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View Full Version : The detail from 4-6, and Ghenjei


Terez
12-26-2009, 09:06 PM
I am excited about this plotline, and I wonder about some things that are prophesied to go down at Ghenjei. One of them might be a decent candidate for the detail from 4-6. I know I've brought it up before, but in general, I get a lot of scorn when I suggest that Mat really will become property of the Empress. I know it hasn't been discussed much in the time that I've been on Theoryland, but we're not assuming that Brandon has perfect searching skills here anyway.

In book 4, we learn that the property of the Imperial family is marked with raven tattoos on the shoulders:

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 38 - Hidden Faces

Smiling with silent amusement, he removed his coat, unlaced his shirt and stripped it off. On either shoulder was the tattoo of raven and tower.

Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.
This little context story about the lord and lady is rather important, I think. Egwene has a dream about Mat in book 6:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER 15 - A Pile of Sand

Perrin came and stood before her, a wolf lying at his feet, a hawk and a falcon perched on his shoulders glaring at each other over his head. Seemingly unaware of them, he kept trying to throw away that axe of his, until finally he ran, the axe floating through the air, chasing him. Again Perrin; he turned away from a Tinker and ran, faster and faster though she called for him to come back. Mat spoke strange words she almost understood – the Old Tongue, she thought – and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them than Perrin had been of the hawk and falcon, yet defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance. In another a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous. Several concerned Rand, not all bad, but all odd. Elayne, forcing him to his knees with one hand. Elayne and Min and Aviendha, sitting in a silent circle around him, each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him. Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One’s prison, shattering with his every step. She knew it. She did not need to see them to know.
There is a slight reference to it in the next book:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 17 - The Triumph of Logic

"Poor little mite," Corevin muttered, twisting to see whether the bandages would stay in place. He had a leopard and a boar inked on one arm, a lion and a woman on the other. The woman did not seem to be wearing much except her hair. "Sniveling, he was. Though he did brighten when Leral let him hold her hand." The men all looked after Olver like a gaggle of uncles, though certainly the sort no mother would want near her son.

"He’ll live," Mat said dryly. The boy was probably picking up these habits from his "uncles." Next, they would give him a tattoo. At least Olver had not sneaked out to run with the street children; he seemed to enjoy that almost as much as he did making himself a nuisance to grown women.
And of course, Olver's bad behavior is one of RJ's long-running themes, because he mostly picks up his behavior from Mat, whom he idolizes, and Mat blames it on the 'uncles'.

Then we learn a little more about the raven tattoos in book 8, with the Deathwatch Guard, who wear them proudly:

TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle

According to the tales he had heard as a child, one of his ancestors, a noble, had followed Luthair Paendrag to Seanchan at Artur Hawkwing’s command, but two hundred years later, with only the north secure, another ancestor tried to carve out a kingdom of his own and ended sold from the block instead. Perhaps it was so; many da’covale claimed noble ancestors. Among themselves, at least; few of the Blood found such chatter amusing. In any case, Karede had felt lucky when the Choosers picked him out, a sturdy boy not yet old enough to be assigned duties, and he still felt pride in the ravens tattooed on his shoulders. Many Deathwatch Guards went without coat or shirt whenever possible, to display those. The humans, anyway. Ogier Gardeners were not marked or owned, but that was between them and the Empress.
This is particularly important because Mat formed a bond with the Deathwatch Guard in Knife of Dreams, as he collaborated with them to destroy the traitor army and get Tuon to safety. Some might say that Egwene's dream was metaphorically fulfilled then.

Also interesting is that, in the quote above about Mat's ravens, immediately after there is a woman beckoning him to monstrous danger. Could this be Moiraine? I can't think of any other way that Mat is more likely to get raven tattoos than at Ghenjei, where the 'Finns are tricksy. Maybe he will be desperate enough by then to ask them for something related to her....for her protection, or something else. Tuon would never have done it, despite the fact that she threatened to make him her cupbearer several times (and this would be more of the 'detail' in 'books and books' since 4-6). First, Semirhage suggests that Tuon buy him from Tylin, and Tuon thinks that's a wonderful idea:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 17 - Pink Ribbons

"The boy told you how he was injured," Anath said in frosty tones of command. "If you want him, then buy him and be done. The day has been long, and you should be in your bed."

Tuon paused, examining the long signet ring on his finger. It had been carved as a try-piece, to show the carver's skills, a running fox and two ravens in flight, all surrounded by crescent moons, and he had bought it by chance, though he had come to like it. He wondered whether she wanted it. Straightening, she stared up at his face. "Good advice, Anath," she said. "How much for him, Tylin? If he is a favorite, name your price, and I will double it."

Tylin choked on her wine and began coughing. Mat almost fell off his staff. The girl wanted to buy him? Well, she might as well have been looking at a horse for all the expression on her face.

"He is a free man, High Lady," Tylin said unsteadily when she could speak. "I ... I cannot sell him." Mat could have laughed, if Tylin did not sound as though she were trying to keep her teeth from chattering, if bloody Tuon had not just asked his price. A free man! Ha!
And thus were Mat and Tuon introduced. He thought several more times throughout that book about how she had wanted to buy him, including after he named her his wife. In the next book (with a 'Finn reference):

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 3 - A Fan of Colors

“I cannot say what I will do after returning to Ebou Dar, Toy. I have not decided. I may have you made da’covale. You are not pretty enough for a cupbearer, but it might please me to have you for one. Still, you have represented certain promises to me, so it pleases me now to promise, as well. So long as you keep your promises, I will neither escape nor betray you in any way, nor will I cause dissension among your followers. I believe that covers everything necessary.” This time, Mistress Anan gaped at her, and Selucia made a sound in her throat, but Tuon appeared not to notice either woman. She just looked at him expectantly, waiting on a response.

He made a sound in his throat, too. Not a whimper, just a sound. Tuon’s face was as smooth as a stern mask of dark glass. Her calm was madness, but this made gibbering look sane! She would have to be insane to think he would believe that offer. Except, he thought she did mean it. That, or she was a better liar than he ever hoped to be. Again he had that queasy sense that she knew more than he did. Ridiculous, of course, but there it was. He swallowed a lump in his throat. A hard lump.

“Well, that does all right for you,” he said, trying to buy time, “but what about Selucia?” Time for what? He could not think with those dice pounding in his skull.

“Selucia follows my wishes, Toy,” Tuon said impatiently. The blue-eyed woman herself straightened and stared at him as though indignant that he had doubted that. For a lady’s maid, she could look fierce when she tried.

Mat did not know what to say or do. Without thinking, he spat on his palm and offered his hand as if sealing a bargain on a horse.

“Your customs are… earthy,” Tuon said in a dry voice, but she spat on her own palm and clasped his hand. “‘Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.’ What does that writing on your spear mean, Toy?”

He did whimper this time, and not because she had read the Old Tongue inscription on his ashandarei. A bloody stone would have whimpered. The dice had stopped as soon as he touched her hand. Light, what had happened?

And again:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 29 - Something Flickers

“I have been ready for an hour, Toy,” Tuon drawled coolly. Casually lifting an edge of his cloak, she glanced at the red silk lining and eyed his coat before letting the cloak fall. “Lace suits you. Perhaps I will have lace added to your robes if I make you a cupbearer.”

His smile slipped for an instant. Could she still make him da’covale if she married him? He would have to ask Egeanin. Light, why did women never make it easy?
And in Knife of Dreams:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota

Tuon had so much spirit it seemed impossible it could fit into such a tiny woman. It was her silences that put a small damper on the day, more so than snakes or foxes. They were far away, and there was nothing to be done. She was right there beside him. and he had a great deal to do concerning her. She never alluded to what had happened with the three Aes Sedai. or to the sisters themselves either. She never mentioned his ter’angreal or the fact that whatever she had made Teslyn or Joline weave against him had failed. The night before might as well have been a dream.

She was like a general planning a battle, Setalle had said. Trained at intrigue and dissembling from infancy, according to Egeanin. And it was all aimed straight at him. But to what end? Surely it could not be some Seanchan Blood form of courting. Egeanin knew little of that, but surely not. He had known Tuon a matter of weeks and kidnapped her, she called him Toy. had tried to buy him, and only a vain fool could twist that into a woman falling in love. Which left anything from some elaborate scheme for revenge to. . . to the Light alone knew what. She had threatened to make him a cupbearer. That meant da’covale, according to Egeanin. though she had scoffed at the notion. Cupbearers were chosen for their beauty, and in Egeanin’s estimation, he fell far short. Well, in his own as well, truth to tell, not that he was likely to admit it to anybody. Any number of women had admired his face. Nothing said Tuon could not complete the marriage ceremony just to make him think himself home free and safe, then have him executed. Women were never simple, but Tuon made the rest look like children’s games.
And again:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 11 - A Hell in Maderin

Tuon nodded thoughtfully. “Your customs are often very peculiar, Toy. You will have to teach me about them. I have learned some, but I must know the customs of the people I will rule in the name of the Empress, may she live forever.”

“I’ll be glad to teach you what I can,” Mat said, unpinning his cloak and letting it fall carelessly over the low back of his chair. “It will be good for you to know our ways even if you end up ruling a sight less than you expect to.” He set his hat on the table.

Tuon and Selucia gasped as one, hands darting for the hat. Tuon’s reached it first, and she quickly put it on the chair next to her. “That is very bad luck. Toy. Never put a hat on a table.” She made one of those odd gestures for warding off evil, folding under the middle two fingers and extending the other two stiffly. Selucia did the same.

“I’ll remember that,’ he said dryly. Perhaps too dryly. Tuon gave him a level look. Very level.

“I have decided you will not do for a cupbearer, Toy. Not until you learn meekness, which I almost despair of teaching you. Perhaps I will make you a running groom, instead. You are good with horses. Would you like trotting at my stirrup when I ride? The robes are much the same as for a cupbearer, but I will have yours decorated with ribbons. Pink ribbons.”

He managed to maintain a smooth face, but he felt his cheeks growing hot. There was only one way she could know pink ribbons had any special significance to him. Tylin had told her. It had to be. Burn him, women would talk about anything’.
And again:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 37 - Prince of the Ravens

Pips stamped a hoof, impatient at standing in one place so long, and Mat patted his neck then scratched the scar forming on his own jaw. Tuon’s ointments had stung as badly as she had said they would, but they worked. His new collection of scars did itch yet, though. Tuon. His wife. He was married. He had known it was coming, had known for a long time, but just the same… Married. He should have felt… different… somehow, but he still felt like himself. He intended to keep it that way, burn him if he did not! If Tuon expected Mat Cauthon to settle down, to give up gambling or some such, she had another think coming. He supposed he would have to give over chasing after women, much less catching them, but he would still enjoy dancing with them. And looking at them. Just not when he was with her. Burn him if he knew when that would be. He was not about to go anywhere she had the upper hand, her and her talk of cupbearers and running grooms and marrying to serve the Empire. How was marrying him supposed to serve the flaming Empire?
It seems like it has been mentioned just a few too many times to be coincidence.

The da'covale system is doomed to fail, and so is the damane system. Mat would represent one, and Tuon the other.

Terez
12-26-2009, 09:13 PM
I posted about this at Dragonmount, and someone said that I didn't really explain where I thought this was going. So here is some more explaining:

The point is the truce. Tuon gave up any intention of meeting with Rand as an equal when she declared herself Empress. When she last saw Mat, shortly after she completed the marriage vows, they both gave each other vows that they would continue to be at odds on the battlefield. Tuon is by no means wounded after the Tower attack - she's gained the secret of Traveling. Rand's biggest military advantage just went out the window. The Tower was visibly damaged, the reputation of Tar Valon diminished, the proof of the Seanchan spread to the heart of Rand's east-north alliance, where Tuon claimed she would make her capital.

Tuon's pride against Rand's - whose do you think will win? Tuon has proven herself able to resist Rand's ta'veren pull, and unlike Egwene, she didn't need the Power to do it.

Mixed up in all this is Mat's pride. If anyone has the ability to wear those raven tattoos with pride, it's Mat. All through The Gathering Storm, he's worried about becoming husbandly....because he worries about Tuon's safety all the time, just as she wishes constantly throughout the book that Mat would come back to her, and take his rightful place among the Seanchan. She married to serve the Empire, after all. Mat would transcend the mark of ownership in some way, of course, but we saw with Tylin that, though he fought it, he eventually came to have some level of appreciation for Tylin's particular kink. Perhaps he will get a kick out of being owned. Or perhaps, like I suggested at the end of my Theoryland post, he will be the catalyst for the emancipation of the da'covale, while Tuon, a latent channeler, will be the catalyst for the emancipation of the damane. In any case, he will be a Deathwatch Guard with the tattoos, so perhaps he will become their leader. I can see the Deathwatch Guard remaining as an elite guard dedicated to the Empress, but not remaining property for long.

