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SauceyBlueConfetti
11-30-2009, 10:51 AM
Just did my 3rd read of the book and focused a bit more on Cadsuane.

She mentions that more a'dam exist...that she has given them to others for safekeeping. I was a bit confused by the particular wording in that section though...I was not clear if she believes the Seanchan have MORE of these, of if the ones she has are all that exist.

She also mentions she tested the female a'dam on herself, with the help of trusted friends. I think it is an understatement that a pretty strong level of trust would need to exist to allow this.

My main question...who are the retired Aes Sedai she has entrusted with the additional male a'dam? Cadsuane is not the most trusting of people, so whomever has these likely will show up later. I don't think additional a'dam are a closed plot point. Since the taint has been cleansed away, the risk of sharing (increasing) insanity with the leashed male is gone. The risks of capturing a male channeler became much less.

I always was curious as to who Cadsuane was referring to in New Spring when discussing strength and age...
"Holding our silence about age doesn't keep people from knowing we live longer than they. Phaaw! From Kerene, it's a sharp drop to the next five. Five once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential. And one of those is as old as I am and in retirement to boot."

Someone in retirement is quite strong, and quite old, and I am guessing here...but also someone that Cadsuane trusts. In New Spring, 2 of the searches sent by the Amyrlin (later both killed by BA) are Karene and Meilyn, both of whom Cadsuane considers top 3 with her in strength at the time. It makes sense that the strongest were sent on the most important of missions, finding the Dragon Reborn. With Verin's disclosures, and her "test" of Cadsuane in earlier books, I believe now Cadsuane is clearly not Black Ajah. Karene and Meilyn were not either, as they were killed by BA. Did the Amyrlin know at the time who was and was not BA? Or was it happenstance that the 3 strongest living Aes Sedai were not Black?

Davian93
11-30-2009, 10:55 AM
My main question...who are the retired Aes Sedai she has entrusted with the additional male a'dam? Cadsuane is not the most trusting of people, so whomever has these likely will show up later. I don't think additional a'dam are a closed plot point. Since the taint has been cleansed away, the risk of sharing (increasing) insanity with the leashed male is gone. The risks of capturing a male channeler became much less.

A reread of New Spring is in order as they could be mentioned there. I havent read NS in a long time so I don't recall all the older sisters mentioned. I expect a lot of fleshing out of Caddy's party in the next book.


Did the Amyrlin know at the time who was and was not BA? Or was it happenstance that the 3 strongest living Aes Sedai were not Black?

Clearly not as this is what got her tortured and killed by them...she told the wrong person about the search.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 11:06 AM
I always was curious as to who Cadsuane was referring to in New Spring when discussing strength and age...

Romanda Cassin per note 4 on eWoT. (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/new_spring/ch17.html)

Notice the other name listed with Moiraine, Suian and Elaida as the next strongest 5.

Davian93
11-30-2009, 11:09 AM
Romanda Cassin per note 4 on eWoT. (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/new_spring/ch17.html)

Notice the other name listed with Moiraine, Suian and Elaida as the next strongest 5.

Good find. Thanks.

SauceyBlueConfetti
11-30-2009, 11:14 AM
Thanks Gimp, nice dig up.


Again, from what we know now it is interesting to note that the top 8 (6, once you remove the two killed) were NOT Black Ajah.

Davian93
11-30-2009, 11:19 AM
Thanks Gimp, nice dig up.


Again, from what we know now it is interesting to note that the top 8 (6, once you remove the two killed) were NOT Black Ajah.

You could postulate that a big part of why people join the BA is for more power and most really strong channelers don't have that inferiority complex as much. There is evidence against this, however, as even top channelers in the AoL joined the Shadow.

