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Terez
01-02-2010, 04:45 PM
I wanted to do a re-read after the new book instead of before, to catch the 'new' foreshadowing in the earlier books. I've only managed to read parts of 1, 4, and 11 so far (started at the beginning, jumped to 4 because of the 'detail', and then started doing an overhaul of my ebook for 11). Anyway, here are some nice bits that I can call to mind so far:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 12 - A Manufactory
“One day, I’d very much like to see some of these Trollocs I keep hearing about,” Mishima said when the silence began to stretch. Amusement tinged his smell, yet he stroked his sword hilt, perhaps without knowing it.

“No you wouldn’t,” Perrin told him. “You’ll get your chance soon or late, but you won’t like it.” After a moment, the scarred man nodded solemnly in understanding, amusement melting. At last he must be beginning to believe that Trollocs and Myrddraal were more than travelers’ fanciful tales. If any doubts remained to him, the time was coming that would erase doubt forever.


TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 30 - Children of Shadow

At the base of the hill he studied the massive, flat rock outlined against the sky, jutting out the slope almost at the crest. There was an odd familiarity to the way the top of the huge slab seemed to form irregular steps, three up and one down. He climbed the short distance and felt across the stone, walking along it. Despite the weathering of centuries he could still feel four joined columns. He glanced up at the step-like top of the stone, towering over his head like a huge lean-to. Fingers. We'll shelter in Artur Hawkwing's hand. Maybe some of his justice is left here.

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 23 - Sealed

Elaida's face was as cold as her voice. "I did not want you to be brought forward tonight. Not because I feared what happened; no one could foresee that. But because of what you are. A wilder." Egwene tried to protest, but Elaida kept on, as implacable as a mountain glacier. "Oh, I know you learned to channel under Aes Sedai teaching, but you are still a wilder. A wilder in spirit, a wilder in ways. You have vast potential, else you would never have survived in there tonight, but potential changes nothing. I do not believe you will ever be part of the White Tower, not in the way the rest of us are, no matter on which finger you wear your ring. It would have been better for you had you settled for learning enough to stay alive, and gone back to your sleepy village. Far better." Turning on her heel, she stalked away, out of the chamber.

If she isn't Black Ajah, Egwene thought sourly, she's the next thing to it. Aloud, she muttered to Sheriam, "You could have said something. You could have helped me."
The last I read at rafo.com I think, or 13th Depository. I think I have noticed a couple more and have momentarily forgotten them. Anyone have something to add?

epic
01-02-2010, 06:02 PM
for the second, it just sounds like Egwene is being a whiny bitch

4Alethinos
01-02-2010, 10:20 PM
Er, um, do you possibly mean the third one?

I do not consider it whining to have received a rant from that old stiffnecked hag Elaida to be a tad upset. :rolleyes:

Terez, I am not sure that I caught the foreshadowing of the wreckage of Hawkwing's statue in a mirror world. I suppose that you could be referring to the fact that Hawkwing is a HotH and that may be how his hand would protect them.

"One wonders about many things and gets so few decent answers." ;)

Terez
01-02-2010, 10:26 PM
for the second, it just sounds like Egwene is being a whiny bitch
In Perrin's point of view?

Terez, I am not sure that I caught the foreshadowing of the wreckage of Hawkwing's statue in a mirror world. I suppose that you could be referring to the fact that Hawkwing is a HotH and that may be how his hand would protect them.
It's the Hawkwing stedding, not the mirror world (it was a raven monument in the mirror world). Rand's new sword is Justice, Hawkwing's sword. The 'scholars' that gave it to him found it 'submerged' beneath a statue - that's all the info we're given, but it seemed obviously Hawkwing's stedding to me, and sure enough, there it was...

Edit: just realized that the monument was a totally different thing....I have unfortunately gotten in the habit of posting without thinking. :)

Spasmodean
01-02-2010, 10:31 PM
That's all well and good but the minute BS starts with the watery tart jokes I'm outta here.

epic
01-02-2010, 11:28 PM
In Perrin's point of view

In the third one, my bad

She just comes across as a whiny bitch to me. Somebody isn't nice to her and she assumes they serve the DO

Kimon
01-02-2010, 11:50 PM
"Submerged" implies underwater. I suppose this statue could have fallen into a river or lake, but seems a poor choice of words if that is the case. Not sure that this philological nit-picking should preclude the stedding, but if that is where it was found, I find it difficult to imagine how exactly it was in water.

GonzoTheGreat
01-03-2010, 05:30 AM
"Submerged" implies underwater. I suppose this statue could have fallen into a river or lake, but seems a poor choice of words if that is the case. Not sure that this philological nit-picking should preclude the stedding, but if that is where it was found, I find it difficult to imagine how exactly it was in water.Well, the stedding was the only place for miles where water could be found. The sword could easily be lying at the bottom of that pool, to be retrieved from it by Spasmodean's watery tart.

Oh, and the reason why Egwene sounds like a whiny bitch is quite simple: she is one.

epic
01-03-2010, 06:30 AM
Oh, and the reason why Egwene sounds like a whiny bitch is quite simple: she is one.

