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Marie Curie 7
01-04-2010, 04:11 PM
Here are a few random questions and/or comments related to TGS. I didn't really feel that each of these warranted a separate thread, so I'm just lumping them all together here, though they're not necessarily related.


(1) What were the Trollocs doing in Altara, so close to Ebou Dar? Tylee indicated that they were within a day's march of Ebou Dar. And there were hundreds of them, at least, if not thousands:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: Prologue - What the Storm Means

The trees rustled, more branches snapping. Just down from her hillside, Tylee saw that hundreds of the creatures had broken out of the underbrush, attacking the line of her men near the middle, causing chaos. More and more of the monsters poured between the trees.

How had this happened? How had these things gotten so close to Ebou Dar! They were well inside the Seanchan defensive perimeter, only a day's march from the capital.

So how did they get there? They could have traveled through the Ways and ended up near Ebou Dar, I suppose. Or they could be just wandering down through Randland... However, we know that in Knife of Dreams Moridin was pissed because somebody posing as Sammael sent thousands of Trollocs into the Ways. And Moridin also wanted any other reports of Trollocs and Myrddraal outside the Blight sent to him:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens

Moridin grunted sourly. "Pass orders to your Friends of the Dark. Any report of Trollocs or Myrddraal outside the Blight is to be handed to me as soon as you receive it. The Time of Return is coming soon. No one is allowed to go adventuring on their own any longer." He studied them again, each in turn save for Moghedien and Cyndane. With a smile even more languorous than Graendal's, Aran'gar met his gaze. Mesaana shrank back from it.

That sounds to me like Moridin didn't want any Trollocs running around outside the Blight unless he said so. So unless he sent them, it seems like they shouldn't have been there. I suppose it's possible that the ones in Altara were remnants of those sent to attack Rand at Algarin's manor, but if so, what were they doing in Altara?

If Moridin did order the Trollocs to Altara, then why? Just to cause some random chaos and carnage? All the Trolloc attack really served to do was to make the Seanchan aware that Trollocs don't just exist in tall tales told by Randlanders.




(2) This is more of a comment rather than a question, but did anyone else notice how incompetent High Captain Chubain appeared to be during the Seanchan attack? For example:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

The man stepped closer, speaking in a low voice. "Saerin Sedai, the Tower Guard is all but useless in this fight. With the Seanchan using those… monstrous women, we can barely reach them before being ripped to pieces or blasted to ashes."

"You need to change your tactics, then, Captain," Saerin said firmly. Light, what a mess! "Tell the men to switch to bows. Do not risk closing on the enemy's channelers. Shoot from a distance. A single arrow could turn the battle to our side; we have their soldiers grossly outnumbered."

And later in that same conversation:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

"Oh," she added. "And send someone to the outer grounds to spot the main breaches above. We need to know where the invasion is deepest."

"Aes Sedai..." he said. "The outer grounds are dangerous. Those flying above fire on anyone they see moving."

"Then send men who are good at concealing themselves," she growled.

Yeah, the whole Tower was disorganized during the attack, but come on... Chubain is High Captain of the Tower Guard. And he's getting advice from Saerin? Even a moderately competent officer ought to be able to figure out that they should be using bows against a foe in the air, or using stealth to get across the outer grounds. :rolleyes:

I mean, obviously the man isn't accounted one of the Great Captains. Elaida even longed for the time when Gareth Bryne would take over as High Captain of the Tower Guard:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 2 - The Dark One's Touch

Elaida's mouth compressed, and she drummed her fingers on the tabletop. For the time being. She could not begin to repair the harbors until the rebels finally collapsed. So far, they had not launched an assault, thank the Light. That might begin with soldiers only, yet sisters certainly would be drawn into it, something they must want to evade as much as she did. But razing the harbor towers, as repairs would require, laying the harbors open and defenseless, might lead them to desperate acts. Light! Fighting must be avoided, if at all possible. She intended to fold their army into the Tower Guard once they realized they were finished and returned to the Tower. Part of her already thought as if Gareth Bryne were commanding the Tower Guard for her. An infinitely better man for High Captain than Jimar Chubain. The world would know the White Tower's influence then! She did not want her soldiers killing one another, any more than she wanted the Tower weakened by her Aes Sedai killing one another. The rebels were hers as much as those inside the Tower, and she meant to make them acknowledge it.

Now, I certainly wouldn't generally trust Elaida as an accurate judge of character, but coupled with Chubain's actions (or lack thereof) during the Seanchan attack, it seems he is not a particularly competent leader. However, I would have expected the White Tower to have at least some skilled officers and leaders among the ranks of its Tower Guard.




3) Why the heck didn't Nynaeve have Lan's bond transferred before she set him down at Land's End?

I suspect the answer is probably that it's better for the plot for her not to hold his bond yet or something. I generally enjoy Nynaeve's character, but in TGS she started worrying over Lan, almost in the same way that Perrin worried about Faile, and it was annoying to read.

Nynaeve even thought in TGS about getting Lan's bond before the Last Battle:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 7 - The Plan for Arad Doman

More idiocy, of course. If you were planning to go into danger, then it was all the more reason to get married. Obviously. Nynaeve seated herself on the floor, arranging her skirts, and pointedly did not think of Lan. He had such a long distance to cover, and. . . .

And she had to make sure that she was given his bond before he reached the Blight. Just in case.

