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Luckers
01-11-2010, 04:14 AM
I was reading through your thread on the mysteries of Cyndane in the General board, and was going to post this but wasn't sure if it qualified as a spoiler over here. If it doesn't and this is clutter please feel free to move it to that thread.

In any case I wrote this on Dragonmount, and Terez has been telling me I should come play over here, and since its related to what you're currently discussing--anyway, enough jibber jabber, and sorry if this is clutter.

So, the was a bit of confusion about Cyndane's strength in the signing question and answers session. Here is the Q&A and Brandon's later clarification.

Question: I asked about [Cyndane's] strength in the OP.

Answer: Brandon says she’s very, very weak. This surprised me since I didn’t think she was that weak.

6. CLARIFICATION: Okay, time to post about Cyndane for you Theorylanders. I have been discussing with Maria all day. She and I have different opinions on some things in the notes, but she has convinced me that she is right. I believed that there were some issues with her Power level—the Dark One playing tricks to keep everyone guessing—but Maria convinced me her Power really is what it seems. So you can disregard my comment about her being really, really weak and stick with the word I used earlier—"weakened." This is what you get for asking about things that we are still picking apart the notes regarding.

Matt: ...exactly…he was transmigrated into a different body, but still channeling the same power the soul inherits. So considering Jordan's statement about stilling and burning out not affecting the channeling ability of the new life of a soul, is the same for the new life of a soul transmigrated?

Brandon: I’m going to say that transmigrated…if you were burned out and transmigrated you would still be burned out, is my guess.

Matt: Is that a MAFO question? Or…

Brandon: ...that is my guess and you can MAFO it if you want to send it to me, but that is a “I’m pretty sure” answer.

Matt: You saw where we were going…

Brandon: ...yes, I see where you are going…

Matt: ...I had to do the build up to it because it all comes down to that one question for a couple of things.

Brandon: This one question you are going to ask next?

Matt: I’m not going to ask it…

Brandon: ...oh, the one you asked…

Matt: ...yeah, I guess I asked a piece of it last night…

Brandon: ...when it comes to this certain character that you are talking about, there is a whole thing where Maria and I exchanged a bunch of emails about this. She had managed to pull some things out of the notes that I had not seen, which is interesting, because I was going off of something else. I did not think that Cyndane should be nearly as powerful as she was put in the books as being, so I had been under the belief that the Dark One was pulling shenanigans…

Matt: ...like a little, in essence, let’s say what the Forsaken Lanfear did to Asmodean, you thought maybe the Dark One was doing some similar…shielding…

Brandon: …or the other way around…here is a little extra power you can draw upon while I am pleased with you, I can take this away…

Matt: ...that is a question…let’s jump to that question, there have been some theories that talk about Lanfear…

Brandon: ...let’s back up and say I was wrong. I was interpreting the notes a certain way. Maria was able to pull something out that I had not seen that made it clear that I had misinterpreted and that that is not the case, Cyndane is not under any shenanigans. What you see is what you get.

Matt: Cyndane and her alter ego have never been under any shenanigans?

Brandon: I’m not going to say never been under any shenanigans, but when you see her creating a gateway she is legitimately powerful enough to do it, which I did not believe that she was. Does that make sense? This is all digging into my read of the notes versus and Maria’s read of the notes and Maria was right. She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense.

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book or so why there is a decrease in power but not a significant decrease?

Brandon: Yes.


So, I find this very interesting. Essentially Brandon was under the impression that Cyndane's strength was much weaker than it was, and that her occasional bursts of strength were due to the Dark One playing around. This was not the case, her strength is still quite strong--stronger than Graendal--and that’s what it's always been.

So the first question is, what was it in the notes that led Brandon to his false conclusion? Given how long Brandon and Maria debated it I'd say it had to be something quite clear. My guess is that the notes stated that Cyndane was burned out during her fall into Finnland, and then healed by a woman. Given Siuan and Leane this provides for why Brandon would think Cyndane should be so much weaker.

If that guess is right it brings us to the next question--why wasn't she as drastically reduced as Siuan and Leane? That's an old question, and there have been lots of suggested answers, from the idea that the method of healing was perfected [by Semirhage usually] before being employed on her, to the idea that the stronger you are the less strength you lose in a same gender healing, to everything else under the sun. The problem with any of these is the third question; why did it take Maria a day to convince Brandon that Cyndane wasn't as weak as he thought she was?

What I mean by that is that Brandon is about as far from a dummy as you can get, so the answer can't be as simple as 'Cyndane wasn't as reduced as much as Siuan and Leane because [insert the answer here]'. They wouldn't have needed to debate the issue for a full day before Maria convinced Brandon if it were as simple as her showing him a bit he'd missed which detailed why Cyndane was different from Siuan and Leane.

I suggest that what Maria was showing him was not how Cyndane managed to retain such strength, but rather that she always should have retained such strength. Or, put another way, that what the notes made clear was that Siuan and Leane did not, in fact, lose as much strength as everyone assumes them to have, and that subsequently Cyndane's loss of strength is not aberrant, but rather in the same style as Siuan and Leane.

Let’s have a look at Siuan and Leane’s strength.

[b]The Weak Shall Inherit the Earth--But Not Today: The Aes Sedai Hierarchy

The first thing that must be kept in mind is that Siuan and Leane’s opinions on this issue are skewed by the influence of the Hierarchy. The Aes Sedai represent only a limited range of strengths, with Daigian establishing the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Siuan’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

RJ said 36.2% of all female channelers are below the Aes Sedai cut off strength. For the sake of argument lets just assume that strength is evenly distributed, and that means the cut off strength is around the 30 mark on a scale of one hundred. Also, again for purely argumentative purposes, lets presuppose Siuan’s original strength was around 60. This means that the Aes Sedai Hierarchy roughly includes only about 30% of the full strength range for female channelers.

All of this means that a very small loss in strength results in a far greater loss in social standing. At a ratio of about 1:3, to be exact. All of this is a bit irrelevant in truth, I’m just pointing out that we should tread warily in giving too much credence to any Aes Sedai’s judgement of the degree of Siuan and Leane’s decline.

Now, keeping that in mind, let’s consider...

Half of What We Were

The big point in the question of Siuan and Leane’s strength is the quote which seemingly states that they are currently less than half their previous strength. Here it is

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”
[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

Quite clear. If they could be bought up to half of what they were they would be better off. That suggests to me at least a 60% strength loss, and probably more. Only there is a problem. Despite Siuan’s comments both Siuan and Leane stand above the Aes Sedai cut off strength. Indeed, they stand a step or two above that cut off strength, as we can show here.

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.
[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

So we have two women around Siuan’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the few Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Siuan. Now Siuan and Leane were both strong, but they weren’t Forsaken level. A loss of more than 60% of their strength should not have left them above the Aes Sedai cut off point, much less several steps above it.

Straight up that means there is something off about Siuan’s comment. I agree if Cyndane had never come onto the screen I would probably have dismissed it as a weird bit of hyperbole, or something—but now a few questions come to mind. For one, would Siuan have been able to say what she said if she was still sworn to the Oaths? I’m not suggesting she intentionally lied, but we know from Beonin that the Oaths will clamp down on excited utterings.

And if you think about the effect of the Hierarchy on the perceptions of comparative strength standings of Aes Sedai you can see where Siuan would have gotten mixed up about the whole thing. I mean if you look at the Aes Sedai in a vacuum she lost considerably more than half her strength. She went from the very top to a couple of steps from the bottom—and take a look at her comments to Nynaeve, they are littered with references to the Hierarchy and the strength judgements in it are all related immediately to where such a change would leave Siuan and Leane within that Hierarchy.

Gareth Bryne, That Fat Bastard

The other big issue that seems to imply that Siuan lost a great deal of strength is the fact that she cannot lift Gareth Bryne. She cannot even budge him, yet before she was stilled she could lift more than three times her own weight. Of course this assumes that each degree in the power must result in an exact amount of weight lifted, which is problematic. It may well be that the weight one can lift comparative to ones strength increases at an uneven rate. As in, Siuan at 60 could lift 180kg of weight, but Siuan at 40 can only lift 30kg of weight.

The reason I suggest this is that Siuan herself states that lifting things with the Power is amongst the most difficult things to do—-not 'requires the most strength' but 'is the most difficult'. Why difficult? You either have the muscles to do it, or not. If you do it is not difficult--it doesn't require any training or specific talent--you just have the strength to lift that thing.

Now, we know strength effects capability in ways beyond simply making it easier due to more ‘power muscles’. Stronger channelers are more dextrous, they pick things up faster. I’d suggest there is a similar issue at play with lifting things—and indeed we know that there other things in play with lifting things with the power. Rules inherent to the function of the power, like the heights comparative channelers can lift things to--women for instance can lift things higher than men--Egwene higher than Rand by more than two feet.

Indeed, if you think about it this is even more implausible than the less than half argument. Bryne doesn't weight much more than Siuan (he's a relatively small man). If strength to weight is exact and Siuan used to be able to life more than three times her own weight, but now cannot even stir Bryne's feet, than she must be down to around one third her original strength, if not more--which again would fall far below the cut off point.

