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thisiscooling
11-30-2009, 01:08 AM
xposted on tv.net



I think Moiraine will come back stilled.
My reasoning comes from rereading New Spring all day today, and Moiraine saying one of the Blue Ajah laws was not to marry
but, that she has said she knows the face of the man she will marry.
therefore she will not be aes sedai/blue ajah anymore, therefore she must be stilled?

right?


sorry for my late night ramblings.:confused::confused:

bluejam
11-30-2009, 01:19 AM
Siuan & Bryne?

Davian93
11-30-2009, 06:57 AM
Siuan & Bryne?

They're not married...yet. Perhaps Siuan will "retire" and then marry him to avoid breaking that law.

wolframbohr2
11-30-2009, 07:08 AM
Laws can be changed.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2009, 07:14 AM
By now, Moiraine has the status to simply ignore 'guidelines' like that.

Davian93
11-30-2009, 07:42 AM
By now, Moiraine has the status to simply ignore 'guidelines' like that.

I doubt the Blues would push the issue too greatly on either. Siuan has already been punished enough in their eyes (wrongly pulled down and stilled). Moiraine is their hero...she killed 2 Forsaken as far as they know as well as protected the Savior of the world from death on several other occasions. If Moiraine is married, its not as if they're gonna ask for a marriage certificate or do a huge investigation.

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 08:54 AM
I think it's more likely she comes back more powerful as part of some partial power swap that happened with Lanfear when they went through the gate.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 09:22 AM
I think it's more likely she comes back more powerful as part of some partial power swap that happened with Lanfear when they went through the gate.

I am starting to buy into that more and more.

Moiraine also said that she thought a quiet life would kill Thom, I always took this to mean he was going to become her Warder when all was said and done.

thisiscooling
11-30-2009, 11:23 AM
i just think moiraine knew one day she wouldnt be aes sedai...

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-30-2009, 11:30 AM
Moiraine saying one of the Blue Ajah laws was not to marry
but, that she has said she knows the face of the man she will marry.
therefore she will not be aes sedai/blue ajah anymore, therefore she must be stilled?


It is a "custom" in the Blue, not a law, to "refrain from marriage".

I agree, Moraine's character growth since then clearly shows her disregard for custom and expectations. Siuan's kinky-yet-puritan side will force her to marry. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2009, 11:40 AM
Siuan's kinky-yet-puritan side will force her to marry. ;)Perhaps Sea Folk rules would suit her? :D

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 12:20 PM
I wonder if Moiraine and Siuan did a little bit of college experimentation while both wearing the white. The Accepted dress had a rainbow hem, after all.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 12:33 PM
I wonder if Moiraine and Siuan did a little bit of college experimentation while both wearing the white. The Accepted dress had a rainbow hem, after all.

Oh god, not another "pillow friends" mention, it felt like evry scond page of KoD was full of it!!!

Quick question, are there any major openly gay characters in WoT? Can't think off the top of my head...

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't remember names but there was an Aes Sedai that was part of Elaida's tower faction (I think a Red) that was lover with some Seafolk Windfinder, something along those lines.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Oh god, not another "pillow friends" mention, it felt like evry scond page of KoD was full of it!!!

Quick question, are there any major openly gay characters in WoT? Can't think off the top of my head...

Ailil Riatin and Shalon:

TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
"Not that," the stout little woman sighed. Despite a square face, tilting her head to one side made her look like a very plump sparrow. "I know it was not my business, Cadsuane, but Bera and Kiruna were getting nowhere with our guests, so I had a little talk alone with Shalon. After a little gentle questioning, she spilled out the whole story, and Ailil confirmed everything once she realized I already knew. Soon after the Sea Folk first arrived here, Ailil approached Shalon hoping to learn what they wanted with young al'Thor. For her part, Shalon wanted to learn whatever she could about him, and about the situation here. That led to meetings, which led to friendship, which led to them becoming pillow friends. As much from loneliness as anything else, I suspect. In any case, that was what they were hiding more than their mutual snooping."

