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View Full Version : Did the foresaken meet at the Black Tower?


nategator
01-10-2010, 03:35 AM
Here's a kinda crazy theory but I think it might make sense:

While doing a reread of some of the Foresaken stuff to try to get hints on what Demandred and the DO balefire plan might be, I had a thought from the beginning of TGS. Check out the description of where the Foresaken meet, and tell me that it doesn't sound like the Black Tower, especially since she had no idea where she was:

It was distractingly hot on the other side of the gateway. She immediately wove Air and Water, cooling the air around her. She was in a black stone building, with ruddy light coming in the windows. They had no glass in them. That reddish tint implied a sunset, but it was barely midafternoon back in Arad Doman. Surely she hadn't traveled that far, had she?
The room was furnished only with hard chairs of the deepest black wood. Moridin certainly was lacking in imagination lately.
Everything of black and red, and all focused on killing those fool boys from the village of Rand al'Thor. Was she the only one who saw that al'Thor himself was the real threat? Why not just kill him and be done with it?
The most obvious answer to that question—that none of them so far had proven strong enough to defeat him—was one she didnot enjoy contemplating.
She walked to the window and found the reason for the rust-colored light. Outside, the claylike ground was stained red from the iron in the soil. She was on the second level of a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky. Very little vegetation sprouted outside, and that which did was spotted with black. So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here. Moridin seemed to have located a fortress, of all things.
A collection of shoddy huts stood in the shadow of the fortress, and a few patches of blightstrain crops marked fields in the distance. They were probably trying a new strain, coaxing it to grow in the area. Perhaps several different crops; that would explain the patches. Guards prowled the area, wearing black uniforms despite the heat. Soldiers were necessary to fight off
attacks from the various Shadowspawn that inhabited the lands this deep within the Blight. Those creatures obeyed no master save for the Great Lord himself. What was Moridin doing all the way out here?

Admittedly, it's thin. But think about it for a second. Everything is black and red, just like the description of inside the black tower when the Red Aes Sedai visited. It's a "black tower" and not high, just deep. Also, she cannot see the crops, instead she just assumes they are blightstrain. But how can they be growing blightstrain when their magical genetic engineer got smoked by balefire? Finally there are soldiers "wearing black uniforms despite the heat." And the huts, that's the barracks or where Logain and his crew crashed. Sure, it could be darkfriends...or Asha'man with weaves of air and water to keep themselves cool. Finally, the question is tauning us "What was Moridin doing all the way out here?" Um, running the black tower maybe?

Ok, counter-evidence please.

Weird Harold
01-10-2010, 07:13 AM
Ok, counter-evidence please.

Thecounter evidence is in your quote:

"So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here."


Greandal recognised the terrain and "ruddy light" as a place she'd visited before, although not for some time.

Neither the light nor the climate fit central Andor.

Black and Red are Moridin's colors; he dresses Cyndane and Moghedien in red and black, for example.

Kurtz
01-10-2010, 07:18 AM
Shortest thread ever

Davian93
01-10-2010, 01:31 PM
Maybe not The Black Tower but it was A black tower...

nategator
01-10-2010, 03:48 PM
Thecounter evidence is in your quote:

"So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here."


Greandal recognised the terrain and "ruddy light" as a place she'd visited before, although not for some time.

Neither the light nor the climate fit central Andor.

Black and Red are Moridin's colors; he dresses Cyndane and Moghedien in red and black, for example.

1. You should have read my post most closely. It supposes that Greandal made a mistake. Also the "ruddy light" was NOT because of the sky, etc. It was because the ground itself was pretty much a red clay due to a high iron content. The light is due to reflecting off the ground. That's clear. I find it hard to believe that only the blight would have this, but maybe. We haven't seen the grounds immediately surrounding the BT recently, so we can't confirm whether the ground is red or not, but we do know there has been a lot of channeling in the area and Taim likes red and black, so he might have set that up deliberately. In other words, the red light is a red herring.

2. Climate - this is easy. Reread LOC chapters 3 and 42. All they talk about is how hot the grounds are at the BT.

Remember, this post supposes that Greandal, the know it all who got balefired cause she couldn't resist putting compulsion on someone, didn't know where she was and made some wrong assumptions. The foresaken are not infallible. In fact, their defining characteristic other than selfishness is that they pretty much f*** up everything.

nategator
01-10-2010, 03:52 PM
Maybe not The Black Tower but it was A black tower...

Why have two black towers? Why not call it the black fortress or something. Why would Ishy not make a red and black tower to match the interior? All I'm saying is that having two black towers is poor writing thematically.

nategator
01-10-2010, 03:52 PM
Shortest thread ever

It's been up for less than a day.

Davian93
01-10-2010, 03:57 PM
Why have two black towers? Why not call it the black fortress or something. Why would Ishy not make a red and black tower to match the interior? All I'm saying is that having two black towers is poor writing thematically.

One, my comment was a joke.

Two, the passage doesn't really say it was a black tower that they met at but rather a black fortress as you just say.

Your theory is based on the unsubstantiated guess that Graendal is flat out wrong in her determination that it must be in the far northeastern corner of the blight. Based on her "recognition" of the location as well as the position of the sun (something she clearly knew something about or she wouldn't think to herself about the distance traversed), there is no ground whatsoever for this theory to stand on.

Weird Harold
01-10-2010, 04:20 PM
Also the "ruddy light" was NOT because of the sky, etc. It was because the ground itself was pretty much a red clay due to a high iron content.

