Need y'all's help...

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I was rejected for Sword and Sorceress 23. No big deal, I'm getting quite a collection going! But one of the things the editor said when I pressed her for a real explanation rather than the polite, "It doesn't fit the tone of the anthology we're going for," is what that meant. And she put it more bluntly. She read it, and when she came back to it the next day, she couldn't remember it. (Now THAT, hurt.)

So, I'm wondering, all you out there in fandom..., what makes a book unforgettable? Why do you re-read RJ, Tolkein, GRRM, etc.? Yeah, you can say it gives you a world you'd like to live in, or that at least is fun to visit, but what does that mean, rationally? What kind of story grabs you and reels you in and ties you to your favorite chair for 24 hours? What do the author(s) do?

I can only write stories I want to read. But does that mean other people want to read the stories I write? What makes it a book you want to break the spine of and not put down?

I've been thinking about this since my last rejection and I've come no closer to an answer for myself. Writing is a solitary profession, and like all writers, I basically work in a vacuum.

[Brita]

Gil- I'm sorry to hear that...but I like your fighting spirit. Instead of wallowing in pity you're taking action! Way to go girl!

I'm going to put some serious thought into this- and get back to you.

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

I quit my job today, so I am feeling crappy also. I feel for you sister, you are trying to do something you LOVE and the appreciation is not there yet. Kudos for attempting it, regardless of the rejection. Eventually you will get there.

My only answer for your question is ONE CHARACTER. There is always one character, or sometimes one scene, that captures me and makes me think I KNOW HIM. or her. or that place. I can FEEL it.

I think you need to put who you are, really truly you alone into one of your characters. Whether it be a main character or support, put you into it 100% and YOU will shine through. The rest of the writing, whether already done or not started, will just plunk into place from there. If already written, the words might just need adjusting to that one person.

Dunno if that helps, but it's how I felt when you asked what we love about GRRM/RJ etc.

Tyrion
Mat
a scene with a poison peach in the Mary Stewart Merlin trilogy
Harry Potter's relationship, however horrific, with his cousin/aunt was REAL
Lizzie in Pride and Prejudice


It is the parts of ME that I see tied back to the book and in turn, with the author.

Good luck. Keep trying.

[Ozymandias]

I think its a lot of things, Gil. I don't think the plot matters, because fantasy is generally a generic plot spun out again and again, in minorly different ways.

I think its important to have a past that seems real and relevant. In Tolkein, the Elves are living reminders of a time gone by, just as the Old Tongue and the continuing fears of the Breaking are in WoT. Having an engaging backdrop for you story is important.

And I agree with SBC that certain well-written scenes are crucial. I go back and read certain parts of WoT over and over, and not the triumphant battles or anything like that. One of my favorites is when Rand drives the Seanchan back in PoD, and his lightning and his ego kill everyone on both sides and they both retreat. I felt that scene had a lot of believable emotion, and some that summed up the entire series; Rand's growing arrogance, his inability to fight problems on his own, the motif of neither side winning while some nefarious group in the shadows (the Forsaken) kind of snicker on the sidelines...

I couldn't tell you how to write it, your undoubtedly better at it than me, but scenes like that make a book or a series, in my mind.

[Terez]

Sex is good.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Like a good girl on a first date, if you're writing a series, you don't seal the deal in the first book. Your heroine comes off too easy, and it tends to make people expect that guy's gonna be her steady through the series.

You give her two choices (at least) and keep everyone, including her, guessing.

[Davian93]

Sex is good.

As long as its not of the disturbing Terry Goodkind variety...although I guarantee that IS what brings in a bunch of his perverted readers.

[Davian93]

The first book of a series must be able to stand alone even if it is part of a larger arc. tEotW is a perfect example of this as are alot of other Book 1s.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Only if you don't have a three-book contract. ;)

[Ozymandias]

Is Goodkind perverted? I'll be honest I dropped that piece of crap after Chainfire because it became abundantly clear he never had any idea he would be successful and therefore had no plot to speak of and is just writing and writing and waiting for people to realize he's totally lost.

Not that it wasn't clear before Chainfire, but I finally realized he wasn't going to end that story until we ended it for him. The number of contradictions and miscues in that story are just endless.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Kahlan was raped. Graphically, in the book right after, apparently.

[Leanne]

Wow...great input Terez.

A big thing for me is characters too. If I can relate to a character early on in a book I will see it through.

About the two choices thing...that is great...but I think it can be overdone. I think you read Evanovich...she really needs to just pick one already...it's getting old!

[Davian93]

Lol...true. I meant from the readers standpoint (at least mine)

Classic fantasy plot:

Young hero/heroine is endangered by bad guy minion only to be saved by wise sage who can teach him/her "magic". The hero is swept up in a quest and discovers they are either a "prophecised HERO" and/or Scion of a royal line. Older teacher/sage/protector is apparently killed only to leave our young "hero" on the quest alone for a long period where they grow up/discover their powers. Hero defeats apparent big bad guy only to find out this bad guy is but the tip of the iceberg. Epilogue strongly hints of worse bad guy for Book 2. The End.

The above summary could be applied for about 30 different fantasy books I've read.

[Ozymandias]

Kahlan was raped. Graphically, in the book right after, apparently.


WHAT?!?!?!?! BY WHO? what the hell is this. You don't have a main character brutally raped!

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Nah, I can read about Morelli and Ranger all day and all night. ;)

Now, Hamilton, on the other hand, overdoes it.

[Davian93]

Is Goodkind perverted?

Every female character in his books is repeatedly raped at some point...he really has a hatred of women at some reason. I'm asssuming someone gave him the clap at a young age.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Ask Davian, I stopped reading even before Chainfire.