:)

Terez
01-03-2010, 06:37 AM
"Submerged" implies underwater. I suppose this statue could have fallen into a river or lake, but seems a poor choice of words if that is the case. Not sure that this philological nit-picking should preclude the stedding, but if that is where it was found, I find it difficult to imagine how exactly it was in water.
As Gonzo pointed out, it was the only source of water for miles around, and the spring was at the base of the statue's head (which was the only bit of the statue above ground).

Kimon
01-03-2010, 09:58 AM
Now that I have a less tired head, another thought occurs to me on this mention of "submerged". It's easy to think of Callandor as a reference to Excalibur, as it was the sword in the stone, but perhaps Justice too is a reference to Excalibur, as it is the sword of the true king, and this reference to water might invoke another oddity about Excalibur- it being a sword that was housed in a lake. I wonder if we will find that not only the blade of Justice is power-wrought, but if there is also something odd about its scabbard. Certainly the scabbard of Excalibur was in some ways even more magical than the blade itself...

GonzoTheGreat
01-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Fire had taken most of the wagon lying on its side, but the wagon bed survived, propped on yellow wheels with red spokes. A man in a coat that still showed a little eye-wrenching blue lay hard against it, one sprawled hand black with blood. What he had written in shaky letters stood out darker than the wood of the wagon bottom.
TELL THE DRAGON REBORN
Tell him what?Mat thought. That somebody had killed a whole caravan of Tinkers? Or had the man died before he could write whatever it was? It would not have been the first time Tinkers had come onto important information. In a story he would have lived just long enough to scrawl the vital bit that meant victory. Well, whatever the message, nobody was ever going to know a word more now.Has this happened, or hasn't it?
Rand's conversations with the Tinkers were important in getting him to go slowly with his "Exterminate! Exterminate!" plans, which in turn led to the Dragonmount scene.

On the other hand, as Mat already remarks "Tell him what?"

I think this one will keep bugging us until the Internet switches off.

Marie Curie 7
01-03-2010, 04:36 PM
Yeah, here's one, sort of.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 4 - Summoned

From the corner of her eye, Moiraine saw Egwene, far down the side hall, disappearing hurriedly around a corner. A stooped shape in a leather jerkin, head down and arms loaded with bundles, shambled at her heels. Moiraine permitted herself a small smile, quickly masked. If the girl shows as much initiative in Tar Valon, she thought wryly, she will sit in the Amyrlin Seat one day. If she can learn to control that initiative. If there is an Amyrlin Seat left on which to sit.

The foreshadowing in this one about Egwene becoming the Amyrlin Seat has been known since she was raised by the rebels. And the last bit could be said to have foreshadowed the split in the Aes Sedai... but the foreshadowing that the actual Amyrlin Seat itself would be almost destroyed during the Seanchan attack wasn't known until TGS.

FelixPax
01-05-2010, 12:31 AM
Actually the beginning of the foreshadowing for Egwene being a future 'Amyrlin Seat' came before that example found in The Great Hunt; when just after Egwene channels for the very 1st time, Moiraine says this:

“Now you are behaving like a foolish village girl. Most who come to Tar Valon must study for many months before they can do what you just did. You may go far. Perhaps even the Amyrlin Seat, one day, if you study hard and work hard.”

Moiraine knew where Egwene would place among the Aes Sedai, from the very beginning of meeting her. A future Amyrlin Seat to be, in training.

Terez
01-05-2010, 02:30 AM
That is not 'new' foreshadowing - that became foreshadowing in book 6 when Egwene was raised Amyrlin by the rebels. It was obvious at that point that she would eventually prevail over Elaida.

Davian93
01-05-2010, 09:00 AM
That's all well and good but the minute BS starts with the watery tart jokes I'm outta here.

"And what makes you the Dragon Reborn?"

"The lady of the lake, her arm..."

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2010, 09:32 AM
"And what makes you the Dragon Reborn?"

"The lady of the lake, her arm..."Exactly. That happened in TSR, for those who have forgotten:
For a long moment she considered him, completely unconscious of her nudity. Slowly she posed on toe tips, arms swept back, then dove cleanly into the pond. When her head popped above the surface, her shining black hair was not wet. That seemed surprising, for a moment. Then she had reached him – had she swum, or was she just there? – tangling arms and legs around him. The water was cool, her flesh hot.

Hugh the Hand
01-05-2010, 09:52 AM
Now that I have a less tired head, another thought occurs to me on this mention of "submerged". It's easy to think of Callandor as a reference to Excalibur, as it was the sword in the stone, but perhaps Justice too is a reference to Excalibur, as it is the sword of the true king, and this reference to water might invoke another oddity about Excalibur- it being a sword that was housed in a lake. I wonder if we will find that not only the blade of Justice is power-wrought, but if there is also something odd about its scabbard. Certainly the scabbard of Excalibur was in some ways even more magical than the blade itself...

It is a common misconception that Excalibur was the sword Arthur pulled from the Stone. This is often an error in movies and stories taken from Arthurian Legends. Excalibur was the sword Arthur received from the Lady in the Lake, with Merlin's help.

However, I am sure RJ knew this, and also knew the misconception. So Callandor could be a reference to Excalibur, and RJ could just be allowing the misconception to continue. OR RJ could be using the misconception to his advantage. He wants us to think Callandor is the Excalibur like sword, when in reality it is not.

