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Tercel
01-10-2010, 08:56 PM
I am rereading the series at the moment (up to LoC) and I have a series of questions surrounding the Horn, the Heroes, and Sanderson's "Small Detail".

(1) The Nature of the Horn
In book 2, the Horn was a cool item, and we could speculate that it might be a Ter'angreal. However, in later books we discover that the Heroes of the Horn reside in T'A'R throughout the Ages, waiting for the Horn to call them out. We were also told in book 2 that the Wheel itself selects new additions to the Heroes.

I am left to wonder which of two scenarios is true:
(a) the Heroes reside in T'A'R according to the Wheel, and at some point a particularly enterprising Aes Sedai discovered this and created a Ter'angreal called the Horn of Valere which creates a temporary merge between T'A'R and the real world, thus drawing the Heroes into the world. In this case the Horn could be destroyed using the One Power or the True Power. This leaves me with a question: What is the point of the Wheel putting the Heroes into T'A'R (since the Horn is incidental)? Something that counts against this scenario, I think, is Hawkwing's comment in tGH that the Heroes have to follow the Dragon if he is present when the Horn is blown, regardless of who blew it. This seems an interesting safeguard to prevent the Horn being used for the Shadow in the Last Battle, something more likely set by the Creator/Wheel than a limitation an Aes Sedai would place on a Ter'angreal.

(b) The Horn is a special unique object that existed from the moment of creation, and is an essential part of the universe, just like T'A'R is or the Wheel itself is. Presumably in this case, the Horn is supernaturally protected from destruction caused by either the One Power and the True Power?!?

(2) Who knows where the Horn is now?
Siuan says in tDR that the horn will be put somewhere where only she and Verin know where it is. We know now, of course, that Verin is both Black Ajah and anti-Black. How much, if anything, did she tell the Black about the Horn? Does the Shadow now have the Horn? Or does Mat have instructions from Verin as to the location of the Horn? Or does Siuan and only Siuan know where the Horn is?

(3) The 'small detail'
Having just read books four and five on the look-out for Sanderson's 'small detail', I think the only things that qualify in either book are the issues surrounding Birgitte, and the Heroes in T'A'R. I see three possible 'small detail' issues/questions:

a) Is Birgitte still a Hero now that Moghedien has pulled her from T'A'R? Or does she need to re-win her status as Hero? In the books when she is pulled out of T'A'R it is explicitly stated by Elayne/Nynaeve that this is an important issue that needs discussion. (Yet I have never discussed it or seen it discussed on forums... unsurprising in a way, as there is no data)

b) The existence of the Heroes in T'A'R is revealed.
I and various others have come to hold the belief that the Sealing of the DO's prison must take place in T'A'R (because it seems that the Pattern itself is the DO's prison and it is the strength of the Pattern/Reality that seals the prison, and what better place to Create Reality than T'A'R?). Is the existence of the Heroes of the Horn in T'A'R pure coincidence? It does seem quite non-intuitive that the Heroes should reside in T'A'R... why can't they reside with all the other dead (Oscangar's POV in the LoC prologue includes conscious memories from the afterlife (he found it very unpleasant, which I personally choose to assume was because everyone else there made sure he was punished for his evil deeds) so we have a fair indication that a conscious afterlife exists for everyone else) and be called by the Horn from the grave when needed? It seems pretty weird that they should be in T'A'R... unless it's because they need to be there for a very important reason!

c) How did Moghedien know Birgitte was a Hero of the Horn when they met in the Age of Legends? This seemed a bit bizarre... Moghedien shouldn't have known who Birgitte was, but apparently did. (Perhaps Moghedien has the Fortelling sometimes?)

nategator
01-11-2010, 05:25 AM
Interesting discussion, but with regards to point 3 I'm very doubtful this is the small detail that we missed and is going to blow up huge plotwise. I just don't see it, but maybe I lack imagination. I would hate, hate, hate the heroes of the horn being the solution imprisoning the Dark One. It just seems lame.

1. About the Horn -- my thoughts were it was never standard ter'angrel, it was just a "magic" (in the sense that there is no necessary explanation) horn that summoned heroes tied to it. Those heroes lived in the dream world which was a kind of Valhallah or special afterlife for those deemed worthy. As far as when it existed - why couldn't it have always existed, like the Dragon himself? In other words, when you start getting into wondering how the beginning of a continuous loop started, you run into a chicken-and-egg problem. It doesn't matter, there is a horn and it does really cool stuff. That's all you need to know. You also don't need to know about the properties of the Horn or why the heroes are where they are, it just would be magibabble anyways. Focus on the important things, like pillow friends and Elayne being preggers

2. I'm betting it's in the note Mat has, the reason why she wanted him to wait 10 days had been well argued (I won't get into it here) and it wraps up that plot point nicely without having to spend more time on Suian than necessary, which is a good thing. No indication the Shadow has it.

