Trollocs in KOD

[Nazbaque]

A year or so back Callandor made a good case for Demandred being the one who send the Trollocs after Rand in KOD. I argued his point in the detail that the attack could have been a rouse or a test and since his elimination of other candidates was based on that... Well it resulted in name calling and all that jazz like so often with Callandor.

I'd like to discuss it again and hopefully it will stay civilized this time (one can always hope right).

First I'll list those that could be behind the thing regardless of how we end up on the motives of the order.

The Forsaken alive at the time: Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal, Aran'gar.

Moridin has a tight leash in form of Mindtraps on Moghedien and Cyndane so they would have only done it on his orders. Otherwise all of them are candidates.

I think we can agree that anyone less than Forsaken wouldn't have been able to order Trollocs and Myddraal in those numbers. That leaves Shaidar Haran as the only non-Forsaken candidate.

Now some points on the attack itself:

1) It was a close-run-thing

2) Rand had two sa'angreal at his disposal, but didn't use them.

3) Logain and other Asha'man joined Rand's force near the end of COT. This might not have been known when the order of attack was given (before the third chapter of KOD)

Now lets cut down some candidates before we move on to different scenarios:

1) The third chapter of KOD where Moridin tells other Chosen about the order is written from Aran'gar's POV and it eliminates her as the perpetraitor.

2) Mesaana could have done it to gain back some lost ground, but Moridin said the perpetraitor was disguised as Sammael. Now Moridin could be lying for her but why? Why not leave the other Chosen in the dark on the matter, if he is covering for her?

3) Shaidar Haran would be doing DO’s bidding and I don’t think this came directly from the DO. Why would Moridin come up with the Sammael impersonation if the attack was ordered by DO.

So possible motives:

1) Kill Rand. The obvious one first.

2) Test. But why? To see how well Rand has trained his men?

3) Rouse. To get Rand moving. But to where and why?

4) To kill someone else than Rand? Who? Why?

Now the rest of the candidates in each category:

1) Graendal decided long way back that she couldn’t beat Rand head on so she wouldn’t do anything that might make Rand seek her out. Choice number one is still open, but Graendals plan seems to be to wait for Rand to off more Chocen and then take over.

2) Semirhage. Choice number three would fit quite well in her capture plan. The same plan I think removes all other motives from her case.

3) Demandred. Choice number three works here on the same reason it works on Semirhage as the two are working together. Choices one and two work here too and number four could be a childish not-allowed-to-kill-him-but-I-will-hurt-his-loved-ones. The problem here is that if Demandred did do it he most likely succeeded in what he was trying which eliminates choices one and four.

4) Moridin seems to be saving his confrontation with Rand for later. So not choice one, but would he have risked him dying to achieve any of the other choices.

So there it is as shortly put as I could manage. Considerin the plot I think Semirhage or Demandred did it to get Rand moving so Semi could trap him. Proof in this matter is somewhere in AMOL :p

[Mort]

Ah, this one. I remember I had a theory about it being Demandred when KoD came out. Still believe it's him.

There is either two cases. Either someone of the Forsaken (except Moridin) did it or Moridin ordered it and have another agenda by telling them he suspects (in not so direct wording) one of them did it.

I can't come up with a good enough reason why Moridin would play them like that though, so I'm putting it aside.

Other than that it's most likely as you said, Semirhage or Demandred.

Demandred. Choice number three works here on the same reason it works on Semirhage as the two are working together.

We've heard from Demandred that the only pact he, Semirhage and Mesaana has is that they won't turn on each other before the rest have been dealt with. Which is just a Non Agression Pact. That isn't really working together.

I think Semirhage has been planning to capture Rand for a long time, which would make her throwing an assault on him first seem odd.

That only leaves Demandred. He has a very good motive too. He would have succeeded too if it hadn't been for Logain and the other Asha'man, which he might not have known where there as was stated above.

