PDA

View Full Version : I R Stoopid


isamu237
11-27-2009, 05:59 PM
I'm on my second read of TGS, and I ended up reading Chapter 15 (A Place To Begin) twice last night. It occurs to me that this may be the most important chapter in the book. There's something about the meeting of Rand and Moridin, both the setting and content, that I can't quite put my finger on. I just feel like I'm missing something, and something important.
Thoughts?
Comments?
Name-calling?

Kurtz
11-27-2009, 06:02 PM
Read the bit about the curtains again. Very carefully.

I missed it the first few times.

isamu237
11-27-2009, 06:55 PM
Curtains?

Terez
11-27-2009, 07:54 PM
I'm on my second read of TGS, and I ended up reading Chapter 15 (A Place To Begin) twice last night. It occurs to me that this may be the most important chapter in the book.
I got the same feeling. A few important things were covered in that chapter.
1. Rand intends to actually destroy the Dark One. That's pretty new.
2. Moridin confirms that the link is strengthening; he can feel Rand's pain, and he suspects that if one kills the other, the other will die also.
3. Rand and Min argue real vs. construct.
4. Rand claims belief in barrier degradation.
5. Rand believes that Lews Therin's memories will give him what he needs to defeat the Dark One.

etc. That's just off the top of my head, but I know there was more good stuff in there...I have been waiting for Rand to figure out who his 'other one' was for a while now.

Weird Harold
11-27-2009, 08:10 PM
I got the same feeling. A few important things were covered in that chapter.
1. Rand intends to actually destroy the Dark One. That's pretty new.
2. Moridin confirms that the link is strengthening; he can feel Rand's pain, and he suspects that if one kills the other, the other will die also.
3. Rand and Min argue real vs. construct.
4. Rand claims belief in barrier degradation.
5. Rand believes that Lews Therin's memories will give him what he needs to defeat the Dark One.

etc. That's just off the top of my head, but I know there was more good stuff in there...I have been waiting for Rand to figure out who his 'other one' was for a while now.
but contrary to Kurtz' advice, there are no curtains in that chapter.

(FWIW, the word curtain(s) only appears once in tGS, and that is when Mat returns to Hinderstap the morning after.)

Terez
11-27-2009, 08:18 PM
Yes, well...Kurtz was being facetious, I'm sure. I'll give him some extra credit and assume he was making a reference to the curtains of the abandoned village in book 1.

Ieyasu
11-27-2009, 08:31 PM
Yes, well...Kurtz was being facetious, I'm sure. I'll give him some extra credit and assume he was making a reference to the curtains of the abandoned village in book 1.

You mean book 2 right? Fain's timeloop trap?

Terez
11-27-2009, 08:32 PM
You mean book 2 right? Fain's timeloop trap?
Nope. Book 1, between the Waygate and Fal Dara.

Kalli
11-27-2009, 08:35 PM
I just reread that chapter twice looking for curtains...

Ieyasu
11-27-2009, 08:37 PM
Nope. Book 1, between the Waygate and Fal Dara.

Why would those curtains have any significance?

isamu237
11-27-2009, 10:12 PM
Yeah, Terez, all big and important stuff. But it seems like there's something under the surface I'm just not seeing. A deeper meaning to Rand being there in the first place.

On an unrelated note, did anyone else notice parallels between Ch22 (The Last That Could Be Done) and 1984?

Terez
11-28-2009, 12:51 AM
Why would those curtains have any significance?
lol...because they signified that the villagers had abandoned their homes recently. It was a small detail that meant something.

I haven't read 1984. I tried to a few times, but couldn't get into it. Anyway, you're talking about some sort of hidden reason why Rand showed up in Moridin's dream? Did you see the quote where Brandon says that Rand's and Moridin's souls are often woven together, like Birgitte and Gaidal? That, along with the link between them, seems enough reason to me.

I wonder if Rand is going to win Moridin over to the Light! It would be a neat ending, for Moridin to go out somewhat like Ingtar. But there aren't any prophecies hinting at it from what I can see, other than Rand's horse. :(

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2009, 04:57 AM
Perhaps Rand was once again stuffed into Ba'alzamon's presence by the Creator. That's happened before (at the Eye of the World), and it was in the same chamber which he visited then.

RadinReborn
11-28-2009, 07:43 AM
I keep thinking it was all manipulation from Moridin. Moving or controlling the Fisher piece to a particular location.