Daekyras
01-11-2010, 07:12 AM
I think, is Hawkwing's comment in tGH that the Heroes have to follow the Dragon if he is present when the Horn is blown, regardless of who blew it.

Does hawkwing not say they will follow the dragon banner? Not the dragon.

Terez
01-11-2010, 07:43 AM
He says they will follow the banner, and the Dragon. RJ was asked what would happen if the Horn was blown while the Dragon was on the other side of the battlefield, and he said it would cause a rift in the Pattern.

wolframbohr2
01-11-2010, 10:23 AM
TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.


I wounder which Age it was created in and why?

Is it destroyed and remade with each turning of the Wheel?

If it is not destroyed and remade, what made it to be made in the first place and why was that situation not encountered again in later turnings?

If it were made for the ultimate/final goal of being used in this age (the Rand Age) did the person/persons who made it know how long/how many turnings the Wheel would take to get it there?

Is the horn made out of petrified grilled cheese? ok, ok, I have been awake for 2 days and must stay awake for a surprise party for me that I was not suppose to know about.

Bonzi77
01-11-2010, 10:59 AM
A couple of thoughts:

1) We know a couple of things about Verin. She's a Brown at heart and she's flexible in morality, following orders and truthfulness to further what she sees as a greater good. So given the mystery about the Horn, she'd probably have wanted to study it and so might have moved it from where Siuan put it. If that's the case, it's probably part of her note to Mat.

2) I don't think the Horn is a Ter'angreal. It existed before the Age of Legends and therefor before the One Power was discovered. So it's either something that existed at creation (unlikely, in my mind), or perhaps a product of another type of magic that is known in another age.

Terez
01-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Linda at 13th Depository thinks that Laras has the Horn, and she hinted to Egwene that she should pay Laras a visit.

There was no reason for Verin to put info in the note about the Horn - she could have just told him that outright. She reason for the letter was almost certainly her Oath against betraying the Shadow.

Also, the Horn was 'from an earlier Age' than the Age of Legends, so it could easily have been from an Age before the Power was lost to be rediscovered again.

Crispin's Crispian
01-11-2010, 12:37 PM
Also, the Horn was 'from an earlier Age' than the Age of Legends, so it could easily have been from an Age before the Power was lost to be rediscovered again.
Indeed, there's nothing that would necessitate the Horn being destroyed and remade every turning, etc. Small things change every cycle--remember it's a spiral not a true wheel--so the Horn only needed to be made one time.

The chicken-and-egg question of whether the Horn created the Hero function, or whether the Horn was given the ability to summon Heroes probably won't be answered. It begs the question of whether the Heroes have always resided in Tel'aran'rhiod or whether that was a relatively later addition to the Wheel's corrective mechanisms. Maybe the Dragon is the original Hero, and more were added over time.

Ieyasu
01-11-2010, 02:56 PM
Also, the Horn was 'from an earlier Age' than the Age of Legends, so it could easily have been from an Age before the Power was lost to be rediscovered again.

One of the things about the Horn that has always caused me to wonder about it is that it wasnt well known in the AOL, considered just a myth, its 'from an earlier Age' but the engraving on it is in the Old Tongue... why?

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 04:02 PM
One of the things about the Horn that has always caused me to wonder about it is that it wasnt well known in the AOL, considered just a myth, its 'from an earlier Age' but the engraving on it is in the Old Tongue... why?Good question, to which the answer probably is: "Ehr ... don't ask so many questions."

I think that inventing a whole new (all right, old) language only for that would have been a bit over the top. Not to mention the fact that it would also have required lots of people who just accidentally happened to know how to read that language which had been dead and gone (apart from this one inscription) even before the Second Age began.

Then again, perhaps the Old Tongue is really Finnlanguage, and it gets spread across the "normal world" during various Ages, Turn after Turn after Turn.

Crispin's Crispian
01-11-2010, 06:26 PM
Good question, to which the answer probably is: "Ehr ... don't ask so many questions."

