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nameless
01-19-2010, 12:27 PM
I think I figured out what's going on with the sickness that takes Rand every time he tries to channel. We know the sickness began around the time he accidentally linked himself to Moridin/Ishamael at Shadar Logoth. We know Moridin's been channeling the True Power extensively and has already begun to manifest saa which are the first signs of incurable TP addiction. We know that whenever other Forsaken think about the True Power they think of an unspecified price it exacts and usually express the opinion that Moridin is insane for his willingness to pay that price.

My theory: the price of prolonged use of True Power is to lose your ability to channel the One Power. Moridin uses True Power exclusively because his system has been changed by it and now contact with saidin makes him violently ill. As a side effect of his link with Rand he now becomes ill even when Rand channels and that illness is transmitted through the link, causing Rand's blurred vision, naseau, etc.

Davian93
01-19-2010, 12:33 PM
Interesting theory...but why is that the case?


Part of the price was the fact that it was extremely addictive and literally took the channelers eyes eventually (see Ishy's first incarnation.) And it also drove him half-mad.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2010, 12:59 PM
I doubt it. Ishamael kept offering to teach Rand how to channel the OP, and I don't think that was an empty promise. Such lessons would have been impossible if Ishamael hadn't been able to channel it himself.

WinespringBrother
01-19-2010, 03:11 PM
Not to mention the fact that only OP channelers can channel the TP, per q&a's with RJ and BS.

lurk
01-20-2010, 11:01 AM
Maybe the problem is that when Rand opens himself to embrace Saidin he experiences Moridin who is somewhere else doing something else. Messing up your vision, your sense of being solid somewhere, your feelings.

That would make you sick I guess :confused:

fdsaf3
01-20-2010, 06:35 PM
Not to mention the fact that only OP channelers can channel the TP, per q&a's with RJ and BS.

This doesn't necessarily preclude the theory from being true. People learn to channel the One Power first, and the theory is that since Moridin/Ishmael has used the TS so extensively he has lost his ability to touch the OP without getting sick. It's like marijuana is a gateway drug, but once you're hooked on heroin, not getting high on heroin makes you violently sick. So in this case, channeling the TS would be an "evolution" or a "progression" from using the OP.

nameless
01-20-2010, 07:55 PM
Ishamael channeled saidin on several occassions in tGH and tDR now that I think about it, but Moridin uses True Power exclusively in his new body. If I'm right about the incompatibility then there's some missing factor beyond simply using enough to deform your eyes. If I'm wrong then there's a missing factor to explain why Moridin doesn't use saidin anymore. It might be as simple as that saidin failed to keep him alive during his fight at the Stone but the True Power couldn't stand up to Callandor either so I doubt that's the reason.

Lurk has a good point that the Rand/Moridin link might simply cause a sense of bilocation that is nauseating in and of itself.

Spasmodean
01-20-2010, 08:38 PM
Well it was noted that he was exclusively using the TP since becoming Nae'blis but also that he was the only one ALLOWED to use the TP since he was anointed.

The other Chosen seem very wary about using the TP, even if they have permission and it may be that Ishy has abandoned all care of any side effects it may cause because he knows that once the DO wins there will be no consequence to his TP use.

Davian93
01-20-2010, 09:28 PM
Well it was noted that he was exclusively using the TP since becoming Nae'blis but also that he was the only one ALLOWED to use the TP since he was anointed.

The other Chosen seem very wary about using the TP, even if they have permission and it may be that Ishy has abandoned all care of any side effects it may cause because he knows that once the DO wins there will be no consequence to his TP use.

Well, we know that Shaidar Haran (DO Avatar) can cut people off from the OP with no issues...maybe he doesnt allow Moridin to channel anything but the TP as a way of keeping his most important Lieutenant loyal considering so many others have gone their own way.

Bane Darkwulf
01-20-2010, 11:20 PM
I always vied it as sole Rand causing himself to get sick, which was psychosomatically induced into Moridin through the link. Rand was not completely at peace with himself, examples being every time he had to fight LTT for control of the OP. The inner conflict between the different parts of his personality were manifested in his physical body. He had his plan for the usage of the OP, but another part of his psyche had different plans, thus causing a conflict in intent.

The Dragon is one of the most powerful Ta'Veren ever created by the pattern. By definition, a ta'veren is a force of balance, When a balancing force itself is out of balance it causes unknowable problems in any system. Take the human immune system, a very delicate balancing force in the body. too few white blood cells and you are at a very great risk of dying from infections caused by very weak bacteria. Too many, it could start destroying your body from the inside.

The pattern was way out of balance, so it injected itself with the Dragon. When the Dragon became out of balance with itself, it started causing all kinds of problems. This is also known as shell shock. Rand, being brought up to protect women, couldn't do so. A very basic task in his mind. You don't let harm come to a woman unless you yourself are dead. Starting with Moiraine, and on through every woman in his list, women have put themselves in danger to protect him. Even with the considerable amount of Power a his disposal, he felt that he couldn't protect the women n his life.He can't keep the Maidens from throwing themselves into battle for him, couldn't stop Moi from taking down Lanfear, and he certainly couldn't stop the Aes Sedai from beating Min just to get at him. All of this, coupled with the fact that he KNOWS women are going to die in the Last Battle, I'm surprised he hasn't used his nice new sword as a way to prop himself up.

Bane Darkwulf
01-20-2010, 11:48 PM
I think that might just be the detail everyone has been theory-gasming over. Rands list of women he couldn't protect. His enemies know his weaknesses, and very well could offer him those women back, or offer to destroy even more just to get at him. It isn't a far leap, and he started keeping that list around that time.