Just so happen there was two chairs, one for Moridin and one for his "surprise" visitor.

Moridin just so happen to mention that he is annoyed with Semirhage, and that balefire would be the thing to use if killing forsaken were your kind of thing.

And shockingly, Rand uses balefire to kill Semirhage, apparently through his link with Moridin. Even seeing his face before getting hold of TP (iīm assuming its Moridin anyway, i doubt it is Mat..)


Oh..and how come Rands "pieces" fit together at that meeting? He sounds like his personalities have merged (or what you want to call it) when he uses Moridins real first name:

"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didnīt it?"

Lews Therin was gone, Rand states so when he talkes to Min later.
And Moridin specifically states that the great Lord could grant him sanity, and Rand replies with another Lews Therin memory and muses that he feels more stable.

Terez
11-28-2009, 08:30 AM
The pieces of himself fit together better there because it's Tel'aran'rhiod. It was the same when he went there before in the flesh, and it was the same with Birgitte returned there after having been ripped out.

ShadowbaneX
11-28-2009, 08:42 AM
The pieces of himself fit together better there because it's Tel'aran'rhiod. It was the same when he went there before in the flesh, and it was the same with Birgitte returned there after having been ripped out.
ie if TAR is a reflection of all worlds quite a few of the Rand's out there might be doing better, ergo he's doing better...either that or his subconscious is better put together then he is. Or I'm just making stuff up as I go along. I might make a poll.

Actually, I hate polls, so screw that idea.

Terez
11-28-2009, 09:36 AM
ie if TAR is a reflection of all worlds quite a few of the Rand's out there might be doing better, ergo he's doing better...
Tel'aran'rhiod is not a reflection of all worlds; the other worlds all have different reflections. I'm talking more about the fact that Heroes go to Tel'aran'rhiod in the afterlife, and remember all of their lives there.

greatwolf
11-28-2009, 12:24 PM
I keep thinking it was all manipulation from Moridin. Moving or controlling the Fisher piece to a particular location.

How you interpret the passage depends on how many personalities you think are involved. Rand and Moridin could be manipulated by LT. But it is doubtful LT and Rand could be manipulated by Moridin in this fashion.

kivo
11-28-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm on my second read of TGS, and I ended up reading Chapter 15 (A Place To Begin) twice last night. It occurs to me that this may be the most important chapter in the book. There's something about the meeting of Rand and Moridin, both the setting and content, that I can't quite put my finger on. I just feel like I'm missing something, and something important.
Thoughts?
Comments?
Name-calling?

The only thing I've got for you is that it's the same exact room / hallway with many doors from Rand's initial meeting with Ishy in The Eye of the World.

Bonzi77
11-28-2009, 04:08 PM
I think Rand's planned killing of the Dark One needs more discussion. Could he even attempt such a thing without destroying the pattern, which would give the Dark One the victory he wants?

isamu237
11-28-2009, 04:13 PM
I wonder if Rand is going to win Moridin over to the Light! It would be a neat ending, for Moridin to go out somewhat like Ingtar. But there aren't any prophecies hinting at it from what I can see, other than Rand's horse. :(

It sounds cheessy at first, but there's something to that.
If Ishy can be believed (and I understand that's a big IF), the Light's Hero has been turned in other ages, in other turnings. Well, why not the Dark's Hero? I seriously doubt that's going to happen here, but just random wild speculation makes me wonder if Ishy has ever pulled a Vader.

jason wolfbrother
11-28-2009, 07:12 PM
Why would killing the DO destroy the Pattern? The DO is imprisoned by the Pattern. He is not a part of the Pattern. His only connection to the Pattern is that it forms his Prison.

Kalli
11-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Why would killing the DO destroy the Pattern? The DO is imprisoned by the Pattern. He is not a part of the Pattern. His only connection to the Pattern is that it forms his Prison.

What if the pattern is like a 'wheel' :eek: and the DO is imprisoned in the middle. Can the wheel survive with out its wooden hub? No, with no support from the inside the structure collapses. That's why I think the creator built the pattern like a wheel and intended for the DO to have a role to play.

