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Tirade
12-11-2009, 03:44 PM
wha-wha-what? This info just got thrown out casually in TGS. Almost like it was something we were already supposed to know. It makes sense because we have never seen them pass through gateways before, but I think I missed that info the first time is was presented - so it was a big surprise for me.

Was it ever explained WHY they can't pass through gateways? I hope the explaination was a good one because that is a pretty big cop-out.

Terez
12-11-2009, 03:49 PM
wha-wha-what? This info just got thrown out casually in TGS. Almost like it was something we were already supposed to know.
LOL. (no offense, it's just funny)

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows

“A close run thing,” Logain muttered. “If this had happened before I arrive . . . A close-run thing.” He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. “Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly.”

“It doesn’t matter where they went,” Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. “Shadowspawn can’t survive passing through a gateway.”

Also,

Knife of Dreams book tour 24 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/201239/t/another-signing-report.html#reply-201239)

Q: Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?
RJ: It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.
Q: So would a Nym have the same problem?
RJ: Yes.
Q: How about Ogier? [Did this person not read Lord of Chaos or Crossroads of Twilight? - Terez]
RJ: No. Ogier are not artificial constructs.

jason wolfbrother
12-11-2009, 03:51 PM
Since you seem to have missed it in KoD ;)

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
"A close run thing," Logain muttered. "If this had happened before I arrived. ... A close-run thing." He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. "Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly." "It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
And rather than remaining fixed, they sped toward the Trollocs. Gateways and yet not. Deathgates. As soon as the Deathgates began to move, Lews Therin knotted the webs, a loose knotting that would hold only for minutes before allowing the whole weave to dissipate, and began spinning again. More Deathgates, more Blossoms of Fire, rattling the walls of the house, blowing Trollocs apart, flinging them down.
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
The first of the speeding Deathgates struck the Trollocs and carved through them. It was not just the slicing edge of the constantly opening and closing gateways. Where a Deathgate passed, there simply were no Trollocs remaining. My hands! the madman howled. My hands!

Kurtz
12-11-2009, 05:32 PM
Yeah, anyone have the explanation for this?

Weird Harold
12-11-2009, 05:46 PM
Yeah, anyone have the explanation for this?
Read the second post.

Interesting thing here:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
The first of the speeding Deathgates struck the Trollocs and carved through them.

Apparently, while Shadowspawn can't pass through gateways, gateways have no problem passing through sahdowspawn. :D

GonzoTheGreat
12-11-2009, 05:54 PM
An older gateway discussion (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/4540?page=1). Another older gateway discussion (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/44436#reply-44436).

Killing shadowspawn with a gateway isn't really a new idea, though my approach may have been a bit more elaborate than really necessary. Rereading those threads did give the impression that we hadn't really anticipated deathgates until they appeared.

Kurtz
12-11-2009, 06:00 PM
Read the second post.


bad joke tbf

Ishara
12-11-2009, 08:47 PM
LOL. (no offense, it's just funny)
ROFLMAO

ETA: Not laughing at you Tirade. Laughing at T. Cause she made me laugh.C ause she's funny in her restraint.

Tirade
12-12-2009, 11:26 PM
So the only real explaination we get is from RJ in a Q and A?

"Artificial constructs can't pass through gateways"? It seems like a very arbitrary rule that he just invented for convenience to the plot. I'd expect that kind of thing from a harry potter book, but not wheel of time.

I would be much more prone to buying this concept if we actually saw a scene where Aginor was actively experimenting with ways to teleport trollocs and failing.

Terez
12-12-2009, 11:34 PM
So the only real explaination we get is from RJ in a Q and A?

"Artificial constructs can't pass through gateways"? It seems like a very arbitrary rule that he just invented for convenience to the plot. I'd expect that kind of thing from a harry potter book, but not wheel of time.
News flash: it's happened in every single book you've ever read, lol. Everything in fiction is created for the convenience of the plot.

I would be much more prone to buying this concept if we actually saw a scene where Aginor was actively experimenting with ways to teleport trollocs and failing.
Don't you think the books are long enough? Why should we have to see every little detail of what happens? RJ said RAFO a billion times because he was planning on doing something with the info in the books, or maybe just considering it. The interview questions that he does answer are perks for the hard core fans who are anxious to have debates settled. It's a bit of give and take; some of us want him to answer questions that others would rather read in the books, and we all have different opinions. Sometimes he answers the questions we'd like him to answer; sometimes he answers questions we would rather have read in the books. I never have seen any real purpose in bitching about it when things don't go my way. I make critical comments on some things sometimes, but dwelling on those things is tedious at best.

GonzoTheGreat
12-13-2009, 03:43 AM
I never have seen any real purpose in bitching about it when things don't go my way.RJ was just plain wrong on the Cleansing of saidin, and I intend to convince him of that one of these days.

Terez
12-13-2009, 04:26 AM
I'm sure he will be happy to debate it with you beyond the PGIWYDNB.

Jokeslayer
12-13-2009, 07:54 AM
So the only real explaination we get is from RJ in a Q and A?

"Artificial constructs can't pass through gateways"? It seems like a very arbitrary rule that he just invented for convenience to the plot. I'd expect that kind of thing from a harry potter book, but not wheel of time.

I would be much more prone to buying this concept if we actually saw a scene where Aginor was actively experimenting with ways to teleport trollocs and failing.

How would that scene make it anything other than an arbitrary rule? I agree that it doesn't really make any sense (other artificual constructs like ter'angreal pass through just fine, so I suppose it must be something to do with both the use of the OP in their construction and the presence of a soul) but it's something RJ probably knew he was going to include for a long time. The Forsaken have been out since TGH and Shadowspawn were still using the Ways as late as KoD.

Terez
12-13-2009, 12:52 PM
I agree that it doesn't really make any sense (other artificual constructs like ter'angreal pass through just fine, so I suppose it must be something to do with both the use of the OP in their construction and the presence of a soul)
LOL, the Trollocs don't disappear when they go through - they just die. Ter'angreal are not LIVING.

Jokeslayer
12-13-2009, 01:44 PM
LOL, the Trollocs don't disappear when they go through - they just die. Ter'angreal are not LIVING.

a) TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
The first of the speeding Deathgates struck the Trollocs and carved through them. It was not just the slicing edge of the constantly opening and closing gateways. Where a Deathgate passed, there simply were no Trollocs remaining.

Even if they're dead and on the other side of the gateway, you should still be able to see them, unless the gate opens to a different place each time.

b)That doesn't explain why they die, though, does it? I was trying to come up with something better than "because". The point of mentioning the ter'angreal was that they are made with the OP and pass through unaffected.

Weird Harold
12-13-2009, 02:10 PM
Even if they're dead and on the other side of the gateway, you should still be able to see them, unless the gate opens to a different place each time.

If you read a bit further down that chapter, you find the answer to why you can't see them:

A close run thing," Logain muttered. "If this had happened before I arrived… A close-run thing." He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. "Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly."

"It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go. man. "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join llyena.

If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal? "People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them," he said aloud.

I seem to remember dying. Lews Therin murmured. I remember how I did it. He drew deeper still, and small pains grew in Rand's temples.

"Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens." Rand rubbed at his temples. That pain was a warning. He was close to the amount of saidin he could hold without dying or being burnt out. You can't die yet, he told Lews Therin. We have to reach Tarmon Gai'don or the world dies.

Terez
12-13-2009, 02:23 PM
That doesn't explain why they die, though, does it? I was trying to come up with something better than "because". The point of mentioning the ter'angreal was that they are made with the OP and pass through unaffected.
Again, ter'angreal are not living. Living constructs can't survive the passage; non-living constructs have nothing to lose.