We've seen numerous direct views of the Balck Tower, which started out as a simple farm, and not a single one mentions anything about red clay. Farms generally do not do well if the ground is iron-rich red clay, because nothing grows in iron-rich red clay.

2. Climate - this is easy. Reread LOC chapters 3 and 42. All they talk about is how hot the grounds are at the BT.

LoC is set in the "endless summer" that required the Bowl of the Winds to break. Greandal's visit to Moridin's fortress takes place in tGS, long after the endless summer, when spring hs broken the brutal winter that followed.

As for Mazrim Taim liking red and black, he is the minion, not the Nae'blis; hel ike red and black because Moridin likes red and black, not vice versa.

Belazamon
01-10-2010, 05:32 PM
You appear to have also missed the fact that the Black Tower is actually a walled town nowadays. Not a fortress surrounded by "a collection of shoddy huts."

Yuri33
01-10-2010, 06:35 PM
This is the most recent description we have of the Black Tower:

KoD, Epilogue:
Ajah eyes-and-ears in Caemlyn had sent copious reports on the Black Tower, and some had even found employment inside it, so they had no difficulty locating the well-worn dirt track that led down from the city to a grandiose double-arched black gate, near fifty feet tall and ten spans wide, topped by crenelations over a down-pointing central spike of stone and flanked by a pair of thick, crenelated black towers that stood at least fifteen spans high. There were no actual gates to close up the opening, and the black stone wall that stretched out of sight east and west, marked at intervals by the foundations of bastions and towers, was nowhere higher than four or five paces that she could see. Weeds grew along the uneven top, and grasses ruffled by the breeze. Those unfinished walls, looking as if they might never be finished, made the gate seem ludicrous.
...
The palace the Murandian had spoken of was just that, two stories of white marble topped with pointed domes and spires in the style of Saldaea, separated from a large space of bare, hard-packed ground by the white platform. It was not large among palaces, but most nobles lived in buildings far smaller and less grand. Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded. Those doors swung open before the Tairen reached them, but there were no servants in evidence. The man must have channeled. Pevara felt that chill again. Javindhra muttered under her breath. With a sound of prayer, this time.
The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for tapestries showing battles and red-and-black floor tiles, except that there were no servants in evidence. He had servants, though unfortunately no Red Ajah eyes-and-ears among them, but did he expect them to remain out of sight when not needed or had he ordered them from the halls? Perhaps to avoid having anyone see six Aes Sedai arrive. That line of reasoning ran toward thoughts she would rather not consider. She had acknowledged the dangers before leaving the White Tower. There was no point dwelling on them.

None of this sounds remotely near the description of Moridin's fortress.

nategator
01-10-2010, 10:43 PM
It's a four-mile complex with no recent POV surveying the area since LOC. The Red Ajah were traveled in. The captive Ajah complained about how there were parts of the grounds they never saw.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 04:10 AM
There might be parts of the BT complex that do match what Graendal saw. But then, it might have been somewhere in the Aiel Waste, or in Seanchan lands, or ...
All we know is that it does not resemble any known part of the BT. Thus, there is no actual support for the idea the meeting took place in the BT. That does not rule it out, but, using Ockam's Razor, it does remove the idea as a serious contender against the far more sensible idea that Graendal was simply correct.

One Armed Gimp
01-11-2010, 08:29 AM
You appear to have also missed the fact that the Black Tower is actually a walled town nowadays. Not a fortress surrounded by "a collection of shoddy huts."

Nategator seems to have missed a lot of things regarding this post. The most humorous being not getting Dav's joke. At that point I had to question whether the poster has actually read the books or just skimmed them.

Terez
01-11-2010, 09:21 AM
A lot of people do skim the wind bit.

One Armed Gimp
01-11-2010, 09:28 AM
A lot of people do skim the wind bit.

But they should at least have read it a time or two and gotten the joke.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 09:56 AM
A lot of people do skim the wind bit.But Nategator is not a lot of people, even though he is one.

Belazamon
01-11-2010, 05:34 PM
But Nategator is not a lot of people, even though he is one.
For he is not many men, and never has been.

As opposed to 'Seal, naturally.

yaje
01-21-2010, 01:11 PM
we have never seen the black tower wall in a completed stage. i think that they have been going through the paces in andor and constructing a fortess in the blight with the stones from andor.

Terez
01-21-2010, 02:38 PM
I think it's the other way around - the Black Tower is made of Shayol Ghul rock. ;)

yaje
01-22-2010, 01:28 PM
I think it's the other way around - the Black Tower is made of Shayol Ghul rock. ;)

never thought of it like that........blood on the rocks? could take place there...in towers of midnight....

Terez
01-22-2010, 03:00 PM
Possibly. Egwene has a dream of Logain stepping over a paper puppet of Rand's body to mount a black stone, which strongly resembles Taim's stone platform that he uses to address the Asha'man. That seems to suggest that Rand will die or fake his death some time during the Black Tower battle, where Logain will presumably take over after Rand dies.

yaje
01-22-2010, 10:31 PM
where is this dream?

Terez
01-22-2010, 11:35 PM
For future reference, all of the dreams and prophecies and such are listed on the encyclopaedia (link in my sig), with book-chapter references:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand’s body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 42 - The Black Tower

He had come expecting to gather them round him, and then seeing their numbers, maybe to speak from the back of the rickety cart that now seemed to have vanished. Taim had a platform for making addresses, though, a plain block of black stone dressed and polished so finely that it shone like a mirror in the sunlight, with two steps cut into the back. It stood in an open area beyond the farmhouse, the ground beaten bare and flat and hard around it. The women and children gathered to one side to watch and listen.
I bet it is in Taim's palace now.