Further, Callandor could be like the Sword in the Stone, the harbinger of the Dragon's rebirth, but after that not as important as first thought. It has been some time since I studied my Arthurian Legends, but I am pretty sure the sword in the stone is all but forgotten after being pulled.

Kimon
01-05-2010, 10:53 AM
The sword in the stone is Excalibur, at least according to Malory's version. Malory says that after Arthur drew out the sword from the stone that many of the knights and kings still refused to acknowledge him (similar to what happened with Rand after drawing Callandor). Merlin told him to notuse this sword in the fighting against these kings until "ye go unto the worse, then draw it out and do your best". Then, in his fighting againt King Lot of Orkney, he says "he drew his sword Excalibur, but it was so bright in his enemies' eyes, that it gave light like thirty torches". This is the English translation, not the original French, but presumably not an accident by the translator.

This original Excalibur was broken later when Arthur dueled against King Pellinore, the Questing Knight, and father of some important knights- Lamorak, Tor, and Percival. Merlin saved Arthur by putting a sleeping spell on Pellinore, but Excalibur was broken. Merlin then took Arthur to the Lady of the Lake who gave him a new Excalibur, and also the scabbard. Merlin however told him that the scabbard was worth ten Excaliburs, as so long as he had the scabbard he would lose no blood, no matter what wounds he took. Arthur, being a fool, decided to give the scabbard for safe-keeping to his half-sister, Morgan Le Fay, who gave both the scabbard and Excalibur to her lover, Accolon, and tried to have Accolon use them to kill Arthur. In movie versions there is often problems. Take for example John Boorman's Excalibur, there Arthur breaks Excalibur in a duel against Lancelot, Percival and Gareth (the youngest of Gawain's brothers) are combined into one character, Morgan Le Fay and Morgawse are combined as well. In Malory it is Morgawse, the mother of Gawain, Gaheris and Gareth- and sister of Arthur- who seduces Arthur and mothers Mordred. Gaheris later murders Morgawse when he finds her abed with Lamorak, then Gawain, Gaheris, and Mordred murder Lamorak. And Galahad, the only knight who fully achieves the Grail Quest in Malory does not appear at all in Boorman's movie, perhaps for the simple reason that Galahad is the son of Lancelot- something that would be difficult to explain in a short movie.

Nonetheless the importance of the scabbard was what I was trying to draw reference to. An it begs the question, swords do not do well if left in water for thousands of years, nor would sabbards. Justice was powre-wrought, which explains why it is still in good condition, but why is the scabbard? Is it also power-wrought, and if so, does it, like the scabbard of Excalibur have some special magic?

Davian93
01-05-2010, 10:58 AM
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a form of government. Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate of the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Kalli
01-05-2010, 11:51 AM
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a form of government. Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate of the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Mandate of the mass... phaw... Mandate of Heaven is the way to go... just ask Cadsuane. :rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2010, 12:02 PM
Mandate of the mass... phaw... Mandate of Heaven is the way to go... just ask Cadsuane. :rolleyes:Do you think she would lie about where she got her mandate? :confused:
Their heads swiveled toward the golden-haired woman as one, and the magpies fell blessedly silent. Silent, yet hardly accepting. Min could grind her teeth all she wanted, but Nynaeve's sullen glower irritated Cadsuane. The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal. And she had not been put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured. In truth, Cadsuane sympathized with her. Somewhat. It was a lesson not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.Clearly she got her own mandate from a hilly tart dispensing ter'angreal.

metaphor
01-05-2010, 12:44 PM
Nonetheless the importance of the scabbard was what I was trying to draw reference to. An it begs the question, swords do not do well if left in water for thousands of years, nor would sabbards. Justice was powre-wrought, which explains why it is still in good condition, but why is the scabbard? Is it also power-wrought, and if so, does it, like the scabbard of Excalibur have some special magic?

doesn't the scabbard have dragons represented on it? and they where there before Rand took it? I don't remember well that detail.

But nobody should have known what a dragon is before Rand used his banner. Maybe at the times of Hawkwing someone might have known, but I doubt they would remember correctly. This would mean that the scabbard in more ancient than Hawkwing. Maybe it was the scabbard LT himself used? I don't know what kind of significance it could have, besides the scabbard being power wrought, and maybe even a ter' angreal.

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2010, 12:50 PM
If the scabbard had belonged to LTT, then one might assume that he might have remembered it. Yet it is stated that the memory of it is Rand's own, and not LTT's.

Terez
01-05-2010, 01:01 PM
The dragon is most likely on the sword because it was Guaire Amalasan's before it was Hawkwing's. It may be that Amalasan made the scabbard with the Power, and the sword as well. Only Aes Sedai took an Oath not to make weapons with the Power. Amalasan was an educated man, though little else is known about him, so he might well have known what a dragon looked like.

jason wolfbrother
01-05-2010, 01:02 PM
Help Help I'm being repressed.

Terez
01-05-2010, 01:03 PM
Wat?

metaphor
01-05-2010, 01:04 PM
If the scabbard had belonged to LTT, then one might assume that he might have remembered it. Yet it is stated that the memory of it is Rand's own, and not LTT's.


He said he remembered the sword from his own memories, but nothing about the scabbard. Which could easily mean it's just a normal scabbard that he had made after finding the sword.

