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Kalli
11-26-2009, 06:17 PM
In TGS Moridin's fortress is mentioned to be in the North Eastern Blight. Complete with advanced stonework and slave community outside of it to presumably help build up his fortress and army.

Could this be whats is left of Malkeri? Fortresses don't just get built overnight right?

Davian93
11-26-2009, 06:53 PM
By "Far northeastern Blight", it was implied that it was more likely the Blight above Shara or the Waste.

Kalli
11-26-2009, 07:59 PM
So much for Lan's forces vs Moridin forces

Davian93
11-26-2009, 08:01 PM
So much for Lan's forces vs Moridin forces

Don't worry, I'm sure there's a massive Trolloc force building at Tarwin's Gap. Lan will have plenty to do when he gets there.

Kalli
11-26-2009, 08:04 PM
Ahh the gap yeah I get that... Lan fighting for his destiny in the ruins of Malkeri would just be a nice plus

reTaardad
11-27-2009, 01:24 AM
In TGS Moridin's fortress is mentioned to be in the North Eastern Blight.
So is this an old fortress that Ishamael built while he was paroled during the Trolloc Wars or Artur Hawkwing's time? I doubt his fortress would ever show up in the books again, but it's interesting to think that he's reclaimed his old home.

Jokeslayer
11-27-2009, 08:13 AM
Ahh the gap yeah I get that... Lan fighting for his destiny in the ruins of Malkeri would just be a nice plus

According to chapter 15 of the BWB, "Tarwin’s Gap, lies in the valley between the mountains of Dhoom and the Dragonwall, at the edge of what used to be the Kingdom of Malkier"

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2009, 08:59 AM
According to chapter 15 of the BWB, "Tarwin’s Gap, lies in the valley between the mountains of Dhoom and the Dragonwall, at the edge of what used to be the Kingdom of Malkier"It would seem quite likely that Malkier had some border fortresses there. Which are undoubtedly in ruins now. So the description would be fairly accurate, I think.

greatwolf
11-27-2009, 09:08 AM
According to chapter 15 of the BWB, "Tarwin’s Gap, lies in the valley between the mountains of Dhoom and the Dragonwall, at the edge of what used to be the Kingdom of Malkier"

Tarwin's gap is a natural choke point that the shadow will likely want to stop the FoL. However in a world with travelling, choke points would be meaningless. Except that RJ once said it was possible to interfere with gateways.

With the help of the forsaken, Rand might be unable to move troops into the blight via gates and he might very well resort to the overland route. IIRC, there are two such points leading into the blight.

Another thing to note is that despite knowledge of interfering with gates, LTT and the hundred compadres still Travelled to SG itself. Perhaps Rand has a few things up his sleeves?

Jokeslayer
11-27-2009, 09:24 AM
As far as I read the conversation it went something like:

Kalli: Moridin's fortress is in Malkier. I hope he fights there, that would be cool

Dav: Actually, Moridin's fortress is nowhere near Malkier. Lan will probably fight at the Gap instead

Kalli: Aw. Lan fighting in Malkier would have been cool.

Me: Given the location of the Gap, Lan fighting there is basically the same thing

Davian93
11-27-2009, 11:53 AM
Tarwin's gap is a natural choke point that the shadow will likely want to stop the FoL. However in a world with travelling, choke points would be meaningless. Except that RJ once said it was possible to interfere with gateways.

With the help of the forsaken, Rand might be unable to move troops into the blight via gates and he might very well resort to the overland route. IIRC, there are two such points leading into the blight.

Another thing to note is that despite knowledge of interfering with gates, LTT and the hundred compadres still Travelled to SG itself. Perhaps Rand has a few things up his sleeves?

Chokepoints aren't meaningless to Shadowspawn...who cannot use gateways to go around them. The Light has a huge advantage in manueverability due to that minor issue.

Also, again, Tarwins Gap is not in the "Far northeastern Blight". Tarwin's Gap IS in Malkier though...or at its border at least. If you look at the inside book flap map, there is a dotted outline of Malkier on the map just north of Shienar. The Gap is the eastern edge of the country.

padfoot89
11-28-2009, 03:47 AM
Another thing to note is that despite knowledge of interfering with gates, LTT and the hundred compadres still Travelled to SG itself. Perhaps Rand has a few things up his sleeves?