I think that inventing a whole new (all right, old) language only for that would have been a bit over the top. Not to mention the fact that it would also have required lots of people who just accidentally happened to know how to read that language which had been dead and gone (apart from this one inscription) even before the Second Age began.

Then again, perhaps the Old Tongue is really Finnlanguage, and it gets spread across the "normal world" during various Ages, Turn after Turn after Turn.
I think rather that the Old Tongue was developed from the Horn's inscription. Some people were speaking Esperanto in the year 3333 and discovered the Horn. They translated it (or made something up) and then developed a whole language from it.

Naturally, given the Whorf Hypothesis, the invention of the language created the entire realm of Tel'aran'rhiod to hold the Heroes that were drempt up by our descendants.

Cor Shan
01-12-2010, 04:47 AM
One of the things about the Horn that has always caused me to wonder about it is that it wasnt well known in the AOL, considered just a myth, its 'from an earlier Age' but the engraving on it is in the Old Tongue... why?

Maybe the Horn just has some writing on it, and since everyone "knows" whats on the Horn (from history and such), it doesn't matter that it looks unlike any other words in the rest of the OT, because they'd just assume that the inscription is "Older Old Tongue," or nonce words (which wouldn't make sense but whatever) or whatnot... Then the words just get incorporated into the rest of the OT, if they're reused elsewhere.

Or we just accept that the OT doesn't make sense at the best of times.

Weird Harold
01-12-2010, 05:09 AM
Maybe the Horn just has some writing on it, and since everyone "knows" whats on the Horn (from history and such), it doesn't matter that it looks unlike any other words ...

Since the HoV would seem to be drawn from and the inspiration for any of several magic horns from mythology and none of its predecessor or desendent incarnations is identical or insribed in in even related languages, I've alway felt that the Horn of Valere is an artifact of the pattern -- or perhaps an artifact of T'A'R.

The inscription on the Horn is in the Old Tongue because that's the "language of scholars" in the time and place it is incarnated to be used.

IOW, the Horn is "spun out" by the pattern when and where it is needed and reabsorbed when it is no longer needed. Its form and nature are endlessly mutable and only its function remains unchanging; to call forth dead heroes at time of great need/for a "last battle."

lurk
01-12-2010, 12:00 PM
The heroes in TAR are spun out through the ages and fulfill their role, IIRC they always end up doing hero like stuff. Sounds to me that they are supposed to be some (minor) taveren needed to reallign wayward threads in the pattern :)

and when the pattern itself becomes endangered you need them all and spinning them out is just to slow (need to be born, grow up etc.) so the horn is a backdoor to instant taveren power

of course Rand is the uber taveren and there are two strong ones too in Mat and Perrin so I am not really sure...

nameless
01-12-2010, 01:13 PM
The Heroes are not all ta'veren. Ta'veren are not all Heroes. The only Hero we know for sure to be ta'veren is Artur Hawkwing and even then all we know is that he was ta'veren when he was alive. There's no evidence that the effect continues into the afterlife.

Bonzi77
01-12-2010, 01:16 PM
The Heroes are not all ta'veren. Ta'veren are not all Heroes. The only Hero we know for sure to be ta'veren is Artur Hawkwing and even then all we know is that he was ta'veren when he was alive. There's no evidence that the effect continues into the afterlife.

There's actually evidence that ta'veren is not a permanent status for a person's entire life. When Loial first describes the concept to Rand in EotW he says "for a time, at least". (I don't have the book in front of me for an exact quote.)

dominominic
01-12-2010, 02:01 PM
Yes, and it's also hard to see why the Pattern would make Rand(and also Mat and Perrin) so strongly ta'veren if it still needed others.

Crispin's Crispian
01-12-2010, 02:07 PM
Rand is the other Hero we know is ta'veren.

I tend to think that when a Hero is playing his or her role in the Pattern, s/he is ta'veren by default. The Pattern may not bend itself to the extent that it does with the Tripod, but to the extent that the person is born with special talents into a Pattern-designed role, the Hero is influencing the Pattern.

dominominic
01-12-2010, 02:23 PM
Is there anyone other than Rand, Mat and Perrin wandering Randland who we either know or suspect is ta'veren?

I would find it odd if the Pattern would spin out three this strong, and this close, if that wasn't enough for any Pattern-bending required.

Has Birgitte demonstrated any ta'veren traits? Or is she not "playing her Hero-role" now that she's been severed from TAR?

Terez
01-12-2010, 03:28 PM
Rand is the other Hero we know is ta'veren.
And we also know that he was ta'veren as Lews Therin.