HES AIN'T LORD OF DA GRAVE FOR NOTHIN YA KNO. :cool:

jason wolfbrother
11-29-2009, 12:42 AM
What if the pattern is like a 'wheel' :eek: and the DO is imprisoned in the middle. Can the wheel survive with out its wooden hub? No, with no support from the inside the structure collapses. That's why I think the creator built the pattern like a wheel and intended for the DO to have a role to play.

HES AIN'T LORD OF DA GRAVE FOR NOTHIN YA KNO. :cool:

Imprisoned in the middle is not the same as being the hub the wheel spins around. The DO and the Creator are opposites. the Pattern itself gives it the support it needs to be. the DO doesn't.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 04:27 AM
I think Rand's planned killing of the Dark One needs more discussion. Could he even attempt such a thing without destroying the pattern, which would give the Dark One the victory he wants?I think it might be more accurate to say that that's the victory the DO does not want.

Kalli
11-29-2009, 06:15 AM
Imprisoned in the middle is not the same as being the hub the wheel spins around. The DO and the Creator are opposites. the Pattern itself gives it the support it needs to be. the DO doesn't.

Jokes aside, creator made the everything including the thinness (or a patch) in the pattern that allowed someone to sense the DO. Wether Lanfear was the first or not is irrelevant because the thinness had to be there in the first place.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 06:45 AM
Well, the thinnness could have been caused by the DO. He did have all of the Second Age (and who knows how long before that), to spend chipping away at his prison. If he had focused on just one part of the wall around him, then that part might have become weakened. Which would have been perceived as a thinness, of course.

Kalli
11-29-2009, 07:01 AM
Well, the thinnness could have been caused by the DO. He did have all of the Second Age (and who knows how long before that), to spend chipping away at his prison. If he had focused on just one part of the wall around him, then that part might have become weakened. Which would have been perceived as a thinness, of course.

So you are suggesting that the creator is fallible? That his prison is not adequate?

Terez
11-29-2009, 07:22 AM
It seems to be designed to be inadequate. The occasional weakening of the prison is what gives the Pattern balance.

Kalli
11-29-2009, 07:31 AM
It seems to be designed to be inadequate. The occasional weakening of the prison is what gives the Pattern balance.

Semantics, but I think the creator wanted it this way. Ala the Matrix where people could not handle a perfect world and had to have corruption in it due to the inherit flaws in humanity.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 07:39 AM
I have no doubt that the Creator is fallible. He is far, far more capable than humans and such, of course. But, if one accepts the view that the Creator and the Dark One are evenly matched (which is one of the foundations of the whole WOT universe), then it follows logically that the DO can get around anything the Creator has done, eventually.
It is the dynamic attributes of the Wheel which solve this static problem, by casting up ever new ways in which the DO is bound. Any purely permanent bond would get broken.

Kalli
11-29-2009, 08:09 AM
I have no doubt that the Creator is fallible. He is far, far more capable than humans and such, of course. But, if one accepts the view that the Creator and the Dark One are evenly matched (which is one of the foundations of the whole WOT universe), then it follows logically that the DO can get around anything the Creator has done, eventually.
It is the dynamic attributes of the Wheel which solve this static problem, by casting up ever new ways in which the DO is bound. Any purely permanent bond would get broken.

First if the creator and the DO are evenly matched how is it the creator built the pattern and the DO did nothing except let himself be imprisoned in it. I don't see any way for us to find out, I just don't buy it.

I think with out the DO time would be linear and not circular. It's because of the DO that human's knowledge waxes and wanes. For instance if the war in AoL never happened things would of continued grow and progress. It's because of the war with the DO that things regressed. Thus creating the Ages.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 08:18 AM
Hypothetical scenario:
The Creator is happily working in his workshop, building a Wheel of Time. The DO comes along, and tries to ambush his enemy. But at the last moment, he steps on a squeeky toy, the Creator turns around and they wrestle. During this altercation, the DO is thrown into the almost finished WoT. The Creator slams shut the door, and then welds it shut before it came be opened from inside. Then he starts the thing spinning. If things had turned out just a bit differently, it would have been the Creator who was locked up, or even dead.

Bryan Blaire
11-29-2009, 09:42 AM
Unless it is the Dragon Soul's healing of the Bore each time that gives it the "weakness/thinness" allowing it to be found the next turning...

After all, can the Dragon (even the full memories Dragon) ever do as well as the Creator could?