The dragon is most likely on the sword because it was Guaire Amalasan's before it was Hawkwing's. It may be that Amalasan made the scabbard with the Power, and the sword as well. Only Aes Sedai took an Oath not to make weapons with the Power. Amalasan was an educated man, though little else is known about him, so he might well have known what a dragon looked like.

I's possible, but as I said, would he know exactly how a dragon looks? And, anyway, if we have to assume that Hawkwing had scabbard for his sword that was made for someone else, why not assume that it belonged do LT instead of just a false dragon?




BTW, what's happened to the sword Avy gave him? I bet she'll be pretty offended when she sees he's not wearing it anymore.
Perhaps that's why the sword is significant. While Traveling around the world trying to escape the wrath of Aviendah that tries to beat his toh out of him he'll stumble upon some object that will help him in the last battle, or something like that.

jason wolfbrother
01-05-2010, 01:15 PM
Obviously you've never seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Terez
01-05-2010, 01:27 PM
I's possible, but as I said, would he know exactly how a dragon looks?
Presumably the same way Moiraine knew how it looked. Or at least, she knew that the creature on the Dragon Banner was Lews Therin's symbol.

And, anyway, if we have to assume that Hawkwing had scabbard for his sword that was made for someone else, why not assume that it belonged do LT instead of just a false dragon?
1. Because Hawkwing fought Amalasan, not Lews Therin.

2. Because Lews Therin didn't recognize it, so we know it wasn't his.

BTW, what's happened to the sword Avy gave him? I bet she'll be pretty offended when she sees he's not wearing it anymore.
She probably won't care all that much. It may be that Justice is a better one-handed sword than Laman's sword.

Bonzi77
01-05-2010, 01:35 PM
In the third one, my bad

She just comes across as a whiny bitch to me. Somebody isn't nice to her and she assumes they serve the DO

Which is actually pretty realistic for a 17 year old girl. I've always thought Egwene was a pretty realistically drawn character. Annoying, yes, but annoying in a way that someone with her experiences would be in the real world.

I actually feel the same thing about Elayne, the only difference is that the way the people around Elayne react to her has always been off. For example, Elayne being a silly twit makes perfect sense; an accomplished woman like Dyelin throwing her weight behind her for the throne is not.

Kimon
01-05-2010, 02:07 PM
Which is actually pretty realistic for a 17 year old girl. I've always thought Egwene was a pretty realistically drawn character. Annoying, yes, but annoying in a way that someone with her experiences would be in the real world.

I actually feel the same thing about Elayne, the only difference is that the way the people around Elayne react to her has always been off. For example, Elayne being a silly twit makes perfect sense; an accomplished woman like Dyelin throwing her weight behind her for the throne is not.

I've always wondered a bit about Dyelin's allegiances. Might there be something intuitive behind the fact that Birgitte doesn't like her?

metaphor
01-05-2010, 02:28 PM
Presumably the same way Moiraine knew how it looked. Or at least, she knew that the creature on the Dragon Banner was Lews Therin's symbol.


1. Because Hawkwing fought Amalasan, not Lews Therin.

Yes, but plot-wise what would be the point? The scabbard of the Dragon might have some significance, but the scabbard of a false dragon among many? At that point it might as well be just Hawkings' scabbard and nothing would change.

I'm not arguing that it isn't or can't be Amalasan's scabbard, just that it seems rather pointless.



2. Because Lews Therin didn't recognize it, so we know it wasn't his.



It could easily be explained if LT recognized it but didn't talk about it in one of the scenes we read about him.


She probably won't care all that much. It may be that Justice is a better one-handed sword than Laman's sword.

It was just a humorous thought. But the Aiel do put a lot of significance on gifts.

Terez
01-05-2010, 03:43 PM
Yes, but plot-wise what would be the point?
It makes a great deal more sense than Hawkwing somehow having Lews Therin's sword after 2500 years. The point is that Rand now has a dragon scabbard.

Spasmodean
01-05-2010, 04:14 PM
Was Hawkwing maybe wielding it when he appeared at Falme? And that's how Rand remembers from his own memories as opposed to LTTs?

Kimon
01-05-2010, 04:22 PM
Was Hawkwing maybe wielding it when he appeared at Falme? And that's how Rand remembers from his own memories as opposed to LTTs?

"He knew the man who rode at their head, too. Tall and hook-nosed, with dark, deep-set eyes, his great sword Justice at his side. Artur Hawkwing."

So, yes.

Terez
01-06-2010, 04:11 AM
Was Hawkwing maybe wielding it when he appeared at Falme? And that's how Rand remembers from his own memories as opposed to LTTs?
Yes, that has been the assumption all along.

Eilonwy
01-08-2010, 10:41 PM
I've always wondered a bit about Dyelin's allegiances. Might there be something intuitive behind the fact that Birgitte doesn't like her?