Also, it leads to Mat sporting an eye patch like a pirate (his price), and also going shirtless or at least sleeveless to show off his raven tattoos. Add the hat and the scarf and the ashan'darei, and all that's missing is the Harley.

wolframbohr2
12-26-2009, 11:48 PM
Interesting. I don't agree with it, but veryu interesting and well done.

What I think about the Ravens and the acceptence stuff is him marrying Tuon. He fought/fighting it, but will accept it in time. The ravens landing on him is him becomenig the Prince of Ravens by him marrying Tuon.

I don't have my books with me (at work atm) But something that could be added to your theory is the one dream (forget who's) of Mat giveing up half the light of the world for the other half. Could this be Mat getting the Seachan to stop their Return or stopping where they currently are by giving up being a Randlander and becoming property? Its late and I am still trying to wrap my head around the wording and stuff for it to make logical sence, so it might not be worded right.

An other more warped idea is, Mat snapping an a'dam around Tuon's neck. An emperess who is a damane would surely "plunge" Seachan into darkness (social upheaval if it gets out about women who can learn to channel) and save Randland from the Seachan at the same time.

His losing and eye, could this be metaphorical, where he turns a blind eye to Seanchan ways, more specifically how they treat women who can channel. He does have a soft spot for women.

Terez
12-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Interesting. I don't agree with it, but veryu interesting and well done.

What I think about the Ravens and the acceptence stuff is him marrying Tuon. He fought/fighting it, but will accept it in time. The ravens landing on him is him becomenig the Prince of Ravens by him marrying Tuon.
I might buy that if it weren't for the markings of the Imperial property, the shoulders in the dream, and the countless references to Tuon making him her da'covale.

The 'give up half the light of the world to save the world' most likely references him losing an eye at Ghenjei, maybe as a price. The 'save the world' bit might refer to him being bound to Tuon, but it might also refer to Moiraine.

nameless
12-27-2009, 12:43 AM
I always thought the dream about the ravens was fulfilled when Mat went through the ter'angreal gateway in Rhuidean. The two ravens are Thought and Memory, the ravens that whispered secrets to Odin when he was hanged from the World Tree. The secrets Mat learned in exchange for his hanging caused him to become a general and lead men into battle and death, which he is now resigned to despite being defiant at first.

wolframbohr2
12-27-2009, 01:00 AM
I had a thought more a question. I am not well versed in the Seachan structure, but don't know if it was mentioned at all either.

Can Mat still be married to Tuon if he is made property? The Emperess can do what ever she wants (that's a given). But Seachan also have some very strange rules. And would it fit her sence of "right and worng" doign that now after they ar emarried?

Let me explain. (no books so this is from memory) Tuon thinks "bady" about those who chop off body parts os damane to punish them. To me she views it more of a failing of the training not training correctly. There is also the bits about her training horses and and the sence I get from her is, she is strict but "fair" or "good" or "responcible" when training the women/animals. That she morals and ethics when it comes to these things and not abuse them. That any abuse is the result of the failing of the trainer and "lowers their eyes". If she made Mat property now that they are married would there be an internal conflict in her of yes I can do this, but is means I failed at controling my husband?

If she had to "divorce" Mat to make him property or making him property automatically "divorces" him are there other "rules" that could aply that even as Emperess she can not stop, like his execution (hanging in a silk bag since I "assume" he is automaticaly of the Blood, but who knows with the Seachan structer)

Yes, as Emperess she can do what she wants, I agree with that 100%. But would her own moral code/ethics allower her to do that now that they are married? Would Mat stand for it? What status would their children be? (if they have any) She would want to continue the line, can she marry again if she is still married but Mat is property? GAH, DAMN the Seachan and all their rules!!!!

You gave me some very insteresing thigs to think about. I might not agree, but I love thinking about theories and make it a point to try and support them, in my head atleast, ones I don't support. After all you can't fully challenge something if you don't understand it.

If I could rep I would give you some, but you rose a few points in my list of awsomenesses. :D

Terez
12-27-2009, 01:09 AM
I always thought the dream about the ravens was fulfilled when Mat went through the ter'angreal gateway in Rhuidean. The two ravens are Thought and Memory, the ravens that whispered secrets to Odin when he was hanged from the World Tree. The secrets Mat learned in exchange for his hanging caused him to become a general and lead men into battle and death, which he is now resigned to despite being defiant at first.
There is that too, but again, it's the fact that the ravens on the shoulders have a specific meaning in WoT that makes me think otherwise, and the fact that that particular meaning was referenced several times during Mat and Tuon's courtship, beginning with the first time they ever met. And then there is the fact that Mat acted like a Deathwatch guard in spirit through the entire ordeal, working alongside them to free Tuon.

To bohr, technically all Tuon would have to do would be to emancipate Mat, and so long as she provides him a means of supporting himself (remember Egeanin and Domon), then it's all good. But the mark of the raven is forever. :D And they are already married....

Like I said, it's quite possibly a catalyst for the emancipation of all da'covale, just as Tuon is the obvious catalyst for the emancipation of the damane.

wolframbohr2
12-27-2009, 01:22 AM
To bohr, technically all Tuon would have to do would be to emancipate Mat, and so long as she provides him a means of supporting himself (remember Egeanin and Domon), then it's all good. But the mark of the raven is forever. :D And they are already married....



She gets off cheap then. All she would need to do is buy him some dice and a cup.

It would be interesting if it goes in this direction.

For the Odin thing, it would hold more true if ravens were thought about in that context in Randland. They are only thought about that way in Seanchan. Since it was Egwene who had that dream she would not know the significance of ravens metaphoricly except for how they are viewd where she is at, as spies and carrion eaters. Yes, dreams can have all sorts of images, but the ravens were asked about to RJ and he gave the reasons why the Seachan use them as symbles that way and not that way in Randland. So there is not any real info int eh books, besides the Odin thing to make them be viewed that way.

It very well could be, and we may never know this. It seems to me there will be a lot of loose ends and RJ wanted it that wy. It seems he liked us theorizing about the books. The books would loose a lot of appeal if we knew the answeres to everything.

Can you imagin in 500 years if these books were read like Shakesphere is today and people write term papers on them for the unaswered questions. We could end up as footnotes!!!

Yuri33
12-27-2009, 01:48 AM
Is it not enough that becoming Prince of the Ravens fulfills the dream about ravens settling (but not tattooing) themselves on his shoulders? Additionally, I don't believe someone can be both Prince of the Ravens and property of the Empress at the same time.

TGS, A Halo of Blackness:
Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself.

Prince of the Ravens is one of the High Blood, and you can't be of the Blood and and be property (da'covale or so'jhin) at the same time.

Additionally, there is no evidence that the Prince of the Ravens can be head of the Deathwatch Guard as well. There's already a very capable person in that position, regardless.

wolframbohr2
12-27-2009, 01:55 AM
TGS, A Halo of Blackness:
Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself.

I just took notice to something here, but I may be reading this wrong. Tuon would be shamed for making Mat conform to Seachan ways? This gives me something more to think about.

Yuri33
12-27-2009, 02:07 AM
The conflict of making Mat conform to Seanchan culture/ways versus Mat's inherent idiosyncrasies was a running theme throughout TGS, of which the above quote was one instance. In fact, it had it's beginnings in KoD:

KoD, As if the World were Fog:
Toy commanding an army seemed very odd. He was charming at times, even witty and amusing, but often a buffoon and always a rapscallion. He had seemed very much in his element as Tylin’s pet. Yet he had seemed in his element among the show’s performers, too, and with the marath’damane and the two escaped damane, and in the hell. That had been such a disappointment. Not even one fight! Events later had not compensated for that. Getting swept up in a street brawl was hardly the same as seeing fights in a hell. Which admittedly had been far more boring than rumor heard in Ebou Dar had made it seem. Toy had displayed an unexpected side of himself in that street brawl. A formidable man, though with a peculiar weakness. For some reason, she found that strangely endearing.

It's Tuon coming to grips with the fact that she does love Mat, and part of that love stems from the behavior she's already observed. It's stretching to think that her "shame" here had anything do with her intentions to turn Mat into property.

Terez
12-27-2009, 03:26 AM
Is it not enough that becoming Prince of the Ravens fulfills the dream about ravens settling (but not tattooing) themselves on his shoulders?
Like I said, it might be, if not for the tons of other references to Mat being made da'covale, and the special significance of the ravens on the shoulders in the WoT world.

Additionally, I don't believe someone can be both Prince of the Ravens and property of the Empress at the same time.
Technically, it's not supposed to be possible. Tuon would have not married someone that was da'covale. But she already married him, and the mark of the raven is forever.

Additionally, there is no evidence that the Prince of the Ravens can be head of the Deathwatch Guard as well. There's already a very capable person in that position, regardless.
There is, but the suggestion had more to do with Mat's dedication to Tuon than anything else (besides the dream about the raven tattoos). There is nothing to indicate that the First Prince of the Ravens could NOT be head of the Deathwatch Guard.

wolframbohr2
12-27-2009, 04:21 AM
I have given this some more thought, boring here at work. Could the ravens be simular to the hawk and eagle to Perin. For him this was 2 different women. For Mat could it indicate 2 women that are the same women, Tuon? The one is Tuon, the other is Fortuna or what ever he name is now, still Tuon to me. But in Seachan culter they would be 2 different people.

I know its a stretch, but it does fit. I am not of any mind on this at all, which is why I am thinking of alternatives. Not cause I don't like something, but I think every possibility needs to be looked at, then weighed. EGAD, the White in me is coming out, LOL.

The claws piercing the skin is a good argument for tattoos.


For the shame, I said for her to make him conform to Seachan ways, not making him property. I was carefull to word it that way cause I am not sold on that part, but it does leave me an out, cause conforming would mean excepting being property if that does happen. (very Aes Sedia of me :D) It would also fit for her and training. For example, horses, yeah you do break them, but do you want to break their spirit? By making him conform she could break his spirit and it is that spirit that she is in love with. The more I think about it, the more to me it seems that Mat is a high spirited horse to Tuon. (And a mighty good piece of horse flesh at that!!!:D)

But is it "real" love if it is fortold? I don't expect an answere here. This is part of a larger theological debate with prophecies in general real and in books. Prophecies must be fullfilled, so do the people have real choice? Are they "realy" responcible/accountable for their actions? After all if they don't do them, then prophecy is not fullfilled. Does man have free will? Or must they follow the script that is written for them? Sorry for getting off track.

Terez
12-27-2009, 05:43 AM
I have given this some more thought, boring here at work. Could the ravens be simular to the hawk and eagle to Perin. For him this was 2 different women. For Mat could it indicate 2 women that are the same women, Tuon? The one is Tuon, the other is Fortuna or what ever he name is now, still Tuon to me. But in Seachan culter they would be 2 different people.
Yeah, I thought about that too. It is not so much that the explanation is too easy, but that the alternative explanation has so much merit that makes me consider otherwise.

I don't really like the idea of Mat being property any more than Mat would (or any more than he likes the idea of anyone being property - it's one of his problems with Seanchan society, along with damane). But Mat has been shown to handle such horrible implications with a good sense of humor; he did it when he was Tylin's love slave, when Tuon offered to buy him, and with every jab she gave him about the cupbearer thing. And the situation has the potential to unlock a good number of key problems with the truce, which basically boil down to Mat's and Tuon's determination to stick to their respective guns in the Seanchan vs. Randland dispute.

As to the 'real love' question - I am interested to see how, exactly, Mat gets those tattoos at Ghenjei. If he finds himself in a position to ask the Eelfinn for something again (he did, after all, manage to get six answers to four questions from the Aelfinn, and an extra thing from the Eelfinn before, and this time he will be prepared with his music, fire, and iron), then what could he ask for that would result in the tattoos? It seems likely that he will be in a position to ask, because the eye is a likely price. We have always assumed that he would ask for Moiraine's freedom, but whether Mat asks by the agreement or by breaking the rules, it seems likely that he will be able to ask for more than one thing.

wolframbohr2
12-27-2009, 05:52 AM
I like your idea more for the fact that it would make some great reading if it is ever written. Seems to me to be more of after the Last Battle type story.

For me, the loosing of the eye physicaly just never sat rigth with me for some reason. Why? I don't know. Maybe its cause I don't want Mat to look ugly, hehe.

Terez
12-27-2009, 05:58 AM
Ugly? He will be a pirate. That is awesome. He is already uglified from the hanging scar anyway. But the eye just fits with too many things. Min saw his eye on a balance scale. Egwene saw him with his hat pulled low over his eyes and blood streaming down his face. The Aelfinn said he would give up half the light of the world to save the world. Odin lost an eye. Rand lost a hand. I'd say you can probably bank on Mat losing that eye.

Also, there will be implications of what is to come with the tattoos after the Last Battle as much as anything else. Perhaps there will be some momentous decisions made beyond the truce, as to what compromises Mat can force about da'covale and damane, but it's not as if everything will be peachy by the end of the last book.

