped into a gateway. I'm imagining that the Finns knew where Asmodean would be and went to him and killed him. A Finn Assassin - heh. :)

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 03:11 PM
Jordan's answer is far from definitive. They killed Mat (or tried), at the very least hung him. How is hanging someone not "affecting the world" according to how you are interpreting Jordan's quote?

It is apparent from the rest of his answer that he is talking about changing the world to fit the request, like making someone rich, by somehow changing the World to make this person King. They can leave their world. They can apparently hang people outside of their world. And we know that they appear to kill people that come to their world. The idea that they can leave their world and appear or attempt to kill someone in this world is built into the books already.

kcf
11-23-2009, 03:18 PM
Q: "Were you surprised when you found out who killed Asmodean?"

A: "Brandon had been a fan for a long time before he got to find out who killed Asmodean. He said that he had heard arguments for every possible suspect, including the really crazy ones like Tam. So when he found out the real answer, he wasn’t shocked. His reaction was more 'Oh, those guys were right'. He said that the clues are there, but he never would have figured it out himself."

Now, it's far from difinitive - but I've been following the Asmodean thing for over a decade and I've seen pretty much all the theories. If it is the finns - I'll be surprised. Anyway, his answer hints that there is something of a 'faction' that has the answer right - as far as I know, there isn't a big group out there advocating for the finns.


And still - gateway, random assassin, whatever. If you bump into a random finn - You! is not the exclamation. It's WTF!

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 03:31 PM
Now, it's far from difinitive - but I've been following the Asmodean thing for over a decade and I've seen pretty much all the theories. If it is the finns - I'll be surprised. Anyway, his answer hints that there is something of a 'faction' that has the answer right - as far as I know, there isn't a big group out there advocating for the finns.

His answer is - I've heard every possible suspect even crazy crap, and so I wasn't surprised - which doesn't detract from the Finns. However, 'Oh, those guys were right' does significantly put the Finns in doubt. It doesn't count them out, but I don't believe I have ever seen any significant debate on the Finns because we lacked more information to discuss them plausibly.

And still - gateway, random assassin, whatever. If you bump into a random finn - You! is not the exclamation. It's WTF!

You? to me can easily suggest surprise on Asmodean's part. Knowing of the Finns and that they don't leave their world randomly to go hanging around Palaces behind doors, I don't see any problem with Asmodean running into one of the Finns and being surprised and concerned for his life. I imagine the Finns could have a variety of ter'angreal that they could wear that could create a small Stedding affect to protect themselves, so Asmodean knew he had no where to go and could not defend himself if he tried.

Yuri33
11-23-2009, 03:35 PM
Brandon seemed to suggest that they could use them.

That's not how I interpret his comments.

amazinglarry
11-23-2009, 03:35 PM
And still - gateway, random assassin, whatever. If you bump into a random finn - You! is not the exclamation. It's WTF!

Do we even know whether Asmodean is aware of the Eelfinn? I guess it's likely he's heard about them (he's from the AoL after all) but does anyone have a quote that proves it? And even if he's aware of them, that doesn't mean he would necessarily recognize a random Eelfinn that appeared in the pantry.

Bottom line is, I think the most plausible version of the "Lanfear killed Asmo via an Eelfinn wish" theory is the version in which Lanfear herself was sent as the assassin, before she dies and is reincarnated as Cyndane. It just makes the most sense with the "You? No!" response from Asmo. Invoking an Eelfinn assassin seems like an unnecessary detail to me.

amazinglarry

jason wolfbrother
11-23-2009, 03:37 PM
Balefire by means of Ter'angreal...would resolve the issue of no one sensing someone channeling the One Power too...or does it...can you sense a Ter'angreal shooting balefire?

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 38 - Hidden Faces
"Balefire." Asne looked around, dark tilted eyes challenging. "Balefire will destroy even one of the Forsaken. And we have the means to produce it." One of the ter'angreal they had removed from the Tower, a fluted black rod a pace long, had that use. None of them knew why they had been ordered to take it, not even Liandrin herself. Too many of the ter'angreal were like that, taken because they had been told to, with no reasons given, but some orders had to be obeyed. Liandrin wished they had been able to secure even one angreal, Jeaine gave a sharp sniff. "If any of us could control it. Or have you forgotten that the one test we dared nearly killed me? And burned a hole through both sides of the ship before I could stop it? Fine good it would have done us to drown before reaching Tanchico."

and yes you can sense it. maybe not enough to know it is balefire but you can sense the effects.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 55 - Into the Deep
"But what of you?" Elayne went on with a frown. "You were supposed to be here half an hour ago. Did you cause all of this? I felt two women channeling enough of the Power to shake the palace down, and then a bit later someone did try to shake it down. I thought it must be you. I had to restrain Egeanin from going to find you."

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 03:47 PM
Bottom line is, I think the most plausible version of the "Lanfear killed Asmo via an Eelfinn wish" theory is the version in which Lanfear herself was sent as the assassin, before she dies and is reincarnated as Cyndane. It just makes the most sense with the "You? No!" response from Asmo. Invoking an Eelfinn assassin seems like an unnecessary detail to me.