Nynaeve knew that Myrelle was with the rebels - so she could have Traveled there with Lan, transferred the bond, and then taken him to Land's End. Yeah, of course she's going to be worried about him going off to the Blight when the Last Battle is near, but with the bond she at least would know his condition and his general whereabouts.

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2010, 04:35 PM
The Trollocs might have been intended to goad Tuon into seeking a meeting with Rand at a time of the Shadow's choosing. Or they might have gone there without Moridin's permission. I don't think we have enough (or any, for that matter) evidence to distinguish between these options.

Somehow I have always had the impression that Chubain was a DF. I could be wrong about that, but it would surprise me.

As for Nynaeve: I can't think of a politically correct explanation, to be honest.

Daekyras
01-04-2010, 04:46 PM
Somehow I have always had the impression that Chubain was a DF. I could be wrong about that, but it would surprise me.


Why would this have an effect if the Seanchan attack? They are not Darkfriends.

Good spot Marie. He does seem a little inept...

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2010, 04:50 PM
His dedication to the Shadow might have been more important than his competence as a commander.

The first times he is introduced in the series are when Alviarin is pressing Elaida to let Chubain expand the Tower Guard.

Sarevok
01-04-2010, 04:57 PM
In Chubain's defense: the Tower Guard hasn't done anything bug police duties since the Aiel War. Also, if anything, they'd expect to fight with channelers, not against them.

Enigma
01-04-2010, 05:08 PM
While we don't know a great deal about the man I don't think we can judge Chubain too harsly.

Firstly most of his men would have been posted near the bridged and harbours to defend an attack from the rebels.

Secondly given how Elaid was dismissing Egwene's warnings I seriously doubt that Chubain was given much info about the Seanchan. He would have very little information on their abilities.

The Tower is a big place and we only saw a small bit of it from Egwene, Siuan and the BA hunter's pov. Where is his office? If its in the Tower itself he would have hard time getting to him men as he would have been swept up in the fighting. More likely he is outside the Tower but he still has to get runners and send them to his men and draw some of them back to the Tower once he learns what is going on. Then they have to fight their way through channeler who are very very good at using the OP as a weapon. Added to this he probably would have little in the way of Channeling support unless he hooked up with some AS who did not decide to take charge on him.

While its guess work seeing the way AS run things I would imagine he is a compitent officer who is good at the management and training side of being a leader but probably not soo active in strategy or tactics. For the most part the Tower guard's role is to police Tar Valon where until recently crime was low. Aside from that there is providing escort to the AS and helping hunt down false dragons and other male channelers.

We all say how the rebels tried to tell Byrne what to do when it came to running the army and his reputation was enough that anyone with sense would have left the man alone. I don't think the Tower AS would be any different and the Captain of the Tower guard would not have the shield of the reputation of a great captain.

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2010, 05:13 PM
I also suspect that any archers that he had were stationed at the city walls instead of inside the Tower itself. In general, using bow and arrow is not standard practice for indoor fighting. So it is possible that he had already given orders to have some archers run up to the Tower and climb the stairs, but didn't want to tell the AS that she was stating the obvious.

A lot of soldiers who spent time with AS seem to figure out that letting them point out the obvious is preferable to telling them there's no need to point out the obvious.

FelixPax
01-04-2010, 10:12 PM
(1) What were the Trollocs doing in Altara, so close to Ebou Dar? Tylee indicated that they were within a day's march of Ebou Dar. And there were hundreds of them, at least, if not thousands:

Its known that Loial was unable to persuade the Ogiers at the two Sheddings within the Shadow Coast to 'okay' the closing of their Waygate. Rand had asked Loial to closed all the Waygate entrances.


Yet why were there any Ogiers at those two Shadow Coast Steddings in the 1st place too?

Loial’s ears twitched, and he gave Min another look, received another encouraging smile in return. “Well, as I said, I visited all the stedding but Shangtai. Karldin wouldn’t go inside. He’d rather sleep every night under a bush than be cut off from the Source for a minute.” Rand did not say a word, but Loial raised his hands from his knees, palms out. “I am getting to the point, Rand. I am. I did what I could, but I don’t know whether it was enough. The stedding in the Borderlands told me to go home and leave matters to older and wiser heads. So did Shadoon and Mardoon, in the mountains on the Shadow Coast. The other stedding agreed to guard the Waygates. I don’t think they really believe there’s any danger, but they agreed, so you know they will keep a close guard. And I’m sure someone will take word to Shangtai. The Elders in Shangtai never liked having a Waygate right outside the stedding. I must have heard Elder Haman say a hundred times that it was dangerous. I know they’ll agree to have it watched.”


And yet, we learned in LoC that, that very same two Shreddings were abandoned by Ogiers year ago prior, according to Loial's own teacher, Elder Haman.

Haman gave her a look and lettered in the name just above the River Iralell, not far north of Haddon Mirk. In the strip west of the Dragonwall from the southern border of Shienar to the Sea of Storms, there were only four, all newfound as the Ogier considered it, meaning the youngest, Tsofu, had had Ogier back for six hundred years and none of the others for more than a thousand. Some of the locations were as big a surprise as the Borderlands, such as the Mountains of Mist, which had six, and the Shadow Coast. The Black Hills were included, and the forests above the River Ivo, and the mountains above the River Dhagon, just north of Arad Doman.