They probably did not expect someone to Travel straight to Shayol Ghul itself.

How did the Shadowspawn travel large distances in AoL ? Perhaps through Portal Stones ?

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2009, 06:02 AM
They may have used the flying machines that were then available.

padfoot89
11-28-2009, 08:24 AM
Wow...Trollocs, Myrddraal etc seated and strapped in a plane. That would be an interesting flight. :D

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2009, 08:34 AM
Only problem would be that the cabin crew would get eaten. Apart from that, no worries.

Kalli
11-28-2009, 08:37 AM
not if the Myrddraal are the captains...

RadinReborn
11-28-2009, 08:55 AM
"..This is captain Shaidar Haran speaking, if you look out the windows on your left side you´ll get a nice view of the blight.
We expect some turbulence when we cross the mountains of doom so you might want to strap yourself in.
Flight is going to be a little longer than expected, so try not to eat all the cabin crew at once. We should arrive in Saldea in about 4 hours.."

Belazamon
11-28-2009, 02:47 PM
"This is the captain. We have a little problem with hostile Aes Sedai, so we may experience some slight fireballs, and then... explode."

Belazamon
11-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Could this be whats is left of Malkeri? Fortresses don't just get built overnight right?
And to actually address the main post - that's what I figured as well. It all depends on if Graendal was thinking "east" in terms of the entire continent or just Randland.

Lightfriend
11-28-2009, 03:33 PM
I thought that Moridin is using old Ishamael's fortress, the one where he hosted the darkfriend social in TGH Prologue.

Belazamon
11-28-2009, 04:01 PM
I thought that Moridin is using old Ishamael's fortress, the one where he hosted the darkfriend social in TGH Prologue.
'Fraid not - that chamber was "in the shadow of Shayol Ghul."

FelixPax
12-03-2009, 08:19 PM
Tarwin's gap is a natural choke point that the shadow will likely want to stop the FoL. However in a world with travelling, choke points would be meaningless. Except that RJ once said it was possible to interfere with gateways.

Trollocs cannot survive the use of Traveling Gateways, as Rand shows us in the Knife Dreams book, with his Deathgates weave in the countryside of Tear.

Actually there are more limitations upon the Shadow movement of its own Armies, than only the Gaps along the four Blight border nations.

In the very first book of the series, Lan in Chapter “Dust on the Wind” tells Rand (pov), Perrin (pov), Thom, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve and Moiraine that water is a major limitation in the movement of Trollocs:

“What if there are more outside the walls?” Mat asked. “What are we going to do?”
“We will use my original plan,” Moiraine said. Lan looked at her. She held up a hand and added, “Which I was too tired to carry out before. But I am rested, now, thanks to the Wisdom. We will make for the river. There, with our backs guarded by the water, I can raise a smaller ward that will hold the Trollocs and Halfmen back until we can make rafts and cross over. Or better yet, we may even be able to hail a trader’s boat coming down from Saldaea.”
The faces of the Emond’s Fielders looked blank. Lan noticed.
“Trollocs and Myrddraal loathe deep water. Trollocs are terrified of it. Neither can swim. A Halfman will not wade anything more than waist deep, especially if it’s moving. Trollocs won’t do even that if they can find any way to avoid it.”
“So once we get across the river we’re safe,” Rand said, and the Warder nodded.
“The Myddraal will find it almost as hard to make the Trollocs build rafts as it was to drive them into Shadar Logoth, and if they try to make them cross the Arinelle that way, half will run away and the rest probably drown.”
“Get to your horses,” Moiraine said. “We are not across the river yet.”

Since the Shadow lacks the ability to use Traveling weave to move its armies of Trollocs around alive, and large rivers of water represent a large dividing in the Westlands; whom ever controls the bridges in Maradon and Whitebridge will help determine the outcome of T'G to a degree. (Yes, Rand's role is more far important....)

There are other bridges across the south of Whitebridge, however those are on the Manetherendrelle River not the Arinelle River. The maps of the Westlands imply at least three bridges crossing the Manetherendrelle River (or huge numbers of ferry crossings), with all three of those unnamed bridges on the way to Murandy:


Jehannah Road to Lugard
Illian to Lugard Road - crossing at Remen (which is where Perrin freed Gaul from Whitecloaks, too)
Ebou Dar to Lugard Road.