Jokeslayer
12-13-2009, 03:10 PM
WH: OK, thanks.

Again, ter'angreal are not living. Living constructs can't survive the passage; non-living constructs have nothing to lose.

But again, there's no why. That's all my point really is now, that there's no known reason why they can't other than "because". Gateways don't interfere with other living things or with other constructed things, it's only the combination of the two.

Daekyras
12-13-2009, 03:35 PM
WH: OK, thanks.



But again, there's no why. That's all my point really is now, that there's no known reason why they can't other than "because". Gateways don't interfere with other living things or with other constructed things, it's only the combination of the two.

Agree. There is no explanation- just take it on faith. I think Jokeslayer wants to know why. He's not debating it happens, it clearly does!

He just wants to know why.
Ha, maybe the gate "spanks" the shadowspawn offscreen :D

Trutino
12-13-2009, 04:13 PM
News flash: it's happened in every single book you've ever read, lol. Everything in fiction is created for the convenience of the plot.

Agreed. Jokeslayer, I remember reading about shadowspawn not passing trough gateways and raising my eyebrows pretty high because it seemed random. After I thought about it more, I remembered how gateways had always seemed like a tricky concept. How to have Traveling and have it not destroy the plot. (Similar to how the Ways had to be limited and portal stones haven't really come back.) RJ was very careful about how he gave out that weave to different characters throughout the series. If trollocs and myrddral were able to travel, though, it would kill the story. I think that in return for getting to enjoy awesome stuff like Gateways, the Ways, and Portal Stones, we have to accept certain restrictions placed there to keep these things from being overused or giving one side an insurmountable advantage.

Terez
12-13-2009, 05:28 PM
But again, there's no why. That's all my point really is now, that there's no known reason why they can't other than "because". Gateways don't interfere with other living things or with other constructed things, it's only the combination of the two.
So what is your point? RJ gave us part of the answer but not the whole answer; it's hardly the first time.

Weird Harold
12-13-2009, 05:36 PM
WH: OK, thanks.



But again, there's no why. That's all my point really is now, that there's no known reason why they can't other than "because". Gateways don't interfere with other living things or with other constructed things, it's only the combination of the two.
Gateways reduce all constructs to the same level -- non-living.

If it wasn't living before, it leaves the gateway still dead. If it was living, then it leaves the gateway the same as non-living constructs -- Dead.

FWIW, the inability of shadowspawn to Travel came as a complete surprise because there was no foreshadowing and no logical need for Deathgates to work for that reason. Innumerable suggestions for using Gateways as weapons sprouted like weeds as soon as the first gateway sliced through something -- like gating enemies into space or opening a gateway's exit above its entrance so the victim falls reaches terminal velocity before the gateway disappears, et al.

Daekyras
12-13-2009, 05:42 PM
....opening a gateway's exit above its entrance so the victim falls reaches terminal velocity before the gateway disappears....

Ah Portal, how you took physics and turned it into this. Still a great game but no, just no.

Weird Harold
12-13-2009, 05:51 PM
Ah Portal, how you took physics and turned it into this. Still a great game but no, just no.
Actually, that suggestion is in Terez' Interview/Q&A database, IIRC. It's almost as memorable as the question about what would happen if someone opened a gate from in front to in back of themselves and then balefired tehmself throughthe gateway. :rolleyes:

I said suggestions sprouted like weeds; I didn't say that all of them made sense. :D

Daekyras
12-13-2009, 06:02 PM
I know Harold. I got that from your original message.

I recommend the books to a lot of my friends/students and it is something that gets asked by just about everyone who has ever played Portal.

Actually, that suggestion is in Terez' Interview/Q&A database, IIRC. It's almost as memorable as the question about what would happen if someone opened a gate from in front to in back of themselves and then balefired tehmself throughthe gateway.

Really? I must check that out. And surely the person would be dead....:D:D:p

Jokeslayer
12-13-2009, 08:40 PM
So what is your point? RJ gave us part of the answer but not the whole answer; it's hardly the first time.

My point is probably that "just because" is boring and unsatisfying and maybe there's some way to look at the available evidence that will tell us something we don't know. But maybe not.

Terez
12-13-2009, 08:54 PM
Okay. But it was weird how your point morphed from 'it doesn't make sense because ter'angreal can go through gateways' to that, lol.

Tirade
12-14-2009, 02:33 AM
Calling trollocs magical constructs is a pretty thin stretch too. They are not goloms, they are not inanimate objects given life.

As far as I understand it, they are the result of magically aided cross-breeding between species. I always assumed they were born from something, however unholy the process is. They are still living creatures with bones and blood and organs. They need to eat to survive like the rest of us. How is that not a living creature?

If a gateway is THAT magically disruptive to undo a trolloc's spark of life, you'd think it would have all sorts of other consequences and restrictions. But so far, that seems like the only one we've heard.

OK so riddle me this-

The Ways were grown out of the knowledge of gateways and traveling. It is pretty much a permanent skimming structure. You'd think then, that the barriers, the Waysgates are made of the exact same magic as a gateway. The Waygates seem pretty serious, but they pose no threat to Shadowspawn, hmmm.....

And this is DESPITE the fact that the Ways were grown AFTER the war of power - with full knowledge that Gateways are deadly to shadowspawn. So the creators of the Ways then decided to OMIT that feature from the Waygates? Huh?

Ponderous.

***Edit - maybe the taint on the ways is what allows them to pass through it without dying, but i thought the taint on the ways was not the DO's taint. But if they can pass through a tainted gateway then any of the forsaken should be able to transport shadowspawn using the true power. Arg, my brain hurts.****

Jokeslayer
12-14-2009, 08:01 AM
Okay. But it was weird how your point morphed from 'it doesn't make sense because ter'angreal can go through gateways' to that, lol.

That "maybe not" applies both to whether we can learn anything new and if that's what my point was. That should have been obvious...

(Actually, I mentioned ter'angreal because they're magically constructed but are unaffected by gateways. Seems kinda similar to me)

Terez
12-14-2009, 09:14 AM
Yet not similar at all, lol.

Bonzi77
12-14-2009, 09:51 AM
Ter'angreal aren't living things and can't die. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can send a trolloc through a gateway and the body will go through, but the trolloc will die.

Chances are we'll never get more clarification on this, unless it's some unseen plot point and RJ wrote down a more detailed clarification in his notes. It's also possible that he made it that way just because it was more convenient for the story, but I think RJ has more than earned the benefit of the doubt as it concerns his world building.

Jokeslayer
12-14-2009, 12:27 PM
Ter'angreal aren't living things and can't die

This has to be like the tenth time that's been said in this thread. and I have to wonder at what point it wasn't obvious. They can't die, but they can be damaged or interfered with (see melting access key, Egwene's testing)

Bonzi77
12-14-2009, 01:15 PM
This has to be like the tenth time that's been said in this thread. and I have to wonder at what point it wasn't obvious. They can't die, but they can be damaged or interfered with (see melting access key, Egwene's testing)

But what does one have to do with the other. The weave (or however it was done) to create a new species of living thing that was previously impossible is significantly different than the weave that gives an inanimate object the power to do whatever a particular ter'angreal does. So it's not a huge leap of faith to understand why they're two completely different things.

This is hardly the only thing in the WoT universe where we don't know the "science" behind why something happens. Why do men and women Travel differently? Why are men and women on average different in different aspects of the power? How exactly does any ter'angreal work? It's not because there's not an answer for any of these questions, it's just that it would take thousands upon thousands of pages to answer every question. That's probably part of the reason why the notes are so vast. Also, none of the characters in these books are omniscient about their own universe, and since we can only know what they know, it makes sense that there are mysteries.