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Hey guys, just a quick question linked to this topic-
Is the general consensus that Moiraine is dead or what? I know she'll come back but she did die didn't she?

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Hey guys, just a quick question linked to this topic-
Is the general consensus that Moiraine is dead or what? I know she'll come back but she did die didn't she?

I think the consensus is that she's alive and trapped in Finnland. The only person we've seen who can bring back the dead is the Dark One, and I don't think he'd be so inclined as to transmigrate one of his most ardent and effect opponents.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Hey guys, just a quick question linked to this topic-
Is the general consensus that Moiraine is dead or what? I know she'll come back but she did die didn't she?

Don't let the non-believers fool you, Moiraine lives. Though, I do not think there are many non-believers out there.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 12:56 PM
I've still never really seen any great explanations though as to why Moiraine would live through the experience while Lanfear would die.

It can't be explained by something as simple as Lanfear making a mistake with the Finns. Ostensible she should know a heck of a lot more about dealing with them than the people of the day, Moiraine included.

I know that questions that touch the Shadow would be met with dire consequences in the Snake doorway, but are we to just take it that this means immediate death to Darkfriends as soon as they step through?

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 01:01 PM
I've still never really seen any great explanations though as to why Moiraine would live through the experience while Lanfear would die.

Explainations, well, I always just assumed Lanfear is a hissy fit made some bad moves with then Finns. Not exactly out of the question for her. Pretty sure she would want to be back out in the world quickly.

As for her surviving, well, there is plenty of foreshadowing, visions and such. There is also of course the letter she wrote before hand to Thom where she says that people will think her dead but that she is not.

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 01:06 PM
I've still never really seen any great explanations though as to why Moiraine would live through the experience while Lanfear would die.

It can't be explained by something as simple as Lanfear making a mistake with the Finns. Ostensible she should know a heck of a lot more about dealing with them than the people of the day, Moiraine included.

I know that questions that touch the Shadow would be met with dire consequences in the Snake doorway, but are we to just take it that this means immediate death to Darkfriends as soon as they step through?

We don't know when/where/how Lanfear died. That's one of the reasons she still pops up in the Asmodean debates. There's a lot of questions to be answered and not a lot of evidence to answer them yet.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 01:07 PM
I've still never really seen any great explanations though as to why Moiraine would live through the experience while Lanfear would die.

I always read it as she had died. It explains how hard Lan took the loss. It can't just be that she had entered finnland as she had already done that at least once before
and he would have known what that was like...

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Explainations, well, I always just assumed Lanfear is a hissy fit made some bad moves with then Finns. Not exactly out of the question for her. Pretty sure she would want to be back out in the world quickly.

As for her surviving, well, there is plenty of foreshadowing, visions and such. There is also of course the letter she wrote before hand to Thom where she says that people will think her dead but that she is not.

Like I said though, people from Lanfear's age knew all about the Snakes and Foxes and what you could and couldn't do in their realm. Lanfear wouldn't be dumb enough to just start trying to do something she knows will get her killed (unless she wanted to be killed, so that the Dark One could resurrect her and free her from the lands of the Finn).

And Moiraine didn't survive just because she knew she'd survive. I want to know literally why Moiraine would survive and Lanfear die.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 01:30 PM
I always read it as she had died. It explains how hard Lan took the loss. It can't just be that she had entered finnland as she had already done that at least once before
and he would have known what that was like...

That's a good point, but it also might be different simply because the doorway, which was a connection between the two worlds, had been destroyed and therefore the connection severed. With no doorway still connecting her to this world, her bond with Lan would have been passed on.

It could also be something to do with how she rigged up the bond so that it would pass from Moiraine to Myrelle when she died. Lan may have assumed she was dead because the bond had been passed, but it may not be the case.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 01:46 PM
It could also be something to do with how she rigged up the bond so that it would pass from Moiraine to Myrelle when she died. Lan may have assumed she was dead because the bond had been passed, but it may not be the case.