[Davian93]

Ask Davian, I stopped reading even before Chainfire.

I stopped after book 3 or 4 and I only read that far because someone gave me the books for free.

[Brita]

OK Gil- what grabs me in a book is (and I'll do my best to explain):

There needs to be a plotline that is strongly foreshadowed, so that there is a big climax that can be somewhat predicted and anticipated (this is what will keep me rapidly turning the pages to confirm my smarty-pants prediction and get a sense of fufillment when that scene is realized).

BUT

At the same time there are enough curve-balls in the story that the climax might not end how I predict- and that will keep me glued even more- to see if I'm right, or what crazy and brilliant twist might be thrown in.

Along with this; originality in some aspect, whether in culture, magic system, power system, setting, historical backgwound or whatever, to keep it fresh.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Not characters?

[Brita]

lol- well for one already mentioned several times.

But actually I thought about it, and no- plot and intrigue keep me rooted. For example, I don't enjoy books just about human emotion (i.e. husband and wife break up, work through their troubles, reunite). The characters might be great and relatable, but it has nothing to grab me- no plot, no big anticipated event, no intrigue.

It's the story, not the characters. And as such, the story needs to move at a satisfying rate and have a promised payoff at the end.

[caladanbrood]

WHAT?!?!?!?! BY WHO? what the hell is this. You don't have a main character brutally raped!
It's "democracy in action", don'tcha know.

His exact words.

[Ozymandias]

characters are totally secondary. For example, Rand as a character is unimportant. Certainly, its nice to have him be well written, but lets be honest; the guy is a total jackass at this point, and blind to boot. But you keep coming back for more because you want to know what happens to him as the Dragon Reborn, not as Rand al'Thor. His impending fight with the Dark One is whats interesting, not as much his increasing qualities as an asshole.

And I read for the history. I want to know what happens at Tarmon Gai'don, sure, but I hunger even more for scraps about the Breaking, about the AoL and Ages before, and Hawkwing and Manethern and Tovan Councillors and all that.

To me, an intriguing backdrop is the most important part of the story. Think of all the great fantasy novels; they almost all have an interesting story that led them to the current point.

[Terez]

Wow...great input Terez.
I aim to please. ;)

[Sei'taer]

characters are totally secondary. For example, Rand as a character is unimportant. Certainly, its nice to have him be well written, but lets be honest; the guy is a total jackass at this point, and blind to boot. But you keep coming back for more because you want to know what happens to him as the Dragon Reborn, not as Rand al'Thor. His impending fight with the Dark One is whats interesting, not as much his increasing qualities as an asshole.

And I read for the history. I want to know what happens at Tarmon Gai'don, sure, but I hunger even more for scraps about the Breaking, about the AoL and Ages before, and Hawkwing and Manethern and Tovan Councillors and all that.

To me, an intriguing backdrop is the most important part of the story. Think of all the great fantasy novels; they almost all have an interesting story that led them to the current point.

I totally agree with that, Oz. And the most important factor for getting me to buy the book...the title and the cover. If the title is Juicy Lilies and theres a sword swinging Fabian on the front, I ain't interested...even though it might be the best book ever written.

And just to clarify, because I know a lot of you hate the artwork on the WoT books, I bought a half book of tEotW along with another book that I actually wanted. The artwork didn't turn me off tEotW though, because even if it was crappy it wasn't what I described above.

[irerancincpkc]

I don't know; what always hooks me into a book is interesting characters. I could care less about the situations they are placed in, but rather how they deal with those situations, and how that helps their character progress...

[John Snow]

of things.....one is a character or two or three I can identify with - this is why I'm still with WoT even now that Rand is a jerk....because I like Ishamael so much. No wait, I didn't say that - it's Mat, I like Mat.

Also, I really am caught by courage, by redemption. Gotta go right now, so I'll expand a bit later, but Card does those pieces very well.

on edit: I think you're supposed to be disliking Rand right now, ireran, that's the point. But on to other matters - when characters are heroic in the sense that they undertake a difficult choice that may have tragic consequences, and if the author is good enough that you aren't sure the tragedy won't happen, then that really draws me in. I greatly admire that kind of courage - for example, Anwar Sadat getting on that plane to Tel Aviv even though he knew he would die for it.

In fiction, the Card Ender series has both elements of courage and redemption. Susan Palwick's book, The Necessary Beggar, is a wonderful tale of redemption. That's the sort of thing that grabs me.

[irerancincpkc]

All the Rand hating... I don't think he is a jerk. I don't think I would be doing much better being thrust into the situation he is in.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Three big things catch me in fantasy novels.

1) Depth of world-building

History, geography, anthropology. That's why I love Erikson, and why my favorite parts of WoT are the ancient history.

2) Characters

Plot is really important, but without interesting characters all the great plot twists in the world will not be memorable. The action has to happen to someone you care about, or hate.

It helps to have at least one super-badass character, too (think Anomander Rake in GotM).

3) What Brita said above about prophecy is good.

I would add that it has to be both accessible (I can sort of guess what the prophet means) and at the same time malleable enough that I can't guess the endgame till, well, the end.

[Weird Harold]

I was rejected for Sword and Sorceress 23. ... She read it, and when she came back to it the next day, she couldn't remember it. (Now THAT, hurt.)

Sword and Sorceress anthologies have a REALLY high standard to live up to, so I wouldn't be too upset. That particular anthology series tends to get hundreds of near identical stories as well. (MZB compalined about that in the editor's introduction to one of the early volumes in the series.) So it's not necessarily a serious lack in your story that made forgettable, but a glut of similar stories it has trouble standing out among. (I'd bet the other similar stories were forgettable for that editor, too.)

