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Terez
11-29-2009, 03:44 AM
This is new—or, at least, it's not something that Rand seems to have considered since The Dragon Reborn, when he thought he killed the Dark One:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

"It is not time for us to fight," Moridin said, waving a hand at Rand. "Go. Leave me in peace. I do not know what would happen to us if we killed one another. The Great Lord will have you soon enough. His victory is assured."

"He has failed before and will fail again," Rand said. "I will defeat him."

Moridin laughed again, the same heartless laugh as before. "Perhaps you will," he said. "But do you think that matters? Consider it. The Wheel turns, time and time again. Over and over the Ages turn, and men fight the Great Lord. But someday, he will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop.

"That is why his victory is assured. I think it will be this Age, but if not, then in another. When you are victorious, it only leads to another battle. When he is victorious, all things will end. Can you not see that there is no hope for you?"

"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

He laughed again, and this time there was joy in it. True pleasure.

Rand stood. Moridin eyed him warily, but did not get up.

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

Rand felt a flash of anger, but fought it down. He would not be goaded. "We shall see."
When Rand wakes up, he says the same thing to Min, though he allows here that Destroying the Dark One might not be possible:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

"Ishamael lives," Rand said.

She snapped her eyes open. "What?" Just when she was beginning to feel comfortable!

"I visited him in the World of Dreams," Rand said. "And before you ask, no. It wasn't just a nightmare and it wasn't madness. It was real, and I can't explain how I know. You will just have to trust me."

"Ishamael," she whispered. "You killed him!"

"Yes," Rand said. "In the Stone of Tear. He has returned, bearing a new face and a new name, but it is him. We should have realized it would happen; the Dark One won't abandon such useful tools without a fight. He can reach beyond the grave."

"Then how can we win? If everyone we kill just comes back again. . . ."

"Balefire," Rand said. "It will kill them for good."

"Cadsuane said—"

"I don't care what Cadsuane said," he snarled. "She is my advisor, and she gives advice. Only advice. I am the Dragon Reborn, and I will decide how we fight." He stopped, taking a deep breath. "Anyway, it doesn't matter if the Forsaken return, it doesn't matter who or what the Dark One sends at us. In the end, I will destroy him, if possible. If not, then I will at least seal him away so tightly that the world can forget him."

He glanced down at her. "For that . . . I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or . . . or I know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."

The only argument we've had against Rand being able to actually kill the Dark One has so far been this:

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001 (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Macron_Inteview_Memorial_Weekend_2001)

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.
If we just had the answer from RJ, out of context, it would be easier to argue around, but in this context, it's hard. Very hard.

But Rand is all of a sudden claiming that he's going to do it. That seems.....weird, if it's not actually going to happen. Then, we have RJ saying something that seems to contradict the previous quote (to some - I've seen it argued before):
Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002 (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Wotmania_and_Dragonmount_Q%26A_December_9%2C_2002)

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.
Okay, so...then we have the fact that Fain has for a long time been everyone's favorite to become a Gollum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gollum)-type character (link for those who haven't read or seen Lord of the Rings). Obviously it's not an exact parallel, since we're dealing with different powers here. Gollum was used to destroy the Ring; the popular theory on Fain goes that he will somehow be used to seal up the Dark One.

But what if he could be used to destroy the Dark One?
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 22 - The Last that Could Be Done

She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.

She? Rand asked.

The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.

Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing. . . .

What do we do after that? Rand asked.

We die. You promised we could die!

Only if we defeat the Dark One, Rand said. You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death.

Yes . . . nothing, Lews Therin said. That would be nice. No pain, no regret. Nothing.

Rand felt a chill. If Lews Therin began to think that way . . . No, Rand said, it wouldn't be nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.

Lews Therin began to weep.

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.

Silence. Rand sat for a moment, then slid off of Tai'daishar and let the nervous groom lead him away. The rest of the Maidens were coming through the large gateway, Bashere and Narishma taking the rear. Rand didn't wait for them, though he noticed Deira Bashere—Davram Bashere's wife—standing outside the Traveling ground. The tall, statuesque woman had dark hair with lines of white at the temples. She gave Rand a measuring look. What would she do if Bashere died in Rand's service? Would she continue to follow, or would she lead the troops away, back to Saldaea? She was as strong of will as her husband. Perhaps more so.

Rand passed her with a nod and a smile and walked through the evening camp toward the manor house. So Lews Therin did not know how to seal the Dark One's prison. What good was the voice then? Burn him, but he had been one of Rand's few hopes!
We know that the evil of Shadar Logoth is opposed to the evil of the Shadow in a way that made it possible for Rand to destroy the taint. Could Fain be used to destroy the Dark One in a similar way?

Rand has been hoping all this time that Lews Therin would know something about how to seal up the Dark One, perhaps ironically since he knew that Lews Therin botched it.

We know from Fel's logic that it can be done, and has been before, but Fel seems to doubt for some reason that the Dragon Reborn can do it:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 18 - A Taste of Solitude

"What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see. . . " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

"Why? Maybe the next time they’ll drill through the patch. Maybe that’s how they could do it the last time—drill into what the Creator made, I mean—maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don’t know."

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One’s prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole – an Age, at least – that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ." He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again." Sticking his pipe back between his teeth, he tried to make another note without dipping the pen.

"Unless the Dark One breaks free," Rand said quietly. "To break the Wheel of Time, and remake Time and the world in his own image."

"There is that." Herid shrugged, frowning at the pen. Finally he thought of the inkpot. "I don’t suppose there’s much you or I can do about it. Why don’t you come study here with me? I don’t suppose Tarmon Gai’don will happen tomorrow, and it would be as good a use of your time as—"

"Is there any reason you can think of to break the seals?"

Herid’s eyebrows shot up. "Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that? Can they even be broken? I seem to remember reading somewhere they can’t, but I don’t recall now that it said why. What made you think of a thing like that?"

"I don’t know," Rand sighed. In the back of his head Lews Therin was chanting. Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.
Interesting how, from here to The Gathering Storm, breaking the seals is, in Rand's mind, a way to end it all and die forever (see the previous book quote). And of course, Fel changed his mind later about breaking the seals, hence the note referenced in the previous quote—you have to clear the rubble before you can build.

That wasn't the only time in The Gathering Storm that Rand mentioned killing the Dark One. Here's another:
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 44 - Scents Unknown

"And Lan?" Nynaeve asked.

"His attack will be well placed." Rand nodded. "He will draw my enemies' attention to Malkier and the Gap, and it will make them think that I am there. Shadowspawn can't move through gateways, so they can't move as quickly as I can. By the time they've engaged Lan, I'll be past them and attacking directly at the Dark One's heart.

"I don't plan to abandon the southern lands, not at all. When the Trollocs punch through the Gap, they will break up into fists to invade. That's when my forces will hit them, led by Bashere, Traveling by gateway to strike at each group of Trollocs from the sides or behind. That way, we can pick the best battlefields to suit our needs."

"Rand," Nynaeve said, her anger fading to horror. "Lan will die!"

"Then who am I to deny him that?" Rand said. "We all deserve the chance to find peace."

Nynaeve found her mouth hanging open. He actually believed that! Or he was convincing himself to believe it, at least.

"My duty is to kill The Dark One," Rand said, as if to himself. "I kill him, then I die. That is all."

"But—"

"That is enough, Nynaeve." Rand spoke softly in that dangerous voice of his. He would not be pressed further.
And another:
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 44 - Scents Unknown

"Return to your masters inside of their box," Rand said, voice under control again. "You are to give them a message for me."

"What message, Lord Rand?"

Rand hesitated, then slipped the access key back in its place. "Tell them that it will not be long before the Dragon Reborn rides to battle at Shayol Ghul. If they wish to return to their posts with honor, I will provide them with transport back to the Blight. Otherwise, they can remain here, hiding. Let them explain to their children and grandchildren why they were hundreds of leagues away from their posts when the Dark One was slain and the prophecies fulfilled."
So, this isn't like my pet theory or anything, but I figured it deserved a thread of its own. The sense of what, exactly, the ending will be, definitely changed in this book. And, as Verin says, it might not be anything like Rand assumes:
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 39 - A Visit from Verin Sedai

"I compliment you on what you've done here, Egwene," Verin said. "I've followed some little of the foolishness going on between the Aes Sedai factions, though I decided not to get involved personally. It was more important to continue my research and keep an eye on young al'Thor. He's a fiery one, I must say. I worry about the lad. I'm not certain he understands how the Great Lord works. Not all evil is as . . . obvious as the Chosen. The Forsaken, as you'd call them."

"Obvious?" Egwene said. "The Forsaken?"

"Well, by comparison." Verin smiled and warmed her hands on her cup of tea. "The Chosen are like a bunch of squabbling children, each trying to scream the loudest and attract their father's attention. It's easy to determine what they want: Power over the other children, proof that they are the most important. I'm convinced that it isn't intelligence, craftiness, or skill that makes one Chosen—though of course, those things are important. No, I believe it is selfishness the Great Lord seeks in his greatest leaders."

Egwene frowned. Were they really having a quiet chat about the Forsaken? "Why would he choose that quality?"

"It makes them predictable. A tool you can depend upon to act as expected is far more valuable than one you cannot understand. Or perhaps because when they struggle against one another, it makes only the strong ones survive. I don't know, honestly. The Chosen are predictable, but the Great Lord is anything but. Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what he wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

Terez
11-29-2009, 04:14 AM
I'm going to posit that the person at Macron International asked the wrong question. There is nothing special about this Age, but by the time it gets to the Last Battle, the Age will be pretty much over with.

I also forgot to add an RJ quote about his thoughts on circular vs linear time:

CNN Chat 12 December 2000 (http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html)

Chat moderator: How did you develop the idea for the Wheel of Time saga, and where did you get the name?

RJ: The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible.

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 05:30 AM
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]This is new—or, at least, it's not something that Rand seems to have considered since The Dragon Reborn, when he thought he killed the Dark One:

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

You might want to ask yourself whose idea this is Terez, Rand's, LT's or Moridin's? Or even worse a sort of combination.

The lines between the three have been terribly blurred in tGS and if there's any combination that can kill the DO it would be Moridin +_DR.

That said though, I don't expect it to happen.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 06:42 AM
I don't think it is Moridin's idea. If he had even thought that it might have been possible, then he wouldn't have gone over.

Terez
11-29-2009, 07:20 AM
Yeah it seems pretty clear that Moridin doesn't think it's possible. He was goading Rand with the 'stupidity' comment, but one thing that has been shown time and again is that Moridin tends to be honest even when he's goading. His pride won't allow anything less.

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 07:48 AM
I don't think it is Moridin's idea. If he had even thought that it might have been possible, then he wouldn't have gone over.

Well let's look for the curtains then.

The idea of killing anyone is sort of the way Moridin would think. He might not himself consider killing the DO, but killing is his thing.

LT from the little we know, likely wouldn't consider killing the DO either. He's not really into killing, and he never tried in the aol.

But Rand has the liberty of considering the DO killable. He's never met the guy, and if you add to that Moridin's quiet blood thirstiness, well you get quite a mix.

As I said before, I don't beleive he can.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2009, 08:14 AM
At the end of TEOTW, Rand sort of accidentally blundered into a situation where he thought that he was killing the DO. He was wrong, but he definitely tried. And failed, because he did not know enough.
At the end of TGH, Rand sort of accidentally blundered into a situation where he thought that he was killing the DO. He was wrong, but he definitely tried. And failed, because he did not know enough.
At the end of TDR, Rand sort of accidentally blundered into a situation where he thought that he was killing the DO. He was wrong, but he definitely tried. And succeeded, sort of, though it wasn't the DO he killed.

With that kind of history, it is not too much of a stretch to think that he wants to do a proper job, now that he can finally plan things a bit in advance.

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 11:31 AM
Exactly Gonzo. Rand tried killing the DO several times and by now you'd think he'll be considering that maybe the DO isn't really "killable" at all. But his conviction seems stronger than ever now.

"It is not time for us to fight," Moridin said, waving a hand at Rand. "Go. Leave me in peace. I do not know what would happen to us if we killed one another. The Great Lord will have you soon enough. His victory is assured."

"He has failed before and will fail again," Rand said. "I will defeat him."

Moridin laughed again, the same heartless laugh as before. "Perhaps you will," he said. "But do you think that matters? Consider it. The Wheel turns, time and time again. Over and over the Ages turn, and men fight the Great Lord. But someday, he will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop.

"That is why his victory is assured. I think it will be this Age, but if not, then in another. When you are victorious, it only leads to another battle. When he is victorious, all things will end. Can you not see that there is no hope for you?"

"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

He laughed again, and this time there was joy in it. True pleasure.

Rand stood. Moridin eyed him warily, but did not get up.

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

So Rand uncharacteristically calls him Elan as LT might have done. Was he really thinking his thoughts or LT's? Or a mix of both? Or of the three? I can't say for sure but I suspect its a mix of the three.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 11:34 AM
Rand and LTT (the memories) are integrated in TAR...just as they are at the end of the book. Rand should have full access to his previous life now...with no wacky voice distracting him.

padfoot89
11-29-2009, 11:35 AM
If Rand can come up with a plan to destroy the DO, he could get Moridin to work for him. Moridin's allegiance to the Shadow is because he reasoned that the DO would eventually win given enough number of chances. He's seeing the big picture here that given infinite number of chances the DO would eventually win unless the DO has an IQ of a 2 year old. If Rand can convince Moridin that the DO wouldn't have any other chances, he might just switch allegiance.