Conclusions

There are solid reasons we can discount either the Finns or the Dark One being the source of Cyndane's decline in strength, and strong evidence that she was burned out when she fell through the doorway ter'angreal. We know the presumed original strength of the Cyndane body is not the source of the decline. All of which has always brought us to her being burned out and healed by a woman--except for the discrepancy between Cyndane's loss and Siuan and Leane's.

And it’s reasonable that people found the discrepancy such a big issue. It does seem to clearly state the degree of Siuan and Leane's loss. But that is specifically why I think this is the issue that confused Brandon. The clarity of the statements about Siuan and Leane's strength is so great it makes sense that should Brandon have encountered statements in the notes about Cyndane being burned out and healed by a woman he would think she had to be very, very weak, and thus would assume something else was at play (in effect that the Dark One was playing around, lending her strength to travel, and so forth).

Similarly it makes sense that it took a full day for Maria to show Brandon evidence of Siuan and Leane's actual strength in the notes. In fact I would say it is the only one that makes sense--any answer to Cyndane's decline which is specific to Cyndane would also be unique to Cyndane--thus the only way to clarify it for Brandon would be if there was a specific statement in the notes as to this unique 'strength limiter'. That very uniqueness would therefore make it easily identifiable, and therefore make the day of study peculiar.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2010, 04:29 AM
I have never understood why Brandon would think that Cyndane might not be strong enough to make gateways. The very first time she's introduced Graendal notices that Cyndane is stronger than she herself is.

Luckers
01-11-2010, 04:52 AM
I didn't really either. That's what led me down this path.

Still, we don't actually have access to the notes, and he did say he was going of something specific within them--I reckon it's a comment stating that she was burned and healed by a women which would lend itself to the idea that she should have been much weaker--but whatever he was going on I'm guessing it was pretty clear prior to the bits that Maria pulled to clarify the issue. Brandon's no dummy.

Terez
01-11-2010, 06:44 AM
I wouldn't put too much weight on the fact that it took so long for Maria to show him that Cyndane was weaker. He was on book tour at the time, and quite busy, so I'm sure that he had little time for talking with her about it.

Luckers
01-11-2010, 06:51 AM
True, but he did tell Tam that he and Maria 'exchanged a bunch of emails about this.'

That shows there was a fairly detailed conversation on the issue. Time requirements aside ot took a deal of back and forth for Maria to convince Brandon.

Terez
01-11-2010, 06:59 AM
I bet they were mostly one-liners sent from his phone. :D But yeah, my original impression about his confusion was that it had to do with Siuan and Leane's reduced strength (which I wrote in the thread where we posted the quote on the Book Tour board). Seems to be the most logical explanation.

One Armed Gimp
01-11-2010, 08:10 AM
I have never understood why Brandon would think that Cyndane might not be strong enough to make gateways. The very first time she's introduced Graendal notices that Cyndane is stronger than she herself is.

I always assumed it was because he was a more casual fan of the series and not someone that read the books 5+ times dissecting it over and over. I believe that's where most of his hiccups come from. For instance, the whole small detail thing, first pops up in books 4 - 6. If he told us the small detail I believe quite a few HCFF's could easily tell you what book. Some could tell you what chapter and Terez could probably tell you what paragraph. Point is, while he has the notes, he does not seem that have the near line by line knowledge that HCFF's possess.

Terez
01-11-2010, 08:23 AM
He has been doing pretty good, considering the circumstances, I think. He studied well. But there were a few mistakes in the books that even Maria didn't catch, and she is just as HCFF as any of us, I think - probably more than most.

One Armed Gimp
01-11-2010, 08:37 AM
I agree he has been doing well, and I do not fault him for his hiccups. I just try to remember that when I read some of his Q&A sessions. I personally think he does a great job of not giving anything away if he is unsure on it. For instance the question regarding Mat's medallion and blocking only saidar. Its a question most here would not have asked since we already know and I think Brandon knew but he could not remember an example from the books and did not want to give it away if it wasn't in there so he RAFO'd it. Same thing goes for mistakes in the books. Its not like it Jordan dropping a hint.

And I would never expect one person to catch every mistake, that takes a community.

Bonzi77
01-11-2010, 11:26 AM
I always assumed it was because he was a more casual fan of the series and not someone that read the books 5+ times dissecting it over and over. I believe that's where most of his hiccups come from. For instance, the whole small detail thing, first pops up in books 4 - 6. If he told us the small detail I believe quite a few HCFF's could easily tell you what book. Some could tell you what chapter and Terez could probably tell you what paragraph. Point is, while he has the notes, he does not seem that have the near line by line knowledge that HCFF's possess.

I don't think he's a "casual" fan. He's made several statements regarding have read the series many times over. I think it's just a matter inevitable mistakes and misunderstandings over the course of thousands and thousands of pages of material. Personally, I've read each book at least 3 times and some of them 4 or 5 and there's been several things I didn't realize I was wrong about until I started posting here. Even now I'm listening to the series on audiobook and I'm still catching things I missed before. There's just too much material for anyone other than Robert Jordan to have perfect comprehension of it.

Davian93
01-11-2010, 11:50 AM
If that guess is right it brings us to the next question--why wasn't she as drastically reduced as Siuan and Leane?

First off, Welcome to TL, Luckers. Good to see you.


My guess/answer to the above question remains the same: She wasn't drastically reduced because she wasn't stilled.

Davian93
01-11-2010, 11:52 AM
I didn't really either. That's what led me down this path.

Still, we don't actually have access to the notes, and he did say he was going of something specific within them--I reckon it's a comment stating that she was burned and healed by a women which would lend itself to the idea that she should have been much weaker--but whatever he was going on I'm guessing it was pretty clear prior to the bits that Maria pulled to clarify the issue. Brandon's no dummy.

Unless of course BS just assumed that was why she was weaker. He's not exactly WoT Canon when he's going off memory.

Terez
01-11-2010, 11:57 AM
My guess/answer to the above question remains the same: She wasn't drastically reduced because she wasn't stilled.
That doesn't explain why Brandon was confused, though. Also, it is hard to believe that Brandon doesn't know why she is weaker.

Crispin's Crispian
01-11-2010, 12:10 PM
I bet they were mostly one-liners sent from his phone. :D But yeah, my original impression about his confusion was that it had to do with Siuan and Leane's reduced strength (which I wrote in the thread where we posted the quote on the Book Tour board). Seems to be the most logical explanation.

I don't want to hazard a guess about what part of the notes they were debating, but his confusion is certainly damaging to my Artificial Enhancement theory. Something like what I proposed would be glaringly obvious in the notes, and would brook no confusion.

As a last gasp, I could suggest that it was enhancement combined with a stilling or burning out that caused the power differential. That is, she could still have been enhanced, but Brandon thought that the loss of her enhancement in addition to the Siuan/Leane evidence should have caused a greater drop.

Otherwise, I'm not stubborn. ;)

Davian93
01-11-2010, 12:12 PM
That doesn't explain why Brandon was confused, though. Also, it is hard to believe that Brandon doesn't know why she is weaker.

He's made some mistakes in the past...Maria knew the truth, BS just likely remembered it wrong when answering a question.

Luckers
01-11-2010, 03:36 PM
That's part of why I wrote this theory though--if it were as simple as something in the notes saying 'burn outs are less reduced than stilled folk when healed by the same gender' it wouldn't have taken the type of back and forth for Maria to explain.

And thanks for the welcome Davian.

Tamyrlin
01-15-2010, 12:52 PM
Welcome Luckers - sorry, been a bit busy since December, so I just noticed you popped in. Don't have a ton of time to respond to what you posted right at the moment, but did want to say hi.

Damn...so much to do...and JordanCon is right around the corner!

Sukoto
01-15-2010, 02:25 PM
It occurred to me that we have not seen any instance in the books of someone being burned out and then healed. In fact, the only person that I can think of in the books who was burned out is Satelle Anan. She hasn't been healed (yet). So, we don't really know if it's possible, do we?

Terez
01-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Brandon hinted that it might be possible, but RJ's description suggests that it would require a different method. So if Lanfear was Healed, it seems most likely that she was severed rather than burned out. It's easy to see that happening, if Moiraine was fighting her, and Moiraine had the advantage with the two angreal. The lightnings didn't start around the ter'angreal until after they went through it; it seems likely that their fight on the other side is what caused it, and I see no reason to assume that the trip through the doorway caused them to be burned out.

Luckers
01-23-2010, 09:31 AM
Welcome Luckers - sorry, been a bit busy since December, so I just noticed you popped in. Don't have a ton of time to respond to what you posted right at the moment, but did want to say hi.

Damn...so much to do...and JordanCon is right around the corner!

I know, right! Damn these new releases. They do nothing but create stress for us. lol.

Catch you at the FAQ mate. Try and have fun at JordanCon.

It occurred to me that we have not seen any instance in the books of someone being burned out and then healed. In fact, the only person that I can think of in the books who was burned out is Satelle Anan. She hasn't been healed (yet). So, we don't really know if it's possible, do we?

I don't really have time to respond, but there is something to be considered on this issue in the question of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgaine--what Rand did to them was not the knife sharp severing of stilling, rather he crushed weaves they were maintaining in flows of spirit, presumably over-straining their ability and thus burning them out.

They are termed to be stilled, because it was done to them, but in truth it was a side effect of what was done to their weaves.

There is a lot more to that, and I know this is weak for me to dodge off and say that. Sorry. I'll try and get back in on Monday.

