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reTaardad
12-21-2009, 11:53 AM
The other day, I started to wonder, since dreamwalking is so uncommon, how do all of the Forsaken enter the World of Dreams? I know that it's simple for them to enter in the flesh, but we know for a fact that Moghedien enters it through dreams [tFoH, Chapter 34: A Silver Arrow].

In tGS, one of the Forsaken (Semirhage, I believe) called one of the dream ter'angreal a "dreamweaver," saying that it was a tool used to teach students how to enter T'A'R. Also, in tSR, Aviendha said that the Wise Ones were teaching her how to enter through her dreams, but she was having a hard time.

So I was wondering, can dreamwalking be learned? I know Dreaming is a unique Talent and can't be learned, but entering T'A'R seems to be just another skill that channelers can learn.

Spasmodean
12-21-2009, 12:14 PM
Given how the Aiel teach Egwene, it seems to have more to do with certain mental disciplines as opposed to the power.

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 12:27 PM
There is a difference in my mind between Dream Walking (ability to enter and manipulate TAR) and Dreaming (ability to read/predict portions of the pattern).

I believe pretty much anyone can be taught to enter and manipulate TAR. Some of those training pieces do require you to be able to channel... but some do not, so its not limited in my mind between being able to use the one power. Birgitte proved that non-channelers can use them as well. But she doesn't appear to be able to enter unaided.

I believe only those born with the talent will ever be Dreamers and able to catch glimpses of the future etc etc etc whatever it is exactly that the wiseones do.

It is possible that while anyone can enter TAR with the aid of a device, only Talented ppl can learn to do so on their own, without the aid of a device or an in-the-flesh gateway. I tend to look at Birgitte as verification... she was able to enter and save Nyn with the aid of one of the ter'angreal, but other than that, she has never made any appearances or mentions of being able to get to TAR on her own since being ripped out.

Frenzy
12-21-2009, 01:13 PM
Bair, anyone?

Daekyras
12-21-2009, 01:19 PM
Bair, anyone?

Oh snap!

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 02:29 PM
Bair, anyone?

Yes, she was born with the talent... and?
What has that to do with potentially training ppl WITHOUT the talent? Or are you just pointing out a fully trained Dreamer who can dreamwalk but cannot use the power?

As I pointed out, Birgitte has intimate TAR knowledge/skill but no Talent. She can use the device that does NOT require channeling to enter TAR, but she does not seem to be able to enter TAR unaided.

I think anyone can be trained to enter TAR, but I am unsure if ppl trained to use devices to enter TAR will ever be able to enter unaided.

There are two talents or skill sets here that I am speaking of. Dreamwalking itself, the ability to enter into and manipulate TAR, and the Dreamer talent which adds the GOI and predictive nature.

I think anyone can be taught to dreamwalk with devices. I question whether or not any of them that learn on the devices will ever be able to enter TAR on their own. To date, we have not seen anyone who was trained to use a 'dreamweaver' actually graduate and not need the dreamweaver any longer. Egwene is the only person who has done so, but as we know, she also has the Dreaming talent which includes access to the GOI and prophetic dreams.

Terez
12-21-2009, 02:44 PM
As I pointed out, Birgitte has intimate TAR knowledge/skill but no Talent. She can use the device that does NOT require channeling to enter TAR, but she does not seem to be able to enter TAR unaided.
She could probably be trained, though.

I think anyone can be trained to enter TAR, but I am unsure if ppl trained to use devices to enter TAR will ever be able to enter unaided.
That is ostensibly the purpose of the ter'angreal, to train people to enter unaided:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 7 - A Matter of Thought

Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter'angreal by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what was in her head, but her words and expression had been plain enough. She did not like what al'Thor was doing here, not in the least, and meant to do something about it. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.

I think anyone can be taught to dreamwalk with devices. I question whether or not any of them that learn on the devices will ever be able to enter TAR on their own. To date, we have not seen anyone who was trained to use a 'dreamweaver' actually graduate and not need the dreamweaver any longer. Egwene is the only person who has done so, but as we know, she also has the Dreaming talent which includes access to the GOI and prophetic dreams.
However, we have seen Aran'gar, who has absolutely no Talent in the World of Dreams whatsoever, but is able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod without the aid of a ter'angreal, like all of the other Forsaken, and is even able to access the GOI.

I'd wager that ever aspect of Dreamwalking is a skill except for the prophetic Dreaming. That doesn't mean that people don't have Talents for Dreamwalking—it's just like Healing; both a Talent and a skill that can be taught.

This is giving me de ja vu. We've discussed this before haven't we Yasu?

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 04:19 PM
I'd wager that ever aspect of Dreamwalking is a skill except for the prophetic Dreaming. That doesn't mean that people don't have Talents for Dreamwalking—it's just like Healing; both a Talent and a skill that can be taught.

This is giving me de ja vu. We've discussed this before haven't we Yasu?

I am not so sure about the GOI access, nor am I confident that ppl who learn with the ter-angreal are ever able to enter on their own. The only person we have known unequivocally to do so is Egwene, whom we also know has the Talent. Infact, aside from Rand, Perrin, Wiseones, and Egwene, no other third ager has entered TAR unaided at all, nor have any of the people who have started to learn on them ever entered without that aid... which makes me question if the ability to enter is a Talent or skill. It's coming up on end-game time, I think it would have been shown by now if they could have learned to do such on their own...

And yes, Terez, we discussed it years ago when we were talking about whether or not Rand is a dreamwalker or Dreamer. As I recall, my position was that he is. It's on the yuku board somewhere.

One thing that has bothered me is the lack of Shadow affiliated people using Dreaming or Foretelling. Granted, it may be too small a sample to think one of the thirteen could have Prophetic Dreams or Foretelling ability. I would like to see more prophecies that the Forsaken and Black Ajah believe in. I hope Verin's book sheds some light on this matter.

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 04:38 PM
I have always taken the quote from LoC as a ter'angreal that was bad be studeints learning to make ter'angreal for some reason.

However, I can see it being used to train begining students to TAR. Now, does this mean that students who do not have the "spark" to touch TAR on their own to learn to go to TAR? No. It could be used much like practice swords. You don't teach someone how to use real sword with out using practice swords, generaly. (I know we have examples of people, Rand, learning at first with a real sword, but he did swich to practice swords when they were available until his skill got to a certain point)

The practice sleepweavers, (pg 30 TGS, CHPT 25), not "dreamweaver" could also have a form of "protection" built in to them which is why they appear faint. They may not be able to go deeply into TAR, which could be easy to do for someone just learning. (Perrin and the wolf dreams and Hopper's comments of being here to strong) The Wise Ones comment that they look like someone in the waking sleep. It may be also part of the reason it was so hard for the AS to stop the nightmare they encountered. We only know how the Wise Ones teach TAR, but not how they did it in the AoL.

Terez
12-21-2009, 05:32 PM
I thought so. Aran'gar is still the strongest argument against certain people not being able to be trained to access the GOI, or Tel'aran'rhiod without a ter'angreal. All of the Forsaken can do it, and only two of them are notably Talented, and it's a stretch to assume that all of them are Talented in that area. Aran'gar is definitely not, but she can still do these things.

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 06:15 PM
Anyone have a list of all the times Aran'gar is mentioned with or in or about with respect to TAR and GOI? We may need to take a look at all the instances involving TAR to get to the bottom of whats going on here. I am still on EOTW for my required after new book read through, but do not know how long it will take to get through all the books and keep track of all the TARs.

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 06:32 PM
I thought so. Aran'gar is still the strongest argument against certain people not being able to be trained to access the GOI, or Tel'aran'rhiod without a ter'angreal. All of the Forsaken can do it, and only two of them are notably Talented, and it's a stretch to assume that all of them are Talented in that area. Aran'gar is definitely not, but she can still do these things.

Aran'gar isnt a argument at all, his lack of skill doesn't indicate anything about his training what so ever. Nor have we seen/heard anything from him to indicate one way or the other. We know he isnt very skilled at TAR-ing, but that doesnt mean it's a Talent he never trained, or skill he isnt very adept at.

We have not seen how any of the Forsaken were trained, or whether or not all of them are Talented, though it would seem pretty safe to say Moghedian, Lanfear, and Moridin at the very least are Talented. I would also include Rhavin, Belal, Demandred and Asmodean in the talented section. It is quite easy for me to believe that all of them are Talented in this area. Though, we never do find out just how many access it via Dreaming vs in the flesh. It could very well be that those who dont have the Talent to enter unaided have always entered in the flesh. It would be interesting to find out if someone could access the GOI while in TAR in the flesh, I don't think it is possible...

So far, we have not seen any non-talented people use the GOI. None of the AS who have been practicing, nor any of the super girls who have been using them for far longer... that is why I am leery to believe that GOI access is a learnable skill rather than a inherent talent.

One of the things that also bothers me is that among the Aiel, there are no male Dreamers... why? Are they sexist? They have already established that Dreaming has nothing to do with the power... so why wouldn't they have any male Dreamers at all? Is it that they just never train them? Or that they do not occur naturally? What's the deal?

Spasmodean
12-21-2009, 06:34 PM
I always took that quote about beginners in T'Ar using the ter'angreal while they learn the properties of the World of Dreams, as using the sleepweavers because they are not fully in the world of dreams (misty) and so in less danger should they mess up.

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 06:51 PM
I always took that quote about beginners in T'Ar using the ter'angreal while they learn the properties of the World of Dreams, as using the sleepweavers because they are not fully in the world of dreams (misty) and so in less danger should they mess up.