[Nazbaque]

But why ignore the two sa'angreal. That Demanded would overlook that factor is unreal. All Rand would have to have done was grab Callandor and use the weave he used in the Stone. The fact that this was overlooked speaks against the kill Rand motive.

[psychomusician]

what about taim (i think thats his name, the guy in charge of the black tower right now)? i kinda got the impression that the was kind of a new forsaken. just a thought

i hope i dont sound like an idiot or anything, i'm not much for remembering such things, and i havent read the books in a while

[GonzoTheGreat]

According to Ishamael, "kind of a new Forsaken" is not good enough. It would have taken the real thing to give the orders. So only one of the Chosen could have done it.

Of course, it is possible that the DO made Taim into a Chosen. RJ has said he didn't, but the DO may not have informed the Creator.

[Weird Harold]

First I'll list those that could be behind the thing regardless of how we end up on the motives of the order.

The Forsaken alive at the time: Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal, Aran'gar.

The person who impersonated Sammael and sent the Trollocs intended to KILL Rand -- just as "he" intended to kill Rand and Min when "he" sent Slayer to kill them in WH Ch 22 Out of Thin Air

Heres' part of the WOT FAQ discussion of Slayer's mystery employer:

Slayer's current master uses a strong disguise woven of the One Power which makes it absolutely impossible to see or hear him clearly enough for any identification. Slayer believes that his current master is a male, and that therefore he is a male Forsaken, as no other man who could channel would know him, know how to contact him, or dare to command him, though he notes that none of the Forsaken he had met had ever taken such precautions.

At that point, the surviving male Forsaken are Ishamael/Moridin, Aginor/Osan'gar, Balthamel/Aran'gar, and Demandred.

(Sammael was an early favorite for the identity of Slayer's boss, but RJ's assertion that he died in ACOS means we must reject him as a candidate (see section 1.1.1), though there is an outside possibility, I suppose, that it may be a reincarnated Sammael. There is no evidence to suggest that, though, and one would presume that if Sammy had been resurrected, Moridin would know about it and be busily reining Sammael in, just like all the other FS.) (http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.04_slayer-employer.html)

Personally, I have always thought Slayer's Boss was Aran'gar because she's the only Forsaken Saidin channeler with a need for disguise.

Her POV and ingnarance of the Trolloc attack clears her of that though, so the next best choice for me is Mazrim Taim. He has ordered Rand's Death in the past without Moridin (or DEmandred) apparently knowing about it because both of them also ordered Rand killed although Moridin qualified it as "if necessary, but make sure you get his stuff."

Like Slayers' mysterious employer, The prime suspect for the Trollocs employer would seem to be Mazrim Taim, and Demandred, (or Moridin being two-faced just because he likes being two-faced.)

[Nazbaque]

Hmmm Taim didn't neccesarily know about the sa'angreal so that explains overlooking them. but there is still the matter of him being able to order the attack in the first place.

[Weird Harold]

Hmmm Taim didn't neccesarily know about the sa'angreal so that explains overlooking them. but there is still the matter of him being able to order the attack in the first place.
True, but Taim is the only remaining suspect with a real need to impersonate Sammael or disguise his identity to employ splayer.

Demandred might choose to use disguise or impersonation, the fact that he doesn't even use an alias wherever he's operating argues against it.

PS: Taim should know about Callandor, although he should also know about the buffer flaw, too. He wouldn't WANT Callandor because it requires linking with a female to use it safely and he considers linking to be a sign of weakness.

[Terez]

what about taim (i think thats his name, the guy in charge of the black tower right now)?
bad, bad sign there...

I still think it was Fain. I also had a memorable fight with Callandor on that, though it was mostly in private. :D

WH, why would you think that Taim thinks linking is a sign of weakness? I can understand why he wouldn't do it for Callandor, since that link requires a woman to control the flows, but linking in general provides all sorts of opportunities for the control to fall to him. He won't let his cronies bond random Aes Sedai, but I don't think he'd hesitate to link with some Black Ajah girls.