Spasmodean
01-23-2010, 10:00 AM
They are termed to be stilled, because it was done to them, but in truth it was a side effect of what was done to their weaves.

There is a lot more to that, and I know this is weak for me to dodge off and say that. Sorry. I'll try and get back in on Monday.

They were healed by Damer too, and to full strength.
I really look forward to the day he and Nynaeve sit down and compare notes.

Neilbert
01-23-2010, 12:56 PM
I don't really have time to respond, but there is something to be considered on this issue in the question of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgaine--what Rand did to them was not the knife sharp severing of stilling, rather he crushed weaves they were maintaining in flows of spirit, presumably over-straining their ability and thus burning them out.

They are termed to be stilled, because it was done to them, but in truth it was a side effect of what was done to their weaves.

They were termed to be stilled because Rand intentionally stilled them.

From Dumai's Wells:

When he reached for saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit.

The third, an angular woman, was on her knees staring at nothing, clutching her head in both hands and screaming. She seemed untouched by all the splinters and pieces of the chest. He did not recognize any of them. An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erian he had stilled – he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him; Rand hoped it had been his own idea, however hasty – an instant, and he saw another shape stretched out on the ground beneath bits of the chest.

Sodas
01-23-2010, 04:45 PM
Actually, I think the reduction in power was best explained by Brandon's comments from Sandy, UT, 12/5/09.

3. Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (ie, just because you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber channel in one body, you could be weak in the power in your next body.

Just because Lanfear's Soul was transfered into Cyndane's body doesn't mean that she would be just as powerful. It seems to me that Cyndane's body simply isn't capable of being as powerful as Lanfear's. We were just over thinking it.

Terez
01-23-2010, 07:07 PM
They are termed to be stilled, because it was done to them, but in truth it was a side effect of what was done to their weaves.
I believe that the Aes Sedai know the difference between stilling and burning out. With one, you can still sense the Source; with the other, you cannot. So, regardless of the method that was used, it's the result that matters, and if they say they were stilled, then that means they could still sense the Source. Setalle can't.

Davian93
01-23-2010, 07:58 PM
I believe that the Aes Sedai know the difference between stilling and burning out. With one, you can still sense the Source; with the other, you cannot. So, regardless of the method that was used, it's the result that matters, and if they say they were stilled, then that means they could still sense the Source. Setalle can't.

They were stilled, not burnt out.

Setalle's experience with the Adam suggests that being burnt out simply cant be healed. Much like growing a hand back, Healing can heal the stump but not give you a hand back.

Terez
01-23-2010, 08:16 PM
Well, Brandon hinted on tour that burning out can be Healed, when he said that Nynaeve is 'on the right track', but it seems clear that it would require at least a slightly different method. Someone suggested to RJ on tour that maybe it was something like the difference between a cleanly cut wound and a cauterized wound, and RJ answered in the affirmative. There's got to be some reason why they can't sense the Source at all.

Davian93
01-23-2010, 08:45 PM
Well, Brandon hinted on tour that burning out can be Healed, when he said that Nynaeve is 'on the right track', but it seems clear that it would require at least a slightly different method. Someone suggested to RJ on tour that maybe it was something like the difference between a cleanly cut wound and a cauterized wound, and RJ answered in the affirmative. There's got to be some reason why they can't sense the Source at all.

Spiritual scar tissue perhaps?

Terez
01-23-2010, 10:03 PM
Yeah. I meant to mention that there is support for Luckers' idea because RJ also said on tour (in the same quote) that stilling is purposefully done, while being burned out is an accident. But Rand did do it purposefully, even though he used a different method, and for an Aes Sedai, the most important difference should be whether or not they can still sense the Source.

Weird Harold
01-23-2010, 10:48 PM
Spiritual scar tissue perhaps?
Probably morelike the difference in repair costs if the magic smoke that runs your computer came out of the power cord or the motherboard when it escaped.

Luckers
01-24-2010, 03:04 AM
They were termed to be stilled because Rand intentionally stilled them.


No, Rand intentionally crushed flows they were holding in fists of spirit. Whether his goal was to sever them--and frankly I think you'd be hard pressed to make that argument, I think he really was just in the moment acting blindly to nuetralize them with no thought to the consequences--but even if you suggested it was his intention that they be left unable to touch the source--he did not set out to slice their connection using the knife-like weave Nynaeve states is stilling. Here.

The knife-sharp shield that Egwene had used to still Amico Nagoyin sprang into being, more weapon than shield, lashed at Moghedien-and was blocked, woven Spirit straining against woven Spirit, just short of severing Moghedien from the Source forever.

[tSR; 54, Into the Palace]

Which is significant because here is when people jump in with the 'maybe its the male method of 'stilling' etc. Because what people are talking about (in reference to this specific topic) when they speak of the difference between stilling and burning out is the difference in result. Or as Terez put it, "With [stilling], you can still sense the Source; with , you cannot."

However, thats not precisely correct. The glossary illuminates the problem clearly, I think.

stilling:
The act, [B]performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

Similarily the Aes Sedai who speak of people who have been stilled still sensing the source, are speaking of people who have been stilled by a woman employing the knife-like weave described by Nynaeve.

Which, coming full circle back to your comment, that Rand set out to still them--no. He did not set out to employ Nynaeve's knife-sharp weave.

Now, what Rand did was 'crush' weaves they were maintaining in flows of spirit. This over-strained their ability, severing them from the True Source.

Whether this is the male method of stilling--and I frankly doubt it, we see in tSR that the male method of shielding is the same in description as the female, and Nynaeve creates a correlation between the stilling and shielding female weaves, which I believe suggests at least circumstantially that the male method will be a similar knife-like weave--the fact is that what Rand did has far more in common with burning out than with the female method of stilling.

A third party [Rand/ter'angreal] strained the ability of an Aes Sedai by stressing a weave they were maintaining, and as a result her ability was expunged.

Which is why I suggest that what happened with Sashelle, Irgaine and Ronaile, despite them being termed to have been 'stilled' by Rand stands as suggestive evidence that burning out can indeed be healed.

Just because Lanfear's Soul was transfered into Cyndane's body doesn't mean that she would be just as powerful. It seems to me that Cyndane's body simply isn't capable of being as powerful as Lanfear's. We were just over thinking it.

Except each one of the other Frosaken were exactly their previous strength. That the Dark One found three bodies of perfect strength distribution (including a woman who was that strong in saidin, mind) makes this hard to swallow.

Whatever the effect the body has has on the strength of a channeler in the cycle of rebirth, it seems unlikely it has the same constraints on transmigrated souls.

Setalle's experience with the Adam suggests that being burnt out simply cant be healed. Much like growing a hand back, Healing can heal the stump but not give you a hand back.

You mean comparative to Siuan and Leane's experience with Moghedian? That's misleading--what happened to Joline was that she moved without the a'dam being properly linked to a capable sul'dam--Seanchan a'dam induce nausia if you attempt to do that, and you'll note the nausia Joline experiences doesn't hit till the second step--which is precisely what Egwene states in tGH.

Moghedian's a'dam, meanwhile had been altered by Elayne so that she could move without someone wearing the bracelet anyway--and even if she hadn't Moghedian never attempted to move whilst Siuan and Leane wore the bracelet.

As for Siuan and Leane sensing things--perhaps Setelle did too. She has good reason to have hidden it if she had, she doesn't want Joline knowing her secret.

But Rand did do it purposefully, even though he used a different method, and for an Aes Sedai, the most important difference should be whether or not they can still sense the Source.

I don't know if it can be said Rand did it purposefully. What he did was crush flows they were maintaining. That caused them to be severed from the True Source. But did Rand intend, in that moment of action, that that be the result?

Its like if your in a fight with someone. Say a drunk brawl. You pull a gun and shoot them. Or just shove them off and they fall back in front of a bus. Either way the result is the same, they're dead. And either way its your fault. But we term one murder, and the other manslaughter.

In effect what I am saying is just because Rand initiated it, doesn't mean its not an accident they ended up unable to touch the source.

But meh.

Luckers
01-24-2010, 03:13 AM
Also Egwene and the Rebel Aes Sedai seem to think burning out can be healed, as Egwene states clearly that novices no longer had to fear burning themselves out. That comment may have just being an assumption on her part, based on the healing of Siuan and Leane--yet it seems a remarkable one if it is. Aes Sedai are very aware of the difference between Stilling and Burning Out. You would think someone would have raised the question.

And yes, Aes Sedai are given to trusting assumptions without evidence, but that's usually applied to long held beliefs. Paradoxically they are actually quite methodical when it comes to studying something new. Therefore the certainty with which Egwene thinks it could be taken as evidence that the Aes Sedai have concidered this issue, and for some evidentiary reason we arn't aware of now regard it as resolved (say, a novice really did burn herself out, and got healed).

Or the Aes Sedai have displayed heretofore unknown levels of stupidity. Whichever.

Terez
01-24-2010, 05:40 AM
Also Egwene and the Rebel Aes Sedai seem to think burning out can be healed, as Egwene states clearly that novices no longer had to fear burning themselves out.
Egwene thinks it to herself, but it could easily be a bad assumption on her part. She also thinks to herself earlier in the series that she cannot see the point of having two different names for the same thing, and she was apparently not even taught that stilled women could still sense the Source while burned-out women could not. Vandene still considers burning out a serious risk in The Path of Daggers, and so does Elayne; both Elayne and Aviendha still consider it a risk in Knife of Dreams.