This could very well be true.


..but (and its a big but):

I do have a problem accepting that however, because they work on any and every body who uses them. Channelers and non-channelers alike. Then again, just because they work for them doesn't mean they were ever intended for their use...

Aside from Egwene, none of the users are Talented Dreamers. I find it hard to believe that all those former Rebels and the supergirls, along with all the Black Ajah Aes Sedai are all Talented at dreaming. If, however, these aids were originally used to teach Talented ppl, and protect them while they were training, and are now being used outside of their original purpose... *shrug* perhaps.

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 06:58 PM
So I was wondering, can dreamwalking be learned? I know Dreaming is a unique Talent and can't be learned, but entering T'A'R seems to be just another skill that channelers can learn.

Problem is, RJ's definitions of skill vs Talent are murky (see below)

This is giving me de ja vu. We've discussed this before haven't we Yasu?

Maybe you're referring to this (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/35678/t/Listening-to-the-wind.html#reply-35678).

Ieyasu
12-21-2009, 07:24 PM
Problem is, RJ's definitions of skill vs Talent are murky (see below)



Maybe you're referring to this (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/35678/t/Listening-to-the-wind.html#reply-35678).

No, I am not in that thread at all.

The thread I am referring to was about Rand being a dreamwalker... I just did a quick search and could not locate it. It was a long time ago.

Belazamon
12-21-2009, 08:50 PM
I don't recall if it's specifically mentioned that Aran'gar is actually dreaming herself into TAR. Barring that, it would seem most logical to assume that she's entering in the flesh. The fact that all of the Chosen at least know how to enter TAR in the flesh seems to have little or no bearing on the current discussion, though.

I'd agree that anyone without a Talent for Dreaming will most logically never be able to enter TAR on their own (barring entering via Gateway). TAR is a very handy place/tool to have access to, so it shouldn't be surprising that people who can't enter it traditionally should still be interested in learning how to use it effectively via other means.

Terez
12-21-2009, 08:57 PM
Aran'gar isnt a argument at all, his lack of skill doesn't indicate anything about his training what so ever.
That's just you ignoring the evidence that doesn't suit your theory. It's pretty obvious that anyone can be trained to enter Tel'aran'rhiod and even access the GOI. Halima had to be right next to Egwene to affect her dreams, but Egwene could do it from hundreds of miles away, right after she learned. The only thing pointing to only Dreamers having access to the GOI what Egwene said, that she doesn't know a way that it can be accessed via the ter'angreal.

I always took that quote about beginners in T'Ar using the ter'angreal while they learn the properties of the World of Dreams, as using the sleepweavers because they are not fully in the world of dreams (misty) and so in less danger should they mess up.
They aren't in any less danger due to being misty, so far as we can tell - Nynaeve was certainly scared for her life when she faced Moghedien that way. It just made her more vulnerable because she couldn't use the Power properly. If anything, the ones that make you misty are probably used to train channelers, so that they will (like Nynaeve) be forced to use the properties of Tel'aran'rhiod to their advantage rather than the Power.

Belazamon
12-21-2009, 09:05 PM
It's pretty obvious that anyone can be trained to enter Tel'aran'rhiod and even access the GOI.
Am I forgetting a quote to this effect? Honestly doesn't strike me as obvious, or even likely.

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 09:17 PM
They aren't in any less danger due to being misty, so far as we can tell -

They would be in less danger of going to deep/strong in Tar and dieing in the waking world as a result.

The mistyness is simular to what the Wise Ones comment about if they learned to ener TAR in a "waking sleep" (don't remember if that is the name they used)

We know from Hopper that being in TAR too strongly for too long will cause death.

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 09:21 PM
Anyone has the ability to dream themselves into TAR. In fact, everyone does for fleeting moments, as we've several times in the series.

The question is whether anyone can learn the control necessary to dreamwalk effectively. All the evidence supports the idea that this is possible (training ter'angreal, including ones that don't require channeling, etc.).

wolframbohr2
12-21-2009, 09:27 PM
Fish can fly briefly. It does not mean they can learn to soar like eagles

Terez
12-21-2009, 10:04 PM
Am I forgetting a quote to this effect?
Yes. Aran'gar can access the GOI and she has zero Talent and almost no skill at Dreamwalking.

Belazamon
12-21-2009, 10:33 PM
Yes. Aran'gar can access the GOI and she has zero Talent and almost no skill at Dreamwalking.
When have we seen Aran'gar in the GOI? I genuinely have no recollection of this.

FelixPax
12-21-2009, 10:55 PM
So I was wondering, can dreamwalking be learned? I know Dreaming is a unique Talent and can't be learned, but entering T'A'R seems to be just another skill that channelers can learn.

The short answer is Dreaming as a Talent has at least three parts. Yes, most or possibly all of the three Talents can be learned.

(#1) Entering the Tel'aran'rhiod can be learned, while (#2) Elayne's own experiences seem to express the possibility that interpreting one's own Dreams are possible as well. (#3) The hardest Talent of Dreaming is to find other people's Dreams and then be able to interpret them, its unknown if this particular Dreaming Talent can be learned or not.


This topic recently arose at 13th Depository (13depository.blogspot.com) forum, where I gave this longer answer (http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=251&view=findpost&p=1433277):


Aviendha in time will be a full pledged Dreamwalker, as she either has the talent natively and/or can learn to Dreamwalk in her own right. We know this is implied because Aiel Dreamwalkers would not forcefully bring Aviendha into a Dream, meaning some ability is there.


In Elayne's case, the process of learning how to become a Dreamwalker and Dreaming was aided by the use of various ter'angreal sleepweavers, typically used by beginners during the Age of Legends - Iron Disc, Amber Plaque, Silver Ring, and the Twisted Ring. Even Demandred comments upon Elayne's method of accessing the TAR, which is one part or talent of Dreaming:

Of course they would not forcibly bring Avi into the dream; they brought her willingly.

What you've said about the ter'angreal: exactly! Elayne is not a dreamer, she uses a ter'angreal to access the Dream! The WO Dreamwalkers would have noticed if Nyn or Ely were Dreamers; they could tell Eggy was, even when Eggy was using a ter'angreal in TAR.

I have no idea why you think Elayne's dreams mark her as a Dreamer; people dream all the time, but that does not mean they Dream.




Why do I think Elayne's dreams mark her as "Dreamer"??

Well, what exactly does the scope of a Dreamer include in particular?

Here is how the Glossary in 'The Shadow Rising' book describes and defines it:

Talents:
Others such as Foretelling (the ability to foretell future events, but in a general way) are now found only rarely if at all. Another Talent long thought lost is Dreaming, which involves, among other things, interpreting the Dreamer’s dreams to foretell future events in more specific fashion than Foretelling does. Some Dreamers had the ability to enter Tel’aran’rhiod, the World of Dreams, and (it is said) even other people’s dreams. The last known Dreamer was Corianin Nedeal (coh-ree-AHN-ihn neh-dee-AHL), who died in 526 NE, but there is now another, known to but a few.


My point is Elayne literally does interpret her own Dreams about Rand, twice in fact, in particular all the women's faces who will share Rand in the future. Many of whom Elayne does not recognize, as of 'The Fires of Heavens' book. One of who is Amathera, who we know is placed in the next book to be in Caemlyn, with Elayne on scene.


If interpreting ones own Dreams is not one standard definition of being a Dreamer; then being able to enter the Tel'aran'rhoid is yet another aspect and definition of being a Dreamer, too. Elayne meets both of these definitions of being a Dreamer.


Even Egwene who Anaiya, Amys, Bair, Melanie, Seana, and Verin all thought and believed to be a Dreamer and/or Dreamwalker (in Aiel wording) -- by 'The Fire of Heaven,Chapter 5 -- could not yet find individually other peoples dreams. For example Egwene herself was at a similar place to Elayne's -- tFoH book, Ch.36 -- when, "she dreams of Ba'alzamon and Rand" in 'The Great Hunt, Chapter 12'. One can be a Dreamer, and not yet be able to find other peoples dreams.

However it seems finding other peoples dreams is an very advanced Dreamer's skill, which Elayne has not learned unlike Egwene who found (#1) Amys dreams in 'The Fires of Heaven' - Ch.7 "Departures"; then who only later found (#2) Elayne, Nynaeve's dreams in 'The Fire of Heaven' - Ch.47 "The Price of a Ship".



Becoming a Dreamer is a process, which the full expression of, is not immediately fully known at the beginning of the learning one has the talent to become a Dreamer. Elayne, Nynaeve simply haven't had as much aid from the Wise Ones to advance their own skills as Egwene has had. Although both Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha are far more advanced that any of the Salidar Aes Sedai Sitters including Leane & Siuan.


Even Elaida could of likely become a Dreamer if someone was able to train her native talent to the fullest potential and she accepted the training for it---though, I laugh at the thought of Elaida accepting anyone underneath herself, for any type of training freely....

Anaiya wore a thoughtful look. “Well, now,” she said softly, “that’s a possibility I’ll wager no one has considered. You may be a Dreamer. It is a small chance, child, but . . . We haven’t had one of those in—oh—four or five hundred years. And Dreaming is close linked to Foretelling. If you really can Dream, it may be that you can Foretell, as well. That would be a finger in the Reds’ eye.

Elaida never had the aid of a sleepweaver ter'angreal to help the learning process which Verin gave Egwene either; without which Egwene might not ever of met Amys in the Waste, in 'The Shadow Rising,Chapter 11. Verin Sedai's gift of a sleepweaver to Egwene was an important turning point in the story.