Cor Shan
01-27-2010, 05:17 PM
Ishamael channeled saidin on several occassions in tGH and tDR now that I think about it, but Moridin uses True Power exclusively in his new body. If I'm right about the incompatibility then there's some missing factor beyond simply using enough to deform your eyes. If I'm wrong then there's a missing factor to explain why Moridin doesn't use saidin anymore. It might be as simple as that saidin failed to keep him alive during his fight at the Stone but the True Power couldn't stand up to Callandor either so I doubt that's the reason.

Lurk has a good point that the Rand/Moridin link might simply cause a sense of bilocation that is nauseating in and of itself.

In one of the Lanfear threads, the fact that the body might be tied to the actual strength of (OP) channeling came up. If this is true, then Moridin's body might be weaker than Ishameal wants, so he just uses the TP to make up for it.
Of course, we don't know if the body thing is true, nor if TP strength is independent of OP strength (and I suspect it is not.)

Tree Brother
01-27-2010, 05:39 PM
Of course, we don't know if the body thing is true, nor if TP strength is independent of OP strength (and I suspect it is not.)

I believe the only limit to TP strength is how much the D.O. allows you to access.

lurk
02-19-2010, 09:38 AM
I believe the only limit to TP strength is how much the D.O. allows you to access.

I doubt that, it is also not logical. If Ishy or any forsaken crazy enough to do it could channel as much of TP as the DO would allow, the DO could allow enough TP to be channeled as for example OP with callandor. That would give the DO an extremely powerful weapon to be thrown at the champion of light. No I think the strength in TP is, as with OP, limited to what your body and mind can handle. Channeling is very tiring, plenty of evidence in the books for that. So it is linked to your physical and mental strength. I expect the same with the TP, your body and mind just can handle so much channeling as your physical and mental strength allow.

lurk
02-19-2010, 09:43 AM
In one of the Lanfear threads, the fact that the body might be tied to the actual strength of (OP) channeling came up. If this is true, then Moridin's body might be weaker than Ishameal wants, so he just uses the TP to make up for it.
Of course, we don't know if the body thing is true, nor if TP strength is independent of OP strength (and I suspect it is not.)

Well if there is a connection to the body, which I believe, it is logical to assume that there are a selct number of bodies strong enough to stand up to the amount of channeling as LTT or the forsaken could put out. Being reborn like LTT gives the pattern the posibility of getting the soul the right body. Being put into some in the borderlands available body, like the DO does, severly limits the number of adequate bodies to choose from. Hence you can end up in a weaker body than before you were killed.

Tree Brother
02-21-2010, 02:09 PM
I believe the only limit to TP strength is how much the D.O. allows you to access.

I doubt that, it is also not logical. If Ishy or any forsaken crazy enough to do it could channel as much of TP as the DO would allow, the DO could allow enough TP to be channeled as for example OP with callandor.

I am pretty sure there is no limit, accept for what the DO allows. I searched through the interviews though, and all I can find at the moment is

1) angreal cannot be used with the TP.
2) The OP channeled through the Choedan Kal is more powerful than the TP.

Since using the TP will eventually kill you, drawing on the maximum the DO allows might not exactly be the safest thing to do.

I am not 100% sure, but I think this is the case.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2010, 05:06 PM
Drawing too much of the TP is immediately lethal, in Moghedien's opinion:
The Bore into the Great Lord’s place of imprisonment was no closer here than anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, here she could bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord. The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. Not that she had any desire to pay the price elsewhere either.

lurk
02-24-2010, 09:08 AM
Gonzo,

the quote is not very specific, because it says try to channel it would fry her to a cinder, how much is meant by "it"? all the TP she feels around her or a part?

But we know that drawing too much of the OP will kill you like it did with LTT in the proloque of TEoTW. Same probably goes for the TP.

And afaik the killing level of drawing the power is different for every person depending on their strength.

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2010, 09:30 AM
The quote doesn't need to be too specific. All that it needed to answer was "Can drawing too much TP be lethal?" and it answers that question quite well.

JanDSedai
03-07-2010, 08:49 PM
The channeling sickness started before Rand and Moridin "crossed the beams" in Shadar Logoth. That was only a week (ten days) after he escaped from the box (Dumai Wells).

Although the sickness is not mentioned in ACOS, the first time it is mentioned is TPOD ch13 "For an instant, he saw doubled;...That was a recent problem". And in TPOD ch 21 "The dizziness faded quickly, the twinned sight a little more slowly, as it always did, these last few weeks, and he completed the weave..."

According to the WOT Timeline, Dumai Wells occurred 10 days before the conquest of Illian, and the above quoted events occur 9 & 10 days after Illian. So, Rand has to be thinking that the nausea started with DW or its aftermath. (Or even before?)

The division of his psyche into "Rand" & "Lews Therin" is a coping mechanism in reply to the torture of being beaten and put into the box. The nausea could be a guilt complex; he doesn't deserve to channel because he couldn't save Min from being kidnapped. And it wouldn't necessarily show in his viewpoints, bcause that kind of thinking is so deeply buried.

I'll admit, "crossing the beams" didn't help, and that the "third person" is Moridin. But with Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, I think we will see the old Rand.

Terez
03-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Interesting. Clue or mistake? I lean towards mistake (either on RJ's part or on Steven Cooper's - I'm not sure how solid the timing details were at that point), simply because you'd think Rand would have mentioned it before Shadar Logoth. Or at Shadar Logoth. And he did not mention any dizziness at all until the balefire incident, which rang his head like a gong.

However, I believe you are mistaken about the onset of the Rand/Lews Therin coping mechanism. The development of that phenomenon is observable all through books 5 and 6 - the box was simply the first time Rand managed to flesh out the personality enough to have a 'conversation' with it. They had come close already a couple of times in Lord of Chaos. So yes, the stress of the kidnapping contributed to the development of the personality, but the original cause was the identity stress - Rand refused to accept Lews Therin's memories as his own, and therefore pretended that they were not, mostly due to the guilt of the Kinslaying.