Bryan Blaire
12-27-2009, 09:17 AM
I don't know why you would be getting so much scorn about the idea, Terez, as it was discussed way back when we were still on InsideTheWeb and GeoCities, and at that point, it seemed to be mostly agreed that Mat being tattooed, at the very least, with the ravens was very likely to happen, if he didn't actually become property. Now it seems even more likely to me.

That's the problem with that particular comment though, there have been so many discussions that can't even be recovered now (so far as I know) from the hamsters at InsideTheWeb and GeoCities that it is unknown whether the detail from tSR through LoC really has been discussed or not and I have a feeling that people are dismissing old ideas because of that.

I like your idea though, and I think that there is definitely some support for it coming to pass. Maybe he will get the ravens as a cruel joke from the Aelfinn (if we don't get to eat you, we'll make sure you belong to someone to keep you from ruling your own destiny or some such), or as part of the price or just markings to show a cheat so that he won't ever be bargained with again... but it would be far funnier to have Mat literally become both a noble and property since he is so... touchy... about both.

Terez
12-27-2009, 07:07 PM
I don't know why you would be getting so much scorn about the idea, Terez, as it was discussed way back when we were still on InsideTheWeb and GeoCities
Maybe because none of these people actually pay attention to the WoT boards any more? :rolleyes: Aside from the occasional exception, of course, such as yourself at this moment...

I like your idea though, and I think that there is definitely some support for it coming to pass. Maybe he will get the ravens as a cruel joke from the Aelfinn (if we don't get to eat you, we'll make sure you belong to someone to keep you from ruling your own destiny or some such), or as part of the price or just markings to show a cheat so that he won't ever be bargained with again... but it would be far funnier to have Mat literally become both a noble and property since he is so... touchy... about both.
And that's exactly the point. I feel like Tylin was a prelude to Tuon in more ways than one. And of course you have all that, just because Tuon is a noblewoman and probably the most powerful of noblewomen on the planet to boot. She joked about making him property, threatened him, but at this point it something that she hasn't seriously considered in a long time, probably since the first time she met him. But Mat's entire plotline is a series of one subjugation after another, and it's part of his character to overcome them all with his pride intact. If anyone can transcend Tuon's notion of property, it's Mat.

The thing is, Mat doesn't have any idea that the ravens are a mark of property. He associates them with the Deathwatch Guards, and he only met the Deathwatch Guards briefly. If he gets the tattoos, that is where his mind will go. But to Tuon, the mark of the raven is forever, and it marks the property of the Imperial family. The fact that she can channel, if she chooses, is easily justifiable for Tuon - so long as she chooses not to channel, she is not a marath'damane. But if Mat were to get those tattoos, it would be much more difficult for her to justify, I think.

Terez
12-27-2009, 07:17 PM
LOL. I did a search on raven tattoos at Yuku to find my old posts about them, and this is the first thing I found: (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/1186/t/Carlinya.html#reply-1186)

As far as the Mat Dreaming, I don't think that he's going to be getting any raven tattoos. He's already got enough ravens on his person at all times now, and he's claimed by the Queen of them. I think he's good and fulfilled with regards to that particular Dream.

I miss the rollin emote.

Terez
12-27-2009, 07:48 PM
Here is another one (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/194208/t/Shaido-and-Seanchan.html#reply-194208). I remember that one fondly because it was the first time I ever managed to catch Callandor being sloppy. I simply didn't get any real reaction at all to that mention, from anyone.

And WH seems to agree with me here (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/110166/t/Aldeshar.html#reply-110166), but that was before Knife of Dreams came out, and he seemed to think then that Tuon would be the one to give him the tattoos. This there was this one (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/115552/t/Tuon-and-Mat.html#reply-115552). And another older mention (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/98168/t/Egwene-DotNM-and-Gaul-and-other-theories.html#reply-98168).

That was all I could find on Yuku - the rest seemed to be discussion about Carlinya. Only discussed 6 times 8 years.

wolframbohr2
12-27-2009, 11:40 PM
Ugly? He will be a pirate. That is awesome. He is already uglified from the hanging scar anyway. But the eye just fits with too many things. Min saw his eye on a balance scale. Egwene saw him with his hat pulled low over his eyes and blood streaming down his face. The Aelfinn said he would give up half the light of the world to save the world. Odin lost an eye. Rand lost a hand. I'd say you can probably bank on Mat losing that eye.

Also, there will be implications of what is to come with the tattoos after the Last Battle as much as anything else. Perhaps there will be some momentous decisions made beyond the truce, as to what compromises Mat can force about da'covale and damane, but it's not as if everything will be peachy by the end of the last book.

Scars = hot
Looking like a pirate = yuck. I can't invision Mat running around with silver buckled slippers and tight shinny pants...

Terez
12-28-2009, 12:58 AM
He won't be. He'll just have an eyepatch. Like Uno. He'll more likely be wearing something with a little lace.

wolframbohr2
12-28-2009, 01:16 AM
If Mat launches into:

I am the very model of a modern Major General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.


I think I will hang myself

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-28-2009, 09:16 AM
Terez, I pay attention. I have moments of clarity, moments of delusion and long periods of inactivity, but I do read most of the posts here.

Quiet
as
a
Mouse

anyway...losing an eye has always been a fascination to me in these books. I recall pointing out that a NUMBER of characters have lost ONE eye over the series and postulating it had something to do with a trade-off with the Dark One, the 'finns or one of the Forsaken.

As are most of my musings, this was met with scorn an dismissive gestures (as much as one can gesture on here). :D

Wouldn't it be funny if the one eyed thing turned out to be THE head slapper???

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2009, 10:17 AM
Wouldn't it be funny if the one eyed thing turned out to be THE head slapper???Perhaps, but regarding Mat, the "eye on a balance scale" was introduced in book one, when Min told Rand that he was gonna have to wield Callandor. She told him a lot of other things too, but somehow failed to tell him that she was gonna fall hopelessly in love with him. Strange oversight, that.

Crispin's Crispian
12-28-2009, 11:16 AM
I don't recall discussing it very much, but I don't think it would be any kind of huge surprise. Like Bryan said, I always assumed the ravens probably meant he would become da'covale. I didn't think there had been that much debate about it, and even the WoT FAQ has had that argument up for years. Whatever the case about who believe what 10 years ago, it hardly seems to me like this would be the big hidden clue that no one has discussed.

If it is, I'll be disappointed.

Crispin's Crispian
12-28-2009, 11:21 AM
Oh, and something else...

What does the Tower of Ghenji have to do with the ravens? It seems more likely to me that he would get the tattoos upon ascending to become the Prince of Ravens.

I do think Ghenji is where he might lose an eye, perhaps either in a bargain, or because he'll find out that the *'Finn have been using his eye to spy on the world. That would rule

Daekyras
12-28-2009, 01:45 PM
I have given this some more thought, boring here at work. Could the ravens be simular to the hawk and eagle to Perin. For him this was 2 different women. For Mat could it indicate 2 women that are the same women, Tuon? The one is Tuon, the other is Fortuna or what ever he name is now, still Tuon to me. But in Seachan culter they would be 2 different people.

I know its a stretch, but it does fit. I am not of any mind on this at all, which is why I am thinking of alternatives. Not cause I don't like something, but I think every possibility needs to be looked at, then weighed. EGAD, the White in me is coming out, LOL.

The claws piercing the skin is a good argument for tattoos.


I agree with wolf on this point here. I always saw the ravens as representing people in the same way the hawk and eagle represent women(in this case). I see the viewing/dream as being too much like the Perrin one for it not to be.

I have never liked the idea of Mat becoming da'covale as it doesn't really seem to fit with him personally or with the relationship between him and (for)Tuon.

However Terez i would be willing to get on board with your idea if you could somehow work Rhuarc and Berelain in......:D;)

ShadowbaneX
12-28-2009, 01:47 PM
as a tangent, Terez, you reminded me of something I thought of during the series but I'd since forgotten (about half a dozen times now): Tuon's refusal of Rand. I've been thinking that despite the pattern trying to force Tuon to refuse, she was able to in that moment because she was not Empress.

As the Daughter of the Nine Moons it's possible that had that agreement been made, that it could have been refused somewhere down the line. The deal had to have been made between the Empress of Seanchan and the Dragon Reborn, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons and the Dragon Reborn. In a roundabout way, this might even fit with your idea a little in that she's going to have make the agreement with the Dragon Reborn and learn that even though she's the Empress, she still has equals.

Crispin's Crispian
12-28-2009, 02:58 PM
I have never liked the idea of Mat becoming da'covale as it doesn't really seem to fit with him personally or with the relationship between him and (for)Tuon.

I think the poor fit is exactly why it's likely. Mat wanted to get out of the Two Rivers, Mat wanted to be freed from Aes Sedai, Mat wanted to be free from Rand's influence, etc. Mat doesn't like to be controlled, and marriage in and of itself is almost an anathema to him.

So what better situation could there be from a literary standpoint: Mat, the free-roaming skirt chaser not only gets married, but actually falls in love with his wife and becomes part of her property.

It won't stick, of course, because the very act of Mat succumbing to ForTUONa will be the straw that breaks to slave-owning camel's back.

Marie Curie 7
12-28-2009, 03:06 PM
For the Odin thing, it would hold more true if ravens were thought about in that context in Randland. They are only thought about that way in Seanchan. Since it was Egwene who had that dream she would not know the significance of ravens metaphoricly except for how they are viewd where she is at, as spies and carrion eaters. Yes, dreams can have all sorts of images, but the ravens were asked about to RJ and he gave the reasons why the Seachan use them as symbles that way and not that way in Randland. So there is not any real info int eh books, besides the Odin thing to make them be viewed that way.

Actually, Egwene dreamed of ravens attacking an oil lamp on a white plinth and knew that it referred to the Seanchan attack on the White Tower, so we have to presume that she does know about the raven as the imperial sigil of the Seanchan.

And there are certainly other Randlanders who know of it:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: Prologue - Embers Falling on Dry Grass

"I don't hold with the witches any more than any other man," Byar said finally, without raising his head from his work. Blood was seeping through the bandages even as he wrapped. "But the Precepts say, to fight the raven, you may make alliance with the serpent until the battle is done." A ripple of nods ran through the men. The raven meant the Shadow, but everyone knew it was also the Seanchan Imperial sigil.

And unless you're thinking of another quote, this is what RJ said about the raven as Seanchan imperial symbol:

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

Q: What is the origin of the raven as a symbol of the Seanchan Empire? Why isn't it a hawk?

RJ: The conquerors of Seanchan suffered the fate of many smaller groups that conquer larger. They were, in many ways, absorbed by the conquered, with only an overlayer remaining of what and who they were before.

In pre-conquest Seanchan, the raven was a symbol of rulers because (1) it was supposedly wise, and (2) (perhaps more importantly) it supposedly saw and knew everything that happened. Nothing escapes the eyes of the raven, and frankly, any hawk or eagle that tries taking on ravens, gets chased off. So, the golden hawk remains the symbol of the Imperial family, descendants of Artur Hawkwing, but the raven is the symbol of rule and of Empire.

That quote talks specifically about why the raven was adopted as a symbol of empire in Seanchan but doesn't say anything about why they aren't thought of that way in Randland.

I agree with wolf on this point here. I always saw the ravens as representing people in the same way the hawk and eagle represent women(in this case). I see the viewing/dream as being too much like the Perrin one for it not to be.

Well, there is a significant difference between the two dreams, in my opinion. Terez gave the quote that contains both Egwene's dream of the hawk and falcon as well as the ravens in the original post. But here's the part about the hawk and falcon:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 15 - A Pile of Sand

Perrin came and stood before her, a wolf lying at his feet, a hawk and a falcon perched on his shoulders glaring at each other over his head. Seemingly unaware of them, he kept trying to throw away that axe of his, until finally he ran, the axe floating through the air, chasing him.

Here, the hawk and falcon are simply perched on Perrin's shoulders. Now, here's the part about Mat again:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 15 - A Pile of Sand

Mat spoke strange words she almost understood - the Old Tongue, she thought - and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them than Perrin had been of the hawk and falcon, yet defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance.

The ravens land on Mat's shoulders but their claws sink into his flesh. What is another thing that sinks into your flesh? A tattoo... (and on the shoulders in this case, just like for Seanchan property).

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2009, 04:05 PM
That quote talks specifically about why the raven was adopted as a symbol of empire in Seanchan but doesn't say anything about why they aren't thought of that way in Randland.The Randland attitude is probably a bit influenced by the fact that ravens often act as eyes and ears for Lurks. Since those have been exterminated by the ancestors of the Seanchan long ago, that's not a worry over there.

Bryan Blaire
12-28-2009, 04:08 PM
LOL. I did a search on raven tattoos at Yuku to find my old posts about them, and this is the first thing I found: (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/1186/t/Carlinya.html#reply-1186)

I miss the rollin emote.