Luckers
01-24-2010, 06:12 AM
Egwene thinks it to herself, but it could easily be a bad assumption on her part. She also thinks to herself earlier in the series that she cannot see the point of having two different names for the same thing, and she was apparently not even taught that stilled women could still sense the Source while burned-out women could not. Vandene still considers burning out a serious risk in The Path of Daggers, and so does Elayne; both Elayne and Aviendha still consider it a risk in Knife of Dreams.

Egwene's not alone. She specifically thinks this thought in reference to how hard it is to pull the novices back in light of the healing. She's not personally involved in dealing with novices, which means she's relating information attained from Aes Sedai that are. As such its a general assumption of the Rebel Aes Sedai--or else one of them would have pointed out to the overeager novices that the new healing gives them no assurances.

Indeed your additions of Vandene and Elayne suggests that those with Egwene have actually witnessed burn outs being healed. That others reguard it warily suggests that the fact that Egwene does not means she has reason not to.

It is, however, plausible that Vandene and Elayne are refering to it in terms of the detrimental loss of strength.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2010, 12:21 PM
"What I did - because I had no choice, because I didn't know better - is called forcing, Nicola, and it is dangerous." She had not heard that term until Siuan apologized for doing it to her; that was one time Siuan truly had seemed repentant. "You know if you try to channel more of saidar than you’re ready to handle, you risk burning yourself out before you ever come close to your full strength. Best you learn to be patient. The sisters won’t let you be anything else until you are ready, anyway."Now, it is quite possible that Egwene is skirting the edges of the 3 Oaths here, but on the other hand, this is quite a clear suggestion that being burned out is still considered a very credible threat. If Nicola didn't believe it, then she would not be deterred by the warning.

Neilbert
01-24-2010, 01:16 PM
No, Rand intentionally crushed flows they were holding in fists of spirit. Whether his goal was to sever them--and frankly I think you'd be hard pressed to make that argument, I think he really was just in the moment acting blindly to nuetralize them with no thought to the consequences--

You think he was acting blindly with no thought to the consequences? Did you read the section I quoted for you?

Here, have some more:

Muttering darkly, Rand returned to feeling blindly across that smooth plain to the six soft points. Sooner or later, they would let him out. Sooner or later, they would slacken their guard. And when they did... He did not even know it when he began a rasping laugh.

Rand in a Dark Place.

Six points, but one was hard now. Not soft; hard. And then a second. A third. Rasping laughter filled his ears; that was his, he realized after a moment. A fourth knot became hard. He waited, trying to stifle what sounded uncomfortably like deranged giggling. The last two points remained soft. Those muffled cackles died.

He's on the ragged edge of sanity.

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit.

He crushes them ruthlessly eh? Seems like there's some anger there.

An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erian he had stilled – he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him; Rand hoped it had been his own idea, however hasty – an instant, and he saw another shape stretched out on the ground beneath bits of the chest.

Oh hey, the guy who actually knows how this all works had every intention of severing the Aes Sedai.

But hey, if it's any consolation you're right. Rand didn't intentionally sever those women. Rand would never harm a woman. It was Lews Therin. :rolleyes:

Rand was on the ragged edge of sanity, giggling like a madman and planning very evil deeds. Stilling the three Sisters who had him shielded was a rash and hasty act, done in the heat of anger, but it was intentional. It wasn't some accident. At that moment, and for that moment, even though he calmed down some immediately afterwards (and who knows how it would have gone if he hadn't immediately seen Min), he had every intent and desire to sever.

but even if you suggested it was his intention that they be left unable to touch the source--he did not set out to slice their connection using the knife-like weave Nynaeve states is stilling.

He didn't do what women do to sever someone. But you doubt that women and men sever differently. Do you also doubt that someone who has memories of the Age of Legends, and fighting in the War of Power would know more about severing than Nynaeve?

I don't know if it can be said Rand did it purposefully. What he did was crush flows they were maintaining. That caused them to be severed from the True Source. But did Rand intend, in that moment of action, that that be the result?

You read a lot into a scene for someone ignoring the obvious implications of what I bolded. Crushing the flows is your interpretation. The flows however come from the Aes Sedai themselves. So he did more than crush the flows, he crushed them. And he did so ruthlessly.

Which is why I suggest that what happened with Sashelle, Irgaine and Ronaile, despite them being termed to have been 'stilled' by Rand stands as suggestive evidence that burning out can indeed be healed.

Which is a bit strange because you are suggesting that because being in a state where you can sense the True Source can be healed, being in a state were you can not must also be able to be healed. There is no logic there. Not even a little.

Its like if your in a fight with someone. Say a drunk brawl. You pull a gun and shoot them. Or just shove them off and they fall back in front of a bus. Either way the result is the same, they're dead. And either way its your fault. But we term one murder, and the other manslaughter.

Except drunken brawler Rand wasn't drunk, just emotionally haggard and very angry, and had spent the past two hours or so ranting about how he was going to push someone in front of a bus.

We would also call both victims "dead". Much like we call both victims "severed", because regardless of the path taken, the results are the exact same.

In effect what I am saying is just because Rand initiated it, doesn't mean its not an accident they ended up unable to touch the source.

And I'm saying that you can only come to that conclusion if you selectively ignore large parts of what happened.

Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him

Or the Aes Sedai have displayed heretofore unknown levels of stupidity.

That would be unknown? That's less stupid than kidnapping the only hope of the world, who must fulfill a laundry list of prophecies for the world to even stand a chance, and locking him in an ivory tower for his own safekeeping?

Aes Sedai being criminally stupid is not new news. Aes Sedai making stupid assumptions is very not news.

Kimon
01-24-2010, 03:15 PM
That would be unknown? That's less stupid than kidnapping the only hope of the world, who must fulfill a laundry list of prophecies for the world to even stand a chance, and locking him in an ivory tower for his own safekeeping?

Aes Sedai being criminally stupid is not new news. Aes Sedai making stupid assumptions is very not news.

Corele seems to give a rather telling example of the fallacy under which most of the Aes Sedai seem to be operating near the end of Scents Unknown (Ch 44 in TGS):

"What does it matter? We're obviously going to succeed...We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions. They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying".

I have little doubt that most Aes Sedai have the same sort of erroneous assumptions about the Karaethon Cycle, which is why I think it's safe to assume that Elaida's plan likely involved keeping Rand forever shielded and just having a circle of 13 reds drag him to the rocks of Shayol Ghul, slit his throat, and then say something to the effect of- "We've won, right?"

Terez
01-24-2010, 03:31 PM
Egwene's not alone.
Yes she is. You act as if her thought must have come from somewhere, but I see no such implication.

Don't mind Neil; he doesn't generally wait until you piss him off to be rude. But I agree with him about Rand having done that on purpose; he was in Lews Therin mode at the time.

Davian93
01-24-2010, 04:53 PM
Corele seems to give a rather telling example of the fallacy under which most of the Aes Sedai seem to be operating near the end of Scents Unknown (Ch 44 in TGS):

"What does it matter? We're obviously going to succeed...We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions. They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying".

I have little doubt that most Aes Sedai have the same sort of erroneous assumptions about the Karaethon Cycle, which is why I think it's safe to assume that Elaida's plan likely involved keeping Rand forever shielded and just having a circle of 13 reds drag him to the rocks of Shayol Ghul, slit his throat, and then say something to the effect of- "We've won, right?"

Pretty much. The overwhelming continual stupidity of Aes Sedai (other than Moiraine and to a lesser extent Cadsuane) throughout the series gets old. The fact that Egwene has pretty much gotten to the point where she thinks their way is right is even worse.

"They're not dumb, they're just scared...blah blah blah" -Egwene.

Luckers
01-24-2010, 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aCoS, Chapter 9, A Pair of Silverpike
"What I did - because I had no choice, because I didn't know better - is called forcing, Nicola, and it is dangerous." She had not heard that term until Siuan apologized for doing it to her; that was one time Siuan truly had seemed repentant. "You know if you try to channel more of saidar than you’re ready to handle, you risk burning yourself out before you ever come close to your full strength. Best you learn to be patient. The sisters won’t let you be anything else until you are ready, anyway."

Now, it is quite possible that Egwene is skirting the edges of the 3 Oaths here, but on the other hand, this is quite a clear suggestion that being burned out is still considered a very credible threat. If Nicola didn't believe it, then she would not be deterred by the warning.

Although I would point out that they were discussing Nicola's desire for more strength. Burning out, and being healed at a reduced strength (as per Siuan and Leane) would indeed be a very credible threat to Nicola.

You think he was acting blindly with no thought to the consequences? Did you read the section I quoted for you?

Yes, I did. And yes, I do. Don't mistake me, he was definately angry. He definately acted against them. And he definately reguarded the results as him having stilled them afterwards. But yes, I believe you're hard pressed to say that he set out to do so. He crushes flows they were holding in fists of spirit, and as a result they were severed. Does he set out to nuetralize them? Certainly. Does he nuetralize them? Absolutely. Were those exact results specifically intended....


Here, have some more:

Read them. The first three are irrelevant. Dark. Ragged edge of sanity. Angry. As if I needed to be told any of those things.

The fourth quote was interesting, however.