Does she not specifically say the bond will pass when she is gone? I don't think she could lie about that...some sort of oath or something :D

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 01:52 PM
Aes Sedai can pass their bonds willingly without dying. That's why Nynaeve doesn't have to hope Myrelle dies before she can get Lan's bond. Since Moiraine had a fair amount of foresight of what was going to happen and what had to happen, she could have somehow arranged for the bond to pass short of her death. Or it could be that the connection was severed when the gateway was destroyed, like parrothead said. We really don't have much to go on here.

Terez
11-30-2009, 01:52 PM
I've still never really seen any great explanations though as to why Moiraine would live through the experience while Lanfear would die.
I figured it was simple enough. Moiraine killed her. She 'clawed the bracelet (angreal) away' as she pushed her through the doorway. Why, if not to gain the advantage in strength?

Davian93
11-30-2009, 01:53 PM
I figured it was simple enough. Moiraine killed her. She 'clawed the bracelet (angreal) away' as she pushed her through the doorway. Why, if not to gain the advantage in strength?

Makes sense.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Aes Sedai can pass their bonds willingly without dying. That's why Nynaeve doesn't have to hope Myrelle dies before she can get Lan's bond. Since Moiraine had a fair amount of foresight of what was going to happen and what had to happen, she could have somehow arranged for the bond to pass short of her death. Or it could be that the connection was severed when the gateway was destroyed, like parrothead said. We really don't have much to go on here.

I know they can pass the bond but we are not given information that this is what she did. This is a leap of faith that she would have planned it in this way.

It may be a good assumption but it is still that- an assumption.

When I said that she specifically said she had made arrangements in the event of her death i meant that she CANNOT lie about this. This is not an assumption.

Then again, I could be mis-remembering this. Ha, I hope Ozymandius reads this-I'm just as bad as severin!!

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Makes sense.

Agreed. Quick question- would the bracelet make moiraine strong enough- we know Lanfear is about as strong in the power as women get...

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Like I said though, people from Lanfear's age knew all about the Snakes and Foxes and what you could and couldn't do in their realm. Lanfear wouldn't be dumb enough to just start trying to do something she knows will get her killed (unless she wanted to be killed, so that the Dark One could resurrect her and free her from the lands of the Finn).

And Moiraine didn't survive just because she knew she'd survive. I want to know literally why Moiraine would survive and Lanfear die.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to insinuate that was how Moiraine survived. As to how she did, I have no clue.

However, I do think Lanfear would be dumb enough to do something stupid. She did something stupid prior to getting thrown in after all. Exposed herself in a state of fury with only revenge on her mind and got tripped up by someone she thought was beneath her.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 02:11 PM
I know they can pass the bond but we are not given information that this is what she did. This is a leap of faith that she would have planned it in this way.

...

When I said that she specifically said she had made arrangements in the event of her death i meant that she CANNOT lie about this. This is not an assumption.

The bond was already set in place to be passed, I think the only thing left for Moiraine to do was release her bond to Lan.

When she made that statement it was not a lie. She did not have the fore-knowledge of her encounter with Lanfear at that point.

Davian93
11-30-2009, 02:13 PM
Agreed. Quick question- would the bracelet make moiraine strong enough- we know Lanfear is about as strong in the power as women get...

Depends on how good an angreal it was. Of course, Moiraine should have also still had her own angreal on her so maybe she used both? (like Rand did battling Asmo).

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 02:34 PM
I figured it was simple enough. Moiraine killed her. She 'clawed the bracelet (angreal) away' as she pushed her through the doorway. Why, if not to gain the advantage in strength?

Because even with the bracelet I doubt Moiraine would be strong enough to best Lanfear. Lanfear was supposed to be one of the strongest women channelers the world had ever known. In fact there's something somewhere about there having been speculation that she was as strong as a women was theoretically able to be.

Terez
11-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Depends on how good an angreal it was. Of course, Moiraine should have also still had her own angreal on her so maybe she used both? (like Rand did battling Asmo).
Also, Moiraine is not all that far from the top.