Ah well, in the words of Leto Atreides II: "We go forward; we go back."

:D

We shall see what happens to Mat, the Wheel weaves as the Sanderson wills.

Terez
12-28-2009, 04:45 PM
I don't recall discussing it very much, but I don't think it would be any kind of huge surprise.
It would be if you hadn't realized what it meant already.

even the WoT FAQ has had that argument up for years.
This it true, and it certainly is a detriment to the argument. If it was just a matter of Brandon not catching the rare discussion on it, it would be different, but you'd think he'd know everything that was in the FAQ. Oddly, I brought this idea up on 13th Depository, and Linda thought it was a great idea, and she's written analysis of the prophecies for the Wotmania FAQ and the 13thD blog. But still, it is quite a different thing to think that Brandon hasn't caught every discussion, and to think that he hasn't read the entire WoT FAQ that's been up for years, or that Maria hasn't checked it. Brandon said to Tam, 'I haven't been able to find a hint that any of the fan communities have even gotten a whiff it, which is awesome, because they get a whiff of almost everything.'

But then again, there is a chance that he was going off of more recent discussions about Mat that never once took the idea of him becoming property into account. We talk about Mat more than anyone else, and the tattoos almost never come up (and I don't see them come up at other fan sites either).

The Encyclopaedia has a complete list of the prophecies that I use often, so it's easy to forget about the outdated FAQ that no one uses any more because it's full of stuff that didn't happen that way. It hasn't been updated since Crossroads, which was only two books ago, but it's been six years, and the fan knowledge has progressed a lot since then. It's not a knock on the FAQ, which was very good when it was up-to-date, but it's been almost seven years, and most of us just don't use it any more. The last time I scoured the whole thing was when I was looking for hints of interviews that I was missing - there were some quotes that were only found in the FAQ.

Terez
12-28-2009, 05:18 PM
Oh, and something else...

What does the Tower of Ghenjei have to do with the ravens? It seems more likely to me that he would get the tattoos upon ascending to become the Prince of Ravens.
That might have been a decent idea at one point, but I think that Egeanin and Domon established in the last few books that the Blood do not marry property. There might be some exception for the Empress, but it would be strange for Egeanin to think the way she did, if that were so:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 21 - A Matter of Property

"There always do be festivals of some sort," he said slowly, grudgingly. He never liked giving up his argument, no matter how futile. "Some may be to your taste. Some not, I do think. You do be ... picky." What did he mean by that? Suddenly he grinned. "We could find a Wise Woman. They do hear marriage vows, here." He ran his fingers across the shaven side of his scalp, rolling his eyes upward as though trying to see it. "Of course, if I do recall the lecture you did give me on the 'rights and privileges' of my position, so'jhin can only marry other so'jhin, so you do need to free me, first. Fortune prick me, you do no have a foot of those promised estates, yet. I can take up my old trade and give you an estate soon enough."

Her mouth fell open. This was not something old. This was very, very new. She had always prided herself on being levelheaded. She had risen to command by skill and daring, a veteran of sea battles and storms and shipwreck. And right that moment she felt like a first-voyage fingerling looking down from the main peak, panicked and dizzy, with the whole world spinning around her and a seemingly inevitable fall to the sea filling her eyes.

"It is not so simple," she said, surging to her feet so he was forced to step back. Light's truth, she hated sounding breathless! "Manumission requires me to provide for your livelihood as a free man, to see you can support yourself." Light! Words flooding out in a rush were as bad as being breathless. She imagined herself on a deck. It helped, a little. "In your case, that means buying a ship, I suppose," she said, sounding unruffled, at least, "and as you reminded me, I have no estates yet. Besides, I could not allow you to return to smuggling, and you know it." That much was simple truth, and the rest not really a lie. Her years at sea had been profitable, and if the gold she could call on was small gleanings to one of the Blood, she could buy a ship, so long as he did not want a greatship, but she had not actually denied being able to afford one.

He spread his arms, another thing he was not supposed to do, and after a moment she laid her cheek against his broad shoulder and let him enfold her. "It will be well, lass," he murmured gently. "Somehow, it will be well."

"You must not call me 'lass,' Bayle," she chided, staring beyond his shoulder toward the fireplace. It would not seem to come into focus. Before leaving Tanchico she had decided to marry him, one of those lightning decisions that had made her reputation. Smuggler he might be, but she could have put a stop to that, and he was steadfast, strong and intelligent, a seafarer. That last had always been a necessity, to her. Only, she had not known his customs. Some places in the Empire, men did the asking, and were actually offended if a woman even suggested. She knew nothing of enticing a man, either. Her few lovers had all been men of equal rank, men she could approach openly and bid farewell when one or the other of them was ordered to another ship or promoted. And now he was so'jhin. There was nothing wrong with bedding your own so'jhin, of course, so long as you did not flaunt the fact. He would make up a pallet at the foot of the bed as usual, even if he never slept on it. But freeing a so'jhin, casting him off from the rights and privileges Bayle sneered at, was the height of cruelty. No, she was lying by avoidance again, and worse, lying to herself. She wanted wholeheartedly to marry the man Bayle Domon. She was bitterly unsure she could bring herself to marry manumitted property.
So, since it is highly unlikely that Tuon would actually make Mat her property, he has to get the tattoos elsewhere. He next destination is a well-known place for Mat getting stuff, and he's already slated to lose the eye, but that is the price, isn't it?

I do think Ghenji is where he might lose an eye, perhaps either in a bargain, or because he'll find out that the *'Finn have been using his eye to spy on the world. That would rule
If we're assuming that Mat is either bargaining with the Eelfinn via the agreement (watch it be yet another agreement for the Tower of Ghenjei, though), or cheating (Thom and his harp, etc.), there's a chance here that he could get stuff besides Moiraine's freedom (which will be at the top of the list, of course). If it's by the Eelfinn agreement, Mat might (accidentally again?) ask for something related to Tuon. But yes, I can see Mat asking for a way to be free of their spying, and losing the eye that way. If they cheat, maybe they can rack up a few things. If there's a price, maybe it will be the tattoos rather than the eye (if the eye is his way to be free of the spying).

I think the poor fit is exactly why it's likely. Mat wanted to get out of the Two Rivers, Mat wanted to be freed from Aes Sedai, Mat wanted to be free from Rand's influence, etc. Mat doesn't like to be controlled, and marriage in and of itself is almost an anathema to him.

So what better situation could there be from a literary standpoint: Mat, the free-roaming skirt chaser not only gets married, but actually falls in love with his wife and becomes part of her property.

It won't stick, of course, because the very act of Mat succumbing to ForTUONa will be the straw that breaks to slave-owning camel's back.
Exactly. 'Mia ayende, Aes Sedai.' And Tylin said it again when Tuon tried to buy Mat: 'He is a free man, High Lady ... I cannot sell him.' Mat is a free man, and the ravens wouldn't change him. If he becomes dedicated to Tuon, it will be because he loves her, not because he's marked.

Crispin's Crispian
12-28-2009, 05:39 PM
Well, you may be right, Terez. I don't remember talking about the tattoos that much, and your search confirmed that there isn't much or any recent discussion. For a long time, I took the FAQ to be a compilation of theories most people knew about. Yes, they left stuff out, but for the most part everything there was well known.

But that may not be true at all. I went from the FAQ right to here, where we discuss everything covered in the FAQ and much more. I shouldn't expect Brandon or anyone from Tor to keep a list of what Theoryland discussed over time (even if they're probably doing it now ;) ).

BTW, I like how you turned the argument around to suggest Mat won't actually be property, and that's why Ghenji comes into the picture.

Terez
12-28-2009, 05:46 PM
BTW, I like how you turned the argument around to suggest Mat won't actually be property, and that's why Ghenji comes into the picture.
Thanks. Technically, he would still be property, in reference to the story of the lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk and ended up scrubbing floors in the Imperial Palace. But Tuon won't be the one to make him property, and his personality will ensure his freedom one way or another, and perhaps introduce freedom to all the Seanchan da'covale.

Spasmodean
12-28-2009, 06:51 PM
After a recent re-read I took the Dream about the Ravens and the shadowy woman to mean that the Seanchan got their claws into mat/he became Prince of the Ravens and the shadowy woman was either Egwene interpreting the colour of Tuon's skin strangely or else the fact that Semirhage was whispering in the ear of the Seanchant Throne. (There were actually 2 shadowy women technically, as Suroth was also a darkfriend).

Terez
12-28-2009, 07:34 PM
Neither Tuon nor Suroth were beckoning, though. Moiraine is - she needs Mat, specifically, to get free from Ghenjei. He didn't appear to be in 'monstrous danger' from anything Tuon or Suroth did, either.

Terez
12-28-2009, 09:12 PM
I wonder if we will begin to see a regression of sorts - things coming into play that simply haven't been talked about in years because RJ diverted us. Verin was a good example of that. Only noobs suggested that Verin was Black Ajah - most seasoned posters would give you the standard arguments for her not being Black (that, while she was certainly ruthless, she obviously had the Lightfriends' best interests at heart and therefore was not Black). We explained away her lie about Moiraine in book 2 with the loopholes in the First Oath.

Another thing that hearkens back to the beginning is the link between Rand and Moridin. Since Rand killed Ishamael 'for good' at the end of book 3, Rand hasn't much thought about him. Now that Rand finally realizes who Moridin is, we're back to where we were, not at the end of book 3, but in the prologue of book 1 (and also in a dream Rand had in book 1 chapter 24), because at the time that Rand killed Ishamael, we had not been made aware of his past life memories (that happened at the beginning of book 4), and Rand didn't realize where those memories were coming from until the beginning of book 5. So now the real rivalry of the series has come into focus after having been diverted for almost 12 books (Rand's dealings with Ishamael had no real mark of that rivalry, because Rand did not remember).

It is sort of strange how Rand's emotions seemed to be suspended while in the dream with Moridin. It was just like it had been at Shadar Logoth, but then, Rand didn't realize who he was. But in the dream, he clearly remembers what we saw in 'Dragonmount', with his reference to Moridin's 'last gift of sanity'.

Fain will be another regression. We saw him briefly in 9, and in 7, and in 5, but he has not really been in the spotlight since 4. I hope we finally figure out what his proposal to the Fade was. :D

Daekyras
12-28-2009, 09:43 PM
BTW, I like how you turned the argument around to suggest Mat won't actually be property, and that's why Ghenji comes into the picture.

I was impressed by that also :)

Tary a little, as Portia diBelmont might say, but any ideas as to why the Finns would ask Mat/strike a deal to have the ravens tattooed on his body?

And I don't mean to have moiraine released:cool:
I mean why would THEY want that?

The eye thing seems to be quite well recieved by most people as the price for moiraines release.

Terez
12-28-2009, 11:10 PM
Yes, but the price normally grants three wishes. Why should it be different this time?

Like I said before, the ravens might come about by some request related to Tuon.

Yuri33
12-29-2009, 01:27 AM
(on call, so I have no access to quote text in support of my rather hurried arguments...)

Among my several objections to this being the proposed "detail," none of this really matters in the end. The institution of slavery and leashing of damane are problems that will only resolve in the long term (i.e., outrigger novel territory), and have little to no impact on Tarmon Gai'don, the focus of the last two books.

Tuon discovered the flaw in a'dam two books ago, and her position hasn't budged. What makes you think her views on slavery will evolve any faster? Regardless of her love for Mat (at this point she only admits to herself affection--so even that is a slow process), her stated purpose, above even Mat, is to serve the Empire (as she expressed both internally and externally). At this point in time, dissolving slavery does not serve the Empire, and would take much longer than the timeframe of Tarmon Gai'don to resolve. Any catharsis about the foulness of slavery vis a vis Mat doesn't really change that.

The timing issue also is at odds with the "Vin's earring" analogy, as I understand that to have been something obvious and out in the open that had an immediate and profound effect on current events.

The other issue, as has been touched upon in earlier threads, is the lack of evidence for any link between the ToG and any possible tattooing of Mat. What request, at this point in time, is there for Mat to make in regards to Tuon? Keep her safe? How are the 'Finn's supposed to do that? Change her mind about Rand? The 'Finns don't really do that kind of thing.

BTW, I believe the "the mark of the Raven is forever" quote is being taken too far. The mark of the raven matters so long as the Empress says it does. The Seanchan exhibit "compartmentalized" thought. That is, custom dictates that as soon as something is (legally) claimed, whatever happened in the past means nothing. The moment Tuon claimed she was Empress (after a period of mourning), it simply was (there's a quote about how all the ceremony and stuff is meaningless). Tuon died, leaving Fortuona. No one would ever remember Tuon (another quote in TGS, but I don't have it right now). Suroth went from High Blood to da'covale in the span of a few words. The very moment Tuon finished the marriage ceremony, Toy became Matrim, and whatever comments Tuon made about cupbearers and whatnot became meaningless. Less than a day after becoming Prince of the Ravens, Musenga crumpled at the thought of calling Mat anything but "Highness" or looking him in the eye. The moment Tuon named Selucia Truthspeaker, it simply was.