JanDSedai
03-07-2010, 09:46 PM
Even before Rand knew he could channel, he was afraid of going crazy. He thinks at one point after Moiraine tells the three boys that one of them is the Dragon Reborn, I hope it is not me, because then I would have to go crazy, or words to that effect. So, after channeling at the Eye of the World, when he seems to have Lews Therin's memories, he sublimates the 'voices' until it presents as schizophenia.

Steve's dates are pretty tight up until about book 10. The unifying event of this arc is when the Bowl otw is used. (The Asha'man and the Seanchan both refer to this.) Steve even has dates for TGS, although these have qusteion marks on all the events. As far as I can tell, he is waiting for the next book to corroborate the dating. There will be a two week overlap between the different POV's in the two books.

Terez
03-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Yes, he was sweet enough to stop by and give us a link when he updated for TGS. :D I'm glad he's still updating, because I have no head for dates. I use the hell out of the chronology.

JanDSedai
03-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Exactly. I tried to do my own calendar when I was reading the books on my third time through, but then I found on-line fandom about ten years ago. And Steve's Oficial Timeline was WAY more complete than I could ever hope to do, so I refer to it all the time.

But not to change the subject. The integration of Rand's personalities should point to a mellower Rand. But I'm not sure what that is going to do about Moridin and their connection. But at least he will be able to deal with it more rationally.

Terez
03-07-2010, 11:58 PM
Yes, that is my thought as well. I don't think that it will have any direct effect on the link itself, but the healing of Rand's mind is paramount. RJ had been saying for years that the greatest danger to Rand, out of all his enemies, was Rand himself. I figured Moiraine would be the catalyst for his psychological recovery, but the recovery has already happened and he's still got that to go, along with a few other happy events sure to occur before his death.

JanDSedai
03-08-2010, 01:05 AM
Finding out about Elayne's babies should put him in a better mood, for sure!:)

Luckers
03-08-2010, 02:46 AM
On the timeline issue, I lean toward mistake as well. Direct correlation's between the sickness and the functioning of the link are made several times.

If anyone is interested here is my work on the link for the WoT FAQ update. In particular the 'Why Saidin, and Why Does The Link Cause Nausia' section is applicable to this thread--it's not updated for tGS yet, though basically I'd just point out Moridin's hand discomfort and the dream meeting as proof the link is growing stronger, and doing more than just provide thought transfer.

The Third Man

Who is the Third Man?

Ever since Lews Therin referenced the presense of another mind in Rand's head there has been discussion of who this Third Man was--we learn that it is Moridin in KoD-18-News For the Dragon.

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyes man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the fact of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael.

How Did the Link Form?

As for how Moridin manifesting in Rand's head, Rand himself figured that out.

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

And indeed, we see that link form.

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed.

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

And it is on the next page that we first see the link active.

Suddenly he realized that he had not felt saidin when the man made balefire, either. Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred.

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

This raises the question--exactly how does the link work. It seems to have two different roles, the first being passive, and the second active.

How Does the Link Work?

Passive Transferal

The thread already lists other passive transfer--Rand seeing Moridin's face in his dreams, Lews therin listing him as a destroyer, and so on. In CoT we learn that's continued and that Rand is not getting foggy visions of Moridin's face awake...

He no longer feared killing Min or Elayne or Aviendha any more than he feared going mad. Madder than he already was, at least, with a dead man in his head, and sometimes a foggy face he could almost recognize

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]


There are also references to the foggy or vague face in WH-22-Out of Thin Air and WH-35-With the Choedan Kal.

Later in the CoT-24 we see that just as with Lews Therin, knowledge and thoughts seem to be filtering through the link. In CoT we see Rand wax poetic about the Creator...

Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

Now Rand concludes that this must come from an amalgamation of his and Lews Therin's thoughts, but that's only because he knows Lews Therin didn't say it and couldn't think of who else might--and the reality is that this seems much more in tune with Moridin given his philosophical background.

Active Transferal

The passive transferal seems to just flow through when ever, but the the link seems to be tied in with saidin--specifically whenever Rand draws on, or releases saidin it activates the link. I'll touch more on the significance of the fact that it is only when he draws on, or releases the source later. But for now, we first witness the channeling sickness in tPoD.

Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments.

[tPoD-Floating Like Snow]

From there it continues, whenever he gathers or releases saidin. There was hot debate between whether it was the Taint or the Link which was causing this. Rand himself assumed it was the taint, and in addition to Morr that is the main reason he buckles down in Winter's Heart to cleanse it. Afterwards he is at a loss to explain whilst it is still there.

That did not stop nausea from rising in Rand, though, the violent urge to bend double and empty himself on the floor. The room seemed to spin for an instant, and he had to put a hand on the nearest bedpost to steady himself. He did not know why he should still feel this sickness, with the taint gone.

[CoT-24-A Strengthing Storm]


But the Winter's Heart Prologue rules this out. In it we witness the dizziness come without saidin, but with the image of Moridin.

“You should have picked smaller books, “ he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. “Or lighter.” He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished.

Lews Therin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?

“If you think you’ll make me carry them all that way, think again,” Min grumbled. “I’ve seen better pretending from stablehands. You could try falling down.”

“Not this time.” He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly... ”

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

Now aside from proving the sickness is caused by the link, this raises a problem--specifically how the link could become active without Rand siezing or releasing saidin, as is the case every other time he experiences the nausea. The likely answer is that this time it was Moridin's channeling that activated the link instead of Rand's. There is more support for that being the case, but I'll address that in a second.

In any case it is confirmed completely that the neusea is caused by the link. Specifically, in KoD, we see the reverse occuring--Rand activating the link, experiencing the nausea, and seeing Moridin.

with saidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that as hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.

[KoD-21-Within the Stone]

So drawing and releasing saidin is what facilitates the link into becoming active, and it is the link that causes the nausea. Moreover Moridin is experiencing the nausea when Rand is activating the link, and given the Winter's Heart prologue, Rand is experiencing it when Moridin does.