1. Lanfear, Sharina
2. Talaan? Alivia? Other female Forsaken?
3. Nynaeve?
4. Nynaeve, at the lowest.
5. Egwene/Aviendha/Elayne
6. Cadsuane/Nicola
7. Moiraine/Siuan/Elaida/Romanda/Lelaine

6 or 7 levels. One good angreal should do it, but two definitely would. And we know Lanfear's angreal was a good one:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean. Lanfear standing on the wagon-bed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angrealas she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter. Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.
So, obviously the angreal was important. Why would she leave it laying out for Lanfear otherwise?

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 02:41 PM
If the debate about whether or not Moiraine died were as simple as her not being able to lie and her having told Lan that his bond will pass when she died, ber bond passed and therefore she died...there WOULD be no debate.

I don't think it's even close to that simple.

The easiest thing is probably the truest. She's alive, held captive by the Finn, and she's about to be rescued.

It's a lot easier for some bumbling fools to find a way to cheat the rules on the Finns and save someone from their clutches than for some mortals to find a way to bring someone back to life. The story has been building for a Moiraine saving for quite some time. RJ and BS wouldn't have laid all that groundwork in the novels to just say "Ha ha! Fooled you!"

If they're going to do that they might as well have the final scene of the book being the Dark One breaking free, unhinging the Wheel, and the end of time and existence and the whole shebang.

Which has about a 0% chance of happening.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 02:45 PM
So, obviously the angreal was important. Why would she leave it laying out for Lanfear otherwise?

I forgot about her digging that out before hand.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 02:46 PM
I took it that the angreal was important because without conveniently finding it there, Lanfear never would have been bold enough to attack Rand out in the open in some attempt at an all-out drubbing.

She might have been one of the strongest female channelers imaginable, but she still in all likelihood could not quite take the Dragon in an even fight (I believe we're led to believe it would be close, but that she couldn't do it).

With that angreal laying on the ground, her finding it, she would be suddenly emboldened to try and teach her darling a little lesson...knowing that she had no chance of losing. Or so she thought.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 02:49 PM
If they're going to do that they might as well have the final scene of the book being the Dark One breaking free, unhinging the Wheel, and the end of time and existence and the whole shebang.


I think, i think...Yes, I just came:D

ck, i agree that it is the simplest answer and they are almost the best but it's evidence we're discussing. I'm just trying to put forward some for the Moiraine is dead side...

Terez
11-30-2009, 02:54 PM
I took it that the angreal was important because without conveniently finding it there, Lanfear never would have been bold enough to attack Rand out in the open in some attempt at an all-out drubbing.
I rather got the impression that Lanfear attacked in anger (she had just found out from Kadere about Aviendha, and she was in a terrible rage - her anger was announced by exploding wagons and Kadere's whole skin floating in the breeze), and just took whatever advantages were lying around.

She might have been one of the strongest female channelers imaginable, but she still in all likelihood could not quite take the Dragon in an even fight (I believe we're led to believe it would be close, but that she couldn't do it).
Well, she had reason to believe that Rand would not fight back.

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 03:02 PM
She might have been one of the strongest female channelers imaginable, but she still in all likelihood could not quite take the Dragon in an even fight (I believe we're led to believe it would be close, but that she couldn't do it).



That's true at the peak of his powers, obviously, but he wasn't fully trained or developed when the showdown took place. Even any strength advantage he had would be offset by her experience and skill.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 03:06 PM
I rather got the impression that Lanfear attacked in anger (she had just found out from Kadere about Aviendha, and she was in a terrible rage - her anger was announced by exploding wagons and Kadere's whole skin floating in the breeze), and just took whatever advantages were lying around.


Well, she had reason to believe that Rand would not fight back.

At the last defense of his life? It's not like Rand had never killed a woman that was trying to kill him before.

She could not know any such thing.

Why do people have this image of Lanfear as some psychotic woman completely out of control of her emotions and blundering around into wasps nests out of anger and ignorance?