RJ didn't throw this in late in the game to accommodate a plot point. Trollocs were traveling through the ways in the very first book. So I don't see why this particular unexplained phenomenon is any different than any other.

Kimon
12-14-2009, 03:56 PM
I hadn't been aware of this problem also applying to the nym, but i suppose that does raise a potential question regarding what degree of genetic engineering would correspond with an inability to safely "travel". Since other selectively bred animals like horses have safely traveled supposedly so to would others, like dogs. Of course dogs and horses, while the product of selective breeding are still stable species, which is to say, are capable of producing viable offspring. So is it only nonviable mutants that can't travel? Would that mean that a sterile mutant human wouldn't survive a trip through a gateway? Or are the Nym somehow leftover Shadowspawn from some age long prior to the age of legends, that went tame, then went extinct? Speaking of the possibility of tame shadowspawn, has RJ or BS ever said whether or not raken are tame shadowspawn?

Ishara
12-14-2009, 04:02 PM
Contructs, by their very nature are created. They are not natural (i.e. naturally ocurring in nature), be they Nym or Trollocs.

Now, this is complicated (I admit) by the fact that Trollocs are not actually non-viable. They reproduce - frequently. In fact, Myrdraal are offspring of Trollocs, a throwback to their human contributors.

We don't know if the Nym reproduced, or simply were, as we've only ever met one - Someshta. We've seen others (in tSR, very briefly), but only ever met one.

Comparing a construct with a specific breed of dog is a misnomer in my opinion. One is breeding for specifics from an existing species, and the other is creating something brand new form disparate parts.

lsm
12-14-2009, 04:08 PM
RJ didn't throw this in late in the game to accommodate a plot point. Trollocs were traveling through the ways in the very first book. So I don't see why this particular unexplained phenomenon is any different than any other.

this explains that very well. one had to wonder over the years why shadowspawn werent showing up everywhere.

the two rivers attack (teotw and tsr), stone of tear.. these were all explained how they got there. now as for the trollocs in the aiel waste otoh, either they were very sneaky or there was an unknown waygate

as for the Nym.. they are artificial constructs? how do we know that, or rather how did the guy asking the questions to RJ knew to associate Nym with the answer he got from trollocs?

Jemlin
12-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Pardon, but are we 100% sure they can not pass through simply because they are *constructs*?

No where is it said "Constructs can not pass through gateways", they explicitly say "Shadowspawn." Its also a thought that comes from Lews Therin.

We know that the Blight is not a part of normal reality. Trollocs and Shadowspawn are made in the Blight and a part of it in some fashion, so they are probably tied to that REality.

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that, because they are not quite a part of "normal reality" or they have some connection to the Blight (which is non reality), that there is some sort of "issue" when they pass through a reality/bending gateway? Like, a major short circut, that consequently ends their life?

wolframbohr2
12-14-2009, 04:51 PM
Q: Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?
RJ: It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.
Q: So would a Nym have the same problem?
RJ: Yes.
Q: How about Ogier? [Did this person not read Lord of Chaos or Crossroads of Twilight? - Terez]
RJ: No. Ogier are not artificial constructs.



from the database

Weird Harold
12-14-2009, 05:02 PM
Pardon, but are we 100% sure they can not pass through simply because they are *constructs*?

reread post # in this thread: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80546&postcount=2

Terez
12-14-2009, 05:03 PM
Pardon
Only because it's your first post. ;)

Bonzi77
12-14-2009, 06:22 PM
I hadn't been aware of this problem also applying to the nym, but i suppose that does raise a potential question regarding what degree of genetic engineering would correspond with an inability to safely "travel". Since other selectively bred animals like horses have safely traveled supposedly so to would others, like dogs. Of course dogs and horses, while the product of selective breeding are still stable species, which is to say, are capable of producing viable offspring. So is it only nonviable mutants that can't travel? Would that mean that a sterile mutant human wouldn't survive a trip through a gateway? Or are the Nym somehow leftover Shadowspawn from some age long prior to the age of legends, that went tame, then went extinct? Speaking of the possibility of tame shadowspawn, has RJ or BS ever said whether or not raken are tame shadowspawn?

Horses or dogs are a different phenomenon altogether. A Trolloc is an impossible pairing of human and animal DNA that could not occur naturally. A human could not have a child with an animal no matter how much bestiality was involved. Aginor used the power to create an impossible bonding of DNA. A specially bred horse or dog is the natural union of other horses or dogs.

As for the nym, I doubt they are tame Shadowspawn. All Shadowspawn are constructs (I believe) but not all contructs are Shadowspawn. Rand/Lew Therin specifies Shadowspawn in his explanation because that is what was relevant to the discussion at hand, but not because ONLY Shadowspawn can't Travel.

Terez
12-14-2009, 06:35 PM
All Shadowspawn are constructs (I believe)
All but Gray Men.

but not all contructs are Shadowspawn.
Nym and chora trees (like Avendesora) are examples of non-Shadow constructs.

Ieyasu
12-14-2009, 07:11 PM
...and chora trees (like Avendesora) are examples of non-Shadow constructs.

Are you sure chora trees are constructs? I have always thought they were just a type of tree that is no longer common. Do you have a quote where they were created rather than just grown, because I do not recall that it was every specified outright that they were created rather than grown...

...Speaking of the possibility of tame shadowspawn, has RJ or BS ever said whether or not raken are tame shadowspawn?

Yes, RJ has clarified where those animals come from. The Seanchan animals are aliens. They are native of other worlds and were brought to our world via portal stones.

Check out Terez's link for interview quotes.

Daekyras
12-14-2009, 07:20 PM
Yes, RJ has clarified where those animals come from. The Seanchan animals are aliens. They are native of other worlds and were brought to our world via portal stones.


What? Seriously?

I think I'll die a little inside if thats true.

Terez
12-14-2009, 07:25 PM
Are you sure chora trees are constructs?
Yes.

Weird Harold
12-14-2009, 07:27 PM
but because ONLY Shadowspawn can't Travel.

RJ's q&A response explicitly confirming that Nym cannot Travel becaause they are constructs has been cited at least three times in this thread.

Are you sure chora trees are constructs?

BWB
Chapter 3
TheAge of Legends

One particularly interesting fragment records Aes Sedai participating in an avenue of research that led to the development of living constructs made with and/or able to utilize the One Power. Chora trees were one such construct. Their large green trefoil leaves emitted an aura of peace and well being to any who passed beneath them. The Nym, another construct, were sentient beings with the ability to utilize the One Power for the benefit of plants and growing things. As a nameless scribe in Paaren Disen wrote, “Where a Nym touched, all manner of green and growing things thrived.”


Granted, both of those answers come from outside of the mainline novels, and many people don't bother with (or not aware of )interviews and the BWB, but they are canon nontheless.

Weird Harold
12-14-2009, 07:30 PM
What? Seriously?

I think I'll die a little inside if thats true.
BWB
Chapter 18
Exotic Animals of Seanchan

When Luthair Paendrag’s armies began their conquest of Seanchan, they confronted not only the terrifying Aes Sedai who freely used the Power as a military weapon, but strange beasts out of nightmare that flew at them from above or attacked them with claws and teeth, often tearing men from their saddles to devour them on the spot. From horned frog-creatures the size of large bears to horse-sized catlike animals, these creatures seemed as if they could only have come from the evil of Shadow. It was thus, between the Aes Sedai and the creatures believed to be some new kind of Shadowspawn, that the defenders of this new continent came to be known as the Armies of the Night.