If Mat shows up with raven tattoos on his shoulders, so what? Tuon never declared him property, nothing about those tattoos are legally established. She could choose to punish him for assuming the honor of being so'jhin to the Empress without earning it (which was the point of the tale of drunken Seanchan--not necessarily that the Empress was bound to make them her property), but given his current position within the Seanchan, the motive for illegally getting tattoos is moot and the justification for any analogous punishment is meaningless. Her other option in such a scenario would be to simply choose to declare the tattoos meaningless. If the Empress declares it, then that's what it is--I don't believe she would be "trapped" in the situation.

If there's any issue of significance that is going to be addressed in the ToG other than Moiraine's freedom, I believe it would be related to the Shadow, since, as we have been told, questions touching the Shadow are supposed to be dangerous (yet there's no evidence for that so far--Rand never suffered for his questions). That warning is a nice bit of foreshadowing. It's corroborated by RJ himself:

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?
RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

We also have:

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal [only ter'angreal, actually - Terez] out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?
Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.
Question Part 2: In that case, what was Lanfear doing?
Jordan: She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.

We also have that "Fortune rides on the foxes shoulders" (I don't have the exact quote to reference right now). The significance is important as this phrase is part of established prophecy, and was specifically cited by Noal, one of the ToG companions. Mat has the DO's own luck. Maybe the DO (ravens) has his claws in Mat as well, or perhaps that will be part of the price that Mat must pay in the ToG.

GonzoTheGreat
12-29-2009, 04:07 AM
Exactly. 'Mia ayende, Aes Sedai.' And Tylin said it again when Tuon tried to buy Mat: 'He is a free man, High Lady ... I cannot sell him.' Mat is a free man, and the ravens wouldn't change him. If he becomes dedicated to Tuon, it will be because he loves her, not because he's marked.Do you have evidence for that?

There is a quote which directly contradicts it, you know:
Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.This says very explicitly that such a raven mark would indeed change his status irretrievably.

If you want to claim that applies to everyone but the consort of the Empress, then you're gonna have to produce some evidence for it.

Terez
12-29-2009, 06:05 AM
@Yuri - Like I have said at least a couple of times before, I don't expect everything to be peachy at the end of the series with regards to the emancipation of the da'covale and damane at the end of the series, and this is not really the point anyway - the point is the truce. Tuon and Rand are at odds, fierce pride to fierce pride, but Mat and Tuon are at odds in a decidedly different way. They both believe wholeheartedly in the causes that they fight for, and while Mat knows he doesn't represent Rand's faction like Tuon represents hers, and tries to pretend he's not all that important in the scheme of things, he knows he's the closest thing to Rand.

As to how the ravens could lead to the truce....the differences between Mat and Tuon, the only things that put them at odds, are clear.

1. The da'covale. The notion of slavery is abhorrent to the people of Randland, even though Rand didn't mention it in his meeting with Tuon, and Perrin allowed Shaido to be taken for da'covale and damane. The notion of anything approaching overnight transformation of long-held cultural perspective is not much supported in the real world. But with Mat, there is an opportunity for some very rapid change, not least because he is ta'veren. Rand changed the way the Aiel live drastically, and essentially overnight. If Mat's tattoos cause Tuon to change the way she thinks about property, then this is one thing that is preventing the truce, down. And I don't think we are reading too much into the mark of the raven being forever at all. It is an iron-clad part of culture, to the point that no one would think of marking themselves that way. Egeanin's thoughts make that clear. Tuon has certain expectations about these things: for example, she had no fear of Seanchan farmers seeing her when she was in hiding with Mat, because she knew that no farmer had ever seen her face. But it is Mat that has the potential to make her views evolve rather more quickly than you would normally expect.

2. The damane. This is seen as worse than da'covale, probably because there is implication that a damane is even less of a person than a da'covale (while some da'covale can even have honored positions as so'jhin). Again, it is difficult to imagine something that could cause such a revolution overnight in the real world as the emancipation of the damane would be. But if Tuon channels, then two iron-clad Seanchan beliefs would be at war with one another: the belief that the Empress is as close to a human deity as is possible, and the belief that damane are not really people, are dangerous and should be collared, and should be even if they are members of the Imperial family. That has happened before, but never to an Empress. And make no mistake - Tuon is as close to channeling as any sul'dam has ever been, just on account of her skill. Other sul'dam have to tell their damane what to do, or at least rely on the damane knowing what to do without instruction. Tuon does not. She merely wills the damane to channel through the a'dam, to the point that it is as if she is doing the channeling herself. The fact that she looks so young for her age might simply be because of genetics....but what if she is slowing already? If she is slowing, then that means she has already channeled, and perhaps her regular linking with damane has kept her from realizing it. If she has done it before, then she will do it again, and I have often thought that the Pattern might have given her Mat to crumble her iron will, as much as for the direct problem of the truce. But the damane issue is a point Rand 'will not concede' (no doubt with Elayne and Aviendha at the forefront of his mind, not that Nynaeve is far behind). He makes no demands that she free all of her damane, but he refuses to allow her to leash the free channelers on his side, and that seems to be a deal-breaker for Tuon. There is only one thing in the books that really has obvious potential to make her channel, and that's Mat.

3. She means to consolidate the continent under her rule, but the rulers of the various nations mean to keep their lands. At the heart of that is Andor (which was made a provincial region under Hawkwing's rule), with Elayne probably providing the fiercest resistance (probably along with the Severed Band), which is a parallel to Aldeshar—Andor is made up of remains of Aldeshar and Caembarin and other bits, and Ishara's grandfather was the last king of Aldeshar. Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing's Consolidation, and Hawkwing's empire was built on his part in the War of the Second Dragon, against Guaire Amalasan. This particular Consolidation, the Corenne, is seen by Rand and Elayne and the rest as coming at the wrong time, the worst time, and the Dragon is the real one this time. But there has been a strong implication for some time now that they might be wrong about that. The constant references to the order that Seanchan bring, not least Rand's pilgrimage through the heart of Seanchan territory, and Fel's admonition that belief and order give strength, suggest that the Seanchan might be the key that Rand needs to unite the nations. Rand can see that now, but he still feels that he owes it to the east-north rulers, not least Elayne, to not concede that point. Even if Elayne agreed to rule under Tuon as Empress, Tuon would not allow a marath'damane to rule (not without a major paradigm shift). However, there is a reference in the BWB to the fact that Hawkwing was universally loved by the common people, and only the nobility had any issue with his rule.

Ghenjei is simply a well-established means for things like this - as I said, any number of things could lead to Mat getting the tattoos there. If we take the dream to mean that he will get tattoos, then Ghenjei is the most logical place for him to get them, as it's the next spot on Mat's itinerary.

This says very explicitly that such a raven mark would indeed change his status irretrievably.
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? It's childish. I have repeatedly addressed the fact that the mark of the raven is forever, and that Mat's character is sufficient to transcend that.

Daekyras
12-29-2009, 06:09 AM
There is a quote which directly contradicts it, you know:


Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 38, Hidden Faces
Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.


This says very explicitly that such a raven mark would indeed change his status irretrievably.

If you want to claim that applies to everyone but the consort of the Empress, then you're gonna have to produce some evidence for it.


I don't think Yuri was saying that if, if, Mat did get tattooed he wouldn't be property.

I think he is saying that if Tuon didn't want him to be property anymore she could just say so because her word is law as she is the empress...
I only have book 4 here with me so no quotes to back that up(as usual!).

The other issue, as has been touched upon in earlier threads, is the lack of evidence for any link between the ToG and any possible tattooing of Mat. What request, at this point in time, is there for Mat to make in regards to Tuon? Keep her safe? How are the 'Finn's supposed to do that? Change her mind about Rand? The 'Finns don't really do that kind of thing.

Agreed, but not only that, why would the finns want Mat to be marked in that way?


Yes, but the price normally grants three wishes. Why should it be different this time?

Like I said before, the ravens might come about by some request related to Tuon.


Again, Why?
Mat: First finns, you foxy/snaky bastards, I've got 3 requests:
1. Release Moiraine
2. Help look after the Band
3. something about Tuon.

Finns: Ok, but ALL we ask in return is
1. You lose an eye
2. You lose your awesome memories
3. You get two sweet ravens tattooed on your shoulders.

Mat: Sounds reasonable, but see I've got this aunt, and well, like, she's been sick and stuff and....Ah, bloody hell, I brought IRON bitches, and Fire and Thom plays the flute and stuff and Noal who will also help me beat you in some way also..

I know that's fascetious but by god they foreshadow beating the game snakes and foxes enough...:D

Terez
12-29-2009, 06:11 AM
@Daekyras - I feel like you did not actually read any of my posts.

Daekyras
12-29-2009, 06:19 AM
@Daekyras - I feel like you did not actually read any of my posts.

Ah, found out at last....:cool: (if at last means 1 month lol)...

Only joking. Of course I read them and as always they are way better backed up and formulated than mine.:)

I just have a different interpretation of the things we read.

Marie Curie 7
12-29-2009, 01:05 PM
The mention of Mat becoming property has occurred enough times in the books that it would be nice if something did come of it. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that this is the small detail, though.

However, the discussion did remind me of Lidya's foretelling:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 36 - Under an Oak

"You know that damane can tell fortunes?" She gave him a stern look, likely expecting him to call it superstition, but he nodded curtly. Some Aes Sedai could Foretell the future. Why not a damane? "I asked Lidya to tell mine just before I landed at Ebou Dar. This is what she said. 'Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other.' It was your ring that caught my eye first." He thumbed the long ring unconsciously, and she smiled. A small smile, but a smile. "A fox apparently startling two ravens into flight and nine crescent moons. Suggestive, wouldn't you say? And just now you fulfilled the second part, so I knew for certain it was you." Selucia made a sound in her throat, and Tuon waggled fingers at her. The bosomy little woman subsided, adjusting her head scarf, but the look she shot at Mat should have been accompanied by a dagger in her hand.

So, 'he will marry you and set you free'... free from what? Free from the Seanchan structures of damane and da'covale, perhaps?

Bonzi77
12-29-2009, 01:20 PM
The mention of Mat becoming property has occurred enough times in the books that it would be nice if something did come of it. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that this is the small detail, though.

However, the discussion did remind me of Lidya's foretelling:



So, 'he will marry you and set you free'... free from what? Free from the Seanchan structures of damane and da'covale, perhaps?

Well, technically he already set her free. She was his captive when they were fleeing Ebou Dar, then they got married and he sent her on her way.

Marie Curie 7
12-29-2009, 03:28 PM
Well, technically he already set her free. She was his captive when they were fleeing Ebou Dar, then they got married and he sent her on her way.

Yeah, that's correct, of course. I was trying to suggest a more symbolic interpretation rather than or in addition to the literal interpretation of the foretelling, though. :)

Yuri33
12-29-2009, 04:52 PM
But with Mat, there is an opportunity for some very rapid change, not least because he is ta'veren.

Tuon has already demonstrated her ability, through sheer will, to resist an even more powerful ta'veren.

But it is Mat that has the potential to make her views evolve rather more quickly than you would normally expect.

There is no evidence for an increase in the evolution of Tuon's thinking based on her interactions with Mat. In fact, the evidence so far shows a very slow progression of thinking (as I've already shown in regards to the da'mane). There is a unique relationship, sure, and this is important, but Tuon has resisted every one of Mat's attempts at persuasion.

You are right, the point is the truce between Rand and Tuon. So far, however, the only people to show any progress are Setalle Anan (cultural tolerance) and (perhaps) Tylee, who first implanted the thought of a truce in her head.

But if Tuon channels, then two iron-clad Seanchan beliefs would be at war with one another: the belief that the Empress is as close to a human deity as is possible, and the belief that damane are not really people, are dangerous and should be collared, and should be even if they are members of the Imperial family.

If she channels, then this will be the primary mechanism of change, not Mat. The discussion of how close she is to channeling is irrelevant. Also, while the Empress herself channeling would be a major disruptive blow to the Empire, it's the a'dam's secret that forms the pillar of power behind the Seanchan Empire. That secret getting out (which has already started to a small extent), is equally as disruptive.

There is only one thing in the books that really has obvious potential to make her channel, and that's Mat.

What exactly could Mat do to force Tuon to channel? Certainly nothing to do with raven tattoos. If Mat is in some immediate danger, and she were the only one available to help, it might be possible, but there's really no indication for that being possible right now. I really do not foresee the Empress ever being without guard again for the rest of this series. She's going to be surrounded by Deathwatch Guards and damane, both of which could intervene on her behalf to save Mat if the situation (as unlikely as it is) were to come up.

Rand is the one who is constantly put under impossible situations and forced to do impossible things to overcome them (channeling the TP, etc.). When Bethamin and Seta first channeled, it was under similar stressful circumstances. This really hasn't been a theme with Tuon, and a similar situation for her is unlikely.