Yes, even Nynaeve seems to have met one aspect of becoming a Dreamer, very early in the series...during her Accepted Test, where she pictures the "arch" and coming into being - in The Great Hunt, Ch.23 "The Testing" - and the "arch" does come into being; leaving Lan and his love to try to protect and help Mat, Rand, Perrin and Egwene. Basically Nynaeve figured out on her own how to exit that TAR like world by using a Dreamer's method of picturing, not by use of saidar alone to create an exit Arch way to the White Tower's Arch. Nynaeve also pictured those blackthorns in each of her very own palms of her hands, as well, without any use of saidar during her Accepted Test to create those thorns.



Nynaeve in a sense is already a Dreamer in a more limited sense, because she meets one aspect of the Glossary definition:

#2 - "Some Dreamers had the ability to enter Tel’aran’rhiod, the World of Dreams...."

However Nynaeve seems to lack the other aspects of the Dreaming Talents which Elayne has two of three parts and Egwene fully:

#1 - "Another Talent long thought lost is Dreaming, which involves, among other things, interpreting the Dreamer’s dreams to foretell future events in more specific fashion than Foretelling does."

#3 - ...and (it is said) even other people’s dreams.


Elayne meets #1 and #2 -- however not #3 yet.
Nynaeve meets only #2 with the help of a sleepweaver -- not #1 nor #3 (that I know of, as of now).

Egwene can and does meet all three parts, #1, #2, #3 of the definition for being a Dreamer.


----------------------------------------------

Here is the prior posting (http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=251&view=findpost&p=1423408), which set off the discussion between Dominic and myself:


Elayne? She is not a Dreamer.

Elayne can Dream, and did Dream about Rand twice in tFoH, Ch.36 "A New Name":


The dream was a pleasant one, if odd. Rand knelt before her, and she put a hand on his head and bonded him as her Warder. One of her Warders; she would have to choose Green now, with Birgitte. There were other women there, faces changing between one glance and the next. Nynaeve, Min, Moiraine, Aviendha, Berelain, Amathera, Liandrin, others she did not know. Whoever they were, she knew that she had to share him with them, because in the dream she was certain that that was what Min had viewed. She was not sure how she felt about that—some of those faces she wanted to claw to shreds—but if it was fated by the Pattern, it would have to be. Yet she would have one thing of him the others could never have, the bond between Warder and Aes Sedai.


She had the dream of bonding Rand again, more than once. Sometimes he knelt voluntarily, and sometimes she had to do what she had done with Birgitte, even sneaking into his bedchamber while he slept. Birgitte was one of the other women now. Elayne did not mind that too much. Not her, or Min, or Egwene, or Aviendha, or Nynaeve, though she could not imagine what Lan would say to that last. Others, though . .


In fact there are no known quotations (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_94gnrwmjc2) of Robert Jordan disagreeing with the evidence that Elayne did Dream, a true Dream twice.


Here is what Anaiya told Egwene about Dreamer's in tGH, Ch.12 "Woven in the Pattern":

Anaiya wore a thoughtful look. “Well, now,” she said softly, “that’s a possibility I’ll wager no one has considered. You may be a Dreamer. It is a small chance, child, but . . . We haven’t had one of those in—oh—four or five hundred years. And Dreaming is close linked to Foretelling. If you really can Dream, it may be that you can Foretell, as well. That would be a finger in the Reds’ eye.

Of course since this scene we have seen Nicola give multiple Foretellings, however we had not seen evidence of her Dreaming yet.


Additionally, we seen at least two Chosen mention Dreaming related ter'angreal, Mesaana (tGS book) and Demandred


Becoming a Dreamer is a process, and some individuals are better at Dreaming than others: Amys & Melaine are a bit better at it, than Bair & Seana are (or were in Seana's case) they said to Moiraine & Egwene in one scene. Even Aviendha in her own words to Rand implies being taught how to Dreamwalk:

She let out a long, heavy breath. “I was not supposed to let you know. If Bair finds out—Seana said it was too dangerous tonight. I do not understand it: I cannot enter the dream without one of them to help me. Something dangerous tonight is all I know. That is why they are taking turns at the door to this roof. They are all worried.”

Bair’s thin voice sounded like an iron rod. “It has been handed down among dreamwalkers since the first that no one must ever be brought into the dream. It is said that that was the way of the Shadow in the last days of the Age of Legends.”

Aviendha in time will be a full pledged Dreamwalker, as she either has the talent natively and/or can learn to Dreamwalk in her own right. We know this is implied because Aiel Dreamwalkers would not forcefully bring Aviendha into a Dream, meaning some ability is there.


In Elayne's case, the process of learning how to become a Dreamwalker and Dreaming was aided by the use of various ter'angreal sleepweavers, typically used by beginners during the Age of Legends - Iron Disc, Amber Plaque, Silver Ring, and the Twisted Ring. Even Demandred comments upon Elayne's method of accessing the TAR, which is one part or talent of Dreaming:

Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter’angreal by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students.

Elayne like Aviendha, Nynaeve are each Dreamers, yet each is relatively further behind in their Dreamwalking talents than Egwene is currently. Egwene started before these other did, and she had more direct training than the others did from Amys, Bair, Melaine & Seana as well. Although Birgitte did do a small amount of teaching to Nynaeve, Elayne and Perrin in the TAR, too.

Yuri33
12-21-2009, 11:15 PM
Fish can fly briefly. It does not mean they can learn to soar like eagles

There is no evidence to justify this analogy in the current context.

Weird Harold
12-22-2009, 12:42 AM
When have we seen Aran'gar in the GOI? I genuinely have no recollection of this.
We haven't seenAran'gar in the GOI, we've only seen her thought that she had to be physically close to find Egwene's dreams -- which means she has to be able to get into the GOI even if she's not as talented or trained as Egwene is in finding a specific dreamer's dreams.

dukescott
12-22-2009, 02:47 AM
The full Glossary entry is even more interesting.

Originally Posted by tSR book - Glossary
Talents:
Abilities in the use of the One Power in specific areas. The best known of these is Healing. Some, such as Traveling, the ability to shift from one place to another without crossing the intervening space, have been lost. Others such as Foretelling (the ability to foretell future events, but in a general way) are now found only rarely if at all. Another Talent long thought lost is Dreaming, which involves, among other things, interpreting the Dreamer’s dreams to foretell future events in more specific fashion than Foretelling does. Some Dreamers had the ability to enter Tel’aran’rhiod, the World of Dreams, and (it is said) even other people’s dreams. The last known Dreamer was Corianin Nedeal (coh-ree-AHN-ihn neh-dee-AHL), who died in 526 NE, but there is now another, known to but a few.

The complete glossary text brings the entire entry into question IMO. The fact that it refers to Talents as "abilities in the use of the One Power" clearly conflicts with what Bair states: [TSR CH23] It is not a thing of the One Power, though Aes Sedai believe it is. The glossary text also compares it to Traveling which does not appear to be a Talent at all and entirely based on OP strength (as seen by link Aes Sedai being able to Travel even if they are not strong enough on their own). Addionally Bair is proven correct as only two of the WOs who can Dreamwalk can channel.

From what is presented in the books it appears that there are 6 non-Forsaken Dreamwalkers (Amy, Bair, Melanie, Seane, Egwene, Avienda). Rand enters via Gateway, and Elayne, Nyneave, and the rest of the Aes Sedai have only entered via Ter'angreal. The closest that anyone else has come to dreaming would be Perrin in the Wolf Dream.

It would appear that Moghedian is a Dreamwalker as well (she faded away when shot by Bridget) but to my recollection I do not think that any of the other Forsaken enter TAR except by Gateway. Please provide quotes if I am wrong.

As for the Ter'angreal being training devices, this could be in the context of teaching the student TAR before they graduate to Traveling there. Remember that Demandred stated this after he had Traveled to TAR.

On the topic of entering in the flesh Bair states [TSR CH23] It is said that once there were those who could enter the dream in the flesh, and no longer be in this world at all. This was an evil thing, for they did evil; it must never be attempted, even if you believe it possible for you, for each time you will lose some part of what makes you human.

Three points on this.
1. The reason she provides for it being evil is that they did evil.
2. This sounds like gateways (Traveling), a lost ability at the time the statement was made.
3. This is a POV that is based on stories passed down for generations. High probability it is no more or less accurate than any other POV about things that AoL people could do. There were many POV about the permanence of severing (stilling, gentling) even by Forsaken prior to Nyneave and Flynn discovering how to heal it. Just because a character believes it doesn't make it true.

I am intentionally leaving Slayer out of this conversation as he seems to enter in a manner similar to Gateways (Far Madding) but not quite as he reappears in the Inn in the Two Rivers after being shot by Perrin.

nameless
12-22-2009, 02:51 AM
Rand and Perrin can both enter TAR in dreams. The only reason Rand uses Gateways instead is that his dream wards prevent him from dreaming himself there. If he dropped the wards he could dreamwalk normally again, as he did on several occassions in the Dragon Reborn.

Ieyasu
12-22-2009, 03:55 AM
Rand and Perrin can both enter TAR in dreams. The only reason Rand uses Gateways instead is that his dream wards prevent him from dreaming himself there. If he dropped the wards he could dreamwalk normally again, as he did on several occassions in the Dragon Reborn.

He did in the Moridin sit down in TGS as well.

FelixPax
12-22-2009, 05:46 AM
He did in the Moridin sit down in TGS as well.