Alternatively, he'll kidnap Fain and chuck him into the Bore. The cataclysmic reaction will destroy them both and end up breaking the world, thus fulfilling prophecy.

greatwolf
11-29-2009, 12:49 PM
Rand and LTT (the memories) are integrated in TAR...just as they are at the end of the book. Rand should have full access to his previous life now...with no wacky voice distracting him.

But what of the Rand and Moridin integration? Min did have that viewing you know, so their memories may also merge. That would give Rand rare view point of the DO.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 12:52 PM
But what of the Rand and Moridin integration? Min did have that viewing you know, so their memories may also merge. That would give Rand rare view point of the DO.

That is likely yet to come...could be part of how he wins. [He] being Rand and the Light.

Terez
11-29-2009, 12:57 PM
Min's viewing says that they 'seemed to merge', not that they did merge. I expect more of the same, but no telling really what sort of ways the link will manifest itself. We don't know enough about it to say.

Neilbert
11-29-2009, 02:00 PM
Rand and LTT (the memories) are integrated in TAR...just as they are at the end of the book. Rand should have full access to his previous life now...with no wacky voice distracting him.

Yeah ok, but this really just begs the question. Where is Ishamael's palace? It displays all the characteristics of being in TAR, and in the Blight, but we know that these things are mutually exclusive. There is no Blight in TAR. IIRC the location of Ishamae's palace got RAFO'ed in an interview question. What's the deal here?

Blight: you can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.

And this is interesting...

Q: "Theoretically...if someone...had sex in Tel'aran'rhiod, could they be pregnant in the real world?
RJ: Read and find out. I like the dirty questions! You notice it's always the women who ask the dirty questions, never the men.

Terez
11-29-2009, 02:20 PM
I see it as being at Shayol Ghul rather than in the Blight (arguably even more part of another universe than the Blight, but that Moridin has access to in the Dream). But as I've said elsewhere, that is probably the only reason why it felt different than Tel'aran'rhiod, to Rand. All the other characteristics are dead on. I think the reason why Brandon wouldn't confirm that it was Tel'aran'rhiod is that he didn't want to confirm construct theory.

Tercel
11-29-2009, 04:07 PM
I've always kind of assumed that Rand's thought that he might be able to kill the Dark One was Brandon's nod to fan-theories. Quite often in tGS, Brandon mentions fan-theories by having characters in-story discuss and debate the very theories fans have been discussing.

I think this is one of those. Rand is the logical one to bring up the fan-theory that Rand might kill the DO rather than re-imprison him, and Moridin is the logical one to argue that it's totally idiotic and would never work.


There's a couple of things I've been wondering though, since hearing in tGS how the Dark One tainted Saidin...

LTT when sealing the bore touched Saidin to the DO directly because "something has to touch him". As a result the DO was able to taint Saidin.

1. So what should touch the DO? We have been told that the bore is a thinness in the pattern which allows the DO to be sensed through the Pattern, which strongly implies that before the bore it was the thickness of the Pattern itself that imprisoned the DO. So it's not surprising that as the DO breaks free of his prison, reality itself is disintegrating. So the 'correct' thing to do to seal the bore is strengthen the Pattern. So far in the series we've seen no mechanism for strengthening the Pattern, except perhaps Herid Fel's comment that "belief and order give strength". (Also, this would make sense of the DO's instructions to sow chaos)

2. If the taint on Saidin was caused by it touching the DO, that suggests that the 'correct' way of removing the taint was to break the seals on the DO's prison, thus disconnecting the DO from Saidin. But the taint being caused by 'touching' the Dark One makes me think that the taint itself is in some sense a 'piece' of the Dark One himself. Rand's solution to the taint was interesting... from RJ interview questions, I understand that Shadar Logoth was a 'new' thing in the history of the wheel. Rand was able to use that evil to mutually annihilate the Dark One's evil touching Saidin. But I have to wonder: Did Rand in fact actually annihilate a 'piece' of the Dark One himself?! If so... shoving Fain into the Pit of Doom could well be a fairly good way to go about 'killing' the Dark One.

Terez
11-29-2009, 04:10 PM
I've always kind of assumed that Rand's thought that he might be able to kill the Dark One was Brandon's nod to fan-theories. Quite often in tGS, Brandon mentions fan-theories by having characters in-story discuss and debate the very theories fans have been discussing.

I think this is one of those.
I dunno about that. Seems kind of strange for him to all of a sudden believe that he can kill the Dark One, after all this time. And to mention it four times in the book? At least four...I might have missed some.

Davian93
11-29-2009, 04:20 PM
I dunno about that. Seems kind of strange for him to all of a sudden believe that he can kill the Dark One, after all this time. And to mention it four times in the book? At least four...I might have missed some.

It should be noted that he also thinks he can kill someone just by looking at them funny. I'm not sure if Rand can really be taken seriously throughout most of this book. It seems like the "I'm gonna kill the DO" is the ultimate in grandiose hubris brought on by his possession of the CK Key.

Bonzi77
11-29-2009, 04:51 PM
It will be interesting to see if Rand's kill the Dark One plan lasts after he's come to terms with the nature of his destiny and the fact that he wants the Wheel to keep turning as of the end of tGS. The desire to kill the Dark One was part of his megalomania that developed and finally came to a head in tGS.

Terez
11-29-2009, 05:23 PM
It should be noted that he also thinks he can kill someone just by looking at them funny.
1. There's nothing to say he actually believes that. He was making a threat.

2. There's nothing to say he can't actually do it.

Wunderwaffe
11-29-2009, 06:09 PM
Of course RJ isn't going to say that there is anything special about this Age. If he would say otherwise, hardcore fans such as those who common this website would be able to ascertain a few things that he wants unsaid until the End.

Terez
11-29-2009, 07:03 PM
Yeah, but he could have said RAFO! lol...but he was reluctant to use that as well. Better to give an Aes Sedai answer. :)

One Armed Gimp
11-29-2009, 07:19 PM
I doubt Rand can kill the DO, I do not see that as being a possibility. I almost think that doing so would possibly destroy the pattern as well. It would take away from the balance that RJ so adamantly promotes through out the books.

Terez
11-29-2009, 07:32 PM
It will be interesting to see if Rand's kill the Dark One plan lasts after he's come to terms with the nature of his destiny and the fact that he wants the Wheel to keep turning as of the end of tGS. The desire to kill the Dark One was part of his megalomania that developed and finally came to a head in tGS.
Hmm, it's hard to blame it on his megalomania when he had the same naive belief way back in the first three books:

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 52 - Neither Beginning Nor End

"My name," he said after a while, "is Rand al'Thor." More memory crashed back into his head like a lead ball, and he groaned. "The Dark One," he whispered to himself. "The Dark One is dead." There was no more need for caution. "Shai'tan is dead." The world seemed to lurch. He shook in silent mirth until tears poured from his eyes. "Shai'tan is dead!" He laughed at the sky. Other memories. "Egwene!" That name meant something important.

...

"Aginor and Balthamel are dead, and so is Shai'—"

"The Dark One," the Aes Sedai cut him off. Ill or not, her voice was firm, and her dark eyes commanding. "Best we still call him the Dark One. Or Ba'alzamon, at least."

He shrugged. "As you wish. But he's dead. The Dark One's dead. I killed him. I burned him with ..." The rest of memory flooded back then, leaving his mouth hanging open. The One Power. I wielded the One Power. No man can ... He licked lips that were suddenly dry. A gust of wind swirled fallen and falling leaves around them, but it was no colder than his heart. They were looking at him, the three of them. Watching. Not even blinking. He reached out to Egwene, and there was no imagination in her drawing back this time. "Egwene?" She turned her face away, and he let his hand drop.

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 49 - What Was Meant to Be

"I killed him," he said softly. "This time I killed him."

Moiraine put the ruined sword aside like the useless thing it now was, and wiped her hands together. "The Dark One is not slain so easily. The mere fact that he appeared in the sky above Falme is more than merely troubling. He should not be able to do that, if he is bound as we believe. And if he is not, why has he not destroyed us all?" Min stirred uneasily.
Nice reference to the shroud of darkness, halo of blackness, warp in the air thingy:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What is Written in Prophecy

"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel-black lines around Ba'alzamon, and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.

Ba'alzamon screamed, and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he howled. "The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body sagged and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.

I have done it, he thought. I have killed Ba'alzamon, killed Shai'tan! I have won the Last Battle! Light, I AM the Dragon Reborn! The breaker of nations, the Breaker of the World. No! I will END the breaking, end the killing! I will MAKE it end!

He raised Callandor above his head. Silver lightning crackled from the blade, jagged streaks arching toward the great dome above. "Stop!" he shouted. The fighting ceased; men stared at him in wonder, over black veils, from beneath the rims of round helmets. "I am Rand al'Thor!" he called, so his voice rang through the chamber. "I am the Dragon Reborn!" Callandor shone in his grasp.One by one, veiled men and helmeted, they knelt to him, crying, "The Dragon is Reborn! The Dragon is Reborn!"
And Rand remembering his naivete when he sees 'Ba'alzamon' again:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

A man sat in the chair on the left. Tall and youthful, he had a square face and ancient blue eyes that reflected the hearth-fire, turning his irises almost purple. The other chair was empty. Rand walked to it and sat down, calming his heart and watching the dancing flames. He had seen this man before in visions, not unlike the ones that appeared when he thought of Mat or Perrin.

The colors did not appear on this thought of his friends. That was odd, but somehow not unexpected. The visions he'd seen of the man in the other chair were different from the ones involving Perrin and Mat. They were more visceral, somehow, more real. At times during those visions, Rand had felt almost as if he could reach out and touch this man. He'd been afraid of what would happen if he did.

He had met the man only once. At Shadar Logoth. The stranger had saved Rand's life, and Rand had often wondered who he had been. Now, in this place, Rand finally knew.

"You are dead," Rand whispered. "I killed you."

The man didn't look from the fire as he laughed. It was a rough, low-throated laugh that held little true mirth. Once, Rand had known this man only as Ba'alzamon—a name for the Dark One—and had foolishly thought that in killing him, he had defeated the Shadow for good.

"I watched you die," Rand said. "I stabbed you through the chest with Callandor. Isha—"

"That is not my name," the man interrupted, still watching the flames. "I am known as Moridin, now."

Ozymandias
11-29-2009, 08:12 PM
I would think that the very longevity of his belief he can kill the Dark One is evidence to its "monumental stupidity." When he was an ignorant farmboy, he thought the war would be ended with the death of one side. Its just not in the human condition to believe victory is impossible. Or not normally. Its that very sense of inevitability that drove him insane in the first place.

Nothing says RJ's characters know what the hell they're talking about. I mean, I'd guess that on average, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne have combined to be wrong far more than their right, and Rand isn't too far behind on the mistaken assumptions count.

I always thought that scene with Moridin was evidence of Rand's growing megalomania. Nothing in the history of Randland suggests the Dark One can be killed. Similarly, we know Rand isn't exactly a philosopher, and I doubt he managed to outthink the greatest minds of the greatest Age in the history of the world. I trust Elan Morin Tendronai on this one. Speaking of which, there is no chance he turns to the Light, to whoever suggested that. As Rand/LTT implies, he became snarled in the inevitability of his own thoughts and fears, and so turned, and in the process became insane. He will dismiss any offer Rand can make.

And, of course, its important to grasp that the Dark One is a being that exists outside of the Pattern. Rand, for all his importance, is just a thread in that Pattern. If it was within the power of the Pattern to get rid of the Dark One, it would have done so long ago. As it has not, it is not within its power. And therefore, as a part of that Pattern, it is not within Rand's power either.

bluejam
11-30-2009, 01:48 AM
I've always assumed that the Taint was the True Power, seeped into Saidin because of the seals touching the prison.

And I also assumed (lotsa assumptions, but hey, all opinion here) the True Power is the Dark One's essence, just like Mordeth is basically his own power incarnate as well.

So if we take from that, and with Shadar Logoth at the cleansing destroying the Taint (True Power, Essence of D.O. imho), that the DO can be destroyed, or at least bottled up in an endless fight with Mashadar.

The only tough part would be getting access.

But his wound is almost exactly this scenario, the DO essence fighting the Mashadar essence inside him, while the One Power was weaved on it to keep it contained.

wolframbohr2
11-30-2009, 03:21 AM
If the True Power comes from the Dark One, is there a Power that comes from the Creator? Jordan does like balance. If there is, and Rand learns to use it and fixes the hole with it, it will be as good as when the Creator made the prison since it would be the same Power that made the prison in the first place. Thus there would be no hole.

There had to be thinness during the first turning of the Wheel. Something caused it, or the Creator made it when he locked the Dark One away. I am of the persuasion that something like the prison the Creator would have been perfect in doing it. If not he would step in to fix it because he was the one who caused it. The reason he does not step in during the turnings of the Wheel is that somehow something in one of the other Ages caused a thinning that could be detected in the Age of Legend. Thus it is up to us to “fix” it. After this Age, the prison needs to be fixed as good as new, so that something in the other age can thin it again and not cause the Dark One to break free then and there.