Sadder was the list of stedding abandoned, given up because the numbers there had grown too few. The Spine of the World and the Mountains of Mist and the Shadow Coast were in that list too, and so was a stedding deep on Almoth Plain, near the great forest called the Paerish Swar, and one in the low mountains along the north of Toman Head, facing the Aryth Ocean. Perhaps saddest was the one marked on the very edge of the Blight in Arafel; Myrddraal might be reluctant to enter a stedding, but as the Blight marched south year by year, it swept over everything.

Tangent Stedding notes: (#1)We read about Arad Domani soldiers with the Great Captain Rodel Ituralde using the Almoth Plain Stedding as fortress-like refuge near Paerish Swar in tGS Chapter Prologue. Just before Rand removes all of those soldiers from that Stedding. (#2) We have not read about any events yet, in Stedding in(#2A)the mountains along the north of Toman Head by Falme.


The implication is that something very strange has occurred recently at the two long abandoned Ogier Stedding in the Shadow Coast area: Shadoon and Mardoon.

Considering that the Westland Ogiers have been meeting for the "Stump" for roughly a year or so, it seems unlikely that any Westland Ogiers should be found in an long abandoned Shadow Coast area.


Which means that either the Seanchan's Deathwatch Ogiers have taken up residence there, or someone else has brought Ogier into there from elsewhere; be it from the lands of beyond - Shara - or possibly Ogier turned to Shadow side, from those three lost Steddings in the now Great Blightlands.


It sure doesn't seem likely that many Ogier have been wandering around free, since Loial fleed from Stedding Shangtai, prior to meeting Rand, Mat, Perrin at the Queen's Blessing Inn in Caemlyn. Let alone Ogiers the age of Elders, to the Shadow Coast Stedding.

Ogier Elders rejected Elaida requests for Ogier stonemansons for the White Tower, and other stonemason fleed Illian in the middle of the night after Sammael came to town.


So how did they get there? They could have traveled through the Ways and ended up near Ebou Dar, I suppose. Or they could be just wandering down through Randland... However, we know that in Knife of Dreams Moridin was pissed because somebody posing as Sammael sent thousands of Trollocs into the Ways. And Moridin also wanted any other reports of Trollocs and Myrddraal outside the Blight sent to him:

Yes, I too assume those Trollocs in Altara came by Waygate along the ways, but first originating at least one of the two Shadow Coast Stedding if not both of them. It seems logical. The oddity of abandoned Steddings suddenly having Ogier Elders is a bizarre situation in the extreme...it stinks to high heavens.


Now as to who might be behind those Trollocs attacking Tylee in Altara?


My own money is on Aran'gar being the person, behind it all in Altara & the Shadow Coast Stedding. Mostly because of Aran'gar own prior thoughts of doing exactly an event like this in a prior book. Aran'gar did not care what Ishamael's commands were in secret, he could choke on them for all that Aran'gar cared. Aran'gar also acknowledges to himself, that's he has impersonalized other Chosen before as a war strategy.

Meantime Ishameal was the most likely Chosen behind the 100,000 Trollocs attempting to kill Rand in that other Westlands attack, just 'above the River Iralell, not far north of Haddon Mirk' in KoD Book.


This would partially explain why Ishamael learned of missing Trollocs, because he wanted to send some or all those Trollocs in Altara & Shadow Coast Stedding area into Haddon Mirk instead. Aran'gar fubar'ed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUBAR)part of Ishamael's plans then, because of conflicting goals, plans, and a general distrust between each other.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Of course Elder Haman's own error of forgetting about a different Stedding, later opens the huge attack upon Rand just north of Tear by Ishamael's Trollocs (we learn that Ishamael was behind this attack because of Ishamael's face in Rand's own head, via that "strange unique connection" as proof of this in KoD book).

“You forgot Cantoine,” Covril announced, making another liveried servant drop his fresh armload of maps with a start.

Hugh the Hand
01-04-2010, 10:19 PM
How tall is the Tower?

I know it is at least 22 floors. (The Novice Quarters are there now.) And yes I know the prestige of the tallest structure in the world, but how impractical is the Tower? Without elevators or lifts or the such it would take a person a half hour to reach their floor. And that is moving at a minute per floor. Does the Tower have plumbing? I hope they use the OP to move that water, because I am not sure they have pumps strong enough to move water through pipes in a structure that size. Has anyone ever looked at the Tower in detail? During my last read of tGS I just felt like the Tower would be the a heart attack waiting to happen.

Kimon
01-04-2010, 10:45 PM
How tall is the Tower?



The guide says that it is 500 ft high (trying to recall if Randland feet are equal in length to ours...not really sure). So just in terms of height this is not unreasonable- the Pharos of Alexandria for example was approximately 400 ft high, and it was built in the 3rd century BCE. Of course the Pharos, a lighthouse, had vastly different structural needs than the White Tower. Makes one wonder if they ever thought to place something like a lightning rod atop the tower though, as given its size one would assume that it should be struck quite frequently. Presumably Tar Valon at least is not in an active earthquake zone, so it would be spared from what destroyed the pharos.

Daekyras
01-04-2010, 10:51 PM
The guide says that it is 500 ft high (trying to recall if Randland feet are equal in length to ours...not really sure). So just in terms of height this is not unreasonable- the Pharos of Alexandria for example was approximately 400 ft high, and it was built in the 3rd century BCE. Of course the Pharos, a lighthouse, had vastly different structural needs than the White Tower. Makes one wonder if they ever thought to place something like a lightning rod atop the tower though, as given its size one would assume that it should be struck quite frequently. Presumably Tar Valon at least is not in an active earthquake zone, so it would be spared from what destroyed the pharos.

