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SauceyBlueConfetti
01-05-2010, 02:17 PM
I was searching the books looking for some quotes about Rand's various swords and this jumped out at me:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 27 - A Plain Wooden Box
"Semirhage," he said in shock before he could stop the word, and suddenly everything seemed to happen at once. He reached for the Source and found Lews Therin clawing for it, too, each of them jostling the other aside from reaching it. Semirhage flicked her hand, and a small ball of fire streaked toward him from her fingertips. She might have shouted something, an order. He could not leap aside; Min stood right behind him. Frantically trying to seize saidin, he flung up the hand holding the Dragon Scepter in desperation. The world seemed to explode in fire.


Semirhage shot a ball of fire at Rand
Rand was NOT channeling, he was was struggling with LT to grasp it
He threw up only his hand, holding the Dragon Scepter
And lost his hand

Sorry, but this makes little sense to me. Whatever Semi tossed at him, why did it only take off his hand? I am wondering if the Dragon Scepter holds some kind of power, or something similar to Mat's medallion, and can deflect weaves.

I realize Semi was not necessarily trying to kill Rand (or was she?). They had the male a'dams with them, so obviously the intent was to collar male channelers. So yes, maybe her weave was meant to incapacitate him, but a fireball tossed as his head or chest seems odd if that was her motive.

I am just puzzled by the idea that ONLY his hand was injured.

wolframbohr2
01-05-2010, 02:33 PM
Maybe the ball of fire was something different, but it looked like regular fire? Maybe it was a weave that only hurt flesh or living tissue?

Maybe there was an interaction between the fireball weave and Cady's accessories that only caused it to take off the hand?

Or maybe it is just part of the pattern and the scepter surviving was just one of those very rare things. If you look at house fires, it is amzing what survives unscathed.

Terez
01-05-2010, 03:38 PM
The Dragon Scepter was destroyed. It says that in the next paragraph.

Bane Darkwulf
01-05-2010, 03:55 PM
The weave was probably designed with the intnt of destroying anything organic it hit, and only having a small kill radius.

Ieyasu
01-05-2010, 08:59 PM
I was searching the books looking for some quotes about Rand's various swords and this jumped out at me:



Semirhage shot a ball of fire at Rand
Rand was NOT channeling, he was was struggling with LT to grasp it
He threw up only his hand, holding the Dragon Scepter
And lost his hand

Sorry, but this makes little sense to me. Whatever Semi tossed at him, why did it only take off his hand? I am wondering if the Dragon Scepter holds some kind of power, or something similar to Mat's medallion, and can deflect weaves.

I realize Semi was not necessarily trying to kill Rand (or was she?). They had the male a'dams with them, so obviously the intent was to collar male channelers. So yes, maybe her weave was meant to incapacitate him, but a fireball tossed as his head or chest seems odd if that was her motive.

I am just puzzled by the idea that ONLY his hand was injured.

His eye's were also injured. Nyn healed what she could, including the stump, but both his old wounds persisted, as well as the trouble with his eyes.

Yuri33
01-06-2010, 12:01 AM
It was a weak-ass ball of Fire launched in a moment of surprise. Otherwise, Rand would have likely died:

TGS, Prologue:
Mesaana's lips formed a line, but she did not argue. "Moridin," she said, tone less demanding. "You saw the wisdom in agreeing to meet with us. Surely that was because you are as shocked as we are. We do not have the resources to help her ourselves; she is bound to be well guarded by Aes Sedai and those Asha'man. You need to help us free her."

"Semirhage deserves her imprisonment," Moridin said, resting his arm on the mantel, still turned away from Mesaana.

Semirhage, captured? Graendal had just barely learned that the woman was impersonating an important Seanchan! What had she done to get herself captured? If there were Asha'man, then it seemed she'd managed to be taken by al'Thor himself!

Despite her startlement, Graendal maintained her knowing smile. Demandred glanced at her. If he and Mesaana had asked for this meeting, then why had Moridin sent for Graendal?

"But think of what Semirhage might reveal!" Mesaana said, ignoring Graendal. "Beyond that, she is one of the Chosen. It is our duty to aid her."

And beyond that, Graendal thought, she is a member of the little alliance you two made. Perhaps the strongest member. Losing her will be a blow to your bid for control of the Chosen.

"She disobeyed," Moridin said. "She was not to try to kill al'Thor."

"She didn't intend to," Mesaana said hastily. "Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill."

So it seems reasonable that all he lost was the scepter and his hand. And in reality, he lost more than his hand, but Nynaeve was there to Heal much of it back.

Terez
01-06-2010, 04:09 AM
More to the point, Rand could have easily dodged Semirhage's fireball altogether if he hadn't been worried about Min being behind him.

lurk
01-07-2010, 11:16 AM
an interesting side question is:
what does a ball of fire actually do?

in the series balls of fire are used to set trollocs afire, but is it just like setting the fire or does the weave also keep it burning, a fireball seems like a tied of weave to me so is it like a "sticky weave" of just a fire with a limited amount of energy.

the latter could explain why only a part of Rand got burned away, like a hand burned of no energy left fire ends

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-07-2010, 02:20 PM
More to the point, Rand could have easily dodged Semirhage's fireball altogether if he hadn't been worried about Min being behind him.

I guess my question then is, why did she throw it and aim at his head/upper body? Was she trying to kill him and capture the OTHER asha'man? I don't think so. So why throw something at him that could significantly hurt him/kill him? I understand the "witness" said it was a reaction of surprise, but even that makes little sense. What in god's green earth did she EXPECT to happen? She likely thought her cover of illustion would hold, and may be shocked it didn't, but this women strikes me as someone who plans things out pretty well.

I am just puzzled.