It's difficult to say what makes any particular literary work memorable or re-readable. It's much easier to analyze why a particular piece does NOT work than it is to analyze why a particular piece does work.

(My one published story started out as an excuse to tell ugly jokes. :rolleyes: It was never intended to be taken seriously. but it was chosen for an antholgy for a site that at the time hosted some 10,000 short stories. I have no idea why that particular story is so well liked; I've never had a bad word said about it except for an editorial opinion that one group dialogue scene was confusing -- which I intended it to be.)

One thing I can suggest:

If you use MS Word or Word Perfect, turn on the Readability Statistics and run a grammar check -- you don't have to accept any suggested corrections, but the readability statistics are compiled during the grammar check.

I suspect you'll find two things in the readability statistics:

1) The percentage of Passive Voice sentences will be in the four to six percent range.

2) The Fleisch Kincaid and Fleisch Reading Ease will be either a high grade level (9-12) or a low reading ease (<70) or both.

[Nazbaque]

Hmmm this is a tough subject.

We ca't really say that we are re-reading WoT since we haven't read the whole story yet. How many of us will read it again and again after the last book is out and we know how this ends?

One of the things that keeps me reading any story is that I don't know how it ends.

There isn't just one thing that get's me back to the stories I already know it is more of a series of tests that the story has to pass.

1) The main characters have to have depth. Likeable or annoying but with depth. Shallow main characters kill stories. (This is why I don't like Eddings)

2) The plot has to be intact. Too many plot holes or mistakes and the story dies. (Another reason why I don't like Eddings)

3) Originality. If the story is just out of the standard mold it shows. Cliches kill stories.

There are more but I cannot quite capture them in simple form atm.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Well, WH, I kinda thought I had a better than average chance since they did buy the first one. ;)

I have no desire to run a spelling/grammar check on a 73k fantasy novel with made up names and places. LOL If there's a different way to get that information than that, let me know.

[Ivhon]

Mostly agree with Muttley.

For me, the feeling of a rich and full world with history and culture and language beyond just what I am reading is the most important thing. That is what Tolkien did so brilliantly (not that Im suggesting you spend 60 years dicking around with backstory...but you know :D ). The languages, the snippets of poetry, the hints of stories that just will never be...all that stuff brings me right in.

Secondly, insofar as character is concerned, the VILLAIN is far more important to me than the hero. I don't like a raging/scheming near-omnipotent sociopath who categorically stands for everything that is recognized as "evil" and against everything that is "good." I like depth in the villain. I want to feel bad that it had to come to this. I am not a fan of the DO - although I like a lot of the Chosen.
Less important on character is the grey area on the hero - although I certainly appreciate it.

On plot - to the extent that you can break formula and still provide an entertaining plotline with twists and red-herrings (TYVM RJ), please feel free. Although, the formula itself has not bored me so long as there is a world with characters in it I like.

Style - each writer has her own, but I like loose and humorous. Jokes are good - particularly in the depths of despair. However, that is not likely something that you can force.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

So, what makes a stand-out villain? I'm trying to keep mine from being too nuts. ;)

As far as jokes go, smartassed comments work?

[Weird Harold]

I have no desire to run a spelling/grammar check on a 73k fantasy novel with made up names and places. LOL If there's a different way to get that information than that, let me know.

You don't actually have to run the check on the whole novel, just a couple of representative sections -- say the first 10K, the middle 10K and the last 10K; hold the Alt-I (Ignore) or Alt-g (iGnore All) key down until Word snarls at your for pressing a key that isn't an option.

There are standalone readability statistics calculators that don't suggest changes out there, Google should turn up something that will work for you.

(If you've previously done a spellcheck and Ignored the non-standard words, Word should remember the Ignore command and skip over most of them anyway.)

PS: 73K what? 73KB in MSWord DOCument or RTF format usually isn't even close to a novel. :D 73K Words is close to Novel Length but closer to Novela or Novellete length.

[Mort]

I don't think I can contribute with more than that has already been said, but I would like to add something else...

Consider the possibility that what works on a short story may not be what works on a book series spanning several books. Rigorous backstory might not be a way to go if you have a limited amount of space to tell your story, unless you are writing a history book :)

Most of us here are big fans of book series, or so it seems anyway. We read RJ, Eddings, GRRM, Erikson, Card, etc. What we like in these series might not be what we would have liked when reading a short story for example.

I myself havn't read much short stories except maybe those in Legends, but then those short stories already had a good backstory and setting through the main series.

My guess is that you don't make it too complex, match the complexity to your short story. RJ can have a complex story because he have the number of pages to build the complexity.

Maybe a short story needs a strong hook very early in the story to get you hooked. It is a short story and people expect it to be short and then also expect things to happen rather quickly.

I wonder if any accomplished writer, or any accomplished artist in any profession for that matter, really know what the reader likes when they start out. Some are probably just writing on stuff that are right at the time, pure coincidence and wouldn't be published 10 years earlier.

Bottomline: You write what you want to write, if you get published, great, if not, keep writing.

Sucks, I know :)

[Weird Harold]

So, what makes a stand-out villain?

For me a standout Villian is entirely logical and consistent within his/her/it's distorted world-view. Every action/reaction makes perfect sense if you just accept that kittens really are engaged in a secret conspiracy with fuzzy bunnies to enslave the world and turn everyone into cat-food and bunny chow.

[Ivhon]

So, what makes a stand-out villain? I'm trying to keep mine from being too nuts. ;)

As far as jokes go, smartassed comments work?

smartass comments certainly work!