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

By the time Luthair invaded, such creatures as the grolm, torm, lopar, corlm, raken, and to’raken were used throughout the armies of the area. After his successful conquest, Luthair adopted them into his own armies, like his newly leashed damane. His descendants continue the tradition. The animals are currently maintained as an essential part of the military, with their handlers and trainers assured an honored place in the hierarchy.

Bonzi77
12-14-2009, 09:19 PM
RJ's q&A response explicitly confirming that Nym cannot Travel becaause they are constructs has been cited at least three times in this thread.



BWB
Chapter 3
TheAge of Legends

One particularly interesting fragment records Aes Sedai participating in an avenue of research that led to the development of living constructs made with and/or able to utilize the One Power. Chora trees were one such construct. Their large green trefoil leaves emitted an aura of peace and well being to any who passed beneath them. The Nym, another construct, were sentient beings with the ability to utilize the One Power for the benefit of plants and growing things. As a nameless scribe in Paaren Disen wrote, “Where a Nym touched, all manner of green and growing things thrived.”


Granted, both of those answers come from outside of the mainline novels, and many people don't bother with (or not aware of )interviews and the BWB, but they are canon nontheless.


Yeah, I meant to put the word not before only. That was an important word to leave out. My bad.

Daekyras
12-14-2009, 09:28 PM
These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking,

Thank god- No aliens then. I have not died inside.

Jemlin
12-14-2009, 09:48 PM
reread post # in this thread: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80546&postcount=2

Ah, well I only pretend to know how to read :cool:

Yuri33
12-14-2009, 10:09 PM
Funny that Myrdraal can't pass through gateways but can potentially be bonded.

hippie-joe
12-15-2009, 12:37 AM
So the only real explaination we get is from RJ in a Q and A?

"Artificial constructs can't pass through gateways"? It seems like a very arbitrary rule that he just invented for convenience to the plot. I'd expect that kind of thing from a harry potter book, but not wheel of time.

I would be much more prone to buying this concept if we actually saw a scene where Aginor was actively experimenting with ways to teleport trollocs and failing.

first off, what does PGIWYDNB mean? and second, tirade, RJ was all about balance, this balances out swift travel. the dark forces get the ways and the good guys along with the OP and TP weilding bad guys get to travel and skim. traveling is infinatly better than the ways which is how it balances out with the really bad bad guys getting to as well. if this came up before i mention it in this thread, oh well i didn't feel like reading them all b4 i forgot what i wanted to say:D

Terez
12-15-2009, 12:43 AM
first off, what does PGIWYDNB mean?
It's a modification of the well-known acronym, BIWIDNB. You should be able to work it out from that.

hippie-joe
12-15-2009, 12:47 AM
It's a modification of the well-known acronym, BIWIDNB. You should be able to work it out from that.

i don't know what that is either and i'm too tired to figure it out. i'd rather jsut be told

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2009, 05:25 AM
BIWIDNB stands for Being In Which I Do Not Believe.
The latter part of PGIWYDNB is, obviously, almost the same, apart from using another (for this purpose more appropriate) pronoun.

Jokeslayer
12-15-2009, 06:54 AM
But what does one have to do with the other.

Maybe nothing, maybe something. You don't know if you don't look at the options.

The weave (or however it was done) to create a new species of living thing that was previously impossible is significantly different than the weave that gives an inanimate object the power to do whatever a particular ter'angreal does.
Proof? We have no idea how the trolloc-making process works. I don't think it's beyond reasonable to suggest there could be a link between the two (or at least between trollocs and some ter'angreal)

This is hardly the only thing in the WoT universe where we don't know the "science" behind why something happens. Why do men and women Travel differently? Why are men and women on average different in different aspects of the power? How exactly does any ter'angreal work? It's not because there's not an answer for any of these questions, it's just that it would take thousands upon thousands of pages to answer every question. That's probably part of the reason why the notes are so vast.
And this should stop me from speculating why?
Also, none of the characters in these books are omniscient about their own universe, and since we can only know what they know, it makes sense that there are mysteries.
We can know much more than they know. Not only do we have access to all of them (thus we know Asmo is dead while Rand thinks he ran off) we also have access to the notes RJ left (and had access to the man himself before he died) doubtless giving us information none of the characters have.

RJ didn't throw this in late in the game to accommodate a plot point. Trollocs were traveling through the ways in the very first book. So I don't see why this particular unexplained phenomenon is any different than any other.
If I could try to explain all of them, I would.
We know that the Blight is not a part of normal reality. Trollocs and Shadowspawn are made in the Blight and a part of it in some fashion, so they are probably tied to that REality.
Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that, because they are not quite a part of "normal reality" or they have some connection to the Blight (which is non reality), that there is some sort of "issue" when they pass through a reality/bending gateway? Like, a major short circut, that consequently ends their life?
See, that's an interesting thought. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting.
the dark forces get the ways
Machin Shin says hi.
The dark forces don't really "get" the ways, they're just callous enough to use them. The light could use the ways too if they wanted to (as they have done)
Do we know if constructs can skim? Or if they could enter TAR the way Egwene did in LoC?

hippie-joe
12-15-2009, 08:40 AM
BIWIDNB stands for Being In Which I Do Not Believe.
The latter part of PGIWYDNB is, obviously, almost the same, apart from using another (for this purpose more appropriate) pronoun.

see i never would have guessed that BIWIDNB stood for that but thank you for that enlightening tid bit. i will be pondering the PG all day trying to puzzle it out, or maybe i'll just forget about it, who knows...

hippie-joe
12-15-2009, 08:47 AM
Machin Shin says hi.
The dark forces don't really "get" the ways, they're just callous enough to use them. The light could use the ways too if they wanted to (as they have done)
Do we know if constructs can skim? Or if they could enter TAR the way Egwene did in LoC?
technically you are right, but machin shin is proof that the DO gets the ways as it is the DO's taint on saidin that caused it. furthermore, anytime mat, rand or perrin are there when the gateway to the ways is openned machin shin is there ready to try to escape and well... devower or corrupt or whatever it does

Ishara
12-15-2009, 08:59 AM
Yeah, I meant to put the word not before only. That was an important word to leave out. My bad.
LOL.

Jemlin, love your avatar!!

Sometimes T, you must feel like a damn prophet.

T - "X is truth."

Everyone else - "Are you sure? Prove it!"

Jokeslayer
12-15-2009, 09:34 AM
technically you are right, but machin shin is proof that the DO gets the ways as it is the DO's taint on saidin that caused it. furthermore, anytime mat, rand or perrin are there when the gateway to the ways is openned machin shin is there ready to try to escape and well... devower or corrupt or whatever it does

no just no just no just no.

Machin Shin proves the Dark One gets the ways because it kills his troops? Remeber that the Light don't need the ways since they have no problem Travelling.

Also there's this:

Q: About Machin Shin in the Ways: since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard them as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?
RJ: It's not a servant of the Dark One.
from http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_89djj2tjpj

Machin Shin does not give the control of the Ways to the DO. It's just that trollocs are expendable enough and the Shadow is callous/confident enough to throw away a hundred trollocs to get ten through. The Shadow does not have the Ways.

Spasmodean
12-15-2009, 11:18 AM
Do we know if constructs can skim? Or if they could enter TAR the way Egwene did in LoC?

Is Slayer a construct?

Terez
12-15-2009, 12:56 PM
Sometimes T, you must feel like a damn prophet.

T - "X is truth."

Everyone else - "Are you sure? Prove it!"
LOL, yes, and Ieyasu seems only post when he believes I'm wrong about something (when, 9 times out of 10, I'm not). It's a little annoying.

