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isamu237
11-24-2009, 05:20 PM
So this is all, pure, wild, unfounded, lunatic speculation; but when has that ever stopped any of us?
I'm on my second read of TGS. I read it as soon as it came out in a frenzied, emotional hurry; then a full series reread. I'm sure that Thesis will just write itself. Anywho...
Where the hell is Demandred? I think that's gotten to the point where I'm more bothered by that than Who Killed Asmo; at least with that I can build a case, present evidence and make a logical argument. Do we have any solid evidence of Dem? For the longest time I assumed Dem was in charge of the BT; though even before WH I leaned more towards indirect control. I still think that seems the most likely, especially given what that would mean with the Mesy, Semi, Dem alliance. But then I had a random, crazy thought.
Grany is certain--in the TGS prologue--that Dem would have an army as that is his way and his ability. But all the Randland forces and leaders seem to be accounted for; plus RJ's assertion as of COT that we had not seen Dem's alter-ego/Third Age persona on screen yet.
Following that assertion, in KoD, it is confirmed Shadowspawn can't Travel. So if Dem is gathering an army to come storming in on TG, it can't be an army of Trollocs.
We find out in TGS Dem's "rule is secure."
Now the crazy part: Earlier we found out that even Shara is in chaos and KoD shows us that some are even fleeing.
Could Dem have set himself up there? It seems far from the action, but he could still keep in touch and effect Randland through Semi, Mesy and Taim. Also, it would allow him to gather an army of men and channelers to come pouring out of Gateways at a most inopportune time.
Finally, could this fit BS's hint of a little thing being a big thing? We see a few hints about Shara in LoC and they are presented as something of an aside; but Dem leading a big mama-jama Sharan army would be a big thing indeed.

Terez
11-24-2009, 05:40 PM
...all the Randland forces and leaders seem to be accounted for
The only one that isn't it Roedran of Murandy, hence the Roemandred theory.

Now the crazy part: Earlier we found out that even Shara is in chaos and KoD shows us that some are even fleeing.
Probably because Graendal stole their sh'boan and sh'botay. But then, of course, there's the sh'mandred theory too...

isamu237
11-24-2009, 06:03 PM
....Roemandred?....Sh'omandred?....my head hurts now. Time for more vicodin.
The schnozberries taste like schnozberries.

Really don't think I like the Roemandred idea. His position is far too weak and we don't even know if it's even secure yet. The only very, very, VERY tenuous link I can see is Talmanes telling us in KOD that Roedy had found a copy of Sun Tz-, er, Comradin's book. Thus, if he suddenly starts kicking ass he has a viable excuse.

reTaardad
11-24-2009, 06:07 PM
sh'mandred...hahaha

The facts do seem to point to Demandred masquerading as Roedran, but I'm not a big fan of it. The whole Forsaken-playing-king thing got old really fast after Rahvin, Sammael, and Be'lal all did it and failed miserably.

That's why I'm willing to embrace the sh'mandred idea, if only to protest Roemandred.

fdsaf3
11-24-2009, 06:31 PM
Has anyone ever thought about Demandred being among the Sea Folk?

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 06:50 PM
Has anyone ever thought about Demandred being among the Sea Folk?
Drawback to that theory is that he's obviously able to Travel around and we surmise from Semirhage's inability to attend Forsaken Coffee Hours while she was enroute from Seanchan that it is difficult or impossible to Travel from a moving ship. (How can you know your starting point if the starting point is constantly moving?)

Davian93
11-24-2009, 07:29 PM
Drawback to that theory is that he's obviously able to Travel around and we surmise from Semirhage's inability to attend Forsaken Coffee Hours while she was enroute from Seanchan that it is difficult or impossible to Travel from a moving ship. (How can you know your starting point if the starting point is constantly moving?)

How about Skimming?

Neilbert
11-24-2009, 07:35 PM
Drawback to that theory is that he's obviously able to Travel around and we surmise from Semirhage's inability to attend Forsaken Coffee Hours while she was enroute from Seanchan that it is difficult or impossible to Travel from a moving ship. (How can you know your starting point if the starting point is constantly moving?)

Oh dude, that's the easy part. How do you get back?

Grany is certain--in the TGS prologue--that Dem would have an army as that is his way and his ability. But all the Randland forces and leaders seem to be accounted for; plus RJ's assertion as of COT that we had not seen Dem's alter-ego/Third Age persona on screen yet.

Army of Asha'man.

isamu237
11-24-2009, 07:48 PM
sh'mandred...hahaha

The facts do seem to point to Demandred masquerading as Roedran, but I'm not a big fan of it. The whole Forsaken-playing-king thing got old really fast after Rahvin, Sammael, and Be'lal all did it and failed miserably.

That's why I'm willing to embrace the sh'mandred idea, if only to protest Roemandred.

I assume by "facts" you mean wild speculation? Or did I miss something?
I like the Sh'mandred idea in part because it wouldn't exclude pulling the strings of the BT and being the power behind Taim.

Daekyras
11-24-2009, 08:28 PM
I assume by "facts" you mean wild speculation? Or did I miss something?

I agree with this. I've read alot of theories (well one theory multiple times from multiple people!) and I fail to be convinced.

Kinda leaning to Seandred at the moment, even if only cause it reminds me of shaun of the dead...

Also, hello retaardad, long time no read. Did you ever get around to writing your theory on the nature of the one power/true power?

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 10:00 PM
How about Skimming?

Oh dude, that's the easy part. How do you get back?

For whatever reason, Semirhage couldn't or wouldn't Travel from a ship at sea, but Logain demonstrated that you can Travel TO a ship by not touching the ship with the (exit) gateway.

IIRC, there is an RJ quote about Traveling to or from water.

Yuri33
11-24-2009, 10:22 PM
Logain Traveled to a docked ship--I wouldn't want to try that on anything moving.

As far as Shara is concerned, it's unlikely that controlling the Sh'boan/Sh'botay (which Graendal has already appropriated) actually gives you true control over Shara and its channelers. According to the BWB, it's likely the Ayyad themselves, as a society, that are the real power:

BWB, Shara:

The writer goes on to make some interesting charges, claiming that, instead of the Will of the Pattern being responsible for the monarchs’ deaths every seven years, they are actually killed by the Ayyad. Indeed, this document states that, unbeknownst to the people, the Ayyad are the real power in Shara.

The ruler is surrounded with Ayyad women as servants. The only way to approach Sh’boan or Sh’botay, especially for a favor or ruling, is through these women, and the reply is usually delivered by these same women. Actual speech with the Sh’boan or Sh’botay is reckoned a very great honor, rarely bestowed.

Some rulers have failed to live the full measure of their seven years - a failure taken as a sign of the Creator’s displeasure, causing penances served across the land by high and low alike. The writer states that it is more likely that these rulers discovered that, despite their great power, the real control of the land was in the hands of the Ayyad through the apparent “servant women” surrounding the ruler.

This makes it even less likely that the Sharans can be appropriated by a male channeler like Demandred.

I'm firmly in the Shara-won't-be-involved boat. Too late in the story to introduce a force with that much potential power.

reTaardad
11-24-2009, 10:23 PM
Also, hello retaardad, long time no read. Did you ever get around to writing your theory on the nature of the one power/true power?
Remind me of what you're talking about and I'll get on it. It's Thanksgiving break, so lack of school gives me infinite time to do all things WoT.

Weird Harold
11-24-2009, 10:33 PM
Logain Traveled to a docked ship--I wouldn't want to try that on anything moving.

It's only a matter of degree. Docked ships move with the waves and tide.

The problem with Traveling to or from water is that water is constantly changing and therefore any weave that requires you "know" that location won't work.

reTaardad
11-24-2009, 10:38 PM
It seems like it's comparable to shooting a basketball into a hoop that's constantly spinning and moving up and down. Times 10 since it involves channeling.

Daekyras
11-24-2009, 11:21 PM
Remind me of what you're talking about and I'll get on it. It's Thanksgiving break, so lack of school gives me infinite time to do all things WoT.

A couple of years ago now we had a thread/theory discussion going with a few others about the nature of the Power. I was likening it to electricity and suggesting that channelers were like conductors eg Rand is a very good conductor like silver and non-channelers were like insulators eg Tam is like wood. We actually got into some good science at one point talking about Sa'angreal as San Greal semi conducors etc..

You brought up the idea of True power and were going to stick a theory together about it. I then got side tracked with life, it's horriblr how that can happen and never got back to you about it..

Oh and since then I've made some small refinements on my own thoughts too. Could be fun to discuss. ;)

Yuri33
11-25-2009, 12:20 AM
The problem with Traveling to or from water is that water is constantly changing and therefore any weave that requires you "know" that location won't work.

Nah, just go into a cabin with no windows and you'll be fine.

Or can this not be done because of some OP Theory of General Relativity? :)

Neilbert
11-25-2009, 12:33 AM
For whatever reason, Semirhage couldn't or wouldn't Travel from a ship at sea, but Logain demonstrated that you can Travel TO a ship by not touching the ship with the (exit) gateway.