These five bridges should be major chokes points for Trollocs in the next two books. Why? Because they separate the few unclosed Ogier Waygates locations in the Black Hills, and along Shadow Coast sheddings. Those few Waygates are one way the Shadow can move large numbers of Trollocs relatively unseen.

Yet the Waygates were tainted by both the Shadow and Shadar Logoth evils...via the Waygates in the Blight & the former Aridhol Waygates. ((Speculation within these brackets: That's why Padan Fain wasn't killed by the Machin Shin likely, as Fain was marked by both Shadar Logoth & the Dark One. Its a guess. Yet the *Finns seems to have marked Mordeth, as well. This probably is a good topic for another thread. Moving on.)) So I wonder what the lost rate of Trollocs is, using the Ways as a transportation method?

This unknown lost rate of using the Ways has to be, weighed against the uses of those Trollocs in directly attacking the city of Maradon and gaining control of the bridges crossing the Arinelle River. Maradon & Whitebridge bridges are each major choke points.

Likewise the border area between Tarabon & Amadicia is another important choke point; if one wants to move Trollocs later into Ghealdan, Amadicia, Two Rivers et la. Why? Direct access to the Mountains of the Mists gives one the ability to attacks almost anywhere in the southwestern nations at will.


-------------------------------------------------------


Moving from the known facts to the far more speculative ideas, it might be possible for the Shadow to move Trollocs by air. However, that assumes the Shadow has access to the To'raken like birds of Shara, as Valan Luca once described to Elayne, Nynaeve, Thom and Juilin. This would tied into a speculative theory that the Shadow ultimately controls Shara currently, be it Demandred and/or Moridin. Demandred was a General after all, and an airborne attack would seem to fit his style I think.


To continue on to another speculative thought, the nation of Murandy indirectly controls three of the five implied bridges crossing the Manetherendrelle River, yet Murandy is a wild card with a large Seanchan army on its border. (Technically those three bridges are outside of Murandy proper, but each route leds to into Murandy. Thus indirect control.) Not to mention that the Seanchan raid on the White Tower led all those to'raken across Murandy, not Ghealdan, nor across the northern reaches of Altara. So do the Seanchan now indirectly control Murandy? Did Padan Fain return home to advise his new King to strike back at the White Tower, Andor, Illian and the Shadow? Fain has dealt with the Seanchan before in Falme, why not once again as an advisor to a new King of Murandy? It seems to fit together, too well.

In a twilight of despair during the Trolloc Wars, when it seemed the Father of Lies must surely conquer, the man called Mordeth came to Balwen’s court.”

Substitute a past King Balwen of Aridhol for a current King Roedran of Murandy, in yet another time of, 'twilight of despair of darkness'. So the Wheels turns again. I doubt it was an accident that Padan Fain disappeared from the series when he did. He was last seen in alive in Winter's Heart, which came just before the Crossroads of Twilight book. A hint maybe? Enough time to corrupt a whole nation, as Verin implies is possible with that Dagger inset with a Red Ruby? Murandy corrupted?

“But he will have those months, now,” Moiraine said sharply. “And if it can be retrieved, the link can still be broken.” If it can be retrieved. Yes, of course.
“It can still be broken,” Verin agreed. She was a plump, square-faced woman, and even with the Aes Sedai gift of agelessness, there was a touch of gray in her brown hair. That was her only sign of age, but for an Aes Sedai it meant she was very old indeed. Her voice held steady, though, matching her smooth cheeks. “He has been linked to the dagger a long time, however, as a thing like that must be reckoned. And he will be linked longer yet, whether it is found or not. He may already be changed beyond the reach of full Healing, even if no longer enough to contaminate others. Such a small thing, that dagger,” she mused, “but it will corrupt whoever carries it long enough. He who carries it will in turn corrupt those who come in contact with him, and they will corrupt still others, and the hatred and suspicion that destroyed Shadar Logoth, every man and woman’s hand turned against every other, will be loose in the world again. I wonder how many people it can taint in, say a year. It should be possible to calculate a reasonable approximation.”