For someone who says she doesn't want the responsibility, she certainly has taken on some big roles! She was always off on some mission or other gathering support for Elayne. It is a bit suspect. If I lived in Andor I would have supported Dyelin.

halo6819
01-09-2010, 01:00 AM
It makes a great deal more sense than Hawkwing somehow having Lews Therin's sword after 2500 years. The point is that Rand now has a dragon scabbard.

the only reason the sword has a dragon scabbered is because its the sword BS took from RJ's collection :)
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/754/My-Sword

Terez
01-09-2010, 04:40 AM
the only reason the sword has a dragon scabbered is because its the sword BS took from RJ's collection :)
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/754/My-Sword
I think it is the other way around:

When I saw that one sword in the collection had a gold and red dragon hand-painted on the scabbard . . . yeah, I knew that was the piece I had to take.

FelixPax
01-12-2010, 04:08 PM
That is not 'new' foreshadowing - that became foreshadowing in book 6 when Egwene was raised Amyrlin by the rebels. It was obvious at that point that she would eventually prevail over Elaida.

The point is that foreshadowing of Egwene becoming Amyrlin Seat of Aes Sedai represented by the White Tower finally became a fact. Before tGS book, Egwene only had the formal legal backing and political support of a faction of Aes Sedai. Now she really is the Amyrlin Seat.

Obvious? Maybe, depending on a given reader of book 6. Yet it finally did occurred in tGS book.

For all we know Robert Jordan could of killed off Egwene, e.g. George R. Martin style (http://www.ebtx.com/something/grrmartin.htm), between 'Lord of Chaos' to 'The Gather Storming' books and she never would of fully been the Amyrlin Seat of all Aes Sedai. :p ;)

And instead made Nynaeve the next Amyrlin Seat, of all people! :eek: :rolleyes:

--------------------------------------------


There was another bit of foreshadowing being fulfilled from prior books which showed some of changes within Aviendha, which came to fuller light in tGS book as well. The need to stand up for oneself, against even Wise Ones if necessary:

Nynaeve hurried to the women who led the Kin, her face beaming encouragement, and Reanne and the others smiled with visible relief. Marred a little, true, by the sidelong glances they directed at Lan; him they regarded as the wolf he resembled. Nynaeve, however, was the reason Sumeko did not wilt like the rest whenever an Aes Sedai glanced in her direction. She had vowed to teach those women that they possessed backbones, though Aviendha did not completely understand why. Nynaeve was Aes Sedai herself; no Wise One would ever tell anyone to stand up to Wise Ones.

A likely reason why no one ever tells anyone to stand up to Wise Ones, is because that's part of the process to become a Wise One in the first place for Apprentices.

Aviendha still was struggling to come to terms was how Maidens resolve conflicts and how Wise Ones generally resolve conflicts, about halfway through tGS:

She was growing frustrated-not with the Wise Ones, but with herself. She was strong and brave. Not as brave as some others, of course; she could only wish to be as bold as Elayne. Still, Aviendha could think of only a few problems which she hadn't been able to solve with application of spears, the One Power or her wits. Yet she had failed utterly at deciphering her current prediction.

She acknowledges to herself, how to change in the same Chapter above, using Elayne's way of problem solving; but Aviendha does not full grasp the final changes needed. In order to become a Wise One, which is similar to what Nynaeve was attempting to teach the Kin ironically enough earlier (tPoD book, Ch.1):

"You are one of us now, girl!" Bair said. "Or soon will be."
"But I defied you!
"Wise One cannot allow others to step upon her," Amys said, "If she comes into the shade of our sisterhood thinking like an apprentice, then she will never see herself as one of us."
Bair glanced at Rand al'Thor, who stood in the distance talking to Sarene. "I never realized how important our ways were until I studied these Aes Sedai. Those at the bottom simper and beg like hounds, and are ignored by those who consider themselves their betters. It is a wonder they achieve anything!"
"Rank?" Amys looked puzzled. "Some of us have more honor than others, earned by wisdom, actions, and experiences."
Melanie held up a finger. "But it is important-vital, even-that each Wise One be willing to defend her own well. If she believes that she is right, she cannot let herself be shoved aside, even by other Wise Ones, no matter how aged or wise."
"No woman is ready to join us until she has declared herself ready," Amys continued. "She must present herself as our equal."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One unmet foreshadowing to come, is how, when, and if the Aiel Wises become associated as part of the White Tower in the future, as Aviendha hints at with own thoughts for us readers:

“The Amyrlin does,” Elayne cut her off. From Nynaeve, a firm tone was a fist shaken under your nose; from Elayne, it was calm certainty. “They will have their chance to try again, and if they fail, they still will not be sent away. No woman who can channel will be cut off from the Tower again. They will all be a part of the White Tower.”
Fingering her belt knife idly, Aviendha wondered about that. Egwene, Elayne’s Amyrlin Seat, said much the same. She was a friend, too, but she had wrapped her heart around being Aes Sedai. Aviendha herself did not want to be part of the White Tower. She very much doubted that Sorilea or any other Wise One did, either.

The key here I think, for this hint to come to reality, is for the Aes Sedai themselves to change to become more like the Aiel Wise Ones. I'm not sure Egwene fully yet understands, how much the White Tower as an institution is going to have to change, including their "Three Oaths" and ranking themselves socially by strength of power only.


Among the first examples of this formal change is shown by three stilled Aes Sedai sisters who were healed by Damer Flinn, and who each later became a 'Wise One': Sashalle Anderly (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/s/sashalle.html) (red ajah), Irgain Fatamed (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/i/irgain_fatamed.html) (green ajah), Ronaille Vevanios (ajah color unknown).


