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Daekyras
12-14-2009, 06:32 PM
"I'm tired of walking into trap unprepared. I plan to take command of my own destiny, stop running from problem to problem. It's time to be in charge."

"And you do that with..."

"Elaborate aliases with backstories"


Ok, this is just a random bit of musing. I enjoyed this chapter. I enjoyed the overall Mat strand in this book. After crossroads of twilight I even wrote a theory called Mat-the books saving grace. I'm a huge Mat fan.

However, That whole passage of dialogue is very un-Mat IMO. I think it is a good example of the change in author and the change in style. Even more so then the name of a certain new warder...

The problm is that it reads like something Silk would say in an Eddings book and I find it...out of place.

Anyone agree?

kivo
12-14-2009, 06:49 PM
I liked it, but I liked Mat in tGS overall, so I am not the type of person you are trying to appeal to with this thread.

Daekyras
12-14-2009, 06:52 PM
I liked it, but I liked Mat in tGS overall

Wait, thats pretty much what my first sentence says...

wolframbohr2
12-14-2009, 07:31 PM
I don't find it out of place at all. Matt has had a big shock to the system, he got married. He just grew up big time with out him realizing it. Out sweet "innocent" lil boy is now a man. Well anyway, Mat wants to be like he once was. As we know, men thik with the hair on their chests (even in real life), Mat is behaving like men realy do. Don't beelive me, take a look at any man, be it young or old, trying to reclaim their youth. They do and act well, odd at times. Mat is just acting like your uncle Walter when he reminises about duck and cover drills.

Daekyras
12-14-2009, 07:48 PM
Mat is just acting like your uncle Walter when he reminises about duck and cover drills.

I don't see it that way at all. Mat was always a complex character but no way is he trying to recapture lost youth. he's what? 20? The stuff where he talks about womanising etc. might be him rebelling against his marriage but I'm not talking about that. I enjoyed them and found them very Matesque.

I'm just referring to the complete passage I quoted from earlier. It dosn't read like WoT to me. I don't mean this as an attack on BS in any way. I really enjoyed the book. Just this scene in particular...jars...with me.

Also, mat can't be like Uncle Walter cause he's never flown to Baghdad in a magical armchair:cool:

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2009, 04:01 AM
To be honest, it sounds like yet another of Mat's cunning plans which cannot fail.

Does he still have the badger he started TEOTW with? It would be awesome if he won Tarmon Gai'don by setting that loose in the Pit Of Doom.

Jokeslayer
12-15-2009, 06:04 AM
Of course parts of the book read differently to what we've been reading in the other books. It's written by a different guy who said he wasn't going to try to mimic RJ's style.

Daekyras
12-15-2009, 06:24 AM
Of course parts of the book read differently to what we've been reading in the other books. It's written by a different guy who said he wasn't going to try to mimic RJ's style.

I know that- Again I'm not insulting the author and I appreciate this book a great deal.

I'm asking if anyone else found this bit to be a little out of place. A little too-non WoT.

Ishara
12-15-2009, 07:53 AM
If you have time you should go back a bit and try to find the Mat threads.

Yes, others agreed with you.

Personally, I had no such problem - but, others did.

Gilshalos Sedai
12-15-2009, 08:27 AM
Tonally, it's out of place with Matt. Characterization-wise, it's perfectly in tune.

TCIndiana
12-15-2009, 09:33 AM
My oldest brother would probably agree that it was out of place (but then, he tends to be a cynic.) personally I thought BS (why do I feel weird typing those initials?) did an excellent job keeping everyone in character, I read TGS expecting a few differences.
To me it seems to fit okay with Mat's character. What bugged me more in TGS was a couple phrases that RJ most definitely wouldn't have used (hunker down, rile up, those seem non-WOT to me. But those are small, forgivable things.)

wolframbohr2
12-15-2009, 09:42 AM
If men did not act odd at times, then every one of them in Randland would be doing as they are told by their wives or the women's circles. TG would be settled in 5 min and some Wisdom would have the DO plowing a field. Would make for a very short and boring sory.

