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One Armed Gimp
12-21-2009, 09:15 AM
The more I think on it, the more I realize that Callandor still has a decent sized role to play. I hate admitting that, mostly because I prefer a 3 ta'veren solution to "3 become 1" question and it appears more and more that Callandor may be the answer.

Couple of questions always come to mind though when thinking of Callandor:

1. Who will wield it at TG? I think we have sufficient evidence to argue there is a chance Jahar will, given that he is more than likely the one to "follow after".

2. If Rand wields it, who will link with him? My money has always been on Moiraine as soon as the flaw was brought up. Alivia would make an excellent second woman.

3. Can Callandor protect from all flows of the power or just Balefire? Given that Callandor was wrought during the War of Power, I think it plausible that it would defend against all manner of one power attacks. What about True Power attacks?

Callandor seems like the ultimate weapon, given its defense and offense abilities. And while I do not like Callandor as the answer to the "3 become 1" puzzle, I doubt that the Min Caddy conversation is there as a red herring, so it has some role to play.

Any body have any thoughts or theories on Callandor?

GonzoTheGreat
12-21-2009, 10:02 AM
1. Who will wield it at TG? I think we have sufficient evidence to argue there is a chance Jahar will, given that he is more than likely the one to "follow after".Demandred, of course.

That'll be quite a surprise for Rand, when he leads Cadsuane's army of ancient AS into battle.

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 10:56 AM
3. Can Callandor protect from all flows of the power or just Balefire? Given that Callandor was wrought during the War of Power, I think it plausible that it would defend against all manner of one power attacks. What about True Power attacks?

Callandor seems like the ultimate weapon, given its defense and offense abilities. And while I do not like Callandor as the answer to the "3 become 1" puzzle, I doubt that the Min Caddy conversation is there as a red herring, so it has some role to play.

Any body have any thoughts or theories on Callandor?

I am not so sure that Callandor, it's self, was the cause of the balefire defense. I lean more towards something Rand did while holding it. Remember he had to 'flare' the power when he deflected balefire with it. I always felt it was something he did himself, not so much an inherent property of the sword.

Bonzi77
12-21-2009, 11:20 AM
I lean more towards Elayne and Aviendha as the two women, just because they're the only two Rand trusts enough to surrender control. Of course if one or both are pregnant with his children at the time, I can see him not allowing it or them not being able, which opens up a lot of possibilities.

One Armed Gimp
12-21-2009, 11:35 AM
I am not so sure that Callandor, it's self, was the cause of the balefire defense. I lean more towards something Rand did while holding it. Remember he had to 'flare' the power when he deflected balefire with it. I always felt it was something he did himself, not so much an inherent property of the sword.

I believe it was more a combination of the two. I can not see just any sword splitting the flow of Balefire like that. Maybe any sa'angreal perhaps. For now though, its apparent that with Callandor, one can deflect Balefire.

I lean more towards Elayne and Aviendha as the two women, just because they're the only two Rand trusts enough to surrender control. Of course if one or both are pregnant with his children at the time, I can see him not allowing it or them not being able, which opens up a lot of possibilities.

I doubt it. As you pointed out one or both would be preggers. I am going both, I don't think Elayne can pop those kids out until very near the end of the Age and Avi will be knocked up by then. Even if they are not I doubt Rand would let them as he would think it unsafe. Min's insistence that Rand would fail without Moiraine gives some weight to her being one of the two imo.

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 12:11 PM
I believe it was more a combination of the two. I can not see just any sword splitting the flow of Balefire like that. Maybe any sa'angreal perhaps. For now though, its apparent that with Callandor, one can deflect Balefire.

Or perhaps any object so long as you use the power in the same way Rand did with Callandor, though I doubt it. I don't think Rand could deflect balefire with just any old object, but perhaps any power-wrought blade coupled with the way Rand flared the power. Though I lean more towards this being something Rand (or someone else) can do with Callandor, rather than Rand and some random object.

Weird Harold
12-21-2009, 02:45 PM
Or perhaps any object so long as you use the power in the same way Rand did with Callandor, though I doubt it. I don't think Rand could deflect balefire with just any old object, but perhaps any power-wrought blade coupled with the way Rand flared the power. Though I lean more towards this being something Rand (or someone else) can do with Callandor, rather than Rand and some random object.
I suspect splittng the balefire beam was more afunction of available power than what was providing the power. IOW, Rand could have duplicated the feat with the CK, and possibly with any sa'angreal. The minor detail of the balfire splitting on Callandor's edge is an illusion caused by Rand reflexively making a blocking motion with the "sword" he had in his hands while focusing the balefire splitting weave in the same reflexive impulse.

