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wolframbohr2
01-07-2010, 03:56 AM
I have given some thought to the iron part of the Finn agreement and Mat's dagger when he entered there.

Could iron in the agreement actually be cuendillar?

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Toronto 27 January 2003 - Réal Hepelle reporting

I asked him why Egwene would want to change an iron chain into cuendillar (making sure that I pronounced it correctly CWAINDEEYAR :) I thought he would send me packing if I made a pronunciation mistake). I understood that the chain prevented enemy boats from entering Tar Valon, but I wasn't sure why she would want to make it indestructible.

He responded that iron doesn't TURN into cuendillar, iron is the base of cuendillar. He said that the links of the chain fuse together and become a solid piece. Thus making the chain impossible to raise, lower, or remove. This prevents boats from entering AND leaving Tar Valon. It then became obvious that this was a way for Egwene to succesfully siege the island without using the One Power on anyone (as Lord Gareth wanted). I don't know why I didn't realize this on my own, but thought others might want the additional insight.


We know the world on the other side of the doorway has differnet natural laws.

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

RJ: "When Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal, it burned in part because both were channeling, and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws. The odd optical effects witnessed in that other world are not artificially produced artifacts."

Since there are different natural laws, could the Finn not reguard Mat's dagger as iron, but reguard cuendillar as "iron"?

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2010, 03:58 AM
Could be. Are you suggesting that Mat steals the Tar Valon harbor chain and lugs it with him into the ToG?

wolframbohr2
01-07-2010, 04:35 AM
Could be. Are you suggesting that Mat steals the Tar Valon harbor chain and lugs it with him into the ToG?

That would be an interesting use for them, since they have no current use. And chains do bind...hmmm

But maybe it is any piece, but there is the problem of him getting some and why he would bring it with him. Unless he just happens to be carrying something.

But it also begs the question, will they break the agreements in ToG? If they do will it be on purpose or accidental? Could they be mistaken about the iron, but luckly have a piece of
cuendillar with them in what ever supplies that took?

Maybe the agreemnts have something to do with Apollo? He was the god of the sun (light) the lyre (music) and associated with the arrows and swords (iron). Snakes are associated with him too, and wolves...could a fox be a stretch for wolves?

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2010, 04:49 AM
Another question, which you seem to have overlooked, is: are the agreements relevant at all to the ToG?

The impression I always got was that those agreements applied to the doorways specifically. If you enter through the ToG, then there are no limits on what you are allowed to carry in, but neither are there any limits on what they may do to you. In other words, You're On Your Own (YOYO).

wolframbohr2
01-07-2010, 05:04 AM
Another question, which you seem to have overlooked, is: are the agreements relevant at all to the ToG?

The impression I always got was that those agreements applied to the doorways specifically. If you enter through the ToG, then there are no limits on what you are allowed to carry in, but neither are there any limits on what they may do to you. In other words, You're On Your Own (YOYO).

Interesting. But I don't know. We know of no one who entered through ToG(there is speculation but no definative proof, yet), so we do not know for sure. On the flip side, there could be other rules that ToG has that the doorways do not.

Either way, it "should" be interesting. I hope the ToG section is not a let down, or happnes off scene. That would be evil. Then again, have it off scene at the begining of the book, then do a flash back at the end of the book, boy that would anger people as if they got hit by bullet ants.

Daekyras
01-07-2010, 05:59 AM
Another question, which you seem to have overlooked, is: are the agreements relevant at all to the ToG?


I mentioned this before but I think the important thing about the next trip to the *finn is that Mat is going to CHEAT.

We have seen it foreshadowed many, many times. Especially since Olver was introduced. With this in mind does it even matter if the accords are in place?

Also, does it effect the viewings Min and Egwene had of him losing an eye? i.e. he gives up half the light of the world to save the world but then he finds someway to renege on the agreement...Sorry no quotes. Again :D

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2010, 06:22 AM
I mentioned this before but I think the important thing about the next trip to the *finn is that Mat is going to CHEAT.

We have seen it foreshadowed many, many times. Especially since Olver was introduced. With this in mind does it even matter if the accords are in place?Of course it does. If there are no accords to break, then breaking them isn't cheating.

WinespringBrother
01-07-2010, 08:02 AM
Per Moiraine's discourse to the super girls mentioned the following rules when using the doorway: no frivolous questions, getting all answers before leaving, going through the doorway once (though that is enforced by the laws of magic), and no questions touching the Shadow. She didn't mention anything about the prohibited items though. However, while she stated the known dangers, she thought it was worth the risk of going in, and of letting the super girls know of the existence and purpose of the doorway.

However, Birgitte warned Perrin off from going into the Tower of Ghenjei, saying it is too dangerous. That may imply that no agreements are in place for anyone who uses that portal, and that adventurers must bring in the prohibited items for their own survival.

When Mat and co. go to rescue Moiraine, they will need to trade something of value most likely to free her, since she is probably being held as an object of value just for this purpose (like their stores of ter'angreal). I wonder of someone from the Shadow (maybe Slayer) went in to trade something for Lanfear's freedom. I hope Mat does a little research before returning and realizes he should be ready to barter. Or maybe he will try to gamble with them though who knows if his luck will work there.

Terez
01-07-2010, 08:30 AM
I tend to look for clues surrounding Farstrider, for the iron, simply because Thom is the musician and Mat has been using fire as a weapon since book 3. Not that I really have any good ideas on it. Then there's also the possibility that the 3rd person will be someone else - we're only really sure about Mat and Thom.

lurk
01-07-2010, 09:11 AM
Of course it does. If there are no accords to break, then breaking them isn't cheating.

what actually constituates as cheating in the game of snakes and foxes? there are moves to be done but to win you must cheat, HOW? I cannot seem to find any clues in the books to what the precise rules of the game are except that no iron, no music and no fire rule

FelixPax
01-07-2010, 10:36 AM
I mentioned this before but I think the important thing about the next trip to the *finn is that Mat is going to CHEAT.

