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Daekyras
01-07-2010, 06:22 AM
Ok, I know this has been discussed to death. I know it was/is one of the most viewed responded to theories on the main site.

Has the issue of Olver/Gaidal Cain ever been confirmed or denied by RJ or BS or Harriet or anybody?

I was just flicking through tGS this morning and came to a bit involving the kid:

Mat straightened up. "What?" he asked.
"Someone's come to the camp," Olver said, excitement painting his features. And those features were a sight. Ears that were too big for his head, nose that was squashed down, mouth that was too wide. On a child his age, the ugliness was endearing. He'd have no such luck when he grew older. Maybe the men in camp were right to be teaching him weapons. With a face like that, he'd better know how to defend himself.

Ok, so we have an ugly kid who will grow up to be an ugly man. He is what? 9-10 years old. He is being trained by the members of the Band in weapons. Mat, the biggest badass of them all, is his mentor.

Basically this all adds up to an ugly grown up that will be extremely gifted in the art of war. Add in the fact that he and Birgitte had a connection and it points in the direction of one man: Gaidal Cain.

If this has been debunked already, cool, but it does lead to the question: Who is Olver or more importantly, who will Olver become?

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2010, 06:25 AM
Ok, I know this has been discussed to death. I know it was/is one of the most viewed responded to theories on the main site.

Has the issue of Olver/Gaidal Cain ever been confirmed or denied by RJ or BS or Harriet or anybody?Well, it might not be entirely clear, so the issue may not be wholly closed. Here's what RJ had to say about it:
Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.Does that help?

Daekyras
01-07-2010, 06:31 AM
Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Does that help?

Just a little! Thanks Gonzo. I was thinking I'd read that somewhere.

Anyway, who is Olver?

Oatman
01-07-2010, 08:01 AM
Olver is the ugly kid who set Mat on the path of becoming more responsible and who will likely play some role in the success at the ToG. Why does he need to be anything else?

Terez
01-07-2010, 08:37 AM
He has already done a couple of really important things:

1. He kept Mat behind in Ebou Dar when the Seanchan invaded. If that hadn't happened, Mat wouldn't have met Tuon.

2. He told them how to find the 'Finns without the doorways (Ghenjei), and he told them how to enter Ghenjei. He has also served to keep the game in the forefront of the minds of Mat, Thom, and Noal. They still haven't discussed cheating. They probably won't - I imagine that Thom and Mat might have already realized that they will have to cheat, but they are scared to talk about it because they fear the 'Finns are spying through Mat.

lurk
01-07-2010, 08:55 AM
well I do not have definite answers but the topics most related to Olver in the story are:

he is ugly
he gets away with a lot of stuff, especially around women
his family was murdered by shaido
aviendha feels some shame when she learns of this, despite him being a treekiller
he is fond of the game of snakes and foxes
he knows the rules fo snakes and foxes very well (and probably what would break the rules)


If we look at what appears the most often it is his uglyness and the game of snakes and foxes. So I would guess that his role will be related to the tower of ghenjei and the rescue of Moiraine. Someone who knows the rules and a notorious rulebreaker (Mat) together should result in something. Maybe he will be necessary to open the door again when Mat, Thom and Noal save Moiraine and become trapped in finnland, and so saving them all.

nategator
01-10-2010, 03:59 AM
Heck, he could be there to "bind" the door open with iron when he notices it closing. Moraine wouldn't have seen him since her vision would only show the three who actually entered. Solves the 1) Oliver really wants to go issue, 2) the figuring out how they use iron to cheat but still get in (unlike the matches = fire, thom = song), and 3) Oliver does something even though he never showed up in Moraine's vision.

dominominic
01-10-2010, 04:53 AM
He has already done a couple of really important things:

1. He kept Mat behind in Ebou Dar when the Seanchan invaded. If that hadn't happened, Mat wouldn't have met Tuon.

2. He told them how to find the 'Finns without the doorways (Ghenjei), and he told them how to enter Ghenjei. He has also served to keep the game in the forefront of the minds of Mat, Thom, and Noal. They still haven't discussed cheating. They probably won't - I imagine that Thom and Mat might have already realized that they will have to cheat, but they are scared to talk about it because they fear the 'Finns are spying through Mat.