Yeah, a docked ship, visible from shore. Which is something completely different than a ship somewhere on the ocean.

It's only a matter of degree. Docked ships move with the waves and tide.


Did you know that everything is moving, at all times? Of course it's a matter of degree, what else could it possibly be? The major difference is that Logain could actually see the ship he was traveling too.

Weird Harold
11-25-2009, 01:27 AM
Nah, just go into a cabin with no windows and you'll be fine.

Or can this not be done because of some OP Theory of General Relativity? :)
Like I said, RJ commented on Traveling from or to water and boats, I don't remember his exact explanation, and I can't use google docs, but it was related to Water constantly changing.

Terez
11-25-2009, 01:47 AM
Like I said, RJ commented on Traveling from or to water and boats, I don't remember his exact explanation, and I can't use google docs, but it was related to Water constantly changing.
I think after the book tour quotes are done coming in (some stormleaders are slow), I'll make a downloadable version. I just checked, and the links to the sources all transfer, so I should be able to make a nice PDF file of all of it. I shouldn't have to make an updated version until after the next book tour, which should be over a year from now. I'm hoping Brandon will do something like the TOR questions of the week (maybe Maria could do it!), but if that happens I'm sure everyone will be able to keep up with it.

canibus
11-25-2009, 09:42 AM
here is my two cents.

I believe that Demendrad is in control of the borderlanders.

Every one has an army that is control of senchan, mat, rand, egwene. But no one knows what the borderlandrs are up to.

Maybe he has compelled the rulers.

Another possiblity is that he has control of the senchan in senchen. As semirahge destroyed the rulers there, he might have took control. But that looks like a dodgy idea.

bonesbro
11-25-2009, 05:17 PM
How about Talmanes? Being in charge of the Band would be pretty potent, and boy, wouldn't that be chaotic?

frenchie
11-25-2009, 05:24 PM
What part of RJ saying that as of COT, we had not seen Demandred's alter ego on screen are people NOT understanding? We do not know who Demandred is posing as, but we do know that if we saw someone on screen before COT, they are not Demandred.

Bonzi77
11-25-2009, 05:33 PM
You know what would be a good question to ask? Given that we haven't seen Demandred on screen, have any of the characters that we have seen, seen Demandred off screen.

frenchie
11-25-2009, 05:39 PM
we know that the Rogue Asha'man(can't remember which one) thinks about the orders he received from both Taim and Demandred ordering him to kill Rand, so that is one.

bonesbro
11-25-2009, 05:44 PM
What part of RJ saying that as of COT, we had not seen Demandred's alter ego on screen are people NOT understanding? We do not know who Demandred is posing as, but we do know that if we saw someone on screen before COT, they are not Demandred.

Oh, you're absolutely right. That's too bad, Talmanes would have made a great Demandred.

... have we seen Talmanes's horse yet?

Terez
11-25-2009, 06:01 PM
LMAO!

Welcome back, frenchie. :)

Bonzi77
11-25-2009, 06:02 PM
we know that the Rogue Asha'man(can't remember which one) thinks about the orders he received from both Taim and Demandred ordering him to kill Rand, so that is one.

True, but I was thinking along the lines of seeing his disguise, if in fact he has one. I'm mostly of the belief that he's not actually posing as anyone and is working under his own name and rep. At this point it would be a let down if he had a disguise because we haven't seen it for it to have an impact.

Crispin's Crispian
11-25-2009, 06:07 PM
I had it in my head last week that Demandred was Darlin, who is getting antsy with the big army in Tear. But if we haven't seen Demandred, he can't be Darlin. I wonder if someone else is telling Darlin what to do...

I need to research that guy, as I don't remember much about him.

Terez
11-25-2009, 06:15 PM
I had it in my head last week that Demandred was Darlin, who is getting antsy with the big army in Tear. But if we haven't seen Demandred, he can't be Darlin. I wonder if someone else is telling Darlin what to do...

I need to research that guy, as I don't remember much about him.
I get the impression that Darlin is very much one of the good guys, and Caraline as well. Rand has a thought earlier in the series about how much he respects Darlin, because Darlin opposed him from the beginning, as soon as Rand took the Stone, and he had the balls to be open about it, unlike the other High Lords and Ladies that plotted against him secretly.

frenchie
11-25-2009, 07:47 PM
At this point, all we can do is guess where Demandred has established his power base. Remerber, he was a Great General, so he is going to go with military strength.The only place where rule has been strengthened that we have seen is in Murandy. That is the logical place for him to be via the information we have been given. As to whether or not that is the case, we shall see.

Daekyras
11-25-2009, 08:15 PM
There seem to be four main ideas:

Shara- Lame, just so,so lame.

Murandy\King Roedran- Logical but are they really a major force? I'm talking scale here, actual army numbers etc.

Seanchan- potential and possible tie in to title of next book etc..

Borderlander army- If this turns out to be true it better have one HELL of a good explanation as to how he convinced them to effectively throw away thousands of years of tradition...

These are the popular choices as we have't sen directly onscreen the respective leaders.

Any of the armies we know of would be a bit of a cop out to find him in charge of- eg Darlin meets rand with the army and says "I want you to meet someone" and shouts for his Knight captain "Kevin" and lo and behold it's Kevandred...

There is that interesting theory about andor also.

nameless
11-25-2009, 10:53 PM
As for the Murandy theory (which I buy into), remember that Demandred uses proxies. He wouldn't be impersonating king Roedran, he'd be the mysterious new nobleman who becomes the king's closest advisor almost overnight. How big the Murandian army is depends on how big the Band is, since that's the army they mobilized to fight. I've seen estimates putting the Band at anywhere from 15,000 to 30,000, which would put Murandy in the 20,000-40,000 range at least. The upper limit is 200,000, which is about the strength Andor can field. (We know Andor and Murandy are rivals and that Andor is the stronger of the two). Not overwhelming, but significant, especially with a skilled commander.

When it comes to Traveling to/from a moving ship... I've put a decent amount of thought into the logistics of gateways, although not as they relate to ships in particular. The problem in connecting two different places with two different inertial frames is that there's only one gateway by definition. It looks like there are two of them because they're separated by so much distance but that's just an illusion created by the spatial warping. Both sides are part of the same gateway, so they both have to have the same inertial frame (probably the frame of the origin side, since that's the one you have to be familiar with). If you opened a gateway from a fixed position to a position that was undergoing relative motion, such as a ship, you'd have a limited amount of time to step through before the ship passed beyond the gateway entirely and left you stranded above the middle of the ocean. Incidentally, this is why I think Moghedien was full of it when she claimed it was possible to Travel to other planets... the astrogation calculations would be astronomically difficult and the odds of finding an exact match for orbit speed and rotation astronomically low. Plus, if the atmospheric pressure didn't match you'd end up venting all of Earth's oxygen out into space.

Jokeslayer
11-25-2009, 10:59 PM
Borderlander army- If this turns out to be true it better have one HELL of a good explanation as to how he convinced them to effectively throw away thousands of years of tradition...


An idle thought: what did the borderlanders leave behind? I seem to remember they only left the blight mostly unguarded. Could be interesting if Demandred has managed to worm his way into control of what's left behind, irrespective of whether or not he had anything to do with the borderlanders leaving the blight.

Davian93
11-25-2009, 11:03 PM
An idle thought: what did the borderlanders leave behind? I seem to remember they only left the blight mostly unguarded. Could be interesting if Demandred has managed to worm his way into control of what's left behind, irrespective of whether or not he had anything to do with the borderlanders leaving the blight.

That's not entirely accurate. They left enough forces behind to "guard the Blight of anything short of another Trollocs Wars". In other words, normal and even heavy raids won't be an issue but a full out invasion would be trouble. My guess would be they probably have almost as many soldiers still in the Borderlands as they took with them...though they likely took their best men and best officers.

Murandy does not come close to Andor in strength...guess something like 50 K as a high end estimate...probably lower than that. The reason Andor wouldn't conquer them is that even with that type of 4-1 advantage it would be far too bloody and costly and there's no need to really conquer them, just to keep them from raiding their border.

reTaardad
11-25-2009, 11:04 PM
Demandred was plotting with Semirhage, Graendal, and Mesaana:

Mesaana is in the Tower; we've reportedly seen her alias, but haven't seen Demandred's; it's unlikely that a male channeler would work out of the center of Aes Sedai power; umm, what army? The fearsome Tower Guard?

Graendal was working out of Arad Doman; her end goal seemed more or less to be to sow chaos in the West; and there was not much room for two Forsaken to operate.

Semirhage, on the other hand, was working from inside of the invading force of an Empire. I don't know if it's been discussed, but what was Semirhage's plan after killing the Empress, the royal family, and most of the Blood in Seanchan? She impressed upon Suroth that she could take the throne, but it seemed like a bluff to me.
If they were working together, Semirhage and Demandred could have played out the entire debacle so that he could take over Seanchan and have a continent's worth of power pouring out of gateways at the Last Battle while she pulled the strings on this side of the world.

It's all pretty circumstantial, I don't really even believe it myself, but it's an idea: Demandred is Emperor of Seanchan.