Angry though she might be, she was never stupid. She didn't rise to be one of the most powerful and feared Chosen by bumbling around eveywhere ruled by her emotions and her high opinion of herself. Her character has always been described as very calculating and ambitious. There's even some question as to how much loyalty she has toward the Dark One himself considering her conversation with Rand about the Choedan Kal.

She might have made a miscalculation attacking Rand in the open and not thinking that a mere physical tackle backwards could do her in (brute physicality is something another calculating Forsaken, Moghedien, clearly underestimated as well). But I very much doubt angry or not that she would be dumb enough to go toe to toe with zero advantage against someone you knew to be stronger. She didn't get to the top by being that excitable.

The angreal was there to induce her to pick a fight.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 03:10 PM
That's true at the peak of his powers, obviously, but he wasn't fully trained or developed when the showdown took place. Even any strength advantage he had would be offset by her experience and skill.

Yeah that certainly did Aginor, Asmodean, Rahvin and Ishamael a whole lot of good.

She knew damn well that Chosen had gone toe to toe with the man and lost. Aginor was already dead. He beat Asmodean which led to her binding him for Rand. He had already basically outdueled Ishamael three separate times and he was about to kill Rahvin though I guess she couldn't have known that (but the fact that he succeeded shows he was capable, untrained or not).

Bonzi77
11-30-2009, 03:13 PM
Yeah that certainly did Aginor, Asmodean, Rahvin and Ishamael a whole lot of good.

She knew damn well that Chosen had gone toe to toe with the man and lost. Aginor was already dead. He beat Asmodean which led to her binding him for Rand. He had already basically outdueled Ishamael three separate times and he was about to kill Rahvin though I guess she couldn't have known that (but the fact that he succeeded shows he was capable).

Good point. I'm wrong.

Kimon
11-30-2009, 04:02 PM
xposted on tv.net



I think Moiraine will come back stilled.
My reasoning comes from rereading New Spring all day today, and Moiraine saying one of the Blue Ajah laws was not to marry
but, that she has said she knows the face of the man she will marry.
therefore she will not be aes sedai/blue ajah anymore, therefore she must be stilled?

right?


sorry for my late night ramblings.:confused::confused:

I'm not sure that it even really matters whether or not she was stilled, except perhaps for hoping that it's Flinn (or another Asha'man)rather than Nynaeve (or some other Aes Sedai) that heals her. As to the problem with marrying, it seems that their (the ajah's) main concern was the logical problem of the pain that the married sister would feel upon losing her husband due to the fact that she would long outlive him. It begs the question however, wouldn't it make sense to test Thom for the ability to channel given what we know about his nephew. If he can channel, that would make the marriage concern largely moot.

Marie Curie 7
11-30-2009, 04:34 PM
Oh god, not another "pillow friends" mention, it felt like evry scond page of KoD was full of it!!!

So, is there something wrong with the mention of pillow friends in WoT?

I don't remember names but there was an Aes Sedai that was part of Elaida's tower faction (I think a Red) that was lover with some Seafolk Windfinder, something along those lines.

There are more than just Ailil and Shalon. Most are not major characters, though. Named ones include:

Galina
Elaida
Meidani
Arrela
Seonid

And FYI, RJ said this about gay and lesbian characters in WoT:

RJ's blog 6 October 2005 "AND ONE MORE TIME"

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven't been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 05:23 PM
So, is there something wrong with the mention of pillow friends in WoT?


Not a thing. In fact it's perfectly rational. However, I think they are first mentioned in passing in one of the earlier book. The number of mentions felt so much greater in CoT and KoD was what I was trying to convey with my comment.

And FYI, RJ said this about gay and lesbian characters in WoT:I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven't been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.


Again, I don't have a problem with the concept in the books, just that it felt tacked on, like an overly laboured afterthoight if that isn't an oxy-moron. Sorry if i caused offence, none was intended...:confused:

Davian93
11-30-2009, 05:26 PM
RJ realized one important fact:

Lesbians=Ratings!