Ieyasu
12-15-2009, 01:26 PM
LOL, yes, and Ieyasu seems only post when he believes I'm wrong about something (when, 9 times out of 10, I'm not). It's a little annoying.

I didn't believe you were wrong. I never gave Chora trees much thought as I just dismissed them as a previously common tree that has nearly gone extinct. I am not intimately familiar with the BWB, so I didn't remember that one sentence. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry if I asked a "quotemistress" to provide a quote for something I wasn't familiar with. Though I guess you have removed that from your signature. :rolleyes:

Be annoyed all you want Terez, this was just a side note to my post and caught my attention as I never gave the trees origins much thought. The purpose of my post was to say that the Seanchan animals were aliens brought in from portal stones.

Thanks for posting that chora quote, WH.

Thank god- No aliens then. I have not died inside.

They aren't native of this world, I consider them aliens.

Though I thought that quote was from an interview rather than the BWB... again, goes to show I am not so intimately familiar with that eye sore.

Daekyras
12-15-2009, 02:27 PM
They aren't native of this world, I consider them aliens.

Though I thought that quote was from an interview rather than the BWB... again, goes to show I am not so intimately familiar with that eye sore.

Ah, I see what you mean.

I was just thinking that explaining them away as being from a different planet would hav been sloppy and lazy. The fact they come from alternate versions of Randland makes perfect sense within the internal logic of the series.

If, say, in a Feist novel a new creature is described as "from another planet" it would make sense as the hall of worlds exists(Great Concept) and the Valheru have been shown to travel the universe.

In Randland, no such allusions have been made. Although I could be wrong as I too have barely scanned the BWB and rarely have the time for reading past interviews.

Marie Curie 7
12-15-2009, 02:31 PM
BWB
Chapter 18
Exotic Animals of Seanchan

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.


There's no question that the Seanchan exotics were brought back from another world(s), but I just wanted to point out that there appears to be a contradiction in that quote from the BWB. It says that they were brought back from parallel worlds by portal stone.

But RJ made it clear in one interview that portal stones lead to mirror worlds, not parallel worlds:


DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

Tamyrlin: This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

Clearly, RJ is pretty emphatic in this statement that parallel worlds are separate and apparently can't be reached by portal stone. The portal stones lead to the "Worlds of If", the mirror worlds.

They aren't native of this world, I consider them aliens.

Though I thought that quote was from an interview rather than the BWB... again, goes to show I am not so intimately familiar with that eye sore.

Yeah, it was in an interview quote, too:

Thus Spake The Creator - Other Lands

Q: Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?

RJ: They are the 'exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the portal stones). When Rand saw grolm in the Portal Stone world, he was seeing them in the native 'land'.

So here RJ refers to the portal stone worlds as 'parallel dimensions'. Would not parallel dimensions lead to parallel worlds? If so, then here RJ is indicating that portal stones lead to parallel worlds, which directly contradicts what he said in the previous quote. :confused:

Crispin's Crispian
12-15-2009, 02:49 PM
There's no question that the Seanchan exotics were brought back from another world(s), but I just wanted to point out that there appears to be a contradiction in that quote from the BWB. It says that they were brought back from parallel worlds by portal stone.

But RJ made it clear in one interview that portal stones lead to mirror worlds, not parallel worlds:



Clearly, RJ is pretty emphatic in this statement that parallel worlds are separate and apparently can't be reached by portal stone. The portal stones lead to the "Worlds of If", the mirror worlds.



Yeah, it was in an interview quote, too:



So here RJ refers to the portal stone worlds as 'parallel dimensions'. Would not parallel dimensions lead to parallel worlds? If so, then here RJ is indicating that portal stones lead to parallel worlds, which directly contradicts what he said in the previous quote. :confused:

This all begs the question: what the hell is a parallel world if it's different from a mirror world? The mirror worlds are the Worlds of If, created based on potential decisions that might have been made. What are parallel worlds, then?

Yuri33
12-15-2009, 03:00 PM
Worlds like where the 'Finns reside.

Marie Curie 7
12-15-2009, 03:02 PM
This all begs the question: what the hell is a parallel world if it's different from a mirror world? The mirror worlds are the Worlds of If, created based on potential decisions that might have been made. What are parallel worlds, then?

Well, in my opinion, parallel worlds are worlds in other dimensions. Or in other "universes", I suppose, if you like. We know Finnland is in a parallel world, for example.

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?
Jordan: Yes.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?
Jordan: No, they are different.

Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?
Jordan: Possibly.

So the parallel worlds are distinctly different from mirror worlds - the parallel worlds do not represent probabilities of possible outcomes from different decisions like the mirror worlds do. The parallel worlds seem to be "real" worlds rather than "simulations" (like the mirror worlds).

nameless
12-16-2009, 12:56 AM
RJ had a physics background and therefore knew perfectly well that parallel worlds, parallel dimensions, and parallel universes are three different things. The distinctions between them are academic and not really interesting to anyone who isn't a physics dork, which is probably why the BWB didn't bother to get it right.

For what it's worth, I've identified at least 7 different dimensions in the WoT universe and there could be more than 10. The mirror worlds are separated from the prime world by the dimension of Probability. The Finn worlds are separated by some other dimension that I haven't yet come up with a name for because we've been told so little about it. If you traveled to one of the Finn worlds and then traveled through Probability you might well end up in a mirror Finn world, if there is such a thing.

Yuri33
12-16-2009, 11:38 AM
You have a serious misunderstanding about the concepts of dimension and universe, even allowing for RJ using poetic license. I would love to hear this list of "7 different dimensions" you have assembled.

And I am a physics dork...

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2009, 11:48 AM
Lemme see:
Three spatial dimensions. Obvious.
One (at least) go-to-*finn dimension.
One Mirror World dimension, travellable with the Portal Stones.
One Machin Shin dimension. Previously known as the Ways, but now under new ownership.
The Skimming Dimension.
TAR.

That's eight already, not counting time.
The DO may or may not have dimensions of his own.
The souls of dead non-Heroes may have one or more dimensions too.
The Travelling wormholes penetrate a dimension too, though a good mathematician can probably argue that that dimension does not really need to exist.
Then there's time.

Terez
12-16-2009, 12:01 PM
Lemme see:
Three spatial dimensions. Obvious.
One (at least) go-to-*finn dimension.
One Mirror World dimension, travellable with the Portal Stones.
One Machin Shin dimension. Previously known as the Ways, but now under new ownership.
The Skimming Dimension.
TAR.
So what is the GOI? A non-spatial space between dimensions? Egwene can peer into the dreams of people from parallel worlds there (at least, I assume it's parallel worlds rather than mirror worlds, as it seems unlikely that mirror worlds would be so far removed from her own reality).

The Travelling wormholes penetrate a dimension too, though a good mathematician can probably argue that that dimension does not really need to exist.
For One Power Traveling, that makes sense to me, but not so much for True Power Traveling. There is this whole 'outside the Pattern' dimension. :)

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2009, 12:19 PM
Which is why I said it would take a good mathematician. Even a mediocre one like me can handle the ordinary Traveling.

Oh, and the GOI is something I'd forgotten about. Possibly because of Egwene's involvement.

wolframbohr2
12-16-2009, 12:59 PM
We need to get a federal grant and have those string and p-brain people look at this and figure it out. I smell a Nobel in the future.

Marie Curie 7
12-16-2009, 03:26 PM
Lemme see:
Three spatial dimensions. Obvious.
One (at least) go-to-*finn dimension.
One Mirror World dimension, travellable with the Portal Stones.
One Machin Shin dimension. Previously known as the Ways, but now under new ownership.
The Skimming Dimension.
TAR.

There may also be whatever dimension the Blight exists in, since it is apart from the "normal universe".