Curiously, it seems to be saidin that activates it for both men. This seems strange, one would think that it would be channeling the True Power which caused this in Moridin given that it was the TP he was channeling when the link was formed, nevertheless given that Moridin seems to be using the TP without issue, and Demandres states that he is now using it exclusively after three thousand years of using both it and saidin in mixture.

Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.[WH-13-Wonderful News]

So, it would appear that Saidin is the contributing factor in activating the link for Moridin as well. I have a possible explanation for this--though to be clear this is where we move into the realm of conjecture on my part.

Why Saidin? And Why Does the Link Cause Nausea?

Firstly, on the nausea, consider the initial descriptions RJ uses to describe the formation of, and first activation of the link. "Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands." and "Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred."

In both cases the link affected his perception, which is not unreasonable given the description of the trauma Rand underwent. However concider this, as time passes Rand slowly begins to percieve an imperfect image through the link--Moridin's face--and at the same time this perception induces nausea. Note that the one time Rand does perfectly percieve Moridin he does not feel the nausea. Rand even remarks on it. "Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness."

In effect, I suggest the nausea is being caused by the weakness of the link. The perceptions coming to him of Moridin (or from Moridin? Or both?) are disjointed, vague and fuzzy. Worse yet it seems to be going straight into his brain before his concious mind becomes aware of it (or can make enough sense of it) to process an image from it. It is this that I would suggest is causing the violent nausea.

From this point, though not entirely related to it, we can deduce that the link is growing stronger. It started with a vague jumble that his concious mind couldn't even process, slowly stablizing and thus putting forth an imperfect image, and then beyond that into a fully cohesive image, which when percieved does not induce the nausea, until finally in the very last activation of the link that we witness in KoD 21 Rand states "Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair."

So, the link has been steadily growing stronger, and based on the above quote, it is also steadily pulling Rand and Moridin's souls closer together, by which I mean that not only are perceptions passing through the link, but it is also having a very real effect on both Rand and Moridin--it is not just a string between to cans, used for passing information along. It's almost like a bungy rope, connecting, but also drawing them together.

But, to continue the cans and string analogy, if the link is the string, and Rand and Moridin are people listening to the cans, then what are the cans themselves? Of course Rand and Moridin might be the cans, but the fact that some of what is passing through the link seems to be going straight into Rand's subconcious before his concious mind puts it together suggests that there is another element.

My suggestion would be that the link is based in the part of their souls that they use to reach out and touch saidin. Consider, channelers souls have a natural affinity to each other in that area; a certain resonance exists between them. Women can sense 'the ability' in other women, and sense it as an attraction, a sense of kinship. Men's senses are more limited, but there is still a resonance between the souls of male channelers. Like calling to like, as it were. This link seems to be attempting to do the same thing, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

Furthermore, as I pointed out above, the link is actived only when reaching out to touch saidin, or in releasing it. In effect the link is only active when that 'ethric arm' (that connection or extension of the soul or whatever it is precisely that Nynaeve notices as having been cut in Logain, Siuan and Leane) is being used.

These two points are my answer to the question of why this is affecting Moridin's ability to channel saidin--the link is based in (occurred in, is of, etc) the parts of their soul designed to touch saidin. Of course RJ stated a normal shield (which seems to work as a constriction of that 'ethric arm') would stop someone being able to channel the True Power, which seems to suggest that the arm is used in channeling the True Power, however it would make sense that what could keep something in can keep something out, and thus the arm may not be involved at all.

Or, if it is involved and there is still some element of this that we don't understand--maybe its all in the like calling like, and use of the arm to touch the True Power doesn't resonate enough to activate the link. *shrug*. As I said this is conjecture on my part.



So What Does All This Mean? What Comes Next?

The link is growing stronger, and Rand and Moridin are coming closer and closer together. There has been fierce argument about what this link may result in. My vote, bodyswap. ;D

JanDSedai
03-08-2010, 07:21 PM
Hey! Luckers! I was surprised to see you are a Youngling, but I guess this is the wrong forum.:)

That was a very good summary of the official position. I am almost convinced !

In defense of Rand thinking it was weeks since the nausea began, I guess Gating here and yonder several times a day fighting the Seanchan can mess up your sense of elapsed time.

Terez
03-08-2010, 07:26 PM
Hey! Luckers! I was surprised to see you are a Youngling, but I guess this is the wrong forum.:)
If he keeps posting, we'll probably Elderize him soon enough. But then, it doesn't really take much to get Elderized here. Just Tam getting around to it.

Also, I had assumed you were an old Theorylander returned, because there was a Jan here once (before my time), and you seem to be book-knowledgeable so it made sense. But it looks like maybe I was wrong?

Terez
03-08-2010, 08:14 PM
Also, I should have responded to this earlier (even though it's OT; this is Theoryland, and we're not shy about hijacking), but I was busy so I passed it over (last point first):

So, after channeling at the Eye of the World, when he seems to have Lews Therin's memories, he sublimates the 'voices' until it presents as schizophenia.
The only real evidence of Rand getting memories after the Eye is maybe his amazing ability for coming up with weaves on his own. But he doesn't do it all that often until The Shadow Rising, and that's the first time we get something that is undeniably a Lews Therin memory, in ch. 9 (not counting his recognition of Shayol Ghul in a dream in book 1 ch. 9, which was well before the battle at the Eye, and before Rand channeled at all).

Even before Rand knew he could channel, he was afraid of going crazy. He thinks at one point after Moiraine tells the three boys that one of them is the Dragon Reborn, I hope it is not me, because then I would have to go crazy, or words to that effect.
Moiraine never tells the boys that one of them is the Dragon Reborn. If she had done that, then Rand would have known it was him, at the Eye, but he did not know until they told him in The Great Hunt. None of them even suspected that the Dark One was hunting them for that reason. This scene makes that much clear:

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 26 - Whitebridge

"Why are you doing this?" Mat demanded again. "You'd be safer if you left us. Why are you staying with us?"