Or in this case, increased book sales.

Ieyasu
11-30-2009, 05:36 PM
I have always thought she was stilled. As seen from Siuan when she was stilled, it killed the bond. She didnt feel the effects of the death of her warder until she was healed.

There was a thread in the past (yuku board i believe) where I discussed the various reasons why i believe she was stilled and how that broke the bond. Also some of the sisters that Rand stilled at the wells had warders going nuts in the same fashion.

I also wondered if she got healed if some vestige of her bond with Lan would return, like Siuan's did, but since it passed to another, I highly doubt it.

If it was a matter of just passing the bond, then Lan wouldnt have felt the disconnection and the 'death inside' that warders feel when their AS die.

I think she was stilled inside there and the stilling broke the bond, thus passing it along as she told Lan it would.

Daekyras
11-30-2009, 05:45 PM
If it was a matter of just passing the bond, then Lan wouldnt have felt the disconnection and the 'death inside' that warders feel when their AS die.

I think she was stilled inside there and the stilling broke the bond, thus passing it along as she told Lan it would.

This makes very good sense to me...

kasper11
11-30-2009, 06:19 PM
A couple of things...

1) I doubt Moiraine killed Lanfear. Moiraine has a trick up her sleeve for killing foresaken, balefire. If she was going to kill Lanfear with the one power, that is how she probably would have done it.

2) A simple explination for why Moiraine is alive....she saw through the rings in Rhuidion what she needed to do to stay alive. That was a big advantage she had over Lanfear.

3) I posted somewhere else awhile ago that I thougt the ivory bracelet angreal could be the overlooked object. Maybe the reason Moiraine clawed it away from Lanfear wasn't to best her with the power (I still doubt she could have won given the knowledge difference), but maybe it gave her something to bargain with for her life. Lanfear went through with nothing and died. Moiraine is still alive.

Crispin's Crispian
11-30-2009, 06:29 PM
3) I posted somewhere else awhile ago that I thougt the ivory bracelet angreal could be the overlooked object. Maybe the reason Moiraine clawed it away from Lanfear wasn't to best her with the power (I still doubt she could have won given the knowledge difference), but maybe it gave her something to bargain with for her life. Lanfear went through with nothing and died. Moiraine is still alive.

Interesting thought.

Another simple take is that Lanfear died because she had the angreal ripped away in the midst of channeling a whole bunch of Power. We've heard time and again that channeling too much can kill you. Imagine channeling a ton, then having the angreal ripped away as you are thrown into another dimension. I imagine saidar would be doing some weird stuff to you at that point.

ckparrothead
11-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Interesting thought.

Another simple take is that Lanfear died because she had the angreal ripped away in the midst of channeling a whole bunch of Power. We've heard time and again that channeling too much can kill you. Imagine channeling a ton, then having the angreal ripped away as you are thrown into another dimension. I imagine saidar would be doing some weird stuff to you at that point.

Now THAT is a very interesting thought.

Weird Harold
11-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Why do people have this image of Lanfear as some psychotic woman completely out of control of her emotions and blundering around into wasps nests out of anger and ignorance?

Because Lanfear was written as a sterotypical "Psycho Cheerleader" Archetype? She turned to the DO to get LTT "back" after he dumped her, Married Ilyena, and her every Psycho Cheerleader trick failed to bring him back to her.

BWB
From various bits of evidence it seems that Mierin was not among the first to go over to the Shadow, but when she did pledge her soul to the Dark One, it was for the most basic of reasons: love and hate.

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself. Mierin was never willing to accept that break and continued a determined pursuit of him. When Lews Therin, after rejecting Mierin, married Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar, about fifty years before the beginning of the War of the Shadow, Mierin reached her flash point. She attempted to disrupt the wedding ceremony and over the following year made several blatant public approaches to Lews Therin, blaming Ilyena for her “loss” of him. Shortly after this she embraced the Shadow. She never gave up on claiming Lews Therin eventually; he was the object of a number of plots by the Forsaken, mainly to capture or turn him in some way, and she was in the forefront of almost all of these.