And a dimension related to vacuoles, perhaps, since they're supposed to be like bubbles in the pattern but outside the pattern...

Crispin's Crispian
12-16-2009, 03:34 PM
So what is the GOI? A non-spatial space between dimensions? Egwene can peer into the dreams of people from parallel worlds there (at least, I assume it's parallel worlds rather than mirror worlds, as it seems unlikely that mirror worlds would be so far removed from her own reality).
If TAR is a dimension, than the GOI a universe within it? Or perhaps the GOI is the space between the TAR dimension and the...um...plot-centric dimension.

Does real physics account for interstitial spaces between parallel universes?

I have this niggling feeling that we're splitting hairs that RJ never intended to grow.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2009, 04:52 PM
The Green Man's garden may have added yet another dimension to the set.

All in all, it seems as though Yuri was quite right to doubt the "seven dimensions" count.

Of course, it is quite possible that in some cases we are dealing with fractal dimensions. At least in the case of the Blight, that seems a good explanation.

wolframbohr2
12-16-2009, 05:49 PM
Could some of these demensions be the same demension, but we see them as different becasue we are seeing them through the eyes of the characters?

For example, if I took an alien and showed them New York city, then blind folded them and showed them Intercourse PA they can easly assume they are different countries.

Daekyras
12-16-2009, 06:04 PM
For what it's worth, I've identified at least 7 different dimensions in the WoT universe and there could be more than 10.

Sephiroth?

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2009, 06:05 PM
It could be, but in that case it should be possible for denizens of one dimension to get to the other, since they're than the same.

And, to name some examples:
Egwene would probably have noticed if Machin Shin had invaded the GOI. She didn't, which suggests that the Ways are a separate dimension.
The Eelfinn and Aelfinn would probably have noticed if they got nosy Wise Ones over the floor all the time. But they didn't tell Mat about that, even though it would have interested him enormously.
The Eye of the World and Ogier Stedding are not reachable from TAR, suggesting that they too are separate dimensions. Which of course adds the Stedding to the list.

wolframbohr2
12-16-2009, 06:22 PM
They might not be able to go from one place in a dimension to an other. I can not walk to Antartica, but it is in the same dimension that I am in.

One could not enter Ruhidean (sp) in TAR either until the fog was lifted. Was that place a different dimmension? If not but cause of the one power can some of those other places be R like in origin, like the Greenman garden or the steddings?

nameless
12-16-2009, 06:40 PM
Lemme see:
Three spatial dimensions. Obvious.
One (at least) go-to-*finn dimension.
One Mirror World dimension, travellable with the Portal Stones.
One Machin Shin dimension. Previously known as the Ways, but now under new ownership.
The Skimming Dimension.
TAR.

That's eight already, not counting time.
The DO may or may not have dimensions of his own.
The souls of dead non-Heroes may have one or more dimensions too.
The Travelling wormholes penetrate a dimension too, though a good mathematician can probably argue that that dimension does not really need to exist.
Then there's time.

There's also whatever dimension separates the True Source from the Pattern. It would make good symmetry if the DO's prison existed in this dimension along the opposite direction as the Source but it's just as likely the prison exists in its own dimension. Traveling bends three dimensions along a fourth, but there's no reason to believe the pivot dimension can't be one of the ones we've already listed such as the Skimming Dimension. There seems to be a pretty big overlap between TAR and the Probability dimension separating the mirror worlds as well as overlap between the Ways and the mirror worlds. I lean towards thinking TAR is its own dimension and the Ways are a subsection of the Probability continuum.

So we've got:
1: Length
2: Width
3: Height
4: Time
5: Probability
6: True Source
7: Skimming
8: Finn
9: Prison (maybe)
10: Ways (maybe)
11: TAR
12: Dream continuum
13: Green Man's garden (maybe)

There could potentially be more depending on if the Eelfinn and Aelfinn are two different dimensions or just two different directions in the same dimension.

from Yuri33:
"You have a serious misunderstanding about the concepts of dimension and universe, even allowing for RJ using poetic license. I would love to hear this list of "7 different dimensions" you have assembled.

And I am a physics dork... "

My original list was smaller because I'd forgotten to include the dream continuum as separate from TAR. A dimension encompasses distance or difference. It's become common for comics and sci-fi movies to use "alternate dimension" and "alternate reality" as interchangeable but they're two different things. Alternate realities are separated from ours by alternate dimensions. As for "alternate universe," there's simply no such thing, because no matter how many of these alternate realities are out there, they're all part of a single universe. The fact that there can only ever be one universe is built in to the definition of the word.

Satisfied?

wolframbohr2
12-16-2009, 07:14 PM
what about the vacules?

nameless
12-16-2009, 09:14 PM
We don't know enough about vacuoles to tell if they're displaced from the prime reality along previously unseen dimension or one of the ones we already know about. Not every subset of reality will have its own dimension; just as it's possible to reach multiple different cities by traveling along a single straight line it should also be possible for multiple realities to exist along a single dimension. Let's call the Vacuole Dimension a possible #14.

Yuri33
12-16-2009, 09:42 PM
My original list was smaller because I'd forgotten to include the dream continuum as separate from TAR. A dimension encompasses distance or difference. It's become common for comics and sci-fi movies to use "alternate dimension" and "alternate reality" as interchangeable but they're two different things. Alternate realities are separated from ours by alternate dimensions. As for "alternate universe," there's simply no such thing, because no matter how many of these alternate realities are out there, they're all part of a single universe. The fact that there can only ever be one universe is built in to the definition of the word.

The term "dimension" has to be more clearly defined.

There is the physics definition of dimension, which refers to a set of orthogonal (i.e., non-interdependent) "features" used to describe an object's position. In our world, this would be 3d-space, and, technically time as well. So the real world (barring string/M theory) is 4d space-time.

In this sense, Randland is also 4d, as well as TAR, parallel worlds, etc. They aren't technically different dimensions, but different worlds. The dimensions within these other worlds may be distorted (time moves faster/slower, spatial "leaping" in TAR, etc.), but there are still technically only 4. The only worlds that might not be 4d in the physics sense are stasis boxes (no temporal dimension) and possibly the GOI (may only have 1 spatial dimension, as distance is more important than any perceived direction).

Then there's the more literary "dimension," referring to alternate/parallel worlds. A cursory search through the main books doesn't reveal this usage of the term, but the BWB makes two references (and only two):

BWB, The Wheel and the Pattern:
Within the influence of this Lace of Ages are not only the earth and stone of the physical world, but other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. The Wheel touches what might be, what might have been and what is. It touches the world of dreams as well as the world of waking.

BWB, The Age of Legends:
There are records of people in the Age even transporting to other worlds, both among the stars and in other dimensions. Portal stones, activated by the One Power, allowed users and any who accompanied them to travel to other dimensions and worlds within the universe of the Wheel. It is doubtful that portal stones were used regularly by any other than Aes Sedai, because skill and strength in the Power were needed to activate them.

So, the many other possibilities mentioned in this thread could reasonably refer to this usage. It's interesting that whenever RJ does use the term "dimension" like this, it's always listed with other synonyms, likely because he doesn't want to confuse his meaning.

It should be noted, however, that RJ distinctly used the more traditional physics definition in the BWB as well:

If the bits of information concerning daily life that have been preserved over the centuries can be believed, even ordinary people had access to a wide variety of technological wonders that seemed to rival the Power itself. It was possible to “live” stories in your own home by some means no longer known, and entertainment also was brought directly into the home through a three-dimensional imaging process. Live or prerecorded programs took on lifelike form right before the viewer. Communications also made use of this process. It was possible, with a code, to contact anyone who had access to a call unit, and to then see that person, or their logo if they wished to preserve privacy, as a small three-dimensional projection. This process created the illusion of being able to talk face-to-face no matter the actual distance involved.