In total agreement here.

Except the last time Mat saw the Aelfinn's realm he in essence "cheated" by having a 2nd ta'veren walk into the same realm at the same time: Rand. And then an additional hero entered at the same time, too: Moiraine.

Whereas, the first time Mat saw the Eelfinn's realm he was without the help of another ta'veren nor another hero to in essence threaten the Eelfinn to release himself willingly alive and give an extra request freely: above the 3 requests set by an ancient treaty.


Notice the Aelfinn actually gave Mat more than 3 answers, with Rand and Moiraine's presents elsewhere where in the realm.


This time around, if Mat & Thom & the 3rd person end up going to the Eelfinn's realm where Moiraine and Lanfear were last seen each entering, they will be minus the help of a 2nd ta'veren influence to "cheat" with.

Even if we consider Thom a 'hero' and assume that the other unknown person's identity will be a 'hero', the Eelfinn should act differently than how the Aelfinn did once before in Mat's presents.


I do wonder what Birgitte will suggest if anything to Mat, Thom while during their stay in Caemlyn in 'Towers of Midnight' book? Let alone what newly created 'fireworks' either Mat, Thom likely will take to Ghenjei.


Now back to your originally raised topic:

Could iron in the agreement actually be cuendillar

If that is the case? Wouldn't that imply that Mat's own ter'angreal would be relatively useless within the Eelfinn's own realm? It is cuendillar, after all too.

I also wonder how a 'music box' ter'angreal might operate within the Eelfinn's realm; would it work like a form of magic as back in the days, before the Breaking? Is that why the both *Finns realms mention it, in each of their treaties?

Elayne does have a 'music box' ter'angreal (KoD, Ch.15). Yet the speculative part is how and who would operate it? If its part of the Tower of Ghenjei storyline.


Did not Moiraine possess and take a small angreal into the Aelfinn's realm, through the doorway within the Stone?

Terez
01-07-2010, 11:27 AM
what actually constituates as cheating in the game of snakes and foxes? there are moves to be done but to win you must cheat, HOW? I cannot seem to find any clues in the books to what the precise rules of the game are except that no iron, no music and no fire rule
This is how it works:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 33 - Courage to Strengthen

Leaning on his elbow, Mat examined the game of Snakes and Foxes laid out on the tent floor. Occasionally a drop of sweat fell from his chin, just missing the board. It was not a board at all, really, just a piece of red cloth with the web of lines drawn in black ink, and arrows showing which lines allowed movement only one way and which both. Ten pale wooden discs each with an inked triangle were the foxes, ten with a wavy line the snakes. Two lamps set to either side gave more than enough light.

"We will win this time, Mat," Olver said excitedly. "I know we will."

"Maybe," Mat said. Their two black-stained discs were nearly back to the circle in the middle of the board, but the next roll of the dice would be for the snakes and foxes. Most of the time you did not make it as far as the outer edge. "Roll the dice." He never touched the dice cup himself, not since the day he had given it to the boy; if they were going to play the game, it might as well be without his luck taking a hand.

With a grin, Olver rattled the leather cup and spilled out the wooden dice his father had made. He groaned as he counted the pips; this time three dice showed faces marked with a triangle, the other three wavy lines. On their turn you had to move the snakes and foxes toward your own pieces by the shortest path, and if one landed on the point you occupied... A snake touched Olver, a fox Mat, and Mat could see if the rest of the pips had been played, two more snakes would have reached him.

Only a child’s game, and one you would not win so long as you followed the rules. Soon Olver would be old enough to realize that, and like other children, stop playing. Only a child’s game, but Mat did not like the fox getting him, and even less the snakes. It brought back bad memories, even if one had nothing to do with the other.

"Well," Olver muttered, "we almost won. Another game, Mat?" Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened the game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. "‘Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.’ Mat, why do we say that? There is no fire, no music and no iron."

"I don’t know." The line tickled something in the back of his head, but he could not bring it up. The old memories from the ter’angreal might as well have been chosen at random – they probably had been – and there were all those gaps in his own, all those fuzzy places. The boy was always asking questions he did not know the answer to, usually beginning with "why."

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota

Noal settled on the other side of the red cloth from Olver and took up Amathera’s part of the game, rolling the dice for the snakes and the foxes. The black discs that now represented Olver and him were nearly to the edge of the web-marked cloth, but it was evident to any eye that they would not make it. To any eye but Olver’s, at least. He groaned loudly when a pale disc inked with a wavy line, a snake, touched his piece, and again when a disc marked with a triangle touched Noal’s.
For the board game, the only way to win is probably to 'miscount' when moving pieces or some such. I doubt that this is relevant, though - the game is a remembrance of old dealings, and the words that open the game seem to be a great deal more significant than the actual game play, which merely represents the fact that the only way to gain the advantage with the 'Finns in their realm is to not follow their rules. No iron, no fire, no music.

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2010, 11:29 AM
Well, the board on which it is played may also turn out to bear some resemblance to the building they're going to have to leave in a hurry.

FelixPax
01-07-2010, 12:27 PM
I doubt that this is relevant, though - the game is a remembrance of old dealings, and the words that open the game seem to be a great deal more significant than the actual game play, which merely represents the fact that the only way to gain the advantage with the 'Finns in their realm is to not follow their rules. No iron, no fire, no music.