Good villain? I want to understand why he/she is the way he is and almost sympathize. Byronic is good. Vader, in concept, makes a great villain (details were not so good...but blame Lucas). Misinformed, perhaps. Or justifiable anger and rage misplaced and misguided. Maddened by loss.

That sort of thing.

[Nazbaque]

Oh the best villains are scary as hell. But if you are looking for a more on screen villain than the evil entity in form of Sauron/Dark One, then cold bloodedness is a fabulous trait for them. Take the scene in TFOH where Kadere kills Isendre and cuts her to pieces and hums the song his sister (who he also killed) taught him. Doesn't have to be as nasty as that but you get the idea.

[Yuri33]

One suggestion. It's a fantasy novel, so people will let you off for dubious premises. But given those beginnings, you have to strive to make every character--hero, villian, or otherwise--as believable as as possible. Internal consistency in a character's thoughts and actions is paramount.

How do you do that? Take the TL approach! If you're unsure about whether a plot twist or some new aspect of a character is questionable, try constructing a theory--with everything leading up to the point of interest--and try and see if it would pass muster on a site like this. If it doesn't, lay more groundwork or abandon the idea. If you mean for it to come from out of the blue, make sure it doesn't distort other characters\plotlines too heavily.

Of course, that's a lot of work. It's much easier to suggest than to do. Probably why I'm not a writer.

[DeiwosTheSkyGod]

Sorry to hear about the story, Gil, but I like this discussion.

Characters are huge for me. Eddings' books leap to mind. The plot is THE fantasy plot; you could figure out what happens by at least the end of the first book, if not sooner. But I kept coming back to them because those characters were real to me. It's like that across the board. Holden Caulfield, Scarlett O'Hara, Elizabeth Bennet, all MADE those books for me. If you can write a character, or several characters, to whom people can attach themselves, you're golden. The plot itself can be completely subordinate to the character (Catcher in the Rye?), but if the character is written well, it sometimes doesn't matter in the least.

This doesn't go for short stories, but in fantasies, I find that I need a few big events in the book to keep me going. Like in WoT, the Cleansing, Nynaeve breaking her block, Egwene's election to Amyrlin Seat. The graveyard scene in HP & the Goblet of Fire, the very end of the Amber Spyglass, the melting scene in Wicked... Moments that will make me take the book down again at random and open to that passage. Hell, I really didn't like Wicked at all, but I take that book down and reread the ending a lot. Dramatic passages that will stick with me.

[Terez]

Good villains need sharp contrasts. The best villains are the ones that you can sympathize with (maybe due to what they've been through), at least to a degree, or the ones with sex appeal (nothing trashy, jeez...it can be subtle), or the assassins who throw coins to starving children. And that's not really meant to contradict what Yuri said about internal consistency. These things should be believable. Naz's example about Kadere is a good example of contrast, only briefly developed - a nice sharp image of a sick psychopath who killed his beloved sister to keep his cover, but missed her more than anything in the world. But Kadere was small time...that sort of contrast is too shallow for a major villain, imo. Perfect for a small timer like Kadere, though.

[Terez]

Oh, and I forgot this bit:
WHAT?!?!?!?! BY WHO? what the hell is this. You don't have a main character brutally raped!
Just wanted to point out that Kahlan was most certainly not raped. She was almost raped like a billion times during the series but Kahlan is too pure and holy for rape, so her agressors were never successful. Even Jagang only kept her naked by his bedside, and I don't even remember what reason he decided to save her for later but it was utterly retarded. We can't have Richard the Great having to accept a despoiled woman. Now that concept isn't so hard to understand, but by god could you please not have the woman almost raped so many times in the series that it defies the laws of the universe? Her first escape was hard to swallow...the following 999,999,999 times were just fucking laughable.

[Ozymandias]

Good villains need sharp contrasts. The best villains are the ones that you can sympathize with (maybe due to what they've been through), at least to a degree, or the ones with sex appeal (nothing trashy, jeez...it can be subtle), or the assassins who throw coins to starving children. And that's not really meant to contradict what Yuri said about internal consistency. These things should be believable. Naz's example about Kadere is a good example of contrast, only briefly developed, but at the same time a nice sharp image of a sick psychopath who killed his beloved sister to keep his cover, but missed her more than anything in the world. But Kadere was small time...that sort of contrast is too shallow for a major villain, imo. Perfect for a small timer like Kadere, though.


I agree with terez 100% on the villain thing. A good villain for me is someone who has something totally dichotomous about him/her. Terez's example of a guy who throws coins to beggar children while plotting something that will kill them all is just perfect.

I don't know. As I said earlier, having the story be relatable and understandable is key. And I don't mean that like "wow I can totally see myself as character A". I remember trying to read DhG and checking the map after every page because I couldn't figure out where the damn characters were or where they were going. My advice would be to establish some consistency in one area, and use that to jump somewhere else.

I know this is high stuff to live up to, but take LotR. You start in the comfort of the Shire, and learn about Hobbits and how soft and decadent they are (for lack of better terms) and Tolkein gradually brings you into his world as they venture out of those lands and into new. But you need that initial frame of reference, both for geography and the characters. No one would care that Frodo and Sam were brave and selfless if it wasn't established early on that Hobbits aren't like that usually. The progression of the story is key. It doesn't need to be a moving or original plot, IMO... every fantasy novel has the same basic blueprint. But if the characters have a logically developed story, with a start point and a frame of reference going forward, the whole story can come together in a way it can't if you encounter your characters full grown.

Think of every fantasy novel you've ever read. In the good ones, your characters are different at the beginning then at the end. WoT, LotR, Song of Fire and Ice... people develop in these. Even Harry Potter (though its poorly done there). Through trial and tribulation they grow.