Thom stared at him for a long moment. "I had a nephew, Owyn," he said wearily, shrugging out of his cloak. He made a pile with his blanketroll as he talked, carefully setting his cased instruments on top. "My brother's only son, my only living kin. He got in trouble with the Aes Sedai, but I was too busy with ... other things. I don't know what I could have done, but when I finally tried, it was too late. Owyn died a few years later. You could say Aes Sedai killed him." He straightened up, not looking at them. His voice was still level, but Rand glimpsed tears in his eyes as he turned his head away. "If I can keep you two free of Tar Valon, maybe I can stop thinking about Owyn. Wait here." Still avoiding their eyes, he hurried to the mouth of the alley, slowing before he reached it. After one quick look around, he strolled casually into the street and out of sight.

Mat half rose to follow, then settled back. "He won't leave these," he said, touching the leather instrument cases. "You believe that story?"

Rand squatted patiently beside the rain barrels. "What's the matter with you, Mat? You aren't like this. I haven't heard you laugh in days."

"I don't like being hunted like a rabbit," Mat snapped. He sighed, letting his head fall back against the brick wall of the inn. Even like that he seemed tense. His eyes shifted warily. "Sorry. It's the running, and all these strangers, and ... and just everything. It makes me jumpy. I look at somebody, and I can't help wondering if he's going to tell the Fades about us, or cheat us, or rob us, or ... Light, Rand, doesn't it make you nervous?"

Rand laughed, a quick bark in the back of his throat. "I'm too scared to be nervous."

"What do you think the Aes Sedai did to his nephew?"

"I don't know," Rand said uneasily. There was only one kind of trouble that he knew of for a man to get into with Aes Sedai. "Not like us, I guess."

"No. Not like us."
But Rand's identity crisis, on the other hand, did indeed start long before he knew that he could channel. It started when he found out that Tam was not his father:

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 6 - Into the Woods

"... battles are always hot, even in the snow. Sweat heat. Blood heat. Only death is cool. Slope of the mountain ... only place didn't stink of death. Had to get away from smell of it ... sight of it ... heard a baby cry. Their women fight alongside the men, sometimes, but why they had let her come, I don't ... gave birth there alone, before she died of her wounds ... covered the child with her cloak, but the wind ... blown the cloak away ... child, blue with the cold. Should have been dead, too ... crying there. Crying in the snow. I couldn't just leave a child ... no children of our own ... always knew you wanted children. I knew you'd take it to your heart, Kari. Yes, lass. Rand is a good name. A good name."

Suddenly Rand's legs lost the little strength they had. Stumbling, he fell to his knees. Tam moaned with the jolt, and the strip of blanket cut into Rand's shoulders, but he was not aware of either. If a Trolloc had leaped up in front of him right then, he would just have stared at it. He looked over his shoulder at Tam, who had sunk back into wordless murmur. Fever-dreams, he thought dully. Fevers always brought bad dreams, and this was a night for nightmares even without a fever.

"You are my father," he said aloud, stretching back a hand to touch Tam, "and I am – " The fever was worse. Much worse.

Grimly he struggled to his feet. Tam murmured something, but Rand refused to listen to any more. Throwing his weight against the improvised harness he tried to put all of his mind into taking one leaden step after another, into reaching the safety of Emond's Field. But he could not stop the echo in the back of his mind. He's my father. It was just a fever-dream. He's my father. It was just a fever-dream. Light, who am I?
How many times later does Rand insist, "I am Rand al'Thor!"? Quite a few, usually following "I am not Lews Therin!" :D Anyway, there are several examples of this denial throughout the book, and of course it's echoed loud and clear in the scene where they tell him he is the Dragon Reborn (longquote is long...and incidentally, in this same chapter, Nynaeve has a full-fledged conversation with a voice in her head):

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn

"Why are you talking to me like this, Mother?" he asked. "You should be gentling me."

The Amyrlin Seat frowned and turned to Moiraine. "Did Lan teach him this?"

"No, Mother. He had it from Tam al'Thor."

"Why?" Rand demanded again.

The Amyrlin Seat looked him straight in the eye and said, "Because you are the Dragon Reborn."

The void rocked. The world rocked. Everything seemed to spin around him. He concentrated on nothing, and the emptiness returned, the world steadied. "No, Mother. I can channel, the Light help me, but I am not Raolin Darksbane, nor Guaire Amalasin, nor Yurian Stonebow. You can gentle me, or kill me, or let me go, but I will not be a tame false Dragon on a Tar Valon leash."

He heard Verin gasp, and the Amyrlin's eyes widened, a gaze as hard as blue rock. It did not affect him; it slid off the void within.

"Where did you hear those names?" the Amyrlin demanded. "Who told you Tar Valon pulls the lines on any false Dragon?"

"A friend, Mother," he said. "A gleeman. His name was Thom Merrilin. He's dead, now." Moiraine made a sound, and he glanced at her. She claimed Thom was not dead, but she had never offered any proof, and he could not see how any man could survive grappling hand-to-hand with a Fade. The thought was extraneous, and it faded away. There was only the void and the oneness now.

"You are not a false Dragon," the Amyrlin said firmly. "You are the true Dragon Reborn."

"I am a shepherd from the Two Rivers, Mother."

"Daughter, tell him the story. A true story, boy. Listen well."

Moiraine began speaking. Rand kept his eyes on the Amyrlin's face, but he heard.