Rand can see that now, but he still feels that he owes it to the east-north rulers, not least Elayne, to not concede that point. Even if Elayne agreed to rule under Tuon as Empress, Tuon would not allow a marath'damane to rule (not without a major paradigm shift).

And a couple of raven tattoos on her lover's shoulders is supposed to spark this change? This is the "Vin's earring" moment? It just doesn't fit. Just look at her mental gymnastics in justifying the difference between herself and damane when confronted about the truth of the a'dam.

Ghenjei is simply a well-established means for things like this - as I said, any number of things could lead to Mat getting the tattoos there. If we take the dream to mean that he will get tattoos, then Ghenjei is the most logical place for him to get them, as it's the next spot on Mat's itinerary.

Actually, you haven't described anything specific as how Mat gets tattoos in the ToG, only that he makes some request related to Tuon and this somehow results in him getting tattoos. And the next place on Mat's itinerary is a month long stay in Caemlyn, not a trip to the ToG. From everything I've read, getting a tattoo at local parlor in a moment of drunken weakness (or a failed bet, as Rand sees Mat dicing in Caemlyn) is easily as likely as magically getting them inside the ToG. A couple of tattoos, even becoming property, just doesn't sound like the price the Finns typically extract.

The mention of Mat becoming property has occurred enough times in the books that it would be nice if something did come of it.

Every one of those references were negated the moment she married Mat, and perhaps a little before then as well. To her, he's now a "lion in the high grass" and a man of many layers. We've had multiple PoVs of Tuon since the marriage, and none of them have even a whiff of her former thoughts about Mat being property. It's that "compartmentalization" of thought that I referred to earlier.

Bane Darkwulf
12-29-2009, 05:02 PM
The big question is: is the "item" a physical thing, or a concept, or a group of people?

Anyone got any definitive answers on this?

Spasmodean
12-29-2009, 05:32 PM
The whole not quite serious chatter about making Mat a cup bearer (who we know are chosen for beauty) seemed to me to be Tuon's fumbling style of flirting.

@ Bane - I get the impression that it was an event of mention of an event. The "Tell the Dragon Reborn" tinker massacre seems to be one of the more mysterious events in the series however even that doesn't fit the criteria we've been given.

Bane Darkwulf
12-29-2009, 05:55 PM
Look back to when Tuon lirst met Mat. The entire time she was acting like a spoiled rich girl(which she is)falling in love, even unwittingly, with someone she feels is unequal to her.

1)She tries to impress Mat with her with her wealth, offering to pay 10x the price of the Ashandari

2)She tries to impress him with her power and make him feel gratitude for not using it on him (the constant threats of making him Da'covale)

3)Constantly making it to where she could see him and make him notice her, yet acting like he was beneath her notice, or it was completely random

4)Asking if he recognized Hawkwing's face, as being Ta'Veren wouldn't have made her do that without her already at least leaning towards liking him

All of her actions are reasonable when viewed in this light.

GonzoTheGreat
12-30-2009, 03:59 AM
All of her actions are reasonable when viewed in this light.Reasonable? A spoiled rich girl being reasonable*?
I think that you would have done better if you'd used the word "understandable". Apart from that, I agree with your analysis.

* All right, I admit: Paris Hilton was acting very reasonable when she announced her candidacy for the presidency. So it is not totally impossible, I know. Still ...

Bane Darkwulf
12-30-2009, 03:21 PM
Reasonable? A spoiled rich girl being reasonable*?
I think that you would have done better if you'd used the word "understandable". Apart from that, I agree with your analysis.

* All right, I admit: Paris Hilton was acting very reasonable when she announced her candidacy for the presidency. So it is not totally impossible, I know. Still ...

That is what I meant, Gonzo. Thank you for pointing out that flaw.

nameless
01-01-2010, 03:21 PM
The biggest problem with Mat getting the raven tattoos through the tower of Ghenji is that the 3 wishes from the Eelfinn are based on old compacts that Mat will very likely break during his rescue of Moiraine. What we know of the deal is: humans get their three answers/three wishes; Finn people get assurances that the humans will not invade them with fire, iron, and music. They're not likely to stand around smiling and granting wishes for someone who brought a gleeman, a pack of fireworks, and a bunch of horseshoes.

Terez
01-01-2010, 09:20 PM
He has to lose the eye and rescue Moiraine somehow though, so it's likely that the wishes will come into play - how else would he lose an eye?

Neilbert
01-01-2010, 10:10 PM
It's the Band of the Red Hand.

Terez
01-01-2010, 10:57 PM
Wat?

GonzoTheGreat
01-02-2010, 04:34 AM
He has to lose the eye and rescue Moiraine somehow though, so it's likely that the wishes will come into play - how else would he lose an eye?Someone could poke it out.

Daekyras
01-02-2010, 06:37 AM
It's the Band of the Red Hand.
I don't quite follow you here neilbert...

Terez
01-02-2010, 09:05 AM
I don't quite follow you here neilbert...
He and I had a brief conversation about that in chat. Don't worry about it; it's pretty much off-topic anyway. I would tell you what he was getting at, but I think he was high when he came up with it. :D

Someone could poke it out.
Truly, but then it seems weird for Min to see his eye on a balance scale, as if he's weighing it against something. That's what makes people think it will be his price, or that he will ask them to be free of the string they have tied to him, and he loses the eye that way.. Of course, there's the chance that he will figure out before Ghenjei that one of his eyes is how the 'Finns keep an eye on him, and Mat plucks it himself so they won't know he's coming. But it seems unlikely, considering that a) there's no way I can think of that he would find that out, and b) it's hard to see Mat plucking his own eye for Moiraine. Or even for Thom.

metaphor
01-03-2010, 05:58 PM
My guess is the eye could be the price he pays to the finn for their bargain. Or something to that extent.

wolframbohr2
01-03-2010, 06:44 PM
Maybe the eye represents his sight into other mens lives and battles. Him weighing it on the scales could mean his choice of giving up that sight for something else.

Yuri33
01-04-2010, 02:36 AM
Here's one of the quotes I was looking for:

CoT, A Cluster of Rosebuds:
“You named her your wife three times that night in Ebou Dar,” she said slowly. “You really don’t know? A woman says three times that a man is her husband, and he says three times she’s his wife, and they’re married. There are blessings involved, usually, but it’s saying it in front of witnesses that makes it a marriage. You really didn’t know?”
Mat laughed, and shrugged his shoulders, feeling the knife hanging behind his neck. A good knife gave a man a feeling of comfort. But his laugh was hoarse. “But she didn’t say anything.” He had bloody well been stuffing a gag in her mouth at the time! “So whatever I said, it doesn’t mean anything.” But he knew what Egeanin was going to say. Sure as water was wet, he knew. He had been told who he was going to marry.
“With the Blood, it’s a little different. Sometimes a noble from one end of the Empire marries a noble from the other. An arranged marriage. The Imperial family never has any other kind. They may not want to wait until they can be together, so one acknowledges the marriage where she is, and the other where he is. As long as they both speak in front of witnesses, inside a year and a day, the marriage is legal. You truly didn’t know?”
Sure was sure, but the stones still spilled from his hand onto the board, bouncing everywhere. The bloody girl knew. Maybe she thought this whole thing was an adventure, or a game. Maybe she thought being kidnapped was as much fun as training horses or bloody damame But he knew he was a trout waiting for her to set the hook.
He stayed away from the purple wagon for two days. There was no use running – he already had the bloody hook in his mouth, and he had put it there himself – but he did not have to swallow the flaming thing. Only, he knew it was just a matter of when she decided to jerk the line tight.

Egwene's dream once again: "Mat spoke strange words she almost understood – the Old Tongue, she thought – and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them than Perrin had been of the hawk and falcon, yet defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance."

The parallels are too many to ignore. (An unbreakable) commitment to marrying Tuon, shrugging his shoulders, defiance, and then acceptance. When he began the ceremony, he was not aware of it. The only thing that doesn't fully fit is Mat not using the Old Tongue in the context of the ceremony, but the ceremony itself was protracted over 2 books, and he spoke the Old Tongue several times during that period.

So why birds settling on Perrin's shoulders rather than sinking their claws in them like Mat's shoulders? Perhaps because Perrin had to choose--his future wife wasn't set in stone. Mat, on the other hand, had no choice. His wife's identity was sealed the moment he heard what the Aelfinn said and when Tuon heard Lidya's Foretelling.

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2010, 02:52 AM
Well, knowing Mat, it is entirely possible that he did use the Old Tongue at least part of the time in Ebou Dar, and that everyone was so used to that from him that no one has commented on it.

Alternatively, Egwene may have been wrong. That's a good default assumption anyways, you know.

Terez
01-04-2010, 03:13 AM
Of course, the 'Finns speak the Old Tongue. They have to bring in translators if you don't. :)

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2010, 03:46 AM
Of course, the 'Finns speak the Old Tongue. They have to bring in translators if you don't. :)Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe they do speak the normal language too, and were simply messing with Mat's head by pretending to need translators for the others.
Would be funny, you have to admit. :p

As well as tactically sound: when Mat returns, he could speak in the modern language, assuming the *finns don't understand that, and thus reveal his plans to them inadvertently.

Terez
01-05-2010, 04:43 AM
So, yeah. I have read this passage quite a few times, in Tuon's point of view:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 35 - A Halo of Blackness

She needed to nudge the conversation in other directions. Into a realm that would throw the Dragon Reborn off guard. She studied him. "Is this all our conversation is to be about?" she said. "We sit across from one another and speak only of our differences?"

"What else would we talk about?" al'Thor said.

"Perhaps something we have in common."

"I doubt there is much in that area that is relevant."

"Oh?" Tuon said. "And what of Matrim Cauthon?"

Yes, that shocked him. The Dragon Reborn blinked, mouth opening slightly. "Mat?" he said. "You know Mat? How . . ."

"He kidnapped me," Tuon said. "And dragged me most of the way across Altara."

The Dragon Reborn gaped, then shut his mouth. "I remember now," he said softly. "I saw you. With him. I did not connect you to that face. Mat . . . what have you been doing?"

You saw us? Tuon thought skeptically. So the madness had manifested itself. Would that make him easier to manipulate, or more difficult? Probably the latter, unfortunately.

"Well," al'Thor finally said, "I trust that Mat had his reasons. He always does. And they seem so logical to him at the time. . . ."

So, Matrim did know the Dragon Reborn; he would be an excellent resource to her. Perhaps that was why he had been brought to her, so she would have a means of learning about the Dragon Reborn. She would have to recover him before he could help her in that area.

Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself.
So, I see several things in this passage:

1. She thinks of Mat in two different ways, much the same as Egwene does with Gawyn.

2. Tuon the Empress sees Mat as a connection to the Dragon Reborn, the only person in the world deemed worthy to sit across from the Daughter of the Nine Moons as an equal. She also has seen Mat as a capable general, and no doubt intends to put those talents to use.

3. Tuon the woman is just a little bit confused. She hasn't quite come into herself yet - she has always known that she would marry to serve the Empire, and she married Mat because of a damane's Foretelling. But she is slowly becoming a woman in love, and she hasn't yet admitted it to herself.

4. For reasons that she can not explain to herself, she thinks it would be a shame for Mat to shave half his head and start acting like one of the Blood. Any of us could explain it to her, though: Tuon the woman has become attached to Mat. She likes him just the way he is, doesn't want him to change a bit.

5. Most importantly, she recognizes that she will have to recover Mat before he can be of use to her. She thinks of it in terms of Tuon the Empress, and doesn't admit to herself that she just wants him back for him. After all, she has married him, and all she's gotten so far was a few kisses. Both the motivation that she recognizes and the one she does not recognize are strong. Add to that the fact that she has just learned Traveling, and there is a very good chance that she will do just that. She thinks to herself that Mat won't like it, but he will have to see reason. Just as she saw reason when he kidnapped her.

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 19 - Gambits

As soon as Tuon entered the room, all of the commoners bowed on knees with foreheads to the ground. Those of the Blood knelt, bowing their heads.

Across from the da'covale, on the other side of the hall, Lanelle and Melitene knelt in dresses emblazoned with silver lightning bolts in red panels on their skirts. Their leashed damane knelt facedown. Tuon's kidnapping had been unbearable to several of the damane; they had taken to inconsolable weeping during her absence.

Her audience chair was relatively simple. A wooden seat with black velvet on the arms and back. She sat down, wearing a pleated gown of the deepest sea blue, a white cape fluttering behind her. As soon as she did, the people in the room rose from their positions of adulation—all save the da'covale, who remained kneeling. Selucia stood and stepped up beside the chair, her golden hair in a braid down her right side, the left side of her head shaven. She did not wear the ashes, since she was not of the Blood, but the white band on her arm indicated that she—like the entire Empire—mourned the loss of the Empress.