[Weird Harold]

WH, why would you think that Taim thinks linking is a sign of weakness?

Linking, bonding (which none of his cronies will agree to,) and any form of sharing simply doesn't fit with Taim and his minions scorn for Logain's training methods, disdain for sword play, or anything except Saidin strength.

In part, it's a recognition of a personality type common in certain military specialties -- like Special Forces, Airborne, or Marines -- that sees any lapse in total self-sufficiency as a potentially fatal flaw.

[Terez]

Linking, bonding (which none of his cronies will agree to,) and any form of sharing simply doesn't fit with Taim and his minions scorn for Logain's training methods, disdain for sword play, or anything except Saidin strength.

In part, it's a recognition of a personality type common in certain military specialties -- like Special Forces, Airborne, or Marines -- that sees any lapse in total self-sufficiency as a potentially fatal flaw.
I would have to disagree with that. Just the fact that Taim is gathering cronies around him shows that he knows he isn't self-sufficient (or at the very least that he follows orders like a good boy), and though I can understand why he'd think saidin is better than saidar, I can't see why he wouldn't link with some Black Ajah women, especially if he was commanded to. I don't think he would complain so long as he was in control.

[Neilbert]

Personally, I have always thought Slayer's Boss was Aran'gar because she's the only Forsaken Saidin channeler with a need for disguise.

Her POV and ingnarance of the Trolloc attack clears her of that though, so the next best choice for me is Mazrim Taim.

“That sounds like Sammael,” Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine. “Perhaps I was mistaken.” A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.

More than one person can use the same disguise.

[Weird Harold]

I would have to disagree with that. Just the fact that Taim is gathering cronies around him shows that he knows he isn't self-sufficient (or at the very least that he follows orders like a good boy), and though I can understand why he'd think saidin is better than saidar, I can't see why he wouldn't link with some Black Ajah women, especially if he was commanded to. I don't think he would complain so long as he was in control.
Taim is still recruiting for Rand and for the Legion of the Dragon as well as skimming the DFs into his "special classes." That doesn't necessarily mean that he likes or trusts anyone he's recruited for either side.

The problem with linking from Taim's viewpoint is that he is NOT in control -- the woman has to initiate the link and in some combinations must control the link. That means there is a certain point where Taim would have to trust not just another channeler, but a woman in order to establish the link before he could grab control from her -- he wouldn't give up control, so he wouldn't expect her to give up control voluntarily; he'd have the same problem submitting even momentarily to another man, but it's worse that he would have to submit to an AS for the link to be formed.

Like I said, it's as much a recognition of a personality type I've had far too much opportunity to observe in real life. All of Taim's minions tend to have the same personality type and the desire, if not the power/position to usurp MT as M'Hael. They'll follow a strong leader, but they'll turn on that leader in a heartbeat at the least sign of weakness.

[The Immortal One]

In part, it's a recognition of a personality type common in certain military specialties -- like Special Forces, Airborne, or Marines -- that sees any lapse in total self-sufficiency as a potentially fatal flaw.

Do you really think that? Most military types that I have met - mostly Royal Marines - are totally part of their team, maybe not being dependent on them but certainly willing to go to any lengths to help a team-mate.

[Terez]

Well....we are talking about Darkfriends here. :D

[Ozymandias]

Chosen who could not have done it:

1.) Aran'gar - her POV shows us she didn't
2.) Osan'gar - dead
3.) Asmodean - dead
4.) Sammael - dead
5.) Rahvin - dead
6.) Moridin - unlikely, he seems geniunely upset that someone sent the guys; he wants a(nother) personal confrontation. Besides, it hardly makes sense he'd save Rand's life in CoS and then kill him now.
7.) Semirhage - possible. Get back to her later
8.) Demandred - same
9.) Mesaana - doubtful, we know she's still reeling from her punishment by Moridin
10.) Cyndane - mindtrapped, no chance
11.) Moghedien - mindtrapped, no chance
12.) Be'lal - dead
13.) Graendal - possible, get back to her

Non-Chosen candidates:

Padan Fain
Slayer
Taim
Ezra
Other

First, lets start out by saying it could NOT have been Padan Fain or Slayer, or likely even Taim. It HAD to be a Chosen, because the Chosen are marked in such a way that demands obedience from all Shadowspawn. Besideswhich, neither Fain nor Slayer could make themselves look like Sammael.

