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nameless
12-01-2009, 02:43 AM
Well, BS has confirmed that Rand did not have the DO's permission to access the True Power. Does this mean that Shaidar Haran didn't deliberately sacrifice Semi in order to push Rand over to the dark side? No, not really. I came across two things relevant to Semirhage's demise while searching for the hidden clue in books 4-6 that indicate the Dark One knew she was as good as dead as soon as she picked up the Domination Bands.

Firstly, there's Moghedien's explanation to Nynaeve of how the Domination Bands work. In particular, there's the feedback effect she mentions. The Band only works properly for a limited amount of time, after which it becomes possible for the man wearing the collar to take control of the link and Dominate the woman or women wearing the bracelet(s). This reversal becomes more and more likely the longer the Domination Band is used. Because Moghedien spilled her life story to Shaidar Haran during her "interrogation" in the vacuole, it is a safe bet that he knew about the feedback. The question at hand is whether or not anyone bothered to tell Semirhage. There is of course no definitive answer at this point but I am leaning towards "no" based on the way she played with Rand in the Domination Band like a child with a new toy. If she were trying to minimize the risks she could have locked the collar on him to keep him from channeling and done the rest of the torture herself without ever putting the bracelets on. From her behavior she either planned to keep him trapped for a brief enough amount of time that she didn't feel at all threatened by the possibility of feedback in the link or else she didn't know that the feedback was a potential risk.

The second comes from Semirhage's point of view in Lord of Chaos
-Threads Woven of Shadow-
"What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent's High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed."

Here we see foreshadowing and dramatic irony. Of course, it's nothing conclusive. Since Semirhage died believing Rand had the Dark One's blessing to use True Power, she believed herself sacrificed and betrayed, so the quote above is paid off regardless.

Neither of these would mean much by themselves, but if you put Moghedien's distrust of the Domination Bands next to Semirhage's musings about t'cheran strategy and Moridin's sha'rah, a pattern emerges. Especially since the outcome of her death matches both the t'cheran and sha'rah analogies almost perfectly: in killing her Rand comes to know despair and anguish of heart and damn near destroys the whole world because of it.

If I'm right, the remaining question is how exactly the Dark One had planned Semirhage's death since the True Power was not supposed to be involved. My guess is that the DO could not have known that killing a single woman, and a sworn enemy to boot, would cause Rand sufficient anguish to switch him into the pure destruction mode. Sure, everyone knew that he didn't like hurting women, but I don't think anyone but Moraine really knew how much it meant to him. Therefore, in order to put Rand into the proper state of mind the Dark One sent Semirhage to go torture him senseless. Her torture implement, the Domination Band, was designed to break down in a few weeks, allowing Rand to escape on his own as soon as his heart was sufficiently blackened by the experience. All Rand did by accessing the True Power was move up the time table.

Terez
12-01-2009, 02:56 AM
Well, BS has confirmed that Rand did not have the DO's permission to access the True Power.
Actually, he hasn't. The signing that reported him saying that was challenged by another person present at the signing, so Tamyrlin asked Brandon about that when they went on their little car ride.

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714)

Matt: There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark One’s permission, so for clarification’s sake, did Rand have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power?

Brandon: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording [meaning that Matt has audio of this conversation - Terez]: generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it. It is good that you have asked this so I can make sure on the record that is the answer I have given.

nameless
12-01-2009, 03:05 AM
That's good to know. Of course, ambiguity about whether or not Rand had permission supports my "sacrifice" line of argument even more.

Several of the Forsaken have expressed concern that they're just pawns for the Dark One's power play, to be used and discarded, but as far as I can tell Semirhage is the only one who actually was deliberately sacrificed. I suppose you could make the case for Sammael, but I always read that scene as Moridin acting on his own to eliminate a potential rival rather than acting on orders from above.

Weird Harold
12-01-2009, 03:35 AM
Firstly, there's Moghedien's explanation to Nynaeve of how the Domination Bands work. In particular, there's the feedback effect she mentions.

One thing to remember about Moggy's explanation is that she explained the function in terms of one woman wearing both bracelets; She explicitly says the "problem" can be resolved -- at least for a time -- by sharing the bracelets with another woman.

Semirhage didn't have a problem with sharing the bracelets with Elza and probably wouldn't have much of a problem trading off with other women to avoid the feedback problem.

ckparrothead
12-01-2009, 12:12 PM
Good to see Sanderson's clarification about what it is he said and did not say.