Nynaeve, Elayne should have a future role to play in this I believe too, as in theory Nynaeve would have the most lose under the old system of ranking besides maybe only Cadsuane. Nynaeve has more strength than any other known full Aes Sedai, I recall. Elayne's place in this slow changing of the White Tower as an institution, would be in regard to Sea Folk Windfinders and her prior pledge promising to protect them as a group from the White Tower if necessary:

After a moment Jorin went on. “It is not all of us. Only some. We send a few girls to Tar Valon so Aes Sedai will not come looking among us. No ship will carry Aes Sedai whose Windfinder can weave the winds. When you first named yourselves, I thought you must know me, but you did not speak, and you asked passage, and I hoped perhaps you were not Aes Sedai despite your rings. A foolish hope. I could feel the strength of you both. And now the White Tower will know.”
“I cannot promise to keep your secret, but I will do what I can.” The woman deserved more. “Jorin, I swear by the honor of House Trakand of Andor that I will do my best to keep your secret from any who would harm you or your people, and that if I must reveal it to anyone, I will do all in my ability to protect your people from interference. House Trakand is not without influence, even in the Tower.” And I will make mother use it, if need be. Somehow.
“If it pleases the Light,” Jorin said fatalistically, “all will be well. All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well, if it pleases the Light.”

Elayne's pledge was sealed as a Bargain, too!

Terez
01-12-2010, 05:07 PM
The Amyrlin bit is still not new foreshadowing. The Aviendha bit is a decent one, though. I have been arguing for some time that the Aes Sedai need to become more like the Wise Ones, simply because the Wise Ones are better at infiltrating their society rather than staying aloof from it like the Tower always has. I've even argued that Tar Valon will be destroyed and the Aes Sedai will have to relocate to Rhuidean. :) Egwene is an important connection for that, and Moiraine as well.

FelixPax
01-12-2010, 08:47 PM
I've even argued that Tar Valon will be destroyed and the Aes Sedai will have to relocate to Rhuidean. :)

I too have slowly warmed to the idea that Tar Valon will be toast, sometime in the near future. Maybe because of a future Dragonmount explosion? Linked to Rand's foretell death?

If so, I think the area within and surrounding the Black Tower grounds in Andor, would the most likely place for the White Tower to be 're-forged'.


Elayne even suggested this possibly before:

"And what do you plan for this Black Tower?" Abelle asked quietly. "I...suspect you have a plan for them, too."

...

"Nothing," she told him. "I send Guardsmen periodically to ride around the Black Tower grounds and remind them they are in Andor and subject to Andor's laws, but aside from that, I can do no more than I could if the White Tower were somehow transported to Caemlyn." For a long moment they stared at her, all six of them unblinking.

"Pendar stands for Trakand," Abelle said suddenly, and right atop him, Luan said "Norwelyn stands for Trakand." Lightning flashed overhead, brightening the colored windows in the ceiling.

The grounds of the Black Tower are quite large in size, with four square miles of land enclosed by black walls (see Winter's Heart book, Chapter "Prologue"). Its located only two leagues south of Caemlyn, too (Knife of Dreams, Chapter 17).

That would put the Aes Sedai, Asha'man, the Kin, and Sea Folk Windfinders all within a close range of each other, in the territory of Andor. So I'd suggest Caemlyn and the Black Tower as best choice for a new location of the Aes Sedai, not Rhuidean.



More speculatively, I do expect some of the Aiel Clans and Wise Ones to start building holds just north of Andor's current borders, in former Aldeshar and Caembarin lands. Just hard to see a Wise One Aviendha moving to far away from the location of her new sister Elayne, in the end if given a choice over the long term. This progress might just really begin to occur after the series ends, in a 'Memory of Light' too.

dominominic
01-13-2010, 04:28 PM
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a form of government. Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate of the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Hehehe. Good timing! :D

FelixPax
01-13-2010, 10:15 PM
I have a few more foreshadowing which have been fulfilled by the released publishing of 'The Gathering Storm' book. Interestingly, both foreshadowing scenes each hint at they future deaths, by the very thing each mentioned -- Semirhage by the Great Lord of the Dark sacrificing her; Graendal by someone tracking her Compulsion leading to her death.


Semirhage's foreseeing her own death, oddly enough, by sacrifice:

If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him—and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.

Her own analysis and fears of Shaidar Haran sacrificing herself for some unknown purpose came true in the end:

Semirhage looked utterly shocked. "But ... that's impossible ..." she said. "I felt nothing. You can't --" She looked up, staring at him with wide eyes. "The True Power. Why have you betrayed me, Great Lord? Why?"

Rand raised a hand and, filled with the power he did not understand, wove a single weave. A bar of pure white light, a cleansing fire, burst from his hand and struck Semirhage in the chest. She flashed and vanished, leaving a faint afterimage to Rand's vision. Her bracelet dropped to the floor.

Semirhage never was told about Rand & Moridin's unique mental connection either, by the Great Lord. Sacrificing Semirhage enabled the Great Lord & Moridin to force Rand to use the True Power.



