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kasper11
11-27-2009, 11:19 AM
Moiraine's letter to Rand mentioned not trusting two Aes Sedai in particular...Verin and Alviarin. We now know that these two were both black ajah, which leaves a couple of possibilities...

1) Coincidence. Moiraine mentioned Alviarin because of the letter and Rand because he spent time with Verin. Seems like a big coincidence to me.

2) Deduction. Alviarin's letter was too flowery, and she realized Verin had lied about Moiraine sending her in TGH. This also seems doubtful. It would be just as likely that Alviariin's letter was flowery as part of a good cop/bad cop plot with Elaida, and without knowing Verin's exact words Moiraine could not have known she lied.

3) Somehow, Moiraine, who has hardly been in the tower for 20 years knew the two were black ajah. Could have something to do with the ter'angeal in Rhuidian or an answer from the Finns, but I find it very interesting how she knows what nobody else does, even people who spend a lot of time around Verin and Alviarin.


sorry if this has been discussed, didn't notice it anywhere.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2009, 11:24 AM
Well, there is the added fact that Rand wasn't showing many signs of trusting any other AS he knew about, so he didn't have to be warned about them. He was not very eager to trust Elaida, for instance.

The only two (apart from Moiraine) for whom he even considered the possibility of trusting them at that point were indeed Alviarin and Verin.
Alviarin, because of her letter.
Verin, because of the help she'd given in the past.

I don't think that it is a big coincidence, when you look at it in that way. Which other AS could she have mentioned to him at that time? She didn't even know that Cadsuane was still alive, let alone that that woman would turn up to take charge of Rand.

WinespringBrother
11-27-2009, 12:03 PM
While Verin was Black Ajah, she was also one of the most trustworthy Aes Sedai as it turns out. And she made an even greater sacrifice than Moiraine for Rand's and the greater good's benefit.

Kurtz
11-27-2009, 05:30 PM
While Verin was Black Ajah, she was also one of the most trustworthy Aes Sedai as it turns out. And she made an even greater sacrifice than Moiraine for Rand's and the greater good's benefit.

I think Verin was awesome, but we have no idea what she did in the name of the shadow, forced or otherwise. To gain the level of trust necessary to gather all the information would suggest she would have had to prove herself on numerous occasions. Who knows what heinous acts she had on her conscience. I'm sure many good Aes Sedai chose to die rather than join the BA as she did.

She was the worst/best kind of Machiavellian Prince(ss) and her work was remarkable, but I don't think she should be lionised.

Trutino
11-28-2009, 01:26 AM
I'm convinced that Moiraine was tipped off in tGH when Verin says she had her first hint about the birth of the Dragon twenty years before. Moiraine (probably rightly) assumed that Verin heard about this when the BA started their killing spree after the Aiel War.

Terez
11-28-2009, 01:47 AM
I think she probably suspected both of them, but if she had really thought either was Black with anything approaching surety, I think she would have said so.

And really, I wonder if Verin really did any worse to prove herself to the Black than Moiraine did for other reasons. I'm not saying it's not possible, but Moiraine showed herself willing to kill people for merely being inconvenient.

WinespringBrother
11-28-2009, 01:57 AM
I think Verin was awesome, but we have no idea what she did in the name of the shadow, forced or otherwise. To gain the level of trust necessary to gather all the information would suggest she would have had to prove herself on numerous occasions. Who knows what heinous acts she had on her conscience. I'm sure many good Aes Sedai chose to die rather than join the BA as she did.

She was the worst/best kind of Machiavellian Prince(ss) and her work was remarkable, but I don't think she should be lionised.

On the contrary, she did what she had to, ultimately for the Light, so whoever got in her way gave their lives for a good cause. She kept her eyes on the goal, unlike Mordeth who got swallowed by evil. And her sacrifice is for Rand's hopeful future victory.

jason wolfbrother
11-28-2009, 04:50 AM
Agreed. She did what was necessary without being consumed as Mordeth was or even being tainted by her association with the BA.

Laela
11-28-2009, 08:07 PM
I think Verin was awesome, but we have no idea what she did in the name of the shadow, forced or otherwise. To gain the level of trust necessary to gather all the information would suggest she would have had to prove herself on numerous occasions. Who knows what heinous acts she had on her conscience. I'm sure many good Aes Sedai chose to die rather than join the BA as she did.

Something that has been nagging at me ever since I read the Verin passage is how she was referring very casually to the "Chosen" and the "Great Lord" during her conversation with Egwene. We have seen points of view from her previously in which she thinks about "forsaken", but in her hour of death (and betrayal of the Black), she uses these terms aloud.

I can think of a couple of reasons for this shift

- if BA refer to "Chosen" and "Great Lord" in their everyday thought, they are more likely to slip in speech (I don't buy this one, as we've read inner dialogue by Galina and Alviarin)
- RJ didn't want to "out" her in prior books before the "big reveal"
- BS/RJ crafted this scene with Verin using Black Ajah language to make the big reveal even more shocking

This was by far my most favorite chapter as I've been wondering about Verin and her mistake since she lied about Moiraine sending her to the boys. Maybe I am obsessing about Verin a bit, but to me, the language she uses doesn't add up with her double-crossing the Dark.