Yuril, Tuon's secretary and secretly her Hand, stepped up to the other side of the chair. The Deathwatch Guards moved in subtly around her, dark armor glittering faintly in the sunlight. They had been particularly protective of her lately. She didn't blame them, recent events considered.

Here I am, Tuon thought, surrounded by my might, damane on one side and Deathwatch Guard on the other. And yet I feel no safer than I did with Matrim. How odd, that she should have felt safe with him.
1. Tuon the woman felt safe with Mat, but she doesn't recognize it, and therefore doesn't understand it, because it makes no sense from the perspective of Tuon the Empress (even though she has not yet proclaimed herself, she thinks of herself as Empress already in this chapter, knowing that all she will have to do is say the words).

2. Tuon already thinks of one of her property—Selucia, a so'jhin—as a person, in contrast to the regular da'covale and the damane, and also in contrast to the Deathwatch Guard. The elevation of so'jhin came about as a means of elevating the Empress and the Blood above their inferiors; they were so superior that even their property was better than you. It is a strange conundrum, but there it is.

3. The Deathwatch Guard in particular are emphasized for their protectiveness. If Mat gets the tattoos, he will associate them with the Deathwatch Guard, and Tuon likely will as well.

Later in the chapter:

Tuon felt she should be shocked. But, oddly, she wasn't. So Matrim was not mistaken about this, she signed covertly to Selucia. And she had assumed Trollocs to be nothing more than superstition. She glanced at the heads again. Revolting.

Selucia seemed troubled. Are there other things he said that we discounted, I wonder?

Tuon hesitated. We shall have to ask him. I should very much like to have him back. She froze; she hadn't meant to admit so much. She found her own emotions curious, however. She had felt safe with him, ridiculous though it seemed. And she wished he were with her now.

These heads were yet another proof that she knew very little of him. She reasserted control of the chattering crowd. Selucia Voiced, "You will silence yourselves."

The room fell still, though the Blood and the sul'dam still looked very disturbed. Tylee still knelt, head bowed, the soldier who had borne the heads kneeling beside her. Yes, she would have to be thoroughly questioned.
1. Tuon asserts that she wants Mat back, as she does again later in the book. She wants to question him about what he knows.

2. Tuon also intends to thoroughly question Tylee. This could lead to knowledge about Perrin, and Tylee's reasons for thinking that the Dragon Reborn and his friends will make better allies than enemies:

"These last few weeks, I have seen many things that have given me thought," Tylee said. "Even before my troops were attacked, I was worried. The wisdom and grace of the Highest Daughter undoubtedly let her see further than one such as I, but I believe that our conquests so far in this land have been easy compared to what might come. If I may be so bold . . . I believe that the Dragon Reborn and those associated with him may make better allies than enemies."

.....

Order must be brought to the world. If she had to do that by lowering her eyes slightly and meeting with the Dragon Reborn, then so be it.

Oddly, she felt herself wishing—once again—that Matrim were still with her. She could have put his knowledge of this Rand al'Thor to good use in preparing for the meeting. Stay well, you curious man, she thought, glancing back at the balcony, northward. Do not dig yourself into trouble deeper than you can climb to freedom. You are Prince of the Ravens now. Remember to act appropriately.

Wherever it is you are.
1. Tylee speaks the truth when she says that the conquests so far have been easy in comparison to what might come. Tarabon was in chaos when it was taken, as was Arad Doman, and while Altara was relatively stable, it was one of the weakest nations, easily as weak as Murandy despite its size. Almoth Plain was already up for grabs, and Arad Doman was weakened by Graendal and still managed to put up a good fight. But Andor, descendant of the last nation to fall to Hawkwing, is ruled by an Aes Sedai. Rand uses Asha'man in battle, and his friends do as well.

2. Again, Tuon wants Mat back. Again, she thinks of it in terms of what Tuon the Empress needs, and refuses to acknowledge her feelings for Mat. Soon she will realize that he is her only hope of bringing the prophecies that she believes in to fulfillment.

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2010, 05:00 AM
And why would Mat accept getting tattoos?

An alternative which he might consider (slightly) more acceptable would be making him emperor.

Terez
01-05-2010, 05:40 AM
And why would Mat accept getting tattoos?
Why are you asking questions that have already been addressed multiple times in the thread?

Yuri33
01-06-2010, 12:00 AM
Add to that the fact that she has just learned Traveling, and there is a very good chance that she will do just that. She thinks to herself that Mat won't like it, but he will have to see reason. Just as she saw reason when he kidnapped her.

Tuon kidnaps Mat? An interesting idea, and one worth investigating further. However, such a scenario doesn't really require raven tattoos nor does it fit with the chapter 4-6 detail.

The elevation of so'jhin came about as a means of elevating the Empress and the Blood above their inferiors; they were so superior that even their property was better than you. It is a strange conundrum, but there it is.

This is speculation. I think a more plausible explanation is twofold:

1. The elevation of honor and status while being property is a means to mollify and entire class of people with no freedom or enfranchisement. Call it Separate but Equal (and in some cases superior). It's a means to preserve the institution of slavery.

2. As is often the case with hereditary ruling structures, you cut off a large part of the talent pool by limiting the ruling class to a bunch of pampered children. Providing a means for advancement for property through merit and service allows the Empire to utilize more capable people.

BWB, Seanchan:
Ironically, perhaps because of the widespread slavery, Seanchan honor and power do not necessarily equate with freedom, as they do in most other lands. Commoners and merchants rank just above lowly slaves, but many upper-class slaves, such as the so’jhin, the hereditary upper servants of the Blood, outrank free men and women. Some of the most honored and most powerful members of Seanchan society are actually the property of the Imperial family. It is a rare honor for a commoner of free birth to be chosen as a high-level servant, but one that is eagerly sought, for it is one of the few ways to advance beyond one’s station of birth. The loss of freedom, even for future generations, is believed a very small price to pay for such advancement.

The BWB has a bit about honor as well:

BWB, Seanchan:
Despite the political machinations of Seanchan life, honor is supremely important to them. They practice an idealized form of chivalry based on the value of their word. To them, a word of honor, once given, is considered absolute. This is true for all - man, woman, slave or noble.

Mat is currently the Prince of the Ravens, a very high place of honor, and granted to him by the word of the Daughter of the Nine Moons:

KoD, Under and Oak:
“I’m not in the mood at the moment.” she said coolly. That hanging magistrate was back. All prisoners to be condemned immediately. “Perhaps later. You could return to Ebou Dar with me. You have an honored place in the Empire, now.”

I doubt there is any position for a male more honorable than Mat's current position within the Empire. Any move at this point would be a setback, and unlikely to be endorsed by Tuon, with or without tattoos.

Tuon asserts that she wants Mat back, as she does again later in the book. She wants to question him about what he knows.

Tuon is clearly struggling with her love for him and her need to serve the Empire. It produces strange and new feelings within her, and even an occasional odd reaction (such as her inadvertent comment to Selucia about wanting to get him back). But we've seen a parallel situation in Mat--his struggle not to be "husbandly." Is there plot significance or foreshadowing in Mat's struggle? It's unlikely:

Stormleader Report #7:
When asked about why Matt somehow seems different in tGS than in the earlier books, Brandon explained that the changes were intentional. How, he asked, could Matt have lived through the events in his plotline at the end of Knife of Dreams and not come out a changed man?

Stormleader Report #9:
Brandon talked at length about Mat, saying he is undergoing great changes having just been married which might explain some of his behavior in TGS.

Stormleader Report #10:
Brandon describes Mat dealing with Tuon leaving as Mat having his feet knocked out from under him” and says that in Robert Jordan’s notes it says specifically that “Mat refuses to be coming husbandly”

Stormleader Report #12:
A question about Mat’s behavior in TGS prompted Brandon to reveal that Jordan’s notes had clearly stated “Mat insists he will not be husbandly” and Mat is struggling with trying to return to his old self while dealing with the new stresses of love and marriage.

Stormleader Report #13:
The change in Mat’s personality that many of us noticed in TGS was deliberate. He’s reacting to being married, which was the last thing he thought would happen to him. RJ’s notes said specifically that “Mat refuses to become husbandly”, and he’s doing that by trying to go back how he was in TDR. This is part of where the silliness with the backstories comes from – he knows that he was less serious and more of a joker at the time, but can’t really get back to how he was then.

Tuon is struggling under the same changes that Mat is struggling under. The way BS talks about Mat's changes makes it seem much of Mat's awkwardness is largely imposed by RJ's note insisting that he be portrayed as refusing to be "husbandly" and not foreshadowing toward future plot twists. It's reasonable to believe that Tuon's struggle is similar as well. It would be instructive to ask BS if RJ had a similar note on Tuon's behavior. Maybe Tuon is simply struggling not to be "wifely." :)

Soon she will realize that he is her only hope of bringing the prophecies that she believes in to fulfillment.

The evidence for Mat being the vehicle of Tuon's acceptance of a truce is still pretty thin. Mechanistcally, nothing provides for this to happen, other than Tuon getting Traveling. To go from that fact to Tuon plucking Mat from thin air is speculation. She doesn't even know where he is or where he's going.

Terez
01-06-2010, 03:07 AM
Tuon kidnaps Mat? An interesting idea, and one worth investigating further. However, such a scenario doesn't really require raven tattoos nor does it fit with the chapter 4-6 detail.
What is your point? No one said that it did. You make a lot of noise, and not a lot of sense.

Yuri33
01-06-2010, 03:36 AM
Look at the freakin topic and your first post.

Terez
01-06-2010, 03:50 AM
What does that have to do with it? That's what my first post was about, but the last post was just musings on Tuon getting Mat back, for the most part. That should have been incredibly obvious.

Yuri33
01-06-2010, 03:59 AM
Seriously? The running theme through your posts, from the very first one to the very last, is that Mat is the key to the truce. And you link that thesis to the book 4-6 detail.

I've been rebutting the Mat thesis, and its logical to link that back to a rebuttal of the proposed book 4-6 detail.

If you want to separate the discussion from anything having to do with the book 4-6 detail, start a new freakin topic.

GonzoTheGreat
01-06-2010, 04:01 AM
What's in it for the *finn, to give Mat those tattoos?
I mean, compared to keeping him with them, or letting him rescue all their captive AS? (Giving Mat a few dozen of those women to herd back to the Tower would be far more amusing than putting some simple pictures on his shoulders, I think. If I were a *finn, and I could choose between keeping AS prisoner or watching while Mat was arguing with them about whether he'd given them an acceptable breakfast, then I know which would be more amusing.)

Terez
01-06-2010, 04:14 AM
If you want to separate the discussion from anything having to do with the book 4-6 detail, start a new freakin topic.
It's not separate from the discussion at all. That doesn't mean you can single out any point I make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6. It's idiotic, and makes you look like a spambot or something.

What's in it for the *finn, to give Mat those tattoos?
What has that got to do with anything? So far as we know, the only thing they got out of his previous experiences in their realm was this feeding on experiences thing that they do. They do have a twisted sense of humor, though, and that should be enough, I think.

GonzoTheGreat
01-06-2010, 04:56 AM
Well, that is not the only thing they got out of it. It is known that while they are not really on the same side as humans, they are definitely opposed to the Shadow. Mat has been (and will be) important in the fight to prevent the DO from obliterating all the *finns (and other beings).
Giving Mat what he needed in order to be effective was definitely to their advantage.

Spasmodean
01-06-2010, 05:15 PM
Well, that is not the only thing they got out of it. It is known that while they are not really on the same side as humans, they are definitely opposed to the Shadow. Mat has been (and will be) important in the fight to prevent the DO from obliterating all the *finns (and other beings).
Giving Mat what he needed in order to be effective was definitely to their advantage.

And yet they still hung him by the neck from Avendesora :)

GonzoTheGreat
01-06-2010, 05:16 PM
They may have known that Rand was going to show up just in time.
They did know enough to tell Mat about his upcoming wedding, so why not about something that was a lot closer still in time?

Spasmodean
01-06-2010, 05:21 PM
They may have known that Rand was going to show up just in time.
They did know enough to tell Mat about his upcoming wedding, so why not about something that was a lot closer still in time?
I thought one set of Finns told him things, the others gave him things.

One set said he'd live and die again, the others killed him (or possibly they refer to the balefire in Caemlyn thing).

Either way, I got the impression that all of the "Fool bla bla, we shall set the price" line the fox folk fed him implied that they were quite happy to hang him till he died on that tree and only Rand coming along (Ta'veren chance at work?) and knowing CPR saved him.

Yuri33
01-06-2010, 05:52 PM
It's not separate from the discussion at all. That doesn't mean you can single out any point I make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6.

You can't have it both ways.

To borrow a tactic you commonly emply yourself: That doesn't NOT mean I can single out any point you make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6.

They do have a twisted sense of humor, though, and that should be enough, I think.

That's a huge stretch.

It's idiotic, and makes you look like a spambot or something.