Davian93
11-25-2009, 11:07 PM
To be precise, he is/was allied with Semi and Mesaana, not Graendal. They were all plotting together...yes but so were Rahvin, Lanfear, Asmo, and Be'lal if you go back far enough. Their interests probably didn't completely gel.


I doubt even Demandred could quell a 50 sided Civil War/War of Succession as that is what is apparently going on if Tuon's reports are to be believed...at least not in time to make a difference. Only weeks have passed since Semi decapitated the Royal Family of Seanchan.

reTaardad
11-25-2009, 11:14 PM
How long does it take to sail across the Aryth Ocean? Realistically, I'd say two months, but with the Power involved it's probably closer to one month. When Semirhage told Suroth about the ship that carried the news of the Empress' death, it was anchored in Ebou Dar very soon after (I can't remember an exact time frame, but I want to say it was within a week). The new war of succession would have been going on for weeks if we're to believe Semirhage. I think that'd be plenty of time for Demandred to wrap some heads in Compulsion and at least pull some strings in Seanchan.

Davian93
11-25-2009, 11:27 PM
How long does it take to sail across the Aryth Ocean? Realistically, I'd say two months, but with the Power involved it's probably closer to one month. When Semirhage told Suroth about the ship that carried the news of the Empress' death, it was anchored in Ebou Dar very soon after (I can't remember an exact time frame, but I want to say it was within a week). The new war of succession would have been going on for weeks if we're to believe Semirhage. I think that'd be plenty of time for Demandred to wrap some heads in Compulsion and at least pull some strings in Seanchan.


Maybe...it'd be pushing it. Its a huge continent with dozens of factions. Lets just say that why we can rule it out at all that its a long-shot.

Belazamon
11-26-2009, 12:01 AM
There seem to be four main ideas:
Five main ideas, actually. My gut instinct is still with the Black Tower.

Davian93
11-26-2009, 12:05 AM
Five main ideas, actually. My gut instinct is still with the Black Tower.

That begs the question...why was Dashiva there to watch things if Demandred was running it through Taim?

It also ignores the good possibility that Taim is a new Chosen himself (the extra chair at the Chosen Social in KoD along with other indicators).

It makes no sense to have that many leaders cooped up in one place.

Belazamon
11-26-2009, 12:10 AM
That begs the question...why was Dashiva there to watch things if Demandred was running it through Taim?
Well, two things. Number one, Dashiva certainly didn't stay at the Tower itself - he actually ended up following Rand around. Number two, the Chosen don't always manage to avoid working at cross-purposes. ;)

It makes no sense to have that many leaders cooped up in one place.
Well, if Demandred was really associated with the Black Tower, I'd be working under the assumption that Taim was his proxy. If Demandred was actually running the show himself, your point would be much more valid, of course.

Davian93
11-26-2009, 12:14 AM
Well, two things. Number one, Dashiva certainly didn't stay at the Tower itself - he actually ended up following Rand around. Number two, the Chosen don't always manage to avoid working at cross-purposes. ;)

That wasn't a plan though, that was Rand picking at random and his ta'vereness at play. Dashiva was supposed to stay at the Black Tower. Taim tried to talk Rand out of his decision quite vehemently actually.


Well, if Demandred was really associated with the Black Tower, I'd be working under the assumption that Taim was his proxy. If Demandred was actually running the show himself, your point would be much more valid, of course.

If Demandred was associated with the BT, he would have recognized Flinn at the Cleansing, he would have recognized the Black Coats as Asha'man, etc etc. There are plenty of signs that he isn't that familiar with the Black Tower.

Vaynard
11-26-2009, 12:36 AM
How about Davram Bashere as either a dark friend or under compulsion and accompanied by Demandred? Here's my reasoning (sorry if this has been gone over 100 times)
1) the only thing that made me think of this was when Bashere tried to stab Rand to show that anyone could try to assassinate him (Book 6). Assassination just doesn't seem like the best place for a demonstration, and Rand's channeling seemed to be the only thing that stopped it.
2) This would put him and Demandred, whom I assume would be in his army accompanying him, near Rand. They arrive after Rahvin dies, so he's not encroaching on his turf.
3) Bashere is in charge of a large army- meaning Demandred controls a large army that's being assembled for war in plain sight.
4) I believe someone said RJ had implied we haven't seen Demandred on screen yet- if he was behind the scenes taking control of Bashere's army and calling the shots, that would work out. The Asha'man wouldn't recognize him either.

Anyway, that's just my theory. The biggest flaw in it, other than it's somewhat off the wall, is how would one forsaken be able to convince an entire army to fight its supposed allies? Also, I like the theory that he's in Seanchan taking control as another option.

By the way, hello everyone! If I just brought up something said many times before or extremely stupid, please forgive me, I'm new. I read the books a year or two ago, and have just started checking out the site now that I've read the new book and it's left me craving more. Thanks for reading!

Weird Harold
11-26-2009, 12:54 AM
As for the Murandy theory (which I buy into), remember that Demandred uses proxies.

Actually, the word "Proxies" only occurs once in the entire series through KoD:

LoC
Chapter 6
Threads Woven of Shadow

"So Demandred knows you and I meet," he said flatly. Why had he ever expected to receive more than driblets from her?

"Of course he does. Not how much I tell you, but that I tell you something. I am trying to bring us together, Sammael, before it is too Ė "

He cut in sharply. "You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to." Events to the south had Demandredís mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. "Tell him to be careful. I wonít have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct alíThorís attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it." There had been a long struggle after the Bore was opened into the Great Lordís prison, many years before enough strength was gathered to move openly. This time, when the final seal was shattered, he would present the Great Lord with nations ready to follow. If they did not know who they followed, what did that matter? He would not fail, as Beílal and Rahvin had. The Great Lord would see who served him best. "You tell him!"


In the same instance, Demandred is also accused of having "Friends" and using "Lackeys" to get anything done and all of those characterizations are from Sammael, who is hardly an objective observer when it comes to other Forsaken.

I'm not convinced that Sammael was able to distinguish between Proxies/Lackeys and the Suborninates/Unit commanders of a typical military organization under a General's command.

Sammael certainly didn't seem to understand the concept of Delegation of Authority in structuring his defense against Rand's diversionary force -- led by Wieramon at the end.

Terez
11-26-2009, 02:54 AM
I suspect that he's got his hands in at least a few different things. Graendal might be right about him having an influence on the Borderlanders - their actions are so strange that it's hard to see them not being manipulated by one of the Forsaken. But she believes she knows what everyone else is up to, so she pins them on Demandred, the mystery man. He might have a hand in that, in Murandy, in the Black Tower, and in Shara and Seanchan. The epilogue of Lord of Chaos suggests he was up to some good stuff back then, and that's before Ishamael was transmigrated (so far as we know), so it seems likely he had a hand in the Black Tower then, at least. Maybe less so now that Nae'blis has been named.

Matoyak
11-26-2009, 03:57 AM
I suspect that he's got his hands in at least a few different things. Graendal might be right about him having an influence on the Borderlanders - their actions are so strange that it's hard to see them not being manipulated by one of the Forsaken. But she believes she knows what everyone else is up to, so she pins them on Demandred, the mystery man. He might have a hand in that, in Murandy, in the Black Tower, and in Shara and Seanchan. The epilogue of Lord of Chaos suggests he was up to some good stuff back then, and that's before Ishamael was transmigrated (so far as we know), so it seems likely he had a hand in the Black Tower then, at least. Maybe less so now that Nae'blis has been named.I'll admit to still loving the "Dem in Seandar" idea, but I feel this (What Terez said) is more likely. I think it would be much more interesting for him to have had a hand in practically every chaotic thing we've seen that we can't tie to a particular Forsaken.

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2009, 04:53 AM
4) I believe someone said RJ had implied we haven't seen Demandred on screen yet- if he was behind the scenes taking control of Bashere's army and calling the shots, that would work out. The Asha'man wouldn't recognize him either.In general, Saldaeans aren't all that tall, while Demandred is supposedly (almost) as tall as Rand is. That would make him stand out a bit, I think.

Spasmodean
11-26-2009, 05:54 AM
Irregardless of where he is, he has been built up so much and the mystery of his whereabouts has been highlighted multiple times.
We better be in for a real treat when we find out who and where he is!

kivo
11-26-2009, 11:07 AM
I like the "Sympathy For The Demandred" theory. He's got his hand all over the place like the Devil in the Rolling Stones song. Where there is civil war, look for Demandred's hand.

- Who appeared to Masema as the Dragon, shimmering in gold? He did.

- Who helped Semirhage throw Seanchan into chaos? Demandred.

- Who helped Mesaana plot the division of the White Tower?

- Who helped Mazrim Taim start a Dreadlord recruiting program in the Black Tower?

- Who Compelled the rulers of the Borderland nations to take their armies south? (and as a side-effected created a situation where the recovered armies will only have one King, the Lord of the Seven Towers, to follow in the last charge against the Shadow)

- Who created a new order in Shara, overthrowing the old Sh'boan, Sh'boaty system?