It's pretty close to a volcano....

Also I don't think the Pharos can be compared to the Tower. Completely different structures.

As for a lightning rod I doubt it had one. Unless Ben Franklin was wandering around after the breaking!

Kimon
01-04-2010, 11:01 PM
Hmm...in the glossary to TGS it says that the randland foot is just 10 inches rather than 12. So the Tower might well not even be 500 of our feet in height. Perhaps one should also ask whether such a building's tower could really house so many individuals (aes sedai + novices and accepted, perhaps also warders and servants) given that the guide claims that it was designed to house the ajahs in pie-shaped wedges in the top half of the tower, and that the tower was 300 ft wide at its base, but narrower as it rose. Seems like it should be insufficient in size, especially considering that the ajah quarters at least seem to be described as rather spacious apartments.

dukescott
01-05-2010, 02:07 AM
The picture of the tower in the BWB is square. Not sure how to do pie shaped wedges in a square building....

Weird Harold
01-05-2010, 06:09 AM
Hmm...in the glossary to TGS it says that the randland foot is just 10 inches rather than 12. So the Tower might well not even be 500 of our feet in height. Perhaps one should also ask whether such a building's tower could really house so many individuals (aes sedai + novices and accepted, perhaps also warders and servants) given that the guide claims that it was designed to house the ajahs in pie-shaped wedges in the top half of the tower, and that the tower was 300 ft wide at its base, but narrower as it rose. Seems like it should be insufficient in size, especially considering that the ajah quarters at least seem to be described as rather spacious apartments.
aCoS Prologue:
From the tall arched window, close onto eighty spans above the ground, not far below the top of the White Tower, Elaida could see for miles beyond Tar Valon, to the rolling plains and forests that bordered the broad River Erinin, running down from north and west before it divided around the white walls of the great island city. On the ground, long morning shadows must have been dappling the city, but from this prominence all seemed clear and bright. Not even the fabled "topless towers" of Cairhien had truly rivaled the White Tower. Certainly none of Tar Valon’s lesser towers did, for all that men spoke far and wide of them and their vaulting sky-bridges.


Eighty Spans is 480 feet -- a span is two paces or six feet and as far as I can determine, as close to two real world yard as makes no difference. Ten inches to a foot in the WOT and the other differences in WOT measurements suggests that a WOT inch isn't 2.54 real world centimeters.

As to the number of floors in the WT, I've always worked on the assumption that the ground floor has high vaulted ceilings and there is a level or two of administrative offices, like the Amyrlin's Study all Amyrlins except Elaida have used.

Above the public and administrative levels are probably forty to forty-five residential levels -- the twenty-secondlevel, where the Novice quarters were swapped to was an area occupied by the Brown Ajah. Since less than half of the available residential quarters are in use, twenty-two stories is probably nowhere near Elaida's new quarters at the top of the Tower.

Terez
01-05-2010, 06:39 AM
1. Maybe Fain?

2. I agree with Gonzo on this one. Also, he seems too young to have been promoted to his position before Siuan's 10 years as Amyrlin. Perhaps they simply underestimated the need they would have for a good Captain. Would be very Aes Sedai-like.

3. Maybe because she didn't think it would be easy to find Myrelle.

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2010, 06:57 AM
As for 3: perhaps Nynaeve was not all that eager to explain about the bargain they'd made with the Seafolk. If (when) she meets the Hall of the Tower, that subject is bound to come up.

Terez
01-05-2010, 07:32 AM
As for 3: perhaps Nynaeve was not all that eager to explain about the bargain they'd made with the Seafolk. If (when) she meets the Hall of the Tower, that subject is bound to come up.
There is that. Egwene has already made clear that she is not happy about that. And now Myrelle is out of reach. Maybe she will die at the Black Tower and Nynaeve can just bond him outright. If any Warder can take the death of an Aes Sedai, it's Lan, especially considering that a) she apparently used the bond to tweak him into being her little fuckbuddy and he was NOT happy about that, and b) she is the only thing standing in his way of being bonded to Nynaeve. We haven't heard from either Lan or Myrelle for some time, and it's possible that this has already happened, and that Lan will be a point of view in the half of the prologue that was moved to Towers of Midnight. (Seven Towers, anyone?) We will see. But with Lan in the Borderlands waving the Golden Crane banner, and the Borderland rulers in Far Madding dicking around like idiots, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Borderlands fall under one rule. The reputation of the Malkieri in the Borderlands is legendary, and Lan is the embodiment of that legend for them - he is just as dangerous as Malkieri are purported to be, and he is probably the only one that actually upholds the Malkieri way of life. He would have never raised that banner if not for Nynaeve, but she tricked him into it, and though she obviously had a hint of what sort of forces he could command from Agelmar, I'm not sure even she realized what she was getting into when she sent Lan to raise his army.

Casabamelon
01-05-2010, 04:40 PM
(2) This is more of a comment rather than a question, but did anyone else notice how incompetent High Captain Chubain appeared to be during the Seanchan attack?