Birgitte will likely not be ta'veren until about 20-40 years down the road, when she would have been ta'veren under normal circumstances (assuming that she would have indeed been ta'veren).

Kimon
01-12-2010, 03:44 PM
Is there anyone other than Rand, Mat and Perrin wandering Randland who we either know or suspect is ta'veren?

I would find it odd if the Pattern would spin out three this strong, and this close, if that wasn't enough for any Pattern-bending required.

Has Birgitte demonstrated any ta'veren traits? Or is she not "playing her Hero-role" now that she's been severed from TAR?

It does beg the question, how did Siuan know that she had the ability to recognize ta'veren? Are ta'veren somehow more common phenomena than we have been led to believe, just that they normally only exist as minor strength ta'veren? Otherwise, how would she have been tested for and recognized this ability prior to her seeing Rand when she came to Fal Dara in The Great Hunt.

Crispin's Crispian
01-12-2010, 04:18 PM
And we also know that he was ta'veren as Lews Therin.

Birgitte will likely not be [i]ta'veren[i] until about 20-40 years down the road, when she would have been ta'veren under normal circumstances (assuming that she would have indeed been ta'veren).

Well that raises another question. Is ta'veren* status based on timing, or events, or some combination of the two. That is, would the Pattern use Birgitte as ta'veren now that she's available, even if she's prematurely available thanks to Moghedien?



*Sorry I don't always italicize the Old Tongue. Sometimes I just can't be bothered.

dominominic
01-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Well that raises another question. Is ta'veren status based on timing, or events, or some combination of the two?

If there is a Hero-timetable it would make sense if it was based on Wheel-events.

I can't see why the Pattern would need a 50-60 year old Birgitte to be ta'veren after the Last Battle.

Cor Shan
01-12-2010, 05:57 PM
*Sorry I don't always italicize the Old Tongue. Sometimes I just can't be bothered.

Typing that out was more effort than italics.

nameless
01-12-2010, 07:22 PM
Rand is the other Hero we know is ta'veren.

I tend to think that when a Hero is playing his or her role in the Pattern, s/he is ta'veren by default. The Pattern may not bend itself to the extent that it does with the Tripod, but to the extent that the person is born with special talents into a Pattern-designed role, the Hero is influencing the Pattern.

Everyone influences the Pattern, no matter if they're heroes or ta'veren or just regular shmucks. Heroes influence the pattern through their actions, whereas ta'veren influence the Pattern through their mere presence. They radiate destiny as a field force that alters threads around them the way a gravity source alters the motion of nearby objects. Anyone can influence another thread in the Pattern by interacting with it directly but only ta'veren can influence another thread just by being in the same city.

Belazamon
01-13-2010, 01:29 AM
*Sorry I don't always italicize the Old Tongue. Sometimes I just can't be bothered.
I don't see how you expect to be taken seriously as a scholar under such circumstances.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2010, 03:49 AM
It does beg the question, how did Siuan know that she had the ability to recognize ta'veren?Easy: the WT probably has a ta'veren-detection-detection-ter'angreal somewhere.

dominominic
01-13-2010, 04:32 AM
Easy: the WT probably has a ta'veren-detection-detection-ter'angreal somewhere.

Somewhere?

So they need a detector for ta'veren-detector-detector ter'angreal?

nameless
01-13-2010, 03:19 PM
They've had one of those all along but no one can make it work because they don't know the right song* to sing in order to activate it.

*"Louis Louis"

dominominic
01-13-2010, 03:51 PM
They've had one of those all along but no one can make it work because they don't know the right song* to sing in order to activate it.

*"Louis Louis"

Or maybe detecting ta'veren-detector-detectors is a Talent, but they've lost their detector for that too(possibly due to the ta'veren effect) so they don't know who can do that either?

Crispin's Crispian
01-13-2010, 07:34 PM
Or maybe detecting ta'veren-detector-detectors is a Talent, but they've lost their detector for that too(possibly due to the ta'veren effect) so they don't know who can do that either?

Clearly when Siuan sees ta'veren, she sees the actual word "TA'VEREN" in blinking letters over their head. Also in italics.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2010, 05:16 AM
Yeah, but how does she know that means they're ta'veren?
It could be that they are simply thinking of going to a tavern, and she, as an uneducated Tairen fish wife, merely misspells that.

Casabamelon
01-14-2010, 10:41 AM
They've had one of those all along but no one can make it work because they don't know the right song* to sing in order to activate it.