Terez
11-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Romanda Cassin per note 4 on eWoT. (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/new_spring/ch17.html)

Notice the other name listed with Moiraine, Suian and Elaida as the next strongest 5.
lol, some of us don't depend on the Encyclopaedia to know stuff like this! Which is a good thing, since they're not really clear sometimes about what we know and what we merely suspect.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 02:49 PM
Well, I guess I could have just said it, but I doubt anyone would just take me at my word. I generally try and back up what I say be it a quote from the books, your db, or eWtoT.

Trutino
11-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Well, I guess I could have just said it, but I doubt anyone would just take me at my word. I generally try and back up what I say be it a quote from the books, your db, or eWtoT.

Agreed. All we can do is our best! :)

Terez
11-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Well, I guess I could have just said it, but I doubt anyone would just take me at my word. I generally try and back up what I say be it a quote from the books, your db, or eWtoT.
I don't generally take the Encyclopaedia at its word. I might have done it like this:

TITLE - New Spring
CHAPTER: 14 - Changes

Lelaine, who stood as high as Elaida and was a Sitter to boot, had them to tea several times, to ease the strain of the first weeks as she put it. Siuan got on very well with her, though she made Moiraine a little nervous with that penetrating gaze. It always seemed that Lelaine knew more of you than she revealed, that you had no secrets with her. But then, Siuan appeared unable to understand Moiraine's liking for Anaiya. It was not the Healing. Anaiya was warm and open, and made you feel that all would come out well in the end. Almost any conversation with Anaiya turned out comforting. Moiraine thought that in time she might become as close a friend as Leane, if not so close as Siuan.
And then one of the quotes from later than shows she and Romanda are the same strength, and that Romanda had come out of retirement to join the rebels.

One Armed Gimp
11-30-2009, 03:16 PM
Good call. But...

I'm not that thorough
I'm somewhat lazy
I doubt my word for word knowledge of quotes from the books and other sources compares to yours

Kimon
11-30-2009, 04:11 PM
You could postulate that a big part of why people join the BA is for more power and most really strong channelers don't have that inferiority complex as much. There is evidence against this, however, as even top channelers in the AoL joined the Shadow.

Yet this inferiority complex does account for the turning of a few of the Chosen- Demandred, Sammael, Be'lal, Mesaana. The first three due to their jealousy of Lews Therin, the last due to her inability to rise on her own merits.

Marie Curie 7
11-30-2009, 04:31 PM
My main question...who are the retired Aes Sedai she has entrusted with the additional male a'dam? Cadsuane is not the most trusting of people, so whomever has these likely will show up later. I don't think additional a'dam are a closed plot point. Since the taint has been cleansed away, the risk of sharing (increasing) insanity with the leashed male is gone. The risks of capturing a male channeler became much less.

I mentioned this the other day in another thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78493#poststop). Cadsuane began gathering sisters that she trusted around the time of the happenings at the Eye of the World. She gathered not only the sisters that we've seen with her (Merise, Corele, etc.) but also others:

TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

"Of course, Corele." It seemed some of Damer's insistence was rubbing off on her. Cadsuane was willing to let that go, so long as it did not go too far. She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar - eyes and ears had kept watch on Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred for years without learning anything useful until then - yet just because she trusted them did not mean she intended to let them start going their own way. Too much lay at stake. But in any case, she could not leave a sister like that, either.

Some of the other ones that she has gathered were probably hanging around The Silver Swan in Caemlyn, for a time at least.

As far as the retired sisters that she mentioned giving the other Domination Bands to, there's no real indication of who they are. Sure, some could have been mentioned in New Spring, but there are no real hints as far as I know. A couple of the sisters mentioned in New Spring that haven't been heard of since then include Eadyth and Anlee of the Blue Ajah, both Sitters with white or graying hair at the time. Eadyth was also First Selector and was noted as the 'most capable Blue in a hundred years'. If she is retired and not dead, it's possible that she's one of the ones Cadsuane was referring to. Aeldra, who was Keeper under Tamra, also hasn't been mentioned since New Spring; neither has Cetalia, the head of the Blue eyes and ears. There are others, too. So who knows?