Sammael ends up seeing in advance Graendal's own weaknesses which lead to her death in 'The Gathering Storm':

“Sooner or later you will slip, Graendal. One of your visitors will recognize one who serves him wine or turns down his bed, and he will have sense enough to hold his tongue until he leaves. What will you do if someone descends on this palace with an army to rescue a husband or a sister? An arrow may not be a shocklance, yet it can still kill you.”

...

It never ceased to amaze him that she chose to remain here in a palace well known across Arad Doman, with civil war and anarchy all around her. Of course, he did not think she had let any others of the Chosen know where she had established herself. That she trusted him with the knowledge made him wary. She liked her comforts, and never wanted to expend much effort to keep them, yet this palace was in sight of the Mountains of Mist, and considerable work was necessary to keep the turmoil away from her, to keep anyone from asking where the former owner had gone, along with his family and servants. Sammael would not be surprised if every Domani who visited here left believing that this land had been handed down in her family since the Breaking. She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind’s path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

Seems like so of Sammael's text above was lifted directly and placed into Rand's own thoughts into 'The Gathering Storm' book, oddly.


Even Masema death by Two Rivers longbows is ironically, hinted at in 'The Great Hunt' book, when Rand and Masema chatter together in the present of Ragan:

“Peace favor you, Ragan,” Rand said, stopping in front of them. It was an effort to keep his voice calm. “You know it’s a bow. You’ve seen me shoot it.”
“No good from a horse,” the other guard said sourly. Rand recognized him, now, with his deep-set, almost-black eyes that never seemed to blink. They peered from his helmet like twin caves inside another cave. He supposed there could be worse luck for him than Masema guarding the gate, but he was not sure how, short of a Red Aes Sedai. “It’s too long,” Masema added. “I can shoot three arrows with a horsebow while you loose one with that monster.”

Yes, those Two Rivers longbow archers with Faile in tGS book, Chapter 'Prologue' were on foot, just as Masema suggested when he was struck by arrowheads.

Terez
01-14-2010, 06:00 AM
Masema was killed by Faile's knife, not by a Two Rivers longbow. Also, Aram was killed by a Shaido, not by a Two Rivers longbow.

The Graendal quote is weak. The Semirhage one is nice though.

FelixPax
01-14-2010, 03:07 PM
Masema was killed by Faile's knife, not by a Two Rivers longbow. Also, Aram was killed by a Shaido, not by a Two Rivers longbow.

Oh, really can you be so sure that the manner of Masema's death by a Two Rivers arrow was not foreshadowed in the Great Hunt book?

Faile waved with a sharp motion, and the arrows flew. Those of his followers who had run at his bidding fell first, crying out in the silent forest before falling to the loamy earth. The Prophet bellowed, each arrow seeming to pierce his own heart. His beloved followers! His friends! His dear brothers!

An arrow slammed into him, throwing him backwards to the ground. Around him, men died, just as they had earlier. Why, why hadn't the Dragon protected them? Why? Suddenly, the horror of it all returned to him, the sinking terror of watching his men fall in waves, at watching them die at the hands of those Darkfriend Aiel.

...

Slowly, he forced himself back to his feet, hand to his shoulder, where the shaft sprouted. He'd lost too much blood. Dizzy, he fell to his knees.

Even the Prophet acknowledges the extreme lost of blood, dizziness by an arrow strike. He would of died, from that wound no matter what Faile did. All Faile's later knife strike to his heart did was finalize his death, it wasn't necessary at all. Masema was a goner already. A heart without blood generally equals death, no?


Aram? Only you have mentioned him, Terez, in this thread. Aram was not with Rand, Ragan and Masema in that scene, I quoted earlier from 'The Great Hunt' book in Fal Dara. Aram died in KoD book, not tGS book.



The Graendal quote might not be as literal as the Semirhage quote, yet its just as true in many ways. Sammael correctly foretold where, and by what method she would be undone.


Even Egwene's original Dream of the Seanchan Empire attacking the White Tower, many books ago
was less literal than what Sammael said in the actual telling.

She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower. That had started her awake in a cold sweat, but that had to be just a nightmare, too.

We did not see any Aes Sedai attacking the White Tower in tGS nor women with ageless faces. Unless this Dream is related to another future event possibly? None of the known captured sul'dam and damane within the White Tower by Egwene's novices & sisters, in tGS book, were Seachan sul'dam directed Aes Sedai damane wearing Great Serpent rings.

Only much later in CoT book, did Egwene foretell by Dreaming, the actually attack upon White Tower as was similarly described in event in tGS book:

Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.
Egwene woke in darkness with a jolt. She knew. For the first time, she knew exactly what a dream meant. But why would she dream of a Seanchan woman saving her, and then of the Seanchan attacking the White Tower? An attack that would shake the Aes Sedai to their core and threaten the Tower itself. Of course, it was only a possibility. But the events seen in true dreams were more likely than other possibilities.

Just surprising that Sammael all the way back to LoC book, hinted at the ending of Graendal-- where, and how she was to be found...not the balefire part though. While Egwene's second Dream of the Seanchan attacking the White Tower, happened relatively later in the series, in book 10--only to become reality two books later in 'The Gathering Storm'.