This becomes null and void if the Creator indeed created the prison with a thinness setting up conflicts for the Ages.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2009, 04:15 AM
Perhaps Rand can kill the DO, but only if the latter stands and fights. So, when Rand is about to deal out the death blow, the DO runs away and pulls his prison shut behind himself, killing Rand (who stood in the doorway) in the process. This also solves the "how can a man seal the prison as well as the Creator did" problem, since now it would be the DO, not Rand, who is doing this.

Of course, it requires that Alivia is really the DO, but that is not a very serious problem, I think.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 06:00 AM
Maybe Rand isn't in the "doorway". Alivia knows that Rand's blood is actually what the Creator used to seal the door so she pushes him in.

padfoot89
11-30-2009, 06:09 AM
Didn't RJ say that Fain was unique to this age ?
If so, there could be a twist in this age that didn't happen before. We've seen that the DO's evil and Mordeth's evil doesn't mix well. Fain's two main goals seem to be to kill Rand and then the DO. Maybe Rand will pretend to die with Alivia's help, and Fain will then accidentally kill the DO.
Killing the DO does not necessarily mean that DO should physically die, just that he is unable to touch the world ever again. Maybe Rand will do something to shift the prison somewhat so that humans will never be able to detect the DO power no matter what the DO does.
I never saw Ishamael as insane. To me, his decision to join the Shadow makes logical sense. Many forsaken think he is insane because of his frequent TP usage. But it makes sense from Ishamael's point of view as eventually everyone would die and he is making most of his opportunities.
If Rand can make proper arguments for his case, I think he can win over Moridin. He even acknowledges the possibility that Rand might win. You'd think that for DO's top guy, he'd not have even thought about failure. We've seen third-agers do stuff that people in the AoL thought were impossible so Moridin dismissing it doesn't mean its impossible.

Enigma
11-30-2009, 08:02 AM
I remember RJ gave an interview some time ago when he said that people used to believe that time wasy like a wheel and that things repeated themselves endlessly. I believe he said that the gift that the (I think he said) Greeks gave the world was the concept of linear time.

When I heard that I always wondered if RJ would have Rand finally doing what so many dragons have never done before and that was not to settle for a status quo but to do something that removed the DO forever. In essence he would make the Last Battle a real "Last" Battle.

WinespringBrother
11-30-2009, 08:59 AM
I wonder if it is possible to "taint" the Dark One, as he tainted saidin, since the Pattern and the Prison seem to be as matter/antimatter. (and channeling the OP makes Fades itchy) This may not kill him but it could distract him or drive him insane at least, if he isn't already.

How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 09:08 AM
Hmm, it's hard to blame it on his megalomania when he had the same naive belief way back in the first three books:



Exactly, naive. When he became better educated he became more focussed on sealing the bore than killing the Dark One. His latest "Kill the Dark One" plan came as a result of him wanting to not have to live this saga over and over again.

padfoot89
11-30-2009, 01:26 PM
I just came across a passage in Fires of Heaven where Rand talks to Asmodean about cleansing the taint and Asmodean reacts in a similar scornful manner. Rand eventually does clean it because of Shadar Logoth. Foreshadowing ?

Terez
11-30-2009, 02:20 PM
Maybe Rand will pretend to die with Alivia's help
nooooooooooooooo

I remember RJ gave an interview some time ago when he said that people used to believe that time wasy like a wheel and that things repeated themselves endlessly. I believe he said that the gift that the (I think he said) Greeks gave the world was the concept of linear time.
I quoted it, post #2. ;)

When I heard that I always wondered if RJ would have Rand finally doing what so many dragons have never done before and that was not to settle for a status quo but to do something that removed the DO forever. In essence he would make the Last Battle a real "Last" Battle.
Yeah, I had a similar thought. I'm still deliberating on that one, though. He has also made clear many times that this is a fantasy world, which is why circular time is reality there. He's also made some disparaging remarks on theoretical physics, comparing it to religion, but he's made theoretical physics the reality in his world, along with other things like elemental powers, and legal insanity (wonder what his political opinion was on this one), MPD/schizophrenia (same).

How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?
hahaha, pretty bad.

Exactly, naive. When he became better educated he became more focussed on sealing the bore than killing the Dark One. His latest "Kill the Dark One" plan came as a result of him wanting to not have to live this saga over and over again.
Yeah, there is that. But Rand is stubborn - what's to say he won't get stuck on the idea? :)

I just came across a passage in Fires of Heaven where Rand talks to Asmodean about cleansing the taint and Asmodean reacts in a similar scornful manner. Rand eventually does clean it because of Shadar Logoth. Foreshadowing ?
Or red herring? That is the question...

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 02:32 PM
Yeah, there is that. But Rand is stubborn - what's to say he won't get stuck on the idea? :)




Yeah, that's why it will be interesting to see if that particular thought sticks with him. He's made a rational and conscious realization about the nature of what his life and destiny are as of the end of tGS, but I don't think that necessarily means all of the byproducts of his being nuts are going to simply go away.

Kimon
11-30-2009, 03:49 PM
Has there ever been anything definitive to argue for or against Shaidar Haran (as his name would imply) being either directly linked to or perhaps endowed with some part of the Dark One's essence -perhaps in a way similar to what Sauron did with the one ring. If so, what damage might it do the the Dark One if Shaidar Haran was balefired?

DeiwosTheSkyGod
11-30-2009, 05:53 PM
If Rand does kill the Dark One, I think it has to be more complicated than cleansing the taint was. I don't see Fain's evil as proportional enough to the Dark One's to cancel them both out the way Shadar Logoth and the taint did.

Crispin's Crispian
11-30-2009, 06:04 PM
I don't think Rand can ever kill the DO. What I've always thought was more likely was that Rand either breaks the Wheel or otherwise stops circular time.

Another alternative is just that Rand uses Fain somehow to seal the prison, possibly using himself as well. It would be like a two-layer seal: Fain touches the DO to neutralize his power. Fain also buffers Rand from the DO's direct influence. Rand, in turn, is the buffer to the rest of the Pattern. You can't make a seal with just Fain, because you need a part of the Pattern to seal it up as well and Fain is too volatile.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 06:12 PM
I don't think Rand can ever kill the DO. What I've always thought was more likely was that Rand either breaks the Wheel or otherwise stops circular time.

Wouldn't either of those essentially "break" the pattern, thus releasing the DO?

Crispin's Crispian
11-30-2009, 06:21 PM
Wouldn't either of those essentially "break" the pattern, thus releasing the DO?

Not if Rand seals him first. The Pattern is a metaphor. If you sealed up the DO then changed circular time to linear time, you'd never have to deal with the DO again.

DeiwosTheSkyGod
11-30-2009, 07:18 PM
But if Rand seals him, doesn't that automatically trap the world into circular time?

One Armed Gimp
12-01-2009, 07:58 AM
Not if Rand seals him first. The Pattern is a metaphor. If you sealed up the DO then changed circular time to linear time, you'd never have to deal with the DO again.

But the Pattern is the prison and is woven by the Wheel. If you break the Wheel there is no more Pattern and therefore, no more prison.

Yellowbeard
12-01-2009, 09:01 AM
Regarding changing time from circular to linear:

The One Power is what drives the turning of the Wheel, right? I don't think you have to break the wheel or pattern to change to from circular to linear time. You just have to come up with a way to make the wheel stop turning and you stay in the current age from then on.

So how about if Rand figured out a way to make the One Power go away. No more channeling, but no more turning of the wheel, therefore, linear time, and the DO's prison is never breached again.

I've had a pet looney theory that somehow Rand would use up ALL of the one power, both saidin and saidar, in healing the power. He'd use sa'angreal/links to guide it all into:
-unmaking/removing the bore
-healing the pattern
-putting all remaining unused OP into the pattern as additional sealing/extra strengthing of the pattern to resist the DO forever.

Then, no more channeling, therefore, no more bores into the DO's prison, and no more OP to make the wheel turn again. Hence, conversion from circular into linear time.

Crispin's Crispian
12-01-2009, 09:57 AM
But if Rand seals him, doesn't that automatically trap the world into circular time?

Why would it?

Crispin's Crispian
12-01-2009, 10:02 AM
But the Pattern is the prison and is woven by the Wheel. If you break the Wheel there is no more Pattern and therefore, no more prison.

Where does it say that the Pattern is the prison? The Dark One is imprisoned outside the Pattern, not by the Pattern.

Again, the Pattern is a metaphor for the sort of predestiny woven by the Wheel. The Wheel weaves a specific Pattern to keep itself in balance. But if you no longer have a Wheel, nothing needs to be kept in balance, and you no longer need a Pattern. All that happens is that (a) you get rid of that particular predestiny, and (b) you don't have to keep repeating the same mistakes.

I think Rand's/LTT's thoughts about this are strong circumstantial evidence. Each time around the Wheel is another chance to get something right. It's another chance not to make the same mistakes you made before (sounds suspiciously like Hindu reincarnation, doesn't it?). But what happens when you get it right? You don't need to go around again if there are no mistakes.

Bonzi77
12-01-2009, 10:05 AM
So how about if Rand figured out a way to make the One Power go away. No more channeling, but no more turning of the wheel, therefore, linear time, and the DO's prison is never breached again.



There's a couple of problems with this. One, there's going to be, at some point in the future a time when there are no channelers. The beginning of the Age of Legends happened when channeling was rediscovered, so when the Age of Legends comes again, there has to be no channeling. So the One Power going away doesn't make time necessarily linear.

Second, as long as the Dark One exists, he could be rediscovered and have his prison breached, regardless of whether the Wheel turned or not. Only if that happened, there'd be no wheel to defend against him.

And finally, I think in the world RJ created, there's a very good possibility that stopping the wheel in it's tracks or breaking it all together would really screw some stuff up in a monumental way, Dark One or no.

Yellowbeard
12-01-2009, 03:08 PM
One, there's going to be, at some point in the future a time when there are no channelers. The beginning of the Age of Legends happened when channeling was rediscovered, so when the Age of Legends comes again, there has to be no channeling. So the One Power going away doesn't make time necessarily linear.

You're missing the point. The turning of the Wheel to the next age is driven by the OP. So if there's no more OP, then there's nothing to make the wheel turn. Therefore, the wheel never turns again and a new age/ages never begins.

The Wheel would stay stuck in an age w/ no DO forever.

Second, as long as the Dark One exists, he could be rediscovered and have his prison breached, regardless of whether the Wheel turned or not. Only if that happened, there'd be no wheel to defend against him.

The AoL researchers that found the DO and created the bore were only able to do so via the OP. That's the only way to discover and/or contact the DO. Future generations would have no way to channel, therefore the only way for them discover the DO would not be an option. Therefore, it would be impossible for future generations to rebore the DO's prison, or even detect his presence outside the pattern.

People have to first create conditions that create the risk from the DO. Without channeling, that can't ever happen again in the future. Therefore, the DO can never threaten the world again because future generations would be barred from using the power they need to rebore his prison.

In short, people would be protected from their own ignorance in the future because they wouldn't be able to channel, therefore they wouldn't be able to rediscover/rebore the DO's prison.

And finally, I think in the world RJ created, there's a very good possibility that stopping the wheel in it's tracks or breaking it all together would really screw some stuff up in a monumental way, Dark One or no.

I think that's totally speculative. Until Moridin's comments about the DO's intent to destroy creation, I personally thought the goal of the DO was to break free, and "break the wheel" so that it couldn't turn again, while leaving creation intact. That way, the DO is free and the Wheel cannot advance to an age where the DO is not free, thereby leaving the DO free forever to rule and be evil. Afterall, what's the point of being evil if there's nobody left to be evil towards?

I still suspect that actually despite Moridin's words. Moridin has been insane for 3000+ years. Trusting anything he says without any sort of criticism is a bad idea.

Daekyras
12-01-2009, 03:55 PM
The turning of the Wheel to the next age is driven by the OP. So if there's no more OP, then there's nothing to make the wheel turn. Therefore, the wheel never turns again and a new age/ages never begins.

The Wheel would stay stuck in an age w/ no DO forever.

The AoL researchers that found the DO and created the bore were only able to do so via the OP. That's the only way to discover and/or contact the DO. Future generations would have no way to channel, therefore the only way for them discover the DO would not be an option. Therefore, it would be impossible for future generations to rebore the DO's prison, or even detect his presence outside the pattern.


I like the idea of using up all the one power but do we know that it is one power that actually DRIVES the wheel?

I know this will sound silly but I've always thought of the wheel as providing the one power. i.e The one power is created as the wheel turns.

See, I see the power as being electricity. The One Power is like AC- Created by movement(the wheel). I wrote a theory on it some years ago.

TP is like DC-provided from a fixed source(DO)

Weird Harold
12-01-2009, 04:26 PM
Therefore, the wheel never turns again and a new age/ages never begins.

The Wheel would stay stuck in an age w/ no DO forever.

Since theWheel IS Time, if the Wheel stops what you would get is a DVD player with the Pause function stuck; an eternal freeze frame.