So it had to be a channeler, and it HAD to be a Forsaken, because no one else would be able to command that distinctive obedience.

Which leaves us with:

Graendal
Semirhage
Demandred

I've discounted Mesaana for the above stated reasons, though it is possible she knows because of her position in the Tower (very likely the Black Sisters with Rand are communicating his position to the Ruling Council in Tar Valon). Now that I think on it, though, she's the only one who would know where Rand is. So add Mesaana to the list.

+ Mesaana

Which of these characters has the motivation to do it is another matter entirely. Graendal has always taken on an uninvolved stance in regards to Rand. She rarely gets involved, even indirectly, so I think that would make her a candidate for exclusion; no reason to think she's risking all her creature comforts to send a small Trolloc attack at Rand.

Demandred has the motive, he hates Rand/LTT, but this isn't his style. He was Corlan Dashiva for months and did nothing, doesn't make sense for him to send this very frontal-assault style attack, especially when then odds are pretty even. I don't think it was him either.

Semirhage is interesting. She might want to spur this meeting, get Rand moving, so she can capture him/be captured (whichever your school of thought it). I feel like not enough has been revealed about her character to judge (i.e. we know Moghedien keeps to the shadows, Sammael likes to pick a place to defend, etc etc) how likely this possibility is.

Of the four of those... now that I consider, I tend towards Mesaana, with Semirhage a close second, but thats only because I feel the other two make weaker cases.

[Terez]

First, lets start out by saying it could NOT have been Padan Fain or Slayer, or likely even Taim. It HAD to be a Chosen, because the Chosen are marked in such a way that demands obedience from all Shadowspawn.
Don't count out Fain because of that. He knows how to hurt Myrddraal. :D

[Nazbaque]

Ozy, Osan'gar was Corlan Dashiva not Demandred. Demandred is perhaps the only Forsaken to order the attack with the motive of killing Rand. But he is still a militery master mind. Why would he assume that the other side wouldn't use their sa'angreal?

Taim would fit here as someone to order it for killing Rand and overlook the use of sa'angreal as he might not know about them. But his promotion to Chosen level lacks evidence.

[Nazbaque]

Don't count out Fain because of that. He knows how to hurt Myrddraal. :D
But there is still the matter of impersonating Sammael, why would Moridin cover for him this way and not simply leave the other Chosen in the dark so to speak.

[Weird Harold]

Do you really think that? Most military types that I have met - mostly Royal Marines - are totally part of their team, maybe not being dependent on them but certainly willing to go to any lengths to help a team-mate.

Yeeah, I do. I spent 21 years inthe Military (USAF) and it's a personality type that does well in the military with strong leadership but can be troublesome under weaker leadership.

In some ways it's a classic "pack mentality" but Taim's faction is a pack full of alpha-male wannabes.

But there is still the matter of impersonating Sammael, why would Moridin cover for him this way and not simply leave the other Chosen in the dark so to speak.

Fain's method of controlling mydraal isn't really compatible with impersonating someone with a right to command trollocs. I can't think of why Moridin would cover for Fain, especially when he's got Slayer out on a semi-permanent contract trying to kill him. I can't think of HOW he'd expect to pass of Fain's style of trolloc command as impersonating Sammael. :eek:

[Terez]

Fain not only has the ability to control Myrddraal, but he also has the ability of illusion from Mordeth.