*"Louis Louis"

It's "All Along the Watchtower"
________
TOYOTA ECHO (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Echo)

nameless
01-14-2010, 04:10 PM
I thought that song was for making the Talisman of Growing open a Ways path to the new Earth :P

dominominic
01-14-2010, 04:24 PM
It's "All Along the Watchtower"

"Friends in Logain's Places" by Garth Brooks...

dominominic
01-14-2010, 04:33 PM
"Like a Stone(of Tear)" by Audioslave...

dominominic
01-14-2010, 04:39 PM
"Frame by (Twisted Redstone Door)Frame" by King Crimson...

...okay I'll stop now...

dominominic
01-14-2010, 04:50 PM
...just one more, I can't help myself!

"Here Comes Your Man(etheren)" by The Pixies...

dominominic
01-14-2010, 06:40 PM
..."(Ji'e'toh)tal Eclipse of the Heart" by Bonnie Tyler...

fdsaf3
01-14-2010, 07:07 PM
I have a clarifying question here: Is the Dragon by definition a Hero of the Horn? I'm not sure that he is, and I'll do my best to explain why.

LTT was the Dragon, the only other one we know of in the series, and he was never referred to as a Hero of the Horn (as far as I know). When Mat blew the Horn of Valere in book 2, LTT didn't pop out and start dominating the Seanchan with the OP. Unless you want to argue that the Horn being blown "triggered" Rand's interactions with the voice of LTT in his head, I think it's safe to say that LTT wasn't a Hero. Since LTT was the Dragon and was not a Hero, I don't understand why the character of the Dragon would be considered a Hero.

Can someone explain?

Ieyasu
01-14-2010, 07:37 PM
I have a clarifying question here: Is the Dragon by definition a Hero of the Horn? I'm not sure that he is, and I'll do my best to explain why.

LTT was the Dragon, the only other one we know of in the series, and he was never referred to as a Hero of the Horn (as far as I know). When Mat blew the Horn of Valere in book 2, LTT didn't pop out and start dominating the Seanchan with the OP. Unless you want to argue that the Horn being blown "triggered" Rand's interactions with the voice of LTT in his head, I think it's safe to say that LTT wasn't a Hero. Since LTT was the Dragon and was not a Hero, I don't understand why the character of the Dragon would be considered a Hero.

Can someone explain?

You are right, LTT did not pop out.. because Rand was already there.

Hawkwing recognized Rand as LTT's soul, made comments about fighting against him as many times as with him (which couldnt happen unless each was reborn for a specific purpose al la Hero status), and that Rand could 'tell them if he remembered the last time he wore flesh' etc...
After reading Hawkwing's dialogue in TGH, I dont see how anyone could possibly question Rand's Hero status... even furthermore, after TGS and knowing he remembers countless infinite incarnations all battling the Dark One... again, how is it possible that you can question the Hero status of the Dragon Soul?

EDIT: There is even a RJ interview quote about the Dragon Soul fullfilling other Hero roles of a non-Dragon variety in other ages of the Wheel's 7 age cycle.

Terez
01-14-2010, 08:59 PM
Hawkwing recognized Rand as LTT's soul, made comments about fighting against him as many times as with him (which couldn't happen unless each was reborn for a specific purpose al la Hero status)
Just a nitpick....Brandon said that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often twined together as champions of Light and Shadow, that Ishamael wasn't lying about that. RJ said that he couldn't see how it would be beneficial for a corrective mechanism to be a Darkfriend, so Heroes can't be the only ones with recurring purposes.

In any case, the scene at Falme does make it pretty hard to deny that Rand is not only a Hero, but the uber-Hero.

Ieyasu
01-15-2010, 02:18 AM
Just a nitpick....Brandon said that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often twined together as champions of Light and Shadow, that Ishamael wasn't lying about that. RJ said that he couldn't see how it would be beneficial for a corrective mechanism to be a Darkfriend, so Heroes can't be the only ones with recurring purposes.

In any case, the scene at Falme does make it pretty hard to deny that Rand is not only a Hero, but the uber-Hero.

I dont remember anything of that nature being said by RJ. I have long thought Hero's could be light or dark depending on what's needed.

Well, now that I think about it, perhaps not Dark Hero's per se... but I have definitely always thought there are Dark Friend taveren, which are also a pattern corrective mechanism.

Terez
01-15-2010, 08:39 AM
I dont remember anything of that nature being said by RJ.
Look in the Workings of the Wheel category, and you will find it.