"Nearly twenty years ago the Aiel crossed the Spine of the World, the Dragonwall, the only time they have ever done so. They ravaged through Cairhien, destroyed every army sent against them, burned the city of Cairhien itself, and fought all the way to Tar Valon. It was winter and snowing, but cold or heat mean little to an Aiel. The final battle, the last that counted, was fought outside the Shining Walls, in the shadow of Dragonmount. In. three days and three nights of fighting, the Aiel were turned back. Or rather they turned back, for they had done what they came to do, which was to kill King Laman of Cairhien, for his sin against the Tree. It is then that my story begins. And yours."

They came over the Dragonwall like a flood. All the way to the Shining Walls. Rand waited for the memories to fade, but it was Tam's voice he heard, Tam sick and raving, pulling up secrets from his past. The voice clung outside the void, clamoring to get in.

"I was one of the Accepted, then," Moiraine said, "as was our Mother, the Amyrlin Seat. We were soon to be raised to sisterhood, and that night we stood attendance on the then Amyrlin. Her Keeper of the Chronicles, Gitara Moroso, was there. Every other full sister in Tar Valon was out Healing as many wounded as she could find, even the Reds. It was dawn. The fire on the hearth could not keep the cold out. The snow had finally stopped, and in the Amyrlin's chambers in the White Tower we could smell the smoke of outlying villages burned in the fighting."

Battles are always hot, even in the snow. Had to get away from the stink of death. Tam's delirious voice clawed at the empty calm inside Rand. The void trembled and shrank, steadied, then wavered again. The Amyrlin's eyes bored at him. He felt sweat on his face again. "It was all a fever dream," he said. "He was sick." He raised his voice. "My name is Rand al'Thor. I am a shepherd. My father is Tam al'Thor, and my mother was– "

Moiraine had paused for him, but now her unchanging voice cut him off, soft and relentless. "The Karaethon Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, says that the Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, where he died during the Breaking of the World. Gitara Sedai had the Foretelling sometimes. She was old, her hair as white as the snow outside, but when she had the Foretelling, it was strong. The morning light through the windows was strengthening as I handed her a cup of tea. The Amyrlin Seat asked me what news there was from the field of battle. And Gitara Sedai started up out of her chair, her arms and legs rigid, trembling, her face as if she looked into the Pit of Doom at Shayol Ghul, and she cried out, 'He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!' And she fell forward into my arms, dead."

Slope of the mountain. Heard a baby cry. Gave birth there alone, before she died. Child blue with the cold. Rand tried to force Tam's voice away. The void grew smaller. "A fever-dream," he gasped. I couldn't leave a child. "I was born in the Two Rivers." Always knew you wanted children, Kari. He pulled his eyes away from the Amyrlin's gaze. He tried to force the void to hold. He knew that was not the way, but it was collapsing in him. Yes, lass. Rand is a good name. "I – am – Rand – al'Thor!" His legs trembled.

"And so we knew the Dragon was Reborn," Moiraine went on. "The Amyrlin swore us to secrecy, we two, for she knew not all the sisters would see the Rebirth as it must be seen. She set us to searching. There were many fatherless children after that battle. Too many. But we found a story, that one man had found an infant on the mountain. That was all. A man and an infant boy. So we searched on. For years we searched, finding other clues, poring over the Prophecies. 'He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.' That was one; there were others. But there are many places where the old blood, descended from the Age of Legends, remains strong. Then, in the Two Rivers, where the old blood of Manetheren seethes still like a river in flood, in Emond's Field, I found three boys whose namedays were within weeks of the battle at Dragonmount. And one of them can channel. Did you think Trollocs came after you just because you are ta'veren? You are the Dragon Reborn."

Rand's knees gave way; he dropped to a squat, hands slapping the rug to catch himself from falling on his face. The void was gone, the stillness shattered. He raised his head, and they were looking at him, the three Aes Sedai. Their faces were serene, smooth as unruffled ponds, but their eyes did not blink. "My father is Tam al'Thor, and I was born ..." They stared at him, unmoving. They're lying. I am not ... what they say! Some way, somehow, they're lying, trying to use me. "I will not be used by you."

"An anchor is not demeaned by being used to hold a boat," the Amyrlin said. "You were made for a purpose, Rand al'Thor. 'When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth, he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.' The Prophecies must be fulfilled, or the Dark One will break free and remake the world in his image. The Last Battle is coming, and you were born to unite mankind and lead them against the Dark One."

"Ba'alzamon is dead," Rand said hoarsely, and the Amyrlin snorted like a stablehand.

"If you believe that, you are as much a fool as the Domani. Many there believe he is dead, or say they do, but I notice they still won't risk naming him. The Dark One lives, and he is breaking free. You will face the Dark One. It is your destiny."

It is your destiny. He had heard that before, in a dream that had maybe not been entirely a dream. He wondered what the Amyrlin would say if she knew Ba'alzamon had spoken to him in dreams. That's done with. Ba'alzamon is dead. I saw him die.

Suddenly it came to him that he was crouching like a toad, huddling under their eyes. He tried to form the void again, but voices whirled through his head, sweeping away every effort. It is your destiny. Babe lying in the snow. You are the Dragon Reborn. Ba'alzamon is dead. Rand is a good name, Kari. I will not be used! Drawing on his own native stubbornness, he forced himself back upright. Face it on your feet. You can keep your pride, at least. The three Aes Sedai watched with no expression.

"What ..." With an effort he steadied his voice. "What are you going to do to me?"

"Nothing," the Amyrlin said, and he blinked. It was not the answer he had expected, the one he had feared. "You say you want to accompany your friend with Ingtar, and you may. I have not marked you out in any way. Some of the sisters may know you are ta'veren, but no more. Only we three know who you truly are. Your friend Perrin will be brought to me, as you were, and I will visit your other friend in the infirmary. You may go as you will, without fear that we will set the Red sisters on you."

Who you truly are. Anger flared up in him, hot and corrosive. He forced it to stay inside, hidden. "Why?"