An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erian he had stilled – he was not sure he had intended to do that

There. My point exactly. If Rand himself didn't know if he'd set out to still them, you can't.

He didn't do what women do to sever someone. But you doubt that women and men sever differently. Do you also doubt that someone who has memories of the Age of Legends, and fighting in the War of Power would know more about severing than Nynaeve?

I doubt they are different with a basis in the fact that the male shield and female shield methods are described the same, and that given the female method of stilling is a variation of their shield, we have a basis to suggest that the male method is similar. However, your point--"Do you also doubt that someone who has memories of the Age of Legends, and fighting in the War of Power would know more about severing than Nynaeve?"

Not really--Moghedian employs the same method.

Moghedien's axe of Spirit waxed and waned in sharpness, but that would not matter if the woman managed to drive it home; Nynaeve could not see any real difference in outcome between being stilled by the woman and merely--merely--being shielded and at her mercy. The thing brushed against the flow of Power from the Source into her, like a knife hovering over a chicken's stretched neck. The image was all too apt; she wished she had not thought of it.

[tSR: 54, Into the Palace]


Same knife-like weave being used by an Age of Legender. And very distinct from the one used by Rand.

You read a lot into a scene for someone ignoring the obvious implications of what I bolded. Crushing the flows is your interpretation. The flows however come from the Aes Sedai themselves. So he did more than crush the flows, he crushed them. And he did so ruthlessly.


So you agree with me that what he did has more in common with burning out than the knife-like severing of the female method of stilling?

Excellent, we can move forward.

Which is a bit strange because you are suggesting that because being in a state where you can sense the True Source can be healed, being in a state were you can not must also be able to be healed. There is no logic there. Not even a little.

I'm saying that because Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgaine may well have been in a state where they could not sense the True Source, and were healed, that we have evidence to suggest healing a burn out is possible.

It's not exactly a complicated argument. Here, I'll lay it out for you.

1. The method of being severed that leaves you with the ability to sense the True Source is a knife like surgical severing.

2. Rand crushed weaves they were maintaining (and perhaps, as you suggested, crushed their very ability itself). As a result they were severed.

3. This 'crushing' has more in common with the complete 'searing out of the ability' encountered in burn outs than the surgical cut employed by women to still.

4. Based on the similarity between what Rand did and what occurs when someone is burnt out, and the fact that Ronaille, Irgaine and Sashelle were successfully healed, we can suggest that burning out can similarily be healed.

Is this locked in stone? Of course not. The original poster asked if we had any evidence to suggest burning out could be healed, and I threw this out there simply as that--suggestive evidence.

Except drunken brawler Rand wasn't drunk, just emotionally haggard and very angry, and had spent the past two hours or so ranting about how he was going to push someone in front of a bus.

I wasn't speaking about Rand, I was speaking about language.

We would also call both victims "dead". Much like we call both victims "severed", because regardless of the path taken, the results are the exact same.

So? We're talking about the name we would give the path taken, not the result. Of course they were severed. This point is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
In effect what I am saying is just because Rand initiated it, doesn't mean its not an accident they ended up unable to touch the source.

And I'm saying that you can only come to that conclusion if you selectively ignore large parts of what happened.


Quote:
Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him


I'm content to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Egwene's not alone.

Yes she is. You act as if her thought must have come from somewhere, but I see no such implication.


And the point I made to support my belief that her thought must have come from somewhere? Egwene doesn't think 'the novices have nothing to worry about' she thinks that 'it was difficult to get the novices to hold back now they could be healed'.

If the novices are acting on this assumption that burning out can be healed then a) Egwene is not alone, and b) the Aes Sedai have not told them that that is a stupid thought, leading to c) the Aes Sedai are also acting under this belief.

Don't mind Neil; he doesn't generally wait until you piss him off to be rude. But I agree with him about Rand having done that on purpose; he was in Lews Therin mode at the time.

Lol, don't worry about me Terez. Ares sharpened his teeth on me in days gone past, and his bite is by far worse than Neil.

I don't really see the point in arguing the Lews Therin issue. It's definately possible, but this was all just a throw out point that I don't believe you can sustain that Rand intended to sever them specifically, and given Rand himself stated that he couldn't say if he did, my point is proven as far as I care for it to be. :)

Terez
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
And the point I made to support my belief that her thought must have come from somewhere? Egwene doesn't think 'the novices have nothing to worry about' she thinks that 'it was difficult to get the novices to hold back now they could be healed'.
There is no indication that the novices are in general being allowed to do any more than they ever have, so I doubt it has come up. It was brought up that novices shouldn't be doing such complex weaves as making cuendillar, literally right before Egwene has that thought, and the issue of burning out wasn't discussed. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason to believe that anyone is under this assumption except for Egwene.

I don't really see the point in arguing the Lews Therin issue. It's definately possible, but this was all just a throw out point that I don't believe you can sustain that Rand intended to sever them specifically
Neither can you state that he did not.

and given Rand himself stated that he couldn't say if he did, my point is proven as far as I care for it to be. :)
That shows a remarkable lack of objectivity on your part, especially considering how often Rand does things subconsciously, and the other flashing arrows in the scene pointing to Rand having done it purposefully. Of course he didn't think about doing it purposefully, but he didn't have to; there are several Lews Therin scenes in the series showing that much.

But you're right that there is really no point in discussing any of those nitpicks, since Aes Sedai know that stilled women can still sense the Source, while burned-out women cannot. Egwene seems to be as yet unaware of this distinction, but since it's a touchy subject for Aes Sedai (even after Nynaeve's miracle), it's not difficult to believe that it has never come up.

Luckers
01-24-2010, 09:32 PM
There is no indication that the novices are in general being allowed to do any more than they ever have, so I doubt it has come up. It was brought up that novices shouldn't be doing such complex weaves as making cuendillar, literally right before Egwene has that thought, and the issue of burning out wasn't discussed. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason to believe that anyone is under this assumption except for Egwene.

I'm not talking about being allowed to do more. Indeed, the significance is in that the Aes Sedai are having to work harder to KEEP them from doing more.

And you can dance around it all you want. Egwene states that the novices are pushing the boundaries more than before because they no longer had to fear burning themselves out. This is not Egwene dwelling on her own beliefs, but the beliefs of the novices.

And that the novices believe this means that no Aes Sedai has disabused them of it, which means the Aes Sedai also believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
I don't really see the point in arguing the Lews Therin issue. It's definately possible, but this was all just a throw out point that I don't believe you can sustain that Rand intended to sever them specifically

Neither can you state that he did not.

So? I only ever said that I thought you'd be hardpressed to say that did. And you are. Insofar as my position goes, I'm content.

That shows a remarkable lack of objectivity on your part

No, it's just me unwilling to let you back me into being the polar opposite of your position. I'm perfectly objective about doing so.

I'm not trying to bait you Terez. I'll not argue the point you want me to argue, but nor will I concede your point. Instead I'll just hold to my original stance. I know that's probably frustrating, and I'm sorry.

But you're right that there is really no point in discussing any of those nitpicks, since Aes Sedai know that stilled women can still sense the Source, while burned-out women cannot. Egwene seems to be as yet unaware of this distinction, but since it's a touchy subject for Aes Sedai (even after Nynaeve's miracle), it's not difficult to believe that it has never come up.

Especially since Ronaille, Irgaine and Sashelle were kept secluded from the other Aes Sedai amongst the Aiel. And that despite the knowledge of that destinction, there is still a solid dose of "'stilled' is done to you by a person" going on.

Neilbert
01-25-2010, 12:57 AM
So? We're talking about the name we would give the path taken, not the result. Of course they were severed. This point is irrelevant.

You seem to have glossed over the point. If a person is planning on pushing someone in front of a bus, it's not manslaughter, it's murder. If I talk about how I am going to push some jerk in front of a bus, and then I "accidentally" push that jerk in front of the bus, I will be convicted of murder. I was talking about the path taken too, guess you just missed that part, just like you missed large chunks of Dumai's Wells.

There. My point exactly. If Rand himself didn't know if he'd set out to still them, you can't.

Yes, you can "prove" anything with extremely selective quoting. It's nothing I haven't seen before and I am unimpressed. When you can't even quote the whole sentence it's pretty obvious your argument is... hard pressed.

An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erian he had stilled – he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him; Rand hoped it had been his own idea, however hasty – an instant, and he saw another shape stretched out on the ground beneath bits of the chest. In rose-colored coat and breeches.

He's not sure he had intended to do that, Lews Therin wanted to, and Rand hoped it had been his own idea. But the fact remains that stilling them was someone's idea, Rand's or Lews Therins, so it was intentional.

So? I only ever said that I thought you'd be hardpressed to say that did. And you are.

Says the guy who had to quote a section of a sentence to "prove" his point. You have absolutely no concept of who is hard pressed here.

Luckers
01-25-2010, 03:56 AM
Yes, you're right. I'm desperately scrambling to defend my point.

As such, can we perhaps get back to it? I'll try and word it to avoid the minutia that you find so problematic.

Irgaine, Sashelle and Ronaille

A bit of evidence for the idea that being burned out can be healed is in the fact that Irgaine, Sashelle and Ronaille were healed from what Rand did to them. Whilst Rand did it to them--perhaps intentionally, perhaps not--and thus would be termed to have 'stilled' them, what he did was not the knife-sharp weave described by Nynaeve [and employed by Moghedian, an Age of Legender].