I always thought a cool idea would be to introduce a great warrior, someone who seems fully developed, and un-evolve him into something less, like a reverse aspect to the entire plot. All the stories I read are small men becoming great, great men becoming greater, or formerly great men regaining that greatness. It might be refreshing to see a story where the quest breaks the main character and turns him into something new.

[DeiwosTheSkyGod]

I kind of agree with terez. Villains you can sympathize with are good, but there are definitely villains out there that are totally incomprehensible and still fantastic. I'm thinking of the demon from The Exorcist, the White Witch from Narnia, or Pennywise from It. Kind of like Charles Manson in that they're incredibly evil but still inherently fascinating. Of course, that's a fine line separating from, say, Jagang from Sword of Truth, who was just obnoxious to read about. You have to make it at least believable.

[jason wolfbrother]

the main character(s) must have something that draws your attention/sympathy. at least for me. a good example that really hooked me was FitzChivalry Farseer from the Assassin Trilogy by Robin Hobb. from the moment you meet him as a 6 year old bastard he draws you in. Hobb does a great job of generating sympathy for a cold-blooded killer with no compunctions about following his King's orders.


the villain? I need to understand his motivation. and he has to be consistent. evil for the sake of being evil doesn't work. his actions should reflect his own moral compass, no matter how skewed we think it is ;)

other than that most everyone else already hit the points I would have mentioned.

[Frenzy]

Yeah, i'm all about the villain. Or whatever the 'good guy' has to fight against. It doesn't even have to be a person, it can be a concept.

i've never been must into the Short Story genre, mainly because my brain wants to build off of them, and i lack the time for pleasant distractions like that anymore. But there is one short story that stands out in my brain. i read it back in High School, and it was by George Orwell. Not sure of the title, but it was one of his non-fiction stories of when he was serving in the British army in India and leading a man to his execution. Here he is, ranting and raving in his mind about life and justice and other esoteric bullshit, and the condemned man is walking along and, unthinkingly, sidesteps a puddle. He would be dead in a few minutes, but at that moment he was alive and avoiding an inconvenience. That little snippet of absurdity caught in a life-and-death moral struggle.

What can i say, i love a good non-sequitor. One of my classmates in high school wrote a very good sequel chapter to A Tale of Two Cities, telling the tale of Darnay's & Lucy's harrowing flight from Paris. He did a wonderful job of building suspense, imminent danger, i was hooked. Then suddenly the horses reared as a shadowed man leapt out. Screaming and agony, then the shadowed man is recognized by the coach driver, who says "Blimey, Charles, you scared the Dickens out of me!"

it was like getting punched in the gut, then having icewater tossed down your shirt. i wanted to STRANGLE Aaron for writing that. :lol

[Spidy]

I would add two things:

Number 1: I love the adventure into new territory, physical or psychological, though I probably prefer physical. I love looking at the maps that accompany books and see whether the story is going to go somewhere on the map that looks exciting.

On this also, I have been re-reading CoT and everytime someone mentioned that the "beacon" of Saidar could be felt a long way away, I kept going back to the map to check exactly how far away from Aridhol they actually were to substantiate the comment.

Number 2: Throw in a profound statement or revelation that could have relevance in the real world. I still remember being drunk one night and talking books with a mate, and I just had to get up and read the bit out of the Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant when the First names him Earthfriend. Still go back to that page over and over now.

[Mort]

a good example that really hooked me was FitzChivalry Farseer from the Assassin Trilogy by Robin Hobb. from the moment you meet him as a 6 year old bastard he draws you in. Hobb does a great job of generating sympathy for a cold-blooded killer with no compunctions about following his King's orders.


This is probably one of the best examples I can think of where a character is written really good. Empathy levels are high when you read the books.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Thank you all for the food for thought. I don't usually write short stories, true. Most of my stuff is novel-length. (And WH, 73K is what I have towards a 150K+ novel.) I have a great deal of trouble cutting stuff out. If you've ever read "Queen's Anvil," you can see where I hacked it to bits to shorten it. (Or at least, I can. ;) )

I'd post the one that just got rejected, but Tam hasn't given us back the Writer's Workshop, yet.

[John Snow]

example in the group of people who are badly mistreated by society at large. A group of them goes radical and become the molotov-cocktail tossing rebels, thereby causing all kinds of chaos and problems, but for reasons that the reader had been led to sympathize with completely (I'm referring to the group of people who could do the beast-bonding thing).

Speaking of Robin Hobbs, I just read Wizard of the the Pigeons, by Hobbs (writing as Megan Lindholm)...totally amazing book, that twists reality all over the place. You are never really sure until the very end, and even then you're left wondering about the multiple facets of truth and which reality is the more real, as it were - and what difference does it make. It's set in downtown Seattle, which I found appealing since I lived there (although not downtown) for 10 years). Here's a hero who has a heck of a hard time figuring things out, who finally does grow, and a villain that could be the hero.....

[Weird Harold]

And WH, 73K is what I have towards a 150K+ novel.) I have a great deal of trouble cutting stuff out. If you've ever read "Queen's Anvil," you can see where I hacked it to bits to shorten it. (Or at least, I can. ;) )

So 73K is the first half of 150K WORDS, not bytes?

I have read 'anvil', but not for a year or two -- I forget which volume of S$S it's in just offhand. That's really a series I should re-read at least as far as I've got it collected. (It's gotten hard to find since MZB died.)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Yes, words. ;) Hence my not wanting to run spell check. At all.


It's in 15. And yeah, they're harder to find, but the estate found a new publisher, they may start getting easier to locate now.