- Who complicated the Andoran succession and then swooped in as Chalrz Guybon to come to Elayne's aide, and thus position himself ever so closely to what the hated Lews Therin holds dear? (and in great place for a super-disturbing reveal to Rand after the babies are born and the Dragon stops by Caemlyn to see them.)

He's the hardest working man in Shadow-business.

nameless
11-26-2009, 02:01 PM
I'm with you for about half of those, but Aran'gar's the one who helped divide the White Tower, Graendal's the one who kidnapped the Sharan royals, and whatever's going on with the Borderlanders, it isn't Compulsion. During their meeting with each other we saw at least one of them second-guess whether or not they were doing the right thing, which is not possible for a Compelled mind.

Bonzi77
11-26-2009, 09:17 PM
I'm with you for about half of those, but Aran'gar's the one who helped divide the White Tower, Graendal's the one who kidnapped the Sharan royals, and whatever's going on with the Borderlanders, it isn't Compulsion. During their meeting with each other we saw at least one of them second-guess whether or not they were doing the right thing, which is not possible for a Compelled mind.

Actually, Mesaana is the one that orchestrated the split of the White Tower. Aran'gar/Halima didn't come on the scene until after the rebels were already set up in Salidar. As for the Borderlanders, they don't ALL need to be compelled. Just one or two strategically placed leading personalities that can get the others to go along. But compulsion is more subtle and is a lot more Graendal's MO than Demandred's.

Solmancer
11-27-2009, 02:43 AM
Compulsion is Graendal's main MO, yes, but more so because she can basically program people to do what she wants (because it's clearly one of her strongest Talents).

That doesn't mean none of the other Chosen won't use it to get what they need or want. Just look at Rahvin and Moghedien. They'll do it to get what they want, or to spread a bit of discord, period.

Terez
11-27-2009, 02:59 AM
I like the "Sympathy For The Demandred" theory. He's got his hand all over the place like the Devil in the Rolling Stones song. Where there is civil war, look for Demandred's hand.

- Who appeared to Masema as the Dragon, shimmering in gold? He did.
Felix thinks it was Verin. But I like Demandred better.

- Who helped Semirhage throw Seanchan into chaos? Demandred.
Sure, why not?

- Who helped Mesaana plot the division of the White Tower?
I think he was behind Taim at that time.

- Who helped Mazrim Taim start a Dreadlord recruiting program in the Black Tower?
Yah.

- Who Compelled the rulers of the Borderland nations to take their armies south? (and as a side-effected created a situation where the recovered armies will only have one King, the Lord of the Seven Towers, to follow in the last charge against the Shadow)
Something along these lines.

- Who created a new order in Shara, overthrowing the old Sh'boan, Sh'boaty system?
He might have come in to take advantage of the chaos Graendal left behind, for sure.

- Who complicated the Andoran succession and then swooped in as Chalrz Guybon to come to Elayne's aide, and thus position himself ever so closely to what the hated Lews Therin holds dear? (and in great place for a super-disturbing reveal to Rand after the babies are born and the Dragon stops by Caemlyn to see them.)
hmm, interesting. But I doubt it for one reason - RJ named Charlz Guybon after a real life person, intending to do him an honor, so I doubt Charlz is a bad guy.

He's the hardest working man in Shadow-business.
Don't forget the Shadowspawn attack at Algarin's, and the person that sent the Darkhounds after Fain, and the person that ordered Slayer to kill Rand in Far Madding. I don't necessarily think he was behind all those (I'd say Fain, Moridin, and Aran'gar for those) but it's been argued by other people at Theoryland that Demandred was behind those.

ActuallyitsNaar
11-27-2009, 08:20 AM
Sorry if all I am posting is nonsense. First time posting here.

This is basically making assumptions by looking to the next book, which does seem like it will focus on the Seanchan. I cannot see any mention of this in the thread.

Now that the Seanchan will have the ability to travel Tuon/Fortuona has the opportunity to head back to the Empire and sort it out, without ruining "The Return"

We know Seanchan was in chaos, which is a good indication of Forsaken involvement. This was a good while ago though, so there has been plenty of time for Demandred to make a play for the throne.

Next bit is a bit out there, If someone else has seized control maybe we could see Rand help Tuon/Fortuona regain the throne, it would bind the daughter of the nine moons to him, perhaps with him ultimatley bowing before her once she retakes the throne.

Okay end bit is getting a carried away. But I think we are certainly going to see a little bit of Seanchan, and it is the most likely (possibly only) place Demandred will be hiding.

Only problem I see is I am sure there was comment by RJ that we would not see Seachan again in the books.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2009, 08:26 AM
Only problem I see is I am sure there was comment by RJ that we would not see Seachan again in the books.Which, admittedly, is a rather big problem. But if we ignore that ...

Welcome to the board, anyway.

greatwolf
11-27-2009, 09:17 AM
Of course, if we see seanchan again, we might also get to see Taimandred. :)

Bonzi77
11-27-2009, 09:35 AM
Compulsion is Graendal's main MO, yes, but more so because she can basically program people to do what she wants (because it's clearly one of her strongest Talents).

That doesn't mean none of the other Chosen won't use it to get what they need or want. Just look at Rahvin and Moghedien. They'll do it to get what they want, or to spread a bit of discord, period.

Graendal is actually the only one we've seen whose compulsion is strong enough to be effective in her absence. Morgase was able to get out from under Rahvin's thumb when she was not in his presence and Moghedien only used a very temporary weave on Elayne and Nynaeve.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2009, 10:03 AM
Rahvin has also used it on a Red Sister who has since then disappeared, never to be heard of again. Presumably, whatever he did to her still works. Just as his Compulsion on Morgase is still having effects.

Moghedien used it on Liandrin, and that's not faded any, as far as we know.

Bela used it on Gareth Bryne to make him fall in love with Siuan, and that's still working too.

In general, I think that the Forsaken overestimate the AS's ability to detect Compulsion, and are therefor too careful about using it.
Verin thought that what she had used was nearly undetectable even by the greatest experts (like Verin), but it doesn't seem to have been all that difficult to detect or counteract for the Forsaken.

Davian93
11-27-2009, 11:01 AM
Felix thinks it was Verin. But I like Demandred better.

I'm sorry, WHAT?!? Verin, are you kidding me???

Davian93
11-27-2009, 11:03 AM
Which, admittedly, is a rather big problem. But if we ignore that ...

Welcome to the board, anyway.

RJ said we would only see it briefly...not that we wouldn't ever see it again.

Though the plotline of one of the outrigger novels was likely Mat and Tuon focusing on Seanchan (likely pacifying it) so I doubt that will happen now.

Bonzi77
11-27-2009, 11:06 AM
Rahvin has also used it on a Red Sister who has since then disappeared, never to be heard of again. Presumably, whatever he did to her still works. Just as his Compulsion on Morgase is still having effects.

Moghedien used it on Liandrin, and that's not faded any, as far as we know.

Bela used it on Gareth Bryne to make him fall in love with Siuan, and that's still working too.

In general, I think that the Forsaken overestimate the AS's ability to detect Compulsion, and are therefor too careful about using it.
Verin thought that what she had used was nearly undetectable even by the greatest experts (like Verin), but it doesn't seem to have been all that difficult to detect or counteract for the Forsaken.

What effects is Morgase still having? And Moghedien didn't use compulsion on Liandrin. She put a shield on her that she wouldn't be able to remove.

Davian93
11-27-2009, 11:13 AM
What effects is Morgase still having? And Moghedien didn't use compulsion on Liandrin. She put a shield on her that she wouldn't be able to remove.

There was mention of Morgase still having issues when she thought of Gaebril despite her shaking it off mostly...though I couldn't find anything after the initial escape time period...not recent at least.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2009, 11:21 AM
For herself, Morgase had to grip the arm of her chair to keep from pressing a hand against her stomach. If her other hand had not been resting the goblet on the other chair arm, she would have slopped punch onto the carpet. Gaebril dead? He had gulled her, turned her into his doxy, usurped her authority, oppressed the land in her name, and finally named himself King of Andor, which had never had a king. How, after all that, could there possibly be this faint regret that she would never feel his hands again? It was madness; if she had not known it was impossible, she would have believed he had used the One Power on her in some way.That's Morgase.

As for Liandrin:
"You thought you had learned something of compulsion," Moghedien went on. "I will teach you a bit more." For an instant Liandrin shivered, Moghedien's eyes filling her vision as the woman's voice filled her ears, her entire head. "Live." The instant passed, and sweat beaded on Liandrin's face as. the Chosen smiled at her. "Compulsion has many limits, but a command to do what someone wants to do in their inmost depths will hold for a lifetime. You will live, however much you think you want to take your life. And you will think of it. You will lie weeping many nights, wishing for it."I'll leave finding quotes regarding Bela to others. That's too easy for me to bother with.

Davian93
11-27-2009, 11:23 AM
Yeah, that's the only Morgase quote I could find and it was in LoC...a long long time ago. I was thinking there might be something more recent (from her time with Perrin's group but I didn't find anything.)

Yuri33
11-27-2009, 01:15 PM
People are taking "Towers of Midnight" too literally. Yes, there will most likely be a significant part in the next book dealing with the Seanchan--on this side of the ocean.