Was anyone else struck by this, and I missed the thread with that conversation? :confused:

-Laela

Weird Harold
11-28-2009, 08:49 PM
I can think of a couple of reasons for this shift

...
- BS/RJ crafted this scene with Verin using Black Ajah language to make the big reveal even more shocking


I think you missed the point that Verin was trying to shock Egwene into paying very close attention to her.

Kurtz
11-28-2009, 08:57 PM
I think you missed the point that Verin was trying to shock Egwene into paying very close attention to her.


Reckon she got that from the off, no?

Weird Harold
11-28-2009, 09:05 PM
Reckon she got that from the off, no?
Verin didn't push the point too much beyond the first few moments except as required to keep the "I'mnot who you thought I was" vibe up front.

Kurtz
11-28-2009, 09:14 PM
Verin didn't push the point too much beyond the first few moments except as required to keep the "I'mnot who you thought I was" vibe up front.

I think the shock was done, the rest was reassurance!

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 04:23 AM
Moiraine's letter to Rand mentioned not trusting two Aes Sedai in particular...Verin and Alviarin. We now know that these two were both black ajah, which leaves a couple of possibilities...

I beleive Moiraine had a lot more to go on. By this time she was aware of Verin's schemeing as she was one of the three that announced to Rand he was the DR. But sometime after that, Suian was toppled and Elaida/Alvi came to power in circumstances that could have been associated with knowledge of Suian's involvement with Rand. And of course, Moiraine's messages concerning the BA never got a reply.

The letter to Rand was clearly set up to draw him to the WT by alvi but Elaida's was just a red scheming. Moiraine knew that Rand wouldn't go near Elaida but also knew enough to be distrustful of alviarhin.

Daekyras
11-29-2009, 02:53 PM
I think Verin was awesome, but we have no idea what she did in the name of the shadow, forced or otherwise. To gain the level of trust necessary to gather all the information would suggest she would have had to prove herself on numerous occasions. Who knows what heinous acts she had on her conscience. I'm sure many good Aes Sedai chose to die rather than join the BA as she did.

She was the worst/best kind of Machiavellian Prince(ss) and her work was remarkable, but I don't think she should be lionised.

I completely agree. I don't have my book here but when Egwene tells Sheriam it was Verin who revealed the BA Sheriam reacts in shock. It reads, iirc, like it is not shock that Verin was black but shock that Verin would BETRAY the black....

Davian93
11-29-2009, 02:56 PM
I completely agree. I don't have my book here but when Egwene tells Sheriam it was Verin who revealed the BA Sheriam reacts in shock. It reads, iirc, like it is not shock that Verin was black but shock that Verin would BETRAY the black....

It reads as if Verin is also one of the leaders of the Black Ajah and probably quite a devoted member on the outside.

For the leadership council of the Black Ajah we have the following members:

Head - Alviarin
Galina - Confirmed member of the council
Sheriam - Confirmed member of the council
Verin - Suspected member due to her knowledge of them as well as Sheriam's reaction.

jana
11-29-2009, 09:36 PM
Yes, Sheriam's comment was something like "I'd never have expected that from that one." That led me to believe that Verin had definitely done some bad things.

Kurtz
11-29-2009, 09:50 PM
Yes, Sheriam's comment was something like "I'd never have expected that from that one." That led me to believe that Verin had definitely done some bad things.

That's a bit of a leap! There's no definite about it. It could be because Verin was thought of as a bit absent-minded, or perhaps easily cowed and spineless etc.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-30-2009, 10:38 AM
Sheriam - Confirmed member of the council

I disagree. Unless I missed something, Sheriam is not confirmed as a council member. She talks of how she was promised "power", and it can be assumed she was given it...as the KEEPER of the rebels, but that is just an interpretation. Is there something specific indicating she was on the Supreme Council?

I surmised it in another thread a while back, but I never saw confirmation anywhere.

Davian93
11-30-2009, 10:48 AM
I disagree. Unless I missed something, Sheriam is not confirmed as a council member. She talks of how she was promised "power", and it can be assumed she was given it...as the KEEPER of the rebels, but that is just an interpretation. Is there something specific indicating she was on the Supreme Council?

I surmised it in another thread a while back, but I never saw confirmation anywhere.

Egwene states that Verin said Sheriam was among the "Leadership" of the Black Ajah during the Hall session where she confronts her in tGS. I am inferring that "leadership" means member of the Supreme Council.

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 11:26 AM
Egwene states that Verin said Sheriam was among the "Leadership" of the Black Ajah during the Hall session where she confronts her in tGS. I am inferring that "leadership" means member of the Supreme Council.

It stands to reason. Alviarin was the Keeper in the Tower after the split. It doesn't seem likely that they would go through all the trouble to divide the Tower and then not put a higher-up in a seat of power with the rebels. If Sheriam was just a random underling, the Black Ajah's contingent in Salidar seems very underwhelming.

Davian93
11-30-2009, 11:45 AM
Ironic that Sheriam and Moria (?..the Blue Sitter) were likely a big part of the impetus for fighting back against Elaida and ensuring a violent split.

Did we ever determine who Hammar Gaidin was actually a Warder for? He's the one who led the Warders to free Siuan but there's never any mention of "Poor so and so and her warder Hammar".