Rand is a Dreamer in multiple the senses of the Glossary definition, I gave previously; however Moridin meeting Rand in tGS book, Chapter 15 "A Place to Begin" is as muddy of example as is possible. You can find many other better examples. Why?


Because there is a unusual link between Moridin and Rand which transcends and is seemingly highly different from the World of Dreams, under any of the three commonly known definitions. In a nutshell, Moridin literally can enter Rand consciousness at will, whether he is fully awake or sleep. And Rand, seems to have done the very same thing into Moridin's consciousness in tGS book, Chapter 15 "A Place to Begin". Even Moridin asks Rand get out of his own head. That whole chapter is something else entirely.

No Aiel Dreamwalker can enter into a full consciousness awake person's mind, like Moridin can into Rand's mind. Nor can Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne do it, either.


Ieyasu, you'd of been correct if you mentioned Rand in the TAR spying on Siuan calling Egwene back to the Salidar Aes Sedai camp in Altara. Or Rand dreaming of swimming with Elayne, Min....

Ieyasu
12-22-2009, 11:52 AM
Rand is a Dreamer in multiple the senses of the Glossary definition, I gave previously; however Moridin meeting Rand in tGS book, Chapter 15 "A Place to Begin" is as muddy of example as is possible. You can find many other better examples. Why?


Because there is a unusual link between Moridin and Rand which transcends and is seemingly highly different from the World of Dreams, under any of the three commonly known definitions. In a nutshell, Moridin literally can enter Rand consciousness at will, whether he is fully awake or sleep. And Rand, seems to have done the very same thing into Moridin's consciousness in tGS book, Chapter 15 "A Place to Begin". Even Moridin asks Rand get out of his own head. That whole chapter is something else entirely.

Wow. I'll take a ounce of whatever this crazy guy is smoking. Your wild assertions and made up abilities being attributed to people is nothing more than speculation and conjecture. Bad speculation at that.

Please provide a single example of Moridin 'entering Rand consciousness' even once, let alone 'at will'...


No Aiel Dreamwalker can enter into a full consciousness awake person's mind, like Moridin can into Rand's mind. Nor can Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne do it, either.

uhhh... Moridin has never 'entered' into Rand's mind. Unless, of course, when you say mind you actually mean dreams, and mean Ishmael when you say Moridin...


Ieyasu, you'd of been correct if you mentioned Rand in the TAR spying on Siuan calling Egwene back to the Salidar Aes Sedai camp in Altara. Or Rand dreaming of swimming with Elayne, Min....

Of the two you listed, only 1 took place in TAR, the other was a internal dream of Rand's, in which Lanfear and Asmodean both 'broke' into.

Now I will say that perhaps the Moridin sitdown in chapter 15 of TGS was actually inside of Moridin's dream rather than inside of TAR, but the effect is the same. That is a possibility... either way, whether it was in TAR or Rand simply 'dream hooked' himself into Moridin's dream, Rand still needs the Talent.

But really, man... wow. I think I am about done reading your drivel from here on out...

wolframbohr2
12-22-2009, 01:14 PM
There is no evidence to justify this analogy in the current context.

Sure there is. Since anyone can touch TAR briefly (fish can fly briefly) they can learn to enter TAR like dream walkers (learn to soar like eagles)

We can take this a step further. Since TAR is the wolf dream, then anyone who can enter TAR can learn to talk to wolves.

Just because someone briefly does something or has a prophetic dream does not make them something or that it can be learned. I can breifly and randomly hit a clear note, there is not any amount of training in the world that is going to make me singer.

A lot of these one offs could be the pattern nugging things to correct itself. Why can't the pattern uses dreams to help someone make the decision that needs to be made. Its going to use subtle things to nudge where it needs to go. Its not going to let things go in a certain way, then go "Sorry, you need to be over here, or doing this." then have a giant hand come down and move them to where they should be and doing what they should be.

FelixPax
12-23-2009, 06:48 PM
Please provide a single example of Moridin 'entering Rand consciousness' even once, let alone 'at will'...

Whether you want to call the Shadow's champion by Shai'tan, Ba'alzamon, the Watcher, Elan Morin Tedronai, Betrayer of Hope, Heartfang, Ishamael, or Moridin, it is the very same soul of an individual. The only real difference is when and/or who uses which particular name, throughout the Wheel of Time story.

For simplicity purposes only, I'll refer to the Shadow's champion as Ishamael in this post.

uhhh... Moridin has never 'entered' into Rand's mind. Unless, of course, when you say mind you actually mean dreams, and mean Ishmael when you say Moridin...

Ishamael has indeed popped up many, many times in Rand's consciousness, when he was fully awake. It is somewhat similar to how Mat, Perrin and Rand each can appear in one another active consciousness, when they think or hear another one's name(s): "Bloody Colors!". Except Ishamael's appearances are far more dangerous, possibly deadly to Rand in the future. Ishamael feels the lost of Rand's own left hand, as it was his very own now (tGS,Prologue, pg.39). Whereas what Perrin, Mat, and Rand each do physically is not connected into a feedback loop, except for a one-way series of moving mental images of each other.

Rand has indeed seen Ishamael multiple times thought out the story. In the first quotation look at the obvious contrast between the "Colors" mechanism; and the Ishamael to Rand mechanism, "stranger who saved Rand in Shador Logoth".



Was there feasting, a festival, parades? How many Forsaken came against you at Shador Logoth? Which ones? What it look like at the end? What did it feel like? My book won’t be very good without the details. I hope Mat and Perrin give me better answers.” He frowned, long eyebrows grazed his cheeks. “I hope they’re all right.”

Colors spun in Rand’s head, twin rainbows swirled in water. He knew how to suppress them, now, but this time he did not try. One resolved into a brief image of Mat riding through forest at the head of a line of mounted folk. He seemed to be arguing with a small, dark woman who rode beside him, taking his hat off and peering into it, then cramming it back onto his head. That lasted only moments, then was replaced by Perrin sitting over winecups in a common room or tavern with a man and a woman who wore identical red coats ornately trimmed with blue and yellow. Odd garments. Perrin looked grim as death, his companions wary. Of him?

“They’re well,” he said, calmly ignoring a piercing look from Cadsuane. She did not know everything, and he intended to keep it that way. Calm on the surface, content, blowing smoke rings. Inside was another matter. Where are they? He thought angrily, pushing down another appearance of the colors. That was as easy as breathing, now, I need them, and they’re off for a day at the Ansaline Gardens!

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man’s face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shador Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse….

He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?
If you don’t know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were…touching…the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction, to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too.

Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed particular. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now…? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him.
When our streams of balefire touched in Shador Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can’t think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seems his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father’s farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too.

With the “Colors” mechanism a viewer who has a one-way interaction to Rand, Perrin, or Mat can seemly easy get rid of the moving image(s) within his mind. But the Ishamael<->Rand connection is a totally different two-way mechanism. I have found 8 pages worth of direct quotes showing the development of a strange Ishamael<->Rand connection, so far in my research of the series. Dating back in all, to tEoW book it seems (Ch.9,"Tellings of the Wheel"), but for sure expressed by aPoD book: foreshadowing.


Yet withsaidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction, and they would touch. No more than a hair.
“What’s the matter?” Nynaeve demanded, moving close and peering up at him in concern. “Your face has gone all gray.” She reached for his head, and his skin popped out in goose bumps.

A scratching at the door brought his head around and made Min shift her stance. He suspected she had slipped a throwing knife out of her sleeve and was hiding it behind her wrist. The woman carried more knives tucked about her than Thom Merrilin had. Or Mat. Colors whirled in his head, almost resolving into . . . what? A man on a wagon seat? Not the face that sometimes appeared in his thoughts, anyway, and the scene was gone in an instant, without any of the dizziness that accompanied the face.
“Come,” he called, standing up.

Notice how the Ishamael to Rand connection is both active in Rand’s consciousness and at the same time, it has a two-way type of feedback embedded. Rand is not asleep in this scene, that is a fact.


This strange Ishamael<->Rand connection mechanism, is I think, is what Min's Vision (aCoS, Ch.33) is referring to:

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

This strange connection is "how" Ishamael has found Rand across the many parts of story, not him being ta'veren nor necessarily within his Dreams. Rand did warded his Dreams, after gaining Asmodean as a teacher in Rhuidean.
One can find examples of Ishamael popped up in Rand's mind, many times when Rand is hit by "dizzy or dizziness" spells, which increasingly over time last longer and longer as the story progresses.

Here is one scene:

In Far Madding, a wealthy man was one whose wife gave him a generous allowance or a widower who had been provided for. Maybe Rochaid was meeting Darkfriends. But if so, why had the man waited?
Suddenly a wave of dizziness hit him, a murky face filling his vision for an instant, and he staggered against a passerby. Taller than Rand himself, in bright green livery, the yellow-haired man shifted the large basket he was carrying and fended Rand off gently. A long, puckered scar ran down the side of his sun-dark face. Bowing his head, he murmured an apology and hurried on.

Rand cannot even draw the source in Far Madding, yet Ishamael's "face" appears once again with "dizziness". That's no Dream either.

nameless
12-23-2009, 08:42 PM
Sure there is. Since anyone can touch TAR briefly (fish can fly briefly) they can learn to enter TAR like dream walkers (learn to soar like eagles)

We can take this a step further. Since TAR is the wolf dream, then anyone who can enter TAR can learn to talk to wolves.



You're being facetious but it's quite likely that anyone capable of entering TAR could communicate with the wolves they encountered there. When Moiraine briefs Perrin on what little she knows of TAR in tDR she mentions that Aes Sedai Dreamers have written accounts of interacting with wolves and even meeting wolves who acted as their guides.