[Enigma]

Fain not only has the ability to control Myrddraal, but he also has the ability of illusion from Mordeth.

Fain's method of control is more through torture rather that the outright abiltity to command shadowspawn that the forsaken had. He might disguise himself but I doubt the illusion would also carry the right to command.

Added to that Fain want's to kill Rand himself. The only way he would order something like the attack would be if he was sneeking in the back down intending to stab Rand in the back while he was busy fending off the attack.

Do any of the surviving forsaken suspect that Moridin and Rand are linked? I had a vague notion that Demandred had suspicions along that line but can't recall any scene so I could be wrong.

If Demandred did suspect I could see him taking the risk with the potential of killing two birds with one stone Rand and his chief rival (as he sees it) Moridin.

[Uno]

To complicate matters slightly (actually, more just to be argumentative), isn't it reasonable to suppose that Dreadlords (that is, Black Ajah/Shadowsworn Asha'man) can compel Shadowspawn to obey simply through spectacular displays of extreme violence? Presumably, they had to resort to this method during the Trolloc Wars, although sending thousands of Trollocs to be slaughtered by Rand and his associates is perhaps indicative of some method of control other than fear. After all, to make the Shadowspawn go to their almost certain deaths, you'd have to make sure they were more afraid of you than of the enemy.

[Ozymandias]

"Ozy, Osan'gar was Corlan Dashiva not Demandred. Demandred is perhaps the only Forsaken to order the attack with the motive of killing Rand. But he is still a militery master mind. Why would he assume that the other side wouldn't use their sa'angreal?"

Firstly, very true Naz, my mistake. Scratch that point... though it still seems out of character for Demandred.

And Uno, it isn't reasonable. We know that most Shadowspawn were created with a necessary compulsion to serve the Forsaken. The gholam, myrdraal, and trollocs were all made to obey certain people "the Chosen" from the moment of creation. How the Chosen are marked is a matter of opinion, though it seems reasonable to assume those black cords Rand is so fond of cutting are the DO's mark of favor. In any case, Padan Fain would have found it difficult to convince 100,000 Trollocs and Myrdraal, I feel.

I think the mastermind has to be someone who can expect unfailing obedience. That means a Chosen.

[Yuri33]

I can't rule out Fain, but from what I remember, I don't think he would have the ability to control such a massive amount of Shadowspawn. He can control Myddraal, but he controls them through intimidation and torture, a few Mydraal at a time. The size and scope of the attack, the shear number of Myddraals involved, seems at odds with his methods. Disguising himself is also at odds with his methods as well. Perhaps he used the disguise to get around the limitation in numbers that torture\intimidation imposes. I don't have any strong feelings if it was Fain, but the conditions surrounding the attack seem a bit off if it was him.

As far as motivation, getting Rand to act doesn't seem to fit correctly either. After all, did Rand move more quickly because of the attack? He had some concerns that he could be tracked, which caused him to disguise himself a bit in Tear, but I don't think he acted any quicker or more decisively as a result of the attack. If that was the goal, it was a rather wasteful attempt.

I believe the primary motive was to kill Rand. Logain and co showing up just in time foiled the attempt. Things get more complicated with the sa'angreal, but perhaps the attacker had a little intel on the situation (there are DFs among those at Tear). Cadsuane had the sa'angreal tucked away some place safely and probably out of the way. Rand never thought for one minute about using either sa'angreal during the attack. Considering how things went down, it's possible that the attacker thought they had enough of the element of surprise to get the job done. Maybe it speaks to the lack of tactical experience of the attacker.

[Uno]

Well, you may disagree in this particular case, of course, but I don't see how you can say that it's not reasonable. After all, Dreadlords did command armies of Shadowspawn during the Trolloc Wars, in spite of their obvious lack of innate control of these creatures. It's clearly possible for humans other than the Chosen to force Shadowspawn to obey their will.