On the Seanchan continent, the Towers were a beachhead, a fortress from which Luthair's forces began the Consolidation. Tuon now has a foothold on Randland in Altara, her own "Towers of Midnight." At least initially, Tuon will think she's paralleling Luthair.

Of course, it will also refer more literally the towers (white, black, silver) that we'll see as well. But that's the beauty of metaphor...

That said, I believe Demandred's influence among the Seanchan is quite limited.

Neilbert
11-27-2009, 01:30 PM
If Demandred was associated with the BT, he would have recognized Flinn at the Cleansing, he would have recognized the Black Coats as Asha'man, etc etc. There are plenty of signs that he isn't that familiar with the Black Tower.

He might not be very familiar with the Black Tower, but he was giving Asha'man orders before the cleansing, so you can't really say he isn't associated with the Black Tower.

In fact, it's pretty clear that Demandred has some association with the Black Tower, the only thing that's unclear is the exact nature of that association.

isamu237
11-27-2009, 05:52 PM
As for the Murandy theory (which I buy into), remember that Demandred uses proxies.

I'd completely forgotten about that and I'm trying to find the exact quote to back it up. Doesn't Sammy tell Granny this in ACoS? The implication was that Demy was behind the re-Return and Sammy didn't want them threatening his claim on Illian. Someone throw me a bone here, please.

Which makes me go waaaaaay back to my original stance when arguing with all you idiot Taimandreders. That being, Demy isn't anyone anywhere. He's himself behind the scenes giving orders and moving the pieces on the Stones board from the shadows.
Granny thinks he would surely have an army and a base of operations somewhere because he's a great general and that was his style. But if he really is a great general, that couldn't he have come up with a change of tactics to throw LTT and the other Forsaken a curve ball?

frenchie
11-27-2009, 07:59 PM
No, Demandred wouldn't have changed his ways. Have you not been reading The Wheel of Time. We are shown time and time again that the Forsaken are very simple. They do the things they are good at, and do not deviate. Sammael died in pretty much the exact situation Graendal predicted. Faile said in TGS, "Only Evil never changes", which is what we have seen repeatedly throughout the series.

Weird Harold
11-27-2009, 08:03 PM
I'd completely forgotten about that and I'm trying to find the exact quote to back it up.

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78170&postcount=45

Davian93
11-27-2009, 08:33 PM
No, Demandred wouldn't have changed his ways. Have you not been reading The Wheel of Time. We are shown time and time again that the Forsaken are very simple. They do the things they are good at, and do not deviate. Sammael died in pretty much the exact situation Graendal predicted. Faile said in TGS, "Only Evil never changes", which is what we have seen repeatedly throughout the series.

Demandred has been built up for 7 books now...He was also said to be almost as great at LTT at everything in life. I would be disappointed if he doesn't have a huge and crazy spectacular death scene.

frenchie
11-27-2009, 08:45 PM
Demandred has been built up for 7 books now...He was also said to be almost as great at LTT at everything in life. I would be disappointed if he doesn't have a huge and crazy spectacular death scene.

I know the feeling. I started reading WOT with LoC, and Demandred was the 1st POV I read. But somehow, I get this feeling that his "Big Entrance/Exit" is going to be disappointing. All of the Forsaken have been big let down's, Ishamael/Moridin excluded.

Davian93
11-27-2009, 08:46 PM
I know the feeling. I started reading WOT with LoC, and Demandred was the 1st POV I read. But somehow, I get this feeling that his "Big Entrance/Exit" is going to be disappointing. All of the Forsaken have been big let down's, Ishamael/Moridin excluded.

I think Demandred will also be an exception.

Question: When you started reading at LoC, did you realize it was Book 6? That would be confusing to say the least.

frenchie
11-27-2009, 08:49 PM
Yeah, I was on break at work, and 1 of the Supervisor's left it in the break room. I read the Prologue, and I was hooked. Went home and went to Border's and picked up TEOTW,TGH and TDR.

jason wolfbrother
11-28-2009, 03:25 AM
He might not be very familiar with the Black Tower, but he was giving Asha'man orders before the cleansing, so you can't really say he isn't associated with the Black Tower.

In fact, it's pretty clear that Demandred has some association with the Black Tower, the only thing that's unclear is the exact nature of that association.

No the only thing that is clear is that Demandred has/had some association with some of the Asha'man. That is the only concrete fact we have. He gave specific orders to those Asha'man sometime before the showdown at Shadar Logoth

TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air
"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air
"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air
And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions." The man said he was one of the Chosen, And no one was mad enough to make that claim unless it was true, yet he seemed to think al'Thor's belongings more important than his death, the killing incidental And not really necessary.
then he met Flinn

TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.

Demandred recognizes a man channeling in a black coat as one of the Asha'man.

those are the only concrete facts we have. anything else is pure unsupported conjecture. which is probably why Demandred's Identity is growing in popularity.

nameless
11-28-2009, 10:47 AM
from Winter's Heart, "What the Aelfinn Said"

"'I didn't expect you back yet,' he said, trying to think. Of everything he had considred going amiss tonight, Tylin returning early had never been in it. his brain seemed frozen.
'Suroth learned that an army had vanished in Murandy,' Tylin replied slowly, straightening. She spoke absently, giving what she said a fraction of the attention she put into studying Mat Cauthon. 'What army, or how any army can vanish, I don't know, but she decided her return was urgent."

So somewhere in Murandy an army vanished somehow. That could have been the Band with it's unexpected speed and stealth, or it could have been Demandred marshalling the Murandian army through Gateways. Food for thought.

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2009, 12:18 PM
I thought that was Egwene's army, which left for Tar Valon.

Marie Curie 7
11-28-2009, 01:18 PM
When it comes to Traveling to/from a moving ship... I've put a decent amount of thought into the logistics of gateways, although not as they relate to ships in particular. The problem in connecting two different places with two different inertial frames is that there's only one gateway by definition. It looks like there are two of them because they're separated by so much distance but that's just an illusion created by the spatial warping. Both sides are part of the same gateway, so they both have to have the same inertial frame (probably the frame of the origin side, since that's the one you have to be familiar with). If you opened a gateway from a fixed position to a position that was undergoing relative motion, such as a ship, you'd have a limited amount of time to step through before the ship passed beyond the gateway entirely and left you stranded above the middle of the ocean. Incidentally, this is why I think Moghedien was full of it when she claimed it was possible to Travel to other planets... the astrogation calculations would be astronomically difficult and the odds of finding an exact match for orbit speed and rotation astronomically low. Plus, if the atmospheric pressure didn't match you'd end up venting all of Earth's oxygen out into space.

Well, it wasn't just Moghedien talking about Traveling to other planets. RJ was asked about it in the Tor Questions of the Week, and confirmed that it was possible:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 19 Question: How far can a channeler Travel with the One Power? I know they can Travel anywhere on the globe, and enter Tel'aran'rhiod through a slightly different weave, but is it possible to Travel to other planets, or even planets in other galaxies?

Robert Jordan Answers: Travel to other planets within the solar system would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, though not necessarily as many as thirteen, depending on exactly how far out they wanted to go. Travel to a planet in another solar system would require a rather large circle (of the maximum possible size) of very strong channelers, and there would a limit on how far they could go in one jump. They could planet-hop, of course. Travel to another galaxy would be beyond them even if they began on the planet in this galaxy nearest the target galaxy.


I thought that was Egwene's army, which left for Tar Valon.

Yeah, I would say that it almost certainly referred to Egwene's army. According to the Chronology, the rebels Traveled to Tar Valon from Murandy on day 703. Tylin returned early to Ebou Dar on day 710.

nameless
11-29-2009, 01:48 AM
Egwene's army... of course. Missing that's what I get for going out of order in my rereading.

As for interplanetary Traveling, RJ says it's possible in terms of distance Traveled with a given gateway, but my concerns were more with the logistics of disembarking onto a new planet without accidentally killing yourself. I guess it's a big enough galaxy that somewhere out there are a few planets with the right inertial frame to allow Travel, and a variation of the high-altitude breathing weave Rand uses in tGS would account for pressure differentials, but the whole thing seems really dangerous and much more trouble than it's worth. Of course, you could say the same about the moon landing so I suppose my objections don't really hold water.

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 03:06 AM
No the only thing that is clear is that Demandred has/had some association with some of the Asha'man. That is the only concrete fact we have. He gave specific orders to those Asha'man sometime before the showdown at Shadar Logoth...


...those are the only concrete facts we have. anything else is pure unsupported conjecture. which is probably why Demandred's Identity is growing in popularity.

You missed the bit about Demandred's pov in WH where he thinks of his part in the BT. That and a lot of other clues and tidbits. Demandred's association with Taim and the BT are unclear to say the least.

Fact is, Demandred has been hidden for too long if we haven't as yet seen his alter ego. But then so has LT in a sense. Rand doesn't seem to be what one would expect of 400-500 year old channeler from the aol. (At least I think LT was said to be in middle age).