4Alethinos
11-30-2009, 08:55 PM
Lanfear did not die immediately after entering the Red Gateway. She admitted that she was imprisoned for a period of time before she died and was transmigrated to become Cyndane.

Clearly, Moiraine did not die, either. She could have been stilled, but holding that angreal made her stronger in the Power than she was prior to entering the Red Gateway by virtue of tackling Lanfear and taking the two of them into the dimension of the Eelfinn.

It has been foreshadowed so much that it seems clear to me that she is in some way at the Tower of Ghenjei which is an intersection of the various Finn dimensions. I am convinced that she never died. Min has stated rather categorically that without Moiraine, Rand cannot win. Therefore, she is alive either stilled or not. Tha stilling can be healed by Finn and no lasting loss of her abilities in the OP.

Moiraine's letter to Thom makes it clear as crystal that Moiraine knew that she would not die.

I think that Lanfear was the one who was in real trouble in the Finn dimension. I strongly suspect that she had travelled there while the AoL was still extant.

"One must read the fine print." :)

Terez
11-30-2009, 09:01 PM
Lanfear did not die immediately after entering the Red Gateway. She admitted that she was imprisoned for a period of time before she died and was transmigrated to become Cyndane.
That's not what she said at all, actually. That's your theory about what happened.

Kimon
11-30-2009, 09:12 PM
That's not what she said at all, actually. That's your theory about what happened.

"She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her!"

This is from Cyndane's POV at the Choedan Kal/Cleansing scene vis-a-vis her duel with Alivia. The question is would she call herself Cyndane in reference even to her past life as Lanfear. This,at least to me, seems more likely than that Moiraine killed her and then that she was transmigrated into Cyndane, but still held captive in Ghenjei.

Terez
11-30-2009, 09:21 PM
Yes, I know what she said. Which is not what 4A said at all.

Marie Curie 7
11-30-2009, 10:40 PM
3) I posted somewhere else awhile ago that I thougt the ivory bracelet angreal could be the overlooked object. Maybe the reason Moiraine clawed it away from Lanfear wasn't to best her with the power (I still doubt she could have won given the knowledge difference), but maybe it gave her something to bargain with for her life. Lanfear went through with nothing and died. Moiraine is still alive.

Except that Brandon said that the book 4-6 detail was mentioned for the first time in books 4-6 and then was mentioned a number of times in other books:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

Answer: It's been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

Question: But that's not the only time it's ever mentioned?

Answer: It's not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is...hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much...in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it's a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing...and you guys are very good at finding things and I'm not going to say whether you hit it or not.

The ivory bracelet doesn't fit that second criterion.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2009, 04:34 AM
It could be Rand's angreal, though. The one that disappeared mysteriously when he was captured by AS, and hasn't been seen since. There have been a few cases were Rand wishes that he still had it, thus satisfying the "has been mentioned" criterium.

thisiscooling
12-01-2009, 12:40 PM
so, random thought, maybe cyndane really is a new character, and her deal with the finns, was to be imprisoned until another aes sedai comes


basically i really want lanfear to be dead, lol. so im hoping cyndane really is a unique character, maybe one of the higher up bad chicks from the AoL

One Armed Gimp
12-01-2009, 01:02 PM
You realize of course that is just wishful thinking right? No real debate on in, Lanfear = Cyndane

Bonzi77
12-01-2009, 01:02 PM
so, random thought, maybe cyndane really is a new character, and her deal with the finns, was to be imprisoned until another aes sedai comes


basically i really want lanfear to be dead, lol. so im hoping cyndane really is a unique character, maybe one of the higher up bad chicks from the AoL

It would have to be someone else Lews Therin dumped though, wouldn't it? I thought we saw inside her head at the battle of Shadar Logoth.

Side note: Has there been a Moghedien POV about Cyndane? What if Lanfear was stilled, died and then brought back and then Moghedien (also mindtrapped) healed her (having gotten the knowledge from Nynaeve in Salidar). That would explain the reduction in power.