Good points were raised by others, but I think the big thing is the White Tower "air of mystery" working against the Aes Sedai. I think the soldiers thought they would fight attacking soldiers and the Aes Sedai would fight attacking... err... One Power Users (a term like Sorcerer/ess would be handy here). They think of their Aes Sedai as the Invincible Avatars of Saidar. The invaders wield the same power, ergo, the invaders carry the same air of invincibility. I don't think it ever even occurred to him that they could fight back, successfully at least. I think he figured he was sending men to the slaughter no matter what, so he didn't even stop to think about it.

Yes, this is a sign that he's not a great military mind, but then he's never had to face anything other than policing the town in the shadow of the White Tower. Not exactly a hotbed of evil activity. And the Seanchan attack was a surprise attack.
________
Mary Jane (http://maryjanes.info/)

Nordt
01-05-2010, 06:19 PM
1) From the descriptions in the books, the trollocs did *not* have any accompanying myrdraal. As I recall, trollocs HATE the ways and only go in there when whipped by myrdraal (or Fain), so they did not end up in there on their own. I think that they simply got lost in the ways during the raid against Rand and walked out of the first Waygate they found, and ended up close to Ebou Dar. But I'm not sure the timeline matches.


btw. First post here! :)

FelixPax
01-05-2010, 08:58 PM
1. Maybe Fain?

Doubtful, they are Fain's Trollocs at all, in Altara.

"Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen." Moridin scanned around the chairs as though he could detect who it had been.

Moridin's jaw tightened. "I don't know," he said at last, reluctantly. He never liked saying that. "But they sent a hundred Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways."

#1 - Hard to see any reason for Fain to want to attack the Seanchan Empire. Their not the Dark One supporters, nor a place/society controlled by Rand and his allies.

Nor are the Seanchan known to let Aes Sedai move freely around Altara, so the Mordeth side of Fain's personality should have no known reason for attacking them.



The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.Source: RJ and 13th Depositary. (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Difficult to see Fain moving from Far Madding to a place to gain more Trollocs then decided to attack Ebou Dar in Altara.

Fain is more likely to want to manipulate the Seanchan Empire, to attack the nations allied and/or controlled by Rand. Yes, the Seanchan are the perfect organization to 'use' against the Dragon Reborn, Aes Sedai, and the Dark One's own plans.


Besides it's likely Fain has already learned many of the Seanchan Prophecies of the Dragon, during his long stay at Falme, during his talks with High Lord Turak there (tGH book).


Why not just take up the easier opportunities available created in a geographically closer Murandy? To help attack the very interests Fain and Mordeth have a huge hatred for?


#2 - Those Trollocs seems to be displaying behavior typical of the Trollocs, during the Two Rivers attacks, which Perrin learned of firsthand.

#3 - Hard to see Fain being able to order around hundred Myrddraal, using the available limited tools he has: torturing one by one (see 'The Great Hunt' book).

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.


As the Wheels turns again, where is the place to re-create Aridhol, with Padan Fain Mordeth in the story?

It sure isn't within any of the Seanchan Empire lands of control. Let alone Fain using Trollocs to try to get his way in those same Seanchan areas.

Terez
01-06-2010, 04:16 AM
1) From the descriptions in the books, the trollocs did *not* have any accompanying myrdraal. As I recall, trollocs HATE the ways and only go in there when whipped by myrdraal (or Fain), so they did not end up in there on their own. I think that they simply got lost in the ways during the raid against Rand and walked out of the first Waygate they found, and ended up close to Ebou Dar. But I'm not sure the timeline matches.
It's a difference of about 24 days, according to the Chronology (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm).

btw. First post here! :)
Welcome. :)

Marie Curie 7
01-10-2010, 05:13 PM
In Chubain's defense: the Tower Guard hasn't done anything bug police duties since the Aiel War. Also, if anything, they'd expect to fight with channelers, not against them.

That might explain to some degree why they were ineffective against the damane, but not why Chubain couldn't figure that out he needed to send somebody stealthy out to scout the Tower grounds.

Also, besides their police duties, the Tower Guard has been sent on expeditions to help capture false Dragons.

While we don't know a great deal about the man I don't think we can judge Chubain too harsly.

Firstly most of his men would have been posted near the bridged and harbours to defend an attack from the rebels.

That wasn't his complaint to Saerin, though. He didn't say that the problems were as a result of having insufficient forces or not having time to get his men in position; he said that his men were just not effective.

Secondly given how Elaid was dismissing Egwene's warnings I seriously doubt that Chubain was given much info about the Seanchan. He would have very little information on their abilities.

This I agree with - I'm sure Elaida said nothing to Chubain about the Seanchan. I have no doubt that he knew very little about the Seanchan, only what he might have heard from rumors, but part of being a good commander includes the ability to be able to adapt, and my point was that Chubain exhibited no such ability.

2. I agree with Gonzo on this one. Also, he seems too young to have been promoted to his position before Siuan's 10 years as Amyrlin. Perhaps they simply underestimated the need they would have for a good Captain. Would be very Aes Sedai-like.

Yeah, I've considered the possibility that Chubain is a Darkfriend. But if all Alviarin wanted to do was to increase the Tower Guard, then all she had to do (and did) was to make sure Elaida ordered Chubain to increase it. I don't see any reason why Chubain would need to be a Darkfriend in that case. On the other hand, if Alviarin wanted to fill the Tower Guard with Darkfriends, then it might help to have a High Captain as Darkfriend, I suppose, but it would be even more helpful to make sure that some of the recruiters or lower level officers were Darkfriends.