It would be better if I had the books to quote right now but well...

oh, there was also a bit where someone was musing about where demandred semi and mesaana had positioned themselves and how much the DO had knowing

jason wolfbrother
11-29-2009, 03:58 AM
You missed the bit about Demandred's pov in WH where he thinks of his part in the BT. That and a lot of other clues and tidbits. Demandred's association with Taim and the BT are unclear to say the least.

oh, there was also a bit where someone was musing about where demandred semi and mesaana had positioned themselves and how much the DO had knowing

there is nothing in either of Demandred's pov's in WH where even ponders the BT except the meeting with Flinn I already quoted. the only connection is the one from Kisman's pov where he ponders the three separate orders to kill Rand from the M'Hael, Demandred, and Moridin respectively.

as for the musing that is Demandred himself musing on Mesaana and Semirhage.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Still Demandred kept silent, stood there studying them. No, not Graendal. Semirhage and her. And when he did speak, half to himself, it was to they two. "When I think where you two have placed yourselves, I wonder. How much has the Great Lord known, for how long? How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?" There was no answer to that. Finally, he said, "You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. But it stays here, held close. Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others, whether alive or dead. The first part of the Great Lord's message was simple. 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule.' His words, exact." The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him. Then he told them the rest.

Weird Harold
11-29-2009, 02:10 PM
As for interplanetary Traveling, RJ says it's possible in terms of distance Traveled with a given gateway, but my concerns were more with the logistics of disembarking onto a new planet without accidentally killing yourself. I guess it's a big enough galaxy that somewhere out there are a few planets with the right inertial frame to allow Travel, ...

Traveling does do a certain amount of automatic comensation for Inertial differences. Otherwise it would be impossible to travel north and south or to the opposite side of the Globe -- as Aviendha did in WH Far Snows.

The apparent problem with Traveling seems to be Traveling to or from Water or Waterborne targets and derives from Semirhage's apparent inability to Travel during the period when she was known to be at sea.

Neilbert
11-29-2009, 03:13 PM
It would be impossible to Travel anywhere if you Traveled to an absolute location. The motion of Earth through space would make a gateway useless unless it was somehow fixed to its surroundings. It is probably possible to travel to and from a moving boat, provided you can locate it.

nameless
11-29-2009, 06:38 PM
My objection wasn't that the gateway would stick to an absolute location but rather that the origin and terminus of the gateway should both have to be synched up to the same relative motion. However, WH is right. If there weren't at least a little bit of leeway in terms of inertial frames it would be impossible to Travel to different altitudes or different lattitudes, and we've seen both of those take place. Maybe the gateway is anchored in whatever dimension Rand uses in order to fold space (I suspect it's the Skimming Place, but there's no real evidence) and isn't subject to the constraints of space-time at all. Or maybe inertia as well as space is twisted up in the folding process.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2009, 04:00 AM
Or maybe it is simply a matter of superstition. If you are firmly convinced that Traveling from or to a ship is impossible, then you won't even try, so you will never learn that you're wrong.

Spasmodean
11-30-2009, 04:12 AM
Now that I have re-read those Kisman quotes I am wondering about the "even from the M'hael" part of Demandred's order.

We have no concrete proof that Taim is a Darkfriend. Just more stirring of the pot.

Enigma
11-30-2009, 08:15 AM
Or maybe it is simply a matter of superstition. If you are firmly convinced that Traveling from or to a ship is impossible, then you won't even try, so you will never learn that you're wrong.

I can see how a ship would be a problme unless it was at anchor. If the gatway opened at point X the ship will move away from that point so you would have to be very quick in jumping through. Added to that is the problem you would face of learning the place as the place is moving unless either in port or at anchor.

I think part of the weave probably compensates for the movement of the planet. Males travel by joining two places together and drilling a hole through. Women make two places exactly the same. In both places the weave is targeting the surrounding as opposed to a fixed point in space.

The surrounding are not going to change, there will still be a mountain to the left and a river on the right with a forest over that direction etc. If traveling was aimed at a fixed point in space then they would have a problem as you might open a gateway in a field but at the speed of the plannet's rotation the gateway would be going very very fast and could be in the middle of a mountain in a few minutes.

Can the pattern stretch? If you are pulling two places together then it must have some give in it other wise the act of traveling would rip the pattern. If it does stretch that process goes on to a greater degree the longer the gateway is open.

We have never seen a gateway tied off forever, I wonder if eventaully the pattern will overcome the weave if its left in place too long and the strain snaps the gate shut eventaully.

Weird Harold
11-30-2009, 12:08 PM
In both places the weave is targeting the surrounding as opposed to a fixed point in space.

That's a very good point.

The surroundings of a ship at sea are water and water is constantly changing. Since no two pictures of a sea-scape are ever exactly alike, it would be difficult to "make exactly similar" when one end is constantly changing.

Perhaps it is only a problem for women, since the Saidar method is dependent on creating that "exact similarity" and the only evidence we have is the indirect evidence that Semirhage couldn't attand Coffe Hour during the period she was on a ship at sea.

A thought: Do ships show up in T'A'R, or are they like Wagons and carts, here and gone randomly unless sitting unused and unmoving for a long time. Perhaps the circumstances that make objects register on T'A'R are similar to the circumstances that make it possible to open a gateway to an object like a ship or wagon.

Neilbert
11-30-2009, 12:51 PM
If the gatway opened at point X the ship will move away from that point so you would have to be very quick in jumping through.

Not if you fix the gateway to the ship itself. It would be difficult I'm sure, but it certainly isn't impossible. You're just fixing a gateway to the relative motion of the ship, rather than the relative motion of the planet.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 02:29 PM
What exactly do we know about the Isle of Madmen again? I forget what was written about it in that reference book thingy.

Could Sammael have been referring to the Isle when he said something along the lines of "events down south have Demandred written all over them"?

At one of the Dragon Cons, Robert Jordan was evidently asked about males having a block on their channeling like wilder females. He said specifically that in the case of the Isle of Madmen, male blocks on channeling is one of the reasons the continent/island still remains.

He also mentioned once before that he's actively toying with the idea of some future parts of the story taking place on the Isle of Madmen. Brandon Sanderson was asked if we'll see the Isle of Madmen in the next two books and he gave the classic RAFO answer straight up, no qualifications.

I know most people don't consider the Isle of Madmen to be even in the running for one of Demandred's (possibly many) playgrounds, but the fact that Robert Jordan has considered whether or not to have certain parts of the story take place there makes me think that the place isn't so much important as who is there.

Crispin's Crispian
01-11-2010, 02:26 PM
I don't recall this being discussed anywhere, even after Terez posted the original quote in the Book Tour thread.


The Gathering Storm Book tour
Idaho Falls 19 December 2009 - wolfbro22 reporting

Went to the signing in Idaho Falls today and asked Brandon if we had seen Demandred's alter ego on screen, and he gave me a RAFO card and said that Demandred's identity is the biggest secret in the series and will pay off in the end.

Demandred's identity is the biggest secret in the series?! Either he is projecting what he believes the community thinks, or Demandred is playing a very important role--maybe more important than we thought.

I guess if he's leading the Borderlanders, or is going to bring the massive armies of Shar'ah to destroy the Aiel, that would be important.

Still, it sure seems like Theoryland doesn't consider his identity to be the biggest mystery.

Thoughts?

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 03:06 PM
Randandred.

Demandred has been impersonating Rand ever since the mirror incident in Tear with Berelain.

Terez
01-11-2010, 03:11 PM
Even at the Cleansing, huh?

I've got it. Logain was impersonating Demandred at the Cleansing!

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 03:39 PM
Well, obviously. I've been saying that for years, now.

metaphor
01-11-2010, 03:42 PM
And Rand was impersonating Logain. It all makes sense.
It's also a better theory than Demandred impersonating Olver.

Belazamon
01-11-2010, 04:41 PM
I thought Demandred was disguised as Perrin's beard? I'm so confused now.

crue
01-11-2010, 04:58 PM
What exactly do we know about the Isle of Madmen again? I forget what was written about it in that reference book thingy.

Could Sammael have been referring to the Isle when he said something along the lines of "events down south have Demandred written all over them"?


I always believed Sammael to be talking about the Seanchan here. He knew they landed at Ebou Dar, and didn't want them trying to "carve out" any of his territory. Illian is directly east of Altara, after all.

So, assuming this, Sammael believes Demandred to be with the Seanchan in Randland, not in Seandar. Could Demandred be leading the Seanchan armies? Would that have any benefit since he can't actively aim them at anyone?

The other possibility is that Sammael was referring to the Isle of Madmen. We haven't heard anything out of the Isle, so it seems unlikely Sammael was referring to it.

Of course, Sammael could have been completely off-base with his thoughts on Demandred.

Crispin's Crispian
01-11-2010, 05:23 PM
I thought Demandred was disguised as Perrin's beard? I'm so confused now.

Even at the Cleansing, huh?

I've got it. Logain was impersonating Demandred at the Cleansing!

And Rand was impersonating Logain. It all makes sense.
It's also a better theory than Demandred impersonating Olver.