Well said.

But do you think these are his "reason(s) for being there", or do you think he still has a part to play?

Terez
01-10-2010, 07:59 AM
I don't believe that he will play a part at Ghenjei itself because Moiraine was so adamant that only the three come to rescue her, and that any other combination would mean failure (which means death or imprisonment for all of them). They won't risk it, and they made that clear in The Gathering Storm:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 27 - The Tipsy Gelding

"And," Thom added, "I'll see if I can dig up hints for the incursion."

The Tower of Ghenjei. Mat shrugged. "We're more likely to find what we need in Four Kings or Caemlyn."

"Yes, I know. But Olver made me promise to check. If you hadn't set Noal to keeping the boy distracted, I'd expect to open our saddlebags and find him in there. He really wanted to come."

"A night dancing and gambling is no place for a boy," Mat muttered. "I just wish I could trust the men back at camp not to corrupt him worse than a tavern would."

"Well, he stayed back quietly enough once Noal got out the board." Olver was convinced that if he played Snakes and Foxes enough, he'd pick out some secret strategy for defeating the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. "The lad still thinks he's coming with us into the tower," Thom said more quietly. "He knows he can't be one of the three, but he plans to wait outside for us. Maybe burst in to save us if we don't come back soon enough. I don't want to be there when he discovers the truth."

"I don't intend to be there myself," Mat said.

lurk
01-10-2010, 03:10 PM
Terez, he still could sneak after them (he IS good at that :))and be outside. He won't come in but he might be there to keep the door open or open the door foir5 the three and Moiraine to leave.

Moiraine says three must come, could mean three must enter. Olver not entering will then not violate the number of three.

Terez
01-11-2010, 01:02 AM
Mat and Thom are well aware of Olver's persistence, and I'm quite sure they will take preventative measures to make sure he can't follow them, and regardless of whether or not his presence would be allowed if he merely followed, Thom will NOT RISK IT.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 03:21 AM
Mat and Thom are well aware of Olver's persistence, and I'm quite sure they will take preventative measures to make sure he can't follow them, and regardless of whether or not his presence would be allowed if he merely followed, Thom will NOT RISK IT.Mat could make Olver promise. Olver wouldn't like that, but he would keep a promise to Mat.

lurk
01-12-2010, 11:05 AM
mat shows that promises can be flexible, he hates it when he has to make an exact promise, because he knows he will hold to it.

his promise to rand to keep elayne save was stretched a lot in ebou dar, he kept it in the end but not the way he thoughthe would keep it.

Same thing is possible with a promise from Olver to Mat. If Olver really thinks he needs to be there he can stretch his promise to Mat i believe.

And Olver is really really nosy.:D

yaje
01-17-2010, 03:54 PM
thom = song

i was under the impression that the song they need would or could be the tinker song. im a lil new to these forums so this could be already a existing theory laying this out.

there are just too many entries to read through them all.

what do you guys think ab this?

Weird Harold
01-17-2010, 05:30 PM
i was under the impression that the song they need would or could be the tinker song. ...

"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind."

When dealing with the *'finn, any music will suffice (except possibly Rap/Hip Hop. :D) much like Daffy Duck's capture of the Tazmanian Devil.

Terez
01-17-2010, 07:11 PM
The Tinker's 'song' is a remembrance of the seed-singing, like Rand saw in book 4.

wolframbohr2
01-22-2010, 02:47 AM
Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though

Olver is is ugly.

Maybe he is where the myth of Hephaestus/Vulcan came from. He can travel to a volcano, Dragon Mount is the only one I know of, and make something of iron for Mat to take to TG. How he learns to be a blacksmith we would need to ask Mr. Owl.