Moghedien's axe of Spirit waxed and waned in sharpness, but that would not matter if the woman managed to drive it home; Nynaeve could not see any real difference in outcome between being stilled by the woman and merely--merely--being shielded and at her mercy. The thing brushed against the flow of Power from the Source into her, like a knife hovering over a chicken's stretched neck. The image was all too apt; she wished she had not thought of it.

[tSR: 54, Into the Palace]

Rather he crushed weaves they were holding [or their ability itself] in fists of spirit.

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of
Spirit.

[LoC: 55, Dumai's Wells]

So, to recap, Nynaeve's description of the female method of stilling or gentling a person was that it was a very sharp shield. It cut the point of connection neatly, even surgically. Whilst what Rand did in no way fits with that--he instead crushes them or their weaves. As such what he did seems to essentially be overstressing their abilities--placing too much presure on them or their weave resulting in their abilities being expunged.

The distinction that people mostly hold to be significant between stilling and burning out is that burn outs can't sense the source, whilst stilled people can. According to this line of reasoning people suggest that burns outs suffer a more complete, and thus less treatable version of being severed. However the problem with all this is that what we are talking about when we speak of the 'stilled' people who are still able to sense the source, we are talking of those who have been stilled by the knife-sharp weave Nynaeve described.

Proceeding from there...

The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

[tDR: Glossary]

Given that what Rand did to those three is functionally much closer to what occurs when a ter'angreal goes wrong (an external source applies too much presure, or applies presure in the wrong way, to the channelers ability, thus burning it out) than it does to the weave Aes Sedai use to still people, and given that Sashelle, Irgaine and Ronaille were all healed no problem, we do have the basis to suggest burning out can indeed be healed.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2010, 04:17 AM
I can't remember: do we have any other description of a man severing a woman, other than the one at Dumai's Wells?
After all, it might be that the technique for men is different than it is for women, just as the methods for putting out fires are different.

Luckers
01-25-2010, 04:34 AM
I can't remember: do we have any other description of a man severing a woman, other than the one at Dumai's Wells?
After all, it might be that the technique for men is different than it is for women, just as the methods for putting out fires are different.

No, we don't. We have a basis to suggest that the male and female weaves for stilling are the same in that the female method of stilling is a derivision of the female method of shielding, and that the male method of shielding is the same as the female--ergo suggesting the male method of stilling would be a similar derivision--but we do not know for sure.

But it's irrelevent. Even if this is the male version of stilling, it functionally has more in common with burning out than it does with the female method of stilling.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2010, 04:51 AM
Not necessarily. It may matter where precisely in the link to the OP the effect occurs. If burning happens in your own brain/channeling gland/whatever, while stilling happens just outside it, then that would be a significant difference.

Terez
01-25-2010, 05:27 AM
But it's irrelevent. Even if this is the male version of stilling, it functionally has more in common with burning out than it does with the female method of stilling.
That all depends on whether or not the person cut off from the Source can still sense it, I think. If being stilled always means that the action was deliberate and being burned out always means that the action was accidental, then obviously Rand did it intentionally, since any number of Aes Sedai clearly said that they were stilled. However, I think that, if there is a mutable part of the definition for the difference between stilling and burning out, then this is it, because whether or not you can sense the Source is most definitely not mutable. You can either sense it or you can't. In other words, it makes more sense for the different terms to be concretely attached to the concrete differences, and that the deliberate/accidental thing is just the way it happens to go most of the time (or maybe even all of the time).

But on top of that, there is the fact that there is good reason to believe, because 'Lews Therin' wanted to sever all of the Aes Sedai, that Rand did just that. In the context (including the butcher's yard in the next book), it's even more clear.

I imagine that burning out always happens because of a Power overload on the side of the channeler. This could happen by deliberately channeling too much, or accidentally, or by triggering a ter'angreal that causes you to flare up and burn yourself out. So it might well be impossible to sever yourself, and equally impossible for someone else to burn you out without a ter'angreal that causes your Power to flare (or something like that...Vandene seemed to be implying, for instance, that Aviendha could have burned everyone out by unweaving her gateway, but I rather think that stories about unweaving among Aes Sedai have already faded to myth at least somewhat).

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2010, 05:48 AM
Vandene seemed to be implying, for instance, that Aviendha could have burned everyone out by unweaving her gateway, but I rather think that stories about unweaving among Aes Sedai have already faded to myth at least somewhat).Well, it did seem to freak out Moridin a bit too, when he figured out what had been going on right in front of his eyes. So he too seems to have believed the stories of the dangers involved with unraveling.

Luckers
01-25-2010, 09:21 AM
Not necessarily. It may matter where precisely in the link to the OP the effect occurs. If burning happens in your own brain/channeling gland/whatever, while stilling happens just outside it, then that would be a significant difference.

Absolutely. I never suggested this was set in stone, in fact I think I was quite clear on the reverse.

That being said whilst there is still wriggle room of the type you are speaking, from the current stated realities what Rand did has by far more in common with burning out than with the female method of severing someone from the source.

But, again, my purpose here was asserting the suggestivity of that event in relation to question of burn outs being healed. I agree one might apply alternative explanations, I am merely offering a stream of thought to address the issue of burning out being healed.

Edit: I'm tired and that's not the best response I can offer, so I'll deal with the rest in the morning.

nameless
01-25-2010, 10:24 AM
Actually, the realities of what Rand did have absolutely nothing in common with burning out apart from the obvious fact that none of the subjects were able to channel anymore after it was over.

Sure, Nynaeve describes the stilling weave as a sharp instrument and Rand describes his weaves as blunt instruments, but that doesn't mean the resulting psychic injuries correspond to physical injuries caused by sharp weapons and blunt weapons. A crushed finger is far harder to reattach than one that was cleanly sliced but Flinn was able to heal those three just as successfully as Nynaeve healed Logain.

We've never seen burning out compared to any sort of physical weapon, be it sharp or blunt. The only thing it's ever been compared to is, well, burning.

In short, while you are correct in stating that Rand's severing weave is described differently than Nynaeve's you make a faulty assumption when you decide that because it's different from Nynaeve's stilling it must be similar to burning out.

(I apologize if this seems more argumentative than the discussion calls for. I've been up all night and can't really objectively judge how the tone will come across in my current state of sleep debt).

Terez
01-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Well, it did seem to freak out Moridin a bit too, when he figured out what had been going on right in front of his eyes. So he too seems to have believed the stories of the dangers involved with unraveling.
Oh, I don't doubt that there are real dangers - we saw one possible outcome, after all - I just don't think that it's all that clear that Vandene's particular fear was substantiated.

Neilbert
01-25-2010, 09:37 PM
what he did was not the knife-sharp weave described by Nynaeve [and employed by Moghedian, an Age of Legender].

And why do I care again? You are making two very large assumptions, that the male method of severing is identical to the female, and that there is only one method of severing.

So, to recap, Nynaeve's description of the female method of stilling or gentling a person was that it was a very sharp shield. It cut the point of connection neatly, even surgically.

So?

Whilst what Rand did in no way fits with that--he instead crushes them or their weaves. As such what he did seems to essentially be overstressing their abilities--placing too much presure on them or their weave resulting in their abilities being expunged.

He's not over stressing their abilities. It is impossible for someone else to over stress someone's abilities. If he crushed them with spirit, they were probably shielded as part of the process, and therefore weren't channeling anything.

However the problem with all this is that what we are talking about when we speak of the 'stilled' people who are still able to sense the source, we are talking of those who have been stilled by the knife-sharp weave Nynaeve described.

You say this as if it means anything. You are dealing with a sample size of six. One full half of which you dismiss out of hand.

Given that what Rand did to those three is functionally much closer to what occurs when a ter'angreal goes wrong (an external source applies too much presure, or applies presure in the wrong way, to the channelers ability, thus burning it out)

When a channeler burns themselves out through improper use of a ter'angreal, they are providing the power. The power is not coming from an external source.

You can not force someone to draw on enough power to harm themselves. This has been stated several times, and has never been disputed.

Also, I don't think you know what functionally means. What Rand did, even if it was what you said it was, was functionally identical to severing, not burning out.

Luckers
01-26-2010, 08:32 AM
Actually, the realities of what Rand did have absolutely nothing in common with burning out apart from the obvious fact that none of the subjects were able to channel anymore after it was over.

We've never seen burning out compared to any sort of physical weapon, be it sharp or blunt. The only thing it's ever been compared to is, well, burning.

In short, while you are correct in stating that Rand's severing weave is described differently than Nynaeve's you make a faulty assumption when you decide that because it's different from Nynaeve's stilling it must be similar to burning out.


You didn't address my correlation between the two, so I'm not sure if you saw it.

In the female method we have a slice. In what Rand did, and burning out (in the ter'angreal sense) what we have is a third party over-stressing a channeler. Rand crushed weaves the Aes Sedai were maintaining, ter'angreal misuse or overdraw from the Aes Sedai. Either way it was an external point placing stress on the ability that destroyed it, as opposed to someone specifically cutting the connection.



And why do I care again? You are making two very large assumptions, that the male method of severing is identical to the female, and that there is only one method of severing.