The board game does not include a ta'veren factor as a possible influence upon the Aelfinn. Yet we saw the impacted of two ta'veren in the Aelfinn realm, and how it created fear within the Aelfinn. So much so, that they gave Mat more than 3 answers, and literally threw him out of the realm as fast as possible; so they wouldn't be harmed by the presents of two ta'veren.


Even Loial hints about unique impact of being in the presents of two ta'veren:

It is hardly safe to open your mouth with two ta’veren about. Anything at all might come out!

Here's the full paragraph quote by Loial, who should know something about ta'veren as an Ogier scholar and his own experiences:

The Ogier’s final attempt at heartening went further than Loial intended. “I am sure Faile can look after herself, Perrin. She is not like Erith. I can hardly wait for Erith to make me her husband so I can tend her; I think I’d die if she changed her mind.” At the end of that, his mouth remained open, and his huge eyes popped; ears fluttering, he stumbled over his own boots and nearly fell. “I never meant to say that,” he said hoarsely, striding along beside Perrin’s horse once more. His ears still trembled. “I am not sure I want to—I’m too young to get—” Swallowing hard, he gave Perrin an accusing look, and spared one for Rand up ahead, too. “It is hardly safe to open your mouth with two ta’veren about. Anything at all might come out!” Nothing that might not have come off his tongue anyway, as he well knew, though it might have happened one time in a thousand, or a thousand times a thousand, without ta’veren there. Loial knew that also, and the fact of it seemed to frighten him as much as anything Perrin had ever seen. Some considerable time passed before the Ogier’s ears stopped shaking.

Even the Aelfinn and Eelfinn should be subject to some amount of ta'veren influencing. Mat is not a normal person, at all.

Daekyras
01-07-2010, 12:44 PM
I'm not too concerned about the Ta'veren influence. If the world has it's own laws of physics maybe the can be unaffected by ta'veren.

I think the difference now is the kowledge Mat now has. He has put the *finn in the same brackett as the game. He knows he has to cheat. In his two previous visits, he knew very little. Now he knows to be suspicious. Now he knows a deal must be made. He is unlikely to make the same mistakes again...

Spasmodean
01-07-2010, 05:05 PM
I'm not too concerned about the Ta'veren influence. If the world has it's own laws of physics maybe the can be unaffected by ta'veren.

I think the difference now is the kowledge Mat now has. He has put the *finn in the same brackett as the game. He knows he has to cheat. In his two previous visits, he knew very little. Now he knows to be suspicious. Now he knows a deal must be made. He is unlikely to make the same mistakes again...

And Verin gave him something in her note that only she could give. That's either something regarding DF/BA plots in Caemlyn for him to squish or else.....her Brown Ajah ways turned up some info on the Finns that he will find valuable when he goes to the ToG.

My moneys on the latter option.

nameless
01-07-2010, 06:37 PM
It is unknown whether the Finns themselves are subject to ta'veren effects, but the connection between Finnland and the prime world is placed under significant strain by the presence of multiple ta'veren. This upset the Aelfinn in the Shadow Rising because disrupting the connection entirely would make it impossible to send their visitors back home safely as they are obligated to do under the treaty. It's entirely possible that they won't care about the integrity of the connection when the visitor is a treaty-breaker whose safety is none of their concern.

The actual gameplay of Snakes and Foxes is not significant. From what's been described it's roughly equivalent to Candyland or Chutes and Ladders except that your piece is always being chased by "enemy" pieces and they always catch up to you before you reach the end of the board. The important thing to take away from the game is that if you follow the rules the Snakes and the Foxes will always win, and that breaking the rules involves the chant from the beginning of the game: "courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle and iron to bind." We know from Rand's flaming sword that the fire line is exactly as simple as it sounds: something about Finn eye structure responds poorly to the spectrum of firelight and even a small amount is sufficient to blind them. The lines about iron and music are a little more ambiguous. Will any music at all hypnotize them, or does it have to be a specific song? What kind of binding does the iron place on the Finns and how is it achieved?

I would guess that cuendillar does not have any special effects on Finn people. It is derived from iron, but steel is also derived from iron and they don't seem to care about it one way or the other. Presumably only pure, unalloyed iron will do whatever it is that iron does to them.

lurk
01-08-2010, 06:34 AM
This is how it works:




For the board game, the only way to win is probably to 'miscount' when moving pieces or some such. I doubt that this is relevant, though - the game is a remembrance of old dealings, and the words that open the game seem to be a great deal more significant than the actual game play, which merely represents the fact that the only way to gain the advantage with the 'Finns in their realm is to not follow their rules. No iron, no fire, no music.

still the rules are not really clear, you move your piece there are certain directions you cannot go, the dice do something (amount of moves you can make?) how do the finns move? If dice alone say how many moves you can make, and the finns always win no matter what you throw (or else Mat's luck would have helped him win) then it has been one hell of a mathematician who developed the game. to make the lines just so it does not matter what you throw. I am no mathematician but that seems unlikely unless you can use computers to cancel out all winning options.

Maybe cheating is miscounting. I would more guess that cheating would be more like walking in the "wrong" direction, follow forbidden lines or jump lines. Hmm how could you do that in finnland?

Terez
01-08-2010, 06:38 AM
It's actually probably pretty simple mathematically - there are so many snakes and foxes on the board that it's impossible to avoid all of them. I still the the actual game play is irrelevant to the cheating, though.

lurk
01-08-2010, 06:48 AM
if there are many finns on the board another form of cheating would be to remove or immobilise some of their pieces. meaning to dazzle or binding them.