FelixPax
12-23-2009, 09:42 PM
Rand meets at least two tSR Glossary definitions of being a 'Dreamer':

(#2) - He entered the Dream World in the flesh to kill Rahvin.
(#2) - He spies on Siuan and the Salidar Ajah Heads commanding Egwene to return to them in Salidar, in the TAR.
(#2) - He almost kills Perrin in within a 'Dream' (tDR,Ch.36)
(#3) - He Dreamed of the future, a darkfriend with a dagger attempting to kill himself in Tear, White Tower leash ahead (Mesaana & Dumai Wells).
(#3) - He dreams true about his future relationship with Min, Elayne, Aviendha.


In addition to Rand having a strange connection to Ishamael, and a separate set of 'Colors' connections to Mat and Perrin.


Ieyasu, you'd of been correct if you mentioned Rand in the TAR spying on Siuan calling Egwene back to the Salidar Aes Sedai camp in Altara. Or Rand dreaming of swimming with Elayne, Min....Of the two you listed, only 1 took place in TAR, the other was a internal dream of Rand's, in which Lanfear and Asmodean both 'broke' into.

Rand does 'Dream' of Elayne, Min swimming (tSR,Ch.2) before the later 'Dream' your thinking, referring to of with Lanfear & Asmodean breaking into Rand's Dream:

In his darkened bedchamber Rand tossed uneasily on a bed wide enough for five people. He was dreaming.
Through a shadowy forest Moiraine was prodding him with a sharp stick toward where the Amyrlin Seat waited, sitting on a stump with a rope halter for his neck in her hands. Dim shapes moved half-seen through the trees, stalking, hunting him; here a dagger blade flashed in the failing light, over there he caught a glimpse of ropes ready for binding. Slender and not as tall as his shoulder, Moiraine wore an expression he had never seen on her face. Fear. Sweating, she prodded harder, trying to hurry him to the Amyrlin’s halter. Darkfriends and the Forsaken in the shadows, the White Tower’s leash ahead and Moiraine behind. Dodging Moiraine’s stick, he fled.
“It is too late for that,” she called after him, but he had to get back. Back.
Muttering, he thrashed on the bed, then was still, breathing more easily for a moment.
He was in the Waterwood back home, sunlight slanting through the trees to sparkle on the pond in front of him. There was green moss on the rocks at this end of the pond, and thirty paces away at the other end a small arc of wildflowers. This was where, as a child, he had learned to swim.
“You should have a swim now.”
He spun around with a start. Min stood there, grinning at him in her boy’s coat and breeches, and next to her, Elayne, with her red-golden curls, in a green silk gown fit for her mother’s palace.
It was Min who had spoken, but Elayne added, “The water looks inviting, Rand. No one will bother us here.”

Above is the 'Dream' of Rand's I was referring to in a previous posting. Not this later 'Dream' influenced by Lanfear, Asmodean, on the night two Draghkar attack Rand:

Eyes closed, Rand stroked through the water. Nicely cool. And so wet. It seemed that he had never before realized how good wet felt. Lifting his head, he looked around at the willows lining one end of the pond, the big oak at the other, stretching thick, shading limbs over the water. The Waterwood. It was good to be home. He had the feeling he had been away; where was not exactly clear, but not important, either. Up to Watch Hill. Yes. He had never been farther than that. Cool and wet. And alone.
Suddenly two bodies hurtled through the air, knees clutched to chest, landing with great splashes that blinded him. Shaking the water out of his eyes, he found Elayne and Min smiling at him from either side, just their heads showing above the pale green surface. Two strokes would take him to either woman. Away from the other. He could not love both of them. Love? Why had that popped into his head?
“You do not know who you love.”
He spun about in a swirl of water. Aviendha stood on the bank, in cadin’sor rather than skirt and blouse. Not glaring, though, just looking. “Come into the water,” he said. “I’ll teach you how to swim.”
Musical laughter pulled his head around to the opposite bank. The woman who stood there, palely naked, was the most beautiful he had ever seen, with big, dark eyes that made his head whirl. He thought he knew her.
“Should I allow you to be unfaithful to me, even in your dreams?” she said. Somehow he was aware without looking that Elayne and Min and Aviendha were not there anymore., This was beginning to feel very odd.
For a long moment she considered him, completely unconscious of her nudity. Slowly she posed on toe tips, arms swept back, then dove cleanly into the pond. When her head popped above the surface, her shining black hair was not wet. That seemed surprising, for a moment. Then she had reached him—had she swum, or was she just there?—tangling arms and legs around him. The water was cool, her flesh hot.
“You cannot escape me,” she murmured. Those dark eyes seemed far deeper than the pond. “I will make you enjoy this so you never forget, asleep or awake.”
Asleep or . . . ? Everything shifted, blurred. She wrapped herself around him tighter, and the blur went away. Everything was as it had been. Rushes filled one end of the pond; leatherleaf and pine grew almost to the water’s edge at the other.
“I know you,” he said slowly. He thought he must, or why would he be letting her do this? “But I don’t . . . This is not right.” He tried to pull her loose, but as fast as he pried an arm away, she had it back again.
“I ought to mark you.” There was a fierce edge in her voice. “First that milk-hearted Ilyena and now . . . How many women do you hold in your thoughts?” Suddenly her small white teeth burrowed at his neck.
Bellowing, he hurled her away and slapped a hand to his neck. She had broken the skin; he was bleeding.
“Is this how you amuse yourself when I wonder where you have gone?” a man’s voice said contemptuously. “Why should I hold to anything when you risk our plan this way?”
Abruptly the woman was on the bank, clothed in white, narrow waist belted in wide woven silver, silver stars and crescents in her midnight hair. The land rose slightly behind her to an ash grove on a mound. He did not remember seeing ash before. She was facing—a blur. A thick, gray, man-sized fuzzing of the air. This was all . . . wrong, somehow.
“Risk,” she sneered. “You fear risk as much as Moghedien, don’t you? You would creep about like the Spider herself. Had I not hauled you out of your hole, you’d still be hiding, and waiting to snatch a few scraps.”
“If you cannot control your . . . appetites,” the blur said in the man’s voice, “why should I associate with you at all? If I must take risks, I want a greater reward than pulling strings on a puppet.”
“What do you mean?” she said dangerously.
The blur shimmered; somehow Rand knew it for hesitation, uncertainty over having said too much. And then suddenly the blur was gone. The woman looked at him, still neck-deep in the pond; her mouth tightened with irritation, and she vanished.

It is in this 'Dream' of Rand's, where Lanfear sees Aviendha along side of Min, Elayne in the water. This spotting of Aviendha in Rand's dream, is enough cause for Lanfear to later 'mark' the silver necklace of Kandori snowflakes in the Aiel Waste. Remember Lanfear as Keille Shaogi has already seen Aviendha within Rand's own prior dream...so what do you expect her to do, when Lanfear sees her next to Rand again? Lanfear already 'marked' Rand twice....

Besides Lanfear should expect three women going after the Dragon Reborn's heart, if she heard Min speaking out loud:

“It’s all your fault,” she told Rand’s still shape. “No, it isn’t. But you will pay for it, I think. We’re all caught like flies in a spiderweb. What if I told her there’s another woman yet to come, one she doesn’t even know? For that matter, what would you think of that, my fine Lord Shepherd? You aren’t bad-looking at all, but . . . Light, I don’t even know if I am the one you’ll choose. I don’t know if I want you to choose me. Or will you try to dandle all three of us on your knee? It may not be your fault, Rand al’Thor, but it isn’t fair.”
“Not Rand al’Thor,” said a musical voice from the door. “Lews Therin Telamon. The Dragon Reborn.”

Rand's 'Dreams' of three women, combined with overhearing Min's outburst in Falme, are cause enough for Lanfear to mark the silver necklace Egwene bought for Aviendha (TFoH,Ch7). If Rand was not able to 'Dream' dreams, the whole story would of had a different unfolding across all the volumes. Let alone if Lanfear knew of Rand's prior 1st 'Dream' of Min, Elayne swimming in tSR,Ch.2 and Egwene sadly walking away.

Now I will say that perhaps the Moridin sitdown in chapter 15 of TGS was actually inside of Moridin's dream rather than inside of TAR, but the effect is the same. That is a possibility... either way, whether it was in TAR or Rand simply 'dream hooked' himself into Moridin's dream, Rand still needs the Talent.

Ishamael has actually repeatedly pointed out to Rand, that they are connected together...but Rand repeatedly ignores or disbelieves the reality of the "bond" between themselves:

"We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

Yuri33
12-23-2009, 11:20 PM
Just because someone briefly does something or has a prophetic dream does not make them something or that it can be learned. I can breifly and randomly hit a clear note, there is not any amount of training in the world that is going to make me singer.

When there is evidence for training devices I believe the ability is more mundane. You can still train to be a singer, but not necessarily a good one. And I never said anything about prophetic Dreaming being a teachable skill, only dreamwalking. The two are separate.

A lot of these one offs could be the pattern nugging things to correct itself. Why can't the pattern uses dreams to help someone make the decision that needs to be made. Its going to use subtle things to nudge where it needs to go. Its not going to let things go in a certain way, then go "Sorry, you need to be over here, or doing this." then have a giant hand come down and move them to where they should be and doing what they should be.