"The Prophecies must be fulfilled. We let you walk free, knowing what you are, because otherwise the world we know will die, and the Dark One will cover the earth with fire and death. Mark me, not all Aes Sedai feel the same. There are some here in Fal Dara who would strike you down if they knew a tenth of what you are, and feel no more remorse than for gutting a fish. But then, there are men who've no doubt laughed with you who would do the same, if they knew. Have a care, Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn."

He looked at each of them in turn. Your Prophecies are no part of me. They returned his gaze so calmly it was hard to believe they were trying to convince him he was the most hated, the most feared man in the history of the world. He had gone right through fear and come out the other side in some place cold. Anger was all that kept him warm. They could gentle him, or burn him to a crisp where he stood, and he no longer cared.

A part of Lan's instructions came back to him. Left hand on the hilt, he twisted the sword behind him, catching the scabbard in his right, then bowed, arms straight. "By your leave, Mother, may I depart this place?"

"I give you leave to go, my son."

Straightening, he stood there a moment longer. "I will not be used," he told them. There was a long silence as he turned and left.
Rand told Tam in The Gathering Storm that he eventually came to accept the truth, about Tam not being his father. The reason for that is clear enough. Not only was he overwhelmed by the evidence, but he had more important things to deny at this point. He denied being the Dragon Reborn until he held Callandor; he had almost come to accept it at Falme (overwhelming evidence), but continued to deny it for as long as he could get away with it. After he took the Stone, he got his first clear Lews Therin memory, and he had yet another thing to deny. As he says in the passage above, last bolded bit, he sees Lews Therin as 'the most hated, most feared man in the history of the world', so the reason for that denial is pretty clear from well before he starts remembering his past life. In book 1 ch. 3, it's made clear that Rand associates Lews Therin with horror.

And finally, his reaction when he first realizes where the strange thoughts are coming from:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"You have two of them," she said finally. "I thought I glimpsed... One is a woman, isn't it?" Her smile could have halted a man's heart and made him grateful. "You are beginning to consider my plan, aren't you? With those, together, the other Chosen will kneel at our feet. We can supplant the Great Lord himself, challenge the Creator. We —"

"You were always ambitious, Mierin." His voice grated in his ears. "Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!"

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. "Graendal said..." she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. "Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!"

Rand's face was like rock; he hoped it hid his shock. He had no idea where his words had come from, but it seemed he could remember her. A dim memory, from before. I am not Lews Therin Telamon! "I am Rand al'Thor!" he said harshly.

...

"Why would Rahvin choose now to attack me? Asmodean says he looks to his own interests, that he'll sit to one side even in the Last Battle, if he can, and wait for the Dark One to destroy me. Why not Sammael, or Demandred? Asmodean says they hate me." Not me. They hate Lews Therin. But to the Forsaken, that was the same thing. Please, Light, I am Rand al'Thor. He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power. I am Rand al'Thor! "Why not Semirhage, or Moghedien, or Graen—?"
It's a pretty easy-to-follow progression, up to this point. After this point, all effort goes toward the subconscious development of the voice, because the 'voice' is required to maintain the illusion that Lews Therin is someone else (when in fact, they are not two men, and never have been).

And then we have people like Luckers who still believe that Lews Therin was another person with a mind of his own - a supernatural phenomenon rather than a psychological one - even after reading TGS. :D

Luckers
03-09-2010, 06:28 AM
Hey! Luckers! I was surprised to see you are a Youngling, but I guess this is the wrong forum.

That was a very good summary of the official position. I am almost convinced !

In defense of Rand thinking it was weeks since the nausea began, I guess Gating here and yonder several times a day fighting the Seanchan can mess up your sense of elapsed time.

Hiya. Yeah, my online WoT time is mostly taken up with the FAQ update, modding the Dragonmount Wheel forums and certain other exciting things I'm working on with Maria Simmons. As such I don't get to post here (or on Dragonmount) as much as I'd like to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanDSedai
Hey! Luckers! I was surprised to see you are a Youngling, but I guess this is the wrong forum.

If he keeps posting, we'll probably Elderize him soon enough. But then, it doesn't really take much to get Elderized here. Just Tam getting around to it.

Lol. Elderization sounds painful.

And then we have people like Luckers who still believe that Lews Therin was another person with a mind of his own - a supernatural phenomenon rather than a psychological one - even after reading TGS

That's not an entirely accurate representation. I believe that a personality is the sum of experiences, and that the Lews Therin personality is a manifestation of those memories--retained in the greater cohesion of the soul.

In that sense Lews Therin is Lews Therin--the facet personality that ruled the soul during that particular manifestation of that soul in the pattern. He is distinct, and does have a mind of his own, and is not simply a fabrication of Rand's mind to speak on behalf of the memories manifesting within him due to the Taint's effect, but rather the personality those memories give birth to (and as such the same personality that resulted from those memories in their original incarnation).

I believe this is made clear at several stages--the fact the Birgitte and other Hero's are amalgamations of the various facet personalities that have ruled their living incarnations shows the personality is a result of the memories retained, and yet that Lews Therin has access to memories and knowledge Rand doesn't shows that he is not simply a construct Rand's mind has made of the memory seepage--instead the Lews Therin voice encapsulates his original knowledge and experience, and is thus the personality resulting from those experiences--and is in fact Lews Therin himself.

Semirhage was rather clear on that being possible--the symptoms of that disorder exactly match Rand, and the Taint is not a style of madness, but rather a catalyst for normal mental instabilities to manifest. This resurgence of an old facet personality is a normal mental instability, and the Taint has caused it to manifest--but that it is an insanity does not make it any less real. Lews Therin is Lews Therin.