Terez
12-01-2009, 01:08 PM
It would have to be someone else Lews Therin dumped though, wouldn't it?
Ilyena?

I guess 'dumped' would be an understatement, though...

legends be wrought
12-01-2009, 01:52 PM
Moiraine had the clear psychological advantage, knowing exactly what was going to happen and being able to plan a strategy. Lanfear, on the other hand, was completely focused on Rand and Egwene. I would tend to think that being thrown into another realm while your attention was on something else completely would be quite disorientating. In addition, Moiraine knew where she was going whereas we dont know if Lanfear knew where the terangreal took her. She may have made a mistake that annoyed the finns, not knowing she was in the tower.

With this clear advantage, I can easily see Moiraine surviving and Lanfear being defeated by Moiranne, captured by finns, or killed on the spot by either.

Weird Harold
12-01-2009, 04:32 PM
...and then Moghedien ... healed her ...

The only problem with that theory is that Moghedien's ability with Healing is limited to the level of Healing papercuts and skinned knuckles. Nyneave was extremely frustrated with Moggy's lack of knowledge and ability re: Healing.

Kimon
12-01-2009, 06:29 PM
[QUOTE=Terez;79157]Ilyena?

QUOTE]

I've often wondered how much like Ilyena that Cyndane must look like, and whether Lews Therin would have mistaken the two if he ever ran into Cyndane, just a he does with Caraline and her reminding him of Moiraine. This would certainly seem to fit with the Dark One's sense of humor, and would be quite an amusing form of punishment, but if it was really the case I would have expected one of the other Chosen (especially Graendal) to have made some snarky comment about it to her...

nameless
12-02-2009, 01:35 AM
I wonder if Moiraine and Siuan did a little bit of college experimentation while both wearing the white. The Accepted dress had a rainbow hem, after all.

Read New Spring. There's no "if" about it.

epic
12-26-2009, 10:58 PM
There's also the possibility that Cydane=Moraine

13 BA+13 Myrdrall

kivo
12-27-2009, 12:29 AM
[QUOTE=Terez;79157]Ilyena?

QUOTE]

I've often wondered how much like Ilyena that Cyndane must look like, and whether Lews Therin would have mistaken the two if he ever ran into Cyndane, just a he does with Caraline and her reminding him of Moiraine. This would certainly seem to fit with the Dark One's sense of humor, and would be quite an amusing form of punishment, but if it was really the case I would have expected one of the other Chosen (especially Graendal) to have made some snarky comment about it to her...

I've wondered about this too. It seems kind of pointless to me to have brought Lanfear back in another body if there wasn't something special to be done with her. I actually went so far as to look up whether Cyndane had "sunhair" but her hair is silver.

Yuri33
12-27-2009, 02:27 AM
TOR Questions of the Week - 23 December 2003 to 20 April 2004 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Q: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

RJ: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

Of course, we don't know for sure that the DO transmigrated Lanfear and not the Finn's, but it seems likely that transmigration is not within the Finn's power.

Plus, if the body was truly Ilyena, several of the Forsaken would have recognized this.

Terez
12-27-2009, 03:29 AM
Not least Demandred, from whom we have had a point of view on the subject.

Bonzi77
12-27-2009, 09:35 AM
There's also the possibility that Cydane=Moraine

13 BA+13 Myrdrall

The Cyndane POV in Winters Heart disqualifies that possibility, I think. She was shocked that Alivia was more powerful than Cyndane herself used to be. Moiraine was strong in the power, but not so strong that she would have been surprised to encounter someone stronger.

Marie Curie 7
12-27-2009, 03:27 PM
Of course, we don't know for sure that the DO transmigrated Lanfear and not the Finn's, but it seems likely that transmigration is not within the Finn's power.

It's more than likely that the Finns do not have the power to carry out transmigrations. RJ was asked about it and he said that they do not.

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the Power? I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

RJ: No. No to both.