[Davian93]

Yes, words. ;) Hence my not wanting to run spell check. At all.


It's in 15. And yeah, they're harder to find, but the estate found a new publisher, they may start getting easier to locate now.

Out of curiosity, about how many pages is that?

[JSUCamel]

There are between 250 and 350 words per page, depending on font sizes and such.. so divide the word count by those numbers and it'll give you a rough estimate.

I've got about 25k written on my book so far, though I'm seriously considering tossing about 10k of those out.

[Davian93]

Camel...you're making me do math there. So lets see 73,000 divided by 250 or 350 makes

~counts on fingers~

~takes shoes and socks off~

~counts on toes~

between 209-292 pages.

[JSUCamel]

Yep.

[Weird Harold]

Yes, words. ;) Hence my not wanting to run spell check. At all.


It's in 15. And yeah, they're harder to find, but the estate found a new publisher, they may start getting easier to locate now.
I've found that if you take the time to configure the grammar and spelling checks and spell check in small chunks -- each day's writing or so -- spelling and grammar checks in MS Word are VERY useful tools; and the readability statistics heads off a resurgance of lot of my problem areas in writing Fiction.

Unless the "re-check document" button is checked even a final check on a complete 127K word story (which will NEVER see the light of day, BTW) doesn't take more than a couple of minutes.

Adding the made-up words and names into a custom dictionary prevents you from changing the spelling nearly every time you type it -- which is a problem I see a LOT in F&SF writing

Writing in dialect or using slang heavily can confuse grammar checkers, but the confusion helps you analyze just why the grammar check thinks something is wrong.

(Just naming a character "Frank" causes problems.)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Actually, it depends on which printer I have it set for. At home, it's 326. At work, it's 292. For reference, I'm using Courier 12 pt. and double spaced with 1" margins.

And that's why word count is more important than page count.

But, that's not what its published length would be if I were to sell it at is and publish it tomorrow. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=608972

According to that, the standard is 250 words per page meaning my published book at my goal length is: 600 pages. Current length would make it: 292.


And WH, I've added them in at home, but since I also use the work computer at lunch, I don't add them in there.

[Yuri33]

~Tries to recall anatomy class~

~Pulls out large anatomy textbook and looks up info~

~Searches PubMed for pertinent case reports~

Uh, Davian, I might see a doctor if I were you. There might be a little problem with the number of fingers\toes you have.

[Weird Harold]

And WH, I've added them in at home, but since I also use the work computer at lunch, I don't add them in there.

So make it a point to not spell-check except at home. :rolleyes:

There is away to configure MS Word to use a custom dictionary unique to that one document without adding the words to the default CUSTOM.DIC file in such a way that Word will look in the same drive/folder for the dictionary files as it found the document.

(IIRC, one of the things I dislike about WordPerfect 8 is that it embeds a custom dictionary/ignore spelling list into each document which inflates the file size all out fo proportion to the actual text size.)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Not sure I can do that either. Some editors accept e-submissions, if it adds to the size of the document, not sure I could do that, then. Just gotta do it the old fashioned way. :)

[Crispin's Crispian]

I thought I'd add one more thing about memorability.

Think M. Knight Shamalayan. I know...some think he's a hack, or can't escape his "you never saw that coming" plot twist, but that's just it. What's the one thing that makes "The Sixth Sense" memorable to most people? Imagine if that movie had just ended with Cole saying goodbye to his "therapist" and telling his mom the truth about his secret. It would be alright, but not the same.

For that movie, it's not the acting, or the scenery, or even the characters. It's the god-damned-OMFG-no-way surprise at the end (for those of us who weren't smart enough to see it coming). You build and build and build toward that climax, and along the way your characters develop and change and grow. But the payoff has to be there.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Not sure I'm smart enough to stick that much of a plot twist in there. ;)

[JSUCamel]

Not sure I'm smart enough

You said it, not me.

[Weird Harold]

Not sure I can do that either. Some editors accept e-submissions, if it adds to the size of the document, not sure I could do that, then. Just gotta do it the old fashioned way. :)
MS Word doesn't have that problem with custom dictionaries/ignore lists. It's just a WordPerfect 8 problem as far as I know.

A couple of points about document size with MS Word though:

Don't use the "save version" function; if you need to save a version as a restore point, save a copy of the document as a completely separate file in (on a different drive if possible.) Save Version just about doubles the file size for each saved version.

Make sure you've cleared all tracked changes and invisible comments. If feasible and you can afford to redo any italics, bold, centering, et al save the document in plain text and then reopen and save as new DOC file. That strips out all of the hiodden garbage that accumulates in a WRod file as it's edited (whether you are tracking thechanges or not -- tracking changes just increases the amount of garbage.

If you have a lot of Italics and such, saving as an HTML file and then C&P from the HTML into a fresh Word Document preserves most of the formatting without copying the garbage.

(If you wonder about what I mean by garbage, save a copy of a heavily edited Word as an RTF file and then open the RTF file as a Text Only file.)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I know what you meant by garbage. It's ridiculous how much extra crap is tacked on to a doc so it'll be readable on screen. Fortunately, not a lot of italics. I don't make up my own languages.


And Camel, that's Sini's job.

[Weird Harold]

I know what you meant by garbage. It's ridiculous how much extra crap is tacked on to a doc so it'll be readable on screen. Fortunately, not a lot of italics. I don't make up my own languages.


And Camel, that's Sini's job.
What's tacked onto a clean copy is bad enough, but what's in an edited copy is simply disgusting -- especially in RTF format. DOC format can do in 2-4 bytes what takes RTF 16-64 bytes to do.