BWB, Moghedien:
Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel’aran’rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear’s, despite the latter’s claim of sovereignty. She never dared confront or challenge Lanfear in the world of flesh, for there she could not hope to match Lanfear’s superior strength.

It's interesting to note in that last quote that while the context is TAR (a dimension in the literary sense), his usage in that last quote was clearly physical (i.e., within it's [4d spacetime] dimensions--plural).

So, among nameless's growing list, the physical dimensions are:
1-3) 3d Space
4) Time
and perhaps:
5) Probability (with most worlds having a fixed, singular probability of unity, and the Mirror worlds having alternative probabilities)

The list of literary dimensions include:
1) Randland
2) TAR
3) GOI (likely having only one spatial and one temporal dimension)
4) Finn worlds
5) Skimming space
6) Ways
...and probably many others.

So let's not confuse the two uses of "dimension" by throwing them in the same list.

nameless
12-17-2009, 01:44 AM
Yeah, that does cause some ambiguity.

When I referred to the Finn dimension I meant the direction along which someone would have to travel in order to reach Finnland, since it's separated from the normal world by a distance that can't be expressed by back and forth, left and right, up and down, or before and after. Likewise for TAR, DO's prison, etc. Everything on my list was intended to be a physical dimension, but I can see how naming them after literary dimensions could cause confusion. I named them that way in my head because the existence of the literary dimension, ie the World of Dreams or the Gap of Infinity or what have you, is what allows us to infer the existence of a physical dimension leading to it.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2009, 04:40 AM
In this sense, Randland is also 4d, as well as TAR, parallel worlds, etc. They aren't technically different dimensions, but different worlds. The dimensions within these other worlds may be distorted (time moves faster/slower, spatial "leaping" in TAR, etc.), but there are still technically only 4. The only worlds that might not be 4d in the physics sense are stasis boxes (no temporal dimension) and possibly the GOI (may only have 1 spatial dimension, as distance is more important than any perceived direction).But those mirror world lie in an extra dimension, on top of (or below) the real one.

Think of it as pages in a book. Each page can be seen as a two dimensional surface, so for the individual letters, it seems a 2-D environment. But the pages are stacked on top of each other, requiring a third dimension to make that make sense.

The same is the case with the mirror worlds and the real world, though there it isn't as easy to visualise, because most people aren't capable of seeing in more than three spatial dimensions*.

* Too few eyes, for starters. Makes one wonder how many dimensions a spider perceives.

Spasmodean
12-17-2009, 08:15 PM
Personally I do think Slayer is a construct.
I also think Padan Fain would be a construct as well.

GonzoTheGreat
12-18-2009, 04:21 AM
I doubt it, frankly. All the constructs that we actually know about were the products of advanced AS technology. Aginor was one of the foremost experts in that, and he simply continued his experiments under Shadow management.

Both Slayer and Fain, on the other hand, are the products of DO interference, with possibly some additions made by a severely hampered Ishamael, who was definitely not an expert in this area.
So I would think that the differences would be far bigger than the similarities (if there are any relevant ones at all).

wolframbohr2
12-18-2009, 04:44 AM
I came up with a reason why, its not a good one, but it is a reason.

Contructs are not natural, they are alive by the OP. They were created by the use of the OP and some how it is what makes them alive, even though some can breed, the OP is still invovled. Why dont we see any weaves? Well, some tar'angreal we see weaves when they work (Bowl of winds), others we don't (TAR rings) anyway that can be an other discussion. Now, when a gateway is formed two differnt parts of reality are "connected" Ok i am tiered and can't think of a better description, but bear with me. When you go through you jump from one part of reality to an other. (like going from 0,0,0 to 100,100,100). When a construct does this there is a momentary "severing" of the OP and they die. It is like a dropped cell phone call when you transfere from one tower to the next.

Hope this makes ssence, I have been up for almost 48hrs grrrr.

GonzoTheGreat
12-18-2009, 04:57 AM
It makes sense, apart from the (rather inconvenient) detail that constructs (Trollocs and Myrddraal, at least) can enter Stedding. According to your theory, that should kill them immediately, but it doesn't.

wolframbohr2
12-18-2009, 05:19 AM
Hmmm, that is true. However, i do have a theory on that that i am trying to think if there is any mention in the books. Can a Tar'angrel that does not need channeling be used in a stedding?

Or

With a stedding the OP is still there. But with a gateway, there is an infimitazmal (sp?) space between the 2 points of reality. It is that small "gap" that has no OP in it and severss the life of constructs.

wolframbohr2
12-18-2009, 05:35 AM
I thought of an other way, that is very simular.

When a ship hooks up to electric at the port, they need to put there electric power in phase with the shore power. (remember we use AC) If not bad things happen. Jumping frmo one point to the next with a gateway is like being out of phase and BAMM death happens.

I know what you will say, we have people channeling as they go through gateways. But what if the act of channeling "buffers" or puts them in phase automatically, where as constructs have no way of putting them in phase. This fits more with the "tolerate" language RJ used.

And i thought of a Tar'angrle that is used in a "stedding" The locator in Far Madding.

dukescott
12-19-2009, 04:07 AM
The terangrel in Far Madding causes the stedding affect. It isn't used in a steading. Very different.

It does pose the question though of whether or not the terangrel wells would work in a stedding the same way they work in Far Madding. My guess would be yes but I don't have any evidence for that other than they worked in Far Madding.

Weird Harold
12-19-2009, 04:17 AM
It does pose the question though of whether or not the terangrel wells would work in a stedding ...

IIRC, the answer to your question is in Terez' signature link -- surprisingly, RJ didn't RAFO it.

wolframbohr2
12-19-2009, 04:56 AM
The terangrel in Far Madding causes the stedding affect. It isn't used in a steading. Very different.

It does pose the question though of whether or not the terangrel wells would work in a stedding the same way they work in Far Madding. My guess would be yes but I don't have any evidence for that other than they worked in Far Madding.

Yes i know FM is not a stedding, hence the stedding in quoates. But Ter'angreal only do one thing. One ter'angreal causes the stedding effect. An other does the locating part when someone channels. It is the locator part that I am interested in since it works in a "stedding". The question then comes how close is FM to a real stedding? We only know from what the characters tell us and it seem identical whith respect to channeling.

Now, if the TA in FM is one TA, then it is doing more than 1 thing and it means there can be other TA that can do 1 thing. It could also look like 1 TA, but be "pieces" that fit together to make it look like 1 thing.

From the readings, to me it seems like it is 3 TA, one that does Saidar, one that does Saidin and one that does the locating. The reason I think there is 2 for the steeding effect is that there is different ranges, 1 for men, and an other for women for the effect, atleast from what I remember, I could be entierly wrong, which is 99.99% of the time.

However, none of this matters with my "phase" theory on why they can't use gateways.

hippie-joe
12-19-2009, 10:31 AM
no just no just no just no.

Machin Shin proves the Dark One gets the ways because it kills his troops?



this means nothing. it makes the ways like the blight. shadow spawn kill shadow spawn all the time in the blight. infact the DO is all about chaos it doesn't matter whether it's on the side of the light or dark. i never said machin shin is a servant of the DO just that it is of the DO which means the DO controls it through the chaos machin shin brings to the table... just as the DO controls the blight. or are you saying the DO doesn't control the blight either?

hippie-joe
12-19-2009, 10:51 AM
The Green Man's garden may have added yet another dimension to the set.