I've offered reasoning for my position that the male and female methods of severing are the same. The female method of stilling is an extension of the female shield. The male shield is the same as the female shield. By sequence we have the basis to suggest the male method of stilling is thereby the same as the female.

And I do not make the assumption that there is only one method of severing. Firstly, the term severing, applies to any form of being cut off from the source. Burning out, stilling, gentling. All were called severing in the Age of Legends. That quite obviously infers multiple methods. Secondly, I have allowed for what Rand did to be a form of stilling. It doesn't make a spot of difference to my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
So, to recap, Nynaeve's description of the female method of stilling or gentling a person was that it was a very sharp shield. It cut the point of connection neatly, even surgically.

So?


So it was different from what Rand did, which was stated directly after that comment. Patience is a virtue my friend--but virtuosity aside it at the very least stops you making a prat of yourself.

To continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Whilst what Rand did in no way fits with that--he instead crushes them or their weaves. As such what he did seems to essentially be overstressing their abilities--placing too much presure on them or their weave resulting in their abilities being expunged.

He's not over stressing their abilities. It is impossible for someone else to over stress someone's abilities. If he crushed them with spirit, they were probably shielded as part of the process, and therefore weren't channeling anything

You made that up. Completely, and utterly.

I can see you twisting, and ready to respond, so lets be productive about it. Here are the points you need to prove.

1. He's not over stressing their abilities.

2. It is impossible for someone else to over stress someone's abilities.

3. They were shielded in the process.

I require specific quotes, mind you. You'd do best to ignore this, since I know it's impossible to prove the above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
However the problem with all this is that what we are talking about when we speak of the 'stilled' people who are still able to sense the source, we are talking of those who have been stilled by the knife-sharp weave Nynaeve described.

You say this as if it means anything. You are dealing with a sample size of six. One full half of which you dismiss out of hand.

What? That doesn't even make sense. It is significant that the distinction of 'sensing the source' only has been noted with women severed by Aes Sedai utilizing the knife-like weave.

And I don't dismiss Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgaine. In fact I reguard them as very significant. Did you have evidence that they still sense the Source?


When a channeler burns themselves out through improper use of a ter'angreal, they are providing the power. The power is not coming from an external source.


Well you don't actually know that--ter'angreal do draw on the True Source seperate of what's being channeled through them.

But beyond that, I was not saying the power came from an external source, I said that an external source overstressed their ability. The ter'angreal using their power in the wrong way, or Rand crushing weaves they were mainting in fists of spirit.

You can not force someone to draw on enough power to harm themselves. This has been stated several times, and has never been disputed.

Actually, what was stated is that when linked the person guiding the flows cannot force someone to draw too much. It is much like the angreal buffer. This does not apply to someone over-stressing someone elses weave.

Also, I don't think you know what functionally means. What Rand did, even if it was what you said it was, was functionally identical to severing, not burning out.

Lol. Ok, firstly, burning out is severing. Severing is an Age of Legends term for anything that leaves you unable to channel.

Secondly, functionality is the specifics of how a thing functions. What Rand did functioned much like how burning out functions. A third party put preasure on the ability of a woman who can channel, and their ability was expunged as a result. Compared to the surgical function of stilling, yes, what Rand did had much more in common with burning out than stilling. Functionally speaking, of course.

Morsker
01-26-2010, 09:53 AM
When I read that scene at the end of Lord of Chaos, I just assumed it was a "spacial" or visualization issue. A shield at once covers a channeler's whole body, but also covers only a single point. Normally when channeling, you can see the target, so it's visualized as sliding that extra-sharp shield between them and the source. But Rand was trapped in a box and couldn't see anything, except with some sixth sense for those three soft points in the shield. He visualized it as crushing the points in fists of spirit, but his perceptions are so radically different in this case that we don't know it wasn't exactly the same thing as severing.

Neilbert
01-26-2010, 11:45 AM
You didn't address my correlation between the two, so I'm not sure if you saw it.

Saw it, addressed it, but by all means keep repeating yourself.

I've offered reasoning for my position that the male and female methods of severing are the same.

It's still an assumption.

And I do not make the assumption that there is only one method of severing. Firstly, the term severing, applies to any form of being cut off from the source. Burning out, stilling, gentling. All were called severing in the Age of Legends.

Please provide a citation that AOLers referred to being burnt out as severing ... .

It doesn't make a spot of difference to my point.

Your point is completely lacking in logic. The fact that someone can Heal someone who can sense the source has absolutely no bearing on what can be done to someone who can't.


So it was different from what Rand did, which was stated directly after that comment.

And why is this relevant? Most things Rand does are different from how Nynaeve does them.

Patience is a virtue my friend--but virtuosity aside it at the very least stops you making a prat of yourself.

I'm not your friend.

You made that up. Completely, and utterly.

Hi Luckers, I'm Neilbert.

I can see you twisting, and ready to respond, so lets be productive about it. Here are the points you need to prove.

1. He's not over stressing their abilities.

See two.

2. It is impossible for someone else to over stress someone's abilities.

See any discussion of linking ever. Also a'dam.

3. They were shielded in the process.

note where I said probably. Then go to the WoT database where RJ describes what a shield is and how it is placed.

I require specific quotes, mind you. You'd do best to ignore this, since I know it's impossible to prove the above.

I'm not providing quotes for Luckers.

And I don't dismiss Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgaine. In fact I reguard them as very significant. Did you have evidence that they still sense the Source?

but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand.

RJ said they got severed. We've been told that severing is the gender neutral term for stilling and gentling.

Actually, what was stated is that when linked the person guiding the flows cannot force someone to draw too much. It is much like the angreal buffer. This does not apply to someone over-stressing someone elses weave.

I really can't comment with evidence about something you made up, so stop asking for it. If you aren't talking about the kind of over-stressing that is known to burn people out, and are talking about something that only exists in your head, there's really nothing to say on the matter.

Lol. Ok, firstly, burning out is severing. Severing is an Age of Legends term for anything that leaves you unable to channel.

Citation needed, because this is bullshit. Severing has only ever been described as stilling/gentling.

Secondly, functionality is the specifics of how a thing functions. What Rand did functioned much like how burning out functions.

Tam deleted my classy line demonstrating this, but I feel it still should be noted that this is the opposite of true. To say something is functionally the same as something else is to say the end results are the same, while the specifics of how those end results are achieved can be different.

Think math. (x+6)/3 is functionally the same as x/3+2, because they get to the same result through different methods.

Ieyasu
01-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Hi Luckers, I'm Neilbert


I loled.

Terez
01-26-2010, 05:45 PM
I loled.
I did too. I was sorry to see that line go, lol.

Tamyrlin
01-26-2010, 05:48 PM
Neil - stop getting so worked up.

"The severing of a man from the True Source is now known as gentling. He can still sense the power, but is unable to touch saidin in any way."When someone is Severed, they can still sense the power. When someone burns out, they can no longer sense the power.

Here is the more complete explanation in the BWB

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
For women, the intentional removal of the ability to channel is called stilling. If the ability is lost by accident the process is called being burned out, though the term stilling is sometimes used for this also, a deplorable loss of precision in speech since the Old Tongue fell out of use. In any case, the results of being stilled or burned out are much the same. The stilled women, like the man who has been gentled, is cut off from the True Source, always tantalized by the sense of saidar, yet unable to touch or channel it. The women who are burned out can neither channel nor sense the power. Stilling is usually done as punishment for a crime, while burnout occurs through overload or misuse of the power, or is the result of losing to an attack by a greater power while channeling. It is assumed that men are susceptible to burnout as well. It stands to reason that if someone cannot sense the power, the damage done is greater than those that can still sense the power - it's one thing to reconnect the "nerves" of a severed "arm", and it's completely another to recreate "nerves" that were completely destroyed.

FelixPax
01-26-2010, 07:04 PM
When a channeler burns themselves out through improper use of a ter'angreal, they are providing the power. The power is not coming from an external source.

That has not be proven, as some ter'angreal themselves provide the power. For example when Birgitte used the Twisted Ring to find Nynaneve in the Dream World, Birgitte was not a non-channeler...and yet we have been told Dreaming using the Power to operate?

How Birgitte and the Twisted Ring example squares with the counter-example of the non-channeling two Aiel Dreamwalkers, is unanswered up to his point in the series. Is there another way to enter the 3rd Constant, without the use of Spirit? Does Perrin's Wolf Dreaming use Spirit or not? Can a Wolf Dream operate within a Stedding or not? At least the Aiel Dreamwalker's cannot enter a Stedding while Dreaming, but could Perrin and the wolves? Yes, Perrin's Wolf Dream is different and did operate in Hawkwing's would-be capital city's Stedding (tEoW, Ch.30).

There is another example of Faile walking into a room in Tear, when the the Hedgehog ter'angreal triggered a wave of Spirit to push her into the Dream World as well. So some ter'angreal could burn out a channeler only by getting too close to them in all likihood, just as Faile got too close to the Hedgehog ter'angreal. The source of the Power came from the item in question, not a person whether a channeler or a non-channeler.


Martine Janata very likely was setup by someone in the White Tower, when she was getting too close to hidden knowledge that only the Black Tower held, "Dreaming". That's my best guess for now. After all an Amyrlin Seat, was setup this very same way to die by Ishamael, too.