Neilbert
12-15-2009, 08:30 PM
The whole section read like Mat had been replaced by a look a like who had only heard what Mat was like, (mostly from Nynaeve) and who had never actually met the guy.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2009, 03:41 AM
The whole section read like Mat had been replaced by a look a like who had only heard what Mat was like, (mostly from Nynaeve) and who had never actually met the guy.Which could be an entirely predictable effect of marriage, you know.

I mean, the only reason why Perrin hasn't been affected in the same manner is that Faile always does precisely as he says without bothering him about his mannerisms.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-16-2009, 08:33 AM
I believe BS was quoted from a book signing as saying he always found Mat's character to be quite funny (and witty). I completely agree with that statement and found it a natural progression in his character. Not so much the marriage thing (geez, boys always blame MARRIAGE!) but the cause/effect of his ever changing life now. He KNOWS he is a good "General" now, and to a point he has accepted that. He is trying to act more like what he THINKS a leader should be...but he is doing it in a very, very "Mat" sort of way. The memories of all those folks in his head are one thing, but his own life experiences and thoughts play a big part. The Mat that loosed the badger, the Mat that stole pies, the Mat that wanted an adventure...that is the Mat that thinks elaborate backstories are the answer.

I liked it, I thought it fit, but yes I thought it was (at least in part) due to BS taking over the helm here.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2009, 08:36 AM
geez, boys always blame MARRIAGE!And girls never ever believe it. Might there possibly be a pattern in there, somewhere? Or perhaps even a Pattern? :p

Gilshalos Sedai
12-16-2009, 12:12 PM
Totally agree with you, SBC. I think Sanderson revived a flagging Matt who was beginning to get whiney.

Trutino
12-16-2009, 01:01 PM
I believe BS was quoted from a book signing as saying he always found Mat's character to be quite funny (and witty). I completely agree with that statement and found it a natural progression in his character. Not so much the marriage thing (geez, boys always blame MARRIAGE!) but the cause/effect of his ever changing life now. He KNOWS he is a good "General" now, and to a point he has accepted that. He is trying to act more like what he THINKS a leader should be...but he is doing it in a very, very "Mat" sort of way. The memories of all those folks in his head are one thing, but his own life experiences and thoughts play a big part. The Mat that loosed the badger, the Mat that stole pies, the Mat that wanted an adventure...that is the Mat that thinks elaborate backstories are the answer.

I liked it, I thought it fit, but yes I thought it was (at least in part) due to BS taking over the helm here.


I agree pretty strongly with SBC above. There's a sort of firm, resolute quality to the desperate grasping for familiarity Mat does in tGS that I really enjoyed. As others have pointed out, he's dealing with his marriage, his status as a general, and his position as Prince of an entire continent. Yet, because he's Mat, he is desperately trying to put his fingers in his ears and say "la la la, I can't hear you." The people around him smile because they know exactly what he's doing and are curious to see how long he can keep it up. I for one, would have been disappointed if Mat hadn't had to struggle with his identity in tGS. We'll never know how RJ would have portrayed "awkward transitional" Mat, but BS's version was wonderful in its own right.

Crispin's Crispian
12-16-2009, 02:29 PM
Totally agree with you, SBC. I think Sanderson revived a flagging Matt who was beginning to get whiney.

This is as good a summation about it as I can imagine. Yes, to me, Mat's character and dialog were too witty and comical, and felt a little forced. Mat is sarcastic, but doesn't make clever jokes like that.

Still, it works within the story because Mat had been going the Rand route. It works, but I also noticed it, FWIW.

Daekyras
12-16-2009, 05:08 PM
This is as good a summation about it as I can imagine. Yes, to me, Mat's character and dialog were too witty and comical, and felt a little forced. Mat is sarcastic, but doesn't make clever jokes like that.