There's nothing one of about dreamwalking. Every one of the Forsaken can do it, even if they are bad at it (Asan'gar). Aviendha, who has no evidence of a Dreaming Talent, is being (slowly) trained to dreamwalk. Saying "the Pattern did it" is one of those fall backs that many people argue, but when there's a simpler answer (with evidence), then it is not necessary.

Ieyasu
12-24-2009, 01:26 PM
@Moridin/Rand connection:

I am not disputing that a connect exists between them.

I am disputing that it was done by choice by Moridin and that he appears to Rand at will. Moridin himself does not understand this connection, and as seen by his reactions, he isn't pleased by it. It is not something he is intentionally doing to impose himself on Rands consciousness.

I took Felix's assertation to mean Moridin was
intentionally invading Rand's mind "at will". This is false, and no evidence in the book supports that this connection was intentionally established, nor is there any evidence that either Rand or Moridin are in control of it.



When there is evidence for training devices I believe the ability is more mundane. You can still train to be a singer, but not necessarily a good one. And I never said anything about prophetic Dreaming being a teachable skill, only dreamwalking. The two are separate.

To date, of every single person we have seen who has used the training devices, only one has been able to enter TAR unaided, and Egwene is Talented. There is no evidence that the ability to enter TAR without the aid of a sleepweaver.

I am not so sure that everyone/anyone can learn to enter TAR unaided. Given the propensity of channeling and the frequency of these devices (I think this is the most common type of ter'angreal that we have seen in the series), I lean towards many people being trained and able to use TAR, they just access it through Traveling gateway or perhaps a standing flow.

Then again, maybe it does allow ppl to also learn to enter unaided... but we have not seen anyone do so as of yet, which is why I question it.

There's nothing one of about dreamwalking. Every one of the Forsaken can do it, even if they are bad at it (Asan'gar). Aviendha, who has no evidence of a Dreaming Talent, is being (slowly) trained to dreamwalk. Saying "the Pattern did it" is one of those fall backs that many people argue, but when there's a simpler answer (with evidence), then it is not necessary.

Not every Wiseone can Dreamwalk... which is another reason why I question it. If anyone can learn to do so, how come every single Wiseone is not also a Dreamwalker? Do the Wiseones just randomly pick and choose which of the other Wiseones that they will teach to Dreamwalk?

Terez
12-24-2009, 03:36 PM
Not every Wiseone can Dreamwalk... which is another reason why I question it. If anyone can learn to do so, how come every single Wiseone is not also a Dreamwalker? Do the Wiseones just randomly pick and choose which of the other Wiseones that they will teach to Dreamwalk?
Not randomly at all - they choose those who have the Talent, and probably don't even realize that non-Talented channelers can be trained to do it, since, after all, they don't have training ter'angreal.

GonzoTheGreat
12-24-2009, 03:43 PM
I think that there is a bit somewhere where Aviendha remarks that she has basically no talent for it; that she can only enter TAR if a Dreamwalker takes here there. I haven't managed to find it, though. Perhaps if someone did a word search on 'Aviendha' ...

Terez
12-24-2009, 06:04 PM
Yeah, that's a hard-ish one to find, but I remember it - she can only go there with a ter'angreal, though. The Wise Ones don't know a way to take someone there, other than pulling them out of their dreams, which is considered to be evil.

reTaardad
12-25-2009, 12:37 AM
I think that there is a bit somewhere where Aviendha remarks that she has basically no talent for it; that she can only enter TAR if a Dreamwalker takes here there. I haven't managed to find it, though. Perhaps if someone did a word search on 'Aviendha' ...
I had to do a little bit of digging, but I knew exactly what you were talking about.

The Shadow Rising
Chapter 50: Traps

"The Wise Ones are taking turns watching over you from outside. They meant to continue watching from..." She trailed off, her face reddening.

"From where?" She only stared at him, her face growing more and more crimson. "Aviendha, from wh─?" Dreamwalkers. Why had it never occurred to him? "From inside my dreams," he said harshly. "How long have they been spying inside my head?"

She let out a long, heavy breath. "I was not supposed to let you know. If Bair finds out─Seana said it was too dangerous tonight. I do not understand it: I cannot enter the dream without one of them to help me. Something dangerous tonight is all I know. That is why they are taking turns at the door to this roof. They are all worried.

Now I need to send everyone else on a search through The Dragon Reborn. There's a line where Egwene enters TAR for the first time without the ring. I can't explain what I'm trying to say very well, but I think that she tries to duplicate the sensation of falling asleep with the ring in order to reach TAR. Maybe that's what the sleepweavers were used for: show students the basics of TAR, how to manipulate it, and teach them methods of entering without assistance. Perhaps, once they have gained enough experience and are familiar with the passage into TAR, the dreamer (notice the lowercase) is able to psychologically insert themselves into the World of Dreams.

wolframbohr2
12-25-2009, 01:10 AM
If dreamwalking is so mundane and anyone can learn it, they why did it not survive the breaking? Th enumber of people who can do it would be greater than the number of AS that survived and they re-grouped themselves. Why did the AS that survive not teach it to their future puples if it was mundane? Why did they not reconise any of the aids that can help since it would seem anyone and their brother can do it and the training devices would be sold at ehir eqivalent of the dollar store?

Will any rare abilities have training devices?

reTaardad
12-25-2009, 01:24 AM
If dreamwalking is so mundane and anyone can learn it, they why did it not survive the breaking? Th enumber of people who can do it would be greater than the number of AS that survived and they re-grouped themselves. Why did the AS that survive not teach it to their future puples if it was mundane? Why did they not reconise any of the aids that can help since it would seem anyone and their brother can do it and the training devices would be sold at ehir eqivalent of the dollar store?

Will any rare abilities have training devices?
I think Traveling is the most useful thing we've seen so far, but it was lost during the Breaking. Dreaming is, by far, much less useful than Traveling and Skimming and required (for non-Dreamers) special ter'angreal in order to reach TAR.

And as for it being mundane or simple, I doubt it'd be a cake walk. I assume that for Egwene and the Wise One Dreamwalkers, entering TAR comes naturally for them because of their Talent. Aviendha, on the other hand, can't do it at all without the ring or the help of another dreamwalker.

Terez
12-25-2009, 01:25 AM
Traveling is pretty easy to teach - why was that lost?

I guess it's not evil to pull someone into Tel'aran'rhiod from their dreams so long as they agree to it beforehand.

Weird Harold
12-25-2009, 01:28 AM
If dreamwalking is so mundane and anyone can learn it, they why did it not survive the breaking? Th enumber of people who can do it would be greater than the number of AS that survived and they re-grouped themselves. Why did the AS that survive not teach it to their future puples if it was mundane? Why did they not reconise any of the aids that can help since it would seem anyone and their brother can do it and the training devices would be sold at ehir eqivalent of the dollar store?

Will any rare abilities have training devices?

I'm not sure I would go so far as to say anyone can learn to dreamwalk, but I would guess it wasn't a terribly popular skill for non-channelers to learn.

In a lot of ways, Dreamwalking in the WOT is like Lucid Dreaming (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Lucid+Dreaming&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&oq=Lucid+Dreaming&fp=1) in the real world -- nearly anyone can learn the concentration and techniques of lucid dreaming but it does require the ability to concentrate and relax at the same time and some people just can't master that trick.

I don't think it was a case of the vast majority being unable to Dreamwalk/Lucid Dream, but a case of the vast majority not wanting to be bothered learning to Dreamwalk/Lucid Dream.

GonzoTheGreat
12-25-2009, 04:11 AM
Most people had other things to worry about during the Breaking, so a lot of things were not taught systematically anymore. And if your teaching is based on "maybe this generation, maybe not", then things will be forgotten.
Combine that with the AS tendency towards secrecy, and it is fairly easy to see why it was lost.

dukescott
12-28-2009, 06:24 PM
Rand meets at least two tSR Glossary definitions of being a 'Dreamer':

(#2) - He entered the Dream World in the flesh to kill Rahvin.
(#2) - He spies on Siuan and the Salidar Ajah Heads commanding Egwene to return to them in Salidar, in the TAR.
(#2) - He almost kills Perrin in within a 'Dream' (tDR,Ch.36)


All of these involve Rand Travelling to TAR. If this is used as an example of Dreamwalking then all channeler's are Dreamers. This is just silly.

(#3) - He Dreamed of the future, a darkfriend with a dagger attempting to kill himself in Tear, White Tower leash ahead (Mesaana & Dumai Wells).

I don't recall this sequence. Do you have a quote?

(#3) - He dreams true about his future relationship with Min, Elayne, Aviendha.

He dreamed twice about this. The first time was just Min and Elayne. This was before he met Aviendha. The second time was all three. Neither reflects the future (or both dreams would have had all three). They just reflect his desire to be with them. The same way people dream of their wife / husband.

The Rand / Morodin situation may not prove anything either. Ishmael repeatedly pulled Matt, Perrin, and Rand into TAR. When Rand sees Morodin's face "in colors" it doesn't have anything to do with dreaming any more than the connection to Perrin and Matt.

Someone needs to ask Brandon about this to resolve this once and for all.

Ieyasu
12-29-2009, 12:47 AM
All of these involve Rand Travelling to TAR. If this is used as an example of Dreamwalking then all channeler's are Dreamers. This is just silly.

Negative. The dreams about Perrin and Egwene, both, were before he drew Callandar. Both times he was in TAR via the normal sleep method. There are a few other dreams that he did so as well, all from the beginning of the series... in particular, on his solo romp to Tear.