PS: I tend to use a lot of italics for "internal dialogue" but few for foreign words.

[Mort]

Why so concerned with filesize? We live in a world where gigabytes are cheap and our internets are fast. Not a problem :)

Make your .doc (.docx in Word 2007) into a PDF before you send it to someone. Otherwise ppl will be able to see all your edits and whatnot :)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Um, Mort, publishers have been known to reject stories for the most specious of reasons. Some have rejected novels for not having the proper margin size, anything to shrink the slush pile; after all, if you're not professional enough to follow their guidelines, you're not professional enough to write for them. Not to mention, ya gotta get in under the firewalls. And not everyone has Adobe Reader.

WH and I are merely talking shop. ;)

[Mort]

Good I'm not in the publishing business then, they sound like weiners the whole lot of em.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Well, writers are all nuts for taking it on, the lot of us. ;)

[Weird Harold]

Make your .doc (.docx in Word 2007) into a PDF before you send it to someone. Otherwise ppl will be able to see all your edits and whatnot :)

If you're submitting something to an Editor giving them the ability to see your "edits and whatnots" is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

PDF format is fine for general distribution (as long as you're only intested in about 80% of the available market) but MSWord 6.0 (Word 97) is a format accessible to any windows user without the problems of trying to run the newest adobe reader on an old OS on old hardware.

Also, being able to create a PDF file isn't something everyone is capable of doing -- me for example; Word 97 can't read or crete them and while the reader is free, the full adobe acrobat set that runs on Win 97 is beyond my budget or needs.

I've never actually looked at the structure of a PDF file, but I suspect that all of the "garbage" is retained in the conversion process. I know that for some online e-publishers the porportion of markup to content in heaviliy edited RTF files causes some very strange results to emerge from "publishing" programs that convert them to HTML pages or various e-book reader formats.

[Weird Harold]

WH and I are merely talking shop. ;)

Speakingof shop talk...

I did a casual google search for Readability Statistic Calculator and turned up several online calculatior you can C&P text into for evaluation.

I tried one 3200 word chapter from a story I was reading online C&P into Word and the various claculators I thought worth testing. and all were much faster than Word (because Word tried to correct a bunch of alien names and terms) and none of them looked for passive voice sentences.

The results were less than consistent. The attachment is Word 97's results.

The online calculators ranged from 63 to 82 for the Reading Ease score and 7.8 to 8.7 on the FK grade level. But it's the one score the online calculators don't give is the one that will make the most difference in how "memorable" your story is -- Percent Passive Voice Sentences.

The story I sampled has 8% Passive Voice which doesn't really look like any real problem until you consider that only about ten-percent of sentences have any "voice" at all -- i.e. either passive or active. The other 90% don't have an object to be active or passive about.

So the sample text actually has a very high perentage of passive voice and it does show the predicted effects of overuse -- it's a relatively flat and uninteresting setup chapter with a lot of "whoever did this" kind of action that leads to a lot of passive voice.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Interesting. I ran it on the first 5 pages of my rough draft and got:

passive sentences: 7%
Fleisch Reading Ease: 71.7
Fleisch-Kincaid Grade Level: 6.8

[Brita]

It's the god-damned-OMFG-no-way surprise at the end (for those of us who weren't smart enough to see it coming). You build and build and build toward that climax, and along the way your characters develop and change and grow. But the payoff has to be there.

Amen brother! That is what I was alluding to, it's the story, the twist, the climax that hooks me and makes it memorable.

Characters are important, and a lot of people find them most importsnt as the comments indicate, but I'm sticking with the story for myself.

[Weird Harold]

Interesting. I ran it on the first 5 pages of my rough draft and got:

passive sentences: 7%
Fleisch Reading Ease: 71.7
Fleisch-Kincaid Grade Level: 6.8
Except for the passive voice, those are actually pretty good numbers -- eliminating the passive voice will raise the reading ease some but you're very close to the recommended readability target for a general audience.

If you can bring the passive voice down below 3% your story will be better. If you can eliminate it completely would be even better.

Passive voice does have a place -- but that place is usually in boring technical documentation, rather than sword and sorcery fiction. :D

[Brita]

Another idea:

Writing a memorable book (in my humble opinion) has inspiration in it. Not just following a set of rules, a certain outline, dictated prose etc.

There has to be something a writer is inspired to say. (i.e. RJ and his world based on a power system only wielded by women). It might be an amazing plotline, or a moral value, a life experience or a unique character- whatever. But is has to be something the writer is stirred to write, a passion somewhere in the tale.

Writing is art and art is inspired. All the technicalities and statistic calculators are useful and needed, but the inspiration is what will come through.

That's why not just anyone can go to school, learn the p's and q's on writing and generate an amazing novel. It is art more than science.

Find that core of inspiration that led you to write the story you did, Gil. See if it comes through in the end, after the hours and years of work. Sometimes the inspiration can get lost in the amount of work it takes to bring it to life.

Think of painters. There are artists who can create paintings that are technically perfect,using perfect brush strokes, perfect colour palate, perfect technique. But they are often bland and uninteresting paintings in the end. The masters are the painters the created from the heart, and often went against the conventional rules of art at the time. They were inspired. I believe it is the same with writing.

In my humble opinion anyway. I'm no writer, it's just another idea.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

A writer who waits for inspiration would be better off watching paint dry, water boil, bread toast, or a flower bloom.


You can be as inspired as Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, etc. But unless you WORK, it won't amount to anything. The key is not to erase the inspiration in the work. I tried waiting for my Muse. Apparently, he's a lazy fucker and only gets off his ass twice a year.

[Brita]

I tried waiting for my Muse. Apparently, he's a lazy fucker and only gets off his ass twice a year.