Ozymandias
12-01-2009, 04:26 PM
I don't think its possible. If it was possible, it would have been done. The Dark One exists outside of the Pattern. Therefore nothing in the Pattern can destroy him. They can merely block his access to the Pattern.

If it was possible for something within the Pattern to destroy the Dark One, the Wheel would have spun out that someone or something long ago. Rand cannot affect anything that is not within the Pattern, and the Dark One certainly isn't.

Weird Harold
12-01-2009, 04:36 PM
I like the idea of using up all the one power but do we know that it is one power that actually DRIVES the wheel?

I know this will sound silly but I've always thought of the wheel as providing the one power. i.e The one power is created as the wheel turns.

BWB
Chapter One
The Wheel and the Pattern

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

Daekyras
12-01-2009, 04:39 PM
BWB
Chapter One
The Wheel and the Pattern

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

Thank you WH.

Mat is Better
12-02-2009, 12:44 AM
There have been a few statements that imply the Forsaken know everything. Obviously they don't. Granted, Ishmael probably knows a lot more about the DO than other forsaken as a result of his status. However, even if there was a way for Rand to kill the DO, or to make the prison anew, do you really think the DO would allow his underlings to learn about it? Knowing the secret to kill/enslave the DO would be quite a a powerful tool for any of the forsaken. I believe they are simply ignorant about these matters.

Short version: it doesn't matter whether the Forsaken think anything is possible or not, because they are not all knowing.

I do not think that Rand himself can kill the DO, but I do believe it is possible to kill him. I won't make any claims about what I think is going to happen because frankly, I have no idea.

Ozymandias
12-02-2009, 09:18 AM
There have been a few statements that imply the Forsaken know everything. Obviously they don't. Granted, Ishmael probably knows a lot more about the DO than other forsaken as a result of his status. However, even if there was a way for Rand to kill the DO, or to make the prison anew, do you really think the DO would allow his underlings to learn about it? Knowing the secret to kill/enslave the DO would be quite a a powerful tool for any of the forsaken. I believe they are simply ignorant about these matters.

Short version: it doesn't matter whether the Forsaken think anything is possible or not, because they are not all knowing.

I do not think that Rand himself can kill the DO, but I do believe it is possible to kill him. I won't make any claims about what I think is going to happen because frankly, I have no idea.

It has never been implied the Forsaken are all knowing. They consider themselves to be the cream of the crop of an Age that was the pinnacle of human civilization.

This sounds silly, but they know a great deal more than current Randlanders about things they know. What they don't know are some of the innovations of the Age; Warders, Healing the Stilled, the like. These are big gaps in knowledge, but I think its very safe to assume they know a great deal about the Dark One, given their intimate relationship with him.

Anyways, its patently obvious the Dark One cannot be killed. The Creator could not do it. The Wheel and Pattern cannot do it. There is nothing left.

Ieyasu
12-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Anyways, its patently obvious the Dark One cannot be killed. The Creator could not do it. The Wheel and Pattern cannot do it. There is nothing left.

The Creator could not... or would not? I wouldn't mistake a lack of desire for a lack of ability...

1Powerslave
12-02-2009, 03:10 PM
I don't think its possible. If it was possible, it would have been done. The Dark One exists outside of the Pattern. Therefore nothing in the Pattern can destroy him. They can merely block his access to the Pattern."If it was possible it would have been done" ... How do you know how many times the Wheel have turned? It's obvious that as the number of turnings approach infinity, just about everything will have been tried. But as we don't know how much the Wheel has turned we really can't know that all has been tried. Add to this the Wheel's ability to fight innovation through predestiny.

Ieyasu argument is solid. We don't know what the Creator wants.

I believe that the Pattern basically is the prison (the Pattern, or Time, or some such nifty paradox, trapped behind reality). We have the Bore being drilled in the Pattern. The resulting increased thinness of the Pattern. And the resulting increased influence of the Dark One. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

If the Creator had the ability to create a world to hold down the Dark One. Why did he create a flawed one with people in it to open the prison?

If it was possible for something within the Pattern to destroy the Dark One, the Wheel would have spun out that someone or something long ago. Rand cannot affect anything that is not within the Pattern, and the Dark One certainly isn't.This is too assumptious for my taste. Fain is outside (or sidestepped) the Pattern, yet I certainly think Rand can affect Fain. Both physically, and mentally - by just being, Rand is an object of both Fain's and the Dark One's obsessions - Rand's actions affect their actions. The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Dark One mutually annihilated each other. This too is a clue that the Dark One can be... affected.

Ozymandias
12-02-2009, 03:37 PM
"If it was possible it would have been done" ... How do you know how many times the Wheel have turned? It's obvious that as the number of turnings approach infinity, just about everything will have been tried. But as we don't know how much the Wheel has turned we really can't know that all has been tried. Add to this the Wheel's ability to fight innovation through predestiny.

Thats a complete strawman argument. We know the Wheel is capable of turning out ta'veren at will to correct flaws in the Pattern. Thus, if the Pattern can produce a thread capable of destroying the Dark One completely, it can do so at will. Logically, if it was possible, it would have done so as soon as possible. We don't need to know how many times the Wheel has turned. It only needs to turn 1/7th of its first full rotation in order to produce an individual with the capability to kill the Dark One. Thats just fact. To assume that the Wheel can produce a person who can kill the Dark One and has not done so indicates that the Dark One plays some vital role in the workings of the universe, and therefore that the Wheel will not permit the Dark One to be killed. Its in inescapable logical bind. Which brings me to my next point

Ieyasu argument is solid. We don't know what the Creator wants.


Of course we do. If we assume the Creator has the power to destroy the Dark One, his choice not to do so indicates an acceptance of his presence. Its tacit approval. The Dark One is evil. The Creator's tolerance of its presence is an acknowledgement that the Dark One plays a role in the working of the universe.

Its completely irrelevant as to whether the Creator could not or would not, because they both equate to the same conclusion in this argument. If he cannot kill the Dark One, neither can Rand. If he would not kill the Dark One, Rand will not be permitted to do so either.

If the Creator had the ability to create a world to hold down the Dark One. Why did he create a flawed one with people in it to open the prison?

Well, there are clearly several possibilities here. One is that the Dark One has influence over the Pattern regardless, just to a much lesser extent, and thus managed to warp the intent of the Pattern so that someone drilled into his prison. Another is that the Creator is NOT powerful enough to defeat the Dark One (implying Rand cannot either), and thus merely did the best job he could. A third possibility is that, as I postulated before, the Dark One plays a vital role in the balancing act of the metaphysical universe Randland floats in, and thus is not only tolerated but to a certain extent expected to flourish to one degree or another.

This is too assumptious for my taste. Fain is outside (or sidestepped) the Pattern, yet I certainly think Rand can affect Fain. Both physically, and mentally - by just being, Rand is an object of both Fain's and the Dark One's obsessions - Rand's actions affect their actions. The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Dark One mutually annihilated each other. This too is a clue that the Dark One can be... affected.

The Taint was merely the touch of the Dark One, not the Dark One. A small trace of his passage, so to speak. It took the full evil of Shadar Logoth to divert away an infestimally small portion of Shai'tan's power... and Fain is merely a small fraction of the full power of Shadar Logoth.

And I object to the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern. Its a poor approximation of words for what his true status must be. He's not outside the Pattern, he's outside the control of the Wheel. His actions are still contained within the general framework of the Pattern; he responds to events the Pattern dictates, and the Pattern by necessity responds to his actions. The independent variable is that whatever plan the Pattern had for him is now gone, and he acts and reacts independently of the Wheel's guiding influence.

DeiwosTheSkyGod
12-02-2009, 04:10 PM
Of course we do. If we assume the Creator has the power to destroy the Dark One, his choice not to do so indicates an acceptance of his presence. Its tacit approval. The Dark One is evil. The Creator's tolerance of its presence is an acknowledgement that the Dark One plays a role in the working of the universe.

Do we assume that the Creator has that power, though? I don't think we really know all that much about Him. We might assume he's all-powerful because we picture God in our world to be all-powerful, but what if the Creator actually isn't?

Have you ever read Stephen King's IT? It might be like the ending of that book - the Turtle (the Creator) is a force of creation, but cannot take part in destruction, because that is the function of Pennywise (the Dark One). Maybe that's why the Creator has never taken part in beating the DO - he needs someone else to do it for him.

Dunno, just a thought.

And I object to the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern.

Pretty sure RJ said that Fain has sidestepped the Pattern.

Ieyasu
12-02-2009, 04:13 PM
Its completely irrelevant as to whether the Creator could not or would not, because they both equate to the same conclusion in this argument. If he cannot kill the Dark One, neither can Rand. If he would not kill the Dark One, Rand will not be permitted to do so either.


I don't think the Creator cares.

As Rand speculated, the Creator is like an errant gardener, planting worlds and allowing them to flourish or die on their own. He does not care whether they exist or not, he has already left the scene.

Trying to extrapolate what Rand can or cannot do by flimsy circular logic speculating what the Creator will or will not do is foolish. You do not know the limit of the Creator's powers or abilities. All we know about him is that he created the world, he sealed off the Dark One, and he has not intervened in world affairs since creation. Attempting to add to or take away from that is merely interjecting your personal opinion into what facts there are.

You say Rand will not be permitted to do so? Not permitted by whom? The absent Creator? Do you expect him to intervene and prevent Rand from doing so? Do you have any supporting evidence to back up your claim that he will not be permitted to do so? Your opinions on this matter are not fact, nor are they supportable from the books.

Personally I agree that Rand will not kill the Dark One, but it is by no means a certainty that he cannot do so.

The Taint was merely the touch of the Dark One, not the Dark One. A small trace of his passage, so to speak. It took the full evil of Shadar Logoth to divert away an infestimally small portion of Shai'tan's power... and Fain is merely a small fraction of the full power of Shadar Logoth.

Can you please provide some evidence backing up your claim that the taint was only and infestimally small portion of the Dark One's power? I'd be curious to see how this opinion of yours is quantifiable. How do you know how much of the Dark One's power was exerted in the taint?

And I object to the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern. Its a poor approximation of words for what his true status must be. He's not outside the Pattern, he's outside the control of the Wheel. His actions are still contained within the general framework of the Pattern; he responds to events the Pattern dictates, and the Pattern by necessity responds to his actions. The independent variable is that whatever plan the Pattern had for him is now gone, and he acts and reacts independently of the Wheel's guiding influence.

RJ's quote about Fain said nothing at all about the wheel, but it did mention the pattern.

Objection overruled.

JSUCamel
12-02-2009, 04:16 PM
How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

Well, we know that LTT believed something had to touch the Dark One. Saidin did, and so Saidin was tainted.

What if Fain/Mordeth's power touches the Dark One?

Remember in Rand's wound, Fain's dagger's power is/was fighting against the DO's evil in the wound. I can't recall if the wound was ever healed, but I believe the wound was contained when the Asha'man and Aes Sedai set the two evils upon each other.

Would Fain's power cancel out the Dark One's?

And going even further with that idea, what if Fain/Mordeth's power actually destroys the Dark One, and Fain becomes imprisoned outside the Pattern... and Ages from now, is referred to as the Dark One?

Way out there, I know, but just a thought.

Mat is Better
12-02-2009, 06:10 PM
It has never been implied the Forsaken are all knowing.
I'm referring to the fact that people have stated that because the forsaken, namely Moridin, don't know of a way to kill the DO, that it doesn't exist. I believe he can be killed. Again, I do not think that Rand alone can do it.

We'll probably never know because I don't think that is the direction RJ intended for the series to go and if it doesn't happen in the books, it is unlikely that RJ left information about it.

Ozymandias
12-02-2009, 06:53 PM
I don't think the Creator cares.

As Rand speculated, the Creator is like an errant gardener, planting worlds and allowing them to flourish or die on their own. He does not care whether they exist or not, he has already left the scene.

Your missing the point. Each world is a single flower in the garden, immaterial in and of itself. But the Dark One is a blight that spreads beyond the single flower, to the garden as a whole. He endangers every flower, the whole damn garden.

Trying to extrapolate what Rand can or cannot do by flimsy circular logic speculating what the Creator will or will not do is foolish. You do not know the limit of the Creator's powers or abilities. All we know about him is that he created the world, he sealed off the Dark One, and he has not intervened in world affairs since creation. Attempting to add to or take away from that is merely interjecting your personal opinion into what facts there are.

There are two facts. One is that the Creator did not kill the Dark One. Whatever his motivations, he took the time to imprison, but not kill, Shai'tan. The other is that the Pattern has done nothing to kill him. The Creator is clearly incapable. He took the time to imprison, but not destroy? You can't argue apathy, because imprisonment is not apathetic... he actively strove to seal the guy away before embarking on his celestial gardening mission. Thats not opinion. Thats fact. He was not apathetic to begin with, whatever his position now.

You say Rand will not be permitted to do so? Not permitted by whom? The absent Creator? Do you expect him to intervene and prevent Rand from doing so? Do you have any supporting evidence to back up your claim that he will not be permitted to do so? Your opinions on this matter are not fact, nor are they supportable from the books.

By the Wheel of Time. The Wheel controls everything. You might say it has a Pattern in mind. Many if not all of Rand's actions are predestined. By the Wheel. If Rand, a creature and tool of the Wheel, were able to kill the Dark One, then it stands to reason that the Wheel would have spun him out eons earlier to take care of business at some other time. Nothing makes this time special. Quite the opposite, this is one of 7 eras that are on repeat. Its the opposite of special, its old hat.