There's a long response and a short response to this. I'm going with the short:

If you believe what I'm posting is spam, ignore it.

nameless
01-06-2010, 08:25 PM
I thought one set of Finns told him things, the others gave him things.

One set said he'd live and die again, the others killed him (or possibly they refer to the balefire in Caemlyn thing).

Either way, I got the impression that all of the "Fool bla bla, we shall set the price" line the fox folk fed him implied that they were quite happy to hang him till he died on that tree and only Rand coming along (Ta'veren chance at work?) and knowing CPR saved him.

The hanging didn't kill him; even Rand isn't ta'veren enough to bring a dead man back to life with CPR. "To die and live again" refers to the balefire incident at Caemlyn.

Daekyras
01-06-2010, 08:41 PM
The hanging didn't kill him; even Rand isn't ta'veren enough to bring a dead man back to life with CPR. "To die and live again" refers to the balefire incident at Caemlyn.

Now I'm imagining Rand as Mitch in Baywatch....Stephanie is played by a trolloc...:D

Terez
01-07-2010, 01:18 AM
You can't have it both ways.

To borrow a tactic you commonly emply yourself: That doesn't NOT mean I can single out any point you make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6.
Yeah it does. You have to argue against things based on what they are about. If you don't, then you look like an idiot. But feel free.

Yuri33
01-07-2010, 01:55 AM
You have to argue against things based on what they are about.

That's hilarious, considering the rebuttal I posted (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82983&postcount=74) said very little about tattoos or the 4-6 detail.

Regardless, as long as the discussion resides in this thread, rebuttals based on tattoos/4-6 detail are an entirely valid and necessary line of argument, since you yourself stated that the discussion isn't separate at all. If that point isn't consistently made, then by implication it will be assumed that we all believe the 4-6 detail IS the tattoos and that we've moved on from there under that assumption. I imagine that is exactly what you would like.

If you're just bringing up some observations, and don't want them compared against the 4-6 detail or tattoos, then do it elsewhere.

Terez
01-07-2010, 08:32 AM
They are observations that are related to my theory on the detail, but my theory is not dependent on those observations, and those observations are not dependent on the theory. Your approach is like those who use arguments against barrier degradation as a rebuttal to construct theory (meaning, confused at best).

yaje
01-17-2010, 04:24 PM
I
I have never liked the idea of Mat becoming da'covale as it doesn't really seem to fit with him personally or with the relationship between him and (for)Tuon.


i dissagree. the male female power balance in these books seems to lean toward the female. raven tattos would def place him below tuon in some manner of speaking.

i would give this theory credence from the point of view that should mat get raven tattoos, loose an eye, and become captain of the deathwatch he would fullfill a character developement arc ("a lazy, mischevious, layabout ---> a dutiful, serious, husband") and gain allot of depth w/ contrast, making him an even more interesting character.

plus a dream fortelling involving living ravens embedded into the flesh strongly suggests the tattoo

padfoot89
01-18-2010, 12:37 PM
i would give this theory credence from the point of view that should mat get raven tattoos, loose an eye, and become captain of the deathwatch he would fullfill a character developement arc ("a lazy, mischevious, layabout ---> a dutiful, serious, husband") and gain allot of depth w/ contrast, making him an even more interesting character.

Actually, I'd be pretty unhappy if Mat did end up being a dutiful, serious husband. He's my favorite character precisely because he's a mischievous guy.


Title: The Dragon Reborn
Chapter: The Awakening

“I have to look out for myself,” he said angrily. He upended the wine pitcher over his silver cup and was surprised to find it empty. He filled the cup with milk, instead. “Egwene and Nynaeve want to be Aes Sedai.” He had not really remembered that until he said it aloud. “Rand is following Moiraine around and calling himself the Dragon Reborn. The Light knows what Perrin is up to. He’s been acting crazy ever since his eyes turned funny. I have to look out for myself.” Burn me, I have to! I’m the last one of us who’s still sane. There’s only me.

One of my favorite parts...

yaje
01-19-2010, 08:51 PM
Actually, I'd be pretty unhappy if Mat did end up being a dutiful, serious husband. He's my favorite character precisely because he's a mischievous guy.





thats not exactly what i intended to say. i shortened that post up considerably. i had limited time.

mat has always had disparate themes. i dont think that if he becomes serious, dutiful,...ect. he would lose those qualities you (and all of us) like. it would just add to the contrast which is what i really like about him.

Terez
01-19-2010, 08:59 PM
Dutiful husbands are not inherently boring, or emasculated in any way. Mat can be a dutiful husband while retaining his charm.

Wantanswers
01-20-2010, 02:54 AM
Mat spoke strange words she almost understood – the Old Tongue, she thought – and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them than Perrin had been of the hawk and falcon, yet defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance
Your whole theory is based on this dream of Egwene. This dream is simular to the dream she had about Perrin with a falcon and a hawk. The falcon and the hawk are Faile and Berelain. The two ravens are Tuon and Selucia and he has them on his shoulders since he kidnapped them.
"claws sinking through his coat into th flesh beneath". This means that Matt is tied to them, even more since Tuon made Selucia her truthspeaker. I suppose Selucia will Matt's truthspeaker as well.
"Not being aware of them" tells us that he will do what he has to do, whatever they say to him.
The last part of the dream describes how his feelings about Tuon and his marriage will change.
The whole story you can read in the books 9-11.
I think you'll have to start a new theory, because this one is based on quicksand.

Terez
01-20-2010, 03:22 AM
Your whole theory is based on this dream of Egwene.
Not completely - there are other clues to go along with it. ;)

This dream is simular to the dream she had about Perrin with a falcon and a hawk.
Similar, but not the same. As has already been pointed out in the thread several times, the falcon and the hawk didn't sink into Perrin's flesh.

This means that Matt is tied to them, even more since Tuon made Selucia her truthspeaker.What does Selucia as Mat's Truthspeaker have to do with this?

The whole story you can read in the books 9-11.
Really? I must have missed those books...

I think you'll have to start a new theory, because this one is based on quicksand.
I think you'll have to hang around a little while longer and prove your worth before you can make statements like this without making people laugh.

Daekyras
01-20-2010, 07:25 AM
i would give this theory credence from the point of view that should mat get raven tattoos, loose an eye, and become captain of the deathwatch he would fullfill a character developement arc ("a lazy, mischevious, layabout ---> a dutiful, serious, husband") and gain allot of depth w/ contrast, making him an even more interesting character.


I really don't think Mat being OWNED by Tuon bears any resemblence to their relationship thus far in the books. To me they are clearly falling in love. Not thinking about ownership....

As for character arc, how does losing an eye or becoming a deathwatch captain make him "a dutiful, serious husband"?

Mat will still be Mat. And forever should he stay that way....

yaje
01-21-2010, 12:02 PM
I really don't think Mat being OWNED by Tuon bears any resemblence to their relationship thus far in the books. To me they are clearly falling in love. Not thinking about ownership....

Mat will still be Mat. And forever should he stay that way....

no i think that the point of a story with strong characters is to whitness their journey through life. should anyone remain an 18 year old forever??? i dont think it works like that.

no it doesnt bear any notable resemblence to their relationship thus far....but lets not forget the way rj laid out his relationship with tylin. very much one-sided.

basically this is the way i see it. fortuanna is the empress mat has to do what she says weather or not he gets tattoos. but mat is smart as shit and if fortuanna has any sense she will respect him.

then again maybe not. all i said was that i would not dismiss this. ravens embedded in the flesh....hello? anyone?

Wantanswers
01-22-2010, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Terez
I think you'll have to hang around a little while longer and prove your worth before you can make statements like this without making people laugh.
I hope you laughed as loud about my theory as I did about yours. The idea Matt to become a so'jhin made me realy laugh. As far as I know anything about the Seanchan it is impossible for the Nine Moons to be married with a so'jhin.
By the way; Odin was accompanied by two raven as well. They were bcalled Hugin and Munin.

Yuri33
01-22-2010, 01:22 AM
Similar, but not the same. As has already been pointed out in the thread several times, the falcon and the hawk didn't sink into Perrin's flesh.

And as I've pointed out earlier, there are very plausable explanations for the difference--Perrin had a choice, Mat did not. Or alternatively, the ravens may represent a connection to the DO, considering Mat may have the DO's own luck.

Terez
01-22-2010, 01:47 AM
And as I've pointed out earlier, there are very plausable explanations for the difference--Perrin had a choice, Mat did not.
It wasn't really necessary to repeat yourself. The point was to demonstrate that the dreams do not necessarily have the same interpretation, just because similar symbolism was used; your opinion isn't relevant to that point.

As far as I know anything about the Seanchan it is impossible for the Nine Moons to be married with a so'jhin.
Not impossible, exactly. No one of the Blood would ever marry property - property can only marry other property, and so'jhin, being at the top of the da'covale hierarchy, only marry other so'jhin - but Tuon is already married to Mat. If he become property by virtue of having gotten tattoos a la the drunken lord and lady, then of course she probably has the right to declare the marriage null and pretend as if it never happened. But would she? :) The development of her character strongly suggests that she would probably rather cut off her left arm. She wants Mat back, and she's starting to realize that she is in love with him. Then, of course, there is the conflict, because she would probably rather cut off her right arm than be married to property. The conflict is the important part, and it's not just present in Tuon's character, but in Mat's as well; he represents the ideal free man, despite his many experiences with subjugation throughout the series.

nameless
01-23-2010, 01:42 AM
I hope you laughed as loud about my theory as I did about yours. The idea Matt to become a so'jhin made me realy laugh. As far as I know anything about the Seanchan it is impossible for the Nine Moons to be married with a so'jhin.
By the way; Odin was accompanied by two raven as well. They were bcalled Hugin and Munin.

Hugin and Munin translate to "Thought" and "Memory" in English, hence the inscription on Matt's spear. While Odin was hanging from the World Tree the settled on his shoulders to peck at him and whispered secrets in his ear, which is why I believe the dream refers to Matt hanging from the Tree of Life to gain Thought and Memory. The consensus of everyone else seems to be that dreams follow symbolism set up within the series itself rather than the Norse mythology the books draw upon and that the ravens therefore refer to either Seanchan or Shadow and not to Matt's hanging or becoming the 3rd Age incarnation of the Gallows God.

Terez
01-23-2010, 02:57 AM
Hugin and Munin translate to "Thought" and "Memory" in English, hence the inscription on Matt's spear. While Odin was hanging from the World Tree the settled on his shoulders to peck at him and whispered secrets in his ear, which is why I believe the dream refers to Matt hanging from the Tree of Life to gain Thought and Memory.
That might be good reasoning if not for the fact that RJ tends to twist parallels, and spread them over several events. Also, Egwene's dream was in Lord of Chaos, well after Mat got the ashandarei. None of her other dreams have been about the past.

The consensus of everyone else seems to be that dreams follow symbolism set up within the series itself rather than the Norse mythology the books draw upon....
I don't see how you come to that conclusion about the 'consensus'. I think that the ravens in that particular dream refer to both Odin's ravens and the Seanchan tattoos. The only reason I haven't been discussing the former much is because it doesn't have much relevance to the plot.

Lefts
04-22-2010, 03:21 AM
I've a few thoughts. Perhaps the Prince of Ravens is supposed to be marked with the ravens, but is not considered property.

Or, considering Tuon's ascension to Empress, Mat has to be marked so, and considered property, lest he be considered equal to the Empress somehow, yet he'd still be placed high, perhaps second only to Tuon herself. I doubt that Tuon would even be able to control Mat in this manner, looking at Bayle Domon's relationship with Egeanin when he was a so'jihn. And Tuon might not even try to settle him down, after all.

For you people mentioning him being marked at the tower of Ghenjei, how are you making this connection?

heridfel
04-29-2010, 12:06 PM
I don't think he will actually get the tattoos (and I should know since I have the Raven tattoos LOL)... but he is surely already Imperial property (who isn't the property of their wife... especially in Randland) which fulfills the metaphorical meaning of the dream. The ravens are not marked on his skin, but deep inside him.

Terez
04-29-2010, 12:08 PM
We don't think it's metaphorical simply because the dream specifically says that they sink into his flesh. It's the same thing Perrin saw when he saw the dragons sink into Rand's flesh in the Wolf Dream.

Also, Mat is certainly not considered property as it is. The notion would (and will) probably horrify Tuon. He's got to be marked as property in order for any paradigm shifts to occur.

heridfel
04-29-2010, 01:42 PM
I do think it's metaphorical... and the part about ownership was a joke. Of course we will all RAFO.

Yellowbeard
04-29-2010, 02:05 PM
maybe the detail that we missed has to do w/ RJ's inner dirty old man. after all, the risque stuff has definitely picked up steam since book 4. could be something that has to do w/ when min had to start wearing a dress for a while. it further ripped the pattern and rand's gonna have to do some in-depth study of her butt in pants in order to figure out how to fix it, and he'll stumble onto how to fix the bore while he's at it.