Terez
03-09-2010, 10:41 AM
That's not an entirely accurate representation. I believe that a personality is the sum of experiences, and that the Lews Therin personality is a manifestation of those memories--retained in the greater cohesion of the soul.
That doesn't make any sense, though. First of all, it doesn't make sense because as soon as Rand started getting Lews Therin's memories, then those memories became a part of his experiences. They affected his personality, quite a bit. The same should have happened with 'Lews Therin', since the memories supposedly flowed both ways. The only thing that maintained the illusion of separateness was Rand's refusal to accept those memories as his own.

'Lews Therin' wasn't so much a manifestation of the memories as he was a manifestation of Rand's subconscious. That's why all of Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions were expressed through Lews Therin, while the memories generally came to Rand directly.

He is distinct, and does have a mind of his own, and is not simply a fabrication of Rand's mind to speak on behalf of the memories manifesting within him due to the Taint's effect, but rather the personality those memories give birth to (and as such the same personality that resulted from those memories in their original incarnation).
The memories weren't a fabrication at all, but the illusion of separateness was certainly a fabrication. This is made unbelievably clear at the end of TGS, and it was made pretty damn clear before, as well.

Luckers
03-09-2010, 10:59 AM
That doesn't make any sense, though. First of all, it doesn't make sense because as soon as Rand started getting Lews Therin's memories, then those memories became a part of his experiences. They affected his personality, quite a bit. The same should have happened with 'Lews Therin', since the memories supposedly flowed both ways. The only thing that maintained the illusion of separateness was Rand's refusal to accept those memories as his own.


They did become a part of his experience, and thereby informed his personality. For instance Rand has quite clear personal reactions to the Forsaken in tGS.

But that is distinct from Lews Therin--Lews Therin's experiences that Rand percieved affected his personality, but Lews Therin acts seperately on experience Rand has not percieved. So, whilst Lews Therin's memories are informing and altering Rand's personality, this is not the explanation of the Lews Therin personality.

'Lews Therin' wasn't so much a manifestation of the memories as he was a manifestation of Rand's subconscious. That's why all of Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions were expressed through Lews Therin, while the memories generally came to Rand directly.


I have no problem with the idea that the transfer between the two facet personalities was both ways, and that Rand's personal issues might well have been inscribing themselves upon Lews Therin much as Lews Therin's issues with Ilyena infiltrated Rand's mind...

But that being said Lews Therin maintained positions that were clearly distinct from Rand--or even from what one might percieve as Rand's subconcious ideals.

I've never reguarded this point to have much merit, and I know the Theorylander HCFF hold it as a major point of contention--I just don't see it.

The memories weren't a fabrication at all, but the illusion of separateness was certainly a fabrication. This is made unbelievably clear at the end of TGS, and it was made pretty damn clear before, as well.

Certainly they are the same soul. Different facet personalities, which as of tGS have apparently been reconciled and integrated, but the same soul.

That being said I don't know if you can state it as an illusion of seperateness--the division in the soul was unnatural and destructive, and sustained by Rand's refusal to admit Lews Therin was an aspect of himself... but that's not necesarily an illusion. They were distinct personalities, after all. The right and the left hand are of the same body, by that doesn't make the fact that they arn't the same thing an illusion, merely different appendages of the greater whole.

So to with this--the distinction being one of the hands was an unnatural growth, like a tumor.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2010, 11:28 AM
The memories weren't a fabrication at all, but the illusion of separateness was certainly a fabrication. This is made unbelievably clear at the end of TGS, and it was made pretty damn clear before, as well.Is not.

Couldn't resist the temptation.

JanDSedai
03-09-2010, 04:37 PM
Terez- No, I'm not an old poster reincarnated, but I lurked pretty regularly 10-12 years ago on the rawsfrj forum. But it wasn't until recently I got an uncorrupted e-mail and decided I had something of worth to say that I started posting.

I stand corrected; Moiraine did not tell the boys that on of them could channel. Her exact words in getting the boys to leave the TR: "in one of you," Moiraine said, "or all three, there is something the Dark on fears." And just before they leave Camelyn, Rand and Mat are talking about their dream: "Light, Rand, the Dark One knows me." "He said the same thing to me. I don't think he does," he added slowly. "I don't think he knows which of us..." Which of us what?
I believe that Rand does not complete the thought because he is unable, but that he is unwilling to admit the posibilities, even to himself.

It is no coincidence that the first time Rand dreams of Ba'alzamon is immediately after he hears Tam's fever ravings. Events in the "real world" mirror those on a spiritual plane. Which is why I think that the Dragonmount epiphany will have repercussions on the physical plane.

Much has been discussed about Padan Fain/Mordeth tainting people (Pedron Niall, Elaida), but the same people don't consider that Rand traveled with the unshielded dagger longer than anyone else (other that Mat). So who knows what effects this may have had on his psyche? There are other influences besides the link with Moridin that need to be considered for a complete understanding of Rand.

Terez
03-09-2010, 09:50 PM
According to Brandon, Rand has to worry more about the wound in his side from the dagger than anything else. It has been contributing to his paranoia.

JanDSedai
03-10-2010, 02:16 AM
Perhaps Rand did not die outright from the Shadar Logoth dagger because he had been "inoculated" by his exposure to it when Mat held it.
Oh, well, nevermind! I was just re-reading the part where Rand gets stabbed in the fog, and he survived because he got Healed about five seconds later. But remember he gets up out of his sickbed and runs Sammael out of Illian. He's been in a semi-coma for two days, but Rand is up and Travelling and crossing the beams. the physical toll on him must have been enormous, and any adverse effects would be be muliplied ten-fold. Maybe the linking effect would not have been so serious if Rand were not so physically depeted.

Terez
03-10-2010, 02:40 AM
Perhaps Rand did not die outright from the Shadar Logoth dagger because he had been "inoculated" by his exposure to it when Mat held it.

Well, we're not really sure if his exposure to it, when Mat had it, is even relevant - RJ heavily implied at an interview that the effects of the dagger are not nearly as far-reaching as Moiraine imagined.