He hasnt got to TAR without being there in the flesh since he learned to ward his dreams from Asmo. This dream in TGS with Moridin is the first time we know of since early in the series that he is in TAR without being there in the flesh. Though it is debatible whether or not this is TAR or Moridin's dream imo.

reTaardad
12-29-2009, 12:51 AM
Negative. The dreams about Perrin and Egwene, both, were before he drew Callandar. Both times he was in TAR via the normal sleep method. There are a few other dreams that he did so as well, all from the beginning of the series... in particular, on his solo romp to Tear.In tDR, I'm pretty sure Rand was being pulled into TAR by Ishamael. He was talking about people sent to kill him that he knew; he even tried to kill Egwene because she showed up in his dream. And then, of course, the Perrin episode where he nearly got balefired.

Ieyasu
12-29-2009, 01:28 AM
In tDR, I'm pretty sure Rand was being pulled into TAR by Ishamael. He was talking about people sent to kill him that he knew; he even tried to kill Egwene because she showed up in his dream. And then, of course, the Perrin episode where he nearly got balefired.

That works for the dreams in which Ishmael and Lanfear were present in, as they both did so, but I do not believe either one of them just pulled him into TAR to send Shadow spawn after him in the world of dreams. Infact, I do not believe the shadowspawn he killed there were even real shadowspawn, I think they were nightmares that he himself created much like the one the rebel AS did in the tower.

In any event, I will not believe Ishmael or Lanfear ever pulled him into TAR without being present in his dream. I do not believe there is any evidence that they ever did so without having appeared in his dreams.

FelixPax
12-29-2009, 08:20 AM
Here's a very short nutshell, (#A) Dreaming or Dreamwalking in any of the three known ways, does not require any channeling at all. (#B) The 'Power' is basically an aid to creating the necessary "picturing" of an "image" to enter a 3rd Constant place-- a person's dream, a mirror image of a physical location, foretelling the future via an interpreted 'Dream', healing others by 'Dream' et la. (place is loosely defined) (#C) "Picturing" is the key, to mastery of oneself within the 3rd Constant.



Talents:
Abilities in the use of the One Power in specific areas. The best known of these is Healing. Some, such as Traveling, the ability to shift from one place to another without crossing the intervening space, have been lost. Others such as Foretelling (the ability to foretell future events, but in a general way) are now found only rarely if at all. Another Talent long thought lost is Dreaming, which involves, among other things, interpreting the Dreamer’s dreams to foretell future events in more specific fashion than Foretelling does. Some Dreamers had the ability to enter Tel’aran’rhiod, the World of Dreams, and (it is said) even other people’s dreams. The last known Dreamer was Corianin Nedeal (coh-ree-AHN-ihn neh-dee-AHL), who died in 526 NE, but there is now another, known to but a few.

The complete glossary text brings the entire entry into question IMO. The fact that it refers to Talents as "abilities in the use of the One Power" clearly conflicts with what Bair states:

It is not a thing of the One Power, though Aes Sedai believe it is.

Well, yes there seems to be an apparent contradiction between tSR Glossary’s first sentence and Bair’s own definition what is required to enter the Dream World, as Dreamer (Aes Sedai wording) or Dreamwalker (Aiel wording). However this is a false contradiction based on other prior event outcomes in the series, which do indicate that the Talent of “Dreaming” is separate and different mechanism from Channeling. Although one can also enter the Dream World by channeling, it is because an individual and/or ter’angreal (Hedgehog) can create a “picture” of an entrance to the Dream World via the use of Spirit with either the One Power or True Power. I hold that Bair is correct here, not the channeling limitations imposed by first sentence of the tSR Glossary, in relation to the Talent of Dreaming. Active channeling is not required at all to be a Dreamer, or to fully enter the Dream World by any of the three commonly known definitions of it.


There are a few good examples in the series of this false contradiction in the series, (#1)when Egwene shields Joiya Byir within the Stone of Tear, while each is active in the Dream World. Joiya Byir was using a minor sleeping ter’angreal to enter the Dream World, which required the active use of Spirit being weaved to work. Yet, Egwene al’Vere shields Joiya cutting off her access to the saider, which should have pushed her out of the Dream World.

Egwene smiled at her. “Are you certain you will wake, Darkfriend (Joiya Byir)? If your ter’angreal requires channeling, why did you not wake as soon as I shielded you? Perhaps you cannot wake so long as you are shielded here.” Her smile faded away; the effort of smiling at this woman was more than she could bear. “A woman (Verin Sedai) once showed me a scar she received in Tel’aran’rhiod, Darkfriend. What happens here is still real when you wake.”


(#2) Next Egwene al’Vere finds Amico Nagoyin, who was half-asleep, “Dreaming” and cuts off her weave to the True Source in the Dreaming World:

The wavering shape of the Darkfriend appeared again, and Egwene struck out with the flows of Air and Spirit. For an instant something seemed to resist the weaving of Spirit, and she forced it with all of her might. It slid into place.
Amico Nagoyin screamed. It was a thin sound, barely heard, as faint as she herself was, and she seemed almost like a shadow of what Joiya Byir had been. Yet the bonds woven of Air held her; she did not vanish again. Terror twisted the Darkfriend’s lovely face; she seemed to be babbling, but her shouts were whispers too soft for Egwene to understand.

Question, arising out of #1 & #2:

If channel Spirit alone is required to enter and remain within the Dreaming World, for beginners using minor sleepweavers requiring some channeling ability (amber plaque, iron disc); why did not both Joiya and Amico immediately exit the “Dreaming World” when Egwene al’Vere shielded each of them??

She stared at the other two women. “I bound her. I shielded her. She is a living thing, not lifeless iron. She must be shielded still.”
“Something has happened to the shield set on us,” Elayne said, “but Amico is still managing to hold it.”


(#3) It is strange that Amico has been shielded by a weave done to freeze almost all of her body movements within the Dream World, awake world and then have the weave tied off. Yet the shielding of Amico from the saidar was not totally complete, as the remaining active the shielding upon Elayne, Egwene & Nynaeve was still active in the real awake world. However, Amico was not able to make new weaves to stop Mat and Juilin from freeing the three girls from their prison cell in the Stone of Tear, either. If Amico could of, she would of have stopped Mat, Juilin—not have begged for aid instead.

“Help me,” she said faintly. Her (Amico Nagoyin) eyes still looked nearly asleep, but the pleading in her voice was fully awake. “Help me. Please!”

Mat blinked. She still had not moved a muscle below her neck. Cautiously, he stepped closer, waving to Sandar to stop his groaning about her being Aes Sedai. She moved her head to follow him. No more than that.


(#4) ‘No active Spirit’ should have meant ‘no Dream World’ for to Amico. But Amico remained in the Dream World even after her ter’angreal sleepweaver was removed by Egwene. She only then fully shut her eyes, to fully enter the Tel’aran’rhiod after Nynaeve punched, and knocked her off the bench completely. Thus, breaking the shielding weaving placed upon the three girls finally, because Amico was in fact shielded from the One Power in the Tel’aran’rhiod by Egwene’s prior tied off weave.


The three women limped after him into the hall, but they stopped around the woman on the bench. She (Amico) rolled her eyes at them and whimpered. “Please. I will come back to the Light. I will swear to obey you. With the Oath Rod in my hands I will swear. Please do not—”

Mat jumped as Nynaeve suddenly reared back and swung a fist, knocking the woman completely off the bench. She (Amico) lay there, her eyes closed all the way finally, but even lying on her side she was still in exactly the same position she had been in on the bench.

“It is gone,” Elayne said excitedly.

Egwene bent to rummage in the unconscious woman’s pouch, transferring something Mat could not make out to her own (Amico's dream ter'angreal). “Yes. It feels wonderful. Something changed about her when you hit her, Nynaeve. I do not know what, but I felt it.”

Elayne nodded. “I felt it, too.”

(#5a) Both Joiya and Amico remained in the ‘Dream World’ after no ‘Spirit’ was available to either of them.

Those minor sleepweaver ter’angreals are in essence aids to reaching the ‘Dream World’, a type of focusing mechanism. Somewhat similar to the stone Moiraine used to aid her focus in creating an easedropping weave to listen to distance or hidden conversations by others.


(#5b) Additionally, how could of Amico continued of held an active shielding on all three girls –Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene—in the awake world, after Egwene had stilled her during the Shielding process in the Dream World?

Joiya’s fellow prisoner, her sister in the Black Ajah, lacked her strength. Standing stoop-shouldered at the far end of the table, head down, Amico Nagoyin seemed to sink in on herself under Egwene’s gaze. There was no need to shield her. Amico had been stilled during her capture. Still able to sense the True Source, she would never again touch it, never again channel. The desire to, the need to, would remain, as sharp as the need to breathe, and her loss would be there for as long as she lived, saidar forever out of reach. Egwene wished she could find in herself even a shred of pity. But she did not wish for it very hard.

Amico murmured something at the tabletop.

“What?” Nynaeve demanded. “Speak up.”

Amico raised her face humbly on its slender neck. She was still a beautiful woman, with large, dark eyes, but there was something different about her that Egwene could not quite put her finger on. Not the fear that made her clutch her coarse prisoner’s dress with both hands. Something else.



(#6a) In contrast, when a disguised Lanfear as Silvie pulled off Egwene’s twisted ring, once in the Stone of Tear and she immediately exited the Dream World.

Egwene was already backing in among the columns, and Silvie followed, flapping her hands and waving her stick. “I am going, Silvie. I just have to remember the way.” She fingered the stone ring. “Take me back to the hills.” Nothing happened: She channeled a hairlike flow to the ring. “Take me back to the hills.” The redstone columns still surrounded her. The boots were closer, close enough not to be swallowed in their own echoes anymore.