As far as his age, Chubain is in his 40s:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

The Green sister sighed, but quickly began to make notations on the map. As she worked, Saerin was pleased to note Captain Chubain entering. The man looked youthful for his forty-some winters, without a speck of gray in his black hair. Some men were inclined to disparage his abilities because of his too-pretty face; Saerin had heard of the humiliation those men had received by his sword in return for the insults.

So he's old enough to have served as a soldier during the Aiel War, but you're right that he probably hasn't held his position as High Captain for long.

If Chubain were a Darkfriend, would he care that Elaida had been captured by the Seanchan?

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

Saerin looked up, realizing that the voice belonged to Captain Chubain. He had his hand on the shoulder of a young Arafellin Accepted with blue eyes and a plump round face. What was her name? Mair, that was it. The poor child looked ragged. Her face sported a number of cuts and some scrapes that would likely bruise. Her Accepted dress was ripped on the sleeve and shoulder.

"Child?" Saerin asked, glancing at Chubain's worried face. What was wrong?

"Saerin Sedai," the girl whispered, curtsying, then wincing at the action. "I. . . ."

"Spit it out, child," Saerin demanded. "This isn't a night for dawdling."

Mair looked down. "It's the Amyrlin, Saerin Sedai. Elaida Sedai. I was attending her tonight, taking transcriptions for her. And. . . ."

Marie Curie 7
01-10-2010, 05:31 PM
3. Maybe because she didn't think it would be easy to find Myrelle.

Maybe, but I don't really see why Nynaeve would think it would be that difficult to find Myrelle. She knew that Myrelle was with the rebels, and everyone knows that the rebels have been situated outside Tar Valon for some time now.

As for 3: perhaps Nynaeve was not all that eager to explain about the bargain they'd made with the Seafolk. If (when) she meets the Hall of the Tower, that subject is bound to come up.

Why would Nynaeve have to reveal anything about the Seafolk bargain while she was there? Myrelle isn't a Sitter, and there would have been no need for Nynaeve to meet with the Hall of the Tower. I was thinking of a Travel in, find Myrelle, make her pass the bond, and Travel out kind of trip, not an extended stay.

There is that. Egwene has already made clear that she is not happy about that. And now Myrelle is out of reach. Maybe she will die at the Black Tower and Nynaeve can just bond him outright. If any Warder can take the death of an Aes Sedai, it's Lan, especially considering that a) she apparently used the bond to tweak him into being her little fuckbuddy and he was NOT happy about that, and b) she is the only thing standing in his way of being bonded to Nynaeve. We haven't heard from either Lan or Myrelle for some time, and it's possible that this has already happened, and that Lan will be a point of view in the half of the prologue that was moved to Towers of Midnight. (Seven Towers, anyone?) We will see. But with Lan in the Borderlands waving the Golden Crane banner, and the Borderland rulers in Far Madding dicking around like idiots, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Borderlands fall under one rule. The reputation of the Malkieri in the Borderlands is legendary, and Lan is the embodiment of that legend for them - he is just as dangerous as Malkieri are purported to be, and he is probably the only one that actually upholds the Malkieri way of life. He would have never raised that banner if not for Nynaeve, but she tricked him into it, and though she obviously had a hint of what sort of forces he could command from Agelmar, I'm not sure even she realized what she was getting into when she sent Lan to raise his army.

Yeah, Myrelle is out of reach now, which is why I said in my original post that not passing the bond would probably turn out to be better in some way for the plot than if Nynaeve actually had the bond passed when it was reasonable to find Myrelle and do so. It's possible, I suppose, that Myrelle is already dead at the Black Tower, and Nynaeve will just be able to go ahead and bond Lan - but that will require Nynaeve to track him down before the Last Battle begins, which she thinks she will do, of course.

Oatman
01-10-2010, 09:22 PM
I don't think its right to judge Chubains actions without looking at how the Salidar AS managed Bryne. They wanted to control the way everything was run, despite Bryne being far more capable than any of the AS in regards to soldiering. They were the ones who wanted to make all the plans and strategies, despite knowing next to nothing of war. If you consider that Chubain was likely managed in the same way, and that he doesn't have Brynes will or battlefield experience, then its probably no surprise he is dependent on his 'superiors' for orders if he has never had any real authority over the way the guard has been run.

Kurtz
01-10-2010, 09:43 PM
Terez I must disagree that Myrelle tweaked something to have Lan have lovely sex with her. Lan, i'm sure, was more than accepting of the proposal.

Terez
01-11-2010, 02:00 AM
Terez I must disagree that Myrelle tweaked something to have Lan have lovely sex with her. Lan, i'm sure, was more than accepting of the proposal.
RJ shows us Myrelle tweaking his bond to get him to come to her as soon as he shows up. Lan has been in love with Nynaeve since book 1; he would have never done that to her. So you are wrong.

Marie Curie 7
01-12-2010, 12:40 AM
Hmm...in the glossary to TGS it says that the randland foot is just 10 inches rather than 12. So the Tower might well not even be 500 of our feet in height. Perhaps one should also ask whether such a building's tower could really house so many individuals (aes sedai + novices and accepted, perhaps also warders and servants) given that the guide claims that it was designed to house the ajahs in pie-shaped wedges in the top half of the tower, and that the tower was 300 ft wide at its base, but narrower as it rose. Seems like it should be insufficient in size, especially considering that the ajah quarters at least seem to be described as rather spacious apartments.