[Yuri33]

Dreadlords did command armies of Shadowspawn during the Trolloc Wars, in spite of their obvious lack of innate control of these creatures

There were many more Chosen back then, and I'm sure those Dreadlords were acting on behalf of a patron Chosen.

If Taim has a patron, it was either Sammael or Moridin himself, both whom I think we can reasonably rule out.

[Uno]

There were many more Chosen back then, and I'm sure those Dreadlords were acting on behalf of a patron Chosen.

There was only one Chosen active during the Trolloc Wars, and that was Ishamael, the others being still bound. Ishamael had one of his 40-year periods of freedom during the Trolloc Wars, but the era of conflict lasted three centuries, meaning that most of the time there was no Chosen enjoying overall command of the Shadow' forces.

[Ozymandias]

Well, you may disagree in this particular case, of course, but I don't see how you can say that it's not reasonable. After all, Dreadlords did command armies of Shadowspawn during the Trolloc Wars, in spite of their obvious lack of innate control of these creatures. It's clearly possible for humans other than the Chosen to force Shadowspawn to obey their will.

Well we have strong evidence to support the idea that Ishamael was commanding these armies for a significant portion of the Trolloc Wars, and even if he wasn't, Trollocs love to kill, it wouldn't have taken much urging to get them to attack. During a 350 year period of warfare, Black Ajah Dreadlords would have been able to come into the open and take command; in today's world, they have to secrete themselves and are not able to openly command. Whereas traveling the Ways very well may have required a larger command presence, as we only have evidence of it when one of the Chosen is doing the commanding. Or one of their assigned lieutenants (Slayer).

[Uno]

Well we have strong evidence to support the idea that Ishamael was commanding these armies for a significant portion of the Trolloc Wars, and even if he wasn't, Trollocs love to kill, it wouldn't have taken much urging to get them to attack. During a 350 year period of warfare, Black Ajah Dreadlords would have been able to come into the open and take command; in today's world, they have to secrete themselves and are not able to openly command. Whereas traveling the Ways very well may have required a larger command presence, as we only have evidence of it when one of the Chosen is doing the commanding. Or one of their assigned lieutenants (Slayer).

Getting Trollocs to kill is one thing, organizing them into armies is another matter entirely. At any rate, Ishamael was free for a mere 40 years, while the Trolloc Wars lasted for three centuries. You could still command an army of Trollocs in screcy from society at large later in the Third Age. After all, it's not like you'd advertise your position as commanding general in the local papers, and no one outside of the Shadow hierarchy really sees much of the inner workings of the Dark One's war machine. What you could probably not do is keep it a secert from Moridin, which is really why a Chosen was in all likelihood the mastermind behind this attack, a fact I'm not really seriously disputing.

[Terez]

Fain's method of control is more through torture rather that the outright abiltity to command shadowspawn that the forsaken had. Fain's abilities were barely budding when he had the Fade in The Shadow Rising, and this was at a time when he was separated from the dagger.
He might disguise himself but I doubt the illusion would also carry the right to command. The illusion doesn't have to carry the right to command - it only needs to give the Fade being questioned a loophole in the compelled obedience when Moridin questions it.

Added to that Fain want's to kill Rand himself. Fain wants Rand dead, so that he can be free from the ingrained need to hunt him. Yeah, he wants to kill him with his own hands, and less willing to compromise than a sane person would be, but he sent his Whitecloaks to kill Rand in Caemlyn. He said it was a test, and that he would have been extremely unhappy if they had been successful, but everything that went down indicates that he ordered them to kill Rand.

The only way he would order something like the attack would be if he was sneeking in the back down intending to stab Rand in the back while he was busy fending off the attack. Yet he didn't go to Caemlyn with his Whitecloaks.