Personally I agree that Rand will not kill the Dark One, but it is by no means a certainty that he cannot do so.

A tiny smear of logic dictates that he cannot do so.

Can you please provide some evidence backing up your claim that the taint was only and infestimally small portion of the Dark One's power? I'd be curious to see how this opinion of yours is quantifiable. How do you know how much of the Dark One's power was exerted in the taint?

Well, lets see. For one, we know that the Dark One can but "touch" the world. Even at the height of his influence in the War of Power, it was still just a tiny spot for him to reach through. So yeah, its mere guesswork as to what portion of the Dark One was bound up in the Taint. But does it really make sense that he invested the greater portion of himself and his power in Tainting the Source on one world? And even if he did, Rand didn't destroy the Taint, he merely channeled it elsewhere from the Source, so it may still exist. Its likely, in fact.

RJ's quote about Fain said nothing at all about the wheel, but it did mention the pattern.

Objection overruled.

Then RJ is wrong. He either misspoke, or he has completely destroyed his own philosophy. Fain is a thread in the Pattern. He was spun out, originally, by the Wheel. He still exists within the Pattern. Its impossible for him not to. He acts and reacts according to the actions of others. It is quite possible that the Wheel no longer has control over him; that due to his exposure to Shadar Logoth and the Dark One, all the ties that bind him to the greater plan have been shattered. But he unquestionably still moves within the framework of the Pattern.

Either way, if there is no evidence, then why should we do anything other than believe Ishamael? Of every character in-book, he is the most qualified to discuss the Dark One. As one of the foremost philosophers in history, and the Dark One's most favored and closest servant, he is in a position to know. If you are doubting him, then you also are delving in the realm of pure speculation, and abandoning logic besides.

The Creator had the opportunity to kill the Dark One and declined to. The Pattern has had innumberable opportunities to kill the Dark One and has declined to. Thus, neither of them are capable of it. Thus, neither is Rand. Or, alternatively, they both chose not to, and thus Rand will not be able to, either.

Besides, the Third Age must come again, and when it does, the Dark One has to exist. Thus, Rand cannot kill the Dark One.

Belazamon
12-02-2009, 08:22 PM
There are two facts. One is that the Creator did not kill the Dark One. Whatever his motivations, he took the time to imprison, but not kill, Shai'tan. The other is that the Pattern has done nothing to kill him. The Creator is clearly incapable...

The Creator had the opportunity to kill the Dark One and declined to. The Pattern has had innumberable opportunities to kill the Dark One and has declined to. Thus, neither of them are capable of it. Thus, neither is Rand. Or, alternatively, they both chose not to, and thus Rand will not be able to, either.
Once again you're stating opinion as fact.

FACT: The Creator sealed the Dark One away rather than killing him.
OPINION: The Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One.

There may very well be some terribly inscrutable reason why the Creator would choose to imprison rather than destroy the Dark One. Just because you either can't think of one, or don't like any of the explanations that are offered, doesn't mean the possibility isn't there.

Then RJ is wrong. He either misspoke, or he has completely destroyed his own philosophy.
Either that, or you're not interpreting it the way he meant you to. ;)

Besides, the Third Age must come again, and when it does, the Dark One has to exist. Thus, Rand cannot kill the Dark One.
Unless, of course, this Age is different and RJ didn't want to give away the game. :D

Murphy
12-02-2009, 09:42 PM
It's an interesting question as to why the Creator did not destroy the Dark One. I suppose he didn't destroy the Dark One because he wanted humanity to remember all that is good in life and all that is worth fighting for.

But yes, there is no was that Rand can kill the Dark One. Rand is apart of the Pattern, the Dark One is outside of the pattern and wholly transcendent of it. But then that brings up the question as to how a thing of the Pattern (Rand, Lews Therin) can seal the Dark One away as that implies effecting something outside of the Pattern.

Thinking about things like this, it's no wonder Elan Morin destroyed himself.

Ozymandias
12-02-2009, 10:10 PM
Once again you're stating opinion as fact.

FACT: The Creator sealed the Dark One away rather than killing him.
OPINION: The Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One.

There may very well be some terribly inscrutable reason why the Creator would choose to imprison rather than destroy the Dark One. Just because you either can't think of one, or don't like any of the explanations that are offered, doesn't mean the possibility isn't there.


There are only two possible explanations. One is that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One. That explains why he is imprisoned and not killed. The other is that the Dark One is somehow vital to the cosmic machinery of Rand's universe, perhaps for the reasons Murphy laid out.

There is no other option. There just isn't. Lets rule out the latter option for a second. If the Dark One is not intrinsic to the universe as some basic force, then we have two more options. Again, that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One, or that he imprisoned him for a distinct reason. If the Dark One does not belong in Rand's universe, and the Creator was capable of killing him, he would have done so. There is only one reason for him to choose not to; because he wants the Dark One around for that inscrutable reason.

Either way, either the potential is there or it isn't. If it isn't, case closed; if the Creator couldn't, neither can Rand. If the potential to kill him is there, then he didn't kill him for a reason, meaning the Dark One fits into the cosmic plan somehow.


Unless, of course, this Age is different and RJ didn't want to give away the game. :D

Doubtful.

I'm not stating opinion as fact. I'm taking the one fact we know; that the Creator did not kill the Dark One, and extrapolating the only two possibilities. And there are only two. Its black and white; he has enough power to kill the Dark One, or he doesn't. If the latter, Rand won't be able to either. If the former, we need a reason for why the Creator created a breachable prison instead of outright killing him. And the only conclusion to be reached there is that the Dark One plays a part in the universe, and thus that the Wheel will not allow Rand to kill him.

If you can name me a logical third choice, I'm open to suggestion. Or if you can point out a flaw in my logic. Otherwise, its the only conclusion we can reach.

But then that brings up the question as to how a thing of the Pattern (Rand, Lews Therin) can seal the Dark One away as that implies effecting something outside of the Pattern.

Easy. Think of the Dark One's prison as keeping him OUT of the Pattern, as supposed to inside some space outside the Pattern. If the Prison is surrounding the Pattern, like a layer of lamination over a picture, then to drill through and allow the Dark One access is to drill out. And thus, patching the hole means replacing the lamination, which is touching upon the Pattern and this feasible for a Randlander to achieve.

Murphy
12-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Easy. Think of the Dark One's prison as keeping him OUT of the Pattern, as supposed to inside some space outside the Pattern. If the Prison is surrounding the Pattern, like a layer of lamination over a picture, then to drill through and allow the Dark One access is to drill out. And thus, patching the hole means replacing the lamination, which is touching upon the Pattern and this feasible for a Randlander to achieve.

Hm, yes. But would this not make the Dark One's "prison" its self apart of the Pattern? If this is the case, the Dark One should be able to manipulate his "prison" himself seeing as he is wholly superior to the Pattern. I think.. well I'm just throwing out random ideas right now :P.

nameless
12-02-2009, 10:55 PM
There are only two possible explanations. One is that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One. That explains why he is imprisoned and not killed. The other is that the Dark One is somehow vital to the cosmic machinery of Rand's universe, perhaps for the reasons Murphy laid out.

There is no other option. There just isn't. the potential is there or it isn't. If it isn't, case closed; if the Creator couldn't, neither can Rand. If the potential to kill him is there, then he didn't kill him for a reason, meaning the Dark One fits into the cosmic plan somehow.


...

If you can name me a logical third choice, I'm open to suggestion. Or if you can point out a flaw in my logic. Otherwise, its the only conclusion we can reach.


I can think of two off the top of my head.
1) The Creator is a pacifist and does not approve of killing for any reason, so he allowed the Dark One to live.
2) The Creator and the Dark One used to be friends and the Creator spared his life for sentimental reasons.

The first seems much more likely than the second, and they both seem pretty improbable compared to "the Creator's inneffable plan requires the presence of evil for the sake of free will" or some similar explanation, but even so you should probably take it easy with the whole "there is no other possible explantion" routine. There's ALWAYS another possible explanation.

Tercel
12-02-2009, 10:57 PM
Then RJ is wrong.:eek: You amuse me.

There are only two possible explanations. One is that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One. That explains why he is imprisoned and not killed. The other is that the Dark One is somehow vital to the cosmic machinery of Rand's universe, perhaps for the reasons Murphy laid out. There is no other option. There just isn't.Your 'logic' is ridiculous. There are many more options...

eg
1) The Creator is non-rational. We've had it hammered home through the series that the Dark One tends to be unpredictable by human standards, acting for inscrutable reasons. It's quite plausible that the Creator and the DO, insofar as they are non-human entities do not act according to what humans would understand as 'logic' or 'reasons'. Perhaps they are more like the wind and rain, natural forces acting out of non-rational principles, rather than having motivations and reasons like humans. The Creator creates worlds because that's what he does, he's a creative Force, and the DO seeks chaos and destruction because that's what he does, he's a destructive Force, but neither is rational agent in a human sense.

2) The Creator is insane. The Creator and DO do act with human-like motivations and reasons, but they're actually mentally insane. Really, in the World-Beyond, the Creator and the DO are inmates in an asylum and one created a universe and bound the other inside it. Bizarre but possible.

3) The Creator and DO are friends. Potentially one could kill the other, but they're actually cosmic buddies and have no interest in doing so.

4) The Creator is powerful enough to kill the Dark One, and an enemy of the Dark One. But the Creator is somewhat benevolent and doesn't really want to kill the Dark One (he's a pacifist, or doesn't like the death penalty, etc), so he just imprisons him as best he can. Most of the time it works, but sometimes the humans get carried away and start drilling holes in the DO's prision...

etc.

I'm taking the one fact we know; that the Creator did not kill the Dark One, and extrapolating the only two possibilities. And there are only two. Its black and white; he has enough power to kill the Dark One, or he doesn't. If the latter, Rand won't be able to either. If the former, we need a reason for why the Creator created a breachable prison instead of outright killing him. And the only conclusion to be reached there is that the Dark One plays a part in the universe, and thus that the Wheel will not allow Rand to kill him.Again ridiculous.

The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO. We have seen that there are different types of power in the series, and that the human-created evil of Shadar Logoth is unnaturally effective against the evil of the Dark One, far more so that the One Power (which, presumably is the Creator's power). It seems entirely plausible that the Creator does not have the right type of power at his disposal. He is locked in a dualistic ying-yang type situation with the Dark One where they are equal and opposite (chaos vs order, etc) and his power by its very natural is not the type of power that can truly kill the Dark One. However inventive human-kind, influenced by both the Creator and the Dark one, with part of each inside of them, can invent things such as the evil of Shadar Logoth, an Evil That Kills Evil... something neither the Creator nor DO ever expected or imagined perhaps...

I can imagine the Creator and the Dark One to be two cosmic beings who can touch the world and each other by virtue of the fact that they are cosmic beings. I can imagine the Creator to be under a self-imposed benevolent restriction not to interfere, while the DO would like to destroy the world. The Creator knows what the DO would like to do and did his best to block the DO's access to the world when he created it. I don't imagine the Creator to have "imprisioned" the Dark One in a cosmic sense, but rather imagine him putting barriers in place around his creation to stop the Dark One touching it. So I see the world as being protected from the DO, with the Creator and DO together outside it, rather than the DO being imprisoned in the world away from the Creator.

You seem to arbitrarily ignore/exclude this scenario in your 'logic'. But your 'logic' seems to mainly consist of asserting that the first two possibilities you can think of a are the only possibilities rather than any real careful thinking.

Belazamon
12-02-2009, 11:29 PM
You seem to arbitrarily ignore/exclude this scenario in your 'logic'. But your 'logic' seems to mainly consist of asserting that the first two possibilities you can think of a are the only possibilities rather than any real careful thinking.
Everything you posted, but mostly this. :D

1Powerslave
12-03-2009, 04:43 AM
And going even further with that idea, what if Fain/Mordeth's power actually destroys the Dark One, and Fain becomes imprisoned outside the Pattern... and Ages from now, is referred to as the Dark One?

Way out there, I know, but just a thought.
I like this idea. The only problem I have with it is that Fain seems to be very tiny in power compared to the Dark One. But who knows, maybe the Shadar Logothic power can be drawn from the desperation of the whole world at some point in Tarmon Gaidon, and that that power would be enough to take over and dispatch the Dark One. In any case, a very nice idea, I wouldn't much mind if it went down like that. :)

Though I have an inkling feeling that this is something that has been asked and dispelled by a question to RJ.

Terez
12-03-2009, 08:00 AM
Y'all might want to throw some more tags on this thread as it's hijacked. I already put as many as I can on it...

Bonzi77
12-03-2009, 08:24 AM
The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO. We have seen that there are different types of power in the series, and that the human-created evil of Shadar Logoth is unnaturally effective against the evil of the Dark One, far more so that the One Power (which, presumably is the Creator's power). It seems entirely plausible that the Creator does not have the right type of power at his disposal. He is locked in a dualistic ying-yang type situation with the Dark One where they are equal and opposite (chaos vs order, etc) and his power by its very natural is not the type of power that can truly kill the Dark One. However inventive human-kind, influenced by both the Creator and the Dark one, with part of each inside of them, can invent things such as the evil of Shadar Logoth, an Evil That Kills Evil... something neither the Creator nor DO ever expected or imagined perhaps...