Well, the White Tower does have wings:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 40 - The Tower Shakes

Portions of the Tower's wings below were alight with flames, and to her horror, Egwene saw several gaping holes directly in the sides of the Tower. To'raken clutched the side of the Tower, climbing up like bats clinging to a wall, unloading soldiers and damane into the building. As Egwene watched, a to'raken leapt free of the side of the Tower, the height allowing it to forgo its normal running start. The creature wasn't as graceful as one of the smaller raken, but its handler did a masterful job of directing it back into the air. The creature flew right by Egwene's window, the wind of its passing blowing back her hair. Egwene faintly heard screaming as the to'raken swept past. Terrified screaming.

So there will also be space in the wings for rooms and other facilities. In particular, the novices' quarters are located in one of the wings:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 6 - When Iron Melts

In minutes, the entire Tower was in a frenzy. Egwene, forgotten, stood at the side of a hallway with a cluster of bleary-eyed novices as sisters argued with one another in tense voices, trying to determine what to do. It appeared that two sections of the Tower had been swapped, and the slumbering Brown sisters had been moved from their sections on the upper levels down into the wing. The novices' rooms - intact - had been placed where the section of Brown sisters had been. Nobody remembered any motion or vibration when the swap happened, and the transfer appeared seamless. A line of floor tiles had been split right down the middle, then melded with tiles from the section that had shifted.

And presumably the Accepted quarters are located in one of the wings, too. At any rate, if the Tower is 300 feet at its base and about 500 feet tall, we can roughly estimate the square footage available in the Tower.

First, if we assume that the Tower is 300 ft x 300 ft at the base and does not taper (tapering will be accounted for in an approximate fashion later), then each floor is roughly 90,000 square feet.

Second, assuming 40 floors of residential levels, that works out to a total of 40 x 90,000 sq ft = 3,600,000 sq ft. Not all that space would be available for residences, of course, since corridors and storage areas and so on must be accounted for. However, even assuming 30% non-residential and 70% residential usage, there would be ~2,520,000 sq ft available for residential areas.

Finally, divide that area by the 3000 sisters that the Tower was built to hold, and that comes out to about 840 sq ft for the average Aes Sedai residence. If we instead assume 50% of the available area for residences to take into account that the upper floors will be smaller due to tapering of the Tower (we don't know exactly how wide the Tower is at the top so we can only estimate), then that would yield 1,800,000 sq ft available for residential areas, or ~600 sq ft for each Aes Sedai residence.

New Spring gives us an example of typical quarters in the Blue Ajah:

TITLE: New Spring
CHAPTER: 12 - Entering Home

The apartments chosen for Siuan and her were side by side a little off the main corridor, each containing a spacious bedchamber, a large sitting room, a dressing room, and a study, with fireplaces of carved marble whose crackling fires had taken the chill from the air. The polished wall panels were bare, but patterned carpets, some fringed, from half a dozen countries lay on the blue-tiled floors. The furniture was disparate, too, here a table inlaid with mother-of-pearl in a fashion used in Cairhien a hundred years ago, there a chair with vine-carved legs from the Light alone knew where, and the lamps and mirrors in as many styles as there were lamps and mirrors, but nothing was chipped or cracked and every piece of wood or metal had been polished till it shone softly. The belongings they had left laid out in the Accepted's quarters had been brought up, and Moiraine's own brush and comb on the washstand, her blackwood lapdesk on the writing table in the study, her jewelry box on a side table in the bedchamber, already put her mark on her rooms.

So the Blue Ajah quarters of Moiraine and Siuan included two large rooms (bedchamber and sitting room) as well as two other rooms (dressing room and study). I'd say that an estimate of 600 sq ft available for typical Aes Sedai living quarters is probably pretty reasonable for four rooms. Just for comparison, the average home size in the US was 1400 sq ft in 1970 and 2300 sq ft in 2004.

Weird Harold
01-12-2010, 04:43 AM
I'd say that an estimate of 600 sq ft available for typical Aes Sedai living quarters is probably pretty reasonable for four rooms. Just for comparison, the average home size in the US was 1400 sq ft in 1970 and 2300 sq ft in 2004.

Perhaps a better comparison is r/w apartment sizes:

taken from Apartment guide dot com:
1Br1B 588ft^2
2Br2B 854ft^2
3Br2B 935ft^2


I happen to live in one of the 1Br1B units the apartments listing the numbers were lifted from and 588ft^2 is a fairly spacious apartment for a single individual who hasn't accumulated a few centuries worth of knick-knacks.

Also, IIRC, the AS residential quarters aren't all created equal; Ajah Heads, Sitters, and AS with a bit more seniority have bigger apartments than newly raised sisters are assigned.

Cor Shan
01-12-2010, 04:56 AM
First, if we assume that the Tower is 300 ft x 300 ft at the base and does not taper (tapering will be accounted for in an approximate fashion later), then each floor is roughly 90,000 square feet.
Isn't the tower circular, making it 70700 feet, and therefore the average apartment 470 feet?
I was going to point out how Suian would still think that is spacious, but even Moiraine, a noble, might after many years of novice/acceptedhood.