Given sufficient power, any object could serve as the focus for the weave and appear to be what split a balfire beam.

FWIW, I think Callandor and the CK provide much more power than is required to split a balfire beam, but I suspect that even Rand doesn't have enough strength to do it without some sort of angreal.

One Armed Gimp
12-21-2009, 03:16 PM
I suspect splittng the balefire beam was more afunction of available power than what was providing the power. IOW, Rand could have duplicated the feat with the CK, and possibly with any sa'angreal. The minor detail of the balfire splitting on Callandor's edge is an illusion caused by Rand reflexively making a blocking motion with the "sword" he had in his hands while focusing the balefire splitting weave in the same reflexive impulse.

Given sufficient power, any object could serve as the focus for the weave and appear to be what split a balfire beam.

FWIW, I think Callandor and the CK provide much more power than is required to split a balfire beam, but I suspect that even Rand doesn't have enough strength to do it without some sort of angreal.

If that were the case I think Balefire would have been a much less scary thing in the War of Power. I also believe the Forsaken would be clamoring for angreal whatever the cost. Anyone of them could have sneaked into the WT and grabbed some. However, we have good reason to believe that they have not found many if any at all and that are not that worried about it.

Weird Harold
12-21-2009, 03:50 PM
If that were the case I think Balefire would have been a much less scary thing in the War of Power. I also believe the Forsaken would be clamoring for angreal whatever the cost. Anyone of them could have sneaked into the WT and grabbed some. However, we have good reason to believe that they have not found many if any at all and that are not that worried about it.
There were very few sa'angreal as powerful as Callandor in the AOL and only two more powerful. All of the male Forsaken coveted Cllandor and the Male CK -- perhaps because the amount of power required to block/divert Balefire or perhaps just beccause they're greedy.

There is also the possibility (probability?) that spliting Balefire is one of the "something new" weaves That the Third Agers keep coming up with to do things "everyone" in the AOL "knew" were impossible.

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 07:08 PM
While Callandor is referred to as a "crystal" sword, I doubt its constructed of mundane crystal. I think the balefire was split because of whatever Callandor is rather than any weave Rand my have subconsciously used. There's just no evidence for such a weave, old or new.

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 07:47 PM
There was no evidence of a weave to heal stilling until it was done.

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 08:50 PM
Yes, but there was evidence for a weave when stilling was actually Healed. We really can't say the same for when balefire was actually deflected:

TDR, What is Written in Prophecy:
As if to answer him, a blazing shaft like the one Moiraine had made shot out of the shadows among the columns, straight toward his chest. His wrist twisted the sword instinctively; it was instinct as much as anything else that made him loose flows from saidin into Callandor, a flood of the Power that made the sword blaze brighter even than that bar streaking at him. His uncertain balance between existence and destruction wavered. Surely that torrent would consume him.
The shaft of light struck the blade of Callandor and parted on its edge, forking to stream past on either side. He felt his coat singe from its near passage, smelled the wool beginning to burn. Behind him, the two prongs of frozen fire, of liquid light, struck huge redstone columns; where they struck, stone ceased to exist, and the burning bars bored through to other columns, severing those instantaneously as well. The Heart of the Stone rumbled as columns fell and shattered in clouds of dust, sprays of stone fragments. What fell into the light, however, simply was not, anymore.

While the term "flows" implies weaving, the full context here makes me lean towards him simply drawing on saidin deeply through Callandor rather than actually weaving anything: "Surely that torrent would consume him."

Bonzi77
12-21-2009, 09:02 PM
Yes, but there was evidence for a weave when stilling was actually Healed. We really can't say the same for when balefire was actually deflected:



While the term "flows" implies weaving, the full context here makes me lean towards him simply drawing on saidin deeply through Callandor rather than actually weaving anything: "Surely that torrent would consume him."


See, I have the exact opposite interpretation of that passage. To me, that makes it clear that it was something Rand had to do into Callandor to deflect the balefire. It's very unspecific, but that's not uncommon from the early days of Rand's channeling.