That whole post was great, but this part in particular. And if this is true than maybe it is possible that Rand CAN kill the Dark One, either by using Fain somehow, or by commandeering the true power, or maybe even through his own strength in the One Power.

But if he can, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should. Remember, all Moridin said is that the idea of killing the Dark One is stupid. He didn't say why it was stupid. Maybe it's a stupid idea because it's impossible. Or maybe it's a stupid idea because the Dark One is a necessary evil and the pattern would somehow unravel without him. One of the running themes of this series is balance. The Dark One might be a required force to balance the creator. Death to balance life. Destruction to balance creation. The world doesn't work without that balance. Maybe existence and the continued turning of the Wheel requires the existence of both Creator and Dark One sealed outside the pattern.

Ozymandias
12-03-2009, 04:29 PM
:eek: You amuse me.

Your 'logic' is ridiculous. There are many more options...

eg
1) The Creator is non-rational. We've had it hammered home through the series that the Dark One tends to be unpredictable by human standards, acting for inscrutable reasons. It's quite plausible that the Creator and the DO, insofar as they are non-human entities do not act according to what humans would understand as 'logic' or 'reasons'. Perhaps they are more like the wind and rain, natural forces acting out of non-rational principles, rather than having motivations and reasons like humans. The Creator creates worlds because that's what he does, he's a creative Force, and the DO seeks chaos and destruction because that's what he does, he's a destructive Force, but neither is rational agent in a human sense.

2) The Creator is insane. The Creator and DO do act with human-like motivations and reasons, but they're actually mentally insane. Really, in the World-Beyond, the Creator and the DO are inmates in an asylum and one created a universe and bound the other inside it. Bizarre but possible.

3) The Creator and DO are friends. Potentially one could kill the other, but they're actually cosmic buddies and have no interest in doing so.

4) The Creator is powerful enough to kill the Dark One, and an enemy of the Dark One. But the Creator is somewhat benevolent and doesn't really want to kill the Dark One (he's a pacifist, or doesn't like the death penalty, etc), so he just imprisons him as best he can. Most of the time it works, but sometimes the humans get carried away and start drilling holes in the DO's prision...


And you call this logic? I made an attempt. So far, your other options boil down to the Creator and Dark One being great friends, which beyond pure speculation, goes against just about everything RJ professed to believe about his universe (that there is sometimes black and white, evil and good, and not a shade of gray), which would strongly work against any idea that the Dark One and Creator are friends or anything but elemental forces that are polar opposites. Which is, in fact, what they are. #2 is calling the Creator insane. So much evidence for that. As for this little gem:

We've had it hammered home through the series that the Dark One tends to be unpredictable by human standards, acting for inscrutable reasons

This has not been "hammered home" and never was. If your not intelligent enough to comprehend the concept of nihilism, then I'll excuse your ignorance on the matter, but far from being driven in that the Dark One works for inscrutable ends, he in fact works for a very easy goal to comprehend. The characters in the book generally fail to understand this, but we don't. Or perhaps all of us excluding you. He wants to destroy the Wheel of Time, because that is his nature. His human servants are predicatable in their actions because they want things all humans want; the Dark one wants something no human would want, and thus his motivations are completely foreign to human comprehension


The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO.

The True Source > the True Power. If we assume (and I personally think this is a safe assumption) that the Creator can draw on the One Power to an unlimited degree (seeing as he is a being of unlimited power, being God) or even take the tack that the One Power is the Creator, in much the same way that the True Power is the Dark One, then the Creator has the power to defeat the Dark One.

We have seen that there are different types of power in the series, and that the human-created evil of Shadar Logoth is unnaturally effective against the evil of the Dark One, far more so that the One Power (which, presumably is the Creator's power)

Again, I'm not totally sure this is the way things work. First, I would argue that the power concentrated in Shadar Logoth is far greater than that in Fain. Mordeth is just a seed; Shadar Logoth is a city full of hate, and it barely sufficed to get rid of the Taint, much less the Dark One. Second, I'm not precisely sure that this is how the Cleansing worked. As in, I don't think it was mix 1 and 2, and both go poof! In reading some of the Q&A's it seems like there was some other dynamic at work, too, which included that kind of negative opposition.

It seems entirely plausible that the Creator does not have the right type of power at his disposal. He is locked in a dualistic ying-yang type situation with the Dark One where they are equal and opposite (chaos vs order, etc)

If they are equals, then he cannot kill the Dark One. Since Rand does not have access to power the Creator doesn't, he cannot kill the Dark One either.

and his power by its very natural is not the type of power that can truly kill the Dark One. However inventive human-kind, influenced by both the Creator and the Dark one, with part of each inside of them, can invent things such as the evil of Shadar Logoth, an Evil That Kills Evil... something neither the Creator nor DO ever expected or imagined perhaps...

Which means Rand would have to become evil, as evil as Mashadar and Shadar Logoth, which would destroy itself and the world anyways before it could kill the Dark One, just as it did the first time.

I can imagine the Creator to be under a self-imposed benevolent restriction not to interfere, while the DO would like to destroy the world.

Seems reasonable.

The Creator knows what the DO would like to do and did his best to block the DO's access to the world when he created it. I don't imagine the Creator to have "imprisioned" the Dark One in a cosmic sense, but rather imagine him putting barriers in place around his creation to stop the Dark One touching it

So he put up barriers that can be breached? Seems unlikely. That someone as comparatively weak as Mierin can bore through something the ultimate power in the universe created? Its like saying a termite could dig a hole through a box made of a titanium-steel alloy. If it was made deliberately weak, out of wood, say, then its possible. But if the Creator made the prison as powerful as possible with his utmost energy, then no power short of that should be able to breach it.

So I see the world as being protected from the DO, with the Creator and DO together outside it, rather than the DO being imprisoned in the world away from the Creator.

You seem to arbitrarily ignore/exclude this scenario in your 'logic'. But your 'logic' seems to mainly consist of asserting that the first two possibilities you can think of a are the only possibilities rather than any real careful thinking.

I am fully in agreement with that supposition. Far from ignoring it, I incorporate it. It all boils down to one fact. Either the Creator can destroy the Dark One, or can't. If he can, then he chose not to do so. If he can't, then I doubt any power on earth can do so.

It makes absolutely no sense to assume that the Creator can get rid of the Dark One but decided not to, because they're really cosmic super best friends having a little spat, or some ridiculous nonsense. If the Dark One does not belong in this universe, then the Creator would have gotten rid of him. Going back to the garden analogy, you don't plant a garden when you know there is bacteria in the soil that will kill everything you grow. I realize the Creator is supposed to be beyond human comprehension, but if he created the universe, it stands to reason he wants it to flourish. He may not care about individual worlds, but he doesn't create them in the assumption that they fail. Whether or not they do is immaterial to him, but his hope is that they all do well. The very act of Creation justifies this; you don't create in the hopes of destruction. Thus, he would not have Created in an atmosphere where he knew all his creations were doomed to failure.

Finally, lets end with some concluding thoughts. First off is this gem.

Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.

Balefire is out as a weapon. In fact, through our repeated exposure to the massive power of the Choedan Kal, and this supporting quote, we can reasonably assume that to use the Power to destroy the Dark One would just as quickly destroy the world, thus ruling it out as an option.

Perhaps Fain can kill the Dark One. If he even wants to, his only desire seems to be killing Rand. But Rand cannot do it.

Belazamon
12-03-2009, 04:47 PM
Ozy, you appear to be falling into the Felix Trap™. It's very nice that you have opinions, and it's very nice that they're strong opinions, but... well...

Ozymandias
12-03-2009, 04:59 PM
Ozy, you appear to be falling into the Felix Trap™. It's very nice that you have opinions, and it's very nice that they're strong opinions, but... well...

If someone chooses to demean my logic as ridiculous, while simultaneously spouting off about how the Creator and Dark One are involved in this fantastically romantic homosexual affair, I feel little compunction in rudely disregarding that opinion, much as whoever that someone may have been (and its not always Tercel) derided mine.

Belazamon
12-03-2009, 05:16 PM
spouting off about how the Creator and Dark One are involved in this fantastically romantic homosexual affair
Cool strawman. Does it come in "twig" too? :D

Putting aside any slights, perceived or real - the fact remains that there are other explanations that you simply don't agree with. "Rudely disregard" as you please, but it only weakens your argument to deal with them in such a fashion.

Ozymandias
12-03-2009, 05:25 PM
Cool strawman. Does it come in "twig" too? :D

Putting aside any slights, perceived or real - the fact remains that there are other explanations that you simply don't agree with. "Rudely disregard" as you please, but it only weakens your argument to deal with them in such a fashion.

The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.

I'm dismissing their explanations as illogical or purely speculative. Their entire case is that I am arrogating my opinion to the position of fact. I'm saying I'm choosing the most reasonable option. Part of demonstrating that my option is the most reasonable, is reducing their options to a status of lesser reasonableness. Yeah, I think I did just make up a word.

There will always be opinions I, or you, or anyone, will disagree with. Its part of the human condition that there is no action that will always be considered good or bad. You might find a greater consensus for some actions one way or another, but there is always an outlier. Being "right" merely means having the solid weight of evidence and popular opinion behind you. Thus, degrading the opposition's opinion while strengthening your own.

Crispin's Crispian
12-03-2009, 06:13 PM
The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.


That's not the only alternative, though. Your gave your opinion on the other alternative--that if the Creator cannot destroy the Dark One, Rand certainly cannot.

But as Tercel pointed out, Shadar Logoth itself is an example of a human-created power that is not accessible to the Dark One or the Creator (so far as we know). What other powers might be accessible or produced by humans or beings inside the Pattern?

Arguments about whether Creator could have killed the Dark One are immaterial, because he already said:

"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

Unfortunately that doesn't answer the question, since he's staying away per his will, but also telling Rand only he has the power. Plus, "what must be done?" But in any case, it's clear that Rand has to do something, and he has or will have the power to do something that the Creator will not or cannot do.


Also:

So he put up barriers that can be breached? Seems unlikely. That someone as comparatively weak as Mierin can bore through something the ultimate power in the universe created? Its like saying a termite could dig a hole through a box made of a titanium-steel alloy. If it was made deliberately weak, out of wood, say, then its possible. But if the Creator made the prison as powerful as possible with his utmost energy, then no power short of that should be able to breach it.
I don't understand, because Mierin did breach the prison (whatever it's nature). I can't tell: are you saying that the Creator did want the Dark One to have influence every few Ages? You said earlier that the Creator surely didn't want the Dark One mucking around with his creation--they are antitheses, after all. So why would be build a prison that a termite like Mierin could breach? Is he just not strong enough to stop humans from doing that?

What other things might he (or the Dark One) be too weak to stop?

nameless
12-03-2009, 09:08 PM
The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.

I'm dismissing their explanations as illogical or purely speculative. Their entire case is that I am arrogating my opinion to the position of fact. I'm saying I'm choosing the most reasonable option. Part of demonstrating that my option is the most reasonable, is reducing their options to a status of lesser reasonableness. Yeah, I think I did just make up a word.

There will always be opinions I, or you, or anyone, will disagree with. Its part of the human condition that there is no action that will always be considered good or bad. You might find a greater consensus for some actions one way or another, but there is always an outlier. Being "right" merely means having the solid weight of evidence and popular opinion behind you. Thus, degrading the opposition's opinion while strengthening your own.

That was one alternative out of the four or five that have been mentioned so far. Focusing on a distorted version of a single aspect of the opposistion's arguments while ignoring all the others is pretty much the definition of "straw man."

Belazamon
12-03-2009, 09:39 PM
1) The Creator is non-rational.

2) The Creator is insane.

3) The Creator and DO are friends.

4) ... the Creator is somewhat benevolent and doesn't really want to kill the Dark One (he's a pacifist, or doesn't like the death penalty, etc), so he just imprisons him as best he can.

[kinda 5)] The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO.

The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.
As nameless points out, there were at least five different alternatives to your conclusion. You seem to have latched onto this one in particular, presumably because it's the most easily argued against.

Personally I think 1) and 2) are roughly equivalent for our purposes - if the Creator is ineffable to humanity, then by our standards he would be functionally "insane." It's only a failure of perspective, though. Regardless, if you allow the probability that such Mighty Cosmic Beings are probably Beyond Our Comprehension, then it's incredibly difficult to argue against the idea that we simply cannot comprehend why the Creator didn't kill the Dark One even though he could. This particular theory is, IMHO, not capable of being refuted with our current knowledge base.

3) is the one you seem to be using as a summation of all our arguments, and I would agree that it's the weakest, based on the whole "opposite but equal" theory. However, we can once again remove the all-too-human concept of "friendship" from the equation, and simply posit that the two are more along the lines of "forces of nature" - in other words, they have no interest whatsoever in "destroying" each other, but instead exist solely to fulfill their functions. The Creator creates things, the Dark One destroys things, these functions overlap/interfere with each other sometimes - that's just the way the cosmic world works.