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 09:59 AM
Why not?
It's not as if Rand has to build the whole prison from scratch; all he needs to do is patch up a few holes, give it a new outside paint job and then find someone to sign the bill.

padfoot89
11-29-2009, 11:40 AM
If the DO is a serious threat to the Creator, I can't see why he wouldn't interfere and make sure he doesn't get free.

Kalli
11-29-2009, 11:46 AM
Why not?
It's not as if Rand has to build the whole prison from scratch; all he needs to do is patch up a few holes, give it a new outside paint job and then find someone to sign the bill.

The creator made the pattern, the pattern 'chose' Rand as its corrective mechanism. So hes probably been granted the ability to equal the creator's work and make the patch. I think I like Gonzo's idea that the DO then chips away at the patch.

I still think the DO is a necessary part of the WOT and with out the DO's interference the pattern would be linear. It's the DO's influence in the later ages of the wheel that cause the whole thing to be reset somehow. We just haven't seen how it plays out yet.

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 12:20 PM
The creator made the pattern, the pattern 'chose' Rand as its corrective mechanism. So hes probably been granted the ability to equal the creator's work and make the patch.

I usually see it as pattern vs DO rather than Rand vs DO. Rand and taveren are tools of the pattern just as Ishy, nihilism and balefire are tools of the DO. But the big issue for the pattern is human choice.

The choice between good and evil will always be there for men but not for the Creator or DO. Eventually, men will seek out the DO as a power source, for eternity or whatever excuse. It might take longer in some cycles than others, but it will eventually happen. When it happens, the pattern will do its best to restore things but will use human agents to do so.

Kalli
11-29-2009, 12:44 PM
I usually see it as pattern vs DO rather than Rand vs DO. Rand and taveren are tools of the pattern just as Ishy, nihilism and balefire are tools of the DO. But the big issue for the pattern is human choice.

The choice between good and evil will always be there for men but not for the Creator or DO. Eventually, men will seek out the DO as a power source, for eternity or whatever excuse. It might take longer in some cycles than others, but it will eventually happen. When it happens, the pattern will do its best to restore things but will use human agents to do so.

Agreed, that's why I think as long as the DO exists the pattern maintains wheel shape. It's his existence and humanities flaws' that cause them to seek him and his involvement defines the wheel.

If there is no DO I think time would be linear and yes you would have evil men but they would die and life would go on shaped however humans destine it to be.

EDIT: I'm repeating myself now... I'll shut up.

Terez
11-29-2009, 12:59 PM
I don't think there's any evidence to support the Dark One's existence being responsible for circular time. Not even a hint, really.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 01:06 PM
I don't think there's any evidence to support the Dark One's existence being responsible for circular time. Not even a hint, really.

Add in RJ's previous comments of this Age being no different than any other when it comes to the Last Battle being simply the Last Battle for the 3rd Age, not all time.

Linear time is a non-starter.

Daekyras
11-29-2009, 01:15 PM
I don't think there's any evidence to support the Dark One's existence being responsible for circular time. Not even a hint, really.

Agreed.

If this has happened many many times why does th DO repeat the same mistakes over and over again?

seriously, The Great Lord must rmember all the previous iterations of the light v dark battle(never liked that description, too eddings) and should be able to counter everything.

Anyway, back on topic I think the important part of this chapter appears to be that Rand shows up in the room under his own steam. As one poster said it's the same room as TEOTW but this time he is not summoned, if anything Ishamel/Moridin does not want him there...

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-29-2009, 05:25 PM
The only thing I took 100% from this meeting between Rand and Moridin is Moridin understands that the DO winning means no "eternal life"...it means the end of everything. And he believes none of the other Forsaken understand this important point. They believe if the DO wins, they will have eternity to rule over the reconstructed world, while Moridin realizes it will be over. Just...over.

Now the question is...does Moridin want the DO to succeed in ending everything? I am not convinced of this yet. To be honest, I think Moridin will betray the DO in the end to help Rand save the world. I have a hard time accepting this, but I LIKE Moridin at this point.

Terez
11-29-2009, 05:34 PM
He has always been my favorite bad guy. I like him even more after this book. :D

Belazamon
11-29-2009, 08:17 PM
Sorry to backtrack a bit.

Unless it is the Dragon Soul's healing of the Bore each time that gives it the "weakness/thinness" allowing it to be found the next turning...
Then that would beg the question of how the Great Lord almost escaped the first time.