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 09:24 PM
At this point in the plot, Rand can not tell weaves apart or even tell what flow is what. Sure he is good in fire and can duplicate what he does, but it was not until Asmodean teachings that he starts describing what and how he does stuff the way other AS do. Rand is like someone who plays music by ear and not know how it is writen or constructed. Asmodean (ironically) teaches him the method and writting of the music.

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 10:49 PM
It's also the first time he's ever used an *angreal, and given the increased glow of Callandor (which happens when someone pulls deeply through it) and the "torrent" comment, I'm thinking his primitive description of what he's doing is simply drawing deeply on the Power rather than weaving it into anything.

Bonzi77
12-22-2009, 07:09 AM
It's also the first time he's ever used an *angreal, and given the increased glow of Callandor (which happens when someone pulls deeply through it) and the "torrent" comment, I'm thinking his primitive description of what he's doing is simply drawing deeply on the Power rather than weaving it into anything.

If you're going by the assumption that Rand doesn't know what any of this stuff means at that point, then the passage is completely meaningless and his interpretation of what he is going can't be used for either argument.

In fact, for your reading to be right, Rand's description would have to be the exact opposite of what is actually happening. Channeling using an angreal involves pulling saidin (in this case) through the angreal, not channeling anything into it.

One Armed Gimp
12-22-2009, 08:35 AM
Maybe he is just turning the power back into Callandor much as he did the access key, though obviously on a lesser scale.

lurk
12-22-2009, 09:00 AM
I would interpret this passage as that he drew onto saidin through and channeled something on or into callandor to make it an object able to split balefire. Because al other objects except cuendillar cease to exist when they are struck by balefire. Cuendillar is metal changed by the OP. This suggests (although the evidence is damn thin, I know :)), there are weaves that make an object withstand balefire.

WinespringBrother
12-22-2009, 10:29 AM
According to Brandon, all objects have threads in the Pattern. So, would balefiring an item, for example a ter'angreal (like the redstone doorways) reverse its effects for a given time frame in the same way that balefiring a person reverses that person's actions for a given time frame?

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2009, 11:10 AM
Yes and no. If that confuses you, then welcome to balefire paradoxes.

wolframbohr2
12-22-2009, 01:40 PM
I would interpret this passage as that he drew onto saidin through and channeled something on or into callandor to make it an object able to split balefire. Because al other objects except cuendillar cease to exist when they are struck by balefire. Cuendillar is metal changed by the OP. This suggests (although the evidence is damn thin, I know :)), there are weaves that make an object withstand balefire.

I agree, but once the weave he wove stopped, then Callandor would be just like any other sa'angreal. There is an other example of this in the book, not with balefire though. Moraine's staff in TEOTW when the whitecloak tries to strike her.

EOTW, CHPT 17 Rand cryed out as Moirains's staffrose to intercept the blade. That delicately carved wood could not possibly stop hard-swung steel. Sword met staff, and sparks sprayed in a fountain, a hissing roar hurling Bornhald back into his white-cloaked companions. All five went down in a heap. Tendrils of smoke rose from Bornhald's sword, on the ground beside him, blade bent a right angle where it had been melted almost in two.

EOTW, CHPT 18 "Your staff is very powerfull," Egwene said, earning a sniff from Nyneave.

Moiraine made a clicking sound. 'I have told you, child, things do not have power. The One Power comes from the true Source, and only a living mind can wield it. This is not even an angreal, mearly an aid to concentration

What I think happened is Rand used Callandor both as a sa'angreal and as an aid in concentration that helped him weave something that split the balefire. Callandor could have been a lapel pin and Rand holding a swizzle stick and he would have been able to duplicate the feat.

Ieyasu
12-22-2009, 03:36 PM
I agree, but once the weave he wove stopped, then Callandor would be just like any other sa'angreal. There is an other example of this in the book, not with balefire though. Moraine's staff in TEOTW when the whitecloak tries to strike her.





What I think happened is Rand used Callandor both as a sa'angreal and as an aid in concentration that helped him weave something that split the balefire. Callandor could have been a lapel pin and Rand holding a swizzle stick and he would have been able to duplicate the feat.

I like swizzle sticks.

Yellowbeard
12-22-2009, 04:20 PM
Looks to me like Rand channeled directly into Callandor...after pulling the flows thru Callandor.