4) and ersatz-5), I think, can also be approached as aspects of the same theory - perhaps it's as simple as the Creator creates, and isn't capable of destroying. Therefore, what could the Creator do to stop the Dark One if he can't destroy him? He could a) Create something to imprison him, or b) Create something that actually was capable of destroying him. Or my personal favorite, c) both.

Tercel
12-03-2009, 10:58 PM
However, we can once again remove the all-too-human concept of "friendship" from the equation, and simply posit that the two are more along the lines of "forces of nature" - in other words, they have no interest whatsoever in "destroying" each other, but instead exist solely to fulfill their functions. The Creator creates things, the Dark One destroys things, these functions overlap/interfere with each other sometimes - that's just the way the cosmic world works.I think a variant of "the Creator and DO are friends" is highly defensible, if "friends" is understood to mean "anything short of mortal enemies". In the real world, people have different goals sometimes and different desires, but its only very very rarely that conflicting goals lead to being truly mortal enemies. Even people that hate each other rarely kill each other.

Perhaps the Creator and the DO are two among many Cosmic beings, or perhaps they are the only two. Either way, it seems reasonable that they might have some disagreements without being forced to be mortal enemies and kill one another. It's one thing to battle over the fate of a created world, using surrogates, it's quite another thing to attempt to destroy each other directly. The world could be a game for them, a contest, or perhaps they really do dislike each other but that dislike comes short of obliterating one another.

Personally, if I was one of only two Beings in the universe, I would feel a sense of kinship to the other. Even if I disagreed with the other's goals I wouldn't want to kill them and be alone. I would instead try to hammer out an agreement with them and reach a compromise we both found satisfactory. When I suggest the DO and the Creator are 'friends' I am really thinking of this sense of 'kinship' existing between the two entities even if they disagree and dislike each other.

Tercel
12-03-2009, 11:16 PM
But if the Creator made the prison as powerful as possible with his utmost energy, then no power short of that should be able to breach it.But, of course, Miern was using the Creator's own power, ie the One Power... so yes, the Creator had imprisoned the DO well enough that nothing short of the Creator's own power could get him out.

I know you meant amount of power rather than type of power, but really there's not any hard evidence that the Creator could have made the bore harder to create by using 'more' of the power.

"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."I find that quote fascinating... "I WILL [NOT]" not "I CAN [NOT]". It seems to imply it is a decision by the Creator, not necessarily an inability.

Personally I think the Creator bothering to speak to Rand is good evidence that the Creator is in fact a bit more interested in the world than some characters suppose. For example, Rand's Moridin-inspired belief that the Creator just goes on creating hundreds of worlds like flowers never weeping for those that die strikes me as pure unevidenced speculation. If the Creator cared that little, why bother to speak to Rand at all?

But as Tercel pointed out, Shadar Logoth itself is an example of a human-created power that is not accessible to the Dark One or the Creator (so far as we know). What other powers might be accessible or produced by humans or beings inside the Pattern?An interesting question, because BS said at a recent signing that Mordeth had deliberately sought out types of power that could help defeat the Dark One. Presumably the evil at Shadar Logoth represents one particular type of power, but Sanderson seemed to me to imply that Mordeth had also found others and/or others existed to be found. Even the Creator and the DO may have little inkling or understanding of these alternate powers that humans can tap.

Random thought... If human anti-DO evil resonates with and can destroy the DO's power, then could human anti-Creator goodness resonate with and destroy the Creator's power? eg could benevolent atheism such as the Enlightenment actually lead to the destruction of the One Power?

Robo-Hillbilly
12-04-2009, 12:01 AM
4) and ersatz-5), I think, can also be approached as aspects of the same theory - perhaps it's as simple as the Creator creates, and isn't capable of destroying. Therefore, what could the Creator do to stop the Dark One if he can't destroy him? He could a) Create something to imprison him, or b) Create something that actually was capable of destroying him. Or my personal favorite, c) both.


I agree the Creator is simply that a creator. He is not a destroyer. He has the power to create. Awesome power but with a specific purpose of creation. The DO is the destroyer.

The creator created the wheel and the DO desires to destroy it. Good vs. Evil and all that stuff. This is a "logical" view is it not?

The creator then creates the "prison" to keep the DO from destroying, to use the analogy, his
(pattern) garden. while the garden is fenced, the rabbit (DO) cannot eat the carrots.

Then someone or something bores a whole through the fence allowing the DO to send minions in to destroy the garden. The pattern made by the creator to protect his creation spins out the Dragon to oppose the destruction causing all this nauseous spinning.

During this vicious cycle repair, weaken break, repair. The pattern spins out Mordeth who gathers various evils in his study to oppose the DO and forms an evil the creator did not intend. RJ and Brandon have said Fain is in some way outside of the pattern. We also know the evil from Fain and the DO battle in Rand's wound. The evil of SL destroyed the taint of Sadin. This is something not in the past turns of the wheel.

This is the key to the DO's destruction.

I look at it like a chemical reaction. One evil by itself may be destructive and vicious but both fighting each other with such zeal the rest of the world is forgotten until both evils destroy each other. This reaction could be very slow and need both the DO and Fain sealed away, or it could be very violent like a nuke and be very destructive but end quickly.

Tercel
12-04-2009, 02:30 AM
The pattern spins out Mordeth who gathers various evils in his study to oppose the DO and forms an evil the creator did not intend. RJ and Brandon have said Fain is in some way outside of the pattern. We also know the evil from Fain and the DO battle in Rand's wound. The evil of SL destroyed the taint of Sadin. This is something not in the past turns of the wheel.Also, something else that is potentially a "first" in the history of the Wheel is Rand's bond with Moridin. Moridin certainly wasn't expecting it, and isn't happy about it. We're given the impression in the series that Moridin understands and follows the desires of the Dark One well, so a fair implication is that if he wasn't expecting it and doesn't like it, then neither does the Dark One. Yet if this was something that had happened regularly in past turnings of the Wheel, we would expect the DO to be prepared for this and have prepared Moridin for this, be planning to use it against Rand, but in fact that does not seem to be the case.

And we have seen that the link allows Rand to access the True Power. If we stop and think about it, that's pretty "wow". The Creator's champion can now use the Dark One's own energies. Brandon made clear at the book signings that the Dark One did not give permission to Rand to use the True Power, the Dark One wasn't intending the Creator's champion to wield his power.

So I speculate that in this turning of the Wheel, not only is there loose a new Power (Shadar Logoth) that is different to anything the Dark One has encountered before, but also new is that the Creator's champion can now wield not only the Creator's power but the Dark One's power also.

Oh, and let's not forget that the new Power of Shadar Logoth is now sitting inside of a person whom the Dark One has personally touched with his own power, and who is thus -in Moiraine's estimation at least- something "more" than merely the combination of Mordeth and a DO-touched darkfriend. The power of SL by itself was enough to annihilate the DO's power tainting Saidin, but if Fain is something even "more" than that, as a result of the DO's power in him, yet another new evil Power, what can he do?

So, in my estimation, in this Age there are three new types of Power that the Dark One has never faced before...

Rahvin571
12-04-2009, 04:25 AM
Hey everyone.

I'd like to propose another option I haven't really seen so far. It is sort of a variation of the thought that the Creator can kill the Dark One, but doesn't.

I don't buy the logic that because the DO and the Creator are equal they cannot harm each other. Picture this: you clone yourself. Now you have someone who is exactly your equal. Now let's say the two of you decide to fight each other. There are 4 possible outcomes.

1) You and Clone-You break off/don't start the fight. No one gets hurt.

2) You win!

3) Clone-You wins.

4) Both parties lose. Maybe you both gave each other fatal wounds or something.


The Creator's option's boil into 2 separate groups. There's the 1st option in which no one is harmed. I think that this is the status quo - the Creator isn't interfering because he doesn't want get in a fight that could have dire outcomes. It's easier (and much different!) to try and wall up your creations (as imperfect as walls may be) than to actively hunt down and kill someone who wants to ruin your garden.

Choosing this option saves the Creator from having to perform one of the group 2 actions - picking a fight. If the DO and the Creator really are equal, there isn't any way of telling who would win. Even if the Creator does have more cards than the DO does, its possible the outcome isn't set in stone.
Not to make the Creator out to be too much of a coward, but why risk death (the end of all new life) just to save a garden? New ones can always be made. Isn't that sort of like Rand's revelation at the end of tGS? It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all? The Creator creates a universe. Billions live, love, die. The DO finally breaks free and kills everything. Creator starts over and billions more get to love. Repeat.

The other fighting option is option 4. Maybe if the DO and the Creator fought they would both die. How would that affect the worlds? I'm guessing the it wouldn't be very good... Besides, I'm of the opinion that the DO and the Creator, opposites like they are, aren't equally matched Yin-Yang style. I venture that they're more like the Osan'gar and the Aran'gar. They are weapons for the opposite hand, but every fight with them ultimately ends up with both participants lying dead.

Maybe the reasons the Creator doesn't want to kill off the DO are that he doesn't want to die and that he doesn't want to stop his source of life.


Wow... that became really long.

Yuri33
12-04-2009, 04:47 AM
Everyone is humanizing the Creator too much. The DO is humanized as well, but there's much more evidence to support that view than there is for the Creator.

To me, the Creator caring about concepts like winning and killing and destroying just don't fit properly. Boiled down, here's what I believe we know about the Creator.

1. Creator created the Pattern and imprisoned the DO at the moment of creation.

2. Status quo = DO continuing to be imprisoned.

3. Creator intends to keep the status quo for all time.

4. The Creator "WILL TAKE NO PART"

And that's it. Whether anything else happens is up to the "CHOSEN ONE...IF HE WILL."

Whether we believe the Creator is sympathetic or suffers while he watches all this play out turn after turn or not becomes irrelevant, and frankly such emotions and motivations are better assigned to the humans that are part of the Pattern rather than the Creator who is not.

1Powerslave
12-04-2009, 07:28 AM
It could be as simple as Yin Yang.

1. The Dark One kills the Creator.
Consequence: He will after some time have destroyed all that the Creator ever created while he lived. Nothing more is left in the universe. The Dark One has nothing left to destroy. Nothing left but himself.

Yeah, it's a sort of extrapolation on the previous ideas about these entities exists to fulfill a purpose, the Dark One destroys, that is all he is. Basically.

2. The Creator kills the Dark One.
Consequence: The Creator will continue to create worlds, but now unhindered. His purpose is to create worlds, he cannot stop. The number of worlds will grow too many. The flowers in the garden will become too many for flowers to grow. They will fight amongst themselves for nurishment, and none will get enough, they will all die. And when they are all dead, the garden will be totally infertile.

So the Dark One keeps the garden fertile. Keeps the need for creation up.

Yin Yang:
the concept of yin yang ([yin – simplified Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_characters): 阴; traditional Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_characters): 陰; pinyin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin): yīn] [yang - simplified Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_characters): 阳; traditional Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_characters): 陽; pinyin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin): yáng] Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language): eum-yang; Vietnamese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language): Âm Dương; often referred to in the west as yin and yang) is used to describe how seemingly disjunct or opposing forces are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, giving rise to each other in turn. The concept lies at the heart of many branches of classical Chinese science and philosophy, as well as being a primary guideline of traditional Chinese medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang#cite_note-Porkert1974-0) and a central principle of different forms of Chinese martial arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_martial_arts) and exercise, such as baguazhang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguazhang), taijiquan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taijiquan), and qigong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong). Many natural dualities — e.g. dark and light, female and male, low and high — are viewed in Chinese thought as manifestations of yin and yang. "Yin means dark and cold, while Yang means bright and hot. The idea of Yin-Yang originated from the ancient Chinese philosophy of Fu Xi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Xi) (伏羲)." According to the philosophy, yin and yang are complementary opposites within a greater whole. Everything has both yin and yang aspects, which constantly interact, never existing in absolute stasis. Compare wuji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuji_%28philosophy%29). Yin and yang is symbolized by various forms of the Taijitu. It is commonly believed (especially in the West) that yin and yang correspond to "good" and "evil"; however, this was not an aspect included in ancient forms of the philosophy. The idea of yin and yang having a "moral" aspect was originated by the Confucian school (most notably Dong Zhongshu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Zhongshu)) around the second century BCE[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang#cite_note-1).
-- Further reading in that Wikipedia article encounters more similarities with WoT.



Yin Yang. I.e. the Dark One and the Creator are firmly connected, one cannot exist without the other. Etc.



Obviously RJ has used Yin Yang in a lot of aspects in the books. The Ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, male and femal half of the Source, balance in the Pattern (not good winning it completely), it is not a stretch that the Dark One and the Creator's relationship may be defined loosely around Yin and Yang. Course it is not a complete given until it is stated outright.

Tree Brother
12-04-2009, 08:12 AM
Also, something else that is potentially a "first" in the history of the Wheel is Rand's bond with Moridin. Moridin certainly wasn't expecting it, and isn't happy about it. We're given the impression in the series that Moridin understands and follows the desires of the Dark One well, so a fair implication is that if he wasn't expecting it and doesn't like it, then neither does the Dark One. Yet if this was something that had happened regularly in past turnings of the Wheel, we would expect the DO to be prepared for this and have prepared Moridin for this, be planning to use it against Rand, but in fact that does not seem to be the case.