Daekyras
01-08-2010, 10:46 AM
The lines about iron and music are a little more ambiguous. Will any music at all hypnotize them, or does it have to be a specific song? What kind of binding does the iron place on the Finns and how is it achieved?



Perhaps it is THE song....actually, I was joking when I wrote that but that would be a cool outcome...

dominominic
01-08-2010, 02:46 PM
There isn't enough hard info in the books to puzzle this out for sure but I think cuendillar being the iron in question is a bit of a stretch.

Why can't it just be iron?

For some reason I thought Mat's "cheating" would be to threaten to (or actually) remove one of his eyes as in the "give up half the light of the world" thing. I doubt they would expect that. I remember reading somewhere that the 'Finns were looking through his eyes , presumably to gather memories, so they might be cowed by that. Although I could very well be mistaken (I have just been to the pub!).

I'm waiting on publishers to release the books in the UK as eBooks as I do a re-read. So far they've only done up to TDR so I'm a bit behind...

Terez
01-08-2010, 03:18 PM
We've discussed that possibility, but it seems unlikely that it will happen that way. For one, how could Mat have any way of knowing that gouging out his eye would take care of the problem? For another, it's hard to see him purposefully gouging out his eye. Would make more sense for it to be taken from him.

Crispin's Crispian
01-08-2010, 03:22 PM
For some reason I thought Mat's "cheating" would be to threaten to (or actually) remove one of his eyes as in the "give up half the light of the world" thing. I doubt they would expect that. I remember reading somewhere that the 'Finns were looking through his eyes , presumably to gather memories, so they might be cowed by that. Although I could very well be mistaken (I have just been to the pub!).


This. Well, not the pub part (jealous) but otherwise.

Here are my thoughts.

1) The gameboard won't be a direct representation of the world, but it might be close. Upon entry, the trio will have to travel to a central point then travel back again, all while avoiding the *Finn. If Snakes can move in one direction and Foxes in another, it might indicate some way to avoid them.

2) I think lurk hit it on the head. IF there are too many *Finn to avoid, you have to blind, dazzle, then bind them. It's possible that one "species" is blinded but the other has to be dazzled.

3) The *Finn may cheat by using Mat's eye to figure out where he is. At that point, he'll remove it (maybe with a flaming iron guitar pick, or something). That will take courage.

Terez
01-08-2010, 03:26 PM
This.
You think that Mat will gouge out his own eye?

dominominic
01-08-2010, 03:37 PM
, it's hard to see him purposefully gouging out his eye. Would make more sense for it to be taken from him.

In one of Egwene's dreams is he not seen placing it on a scale himself?

That might imply forethought.

Point well taken however, I'm not sure where I got the idea that he can "feel" the 'Finn experiencing through him - perhaps it will come to me in the morning when I sober up some more!

Just had a giant tea and some crisp sandwiches. Crisps are "chips" to any of you Americans! :)

Terez
01-08-2010, 04:53 PM
In one of Egwene's dreams is he not seen placing it on a scale himself?

That might imply forethought.
Yes, it does. But there are a lot of things to take into consideration here:

1. It's hard to see Mat gouging out his own eye. Easier to see him agreeing to a bargain that will cost him his eye.

2. Also, that is how Odin lost his eye. RJ doesn't follow parallels exactly, but we know that Mat is on the way to a place where the inhabitants like to make deals with humans. Could be a red herring, but there it is.

3. Like Gonzo said, there wasn't any surgery involved in the placement of the string that the Eelfinn tied to him. Why would surgery fix the problem?

4. Mat doesn't have any way of knowing that gouging out his left eye would sever the string, if that is indeed the case.

Now, I suppose that there is a possibility that Mat will learn that information from somewhere. It would certainly be convenient, as it would prevent the 'Finns from knowing that he is on the way to Ghenjei. Maybe Nynaeve can find it with a Delving or some such. But Egwene has another dream where Mat is throwing dice, his hat pulled low (like Odin) and blood streaming down his face, while Thom pulls Moiraine out of the fire. That tends to suggest that the loss of the eye has something to do with the Ghenjei action.

FelixPax
01-08-2010, 05:15 PM
The lines about iron and music are a little more ambiguous. Will any music at all hypnotize them, or does it have to be a specific song? What kind of binding does the iron place on the Finns and how is it achieved?

Perhaps it is THE song....actually, I was joking when I wrote that but that would be a cool outcome...

Maybe songs, music retain their functional magic aspects within the *Finns realm still? Unlike the world in the Westlands?


More speculatively, I do wonder if Mat's other unknown need to go to Caemlyn is to picked a set of Metal Basketwork balls? Elayne found them among the pile of items taken from the Kin's Ebou Dar stockpile:

What about a set of metal basketwork balls, one inside the other? Any movement produced a faint musical chime, a different tone every time, and she had the feeling that no matter how hard she looked into it, there would always be a still smaller ball waiting to be discovered.

They should be in Elayne's room, based on her own comments in KoD book. And we know Mat is in Caemlyn now with Elayne, as of tGS book.


Wonder what type of metal this unique set of items is made of: Iron, bronze, steel?


But who would use these musical chimes, set of metal balls?

Here's my take: I don't see Mat using it, but maybe Thom or Valan Luca. ((Noal just doesn't seem to fit into the storyline at all, for the Tower of Ghenjei rescue of Moiraine + Lanfear, which I can go into in another thread if anyone wishes it. Noal's character reminds me of Lan's own sidekick friend of Ryne in 'New Spring' book, who sadly was a darkfriend.))

fdsaf3
01-08-2010, 05:38 PM
Maybe since Mat was sent back to the real world in TFH, he was somehow inextricably linked with the 'Finn's, and thus would be affected by the iron/fire/music combo to a lesser degree than that of the actual 'Finns?