“You don’t know the way out,” Sylvie said flatly, then went on in a near whisper, ingratiating and mocking at once, an old retainer who felt she could take liberties. “Oh, my Lady, this is a dangerous place to come into, if you don’t know the way out. Come, let poor old Silvie take you out. Poor old Silvie will tuck you safe in your bed, my Lady.” She wrapped both arms around Egwene, urging her further from the sword. Not that Egwene needed much urging. The boots had stopped; he—whoever he was—was probably gazing at Callandor.

“Just show me the way,” Egwene whispered back. “Or tell me. There’s no need to push.” The old woman’s fingers had somehow gotten tangled around the stone ring. “Don’t touch that, Silvie.”
“Safe in your bed.”

Pain annihilated the world.

(#6b) Why did removing the “twisted stone ring” sleepweaver pull Egwene out of the Dream World?

I think it is because Egwene believed and “pictured” herself being within the Tel’aran’rhiod as being dependent upon the twisted stone ring in a specific location—against her skin. Moving the location of that sleepweaver ter’angreal broke her connection to ter’aran’rhiod because it broke her belief and “picture” of herself there.

Lanfear knew Egwene was a beginner and clueless, in the Tel’aran’rhiod. She made a good guess, I think, about how to kick Egwene out of the Tel’aran’rhiod by removing the twisted stone ring from her skin.


(#7) Additionally, we have an awake world example, of when Elayne’s Traveling gateway exposed killing many Seanchan soldiers, sul’dam and damane at the Kin’s Farm north of Ebou Dar. Immediately when Elayne was shielded from the 'Power' that active weave was cut:

In the meadow, a sul’dam pointed, and time seemed to slow for Elayne. The glow of the One Power sprang up around the woman’s damane. Elayne could see the weave forming. She knew what it was. And there was no way to stop it. “Faster!” she shouted. The shield struck her. She should have been too strong for it—she should have been!—but exhausted as she was, barely clinging to saidar as she was, it sliced between her and the Source. Down in the meadow, the weave that had been a gateway fell in on itself. Haggard, looking as though she could not possibly move, Aviendha hurled herself from her saddle at Elayne, carrying them both off. Elayne had just time to see the far slope of the hill below her as she fell.

The air turned white, blanking her sight. There was sound—she knew there was sound, a great roar—but it lay beyond hearing. Something struck her, as if she had fallen from a rooftop onto hard pavement, from a tower top.

Her eyes opened, staring at the sky. The sky looked, strange somehow, blurry. For a moment she could not move, and when she did, she gasped. She hurt everywhere. Oh, Light, she hurt! Slowly she raised a hand to her face; her fingers came away red. Blood. The others. She had to help the others. She could feel Birgitte, feel pain as bad as what gripped her, but at least Birgitte was alive. And determined, and angry apparently; she could not be injured too badly. Aviendha.


(#8) Here is Bair’s full explanation of the Tel’aran’rhiod to Egwene:

“Almost anyone can touch Tel’aran’rhiod, but few can truly enter it. Of all the Wise Ones, we four alone can dreamwalk, and your Tower has not produced a dreamwalker in nearly five hundred years. It is not a thing of the One Power, though Aes Sedai believe it is. I cannot channel, nor can Seana, yet we dreamwalk as well as Amys or Melaine. Many people brush the World of Dreams in their sleep. Because they only brush against it, they wake with aches or pains where they should have broken bones or mortal hurts. A dreamwalker enters the dream fully, therefore her injuries are real on waking. For one who is fully in the dream, dreamwalker or not, death there is death here. To enter the dream too completely, though, is to lose touch with the flesh; there is no way back, and the flesh dies. It is said that once there were those who could enter the dream in the flesh, and no longer be in this world at all. This was an evil thing, for they did evil; it must never be attempted, even if you believe it possible for you, for each time you will lose some part of what makes you human. You must learn to enter Tel’aran’rhiod when you wish, to the degree you wish. You must learn to find what you need to find and read what you see, to enter the dreams of another close by in order to aid healing, to recognize those who are in the dream fully enough to harm you, to . . . ”

(#8b)I find it highly interesting, that Bair as a non-channeler can "enter the dreams of another close by in order to aid healing". In essence, changing an possible outcome of the pattern by manipulating the 3rd Constant without any use of the 'Power'.

This is somewhat paralleled by 'Horn of Valere' doing the very opposite of healing, when the Heros of the Horn are called back from the 3rd Constant to push back the Hornblower's enemies at Falme (and Shadow), and to aid in the process of protecting Egwene from harm.

I do not recall the 'Horn of Valere' using the 'Power' to reach the Heroes of the Horn, either. And Mat hasn't shown any dreaming talent in the series of any type nor channeling abilities, I know of. Although he has entered the other worlds of the Aelfinn, Eelfinn for what that's worth in post-Falme scenes.



(#9a) Later Egwene’s journey to Salidar via the Tel’aran’rhiod in the flesh is yet another example; however notice how she thinks about the process of using saidar to create an image:

Nervously rubbing her fingers over her palms, she embraced saidar, letting it fill her. And shifted her feet. Saidar made you more aware of everything, including your own body, which she would just as soon have missed right then. Trying something new, something no one had ever tried before that she knew, should have been done slowly and carefully, but for once she wanted to be rid of the Source. She channeled briskly, flows of Spirit, woven just so.

The air shimmered in the middle of the tent along her weave, cloaking the other side in mistiness. If she was right, she had just created a place where the interior of her tent was so similar to its reflection in Tel’aran’rhiod that there was no difference at all right there. One was the other. But there was only one way to be sure.

Tossing the saddlebags over her shoulder, she took the bundle under one arm and stepped through the weave, then let go of saidar.

She was in Tel’aran’rhiod. All it took to tell her was that the lamps that had been lit were no longer burning, yet there was a sort of light. Things moved slightly between one glance and the next, the washbasin, a chest. She was in Tel’aran’rhiod in the flesh. It felt no different than when she came in a dream.

She ducked outside. A three-quarter moon shone down on tents where no fire burned and no one moved, on a Cairhien that seemed oddly distant and clouded in shadow. All that remained was the problem of actually getting to Salidar. She had thought about that. A great deal depended on whether she had as much control in the flesh as when she was part of the World of Dreams.

Fixing in her mind what she would find, she walked around the tent—and smiled. There stood Bela, the short shaggy mare she had ridden out of the Two Rivers a lifetime ago. Only a dream-Bela, but the stout mare tossed her nose and whickered at sight of her.

(#9b) Yes, Egwene uses saidar to enter, exit the Tel’aran’rhiod in the flesh, however she too seems to be very close to taking the route that Nynaeve did once during her Accepted Test by exiting a Dream World in the flesh by “picturing” an Arch (tGH, Ch.23 “The Testing”). The use of ‘power’ is simply an aid to enter, exit the Tel’aran’rhiod in the flesh, it is not required nor the only way to reach the 3rd Constant.



(#10) On a different topic, Perrin during a Wolf Dream interacted with an unknown Male Dreamer (Sharan?), just before walking into Lanfear’s Dream palace (Southern Sharan port town?):

Other hallways crossed the one he ran along, at odd angles, sometimes descending, sometimes climbing. None looked any different from the passage he was in, though. Damp stone walls unbroken by doors, and strips of darkness.
As he came on one of those crossing halls, he skidded to a halt. A man stood there, blinking at him uncertainly, in strangely cut coat and breeches, the coat flaring over his hips as the bottoms of the breeches flared over his boots. Both were bright yellow, and his boots were only a little paler.

“This is more than I can stand,” the man said, to himself, not Perrin. He had an odd accent, quick and sharp. “Not only do I dream of peasants, now, but foreign peasants, from those clothes. Begone from my dreams, fellow!”

“Who are you?” Perrin asked. The man’s eyebrows rose as if he were offended.

The strips of shadow around them writhed. One detached from the ceiling at one end and drifted down to touch the strange man’s head. It appeared to tangle in his hair. The man’s eyes widened, and everything seemed to happen at once. The shadow jerked back to the ceiling, ten feet overhead, trailing something pale. Wet drops splattered Perrin’s face. A bone-rattling shriek shattered the air.

Frozen, Perrin stared at the bloody shape wearing the man’s clothes, screaming and thrashing on the floor. Unbidden, his eyes rose to the pale thing like an empty sack that dangled from the ceiling. Part of it was already absorbed by the black strip, but he had no trouble recognizing a human skin, apparently whole and unbroken.


(#11) There are more than 6 individuals, non-Chosen’s, walking about the 3rd Constant—“Dream World”. Even three of the Aiel Dreamwalkers mention seeing males in there, too:

“If the Shadowsouled meant to threaten us,” Melaine said, “I think they would have by now. Perhaps they believe we are no threat to them.”

“We have glimpsed those who must be dreamwalkers, including men.” Bair shook her head incredulously; no matter what she knew about the Forsaken, she considered male dreamwalkers about as common as legs on snakes. “They avoid us. All of them.”

“I think we are as strong as they,” Amys added. In the One Power, she and Melaine were no stronger than Theodrin and Faolain—far from weak, indeed stronger than most Aes Sedai, but far from a Forsaken’s strength, too—yet in the World of Dreams, knowledge of Tel’aran’rhiod was often as powerful as saidar, more at times. Here, Bair was the equal of any sister. “But we will take care. It is the enemy you underestimate who kills you.”