There are many mentions in these books, that turning the Creator's champion is desireable, that maybe the DO even wants Rand as Nae'blis. So giving Rand the DO's power, and corrupting him in that fashion doesn't seem out of line. That could be one of the DO's goals, whether he tells his minions or not.

Bonzi77
12-04-2009, 08:33 AM
Yin Yang. I.e. the Dark One and the Creator are firmly connected, one cannot exist without the other. Etc.



Which goes with what I said earlier. Maybe Rand CAN kill the Dark One. But maybe he shouldn't.

bluejam
12-04-2009, 09:27 AM
Thats a complete strawman argument. We know the Wheel is capable of turning out ta'veren at will to correct flaws in the Pattern. Thus, if the Pattern can produce a thread capable of destroying the Dark One completely, it can do so at will. Logically, if it was possible, it would have done so as soon as possible. We don't need to know how many times the Wheel has turned. It only needs to turn 1/7th of its first full rotation in order to produce an individual with the capability to kill the Dark One. Thats just fact. To assume that the Wheel can produce a person who can kill the Dark One and has not done so indicates that the Dark One plays some vital role in the workings of the universe, and therefore that the Wheel will not permit the Dark One to be killed. Its in inescapable logical bind. Which brings me to my next point


The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.

Hence why the heroes of the horn sometimes fight on the other side, the pattern is neutral, the Creator doesn't want the DO gone, it'd destroy the neutrality.

So you're right I guess, if Rand were to try and kill the DO the Pattern would weave in ways to stop him, but since Fain has been said to be outside the pattern, you never know.

GonzoTheGreat
12-04-2009, 10:14 AM
The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.I think that's a mistaken view of what ta'veren are about.

It is true that the random ta'veren effects seem to be neutral. However, the non-random ones are all geared towards helping the Light, as far as I remember.

I can't think of any ta'veren effect involving one of the main characters which was slanted towards the Shadow.
The closest I can think of is Rand allowing Elza to serve him, and that should be credited more to Verin and Min than to his ta'verenness, it seems.

Belazamon
12-04-2009, 12:33 PM
The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.
I think that's a mistaken view of what ta'veren are about.
No, I think he's absolutely correct. From the BWB:The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. So begins each saga within the World of the Wheel, a universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern it spins. A pattern in which light and dark, good and evil, male and female, and life and death struggle for balance within the weave of destiny...

The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.
I think people tend to get a little too wrapped-up in the good vs. evil dichotomy, and go the more traditional epic-fantasy route that Good Must Prevail. That's not how this world works.

It is true that the random ta'veren effects seem to be neutral. However, the non-random ones are all geared towards helping the Light, as far as I remember.
That's because the Dark One's influence is becoming too strong and direct. Duh. :D

bluejam
12-04-2009, 02:17 PM
Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.

So any chances of Rand or anyone killing the DO would be nil because the Pattern would make sure it doesn't happen.

But this is why I think this Age is different, and that Fain is the key to something different happening.

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

So Fain is actually a wildcard that is not controlled by the Pattern, or at least not fully, even the Forsaken are controlled by the Pattern, this is what makes the DO's job so tough, when he tries to get out, the Pattern makes sure it doesn't happen.

More Q/A's that are relevant:

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?
Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

This is also why sometimes the Heroes have fought on the other side, there is no good or evil in the Pattern, and when it does start getting out of whack the Pattern weaves it through Heroes and ta'veren to bring it back to the middle.

halo6819
12-04-2009, 02:55 PM
probably not a great place for my first post but here it goes.

It is possible that the creator has the power to kill the DO but he cant because he is THE CREATOR. like in sandersons mistborn, ruin could only destroy and preservation preserve, but neither could create because that wasnt the scope of either of there powers.

So the Creator can create the world, pattern, everything, but he can not destroy anything as it is not within his scope of powers. He can however create a prison, because well its creation.

sorry if this point was brought up before, i could only read so much sniping back and forth :D

Crispin's Crispian
12-04-2009, 03:32 PM
Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.

So any chances of Rand or anyone killing the DO would be nil because the Pattern would make sure it doesn't happen.
Why then did the Creator seal the DO away from the Pattern? The DO is throwing the balance off, and since the Creator can't counterbalance the DO, things are messed up.

This vaunted "balance" doesn't include the Creator and the DO, only humans. Otherwise the DO would never have been completely sealed away. Unless you're suggesting again that the Creator deliberately made the prison breachable by humans.

Belazamon
12-04-2009, 03:32 PM
Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.
This, I don't necessarily agree with. The Pattern seems perfectly capable of balancing good and evil without the much-greater outside influence of the Dark One. It's not as though His touch is required for bad things to happen in the Pattern - see Mordeth, most of the Chosen before the Bore was opened, etc.

So the Creator can create the world, pattern, everything, but he can not destroy anything as it is not within his scope of powers. He can however create a prison, because well its creation.

sorry if this point was brought up before, i could only read so much sniping back and forth :D
Yeah, I brought it up in one of my posts, but as it's my favorite of all the theories, I'll give you a pass on that one. :D

bluejam
12-04-2009, 04:35 PM
Why then did the Creator seal the DO away from the Pattern? The DO is throwing the balance off, and since the Creator can't counterbalance the DO, things are messed up.

This vaunted "balance" doesn't include the Creator and the DO, only humans. Otherwise the DO would never have been completely sealed away. Unless you're suggesting again that the Creator deliberately made the prison breachable by humans.

I guess I should have prefaced my post by saying I'm going under the assumption the Creator really is an all-knowing all-powerful God. In that case the Creator would have to know that whatever was keeping this world separated from Shai'tan's prison could be drilled into, he allegedly made it afterall.

We really don't know enough about either, but there needs to be an evil to balance out the good. There's no reason to create Shai'tan in the first place if there didn't need to be.

Also Bela, I was always under the impression that there weren't any Chosen before they felt the True Power and drilled into it, is that wrong? It doesn't really matter, the belief was there I think, just wondering.

Edit: I was also under the impression that the Mordeth evil was an ancient evil, but an evil that was born out of a way of destroying Shai'tan, in which case it never would have existed without a Dark One there to begin with.

Belazamon
12-04-2009, 05:11 PM
Also Bela, I was always under the impression that there weren't any Chosen before they felt the True Power and drilled into it, is that wrong? It doesn't really matter, the belief was there I think, just wondering.
I was actually just referring to the fact that they were awful, awful people long before they met the Great Lord. :D

Edit: I was also under the impression that the Mordeth evil was an ancient evil, but an evil that was born out of a way of destroying Shai'tan, in which case it never would have existed without a Dark One there to begin with.
If the Dark One hadn't existed to be a focal point for Aridhol's suspicion and hate, something else certainly would have been.

bluejam
12-04-2009, 05:12 PM
Why then did the Creator seal the DO away from the Pattern? The DO is throwing the balance off, and since the Creator can't counterbalance the DO, things are messed up.

This vaunted "balance" doesn't include the Creator and the DO, only humans. Otherwise the DO would never have been completely sealed away. Unless you're suggesting again that the Creator deliberately made the prison breachable by humans.

Okay, I had more time to try and understand this post.

I mainly posted because a lot of people think the Creator, ta'veren, the Pattern, Wheel, etc are entities of Good, when they aren't.

Humans associate the Creator to Light to Good, and Shai'tan to Shadow to Evil, I don't want to label them as anything, but if I had to I think Creation vs Destruction is better to describe them.

Also I never said the Pattern included the Creator and Shai'tan, they're obviously outside the Pattern, I'm just going by the knowledge that the Creator made Shai'tan for there to be a counterbalance in his creation, it may be that Shai'tan is an ancient evil like Mordeth turned True Power and imprisoned by humans in some T'A'R-like world in a previous age, we don't know but I'm going by the assumed knowledge of the humans in the book, which RJ has said many times don't believe everything people believe in.

Belazamon
12-04-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm just going by the knowledge that the Creator made Shai'tan for there to be a counterbalance in his creation
Actually that's not known at all.

The Creation/Destruction dichotomy, on the other hand, is something to which I've always subscribed.

DahLliA
12-04-2009, 08:31 PM
It's an interesting question as to why the Creator did not destroy the Dark One

easy one

Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Wunderwaffe
12-06-2009, 02:29 AM
Is it safe to assume that all previous iterations of the Dragon Soul at some point before the end fully integrated all memories of their past selves? Or was Rand's integration with all of his previous iterations a unique act to this Age?

Weird Harold
12-06-2009, 02:51 AM
Is it safe to assume that all previous iterations of the Dragon Soul at some point before the end fully integrated all memories of their past selves? Or was Rand's integration with all of his previous iterations a unique act to this Age?
Strictly guesswork, but I think the Dragon Soul does integrate with -- or at least become aware of -- his past lives at the end of every Third Age in his final incarnation of the Second and Third Ages (eg as the Dragon Reborn) but otherwise is only integrated with all of his past lives while awaiting reincarnation in T'A'R.

The Dragon Soul is spun out once as the Dragon to supervise the end of the Second Age (and partially re-imprison the DO) and then spun out a second time as the Dragon Reborn to supervise the end of the Third Age and repair the DO's prison so that it can become completely forgotten again by the end of the next First Age. Only the second archetype needs to be aware that he is "a specific Soul reborn according to Prophecy," in Greandal's words.

According to RJ, the Dragon Soul is spun out in "non-dragon" incarnations, and remembering past lives as the Dragon or Dragon Reborn would probably be counter-productive to those incarnations.

Yellowbeard
12-07-2009, 12:30 PM
just had this thought. at work so don't have books and can't look up things to check at the moment.

don't a few of the 4th age writings that appear as quotes at the beginning/ending of the novels reference the DO's prison,etc.?

and i thought strike at shayol ghul was written like it was a report written by a 4th age author, and it references that a "thinness" in the pattern can be detected to show where the DO's prison is?

wouldn't that suggest that the DO survives TG and his prison is restored to a pre-bore condition?

i've been intrigued by LTT's statements that something had to touch the DO when they sealed he sealed the bore. i'm wondering why? why does something have to touch the DO? obviously, when rand gets his redo attempt at the sealing, he can't use saidin or saidar. the obvious answer is fain, but it also seems to me that maybe RJ isn't that predictable.

Wunderwaffe
12-07-2009, 12:43 PM
Hey Harold, the second and third age Dragons always serve the same function? The second age Dragon partially but imperfectly seals the Bore. The third age Dragon, having a "second chance," correctly seals the bore.

The roles can't be reversed? It seems odd that the second age Dragon can never do the job as effectively as the third age Dragon. Why does the second age Dragon always screw up? LTT, in his arrogance, thought men could seal the DO away as well as the Creator did. Three thousand some years later the world is still reeling from the effects of his baseless assumption.

Weird Harold
12-07-2009, 01:36 PM
and i thought strike at shayol ghul was written like it was a report written by a 4th age author, and it references that a "thinness" in the pattern can be detected to show where the DO's prison is?

"The Strike At Shayol Ghul" was written during the Breaking -- Late Second Age,Early Third Age, or an indeterminate Interstitial period -- not in the Fourth Age.

Hey Harold, the second and third age Dragons always serve the same function?

I see a full Turning as most like the Playbill at a Shakespearian fetival -- Every night, the same seven plays are performed live, onstage, in the same order. Each day's performance is slightly different because of audience reactions and flubbed lines, but Romeo and Juliet always end up dead, Lady MacBeth never gets the blood washed off her hands, and Julius Ceasar still gets a knife or twelve in his back.

The Dragon is the lead in one play and the Dragon Reborn is the lead in the next. Julius Ceaser doesn't get to kill himself over Juliet and Lady MacBeth doesn't get to poison herself over unrequited love even if the same actors play Juliet-Lady Macbeth and Romeo-Ceaser; Each play has a script that must be followed.

Bonzi77
12-07-2009, 01:40 PM
I see a full Turning as most like the Playbill at a Shakespearian fetival -- Every night, the same seven plays are performed live, onstage, in the same order. Each day's performance is slightly different because of audience reactions and flubbed lines, but Romeo and Juliet always end up dead, Lady MacBeth never gets the blood washed off her hands, and Julius Ceasar still gets a knife or twelve in his back.


SPOILER ALERT

Weird Harold
12-07-2009, 01:57 PM
SPOILER ALERT
Pfffft! :p

Shakespear has been released just a tiny bit longer than the six-months to a year Theoryland worries about spoilers. :D

Crispin's Crispian
12-07-2009, 02:19 PM
Pfffft! :p

Shakespear has been released just a tiny bit longer than the six-months to a year Theoryland worries about spoilers. :D

Wait, Julius Caesar was killed?!

wolframbohr2
12-07-2009, 03:08 PM
Boy, way to go and spoil the plot of the book I was reading after tGS. Next your gonna tell me that Holmes survived Reichenbach Falls.

Terez
12-07-2009, 03:40 PM
Who?

Blue Bob
12-07-2009, 04:28 PM
I thnk he means Robert Downey Jr.

Belazamon
12-07-2009, 07:15 PM
I thnk he means Robert Downey Jr.
Elementary.

Wunderwaffe
12-08-2009, 11:56 AM
Elementary.

, my dear Blue Bob.

Belazamon
12-08-2009, 01:22 PM
, my dear Blue Bob.
thatsthejoke.jpg