I don't see that any of these are mutually exclusive. The only thing we don't know is whether Perrin's beard made it to the Cleansing. Is it possible that Cadsuane was impersonating Perrin's beard, thus allowing Lograndred to infiltrate the Seanchan in Altara?

Kimon
01-11-2010, 05:59 PM
The other possibility is that Sammael was referring to the Isle of Madmen. We haven't heard anything out of the Isle, so it seems unlikely Sammael was referring to it.

Of course, Sammael could have been completely off-base with his thoughts on Demandred.

Sammael was at Graendal's lair in Arad Doman at the time, so his reference to south may simply be in relation to south of his present location, and his actual wording would seem to argue strongly against this having anything to do with the Isle of the Madmen (or with the Seanchan...your other theory). Nota Bene:

"Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. 'Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interferring in my plans'".

If this refers to either the Isle of the Madmen or the Seanchan, that would seem to imply that both options had some bearing on his own plans, which is hard to fathom. The more likely candidates for this "south" and thus for the proxies would seem to be Masema and perhaps the rebels in the Haddon Mirk. Both of more immediate concern to Sammael's plans in Illian.

dominominic
01-11-2010, 06:09 PM
I don't see that any of these are mutually exclusive. The only thing we don't know is whether Perrin's beard made it to the Cleansing. Is it possible that Cadsuane was impersonating Perrin's beard, thus allowing Lograndred to infiltrate the Seanchan in Altara?

I dont see why not.

And the Pattern is actually just Nynaeve's braid.

And she is the DO, always pulling on it.

And The Song is a tune made of sniffs and snorts.

And Demandred is Ilyena because she also often came second after Lews Therin.

Actually I apologise for that last one...

crue
01-11-2010, 06:16 PM
Sammael was at Graendal's lair in Arad Doman at the time, so his reference to south may simply be in relation to south of his present location, and his actual wording would seem to argue strongly against this having anything to do with the Isle of the Madmen (or with the Seanchan...your other theory). Nota Bene:

If this refers to either the Isle of the Madmen or the Seanchan, that would seem to imply that both options had some bearing on his own plans, which is hard to fathom. The more likely candidates for this "south" and thus for the proxies would seem to be Masema and perhaps the rebels in the Haddon Mirk. Both of more immediate concern to Sammael's plans in Illian.

Considering Masema and his followers were wiped out, that would be an awful place for Demandred to be. I think we can rule out Demandred placing all his power there.

I can't see the rebels in Haddon Mirk being a threat to any of Sammael's plans. In fact, they were geographically farther away then the Seanchan. Plus, I can't see Demandred's influence with the rebels. Am I missing something?

Sammael's plans were to bring unified countries to the DO's side. War in Altara with the Seanchan would definitely disrupt this plan.

Based on Sammael's location at the time of the comment, we can rule out Sammael thinking that Demandred was in Caemlyn with the Black Tower, or with the Borderland army, or in Shara. So, where else would Sammael have thought Demandred to be?

Kimon
01-11-2010, 07:19 PM
Considering Masema and his followers were wiped out, that would be an awful place for Demandred to be. I think we can rule out Demandred placing all his power there.

I can't see the rebels in Haddon Mirk being a threat to any of Sammael's plans. In fact, they were geographically farther away then the Seanchan. Plus, I can't see Demandred's influence with the rebels. Am I missing something?

Sammael's plans were to bring unified countries to the DO's side. War in Altara with the Seanchan would definitely disrupt this plan.

Based on Sammael's location at the time of the comment, we can rule out Sammael thinking that Demandred was in Caemlyn with the Black Tower, or with the Borderland army, or in Shara. So, where else would Sammael have thought Demandred to be?

I don't mean to imply that Demandred is necessarily in either of these locales, only that his proxies are/were. Keep in mind that Sammael himself doesn't even necessarily imply a permanent presence by Demandred in the south, only of his meddling in affairs in the south.

The reason that I suggested Masema and the Haddon Mirk rebels as potential proxies is because of their known activities at the time. Certainly the Prophet was creating havoc throughout Ghealdan at the time, and his chaos was spreading into Amadicia and Altara. Masema's POV in TGS certainly allude to his contact with a pseudo-Dragon that was giving him orders, this figure may not have been Demandred, but since this figure was giving orders long after Sammael's demise, Demandred at least is a potential source of this chaos. This "false" dragon is presumably either one of the surviving male Forsaken (or maybe Aran'gar considering her mention of playing an impersonating game in KoD) or perhaps Fain (Fain is perhaps a stretch, but then it is difficult to determine the scope or limit of his tricks and talents). The rebels in Haddon Mirk were likewise making a nuisance of themselves in the south, though they may well have been either independently motivated or operatives (either knowing or unwitting) of Sammael himself, or of some other of the Forsaken.

Concerning the Seanchan, you must keep in mind that they had not yet arrived in Altara. They are thus highly unlikely, as the designation of south would be anachronistic in reference to them.

Terez
01-12-2010, 03:41 AM
One of the Forsaken other than Aran'gar was ordering Moria, and Demandred is a good candidate, along with Moridin and Mesaana - Moria was the one who pushed for the 'alliance' with the Black Tower in the first place. It may be that she was simply trying to cause a little chaos in the Hall, but it seems more likely that she was ordered to do it. She was the only Black with any real power among the rebels that wasn't being controlled either directly (Delana) or indirectly (Sheriam) by Aran'gar (who had motive to oppose the 'alliance').

FelixPax
01-14-2010, 07:12 PM
In a nutshell, Mesaana's fashion clue suggests that Demandred as been in Andor, Cairhien, Tear, Altara.


This is not what I have previous argued for either, as I thought that Demandred was elsewhere before this posting. Be warned this thread is long, with source quotations.

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Considering Masema and his followers were wiped out, that would be an awful place for Demandred to be. I think we can rule out Demandred placing all his power there.

Masema transformation into the Prophet is most likely a product of Moghedien's influence, not Demandred's. At the very least we seem to agree Demandred was not behind Masema, although maybe not on why that is so. Or How.

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Am I missing something?

Yes, there one specific hint about where Demandred is to be found, and not to be found. All based upon his own faction member's observation, Demandred's fashion sense and clothing:

There was no warning, of course. There never was, when a man channeled. A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through, giving them each a small bow. He was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck. He adapted easily to the fashions and fabrics of this Age.

I'd trust Mesaana's knowing Demandred's relative placement and location over most other Chosen's opinions. Yes, its a very small clue. But where is pale lace around the neck common, and an uncommon fashion in the Westlands?

In Cairhien, Andor, Altara, Mayene, Cairhien there are texture quotes supporting the common fashion of lace being found around a neckline. Separately, Asmodean even worn lace around his neck.

After Rand and Min came to control Cairhien and Tear, the fashion of those nation's noblewomen slowly adapted Min's preferred fashion style of breeches & short coat not covering the hips. Not sure, how this later effected men's clothing fashions within those areas.


Although Demandred has also been seen wearing a unique type of cloak, when heading to talk with the Dark One:

In what was now called the Age of Legends, this had been an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic. Despite the steam it was bitter cold, now; he did not allow himself to feel it, but instinct made him pull his fur-lined velvet cloak closer. Feathery mist marked his breath, barely visible before the air drank it. A few hundred leagues north the world was pure ice, but Thakan’dar was always dry as any desert, though always wrapped in winter


From another point of attack to the problem of where Demandred, might be. Let's look towards what Birgitte told Nynaeve previously:

“I am not so unskilled—or so foolish—as to allow that.” Birgitte leaned on her silver bow; legend said she never missed with that bow and her silver arrows. “They are concerned with each other, not anyone else. I have seen Rahvin and Sammael, Graendal and Lanfear, each stalking the others unseen. And Demandred and Semirhage each shadowing them as well. I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed.”

To shadow a person implies a tracking, observing of them closely.

Where were Rahvin, Sammael, Graendal known be to physical located? In Andor, Illian, Arad Doman.

And Lanfear? She placed darkfriends close to Rand in the Aiel Waste to try watch his actions and behaviors. This implies that Demandred has done the same as Lanfear, placed other Darkfriend relatively close to Rand.


Rahvin seems to imply contact with Demandred at one point in the story:


“Should I expect more, Lanfear?” he growled. “Have you convinced Demandred to stop thinking he is all but the Great Lord’s heir?”

“I doubt he is arrogant enough for that,” Lanfear replied smoothly. “He can see where it took Ishamael. And that is the point. A point Graendal raised. Once we were thirteen, immortal. Now four are dead, and one has betrayed us. We four are all who meet here today, and enough.”


Demandred also seems to imply visiting and/or having darkfriends who can channel of visting Tear:


“A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I’ve heard,” Demandred said in dismissal. “The Tairens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power.”

Mesaana suspected he had more than hearsay to go on. She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa’angreal and launched himself at Rand al’Thor long since. “No doubt there are some in Cairhien and Rhuidean, but even if you do not walk right into al’Thor, both are full of women who can channel.”

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Previously Demandred captured two cities in another Age, so what's to prevent him from attempting to do the very same thing again in this Age?


“Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did—prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren’t murdered out of hand—but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies.