Just a crackpot idea I came up with off the top of my head.

Uno
01-08-2010, 05:58 PM
Maybe since Mat was sent back to the real world in TFH, he was somehow inextricably linked with the 'Finn's, and thus would be affected by the iron/fire/music combo to a lesser degree than that of the actual 'Finns?

Just a crackpot idea I came up with off the top of my head.

Mat, of course, is pretty sure that he is linked to the Eelfinn--and maybe also the Aelfinn--to the extent that he appears to fear they can read his mind, and will therefore be able to anticipate the attempt to free Moiraine. If he's right, that's a complicating factor when it comes to smuggling smithies and orchestras into their realm. (Knife of Dreams, ch. 10).

Terez
01-08-2010, 06:18 PM
Thom can carry his harp on his back as usual.

FelixPax
01-08-2010, 07:12 PM
Thom can carry his harp on his back as usual.

True, except wouldn't it be slightly difficult to play a harp and breath fire at the same time?

Its just far easier for a 3rd person to use the "set of metal basketwork balls, one inside the other", and leave the fire eating, and hurling it to Thom. It's not like Thom lacks doing this, as he did it for Valan Luca's circus. It's one reason Luca was very interested in hiring Thom as a circus show-person.

. “Thom Merrilin. Not a gleeman—but what? Who can say? Not eating fire, but breathing it. Hurling it about like an Aes Sedai.” He flourished his cloak. “Thom Merrilin, the mysterious hero, toppling mountains and raising up kings.” The grin became a rich belly laugh. “Rand al’Thor may be lucky if the next Age remembers his name correctly.”

Yes, Thom is a trained Court Bard, however he does also seem have a special eye of recognition for fire and Illuminator secrets:

“Why did they want to kill you?” Mat asked. “He said something about secrets.”
“The secrets,” Thom said in very nearly his performing voice, “of making fireworks, unless I miss my guess. You are an Illuminator, are you not?” He made a courtly bow with an elaborate swirl of his cloak.


“I would like to know something, Aludra,” Thom said. “How did you light that lantern so quickly in the dark?”
Stopping short of the door, she smiled over her shoulder at him. “You wish me to tell you all of my secrets? I am grateful, but I am not in love. That secret, not even the Guild knows, for it is my discovery alone. I will tell you this much. When I know how to make it work properly, and work only when I want it to, sticks will make my fortune for me.” Throwing her weight against the shafts, she pulled the cart into the rain, and the night swallowed her.


Plus, Thom's has had a very long time to think about how to save Moiraine, since reading her letter to himself. And talk with Aludra, about 'fire' again too.

Aludra did have these memorable lines :)

“This is like a story,” she said. “I am rescued by a gleeman and a young hero”—she frowned at the men sprawled on the stable floor—“from these whose mothers were pigs!”

And Mat wants to get kicked... ;)

Swinging into his saddle, Mat stared at the rain outside the open door, falling harder than ever. “A bloody hero,” he said. “Thom, if I ever look like acting the hero again, you kick me.”

Crispin's Crispian
01-08-2010, 09:00 PM
You think that Mat will gouge out his own eye?

I'm not sure. I like that idea as much as the idea that he'll wager it somehow. The problem is if he wagers it, he will have to lose. I guess that would be interesting, but slightly out of character for Mat.

For some reason I was also under the impression that he suspected his eye might be a tool of the *Finn, but I can't remember why either. With or without alcohol.

Crispin's Crispian
01-08-2010, 09:06 PM
True, except wouldn't it be slightly difficult to play a harp and breath fire at the same time?

Its just far easier for a 3rd person to use the "set of metal basketwork balls, one inside the other", and leave the fire eating, and hurling it to Thom. I don't think it's far easier by any means. I applaud your effort to connect this otherwise obscure item, but it seems like a pretty big stretch.

Thom is a musician, and a good one, so it's far easier to see him as the source of music. Hell, he might even know exactly what song to play. Leave the fire to Jain Farstrider, since he can drwith some of Aludra's nightflowers (or possibly Bayle Domon, since he's friends with Aludra AND knows where the Tower is).

nameless
01-09-2010, 12:12 AM
Thom does not actually have the ability to breathe fire. He is giving a humorous demonstration of the way stories change over time as well as unintentionally alluding to the Merlin the magician, his analog in present-day mythology who does have the ability to throw fire around like an Aes Sedai.

Terez
01-09-2010, 03:43 AM
For some reason I was also under the impression that he suspected his eye might be a tool of the *Finn, but I can't remember why either. With or without alcohol.
Nope. He suspects that they are spying through his eyes (he doesn't even word it like that), but he has no reason to suspect that the loss of his left eye will fix the problem.

Daekyras
01-09-2010, 05:39 AM
Nope. He suspects that they are spying through his eyes (he doesn't even word it like that), but he has no reason to suspect that the loss of his left eye will fix the problem.

I'm with Terez on this one.

Mat gouging out his eye to stop the *finn spying doesn't scan right. He has no real reason to suspect this would work.
Even if Verin's letter said "the *finn are watching through your left eye" he still wouldn't gouge it out. He would find a way.

However, I also agree with crispian. There is no real logic to Mat losing in a game of dice or whatever. It would be completely against the writing for the character. It also wouldn't make sense:
Mat: I bet my left eye.
*finn: We'll release your aes sedai.
Mat: sweet.
The dice role. Mat hits snake eyes and loses,
Mat: Blood and Bloody ashes.
*Finn: We win but we'll just take your eye and you can have the aes sedai anyway...