Raen Mhaal
12-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Regarding Rand accessing the TP: I thought at the time that he got access to the TP via his 'link' with Moridin. Also, in tEoTW prologue, when Ishamael 'heals' Lews Therin of his madness (which I assume he did using the TP) - could this act of healing have perhaps created the link between them? Or at least be the point at which Lews Therin's soul was given the ability to tap the TP?

BS's quote is vague. His use of the word "generally", if used intentionally, means that it IS possible to use the TP WITHOUT the DO's permission. But how would anyone know about the existence of the TP? I think Rand subconsciously knows of the TP after Elan Morin's 'healing' from the above mentioned prologue, and that the healing is somehow tied in to how Rand was able to use it.

Ieyasu
12-01-2009, 09:38 PM
Regarding Rand accessing the TP: I thought at the time that he got access to the TP via his 'link' with Moridin. Also, in tEoTW prologue, when Ishamael 'heals' Lews Therin of his madness (which I assume he did using the TP) - could this act of healing have perhaps created the link between them? Or at least be the point at which Lews Therin's soul was given the ability to tap the TP?

BS's quote is vague. His use of the word "generally", if used intentionally, means that it IS possible to use the TP WITHOUT the DO's permission. But how would anyone know about the existence of the TP? I think Rand subconsciously knows of the TP after Elan Morin's 'healing' from the above mentioned prologue, and that the healing is somehow tied in to how Rand was able to use it.

The forces of the light knew about the True Power in the AoL. It isnt something new that Rand is just now learning about. They had to know about it back then for LTT to be able to recognize it.

When Rand thinks back about Moridin and his usage of the power when they were fighting Sammael, he distinctly remembers that he felt nothing and recognizes that as the trademark signature of the True Power. LTT also recognized it when Rand was channeling it when Semirhage was torturing him. These recognitions lead me to believe that, while the True Power might not have been common knowledge to everyone, it wasnt a secret that the Light were not aware of.

As for the link between them, it could have been established when Ishmael healed Lews Therin, but I highly doubt it would be significant. AS are aware of ppl they have healed on some level, as Nyn demonstrated with Moraine in regards to having healed the two river folk in the past (egwene & perrin), and could sense them. So that does show that some sort of link is created between healer and healee when the One Power is used, so it wouldnt surprise me if such could occur with True Power healings. I highly doubt if that tenacious link would survive Lews Therin's suicide. I also doubt it would survive Ishmaels death and rebirth. The link between Moridin and Rand came about because of the crossed balefire streams. I doubt this is the first time the True Power has come in contact with the One Power, as I am sure has happened many times in the war of shadow as well as each time Rand battled Ishmael. I do not think it was merely the effect of the two powers colliding together.... but lean more towards it being two opposing balefires of different sources colliding.

In short, I dont think a OP balefire crossing another OP balefire would do it. I dont think a TP balefire crossing another TP balefire would do it either. I think it happened because of OP balefire crossing TP balefire.

Uno
12-06-2009, 09:50 PM
The forces of the light knew about the True Power in the AoL. It isnt something new that Rand is just now learning about. They had to know about it back then for LTT to be able to recognize it.

Well, yeah, they drilled the Bore in an apparent attempt to reach "a new source of the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves." (Shadow Rising, ch. 26.

By the way, it ought to be "exit Semirhage." "Exeunt" is third person plural, "exit" third person singular. Yeah, I know, but what's the point of having a Latin minor from about a decade ago if I can't show off? God knows it's not useful for much else.

Wunderwaffe
12-07-2009, 02:05 PM
The forces of the light knew about the True Power in the AoL. It isnt something new that Rand is just now learning about. They had to know about it back then for LTT to be able to recognize it.

When Rand thinks back about Moridin and his usage of the power when they were fighting Sammael, he distinctly remembers that he felt nothing and recognizes that as the trademark signature of the True Power.


I would argue that although the True Power was known in the AoL, it wasn't very mainstream. Most people didn't know about it. I would contend that the reason the voice in Rand's head recognized the alien power as the True Power was by eliminating possibilities. If you are tapping into a power source, and it isn't saidin, it has to be the True Power. There is no other alternative power source.

Terez
12-07-2009, 02:15 PM
The voice in Rand's head didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, in Knife of Dreams, when he reasoned out the whole balefire connection thingy. He knew what it was simply based on the fact that he couldn't sense Moridin in Shadar Logoth. And that was Rand, not Lews Therin (go read it).