Weird Harold
01-12-2010, 05:54 AM
Isn't the tower circular, making it 70700 feet, and therefore the average apartment 470 feet?
I was going to point out how Suian would still think that is spacious, but even Moiraine, a noble, might after many years of novice/acceptedhood.
Itend to think of it as circular because the Ajahs are assigned "pie shaped sections" IIRC, but there's not really anything other than that cryptic comment about how the Ajahs are distributed to indicate the footprint of the tower.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2010, 06:49 AM
Well, there is also the picture of the WT in the BWB, which, like all the other art work in that book, is completely factual and utterly accurate.
That picture suggests the WT is square (or rectangular, at least), but it is a bit unclear whether or not that is a trick of the perspective.
There are also two maps of Tar Valon in the BWB, one of which is utterly useless for this discussion, and the other suggests rather vaguely the the WT is circular.

Enigma
01-12-2010, 06:53 AM
Maths is definatly not my strong point but do those calculations take into account class rooms, novice & Accepted rooms, the library, Store rooms, Traitor's Court etc?

As far as why Nynaeve may not have gone to the rebels to get Lan's bond one reason is that aside from Lan her priority now is Rand. While out and about in the world very few Aes Sedai can give her orders given her strenght unless they carry orders from either the Hall or Egwene herself. Given Rand's feelings about the AS neither the rebels or Tower faction had people close to him who were in regular communications with their leaders. The only unsworn AS with Rand were Caddy's gang of neutrals.

If Nynaeve pops into the rebels what do you think will happen? Word would get out very fast, a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn who was last seen with him. Straight away there would be a summons to the Hall, at the very least there would be an interrogation by the one or both of the two senior sitters.

What evern Nynaeve wanted would be way down their list of priorities. I figure the conversation would go along the lines of "We want to know that the Dragon Reborn has done the last few months, what do you know of his plans, what orders he has given, who has he met, who has he spoke to recently? What you want to go to the blight child? No this is much more important. You will stay here until you can give a full accounting to the Hall. I expect it will not take more that a few weeks."

I'm not sure if Nynaeve knows that Egwene has been captured. Given that Nashaman didn't I presume not but does Nynaeve trust Egwene fully? She knows that Egwene is now 100% Aes Sedai and what Egwene wants may not be what Nynaeve things if for the best for Rand. So stay away from anyone who can countermand you.

Marie Curie 7
01-14-2010, 11:48 PM
Perhaps a better comparison is r/w apartment sizes:

taken from Apartment guide dot com:
1Br1B 588ft^2
2Br2B 854ft^2
3Br2B 935ft^2

I happen to live in one of the 1Br1B units the apartments listing the numbers were lifted from and 588ft^2 is a fairly spacious apartment for a single individual who hasn't accumulated a few centuries worth of knick-knacks.

Thanks for the apartment size data.

Also, IIRC, the AS residential quarters aren't all created equal; Ajah Heads, Sitters, and AS with a bit more seniority have bigger apartments than newly raised sisters are assigned.

You're probably right that some are larger, but there aren't any other Aes Sedai quarters described in as much detail overall, I don't think (certain rooms in other Aes Sedai quarters are described in detail, but the number of rooms within other quarters is not generally stated). Anyway, I just wanted to give an example of the number of rooms that might be found in typical living quarters in the Tower to show that 600 sq ft is probably a reasonable size for such a residence and therefore that the information that RJ provided about the size of the Tower is in reasonable accord with accommodations for up to 3000 Aes Sedai.

Isn't the tower circular, making it 70700 feet, and therefore the average apartment 470 feet?
I was going to point out how Suian would still think that is spacious, but even Moiraine, a noble, might after many years of novice/acceptedhood.

I think it's not really clear whether the Tower is round or rectangular. As Gonzo noted, the one drawing in the BWB makes it look sort of rectangular, so I based my calculation off that. If it's round, then yeah, the calculated area would be a little smaller using a 300 ft diameter. However, we also don't know how much the Tower tapers from bottom to top, which has a sizeable effect on the available square footage as well, and I included a fudge factor in my calculations to account for tapering, so I imagine that my estimate of the average area available for a typical Aes Sedai residence is probably pretty reasonable.

Itend to think of it as circular because the Ajahs are assigned "pie shaped sections" IIRC, but there's not really anything other than that cryptic comment about how the Ajahs are distributed to indicate the footprint of the tower.

Yeah, but the books don't necessarily seem to support the idea that the Ajahs are divided into pie-shaped sections in the Tower. For example, when a portion of the Brown Ajah quarters is shifted to where the novices are, there's no indication that sisters from other Ajahs were also located on the same floor with the Browns.

If each floor of the Tower is 300x300 = 90,000 sq ft, and about 70% of that goes for living quarters, then 63,000 sq ft is available on each floor for the Aes Sedai. If each Aes Sedai residence is on average about 600 sq ft, then each floor of the Tower can house about 105 sisters. If the floors are divided into pie-shaped wedges for each Ajah, that would correspond to living quarters for only about 15 sisters per Ajah per floor.

Maths is definatly not my strong point but do those calculations take into account class rooms, novice & Accepted rooms, the library, Store rooms, Traitor's Court etc?

Uh, yeah. I only included 40 residential floors in the Tower because I assumed that the lower several floors were dedicated to common areas like the Hall of the Tower and so on. And I already pointed out that the novices' quarters are located in a wing of the Tower in this post (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83817&poststop=27), and also noted that the Accepted quarters probably are located in one of the wings, too.

In addition, I used only a fraction of the calculated available area (50-70%) for Aes Sedai quarters in order to account for hallways, storage areas, and so on...