See, doesn't make sense. At the end of the day, whatever happens, moiraine is coming out. So any deal/event that happens must end up with mat and moiraine together.
Again, the most likely thing to happen is for mat to cheat and win..

Terez
01-09-2010, 06:02 AM
I never said Mat would lose the eye in a game of dice - I just said that the loss of the eye seems to be tied up in the Ghenjei action, rather than being something that Mat did beforehand to prevent the 'Finns from knowing he was coming.

Something that I could see happening: the Aelfinn telling him that if he gouges out one of his eyes, that they will no longer have a string tied to him, but they don't tell him which one. Mat has to depend on a toss of the dice to know which one it is. That's the only reasonable way I can think of for him to gouge out his own eye, having something to do with dice. It's hard to see him getting the information from anywhere else. Also, in defense of the idea, Odin did have to place his eye at the bottom of the pool himself, in the story that I read. It's still hard to see Mat gouging out his own eye, but he does have some rather hard and manly notions about his freedom, as is evidence by his many refusals of Healing. Which goes along nicely with this:

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

Of course, none of that had anything to do with seeking help from Aes Sedai, yet few men felt easy about being linked in any way to Aes Sedai and the Power. Few, that is, except Warders, but each Warder was bonded to an Aes Sedai; Warders could hardly be taken for the general run of men. There was a saying: "A man will cut off his own hand to get rid of a splinter before asking help from Aes Sedai." Women meant it as a comment on men's stubborn foolishness, but Min had heard some men say the loss of a hand might be the better decision.

AbbeyRoad
01-09-2010, 06:06 AM
I think the real question is what music to play. Do they need to put them to sleep with something like 'Miserere' by Allegri or any nocturne by Chopin, play some soulful B.B. King to get them crying, or something like 'Walkabout' or 'Superstition' to get them groovin' to incapacitation? I suppose they could also play Miley Cirus to get them so angry they can't concentrate, although that might backfire.

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2010, 06:14 AM
I suppose they could also play Miley Cirus to get them so angry they can't concentrate, although that might backfire.In that case, they'd better hurry up (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/entertainment_scientists_warn).

Daekyras
01-09-2010, 06:26 AM
I never said Mat would lose the eye in a game of dice - I just said that the loss of the eye seems to be tied up in the Ghenjei action, rather than being something that Mat did beforehand to prevent the 'Finns from knowing he was coming.

I know terez, I was replying to what crispian had said. I agree with pretty much everything you have said in this topic.

Mostly because you haven't mentioned tatoos yet!;)

Terez
01-09-2010, 06:35 AM
I have alluded to them. You missed it. ;)

dominominic
01-09-2010, 06:37 AM
It's hard to see him getting the information from anywhere else.

Very true. But I can see him possibly threatening it(as a desperate last resort perhaps), watching their reaction(which I presume for my purposes would be shock, although they might well not care at all) and then perhaps following through with it.

Speculation only; I still don't think there's enough to go on to be confident of details!

Maybe the 'Finn are really attached to their "eye-link". Maybe not. Maybe some event will demonstrate to Mat a possible importance of the eye-link. Maybe not.

But at least I've got a pot of tea and nothing to do all afternoon but guess!

Terez
01-09-2010, 06:49 AM
An interesting bit that just caught my attention, from the earlier Lord of Chaos quote:

"Maybe," Mat said. Their two black-stained discs were nearly back to the circle in the middle of the board, but the next roll of the dice would be for the snakes and foxes. Most of the time you did not make it as far as the outer edge. "Roll the dice." He never touched the dice cup himself, not since the day he had given it to the boy; if they were going to play the game, it might as well be without his luck taking a hand.
I wonder what would happen if Mat did toss the dice playing the board game. It's impossible to win, but Mat managed to win with Comar's weighted dice in The Dragon Reborn. He felt the weights shifting as they bounced - he felt the Pattern, in a flux around him as he tossed.

It's just interesting, that Mat seems to have thus far refrained from allowing his luck to interfere with their games. Maybe it's as simple as the fact that he knows it's impossible to win, and he'd rather not be reminded that his luck doesn't always work, and he'd especially not like to be reminded of it in the context of snakes and foxes. Maybe it's as simple as not letting the 'Finns know that he has the advantage (from RJ's perspective, not from Mat's).

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2010, 07:07 AM
Or it could be just a matter of fair play. The whole Band knows about Mat's luck, I suspect that Olver does too. By not throwing himself, Mat is giving Olver the idea that the game is fair.

Then there's the point that if even Mat were to lose, Olver might figure out that it is actually not possible to win at all, no matter how well timed your throws are. So not having Mat throw the dice may be intended to keep the game going.

Terez
01-09-2010, 07:17 AM
Olver isn't all that sophisticated, though, or he would be able to see that the game can't be won. We don't see Olver asking Mat to toss the dice, and he obviously wants to win the game. You'd think that, after all this time and never having won the game, he would be begging Mat to toss his dice.

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2010, 07:20 AM
I don't think he wants to cheat, and letting Mat throw would count as cheating.

Terez
01-09-2010, 07:39 AM
Yes, but it's not the same as cheating by 'miscounting' or moving pieces in the wrong direction. It's just luck. Also, Mat makes it clear that the decision not to toss the dice was his. I'd guess it hasn't occurred to Olver to try to utilize Mat's luck.

dominominic
01-09-2010, 11:30 AM
Are we saying that if Mat's luck could be enough to let him "win" the game it might also be enough to let him "win" in the ToG?