One scene I was looking forward too, in tGS when we all first learned that Verin met Mat, was the meeting between the one time Martine Janata aka Setalle Anan and Verin. Setalle would of surely of followed Teslyn, Joline, Edesina when they met Verin. I really do wonder what occurred off scene just then.

Neilbert
01-26-2010, 09:24 PM
That has not be proven, as some ter'angreal themselves provide the power. For example when Birgitte used the Twisted Ring to find Nynaneve in the Dream World, Birgitte was not a non-channeler...and yet we have been told Dreaming using the Power to operate?

You are right, but you picked the worst possible example to use, because non-channelers can enter TAR unaided.

There is another example of Faile walking into a room in Tear, when the the Hedgehog ter'angreal triggered a wave of Spirit to push her into the Dream World as well.

A trap set by Black Ajah is another horrible example. Dude, just say Bowl of the Winds. You have this spectacular ability to come to be right, yet horribly wrong at the same time.

Martine Janata very likely was setup by someone in the White Tower, when she was getting too close to hidden knowledge that only the Black Tower held, "Dreaming"

Shine on you crazy diamond you.

Terez
01-26-2010, 09:46 PM
Lol, this is why I have Felix on ignore. I suppose he meant Black Ajah rather than Black Tower?

Luckers
01-28-2010, 08:00 AM
Firstly, I'll concede the severing issue straight up. Mea culpa. Thanks Tam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
You didn't address my correlation between the two, so I'm not sure if you saw it.

Saw it, addressed it, but by all means keep repeating yourself.

Well aside from the fact that that wasn't directed at you, there is the fact that you didn't address it, you stated (incorrectly) that it was an assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
I've offered reasoning for my position that the male and female methods of severing are the same.

It's still an assumption.

No, it's a theory. An assumption is to presume something to be true without any reason to do so. A theory is when you suggest something might be true, based on evidence.

I suggest that the male method for stilling is the same as the female. I base this on the fact that the male method of shielding is the same as the female method, and the fact that the female method of stilling as an alteration of their shielding method.

I neither said it was true, nor lacked backing. Feel free to disagree with it, just don't pull this pointless semanticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
It doesn't make a spot of difference to my point.

Your point is completely lacking in logic. The fact that someone can Heal someone who can sense the source has absolutely no bearing on what can be done to someone who can't.


That is not and has never been my point. It in fact has no relation to my point. As I've explained to you several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
So it was different from what Rand did, which was stated directly after that comment.

And why is this relevant? Most things Rand does are different from how Nynaeve does them.

Re-read my post. I comment in some detail as to why I reguard it to be relevant. Disagree if you wish, but this pointless prevarication achieves nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Patience is a virtue my friend--but virtuosity aside it at the very least stops you making a prat of yourself.

I'm not your friend.

No!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
You made that up. Completely, and utterly.

Hi Luckers, I'm Neilbert.


Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise Neilbert was synonomous with 'making things up'.

I'll bear that in mind from now on.

Incidentally I'm Luckers. Amongst other things that's synonomous with 'sexy'. Don't know if it's relevant, but I've always been a bit of a 'you show me yours...' kind of guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
I can see you twisting, and ready to respond, so lets be productive about it. Here are the points you need to prove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
1. He's not over stressing their abilities.

See two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
2. It is impossible for someone else to over stress someone's abilities.

See any discussion of linking ever. Also a'dam.


Yup. Relevance zilch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Secondly, functionality is the specifics of how a thing functions. What Rand did functioned much like how burning out functions.


Tam deleted my classy line demonstrating this, but I feel it still should be noted that this is the opposite of true. To say something is functionally the same as something else is to say the end results are the same, while the specifics of how those end results are achieved can be different

Pity I didn't say they were functionally the same. Instead I said the functionality was the same. As in the specific state of the function of what they did. Honestly Neilbert, even when you respond directly you avoid actually addressing the material, and go instead for the semantics. It's pointless. And tiring.

I'm pretty much done here. All I'm doing is repeating myself to a contentious asshat, and that bores me. Will hopefully come back and play at a later date, or see some of you over at Dragonmount. In the short though I'm working on something with Maria Simons that I hope all the boards will find fun. If it all works out, I'll post a thread here when it goes up.

Neilbert
01-28-2010, 09:47 PM
Well aside from the fact that that wasn't directed at you, there is the fact that you didn't address it, you stated (incorrectly) that it was an assumption.

What is there to address?

No, it's a theory. An assumption is to presume something to be true without any reason to do so. A theory is when you suggest something might be true, based on evidence.

Except that there's no evidence that Men and Women Sever in the same way. In fact, theres evidence that they don't.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise Neilbert was synonomous with 'making things up'.

You are really stupid if you can't figure out that that was an edit by Tam.

Incidentally I'm Luckers. Amongst other things that's synonomous with 'sexy'. Don't know if it's relevant, but I've always been a bit of a 'you show me yours...' kind of guy.

... really really stupid.

Pity I didn't say they were functionally the same. Instead I said the functionality was the same.

You know, if you are going to lie about what you said you should really go back and edit the post in which you said it.

Given that what Rand did to those three is functionally much closer to what occurs when a ter'angreal goes wrong (an external source applies too much presure, or applies presure in the wrong way, to the channelers ability, thus burning it out) than it does to the weave Aes Sedai use to still people, and given that Sashelle, Irgaine and Ronaille were all healed no problem, we do have the basis to suggest burning out can indeed be healed.

Even if this is the male version of stilling, it functionally has more in common with burning out than it does with the female method of stilling.

Really, what's the point in lying about what you said when I can just go back and read the original words?

Honestly Neilbert, even when you respond directly you avoid actually addressing the material, and go instead for the semantics.

What material? That Severing and Burning Out are the same thing? That functionally similar relates to the mechanism not the results? Your entire argument is built on a foundation of misinterpretation and wishful thinking.

I'm pretty much done here. All I'm doing is repeating myself to a contentious asshat, and that bores me.

Oh noes! My theory isn't blindly accepted so I'm going to cry and run away!

Terez
01-28-2010, 09:54 PM
Incidentally I'm Luckers. Amongst other things that's synonomous with 'sexy'. Don't know if it's relevant, but I've always been a bit of a 'you show me yours...' kind of guy.
My pics are up....where are yours? :D

Luckers
01-29-2010, 01:26 AM
Mine are too hot for the internet. That's why my name is synonomous with sexy.

Terez
01-29-2010, 01:56 AM
You should know better than that. We require evidence!

Luckers
01-30-2010, 05:43 AM
But it would blind you. Really I am just being conciderate.

Terez
01-30-2010, 05:02 PM
LOL...I believe you. ;)

Neilbert
01-31-2010, 03:43 AM
If he's got something that could blind you he should probably go see a doctor.

Or a surgeon...

NaeffOfDreams
02-01-2010, 12:16 PM
Some things said a few pages back about scar tissue and nerves got me thinking.

Jordan always used flame and fire imagery to describe channellers who were burned out. If the metaphor holds true, this would mean cauterization and "spiritual scar tissue", as someone above put it.

Scar tissue acts as an electrical resistor to nerve impulses. This means it takes a higher level of stimulus to register through scar tissue. Any nerve impulses travelling across said tissue will also be weakened similarly to certain metals having higher electrical conductivity than others. (Jordan the physicist at work here?)

If Lanfear was indeed burned out at some point during her passage into the Finn's Realms and later Healed by a man (Moridin?), the scar tissue left behind from being burned out would act as a resistor to saidar, so that even though she's been restored to full strength, Power is lost on its way into her, so she can never again hold as much as she once did.

GonzoTheGreat
02-01-2010, 12:23 PM
Very neat idea. Of course, as far as we know, no man at the time could Heal stilling or burning out, but if we discount that detail, then it might actually be a good explanation.

alleluia_cone
03-01-2010, 12:36 AM
Maybe in reduction I have oversimplified matters, but isn't the fact that Brandon was even confused about this topic suggestive that Lanfear was stilled/burned out and subsequently healed? That is, Brandon had consciously or not, analogized the comparative strength level between Cyndane and Lanfear as representative of the gap between current Siuan Sanche and former Siuan Sanche in regard to strength in the power. All this assuming that Cyndane is Lanfear and what not.

Terez
03-01-2010, 01:19 AM
Maybe in reduction I have oversimplified matters, but isn't the fact that Brandon was even confused about this topic suggestive that Lanfear was stilled/burned out and subsequently healed?
This was discussed on page one as the most obvious explanation. But this is Theoryland, so we have to consider alternatives, just to cover all our bases. In the end, most of us will probably still go with the obvious explanation, but that doesn't mean we're right.

alleluia_cone
03-01-2010, 03:36 AM
This was discussed on page one as the most obvious explanation. But this is Theoryland, so we have to consider alternatives, just to cover all our bases. In the end, most of us will probably still go with the obvious explanation, but that doesn't mean we're right.

Is it the current assumption that Lanfear was healed by a male channeler (or at least fully healed in some other fashion) and that any difference in power between her former and current self is simply a case of her missing angreal/sa'angreal?

This is the picture I get from perusing the forums, although, it really doesn't explain why there would be so much confusion on Brandon's part even after going back to the notes. That he actually had to be convinced about the relative power difference is strange in that sense, if the explanation was so simple.

Terez
03-01-2010, 01:38 PM
The assumption is that she was Healed by a woman, which would explain the strength loss.