More speculation: In regards to Moridin's fortress, he's has lived for at least 3,000 years...there has to be a good reason why that Black Fortress seems to be located in the far northeast part of the Blight. What would a man do day to day for that long of a period of time? Create the Black Ajah, yes, but what else? Govern indirectly the nation(s) of Shara from his little black fortress maybe???

Davian93
12-03-2009, 09:13 PM
Trollocs cannot survive the use of Traveling Gateways, as Rand shows us in the Knife Dreams book, with his Deathgates weave in the countryside of

Yes, that was already mentioned earlier in the thread as a huge tactical advantage for the Light.

Bonzi77
12-03-2009, 09:20 PM
Has there been any discussion on whether shadowspawn can be transported by the True Power?

Davian93
12-03-2009, 09:24 PM
Has there been any discussion on whether shadowspawn can be transported by the True Power?

No but we've been told that a gateway cannot be used and that the power is essentially just a power source making things no different.

However, we also have been told that Traveling is different with the True Power.

Interesting question.

Ozymandias
12-03-2009, 09:33 PM
T
To continue on to another speculative thought, the nation of Murandy indirectly controls three of the five implied bridges crossing the Manetherendrelle River, yet Murandy is a wild card with a large Seanchan army on its border. (Technically those three bridges are outside of Murandy proper, but each route leds to into Murandy. Thus indirect control.) Not to mention that the Seanchan raid on the White Tower led all those to'raken across Murandy, not Ghealdan, nor across the northern reaches of Altara. So do the Seanchan now indirectly control Murandy? Did Padan Fain return home to advise his new King to strike back at the White Tower, Andor, Illian and the Shadow? Fain has dealt with the Seanchan before in Falme, why not once again as an advisor to a new King of Murandy? It seems to fit together, too well.

Its almost a moot point. For all that Roedran has more power these days, he's still barely more than a trumped up lord. At the first sign of his trying to corral them one way or another, the Murandian nobles will almost certainly turn against him.


More speculation: In regards to Moridin's fortress, he's has lived for at least 3,000 years...there has to be a good reason why that Black Fortress seems to be located in the far northeast part of the Blight. What would a man do day to day for that long of a period of time? Create the Black Ajah, yes, but what else? Govern indirectly the nation(s) of Shara from his little black fortress maybe???

I can think of several reasons he'd choose an isolated place for a residence. He doesn't want to be found, namely. Not by normal people, not by the Chosen, by no one. In addition, he hasn't been living there for 3,000 years. By all accounts, its only been a little while, in fact. I was under the impression he was living in the ruins of Malkier. Besides, he's Ishamael, I'm sure he's got lots to think about, philosophy and such. I mean, hell, what does Graendal do all day long? Saying he'd get bored sitting all by his lonesome is ridiculous in a world with instant movement (or near instant). He's got just as much freedom and accessibility from the remotest corner of the planet as he does in the middle of downtown Caemlyn, and gets the privacy and isolation he wants besides. If he's not directly controlling a faction, a la Mesaana or Aran'gar, its hardly important that he not have his finger on the hourly pulse of the world.

FelixPax
12-04-2009, 12:39 AM
Its almost a moot point. For all that Roedran has more power these days, he's still barely more than a trumped up lord. At the first sign of his trying to corral them one way or another, the Murandian nobles will almost certainly turn against him.

What Murandy nobles will rebel against King Roedran?

When their own nation is seemingly threatened by almost every neighbor around militarily and/or politically in the past two years? Even the Whitecloaks, Prophet's Dragonsworn, and the Shiado Aiel got into the act of threatening and/or attacking areas within Murandy. The new Queen of Andor Elayne suggested sending the Borderlanders armies to Murandy as a distraction. Then the newest Amyrlin Seat Egwene recently re-drew the border between Andor & Murandy in favor of Andor, during Salidar's march to Tar Valon before camping in the face of Andoran three High Noble Houses armies, according to Gareth Bryne. Even Logain created chaos within Murandy, before being captured by the Siuan's pre-split White Tower Aes Sedai in a battle, and now he's one of the Dragon Reborn's leaders of the Asha'man.

With almost every outside neighbor nation hostile, there's no time to rebel now with multiple armies on their borders. Rebel and risk losing everything within Murandy, why? The Murandians simply do not have much trust at all, with outsiders now. Fear, and a drawing inward is what the Murandians have been doing.