Wunderwaffe
12-07-2009, 02:22 PM
The voice in Rand's head didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, in Knife of Dreams, when he reasoned out the whole balefire connection thingy. He knew what it was simply based on the fact that he couldn't sense Moridin in Shadar Logoth. And that was Rand, not Lews Therin (go read it).


Exactly. Well put. If you are wielding balefire, summoning lightning from the heavens, throwing fireballs, working Healing, etc. and it isn't saidin or saidar being woven, then there isn't another alternative. (that we, the reader, or any of the characters are aware of up to this juncture)

Deductive reasoning ftw.

Tree Brother
12-07-2009, 04:04 PM
Exactly. Well put. If you are wielding balefire, summoning lightning from the heavens, throwing fireballs, working Healing, etc. and it isn't saidin or saidar being woven, then there isn't another alternative. (that we, the reader, or any of the characters are aware of up to this juncture)

Of course, there is the case where one hides ones ability to channel, and reverses weaves. That adds a bit to possible confusion.

Wunderwaffe
12-07-2009, 11:44 PM
Of course, there is the case where one hides ones ability to channel, and reverses weaves. That adds a bit to possible confusion.

That definitely adds to the confusion. However, I believe Rand was pretty confident that the Wanderer wasn't channeling saidin. Sure, we have seen one case of a female channeling the opposite power; but for the most part, males channel their half, females theirs. The Wanderer could have potentially been masking his ability, and inverting his weaves. We know he was channeling the True Power. Dramatic irony and all that jazz. I'm fairly confident that Rand knew something was amiss, and possibly recognized the Wanderer using the True Power at Shadar Logoth.

GonzoTheGreat
12-08-2009, 05:31 AM
The voice in Rand's head didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, in Knife of Dreams, when he reasoned out the whole balefire connection thingy. He knew what it was simply based on the fact that he couldn't sense Moridin in Shadar Logoth. And that was Rand, not Lews Therin (go read it).And where, pray tell me, did Rand get the phrase "their so-called True Power" from, if not from LTT?

It may of course be that Asmodean had talked about it, in which case Rand should have figured it out way before KoD. Actually, if Asmodean hadn't told Rand, then I am really wondering why he hadn't done that.

jason wolfbrother
12-08-2009, 10:54 PM
here is the actual quote

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon
When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

Generally thoughts are in italics and they are attributed to either Rand or LTT specifically. However, in this case it is not entirely clear whether it is Rand or LTT making the statement in Rand's head.

Terez
12-08-2009, 11:19 PM
here is the actual quote...

...Generally thoughts are in italics and they are attributed to either Rand or LTT specifically. However, in this case it is not entirely clear whether it is Rand or LTT making the statement in Rand's head.
It's more clear in context (italics don't work in quotes, alas):

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man’s face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse…[all of the previous is Rand's thoughts]

[This is Lews Therin] He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. [back to Rand's thoughts] He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. [Lews Therin again] How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

[Rand] If you don’t know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. [still Rand] But I was aware of him, as well. [back to Rand's thoughts] It had been a strange sensation, as if he were… touching… the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction. to touch him again. [Rand] I think he saw my face, too.

[Rand's thoughts] Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now… ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him.

[Rand again...and we know this because...] When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can’t think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. [Rand's thoughts] Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father’s farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond’s Field as if he had grown up there. [and because....still Rand] Does that make any sense to you? [he's asking Lews Therin is his previous little monologue about the balefire incident made any sense. therefore, that was Rand's thoughts.]

[Lews Therin answers] Oh Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. [Rand's thoughts] He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.
This is funny, two construct people arguing about whether it's Rand or Lews Therin speaking.

jason wolfbrother
12-08-2009, 11:32 PM
Lol yeah it is definitely clearer there with the full quote. thx Terez

Terez
12-08-2009, 11:38 PM
LOL I just realized I missed Gonzo's post. It's okay though because he's just pretending to misunderstand construct theory again.

Thread tagged!

Terez
12-08-2009, 11:47 PM
I would argue that although the True Power was known in the AoL, it wasn't very mainstream. Most people didn't know about it. I would contend that the reason the voice in Rand's head recognized the alien power as the True Power was by eliminating possibilities. If you are tapping into a power source, and it isn't saidin, it has to be the True Power. There is no other alternative power source.
This has always bothered me because of Moghedien's assumption that Halima was using saidin. But I suppose that Moghedien assumes that she is better informed about who is allowed to use it than Rand does - he just knows that it was used by the (many) Forsaken back in the day. It just seems odd that she would jump to something so impossible without yet having met any of the other transmigrated Forsaken.

ckparrothead
12-09-2009, 12:22 AM
Seems pretty clear that RJ set up that bit about how Lews Therin's memories came more clearly and seamlessly to him now, directly after the part where he says "their True Power"...the obvious implication being that Rand knows what the True Power is from Lews Therin's memories which are now seeming like his own.