AbbeyRoad
11-29-2009, 08:40 PM
I don't think there's any evidence to support the Dark One's existence being responsible for circular time. Not even a hint, really.
I'm not so sure. Example.

It's the Age of Legends. Everyone is all Renaissance, knowledge is everything, all that good stuff. The pattern forces it's favorite lackey, LTT, to touch the DO with the Power to seal him away. Saidin is tainted, the guys go crazy, end of an Age. We don't know how the rest of the Ages end, but what if the Creator uses the DO as a catalyst for the transition of Ages. AKA the DO is the reason for circular vs. linear time? Just a thought.

If this has happened many many times why does th DO repeat the same mistakes over and over again?
I like to think of it kind of like Bill Murray in Groundhog's day. The DO is not quite sure what to do to get free, and not even 100% sure if he can, but is trying whatever the hell he thinks he should to make this time more successful than last time.

Also, nothing is the books makes me think the DO is somehow as powerful as the Creator. All evidence points to the Creator being more powerful, and the DO being a sort of annoying brat who he imprisons to keep him from messing up his favorite toy (the Pattern).

As for Rand destroying the Pattern killing the DO, RJ has said in several interviews that the amount of the OP required to kill the DO would destroy the Pattern.

Trutino
11-29-2009, 10:18 PM
I like to think of it kind of like Bill Murray in Groundhog's day. The DO is not quite sure what to do to get free, and not even 100% sure if he can, but is trying whatever the hell he thinks he should to make this time more successful than last time.

I always figured that in most ages, especially ones where people didn't know the DO existed, he didn't have any hope of escaping. Ages like the last one (or at least the end of the last one), and this one are exciting opportunities for the DO.

ETA: Clarifying that in the turning of the wheel, in one of those ages where he is forgotten, he has one of his best chances to escape. (i.e. AoL)

Frenzy
11-29-2009, 11:18 PM
Tel'aran'rhiod is not a reflection of all worlds; the other worlds all have different reflections.
Reflections are mirror world phenomena. There is only one Tel'aran'rhiod. It is the third constant.

Frenzy
11-29-2009, 11:28 PM
Then that would beg the question of how the Great Lord almost escaped the first time.
the WoT version of Pandora?

Weird Harold
11-30-2009, 12:09 AM
I always figured that in most ages, especially ones where people didn't know the DO existed, he didn't have any hope of escaping. Ages like the last one (or at least the end of the last one), and this one are exciting opportunities for the DO.

ETA: Clarifying that in the turning of the wheel, in one of those ages where he is forgotten, he has one of his best chances to escape. (i.e. AoL)
In those Ages where he has been forgotten, Channeling has also largely been forgotten and thus nobody can drill into his prison to give him a tentacle hold to break his prison with.

Only at the end of the Age when Cahneling is rediscovered and human greed starts looking for even more power, will the DO gain the tentacle hold he needs to bring about the next Third Age and the conditions necessary for T'G.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2009, 04:10 AM
I have a hard time accepting this, but I LIKE Moridin at this point.

He has always been my favorite bad guy. I like him even more after this book. :D
It's simple, really: chicks dig bad boys.

Terez
11-30-2009, 02:45 PM
Reflections are mirror world phenomena. There is only one Tel'aran'rhiod. It is the third constant.
It's not that simple. Tel'aran'rhiod reflects the world that our characters live in, which is why they're able to do stuff like spy on Elaida's message box. In the other worlds, these details will be different; therefore, they have different reflections. All of the dreams come together in the GOI, but Tel'aran'rhiod is different. And RJ says they're separate from each other.

Tamyrlin
11-30-2009, 02:52 PM
We decided (iirc) that when speaking about T'A'R as the all encompassing unseen world that includes T'A'R, the GOI, and even the skimming space (although including the skimming space was always sketchy), we would just say "Unseen World" as to that which exists between all worlds: Mirror, Parallel, Perpendicular; then, we'd use T'A'R to refer to the specific non permanent reflection for each world.

I think Verin's understanding of the relationship between all was much less informed than ours and her reference to T'A'R being the third constant...is a bit lacking, if Verin was speaking of the reflection of this world, or the individual reflection of each world. Instead, if we view Verin's use of T'A'R as the third constant and think about it as the Unseen World as that which surrounds all worlds and connects all worlds, it makes more sense.