Maybe Tear? Cairhien? Are possible this Age's two cities, for Demandred to conquer?


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Moving back to place in the text where the fashion of lace around the neck is found, its bizarrely enough found in the Eelfinn's own realm!! :eek:

Yet before he completed a second turn there was someone standing on each pedestal, people like his guide, but dressed differently. Four were men, the others women, their stiff hair rising in a crest before spilling down their backs. All wore long white skirts that hid their feet. The women had on white blouses that fell below their hips, with high lace necks and pale ruffles at their wrists. The men wore even more straps than the guide, wider and studded with gold. Each harness supported a pair of bare bladed knives on the wearer’s chest. Bronze blades, Mat judged from the color, but he would have given all the gold in his possession for just one of them.

Has Demandred visited the Eelflinn before?
Previously, I had never really wondered if he did or didn't visit them....



Here are a few of the other lace around the neck references I've found so far:

#1 - Asmodean's fashion:
Asmodean entered, pale lace at the neck and cuffs of his black coat, harpcase slung on his back and a sword at his hip. It might have been winter for the coolness of his face, but his dark eyes were wary.

#2 - Elayne's Queen's Guards:
Her escort was already mounted, to avoid standing in the snow, twenty-odd riders in the white-collared red coats and brightly burnished breastplates and helmets of the Queen’s Guard. Master Ros’ doubt might be explained by the fact that the riders’ coats were silk, as were their red breeches with the white stripe up each leg, and by the pale lace they wore at neck and cuff. They certainly appeared more ceremonial than effective. Or it might have been that they were all women. Women were uncommon in jobs that required using weapons, just the occasional merchants’ guard or a rare woman who turned up in an army during time of war, and Elayne had never heard of a group of all-female soldiers before she created one.

#3 - Berelain wearing what I believe is Mayene and/or Cairhien fashion:

As she walked into the tent, a tall woman in high-necked green silk with small touches of lace at her throat and wrists, black hair falling in waves to her shoulders, laid a hand on Aybara's arm in a familiar manner. Galina recognized her. "She seems cautious, Perrin," Berelain said.

#4 - Tylee's fashion in Ebou Dar:

Tylin turned in a chair carved to look like gilded bamboo and stared at him over her golden winecup. Waves of glossy black hair touched with gray at the temples framed a beautiful face with the eyes of a bird of prey, and not one best pleased at the moment. Inconsequential things seemed to leap at him. She kicked her crossed leg slightly, rippling layered green and white petticoats. Pale green lace trimmed the oval opening in her gown that half exposed her full breasts, where the jeweled hilt of her marriage knife dangled.

#5 - More lace found on the Queen's Guards of Andor:

Each woman wore a bright red hat with a long white plume lying flat along the wide brim, and a wide red sash edged in snowy lace across her chest with rampant White Lions marching up it. Their white-collared crimson coats were silk, and the cut had been altered a little, so they fit better and hung almost to the knee above scarlet breeches with a white stripe up the outsides of the legs. Pale lace hung thickly at their wrists and necks, and their black boots had been waxed till they shone. They looked quite dashing, and even placid-eyed Deni swaggered just a little. Elayne suspected they would be even prouder once the sword belts and scabbards with gold tooling were ready, and the lacquered helmets and breastplates. Birgitte was having breastplates made to fit women, which Elayne suspected had*certainly*made the Palace armorer’s eyes pop!

#5 - Cairhien fashion among the nobles:

Cairhienin upper-class dress reflects their desire for control and order. The people are shorter and more pale-skinned than Andorans, though with darker hair, and the dark colors they prefer contrast with their fair skin. Men and women wear coats and dresses of black or dark blue or green. The darkness is relieved by narrow horizontal slashes of color across the chest and body, and dark ivory lace at the throat and wrists. The number of color slashes indicates the rank of the wearer, while their color indicates the House. A very high ranking lord or lady might have slashes of color from collar to hem, while a lower ranked noble might only have a few slashes across the chest.


Based on the texture references to Demandred's preferred dress fashion of choice, I'd suggest he's been involved in both Tear and Cairhien at multiple times in the story.


Looking at the changes of servant's livery in Cairhien, also hints at changes of their ultimate masters as well, over time in the series. This research into servant's changes of livery over time, I need to finish still...many characters do comment about Cairhien livery in particular from Cadsuane to Samitsu Tamagowa. And Rand never employed nor started an active internal-affair type operation among the Cairhien palace employees either. Unlike Elayne who did search out spies and how to counter them in Caemlyn.


As for darkfriends suspects, who Demandred might influencing. I'd suggest these few individuals as a start:



Lady Ailil (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/ailil_riatin.html) of House Riatin, of Cairhien
High Lord Weiramon (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/uz/weiramon.html) of House Saniago, of Tear




I'd not however suggest nor believe myself that High Lady Anaiyella (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/anaiyella.html) of House Narencelona of Tear is a darkfriend at this time, Let alone under Demandred's thumb. Why?


Capes, Breeches, Heros Hypothesis
The hypothesis that Robert Jordan used "breeches, capes" as a subliminal marker of 'heros' embedded within the storylines; as many other prior ancient writers have done. Anaiyella like Valan Luca, Luca of Rand's Rhuidean visions all have worn "capes".

Min has said, “I abandoned my horse for you, Rand al’Thor. I curled my hair for you. I gave up my*life*for you! I will*not*give up my coat and breeches!

Which is very similar what Elayne mentions about Luca's character:

Not that I think Master Luca would accept work that didn’t allow him to wear that cape.

It's not only the wearing of breeches and/or capes, that make a character into a hero. The actions of a character and why they decide to act are required too. In Anaiyella's case, I believe she saved Rand's life by ordering soldiers under her command to fight the Seanchan thus protecting a fallen Dragon Reborn.

Vaguely he became aware of ululating cries. Horsemen appeared among the trees to the north, galloping along the ridge, some with lowered lances, some working short bows as fast as they could nock and draw. Horsemen in blue-and-yellow armor of overlapping plates, and helmets like huge insects’ heads. Seanchan, several hundred of them it seemed. From the north. So much for Weiramon’s fly.
Rand struggled to reach the Source. Too late to worry about sicking up, or falling on his face. Another time, he might have laughed at that. He struggled . . . It was like fumbling for a pin in the dark with numbed fingers.

Time to die, Lews Therin whispered. Rand had always known Lews Therin would be there at the end.

Not fifty paces from Rand, screaming Tairens and Cairhien plowed into the Seanchan.

“Fight, you dogs!” Anaiyella shrieked, swinging down from her saddle beside him. “Fight!” The willow lady in her silks and laces hurled a string of curses that would have made a wagon driver’s tongue go dry.

Anaiyella stood holding her mount’s reins, glaring from the mill of men and steel to Rand. It was Ailil who turned him onto his back. Kneeling there, she looked down at him with an unreadable expression in her big dark eyes. He could not seem to move. He felt drained. He was not sure he could blink. Screams and the clash of steel rang in his ears.


Implications of this above scene:

Suroth told the Seanchan General about Rand's forces and that he had the ability to Travel. Suroth, we know is a Darkfriend under Semirhage's thumb. And Semirhage is partnered with Demandred.

The fashion style of lace surrounding the neck of nobles is, was common among individuals in Tear, Cairhien, Andor and yes Altarans in Ebou Dar.

Weiramon was out of position big time with his forces during this scene, and Ailil didn't order anyone to defend, protect the Dragon Reborn. Only Anaiyella knowing verbally tried to protect Rand then....

Demandred and Semirhage together are likely a common link in countering Rand in Altara, through their associated darkfriend's actions. With Ishamael checking up their progress, via that bizarre unique link which appears in Rand's head at times during those scenes of battle: "face".


The hypothesis of capes (and breeches) suggests that Anaiyella is 'hero', and that funny enough Ailil's horse is a 'hero' too, but not Ailil, herself is a hero-- in this war scene, just outside of Ebou Dar.


Note there are many, many 'heros' overall in the story. Other characters know to wear "capes" include:


Tuon (Winter's Heart, Ch.14 twice; The Gathering Storm, Ch. 'Gambits')
Davram Bashere (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 21 "Answering the Summons"
Anaiyella (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 23)
Ailil's smoke-grey mare-- but not Ailil herself (The Path of Daggers, Chapter Ch. 22 "Gathering Clouds")
Rodrivar Tihera Captain of the Stone, in Tear (aPoD, Ch.21 "Answering the Summons")
Valan Luca (tFoH book, on pages 187, 230, 233, 545, 547, 555)
Lewin, who's Rand's distant Aiel relative (The Shadow Rising book, pg 291)



I suggest that both Weiramon and Ailil have taken orders at various times from Demandred and/or his pawns in the story.


In the conclusion, Mesaana's fashion clue of Demandred's locations, suggests he is indeed placed within the southern nations, and has taken actions within many of them. From Altara to Tear to Cairhien to Andor.

nameless
01-14-2010, 08:22 PM
There are several quotes throughout the series to the effect that the best lace on the continent is manufactured in Murandy, which is another location which Demandred is suspected of using as a proxy power base.