I think I'd be a bit disappointed by that...

Crispin's Crispian
01-09-2010, 11:40 AM
I don't see how Mat's rolls could possibly win the Snakes and Foxes game, since every other quote says there is no way to win. Even if he was lucky enough to get the best roll possible every time, he still would lose. It's the nature of the game.

That said, the Finnworld will be something different, and who knows how his luck will play out. I actually like Terez's idea of gambling on which eye is the tricksy one.

And all that said, I'm not dead set on the idea that he gouges out his own eye, I just kind of think it's a cool idea.

dominominic
01-09-2010, 11:46 AM
And all that said, I'm not dead set on the idea that he gouges out his own eye, I just kind of think it's a cool idea.

I second that.

Whatever happens, I really hope the lost eye dreams don't turn out to be metaphorical.

Not that I dislike Mat, I just think it would be a bit cheap.

Daekyras
01-09-2010, 11:59 AM
I second that.
Whatever happens, I really hope the lost eye dreams don't turn out to be metaphorical.
Not that I dislike Mat, I just think it would be a bit cheap.

I kinda hope he manages to keep his eye but...

....it would work with the whole loss that each of the three have suffered.

Rand lost a hand-protecting min.

Mat to lose an eye- rescuing moiraine.

And Perrin, he lost his testicles- the day he married faile.....;)

Terez
01-09-2010, 12:54 PM
Perrin lost his entire family. Parents, siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, all killed by Fain.

FelixPax
01-09-2010, 08:34 PM
I don't see how Mat's rolls could possibly win the Snakes and Foxes game, since every other quote says there is no way to win. Even if he was lucky enough to get the best roll possible every time, he still would lose. It's the nature of the game.

Yes, but have ta'veren entered either Aelfinn or the Eelfinn in prior history, other than Rand or Mat?

“Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings.

Most of Mat's prior memories of realm from dead men, are from losers to Hawkwing or L.T.T. we're read so far, not of prior Ages' 'Pattern' spun out ta'veren.

One limitation in our general knowledge of the Aelfinn & Eelfinn is, what exactly does 'remembrance of old dealings' mean? Let alone what is that 'remembrance' ignorant of?


I don't think it's far easier by any means. I applaud your effort to connect this otherwise obscure item, but it seems like a pretty big stretch.

A big stretch? That amusing to me, Crispin, as in the very same paragraph Aviendha's deer-skin blunt knife which she later gave to Elayne to protect her from the Dark One AND Nynaeve's set of angreal used by Alivia against Cyndane at the Cleansing, were all described together. It's one of the more important paragraphs describing items of the power in the whole story.


This was the first time in the story Nynaeve's Bracelet and Rings (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/bracelet_rings.html) were described:

A flat, worm-eaten box, half-falling apart and whatever had lined it long since gone to dust, held pieces of jewelry—a necklace and bracelets set with colored stones, a slim gem-studded belt, several finger rings—and there were spaces for more. Every single one was a ter’angreal, and they all matched, meant to be worn together, though Elayne could not imagine why any woman would want to carry so many about her at one time.

This was the 1st time deerhorn dagger (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/dull_dagger.html) described in any place:

Aviendha found a dagger with gold wire wrapped around a hilt of rough deerhorn; the blade was dull, and by all evidence, always had been. She kept turning that over and over in her fingers—her hands actually began to tremble—until Elayne took it away from her and put it with the others on the cistern’s lid. Even then Aviendha stood for a time, looking at it and licking her lips as though they had gone dry.

Laugh, even that red rod (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/red_rod.html) item Elayne later uses in route to Caemlyn to broadcast her dreams & fantasies (tPoD, Ch.20 "Into Andor") was described in this same paragraph:

A rod, as thick as her wrist, bright red and smooth and rounded, firm rather than hard for all that it seemed to be stone; it did not warm slightly in her hand, it almost felt hot! Not real heat any more than the warmth was real, but still!

It's not a stretch at all, to make a connection that a set of metal basketwork balls, which "any movement produced a faint musical chime, a different tone every time" would be handy in the Tower of Ghenjei.

If the Eelfinn can move as fast as the Aelfinn did to Mat previously (tSR book,Ch.15), that set of metal basketwork balls just might "save" their lives.... If just knocking the person possessing that item around, creates music to "daze" the Eelfinn. It's a defensive item highly similar to Nynaeve's own set of angreal bracelets and rings.


Whereas, a playing a harp and/or some other instrument would require far more active forethinking and behavior. That set of metal basketwork balls can be used either 'passively' and/or 'actively' by a person.

Wantanswers
01-19-2010, 04:53 PM
Is it sure Matt is is going to loose his eye in the ToG. In a wolfdream (I believe it was in tDR) Perrin saw Matt dicing with Ba'alzamon. I have not seen this has been fullfilled.

Terez
01-19-2010, 08:54 PM
Is it sure Matt is is going to loose his eye in the ToG. In a wolfdream (I believe it was in tDR) Perrin saw Matt dicing with Ba'alzamon. I have not seen this has been fullfilled.
This might have been a reference to Mat's gamble with Rahvin, indirectly. Perrin had the dream right before Mat and Thom got to Caemlyn:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 47 - To Race the Shadow

"Hold this for me, Master Gill," Mat said, and tossed him the wash-leather purse.

"What's this, lad? Coin?"

"Stakes. Gaebril doesn't know it, but he and I have a wager." The cat jumped down as Mat picked up the wooden dice cup and spun the dice out on the table. Five sixes. "And I always win."
I know Rahvin isn't Ishamael, but at that time, the boys still believed that Ba'alzamon was the Dark One, and Ishamael might well have had something to do with the girls being led to Tear in the first place.