The life blood of Murandy was wagon trains of cargo between the various nations of the Westlands, by undercutting everyone else's costs with smuggling. Now few merchants want to do business in Murandy, unless its at a premium price (Verin's pov to Mat in tGS). The smuggling route into Altara doesn't exist anymore as well (KoD book). And the western markets of Ghealdan & Amacidia simply do not exist more, from Murandian merchant traders point of view (Mat's pov in KoD).

The only neighboring nation not to threaten Murandy at any one point in the series, was Altara under Beslan's mother. Seeing that the Seanchan reached an agreement with Beslan to increase his political control over Altara, should give the King of Murandy an opening to a similar agreement with the Seanchan Empire as well. Better than being invaded, a treaty with Fortuona?


This suggestion of a possible treaty with the Seanchan is the great unknown I think. I'm not sure how Padan Fain would spin this, as he badly wants to kill Rand...and who do the Seanchan want to invade now? A nation led currently by Rand, Illian. Fortuona, King Roedran, and Padan Fain's interests all would indeed align in creating an alliance to attack Illian, in fact. Its a good possibility all in all.

Rebellions cost lots $$$, and do High Houses of Murandy have the resources to fight and defend themselves from all the seemingly hostile outsiders, the Dark One, the Shiado Aiel, Dragonsworn, and rebel their very own King??? No, no way.

Murandy isn't Cairhien nor Tear. Murandy has been in a very tough spot for a long time now.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Since Mordeth disliked Tar Valon intensely, he'd dislike a nation ruled by a full Aes Sedai --> Caemyln in Andor, as well.

“You are not alone?” Mordeth said. He had let them rush past him into the treasure room, but now he followed. “Who else is with you?”
Mat, wrist deep in the riches before him, answered absently.
“Moiraine and Lan. And then there’s Nynaeve, and Egwene, and Thom. He’s a gleeman. We’re going to Tar Valon.”
Rand caught his breath. Then the silence from Mordeth made him look at the man.
Rage twisted Mordeth’s face, and fear, too. His lips pulled back from his teeth. “Tar Valon!” He shook clenched fists at them. “Tar Valon! You said you were going to this … this … Caemlyn! You lied to me!”

So why wouldn't Padan Fain as an advisor to the King Murandy, suggest him reaching out to the one organization able and willing to attack his neighbors whom he fears? The Seanchan Empire.

Of course, this above idea assumes that Demandred is not in fact indirectly controlling Murandy. And that Padan Fain isn't instead re-creating a fortress nation-state as an advisor to the King; Murandy against World...Shadow, Light, White Tower, Asha'man, Seanchan Empire etc...in a nutshell everyone else be damned.

lurk
12-10-2009, 11:09 AM
Damn I havge trouble finding it. There is a passage in TSR IIRC where there is an attack on Rand and there is evidence of a gatway used (razor slices scrubs IIRC) this was an attack with shadowspawn. But they could not have passed through a gateway.

need some help to find it guys.

And does anyone know WHY shadowspawn cannot pass through gateways? Every other living creature can. Trollocs are alive right? They breed and evrything

GonzoTheGreat
12-10-2009, 11:21 AM
What you're saying sounds suspiciously like the attack on Mat, after which some cut greenery was found. But he was attacked by Aiel, not Shadowspawn, that time.
In TSR there generally wasn't enough greenery around where Rand was for any to get cut. Until he entered Cairhien, at least, but the Shadowspawn stopped bothering him then.

And there are quite a lot of people who know why they can't pass through gateways. I'm not sure any two of them agree with each other, but they usually do have strong opinions on it nonetheless.

lurk
12-10-2009, 11:26 AM
seems I needs to do a reread (again :))

Bonzi77
12-10-2009, 11:42 AM
No but we've been told that a gateway cannot be used and that the power is essentially just a power source making things no different.

However, we also have been told that Traveling is different with the True Power.

Interesting question.

We've actually been shown that Traveling with the TP is different. In the prologue, Ishamael sort of fades in when he travels to Lews Therin's home, without use of a gateway.

frenchie
12-11-2009, 12:04 PM
Shadowspawn cannot survive passing through a gateway due to them being a Construct. And since the Nym and Chora Trees are Constructs as well, they'd die as well if they passed through a gateway.