Terez
12-09-2009, 12:41 AM
Seems pretty clear that RJ set up that bit about how Lews Therin's memories came more clearly and seamlessly to him now, directly after the part where he says "their True Power"...the obvious implication being that Rand knows what the True Power is from Lews Therin's memories which are now seeming like his own.
He did the same thing way back in Lord of Chaos:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

"I hear you’ve killed a number of the Forsaken. Should I call you my Lord Dragon? I have heard this lot use the title. Do you mean to kill all the Forsaken?"

"Do you know any other way to deal with them?" Rand asked. "They die, or the world does. Unless you think they can be talked into abandoning the Shadow the way they abandoned the Light." This was becoming ridiculous. Here he was, carrying on a conversation with a man who certainly had five sword points drawing blood beneath his coat while he himself held on to another man who wanted to add a sixth and draw more than a trickle. At least Bashere’s men were too disciplined to do more without their general’s word. At least Bashere was keeping his mouth shut. Admiring Taim’s coolness, Rand went on as quickly as he could without seeming to be hurried.

"Whatever your crimes are, Taim, they pale beside the Forsaken’s. Have you ever tortured an entire city, made thousands of people assist in breaking each other slowly, in breaking their own loved ones? Semirhage did that, for no more reason than that she could, to prove she could, for the pleasure of it. Have you murdered children? Graendal did. She called it kindness, so they would not suffer after she enslaved their parents and carried them away." He just hoped the other Saldaeans were listening half as closely as Taim; the man had actually leaned forward slightly in interest. He hoped they did not ask too many questions about where all this came from. "Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did – prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren’t murdered out of hand – but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies. Mesaana set up schools in the territory she controlled, schools where children and young people were taught the glories of the Dark One, taught to kill their friends who didn’t learn well enough or fast enough. I could go on. I could start from the beginning of the list and go through all thirteen names, adding a hundred crimes as bad to every name. Whatever you’ve done, it doesn’t rank with that. And now you’ve come to accept my pardon, to walk in the Light and submit to me, to battle the Dark One as hard as you ever battled anyone. The Forsaken are reeling; I mean to hunt them all down, eradicate them. And you will help me. For that, you’ve earned your pardon. I tell you true, you’ll probably earn it a hundred times over again before the Last Battle is done."

At last he felt Bashere’s arm relax, felt the man’s sword sliding back into its scabbard. Rand barely stopped himself from exhaling in relief. "I don’t see any reason to guard him so closely now. Put up your swords."

Slowly, Tumad and the others began sheathing their blades. Slowly, but they were doing it. Then Taim spoke.

"Submit? I had thought more of a compact between us." The other Saldaeans tensed; Bashere was still behind Rand, but Rand could feel him stiffening. The Maidens did not move a muscle, except that Jalani’s hand twitched toward her veil. Taim tilted his head, unaware. "I would be the lesser partner, of course, yet I have had years more than you to study the Power. There is much I could teach you."

Rage rose up in Rand till his vision filmed red. He had spoken of things he should have no knowledge of, had probably birthed a dozen rumors about himself and the Forsaken, all to make this fellow’s deeds seem less dark, and the man had the audacity to speak of compacts? Lews Therin raved in his head. Kill him! Kill him now! Kill him! For once Rand did not bother to quell the voice. "No compact!" he growled. "No partners! I am the Dragon Reborn, Taim! Me! If you have knowledge I can make use of, I will, but you will go where I say, do as I say, when I say."
In this scene, the memories come to Rand directly, and Lews Therin expresses Rand's suppressed thoughts (about wanting to kill Taim); in the scene in Knife of Dreams, the memories come to Rand directly, and Lews Therin expresses Rand's suppressed thoughts (about Ilyena).

I don't think it's so much that the memories are coming to him more clearly and seamlessly than that Rand's ability to deceive himself is wearing thin due to him having been slapped in the face with the truth so many times. The collapse of that self-deception goes into hyperdrive in The Gathering Storm; it's very much the same as watching Rand's conviction that Tam really was his father break down in the earlier books (and Rand mentioned that in The Gathering Storm).