Still, it works within the story because Mat had been going the Rand route. It works, but I also noticed it, FWIW.

You have managed to voice what was in my head. I thank you :)

Now, lets hope BS can help Perrin in aMoL....:D:D

greatwolf
12-16-2009, 06:32 PM
a lot happened in tGS, and we may find by the end that Mat had more than the wedding to thank for his odd behaviour. All of our taveren are changing in rather dramatic ways. Not much happened in perrin's arc, but we still got to know that Perrin's changing too.

That said, we've always known that the differences would be there. RJ was soldier, a vet of fighting in third world setting, a historian, physicist, hunter and middle aged author. BS is different. Hunting up the differences won't change anything and mostly, they don't really matter.

I am convinced BS will do his best on the books, however many he writes. But whether we'll enjoy them as much... well that's a matter of taste, i think.

Frenzy
12-20-2009, 09:30 PM
it stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Mat is a gambler and doesn't do well with elaborate thought-out plans (battle strategies excluded, of course). His luck runs well when sheer randomness reigns, and he trusts his luck implicitly. Though Mandevwin's line on page 535 about going back to his great-aunt was hysterical.

GonzoTheGreat
12-21-2009, 04:10 AM
On the other hand, Mat did start out the first book making elaborate plans involving a badger (once again: does he still have it with him?), which Rand expected to somehow go rather wrong through no fault of Mat's. So in this sense, he hasn't changed much after all.
The only difference is that he now has the skill to snatch victory from defeat, instead of being paddled by Nynaeve.

Mat's assault on the Stone was also a case of making elaborate plans, and then doing something else entirely. He'd planned to use the fireworks as a way of drawing attention to where he wasn't going to be, so that sneaking in would be easier.

His running away from Ebou Dar as slowly as he could, with a made up story about him and Egeanin being lovers, also fits the pattern.

He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage.

Daekyras
12-21-2009, 04:56 AM
He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage.

Hilarious. I love it, check my sign...

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 04:59 AM
I agree with Gonzo, (GAH, lightning is gonna strike me) but also, this is the first time that Mat has specifics of someone looking for him and him wanting to confront them. When it's your own neck, you tend to go over the top.

Yes, I know people have been after Mat before, and you had the DO/Ishi looking for him in the 1st book. But all the other times he knew it was in general that people were looking for him. Not someone specificaly. This time around he knows specifics. The danger reached a personal level instead of being the general I am in danger level.

Mat like chances, but it is chances that he takes. He does not like to rely on the chances of others. He is fine with him rolling the dice, but not so much when others do (yea i know the town, be he rationalized the mayor tossing) When his life is in other peoples hands he does not like it, cause his luck may not hold. He knows this and would want to eleviat as much chance with other people, thus the elaborate back stories. Would he realy trust thos other men who go into town with coming up with back stories on the spot? With the exception of Thom, probably not.

Which in someways is kinda funny, cause in tEotW, he had to be shut up by the others for his stories about the trolloc attack in to rivers.

Basically, I think he does not want to take the chance of other being like him or him in the past. He knows what hot water he got in with just him screwing up, and does not want his neck in danger from others being like "Mat".

Gah, i am rambling, i hope i get the jist of my point across.

Gilshalos Sedai
12-21-2009, 08:07 AM
it stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Mat is a gambler and doesn't do well with elaborate thought-out plans (battle strategies excluded, of course). His luck runs well when sheer randomness reigns, and he trusts his luck implicitly. Though Mandevwin's line on page 535 about going back to his great-aunt was hysterical.

I disagree, near-sis. The phrasing was not Mat-like, I'll give you that. But "elaborate backstories" are what he does. Apparently, he's still fighting his luck. Which is what Mat also does.