Trutino
11-30-2009, 11:22 PM
Yet this inferiority complex does account for the turning of a few of the Chosen- Demandred, Sammael, Be'lal, Mesaana. The first three due to their jealousy of Lews Therin, the last due to her inability to rise on her own merits.

A fair number of the other ones, Semirhage, Graendal, Aginor, Balthamel were just plain twisted. I might also add Rahvin (power hungry), and Mierin/Lanfear (power hungry, wanted that third name) to the list of inferiority complex Forsaken. I'm not sure exactly why Moghedian joined up and I always thought Asmodean's "immortality and music" excuse was stupid.

In the end, we're right back to the idea that Elan/Moridin is different from the rest.

nameless
12-01-2009, 01:09 AM
Asmodean's prattle about "ages of endless music" was just what he told people (and himself, probably) to cover up his real motives. He was a shameless coward and the thought of dying terrified him, so he jumped on the first chance for immortality he could find and never mind the price.

Spasmodean
12-01-2009, 03:39 AM
Asmodean's prattle about "ages of endless music" was just what he told people (and himself, probably) to cover up his real motives. He was a shameless coward and the thought of dying terrified him, so he jumped on the first chance for immortality he could find and never mind the price.

We never really got a good description of what Asmo's activities were in the AOL beyond severing his mother. For all we know he could have been bad-ass!

Ieyasu
12-01-2009, 12:05 PM
We never really got a good description of what Asmo's activities were in the AOL beyond severing his mother. For all we know he could have been bad-ass!

We did in the BWB, as I recall he was never a field commander, but he did take part in some important battles. He mostly excelled in administration and governing shadow controlled lands.

He also committed many atrocities against the various artists, mutilating them so they couldn't perform their art but were left alive.

Bonzi77
12-01-2009, 12:29 PM
Asmodean's prattle about "ages of endless music" was just what he told people (and himself, probably) to cover up his real motives. He was a shameless coward and the thought of dying terrified him, so he jumped on the first chance for immortality he could find and never mind the price.

That's my thinking on it, too. Also he probably knew that as a channeler of considerable strength, he'd have been expected to be part of the fight against the Shadow. Given the way things were going for the Light and the fact that the Shadow is much less forgiving to it's opponents he probably figured being on the Shadow side was the safer bet.

Daekyras
12-01-2009, 04:12 PM
We never really got a good description of what Asmo's activities were in the AOL beyond severing his mother. For all we know he could have been bad-ass!

This would be cool but he really is written as acoward in tSR and FoH..

as a badass his last words would be "you?! Bring it on bitch...."

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2009, 03:42 AM
That would give us more information than we have now, which would (at least somewhat) spoil the mystery. Therefor, I propose the following badass alternative last words: "You? Ye-es!"
That shows anticipation of an interesting fight, and the sissing sound that remains could even mask Nagini's voice, thus adding He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's snake to the list of suspects.

Spasmodean
12-02-2009, 05:24 AM
Coming back to Cadsuane - who taught her to invert weaves? She uses this method on her keepsafe box.

Daekyras
12-02-2009, 05:43 PM
Coming back to Cadsuane - who taught her to invert weaves? She uses this method on her keepsafe box.

Good Question. Kinda assumed Nynaeve myself. Can't remember that happening onscreen though. Maybe a forsaken. wait, that would mean...
:)

Kimon
12-02-2009, 08:43 PM
Coming back to Cadsuane - who taught her to invert weaves? She uses this method on her keepsafe box.

She inverted the shield that she was using to protect Rand and Nynaeve while they were using the Choedan Kal too ("Lightnings such as Cadsuane had never seen streaked down from the cloudless sky, not jagged bolts but lances of silver-blue that struck at the hilltop where she stood, and struk instead the inverted shield she had woven").

That of course does not tell us who taught her, though we are told that Nynaeve had been spending time with her just before this while they were all in Far Madding.