Also, Perrin had that dream right after Mat escaped Tar Valon. Perrin also eavesdropped on a meeting that Ishamael held in the Dream, with Darkfriend leaders (presumably some who were at the Darkfriend Social in the prologue of The Great Hunt):

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 36 - Daughter of the Night

The dark-haired man who faced them was garbed in black, with silver lace at his throat and wrists. Now and again he put a hand to his chest, as if it hurt him. There was light everywhere down there, coming from nowhere, but this man below Perrin seemed cloaked in shadow. Darkness rolled around him, caressed him.

"Silence!" The black-clothed man did not speak loudly, but he had no need to. For the space of that word, he had raised his head; his eyes and mouth were holes boring into a raging forge-fire, all flame and fiery glow.

Perrin knew him, then. Ba'alzamon. He was staring down at Ba'alzamon himself. Fear struck through him like hammered spikes. He would have run, but he could not feel his feet.

Hopper shifted. He felt the thick fur under his hand and gripped it hard. Something real. Something more real, he hoped, than what he saw. But he knew that both were real.

The men huddling together cowered.

"You have been given tasks," Ba'alzamon said. "Some of these tasks you have carried out. At others, you have failed." Now and again his eyes and mouth vanished in flame again, and the mirrors flashed with reflected fire. "Those who have been marked for death must die. Those who have been marked for taking must bow to me. To fail the Great Lord of the Dark cannot be forgiven." Fire shone through his eyes, and the darkness around him roiled and spun. "You." His finger pointed out the man who had spoken of Tar Valon, a fellow dressed like a merchant, in plainly cut clothes of the finest cloth. The others shied away from him as if he had blackbile fever, leaving him to cower alone. "You allowed the boy to escape Tar Valon."

The man screamed, and began to quiver like a file struck against an anvil. He seemed to become less solid, and his scream thinned with him.

"You all dream," Ba'alzamon said, "but what happens in this dream is real." The shrieking man was only a bundle of mist shaped like a man, his scream far distant, and then even the mist was gone. "I fear he will never wake." He laughed, and his mouth roared flame. "The rest of you will not fail me again. Begone! Wake, and obey!" The other men vanished.
Mat encountered assassins and even a Gray Man as he was leaving the city, so you could say he was dicing with Ba'alzamon then.

And finally, it might have something to do with his luck, which he picked up in the escape from Tar Valon. An interesting quote from RJ:

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9912)

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.
As for Mat losing his eye at Ghenjei, it's almost guaranteed. Too many prophecies point to it....four of them in fact, from three different sources: not one but two Egwene dreams, a Min viewing, and the Aelfinn's 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'. Mat losing his eye is probably the most prophesied event next to Rand's required sacrifice at Shayol Ghul.

Wantanswers
01-19-2010, 10:37 PM
Thank you. It was just the answer of the Aelfinn what made me think it had to happen during Tarmon Gaidon

Terez
01-20-2010, 02:22 AM
Well, Min had a viewing that Rand would almost surely fail without Moiraine, so there you go.

lurk
01-20-2010, 08:45 AM
Olver isn't all that sophisticated, though, or he would be able to see that the game can't be won. We don't see Olver asking Mat to toss the dice, and he obviously wants to win the game. You'd think that, after all this time and never having won the game, he would be begging Mat to toss his dice.

If you mean that he is still a little kid not wise yet to the fact that there are games that cannot be won. Then I agree.

But Olver has probably had the same base education as a lot of kids in the two rivers, and they know (at a certain moment) that the game cannot be won and stop playing it. Unsophisticated as in "rural, illiterate" or something like that has nothing to do with it. Naieve is a much better term

lurk
01-20-2010, 08:53 AM
there was some theory way back about Mat having drunk from the cup in the dreams (EotW) which we know Rand and Perrin refused. Thre was no POV from Mat 's dream. But he reacted strangely (need to find the exact quote somewhere). Together with the part in TGH when they experience a lot of futures at the portal stone. Mat clearly askes Rand to trust him that he would never betray him.

The theory was something like the DO or Baalzamon having a tie to Mat in someway. And that losing his eye was needed to get rid of that tie. What ever happened to that theory?

Spasmodean
01-20-2010, 07:43 PM
Are we saying that if Mat's luck could be enough to let him "win" the game it might also be enough to let him "win" in the ToG?

I think I'd be a bit disappointed by that...

I don't see why that would be disappointing. Mat's Luck is touted as one of his biggest "virtues" if you will in the storyline.
Yes he has skills in many areas thanks to the Finn memories, but his Luck or Ta'veren chance (probably one and the same to the naked eye of a Randlander) has allowed him to survive this far and probably will again a few times before the series ends.

dominominic
01-21-2010, 06:30 AM
No doubt luck will come into it but I think it's a bit late in a long series to still have characters regularly succeeding by accident.

Terez
01-21-2010, 06:43 AM
You say that as if Mat hasn't been doing that all along. :confused: I mean, come on....his luck has been the dominating trait of his character since book 3.

dominominic
01-21-2010, 09:07 AM
His growing sense of responsibility is what I would take as his dominating character trait although I will admit I'm only at Book 4 in terms of a re-read.

Belazamon
01-21-2010, 09:38 PM
Apropos of absolutely nothing, my brain persists in reading the title of this thread as "Thoughts on Tron."

I certainly think that Lightcycles would be of immeasurable value in the battle against the Shadow. Appropriate, too.