Frenzy
12-21-2009, 01:19 PM
I disagree, near-sis. The phrasing was not Mat-like, I'll give you that. But "elaborate backstories" are what he does. Apparently, he's still fighting his luck. Which is what Mat also does.
I'm basing my argument on this quote:The Dragon Reborn CHAPTER: 49 - A Storm in Tear
"It's the luck," Mat mumbled. "I've figured it out. The dice. My luck works best when things are . . . random. Like dice. Not much good for cards. No good at stones. Too much pattern. It has to be random. Even finding Comar. I'd stopped visiting every inn. I walked into that one by chance. Thom, if I am going to find Egwene and the others in time, I have to look without any pattern."
To me, elaborate backstories sounds too much like a pattern, a plan to me. Mat falls back on elaborate backstories. He doesn't lay them out in full detail first.

Usually.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2009, 02:57 AM
Mat did not want to depend on luck unless it was necessary when he might be about to meet a Forsaken.

He didn't know who was looking for him, but he did know already that at least some of the Forsaken had noticed him.

And, of course, it is also possible that he remembered the gholam, who had quite a bit of luck of his own.

Those back stories were like the planning for a military engagement. In battle, Mat may depend on his luck if he really has to, but he definitely prefers to outwit his opponent and thus take luck entirely out of the calculations.

Gilshalos Sedai
12-22-2009, 07:44 AM
He's still not entirely comfortable relying on his luck in all cases.

Terez
12-25-2009, 11:29 PM
I'm basing my argument on this quote:
To me, elaborate backstories sounds too much like a pattern, a plan to me. Mat falls back on elaborate backstories. He doesn't lay them out in full detail first.

Usually.
True. Here is an example:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 46 - A Message out of the Shadow

Light, Mat thought, will nothing put her in a good mood? He decided he was just going to have to say it out, but he wished she did not look as if she meant to cut someone's head off. "My Queen, by chance I overheard "

"Be silent, boy," the dark man in the gold-encrusted coat said calmly. He was a handsome man, almost as good-looking as Galad and nearly as youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples, but built on a bigger scale, with more than Rand's height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders. "We will hear what you have to say in a moment." He reached over Morgase's shoulder and plucked the letter out of her hand. Her glare turned on him Mat could see her temper heating but the dark man laid a strong hand on her shoulder, never taking his eyes off what he was reading, and Morgase's anger melted. "It seems she has left the Tower again," he said. "On the service of the Amyrlin Seat. The woman oversteps herself again, Morgase."

Mat had no trouble holding his tongue. Luck. It was stuck to the roof of his mouth. Sometimes I don't know if it's good or bad. The dark man was the owner of the deep voice, the "Great Master" who wanted Elayne's head. She called him Gaebril. Her advisor wants to murder Elayne? Light! And Morgase was staring up at him like an adoring dog with her master's hand on her shoulder.

Gaebril turned nearly black eyes on Mat. The man had a forceful gaze, and a look of knowing. "What can you tell us of this, boy?"

"Nothing... uh... my Lord." Mat cleared his throat; the man's stare was worse than the Amyrlin's. "I went to Tar Valon to see my sister. She's a novice. Else Grinwell. I'm Thom Grinwell, my Lord. The Lady Elayne learned I was meaning to see Caemlyn on my way back home I'm from Comfrey, my Lord; a little village north of Baerlon; I'd never seen any place bigger than Baerlon before I went to Tar Valon and she the Lady Elayne, I mean gave me that letter to bring." He thought Morgase had glanced at him when he said he came from north of Baerlon, but he knew there was a village called Comfrey there; he remembered hearing it mentioned.

Gaebril nodded, but he said, "Do you know where Elayne was going, boy? Or on what business? Speak the truth, and you have nothing to fear. Lie, and you will be put to the question."

Mat did not have to pretend a worried frown. "My Lord, I only saw the Daughter-Heir the once. She gave me the letter and a gold mark! and told me to bring it to the Queen. I know no more of what is in it than I've heard here." Gaebril appeared to consider it, with no sign on that dark face of whether he believed a word or not.
That was a semi-elaborate backstory which Mat came up with on the spot.