I agree - it's just a fun last kick is all :)

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2009, 03:53 PM
"Of course you are." Studying him, she nodded slowly to herself. That cool composure returned. "Of course. Asmodean has been telling you things, about the War of Power, and me. He lies. You did love me. Until that yellow-haired trollop Ilyena stole you." For an instant, rage made her face a contorted mask; he did not think she was even aware of it. "Did you know that Asmodean severed his own mother? What they call stilling, now. Severed her, and let Myrddraal drag her away screaming. Can you trust a man like that?"Isn't that a perfect suspect?
She had motive, he would definitely have recognised her, he would have been surprised to see her in a pantry in the palace in Caemlyn, and very few people have mentioned her in this context, as far as I know.

kcf
11-23-2009, 03:57 PM
So, now we think it's Asmodean's mother?

Now that would be something!

Belazamon
11-23-2009, 04:19 PM
So, now we think it's Asmodean's mother?

Now that would be something!
It would certainly explain both the recognition and the shock.

Marie Curie 7
11-23-2009, 04:27 PM
Have the Finns themselves ever been proposed as Asmodean's killer? Now we know that the Finns have great stores of Ter'angreal and Angreal. Isn't it possible that Lanfear goes through the doorway, loses her angreal, burns out. She gets her three wishes, but doesn't ask for her life or leavetaking, maybe even knowingly avoids asking for them and instead asks for something else (this is unnecessary but I thought I'd include it). One of those requests is Asmodean's death. Using a gateway ter'angreal, they open a gateway and using a balefire ter'angreal they balefire Asmodean all in the name of living up the agreements of their pact.

We didn't really know before that the Finns had a big store of ter'angreal, though. So I don't see how their usage of a ter'angreal to balefire Asmodean could in any way be considered "obvious". :)

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-23-2009, 04:37 PM
Isn't it possible that Lanfear goes through the doorway, loses her angreal, burns out. She gets her three wishes, but doesn't ask for her life or leavetaking, maybe even knowingly avoids asking for them and instead asks for something else (this is unnecessary but I thought I'd include it). One of those requests is Asmodean's death. Using a gateway ter'angreal, they open a gateway and using a balefire ter'angreal they balefire Asmodean all in the name of living up the agreements of their pact.

I am gonna veto this based only on the three wishes. I still strongly support < insert correct name here> whomever came up with the "Lanfear is enhanced theory" based on the idea she has already had 3 wishes...to be the strongest female channeler, to be the most beautiful woman envied by all others and...well I don't recall the third. A second trip to 'finnland, even if unintentional, even if resurrected as Cyndane, would not allow three new wishes.

Matoyak
11-23-2009, 04:38 PM
New hypothesis: "Casual Reader" is actually one of RJ's pseudonyms. Ergo, it totally was "obvious to the Casual Reader". ;) (and not necessarily to anyone else)

fdsaf3
11-23-2009, 05:38 PM
Maybe I don't understand this whole Traveling issue yet, but my understanding (based on the thread I started a while back about Shadowspawn Traveling) is that they can't Travel because they are artificial constructs to the Pattern. Long question short: are the 'Finn similarly considered "constructs"? If not, Traveling would kill them.

Devlin1969
11-23-2009, 05:58 PM
Maybe I don't understand this whole Traveling issue yet, but my understanding (based on the thread I started a while back about Shadowspawn Traveling) is that they can't Travel because they are artificial constructs to the Pattern. Long question short: are the 'Finn similarly considered "constructs"? If not, Traveling would kill them.

The Finn are not considered "constructs" in the way you are thinking. They are not made, they are sentient beings, or a different race of beings, that live in another dimension.

Tamyrlin
11-23-2009, 06:04 PM
If you look up Finns in the Q&A database you'll notice a series of questions we asked Jordan to clarify these points in 05.

WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of 'Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Have the 'Finns existed as long as the Wheel?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are the 'Finns from human stock?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?
Jordan: No.

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?
Jordan: Yes.
Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?
Jordan: No, they are different.
Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?
Jordan: Possibly.
Tamyrlin: Did Lanfear get the opportunity to ask the 'Finns, to make a wish, after going through the doorway with Moiraine?
Jordan: Read and find out.
Tamyrlin: Okay, well, then did Moiraine get the opportunity to make a wish?
Jordan: Read and find out.

Matoyak
11-23-2009, 06:12 PM
WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?
Jordan: No.Hmmm...as an aside, any possibility he fudged on the answer due to being asked two questions in one? As in, since he only gave one answer, which question did he answer? (Not saying I think he would do that, but just asking if it is a possibility)

Belazamon
11-23-2009, 11:27 PM
Hmmm...as an aside, any possibility he fudged on the answer due to being asked two questions in one? As in, since he only gave one answer, which question did he answer? (Not saying I think he would do that, but just asking if it is a possibility)
No. :p

nameless
11-25-2009, 11:00 PM
Balefire wasn't the murder weapon. RJ said resurrection was impossible because of the combination of how and where he was killed. If it had been balefire he would have said how and when.

DahLliA
11-26-2009, 04:47 AM
is there any way to word a wish to kill rand/ltt such that the finns could stick her in a pantry and promtly drag Lanfear back to finnland and kill her?

like. "I want to kill the bastard!" and boom pantry and hey, there's asmo getting some wine instead.