Beginnings of a theory take hold in the mind of one that is easily confused...hmmm...

Balefire burns threads from the pattern. So balefire has the effect of targeting the pattern itself.

Rand channels directly into Callandor and is able to also directly affect the pattern, I'm making that leap because he altered BF's affect on the pattern w/ Callandor.

So...channeling directing into Callandor gives Rand the ability to directly manipulate the pattern.

So, at Shayol Ghul, Rand will break the seals and remove the patch over the bore. The bore is a bore thru the pattern. Rand will have to undo the bore as part of resealing the DO's prison. To do that, he'll need to be able to manipulate the pattern, I think. He has the tool he needs to do so in Callandor.

And w/ all three Tavern (Rand, Mat, Perrin) present at SG simultaneously, it will have some sort of effect on the pattern that makes his job easier.

So, Rand will reseal the DO and heal the pattern by channeling thru Callandor with the presence of Mat and Perrin also having an effect on the pattern making his job easier.

Problem solved.

GonzoTheGreat
12-23-2009, 03:01 AM
Perhaps Rand used the same trick that he taught to Nynaeve to undo Compulsion. If the weave he sent into Callandor were the reverse of that which makes balefire, then it might have cancelled out that which Ishamael sent.

Of course, since Ishamael used TP balefire, the result was not quite the simple cancellation one might expect. Instead, the balefire was split in a sort of preview of the crossing of the streams from aCoS.

nameless
12-23-2009, 08:47 PM
I read the beam splitting in two as more of a natural result of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. The same thing probably would have happened if Rand had dreamed himself a cuendillar shield.

4Alethinos
12-24-2009, 12:54 AM
From Yellowbeard:
Balefire burns threads from the pattern. So balefire has the effect of targeting the pattern itself.

Rand channels directly into Callandor and is able to also directly affect the pattern, I'm making that leap because he altered BF's affect on the pattern w/ Callandor.

So...channeling directing into Callandor gives Rand the ability to directly manipulate the pattern.

I totally disagree with this thesis. Balefire does not target the Pattern. It destroys people and things that are a part of the Pattern. That is a huge difference. Rand did not manipulate the Pattern with his use of Callandor in order to deflect the balefire stream. Which, BTW, may well have been produced by the TP and not the OP.

From Gonzo tG:

Perhaps Rand used the same trick that he taught to Nynaeve to undo Compulsion. If the weave he sent into Callandor were the reverse of that which makes balefire, then it might have cancelled out that which Ishamael sent.

The passage clearly states that the balefire stream was not cancelled out. It was deflected and destroyed real physical support beams. The effect was deflection and not cancellation.

Balefire produced in TAR is just as real as that produced externally to TAR. However, a dream Cuendillar shield may not have stopped anything. It would have been a dream and the BF was as real as a heart attack. Without Callandor, Rand is deader than dead and the series ends right there.

The passage clearly states that Rand drew power from the Sa'Angreal and then wove back into Callandor. He could not have used a lapel pin or swizzle stick because they are not amplifiers of the OP nor could they contain what Rand wove into it. Get a grip, guys.

It is evident if one accepts that the Ishamael BF stream was produced by the TP, then Callandor is essential for the final battle and Rand have a device that will protect him from weaves made by the TP.

"Just the facts, man, just the facts." Sgt. Joe Friday.

GonzoTheGreat
12-24-2009, 02:43 AM
It is evident if one accepts that the Ishamael BF stream was produced by the TP, then Callandor is essential for the final battle and Rand have a device that will protect him from weaves made by the TP.But Cadsuane won't let him have it, since it might be dangerous.

4Alethinos
12-25-2009, 12:07 PM
Oh yeah, right. Of course Cadsuane can really stop him when he wants it. snicker, wheeze, gasp.

Sorry, but that is preposterous. Cadsuane can no more stop him than she can stop the tides. He is the strongest Ta'Veren on the planet. He is also, most likely, the strongest channeler on the planet. I do not think that Caddy will do anything to stop him once he explains the situation to her. She will, for a change, shut up and say "OK".

That, BTW, will be a good day. If ever a woman needed a reality adjustment it is Cadsuane. Oh yeah, she will teach the male channelers something. That will be a necessity. However, all of the AS need a reality adjustment, IMNSHO.

"It is no longer lonely at the top, girls, get used to it." :cool: