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Terez
01-15-2010, 01:15 PM
I am beginning to think that Perrin camped underneath the statue of the sword precisely because it was distinctive, and he knew that Rand would see it and recognize it. In his first chapter of The Gathering Storm, he thought of Rand's need for him, and of course, he saw Rand when he thought of him:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 10 - Leaving Malden

He was glad to have Faile back. He rejoiced. And yet, now what was there for him? These blasted men saw him as their leader. Some even thought of him as their king! He'd never asked for that. He'd had them put away the banners every time they put them out, up until Faile had persuaded him that using them would be an advantage. He still didn't believe that the wolfhead banner belonged there, flapping insolently above his camp.

But could he take it down? The men did look to it. He could smell pride on them every time they passed it. He couldn't turn them away. Rand would need their aid—he'd need everyone's aid—at the Last Battle.

The Last Battle. Could a man like him, a man who didn't want to be in charge, lead these forces to the most important moment in their lives?

The colors swirled, showing him Rand, sitting in what appeared to be a stone Tairen home. Perrin's old friend had a dark cast to his expression, like a man troubled by weighty thoughts. Even sitting like that, Rand looked regal. He was what a king was supposed to be, with that rich red coat, that noble bearing. Perrin was just a blacksmith.

He sighed, shaking his head and dispelling the image. He needed to seek out Rand. He could feel something tugging at him, pulling him.

Rand needed him. That had to be his focus now.

In his next chapter, Perrin's dilemma is boiled down:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 17 - Questions of Control

"Here's the thing, my Lord." Grady rubbed his chin again, surveying the camp. The various contingents—Mayeners, Alliandre's guard, the Two Rivers men, the Aiel, the refugees from various cities—all camped separately, in their own rings. "There are some hundred thousand people who need to get home. The ones that will leave, anyway. Many say they feel safer here, with you."

"They can give over wanting that," Perrin said. "They belong with their families."

"And the ones whose families are in Seanchan lands?" Grady shrugged. "Before the invaders came, many of these people would be happy to return. But now . . . Well, they keep talking about staying where there's food and protection."

"We can still send the ones who want to go," Perrin said. "We'll travel lighter without them."

Grady shook his head. "That's the thing, my Lord. Your man, Balwer, he gave us a count. I can make a gateway big enough for about two men to walk through at once. If you figure them taking one second to go through . . . Well, it would take hours and hours to send them all. I don't know the number, but he claimed it would be days' worth of work. And he said that his estimates were probably too optimistic. My Lord, I could barely keep a gateway open an hour, with how tired I am."

Perrin gritted his teeth. He'd have to get those numbers from Balwer himself, but he had a sinking feeling that Balwer would be right.

"We'll keep marching, then," Perrin said. "Moving north. Each day, we'll have you and Neald make gateways and return some of the people to their homes. But don't tire yourselves."

Grady nodded, eyes hollow from fatigue. Perhaps it would be best to wait a few more days before starting the process. Perrin nodded a dismissal to the Dedicated, and Grady jogged back down into camp. Perrin remained on the hillside, inspecting the various sections of the camp as the people prepared for the evening meal. The wagons sat at the center of the camp, laden with food that—he feared—would run out before he could reach Andor. Or should he go around to Cairhien? That was where he had last seen Rand, though his visions of the man made it seem he wasn't in either country. He doubted the Queen of Andor would welcome him with open arms, after the rumors about him and that blasted Red Eagle banner.

In Perrin's next chapter, there is a Faile point of view in the middle of the chapter, between Perrin's wolf-dreaming episodes. Faile says she has a plan to get Perrin to reveal his secrets:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 21 - Embers and Ash

They were a week out of Malden. The refugees had made camp—or, well, camps—near a waterway that led straight to the Jehannah Road, which was only a short distance away.

Things had gone smoothly these last few days, though Perrin had judged the Asha'man too tired still to make gateways. She had spent the evening with her husband, reminding him of several important reasons why he'd married her in the first place. He'd certainly been enthusiastic, though there was that odd edge to his eyes. Not a dangerous edge, just a sorrowful one. He had grown haunted while they were apart. She could understand that. She had a few ghosts of her own. One could not expect everything to remain the same, and she could tell that he still loved her—loved her fiercely. That was enough, and so she didn't worry on it further.

But she was planning an argument that would pull his secrets from him. She would wait a few more days for that. It was good to remind a husband that one would not sit content with everything he did, but it wouldn't do to make him think she was unappreciative to have him back.

...

"Masema doesn't care about possessions," Perrin mumbled quietly, eyes still closed. "Though maybe he would have taken them to rebuild. I guess he might have run off, though it's strange that nobody knows where or how."

"He probably slipped away during the confusion after the battle."

"Probably," Perrin agreed. "I wonder . . ." He yawned. "I wonder what Rand will say. Masema was the point of this whole trip. I was to fetch him and bring him back, and I guess I've failed."

"You destroyed the men who were murdering and robbing in the Dragon's name," Faile said, "and you cut out the heart of the Shaido leadership, not to mention all you've learned about the Seanchan. I think the Dragon will find that what you've accomplished here far outweighs not bringing Masema back."

"Maybe you're right," Perrin mumbled sleepily. "Blasted colors. . . . I don't want to watch you sleeping, Rand. What happened to your hand? Light-blinded fool, take better care of yourself. . . . You're all we have. . . . Last Hunt coming. . . ."

She could barely make out that last part. Why was he talking about Rand's hand going hunting? Was he actually falling asleep this time?
Right after this, Faile does the ritual with the others who were captives with her, and it is mentioned that Sulin is still with them (Lacile has gone to the bed of Sulin's gai'shain, Niagen, one of the Brotherless).

We assumed that the mention of Sulin with Rand was a mistake, but it turns out that she was supposed to be there. Yet Rand didn't seem to have personally questioned her about Perrin, as he tells Nynaeve later that he knows nothing of what Perrin has been up to; he has only seen the statue under which he was camped (and this is after Sulin was seen with Rand at the balefiring of Graendal's palace). Cadsuane asked Nynaeve to find Perrin in the same chapter as the balefiring of Graendal (it was immediately after that Nynaeve went to find Cadsuane, and gained entry by saying that Rand had just balefired a palace full of people).

So, this must be what happened:

Either Faile got Perrin's secrets out of him, or he came up with the idea of camping under the distinctive statue so that Rand could find them. They also sent Sulin to rejoin the Maidens with Rand in Arad Doman, and though Sulin knew roughly where they were, she did not know where Perrin was, not closely enough for him to be found with gateways (Sulin was apparently sent out before they made camp under the statue). Sulin might have been warned against approaching Rand directly concerning Perrin, because of Rand's changes since the Semirhage incident, and his tendency to be overly suspicious.

During this time, Perrin is presumably taking the time to gate out refugees. In the process, Galad and his Whitecloaks show up, and this might have actually been an impetus for camping under the statue as a shout-out to Rand, since Galad and his troupe are itching to fight some Seanchan and some Last Battle, so finding Rand would be a good idea for them. Perrin probably did it in this way because Galad's arrival complicated the preexisting reluctance to enter the borders of Andor, and with all the jumping around that Rand is doing, he is almost impossible to track down. So Perrin decided to make it easy for Rand to track him down.

Sulin might not have been the only one sent out to try to find Rand; he might have sent people to Andor and Cairhien as well. Cadsuane's fetching of Tam certainly complicates the issue, until Rand manages to apologize for trying to kill Tam in the Stone.

It's all fairly academic in retrospect, but it is a nice tie back to the chapter where Rand sent Perrin away in The Path of Daggers, 'To Be Alone'. This was at the time when Rand was sinking into madness fast, probably worse than he has ever been, before The Gathering Storm, and he was sending all of his friends away (including Lews Therin). Now that his long and arduous task is accomplished, Perrin is sending the shout-out to Rand, and Rand is ignoring him.

The strangest thing is that Rand did not question Sulin. He knows she was with Perrin, and he should have wondered why she returned, or at least asked her what Perrin had been up to all this time.

Ishara
01-15-2010, 01:24 PM
Um, I'm havin a hard time kepping things in order - I'm not gonna lie. I feel like it would be easier to describe/ envision with the clandar dates...but that'sneither here nor there.

The thing that popped out at me was that I thought that Perrin's secrets were related to the shadow in his eyes (aka his belief that Faile slept with an Aiel during her captivity). In fact, I seem to remember him blurting out that if she had happened to do so he would have been okay with it and she snappinghis nose off before kissing him - the argument she was planning? I don't know.

I never thought that the secrets were in relation to Rand or his mumbling...

Terez
01-15-2010, 02:26 PM
Um, I'm havin a hard time kepping things in order - I'm not gonna lie. I feel like it would be easier to describe/ envision with the clandar dates...but that'sneither here nor there.
I'll try to help, using the Chronology, which goes by days of the series, and references go like (book#.chapter#). Most of the dates from book 12 are approximations, but they are in the proper order:

Day 748 - Rand captures Semirhage (11.27; 12.P)

Day 749 - Perrin defeats the Shaido, Masema is killed (11.28-30; 12.P)

Day 750 - Perrin organizes his troops and refugees to leave Malden (12.9)

Day 755 - Perrin is still traveling north. (12.17)

Day 760 - Perrin is close to the Jehannah Road now. Faile does her ritual with the other ladies, and Sulin is still with Perrin. (12.21)

Day 763 - Rand establishes himself at Lord Tellan's manor in Arad Doman. (12.1)

Day 773 - Rand finds Ituralde. (12.10)

Day 779 - Rand kills Semirhage, exiles Cadsuane (12.22-23)

Day 784 - Rand sees Perrin under the statue with Galad. (12.31)

Day 790 - Sulin is seen with Rand; Cadsuane tells Nynaeve to find Perrin. (12.37)

Day 801 - Rand tells Nynaeve where to find Perrin, who is still camping under the statue. Later that day she returns with Tam, and Rand tries to kill him. (12.44, 47-48)

Day 802 - Rand goes to Dragonmount. (12.49-50)

The thing that popped out at me was that I thought that Perrin's secrets were related to the shadow in his eyes (aka his belief that Faile slept with an Aiel during her captivity).
That is what she believed was weighing on him, but in truth it wasn't; we know from Perrin's thoughts that he has come to peace with the idea that it might have happened. His real troubles have to do with the wolf dream, his purpose (he feels empty now that he has freed Faile), and Rand.

Ishara
01-15-2010, 02:47 PM
Things are so much clearer! Thanks for the extra work T.

I have to admit though, that I don't think I grasped just how long Perrin hung out under that statue! The backtracking of the timeline to address the meeting with Galad is one of the parts I'm looking forwrd to the most!

So, how do we thing that Sulin got back to Rand? Did Grady gate her when he was as exhausted as he was - I kind of doubt it, since Perrin's first priority was to help the refugees and sending them to Arad Doman would not have been a feasible option. So who else do we have to send Sulin back?

Presumably between 760 and 790 Sulin could have made the trek herself though...but how would she have known where he was?

Terez
01-15-2010, 03:00 PM
Perrin's priorities might have shifted since we last heard from him, especially considering that many of the refugees wanted to stay with him.

WinespringBrother
01-15-2010, 05:19 PM
I'll try to help, using the Chronology, which goes by days of the series, and references go like (book#.chapter#). Most of the dates from book 12 are approximations, but they are in the proper order:

Day 748 - Rand captures Semirhage (11.27; 12.P)

Day 749 - Perrin defeats the Shaido, Masema is killed (11.28-30; 12.P)

Day 750 - Perrin organizes his troops and refugees to leave Malden (12.9)

Day 755 - Perrin is still traveling north. (12.17)

Day 760 - Perrin is close to the Jehannah Road now. Faile does her ritual with the other ladies, and Sulin is still with Perrin. (12.21)

Day 763 - Rand establishes himself at Lord Tellan's manor in Arad Doman. (12.1)

Day 773 - Rand finds Ituralde. (12.10)

Day 779 - Rand kills Semirhage, exiles Cadsuane (12.22-23)

Day 784 - Rand sees Perrin under the statue with Galad. (12.31)

Day 790 - Sulin is seen with Rand; Cadsuane tells Nynaeve to find Perrin. (12.37)

Day 801 - Rand tells Nynaeve where to find Perrin, who is still camping under the statue. Later that day she returns with Tam, and Rand tries to kill him. (12.44, 47-48)

Day 802 - Rand goes to Dragonmount. (12.49-50)


That is what she believed was weighing on him, but in truth it wasn't; we know from Perrin's thoughts that he has come to peace with the idea that it might have happened. His real troubles have to do with the wolf dream, his purpose (he feels empty now that he has freed Faile), and Rand.

The Gathering Storm, Chapter 31 (pg 477), day 784:

"Shame or toh," Cadsuane said, "it will all be irrelevant soon. But I have a plan. Will you help me?"

So, she thinks of her plan 6 days before we see Sulin on screen.

The Gathering Storm, Chapter 31 (pg 486), day 784:

The colors swirled before his eyes, revealing an image of Perrin standing by a tent with Galad. Why was Perrin with Galad of all people? And when had Elayne's half-brother joined the Whitecloaks? The colors changed to Mat, riding through the streets of a familiar city. Caemlyn? Thom was there, with him.


There is no mention of a Sword statue. Is there a later quote that mentions that Perrin did not move in the time between this vision and the one in chapter 47? Just because he was by a tent in chapter 31 doesn't mean he was necessarily fixed in place for almost 2 weeks (for example, on pg 280, they set camp while clearly still marching through Altara).

The reason I raise this point is that we know that Sulin (and likely Edarra and the Wise Ones) had left Perrin by the time Rand had the vision of Perrin by the statue. That is likely why Cadsuane needed help locating Perrin and Tam, since Amys could otherwise have easily located them through the Wise Ones' dreams, and therefore wouldn't have needed Nynaeve to interrogate Rand and possibly ruin Cadsuane's plot by mistake (which Tam eventually ended up doing LOL).

FelixPax
01-15-2010, 06:22 PM
We assumed that the mention of Sulin with Rand was a mistake, but it turns out that she was supposed to be there.

I did not assume it was an error, that Sulin was with Rand. Although I do think it was a very poorly done setup scene, when Sulin pops in next to Rand in the balefiring of Graendal's 'palace of pleasure'. :rolleyes:


See the thing is, Sulin learned who Rand al'Thor father was, from Bode Cauthon in a scene with Larine, many more Two Rivers young women, Bael, Sulin, Tomas, Verin, Alanna, Bashere:

Flinging open the door, Rand stopped. He had forgotten the Two Rivers girls. Some were talking to the Maidens, some were just studying them and whispering over their tea. Bode and a handful of the Emond’s Fielders were questioning Bashere, who had a pewter mug in his fist and one foot up on a bench. They looked half-entertained, half-aghast. The door banging open whipped their heads around.
“Rand,” Bode exclaimed, “this man is saying awful things about you.”
“He says you’re the Dragon Reborn,” Larine spluttered. The girls in the rest of the room apparently had not heard; they gasped.
“I am,” Rand said wearily.
Larine sniffed and folded her arms beneath her breasts. “As soon as I saw that coat I knew you had gotten a big head, running off with an Aes Sedai the way you did. I knew it before you talked so disrespectfully to Alanna Sedai and Verin Sedai. But I didn’t know you had become a stone blind jack-fool.”
Bode’s laugh was more appalled than amused. “You shouldn’t say such a thing even as a joke, Rand. Tam raised you better than that. You’re Rand al’Thor. Now stop this foolishness.”
Rand al’Thor. That was his name, but he hardly knew who he was. Tam al’Thor had raised him, but his father had been an Aiel chief, now long dead. His mother had been a Maiden, but not Aiel. That was as much as he really knew of who he was.
Saidin still filled him. Gently he wrapped Bode and Larine in flows of Air and lifted them until their shoes dangled a foot above the floor. “I am the Dragon Reborn. Denying won’t change it. Wishing won’t change it. I’m not the man you knew back in Emond’s Field. Do you understand now? Do you?” He realized he was shouting and clamped his mouth shut. His stomach was lead, and he was trembling. Why had Alanna done what she did? What Aes Sedai scheme was hatching behind that pretty face? Trust none of them, Moiraine had said.
A hand touched his arm, and his head jerked around.
“Please let them down,” Alanna said. “Please. They are frightened.”
They were more than frightened. Larine’s face seemed drained of blood, and her mouth gaped as wide as it would go, as if she wanted to scream and had forgotten how. Bode was sobbing so hard she quivered. They were not the only ones. The rest of the Two Rivers girls had huddled together as far from him as they could get, and most of them were crying too. The serving maids were in that tight cluster as well, weeping as hard as anyone else. The innkeeper had sagged to his knees, goggle-eyed and gurgling wordlessly.
Rand eased the two girls back down and hastily let go of saidin. “I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to scare you.” As soon as they could move, Bode and Larine fled to join the other girls clutching one another. “Bode? Larine? I’m sorry. I won’t hurt you, I promise.” They did not look at him. None of them did. Sulin was certainly looking at him, and the rest of the Maidens too, blank-faced, flat-eyed disapproving stares.
“What’s done is done,” Bashere said, setting down his mug. “Who knows? Perhaps it’s for the best.”
Rand nodded slowly. It probably was. Best that they wanted to stay clear of him. Best for them. He just wished he could have talked a little while longer about home. A little while longer with them seeing only Rand al’Thor. His knees still wobbled from the bonding, but once he began moving, he did not stop until he was back in Jeade’en’s saddle. Best that they were afraid of him. Best that he forgot the Two Rivers. He wondered whether that mountain ever got lighter for a time, or only kept on getting heavier.


I'd be surprised if Sulin did not mention to one of the Wise Ones off scene before she left with Perrin's group to Ghealdan, that Tam al'Thor raised Rand al'Thor in Two Rivers as his son.


Just as Rand wants to forget Two Rivers to avoid the pain of abandon his homeland and childhood memories; Rand has abandoned or is trying to abandon now even the memories of the Aiel Maidens. Why? Because he hates knowing women are dying for him. To forget them is to try to pull the pain away from himself. Even a personally protector figure like Nynaeve's character has slowly become forgotten and yes, not trusted as fully as before.


Separately later, Rand cuts his hand in Aridhol just before exiting that city, and Sulin saw that cut too (LoC,Chapter 21):

As the last of the Aiel went through, Sulin hissed, and he glanced at her, but she was looking at his hand. At the back of his hand, where his fingernails had sliced a gash that oozed blood. Wrapped in the Void as he was, the pain might have belonged to someone else. The physical mark did not matter; it would heal. He had made deeper inside, where no one could see. One for each Maiden who died, and he never let them heal.


This one cut I think has influences Rand's growing distrust, too. He's becoming similar to Mordeth, too....


Rand's sort of a cross of Mordeth, his old Two Rivers self and at times even Ishamael, when that 'darkness' arises out of his eyes. Although love conquering all theme, at the end of tGS book "Veins of Gold", does too suggest that Rand has changed for good now in a far better way.

Terez
01-15-2010, 06:38 PM
So, she thinks of her plan 6 days before we see Sulin on screen.
Yes, but that is 24 days after we are last sure that Sulin is with Perrin.

You are right that Rand didn't mention the sword when he saw Galad (I thought he had, or that he had mentioned Perrin being there for some time), but on p.280 (ch. 17), that is day 755, and on day 760 (in the text, 'a week out of Malden', the last day we know for sure Sulin is with him, they are setting up camp near the Jehannah Road. The statue is also near the Jehannah Road, so it doesn't seem likely that they traveled far to get to the sword. The Jehannah road leads up into Ghealdan, so it may be that he is headed that way with Alliandre, but you would think that with 30 days to march, each day shedding refugees, that Perrin would be in Jehannah by now. Also, Galad's men were in his vicinity at Malden. If Galad is still with him (which we are actually not sure of), did Galad march up the Jehannah road into Ghealdan with him? Or are they still in the vicinity of the spot they were in on day 760? In the other direction, the road leads down into Illian, and Perrin has made clear that he wants to go north. But he has not considered going up into Ghealdan - only going around Andor to Cairhien, and only that because that was where he last saw Rand.

FelixPax
01-15-2010, 07:36 PM
@Terez, where are you claim Perrin's army is located now? Because the Jehannah Road is roughly a west to east route, not a north to south road.

The Jehannah road leads up into Ghealdan,

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zLF7UMyLc_E/Su2_IeqBHOI/AAAAAAAAAvc/wRs4rAZcsBM/s1600/ALTARA_001.jpg


A good part of the area between Remen and Ghealdan isn't even claimed by either the Altara crown nor the Ghealdan nation, because of the outcome of the Whitecloaks War years earlier. Meaning Perrin had to cross a large depopulated area before even getting into Ghealdan proper.

Ishara
01-15-2010, 11:02 PM
T, that clarifies a bit. But if his priorities have changed (which I don't dispute given we don't have a pov from him or even a pov from someone else in his camp -just Rand's vision which certainly doesn't address the refugees), then how can he traveling faster down the Jehannah Road by shedding refugees everyday? I mean, either he keeps most of them with him or he doesn't, no?

Terez
01-15-2010, 11:42 PM
Well, if his priorities didn't shift, then he had no real reason to be moving up toward Jehannah, not that he did anyway. It's hard to gauge how many refugees wanted to stay with him and how many wanted to go. Part of Perrin's reason for wanting to pause probably had something to do with his thoughts on how he had to figure out whether or not he wanted to lead these people.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2010, 03:07 AM
The strangest thing is that Rand did not question Sulin. He knows she was with Perrin, and he should have wondered why she returned, or at least asked her what Perrin had been up to all this time.An even more strangest thing is why neither Sorilea nor any of the other WOs who wanted to find Tam questioned Sulin.

WinespringBrother
01-16-2010, 09:24 AM
An even more strangest thing is why neither Sorilea nor any of the other WOs who wanted to find Tam questioned Sulin.

That's kind of my point. Though I would think they would get their information from Edarra or one of the other Wise Ones before questioning Sulin. The answer is that I think Perrin was still moving after Sulin and the Wise Ones parted ways with his party.

Terez
01-16-2010, 01:55 PM
An even more strangest thing is why neither Sorilea nor any of the other WOs who wanted to find Tam questioned Sulin.
Who says they did not? All the evidence points to exactly that.

Also, WSB, do you have evidence of any of the Wise Ones going from Perrin to Rand? I only see one mention of Edarra in the book, and she is with Perrin at the time (but so is Sulin).

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2010, 03:28 PM
Who says they did not? All the evidence points to exactly that.Could you clarify your reasoning a bit? I'll give an abbreviated time line, to show the difficulty I see.

1. Rand sends Perrin away. With Perrin go a lot of others, including Sulin.
2. Tam and other TR persons join Perrin.
3. Somehow Sulin returns to Rand.
4. The WOs, badgered by Cadsuane, decide that they want to find Tam. Somehow they figure out that they have too look for Perrin for this.
5. For some reason, they decide that Rand, who hasn't seen Perrin since step 1 (one) knows better where to find Perrin (and hence Tam) than Sulin would, who last saw him in step 3 (which perhaps should be step 4, depending on when the WOs decided to start looking for Tam).

Now, why is it that the WOs ever thought that asking Rand would be in any way more dependable than asking Sulin?
It turned out they were right, true, but they seem to have had no reason at all for that. Perhaps they saidared it, of course.

FelixPax
01-16-2010, 03:47 PM
An even more strangest thing is why neither Sorilea nor any of the other WOs who wanted to find Tam questioned Sulin.

Remember who Melaine's husband (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/b/bael.html) is?


He was in the very same room as Sulin was, when Bode Cauthon told the room that Tam raised Rand al'Thor in 'Lord of Chaos' book. Bael knew of Tam al'Thor, too. Both Bael and Melainie were in Arab Doman, when Cadsuane came to pitch her plans about what to do about Rand's worsening behavior to the four Wise Ones: Sorilea, Amys, Bair and Melaine.

Bael as Clan chief of the Goshien Aiel was part of the big war planning meeting with Rand (tGS book, Chapter 'The Plan for Arad Doman'), as well. Melaine and the Wise Ones knew where and how to reach him if necessary.

It obvious Bael at sometime in the story told Melaine about Tam al'Thor relationship of raising Rand al'Thor as his son.



If not from Bael knowledge alone, then there is the influence of that other relationship between Melaine and Min, which is enough for Melaine to want to name one of her future daughters after Min (LoC, Chapter 41 "A Threat"):

After all that arguing, he half-expected the pair to be at one another’s throats, but it seemed that Melaine’s pregnancy and Min’s viewing had created a bond. When they stood, the women were all smiles and hugs, and Melaine said, “I did not think I would like you, Min, but I do, and I will name one of the girls after you, because you knew of her first. I must go to tell Bael so he will not be jealous that Rand al’Thor knew before him. May you always find water and shade, Min.”

Min also likely recalls her first meeting with Sulin vividly:

“They aren’t going to be very pleased either, sheepherder,” she said dryly. “But I will tell them.”
A crash whipped Rand’s head around.
Sulin stood just inside the door in her red-and-white dress, her face so suffused with blood that the scar on her cheek stood out even paler than usual. Her white hair had grown since she put on the livery, but it was still shorter than any of the servants’. Mistress Harfor had had it made into a close cap of curls. Sulin hated that. At her feet was a silver tray bordered in worked gold, with silver-chased golden goblets lying on their sides. The wine pitcher rocked a last time as he looked, and miraculously stopped upright, though there appeared to be as much wine punch on tray and carpet as there could be remaining in the pitcher.
Min was halfway into scrambling to her feet when he caught her by the waist and pulled her back down. Time enough and more to drive home that he was done with Aviendha, and Min would not mind helping. In fact, after a moment of resistance, she leaned into him and put her head on his chest. “Sulin,” he said, “a good servant does not toss trays about. Now, pick it up and do as you’re supposed to.” Staring at him darkly, she all but quivered.
Figuring out how to let her meet her toh while discharging at least some of his obligation to her had been little short of brilliant. Sulin cared for his rooms now, and fetched and carried only for him. She hated it, of course, especially that he saw her doing it every day, but she no longer broke her back scrubbing floors all over the Palace or hauling endless streams of heavy water buckets for laundry. He suspected she would rather every Aiel this side of the Dragonwall saw her shame than allow him to, but he had eased her labors notably, eased his conscience somewhat, and if having to work for him made her decide her toh was met sooner, all to the good. Sulin belonged in cadin’sor carrying her spears, not in livery folding bed linens.
Picking up the tray, she stalked across the room and pushed it roughly onto an ivory-inlaid table. As she started to turn away, he said, “This is Min, Sulin. She’s my friend. She doesn’t know Aiel ways, and I would take it amiss should anything untoward happen to her.” It had just occurred to him that the Maidens might have their own view of him sending away Aviendha and holding another woman almost as soon as she was gone. Their own view, and their own way of dealing with it. “In fact, if any harm comes to her, I’ll consider it done to me.”
“Why should any but Aviendha wish to harm this woman?” Sulin said grimly. “She gave too much time to dreaming over you, and not enough to teaching you what you should know.” Giving herself a shake, she growled, “My Lord Dragon.” He thought it was supposed to be a murmur. She nearly fell over twice in her curtsy before she was upright again, and she slammed the door on her way out.
Min twisted her head to look up at him. “I don’t think I have ever seen a maid like—Rand, I believe she’d have stabbed you if she had a knife.”

And who came in to the room to see Rand after Sulin left the room? Melaine, who then learns from Min that she's pregnant with twin daughters. And why did Melaine come to visit Rand?

“I have news,” Melaine said, “and I am uncertain which is the most important. Egwene has gone from the tents. She goes to a place called Salidar, where there are Aes Sedai. These are the Aes Sedai who may uphold you. At her asking, we did not speak to you of them before, but now I will tell you they are forward, undisciplined, contentious and full of themselves beyond reason.” Her tone was heated toward the end, and her head was thrust forward.

...

Melaine showed no surprise at his knowledge, not even shifting her shawl. Since marrying Bael she seemed to have—“calmed” was not quite the right word; it was much too placid for Melaine—grown less excitable. “That was my second news. You must be wary of them, Rand al’Thor, and use a firm hand. They will respect nothing else.” Most definitely a change.

“You will have two daughters,” Min murmured. “Twins like mirrors.”


Min knew of Tam al'Thor because of Rand's own words, here if not earlier in the story as well:

"I have to fix what problems I can," Rand said, pulling the ancient sword from the sheath and checking the blade. There was no heron mark, but the fine steel blade glistened in the lamplight, showing the undulating lines of its folded metal. It had been Power-forged, he claimed. He seemed to know things about it he did not share.

Rand snapped the blade into the black scabbard, looking at her. "Fix the problems you can, don't fret over the ones you cannot. It was something Tam once told me. Arad Doman will have to survive against the Seanchan on its own. The last thing I can do for the people here is remove one of the Forsaken from their soil."

Between Bael, Min's separate sets of knowledge about who Tam al'Thor is, the Wise Ones including Melaine knew where Sulin was, with Perrin and six other Wise Ones. The tracking down of Tam al'Thor must of been more difficult than Sulin, because Tam al'Thor joined (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/kod/ch29.html) Perrin's group separately from when Sulin did. Sulin left Cairhien with Perrin forces, while Tam al'Thor joined Perrin in Altara area after arriving with Asha'man Grady and a bunch of other Two Rivermen by a Traveling weave.

Yet, Sulin had to of know that Tam al'Thor was with Perrin's forces, because Tam became Perrin's top Captain of his forces while Sulin headed the Maidens. But the Wise Ones did not necessarily need or have to speak to Sulin to get the news of where and who, Tam al'Thor was located.


I think that the other six Wise Ones with Perrin's Army would have gone involved, trying to convince Tam al'Thor to see his 'son' Rand.
Its also difficult to think that Amys didn't speak to one of the six other Wise Ones with Perrin's forces, after learning that Shiado Wise Ones were captured and being held as damane by the Seanchan, early into tGS book with Aviendha present in the scene. Those six Wise Ones should of had to explain what occurred in detail to Amys, down in Altara at Malden. Tam al'Thor's name might of came up then too.

Between Bael and Melaine knowledge of who Tam al'Thor was to Rand, and Amys communicating to the six Wise Ones with Perrin's forces that would of been enough of link to track down Tam al'Thor. Sulin help though here would of made the job easier though, I agree.

Terez
01-16-2010, 03:50 PM
Could you clarify your reasoning a bit? I'll give an abbreviated time line, to show the difficulty I see.

1. Rand sends Perrin away. With Perrin go a lot of others, including Sulin.
2. Tam and other TR persons join Perrin.
3. Somehow Sulin returns to Rand.
4. The WOs, badgered by Cadsuane, decide that they want to find Tam. Somehow they figure out that they have too look for Perrin for this.
Yes, it is the somehow that points to Sulin. Though I suppose it's possible that they visited the Two Rivers looking for Tam. There are a few scenarios that I can come up with that explain why Sulin didn't know exactly where to find him, though...but Perrin looking for Rand is the only explanation I can come up with for Sulin being back with Rand. Granted, there could be some reason we don't know of, but that's the only one I can see any evidence for.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2010, 04:22 PM
But if Sulin reached Rand, and Sulin came from Perrin, then at what stage did Sulin forget where Perrin could be found?

Terez
01-16-2010, 04:29 PM
She didn't forget. It could be that Perrin traveled further from the point at which Sulin left Perrin, so she didn't know exactly where he was, and was never intended to because Perrin was planning on looking for a landmark at some point further down the road from where the Shaido were, and was depending on Rand's ability to see him.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2010, 05:37 PM
Did Perrin know that Rand had any such ability to see him?
As far as I can remember, it didn't start until they separated, and none of them discussed it with anyone else at all until Rand started explaining how he knew things about Mat and Perrin.

FelixPax
01-16-2010, 06:04 PM
But if Sulin reached Rand, and Sulin came from Perrin, then at what stage did Sulin forget where Perrin could be found?

Its likely Perrin's six Aiel Wise Ones know the Traveling weave now, and everyone moved in one big step to someplace else (Ghealdan probably). The Wise Ones sent one of their own number or Cadsuane herself to retrieve Sulin, its highly unlikely they used one of the Asha'man to do this. The point being those six Wise Ones know Traveling now. And how to "Link" together.


Either way, Bair (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/b/bair.html) or Amys et la could of found them again by Dreaming into either of these same Wise Ones, Bain's and/or Gaul's own Dreams. Bair, Bain (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/b/bain.html) and Gaul all are Shaarad Aiel. Aviendha, herself pointed out that Bair was the only non-Taardad or Goshien Wise One among the Wise Ones in Arad Doman (tGS book, Ch. "The Way of Honor", page 85). Melaine (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/m/melaine.html)might of done the same thing for Chiad (each is Goshien clan), asking where Perrin and Tam al'Thor were, but she's pregnant now. Elayne has had problems Dreaming when she is pregnant; that's why the Bair to Bain, Gaul connection pops up instead I think. Gaul (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/g/gaul.html) for sure knew where Tam al'Thor was, as they worked together a lot during Malden.

Terez
01-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Did Perrin know that Rand had any such ability to see him?
He has no way of knowing for sure, but I'm quite sure he suspects that Rand has the same problem with the colors.

They started for Rand when he was in the box, but they didn't start for Mat and Perrin until after that.

WinespringBrother
01-18-2010, 12:45 PM
Who says they did not? All the evidence points to exactly that.

Also, WSB, do you have evidence of any of the Wise Ones going from Perrin to Rand? I only see one mention of Edarra in the book, and she is with Perrin at the time (but so is Sulin).

I don't have any sightings of Wise One's with Rand's party. However, it would be logical for 2 reasons for them to have rejoined their clans:

1) Edarra's obsession with killing Masema can't be fulfilled anymore, since he is dead and likely presumed missing by the Wise Ones. Their mission in that regard is either completed or failed depending on their awareness of Masema's demise.

2) The Aiel's distaste for dealing with wetlander refugees, mentioned many times by Rhuarc.

FelixPax
01-18-2010, 04:00 PM
I don't have any sightings of Wise One's with Rand's party. However, it would be logical for 2 reasons for them to have rejoined their clans:

I understanding this reasoning as to why those six Wise Ones may have left Perrin's group.

Yet I highly doubt Perrin is totally free of having Wise Ones in his group. Perrin was after using those two Aes Sedai, after all (now Apprentices the six Wises Ones in question). Plus, its difficult to see any of the 3 Aiel Dreamwalkers asking, or removing the Wise Ones watching and advising Perrin. Their a guaranteed way to reach Perrin anywhere, and they understand Amys, Bair, Melainie position among the Aiel in ways Gaul doesn't just yet.

Moiraine knew the importance of Perrin's tav'eren nature for sure by Illian: e.g. Wolf Dreaming of Rand. I have always assumed Moiraine, told the Wise Ones sometime off-scene about all three tav'eren, who all grew up in the same village. Timed between the her entry into the rings at Rhuidean and her wrestling match with Lanfear in Cairhien into the Eelfinn's realm. Solirea, Amys, Bair, Melaine knew of Perrin importance to the Pattern for sure by then. Its just hard to see them let's Perrin go unprotected by Wise Ones, when they know how importance he is to the whole existence to Rand's success and their very own survival as Aiel Clans after the Tarmon Gai'don.

WinespringBrother
01-21-2010, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by RJ/BS: TGS Chapter 44 Scents Unknown pg 701

Cadsuane pursed her lips. "I assumed he would go eastward, toward lands al'Thor has captured." She took a deep breath. "All right. We are going for him right now."

So:

1) Cadsuane looked for Perrin in Altara, seeing as how she had a starting reference point to look eastward of.

2) Since she didn't find Perrin on her own, she was either going off real bad information (which is unlikely since she probably got it from the Aiel) or the information was dated and it took a while to reach her, and she didn't take the time to backtrack to Perrin's trail, instead probably using gateways to leap about like when Perrin originally tried to locate the Shaido.

3) Perrin did not stay in one place after Sulin left to rejoin Rand. Else Cadsuane would have gone right to him.

Terez
01-21-2010, 07:33 PM
Yeah, I had Perrin's unsuccessful gateway-tracking attempts in mind when I assumed that Sulin knew where to find him, but not exactly where. And Perrin was indeed considering moving eastward when we last heard from him; Cadsuane's thoughts nearly echo his own.