LOL! He's too busy playing GW ;)

The key is not to erase the inspiration in the work.

Yep- that's what I meant in a round about way. That's why I said:

Find that core of inspiration that led you to write the story you did, Gil. See if it comes through in the end, after the hours and years of work. Sometimes the inspiration can get lost in the amount of work it takes to bring it to life.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

LOL, the first story was inspired by irritation and anger.

[123seem]

I believe any good sory is charcter driven, but at the same time the story itself or the place its in can create that sense of wonder people look to for their escape especially for fantasy stories. True not all the books out there are selling wildly but the ones that do have a general mix between the intrigue of the experiences of the main character and how they deal with the challenges facing them in their world. Oh that and there can be more than one main character too. I dont know how much of this will help but i felt that i needed to put some input forth.

[Yuri33]

(a bit off topic)

I'd also like to add that as a researcher, the majority of writing in journal articles is horrendous. Even in an academic work, you have to tell a story. Beginning, middle, end. Point A goes to B goes to C. I've had to spend twice as long reading some papers as I normally do in order to puzzle out what the heck the author was trying to prove.

Fortunately, every paper comes with an abstract. Even bad writers get to the point when they only have the space of a few hundred words :)

[Terez]

Fortunately, every paper comes with an abstract.
Yes, those things are handy. :D

[JSUCamel]

For the record, there are dozens of websites out there that will convert any document format to PDF. Just do a Google search for them.

Also, OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is an open-source (read: free) version of Microsoft Office. It can read and write in the .doc format that Word uses. All versions, too. You can save the document in Word 97 or Word 2000/XP or whatever.

And most importantly, you can save the documents as PDF files.

There is absolutely no reason at all to PAY for a PDF writer. Not when there are so many free alternatives out there.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I think the point that WH and I are trying to make is that publishing houses DO NOT make it easy on writers to submit. Their philosophy is, if you're not enough of a professional to send them stuff the WAY they want it, you're not enough of a professional to give them a good product. There are actual full time jobs going through the slush pile and rejecting all submissions that aren't following guidelines. They don't even get read. That includes digital submissions.

[Mort]

Maybe it's time to create our own publishing house? :D

Theoryland Publishing... sounds... awesome!

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I nominate Mort to read the first slush pile. :D

[Yuri33]

And run the Word spelling and grammar checker.

[Terez]

Please. Remember...

loose = not tight
lose = not win, not find

[psychomusician]

for me what i look for in a story is a complete world that forces the story around itself. i want to feel like the world was created, and then the author decided to write a story within the world. not a world that was created for the story, and was made up along the way.

[JSUCamel]

Wow. Good insight, O Shiny One.

[Terez]

The wee one is the anti-Goodkind. Because we all know Goodkind is contemptuous of world-building...

[Davian93]

The wee one is the anti-Goodkind. Because we all know Goodkind is contemptuous of world-building...


Remember he doesn't write Fantasy...hes too good for that.


He basically cooks and eats a book of Ayn Rand and then craps it out and sends it to a publisher.

[psychomusician]

Remember he doesn't write Fantasy...hes too good for that.

then what does he write?

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Toilet paper.

[Davian93]

Toilet paper.

More like USED toilet paper.

[Mort]

I nominate Mort to read the first slush pile. :D

No no no... I have it all worked out you see. The younglings do a first sweet to see that they hold the guidelines etc, Elders check for grammer etc. Ancients and Heros get's the slightly smaller pile of scripts and read those for the quality of the writing. PERFECT!

[Brita]

No no no... I have it all worked out you see. The younglings do a first sweet to see that they hold the guidelines etc, Elders check for grammer etc. Ancients and Heros get's the slightly smaller pile of scripts and read those for the quality of the writing. PERFECT!

OK- my first sweep tells me you spelled sweep wrong.

:p

[Gilshalos Sedai]

ROTFLMAO

[Mort]

OK- my first sweep tells me you spelled sweep wrong.

:p

Great! Had it been a story... Just because you seem so eager, here is a shiny new box of stories to check *throws large box in front of Brita*

Dont nitpick on an ancients spelling, been here long enough to be allowed to spell incorrectly, it's all I have left! :D

[Nazbaque]

been here long enough to be allowed to spell incorrectly
No one's been here THAT long Mort.:p

[Brita]

Dont nitpick on an ancients spelling, been here long enough to be allowed to spell incorrectly, it's all I have left!

Can I nitpick an ancient's grammar? :p

~~ducks~~

[Terez]

Be nice, Brita...English isn't his first language. I'm sure his Sveedish grammar and spelling are perfect. :D

[Brita]

True- besides, his ability to decorate far makes up for any small grammar errors.

Mort- it is only with affection that I tease ;)

[Mort]

True- besides, his ability to decorate far makes up for any small grammar errors.

Mort- it is only with affection that I tease ;)

Decorate? Now I don't follow at all.

It's more out of laziness than anything else that I don't do all the 's and whatnot. They are truly the greatest decoration... generation? Where was I? :D

I know you luuv me Brita ;)

[Davian93]

True- besides, his ability to decorate far makes up for any small grammar errors.

Mort- it is only with affection that I tease ;)

By law, I believe all Swedes are forced to use IKEA furnishings in their homes...which isn't really a bad thing.

[Brita]

See- Dav followed my line of thought.

And IKEA didn't paint his walls with dancing silhouettes. That's just cool.

[Mort]

See- Dav followed my line of thought.

And IKEA didn't paint his walls with dancing silhouettes. That's just cool.

Aaah, my livingroom. It's all so clear now.

IKEA rocks!