Some might call this weak too...but I at least got a kick out of it, Verin Sedai finally scenes in tGS in Egwene's novice room, sitting on her bed and Verin telling a lie. Interestingly, RJ seems to have abet very indirectly hinted Verin's future interactions with Egwene, many books ago too:

Hanging her dress in the wardrobe, Egwene told herself once again that even Verin’s slip could have been perfectly ordinary; the Brown sister was often absentminded. If it was a slip. Sitting on the edge of her bed, she pulled up her shift and began rolling down her stockings. She was almost beginning to dislike white as much as she did gray.


And found someone sitting inside.
"Hello, Egwene," Verin said, taking a sip from a steaming cup of tea. "My! I was beginning to wonder if I'd have to break into that cell of yours in order to speak with you."
Egwene shook off her shock. Verin? When had the woman returned to the White Tower? How long had it been since Egwene had seen her? "There isn't time right now, Verin," she said, quickly opening the small locker that contained her extra dress. "I have work to be about."
"Hmm, yes," Verin said, taking a calm sip of her tea. "I suspect that you do. By the way, that dress you are wearing is green."
Egwene frowned at the nonsense sentence, glancing down at her dress. Of course it wasn't green. What was Verin saying? Had the woman become-
She froze, glancing at Verin.
That had been a lie. Verin could speak lies.
"Yes should sit down. We have much to discuss and little time in which to do it."


Brandon Sanderman did say Robert Jordan was "a master of foreshadowing" in a quote, during his book tour for the 'The Gathering Storm'. I wouldn't be surprised in the least for someone to find and uncover more small gems beneath the earth of the story.

Belazamon
01-14-2010, 03:17 PM
Hah! Pulled from Felix's post...Hanging her dress in the wardrobe, Egwene told herself once again that even Verin’s slip could have been perfectly ordinary; the Brown sister was often absentminded. If it was a slip. Sitting on the edge of her bed, she pulled up her shift and began rolling down her stockings. She was almost beginning to dislike white as much as she did gray.
Clearly this is foreshadowing of Alviarin's future rise to power.

:D

FelixPax
01-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Hah! Pulled from Felix's post...
Clearly this is foreshadowing of Alviarin's future rise to power.

:D

Huh? Cute, Bela ;)
Except Alviarin wasn't even mentioned nor referred to in TDR, Chapter 27 :D


Alviarin is mentioned directed only one in all of that book:

“Aes Sedai,” Egwene said slowly, “what does it mean to be Green Ajah?” Sheriam’s eyes opened wider with amusement, and Alanna grinned openly.

“Just with the ring on your finger,” the Green sister said, “and already trying to decide which Ajah to choose? First, you must love men. I don’t mean be in love with them, but love them. Not like a Blue, who merely likes men, so long as they share her causes and do not get in her way. And certainly not like a Red, who despises them as if every one of them were responsible for the Breaking.” Alviarin, the White sister who had come with the Amyrlin gave them a cool look and moved on. “And not like a White,” Alanna said with a laugh, “who has no room in her life for any passions at all.”

Besides wasn't Alviarin (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/alviarin.html) already the head of the Black Ajah, by Ishamael before Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve even came to the White Tower...many years earlier in fact.


Although maybe Alviarin mentioned to Verin off-hand that Egwene asked about the Green Ajah, shortly after her Accepted Test in the rings? Shrug...if Verin wasn't in the same room maybe too? Unmentioned of course. Verin didn't just pick a random dress color --Green dress-- to lie with, to Egwene, I think...she watched, listened, and tried to learn everything about everyone in the White Tower include Egwene, and her aspirations.

Belazamon
01-14-2010, 03:42 PM
Clearly by "rise to power" I was referring to her control over Elaida.

Also it was a joke.

FelixPax
01-14-2010, 04:01 PM
Clearly by "rise to power" I was referring to her control over Elaida.

Also it was a joke.

:eek: Never! Humor?!?!? It's all cool. ;) :)

Oddly this has happened before, sigh...I thought Weird Harold was kidding about this comments in another thread's 'Mad Hatter' posting, when he was being serious! Not joking.... Humor is just more difficult to grasp through text only, something is lost in the translation of fluent verbally spoken words to text-- timing and pauses, sense of space among others traits?

I think the joke lacked enough of a prior set-up, for me to follow what your were attempting to contrast and/or be light with-- as a subject. So I thought you were being serious, not trying to be humorous earlier.

Belazamon
01-14-2010, 04:52 PM
That's my fault, I forgot...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

;)

Daekyras
02-21-2010, 05:18 PM
"Mother,a sister who decided that what we do is a mistake would hardly let herself be chosen a sitter. Any such would have taken herself away long since." Sheriam had not relaxed, but her tone took on the patient, instructing tone she seemed to think had the gretest effct on Egwene. Usually, though, she was a little more adroit at changing the subject. "Those suspicions are the worst problem we facw for the time being. No one really trusts anyone. If we could only see how to--"
"THe Black Ajah," Siuan cut in quietly. "Thats what chills your blood like a silverpike up your skirts. Who can say for sure who is Black, and who can say what a Black sister might do?"
.
.
.
.
.
Sheriams face paled slightly. It was a wonder she did not go dead white. "Upset" did not begin to cover it. Yes, Sheriam would face much more than upset if this came out

I know that Sheriam was a major candidate for Black Ajah for several books but this is a very strong foreshadowing of her being black and what will happen to her...