All in all, it seems as though Yuri was quite right to doubt the "seven dimensions" count.

Of course, it is quite possible that in some cases we are dealing with fractal dimensions. At least in the case of the Blight, that seems a good explanation.

what about where the ogier come from? where ever that book of theirs takes them, aren't the stedding some kind of overlapping of the place?

nameless
12-19-2009, 10:55 AM
We don't actually know for sure what the Black Wind is. The Aes Sedai who talk about it offer the same two possible explanations: either it's some kind of shadowspawn or it's a parasite that grew out of the taint on the Ways. However, that's hardly definitive coming from the same author who wrote "if your enemy offers you two targets, strike a third."

Jokeslayer
12-19-2009, 11:06 AM
this means nothing. it makes the ways like the blight. shadow spawn kill shadow spawn all the time in the blight. infact the DO is all about chaos it doesn't matter whether it's on the side of the light or dark. i never said machin shin is a servant of the DO just that it is of the DO which means the DO controls it through the chaos machin shin brings to the table... just as the DO controls the blight. or are you saying the DO doesn't control the blight either?

You make no sense. How does the DO control Machin Shin? He/it doesn't. The chaos it creates may serve the DO's ends, but that doesn't mean that the DO controls it. The DO doesn't control Rand, yet it's quite likely some of the things Rand has done have served the DO'e ends too.

I don't even think that Machin Shin really does create chaos. It makes the ways much harder to use effectively, but that isn't really chaotic, is it?

Look at trollocs. Yes, they'll kill each other. But when a myrdraal gets involved, they do what they're told. That's why they can be used as part of an army. Machin Shin has never been observed to do what it's told by the DO (possibly what Fain told it, but possibly not, either way not the Dark One). The Dark One controls neither Machin Shin nor the Ways.

Marie Curie 7
12-19-2009, 11:39 AM
We don't actually know for sure what the Black Wind is. The Aes Sedai who talk about it offer the same two possible explanations: either it's some kind of shadowspawn or it's a parasite that grew out of the taint on the Ways. However, that's hardly definitive coming from the same author who wrote "if your enemy offers you two targets, strike a third."

We know from the Creator.

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Q: About Machin Shin in the Ways: since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard them as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

RJ: It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways, and the Talisman of Growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but its definitely on the evil side.

Q: Would it be cleaned with the cleansing of saidin?

RJ: No. It's like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless its feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.


DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Q: In The Great Hunt, when Rand, Mat and Perrin are trying to enter the Ways, Machin Shin is waiting there for them. It seems like Padan Fain has it waiting there for them. Is Machin Shin in any way related to the evil of Shadar Logoth?

RJ: In some ways. Machin Shin is linked, or you might say drawn, to that. It's not a matter of linked, but more attracted by, in much the same ways as I spoke about the evils being attracted to one another due to opposite polarities. (Shadar Logoth and the taint) In the same way there is an attraction because Machin Shin was created in effect by the taint. It grew out. You can see it as a fungus that was constructed with the wrong type of materials. If you think about it as that way you get a better idea about its true nature.

Tirade
12-20-2009, 01:57 AM
I always assumed that the Black Wind grew from the taint of Shadar Logoth. Somehow the evil of the city seeped into the ways from the waygate there.

The only proof i can offer of this is that Fain can communicate and command the black wind - no shadowspawn or forsaken has that ability.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

NO one has yet attempted to resolve the problem I brought up earlier:

The ways were created AFTER the War of Power - grown for the Ogier to pass safely between steading. Those mages who created the Ways should have known full well that shadowspawn could not survive a gateway - yet they OMITTED that bit of magic from the waygates? That is ponderous. Especially since the whole point of the ways was to provide safe passage.

How is passing through a gateway into the Ways dimension safe for a trolloc, but passing through any other type of gateway means instant death?

wolframbohr2
12-20-2009, 02:17 AM
MS might not be able to consume Fain. Fain is something compleatly new, he is an amalgam of different evils. He is greater than the sum of his parts.

The gateways into the ways could be something compleatly different than the Traveling Gateways. Even if the weaves are simular, there might be enough differnece that allows the trollocs to travel through them. The AS may have no choice when they made the ways to make them the way they are. It could be that the gates are "alive", that they themselves are constructs and that is what makes it safe for the shadowspawn to use them.

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2009, 05:45 AM
The ways were created AFTER the War of Power - grown for the Ogier to pass safely between steading. Those mages who created the Ways should have known full well that shadowspawn could not survive a gateway - yet they OMITTED that bit of magic from the waygates? That is ponderous. Especially since the whole point of the ways was to provide safe passage.The passage was supposed to be safe from the effects of the Breaking, and that was achieved.
At the time the Ways were made, it may not have been known that there were any Shadowspawn left at all. Communications were very spotty and unreliable.
Furthermore, it is difficult to say how much knowledge those men still had. They obviously were more competent than the current AS, but they may already have lacked a lot of information that had been available in the AOL. They had been taught by men who were going insane, who had been taught by men going insane, who ...

nameless
12-20-2009, 11:18 AM
I always assumed that the Black Wind grew from the taint of Shadar Logoth. Somehow the evil of the city seeped into the ways from the waygate there.

The only proof i can offer of this is that Fain can communicate and command the black wind - no shadowspawn or forsaken has that ability.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

NO one has yet attempted to resolve the problem I brought up earlier:

The ways were created AFTER the War of Power - grown for the Ogier to pass safely between steading. Those mages who created the Ways should have known full well that shadowspawn could not survive a gateway - yet they OMITTED that bit of magic from the waygates? That is ponderous. Especially since the whole point of the ways was to provide safe passage.

How is passing through a gateway into the Ways dimension safe for a trolloc, but passing through any other type of gateway means instant death?

I made the same assumption about the Shadar Logoth/Machin Shin connection before reading the relevant quote from RJ. Maybe there were some Aridhol refugees among the souls Machin Shin has consumed and that's why it responds to Fain, or maybe it just recognizes him as a natural leader for everything that's evil and hopelessly insane.

As for why the Ways don't kill Shadowspawn the way Gateways would, it could be a deliberate omission. Not all constructs were evil and if the Ways killed trollocs they'd also kill Nym, chora trees, etc.

Marie Curie 7
12-20-2009, 11:56 AM
I always assumed that the Black Wind grew from the taint of Shadar Logoth. Somehow the evil of the city seeped into the ways from the waygate there.

The only proof i can offer of this is that Fain can communicate and command the black wind - no shadowspawn or forsaken has that ability.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Did you read the quotes in the post just above yours? Machin Shin grew like a fungus on the Ways as a result of the taint on saidin, since saidin was used in the creation of the Ways.

And Machin Shin is drawn to Fain as a result of the same attraction between evils that Rand relied upon to cleanse the taint on saidin. In this case, the evil of Shadar Logoth (Fain) and the evil of the taint (Machin Shin) are attracted to one another.

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2009, 12:05 PM
So if Rand grows a Waygate in the Pit of Doom, Machin Shin will crawl out of it (as it already tried to do in TGH) and devour the DO, leaving the Ways clean again.
Neat.

Marie Curie 7
12-20-2009, 12:12 PM
So if Rand grows a Waygate in the Pit of Doom, Machin Shin will crawl out of it (as it already tried to do in TGH) and devour the DO, leaving the Ways clean again.
Neat.

And how exactly would that correspond to two opposite evils attracting one another? :confused:

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2009, 01:15 PM
I think that I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. :p

Whoever tries to answer this may use the fact that Padan Fain's evil (which is that of Shadar Logoth) is opposite to the DO's, while Machin Shin seemed to feel a similarity to Fain (or vice versa).