Weird Harold
01-07-2010, 04:02 PM
an interesting side question is:
what does a ball of fire actually do?

in the series balls of fire are used to set trollocs afire, but is it just like setting the fire or does the weave also keep it burning, a fireball seems like a tied of weave to me so is it like a "sticky weave" of just a fire with a limited amount of energy.

the latter could explain why only a part of Rand got burned away, like a hand burned of no energy left fire ends
I'm pretty sure that "fireball" is a generic term for a whole range of offensive weaves. The one Semirhage threw at Rand seems to have been akin to a "hot shot" -- solid cannonballs heated red hot before loading -- while others we have seen used are closer to napalm and/or white phosphorus.

I think Semirhage's fireball was intended to miss Rand while distracting him long enough for her to do something else.

Kimon
01-07-2010, 05:41 PM
I guess my question then is, why did she throw it and aim at his head/upper body? Was she trying to kill him and capture the OTHER asha'man? I don't think so. So why throw something at him that could significantly hurt him/kill him? I understand the "witness" said it was a reaction of surprise, but even that makes little sense. What in god's green earth did she EXPECT to happen? She likely thought her cover of illustion would hold, and may be shocked it didn't, but this women strikes me as someone who plans things out pretty well.

I am just puzzled.

Who exactly might this "witness" be? Can we presume that it means what it seems, that this is part of the actual delegation that Rand brought with him to the meeting rather than some member of the larger retinue, who would not have been present to witness the original casting? If so that would seem to imply that one of these is Black/Darkfriend- Rand, Min, Nynaeve, and Cadsuane all seem above suspicion, that would leave Logain, Narishma, and Sandomere. Narishma and Logain also seem to walk in the light, does this throw suspicion on Sandomere?

Kimon
01-07-2010, 05:45 PM
Whoops, apparently Mesaana said the informant was a woman. I suppose it could just be Elza- even if she wasn't there until after the fact.

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2010, 05:48 PM
It could also be a sul'dam or even a damane. Unlikely, that last, but not utterly impossible.

Terez
01-07-2010, 09:32 PM
No; the last is impossible; the former is unlikely, since Darkfriends are rare among sul'dam.

Weird Harold
01-08-2010, 05:27 PM
No; the last is impossible; the former is unlikely, since Darkfriends are rare among sul'dam.
The "source" need not be a darkfriend, they only need to be interrogated by a darkfriend. Slipping on the bracelet of a damane would get anyone (female) who can channel anything the damane knows.

It doesn't appear likely that Mesaana's source was an eyewitness but her source apparently had access to an eyewitness sufficient to get a detailed report -- which may or may not have been voluntary.

Terez
01-08-2010, 05:56 PM
The "source" need not be a darkfriend, they only need to be interrogated by a darkfriend. Slipping on the bracelet of a damane would get anyone (female) who can channel anything the damane knows.
Mesaana referred to her as 'our woman there'. That implies both that a) the woman regularly reports, and b) she was actually there.

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2010, 05:11 AM
No; the last is impossible; the former is unlikely, since Darkfriends are rare among sul'dam.Can you show me the damane related quote?
I know there is one about damane being DFs (or not being DFs, as may be the case), but I can't remember what it says precisely and I haven't managed to find it.

Terez
01-09-2010, 05:39 AM
Can you show me the damane related quote?
I know there is one about damane being DFs (or not being DFs, as may be the case), but I can't remember what it says precisely and I haven't managed to find it.
Damane are not Darkfriends because they are not people. Their 'superiors' in Seanchan don't see them as people and they don't see themselves as people. In Seanchan, having a Darkfriend damane would be like having a Darkfriend dog.

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
PROLOGUE - Embers Falling on Dry Grass

Except, she enjoyed owning the former Aes Sedai who once had been so haughty with her. Making her a perfect da’covale in every way would be a great pleasure. It was time to have the woman collared, however. Already irritating rumors buzzed of an uncollared marath’damane among her servants. It would be a twelve-day wonder when the sul’dam discovered she was shielded in some way so she could not channel, yet that would help answer the question of why she had not been leashed before. Elbar would need to find some Atha’an Shadar among the sul’dam, though. That was never an easy task—relatively few sul’dam turned to the Great Lord, oddly—and she no longer really trusted any sul’dam, but perhaps Atha’an Shadar could be trusted more than the rest.
Suroth doesn't understand why there are so few sul'dam because she does not understand that her own insecurities are what led her to turn to the Shadow. The sul'dam have a highly respected place in society, so little reason to want more in the first place, but the difference between the sul'dam and Suroth and Sheriam is that, as sul'dam, they will never in their life rise higher, except to be a der'suldam. There are occasional odd occurrences like Tuon and Alwhin (though I get the impression in both cases that it was generally unheard of), but then there is also the fact that sul'dam get addicted to the Power just as if they had already channeled it, so there is nothing more they want than to be 'complete' with a damane. So, Darkfriends among the sul'dam aren't unheard of, but they're rare. Darkfriends among the damane are not even considered. I suppose Semirhage could have tortured or Compelled one of them, but it seems unlikely when it would be a lot easier to torture or Compel a sul'dam.

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2010, 05:52 AM
Of course, your very quote shows that there would be at least one DF damane: Liandrin. Any other DF who got leashed after turning to the Shadow would similarly qualify. As would those that turned before fully accepting their lot in life, if they could find some way of swearing allegiance to the Shadow.

Terez
01-09-2010, 06:52 AM
In the case of Liandrin, whose Darkfriend network is on this continent (where she remains), it's different because her network does not see her as a marath'damane. In Seanchan, the cultural mindset would not allow a Darkfriend to remain one after being collared.

So, technically Mylen could be a Darkfriend, but Semirhage didn't appear to have any Randland damane with her. Certainly no Aes Sedai faces.