Do any of the surviving forsaken suspect that Moridin and Rand are linked? I had a vague notion that Demandred had suspicions along that line but can't recall any scene so I could be wrong. There's no reason to think that any of them know, and pretty good reason to think that no one knows. Rand didn't see Moridin's face clearly enough to recognize him until Knife of Dreams, and though Moridin probably figured out what was going on much sooner, it's clear that he doesn't like to show any weakness in front of his subordinates, and it's hard to see how Demandred could have puzzled out just from the visible symptoms what had happened without having been there in Shadar Logoth when the balefire incident took place. You could say he was there spying, but it's a pretty slim speculation.

[Nazbaque]

Has anyone got any quotes on Fain using illusion? I don't remember him ever doing that. It's been a while since I last read the books so I might just have a case of temporarily misplaced brain files, but quote something on it for me please.

[Terez]

He used it in Winter's Heart, making Torval and Kisman appear after Rand and Lan had seen their dead bodies:
TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 33 - Blue Carp Street

Torval and Gedwyn came up the stairs with their cloaks over their arms.

"I say we aren't going near him until I know where the others are," Gedwyn growled. "The M'Hael will kill us if. . . ."

Without thought, Rand twisted his wrists in Cutting the Wind and immediately followed with Unfolding the Fan.

The illusion of dead men come back to life vanished, and Fain leaped back with a shriek, blood streaming down the side of his face. Suddenly he tilted his head as though listening, and a moment later, aiming a scream of wordless fury at Rand, he fled down the stairs.
By the way, I think this last attempt on Fain's part to get Rand personally probably discouraged him a good bit. He made the attempt in Far Madding because it was the only place he stood a chance against Rand, and he still lost. Fain wants to kill Rand, and he wants to do it personally, but he doesn't want to die.

[Yuri33]

You've got to ask yourself, though, where exactly would Fain have found ~100,000 Shadowspawn? In the Blight? It's not like he could just mosey on up there and commandeer them without anyone knowing.

[Terez]

How much have we seen of Fain since he first started working on his plan in The Shadow Rising? He needed something from that Fade...where have we seen the fruits of his efforts?

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 31 - Assurances

With a sigh, he seated himself on the edge of his bed. The lamps were already lit, more than a dozen, leaving no shadow anywhere. The tent was as bright inside as noonday. "Have you thought over my proposal? Accept, and you walk free. Refuse... I know how to hurt your sort. I can make you scream through endless dying. Forever dying, forever screaming."

The chains hummed at a jerk; the stakes driven deep into the ground creaked. "Very well." The Myrddraal's voice was dried snakeskin crumbling. "I accept. Release me."

Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would. "First, the matter of... shall we say, agreements and accord?" As he talked, the Myrddraal began to sweat.

[Nazbaque]

Thank you terez. I had forgotten that bit. But even if Fain in his madness is getting feelings of dread on his confortation with Rand I'd say he'd look for a capture mission first or some other means of gaining the upper hand rather than shifting straight to revenge through minions.

[Uno]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Fain could perhaps simply scoop up a few hundred trollocs and intimidate them enough to do his bidding, but this is a pretty large number. The same goes for Taim or any other channeling Darkfriend, I'd say. You'd probably have to receive a commission from the high muckity-mucks of the Shadow hierarchy to be able to get control of that many Shadowspawn, and you could hardly then just waste 100,000 of them without that being noticed by your superiors.

[Terez]

Fain doesn't have to control the Trollocs - that's what the Fades are for.

Keep in mind that Fain hates the Shadow nearly as much as he hates Rand. Stealing 100,000 Shadowspawn out from under the Forsaken's noses is just the sort of thing he would do, and he can use the Ways just as well as anyone. In fact, he was the first to lead Shadowspawn through the Ways that we know of.

Seeing as how Fain was able to kill a Fade in book 2, and control a Fade in book 4 without his dagger, and that he obviously had a plan for something to do with the Fades in book 4, I don't see why you guys are so skeptical.

[Yuri33]

He needed something from that Fade...where have we seen the fruits of his efforts?

I always thought the quote you posted referred to Taren Ferry.

Perrin hears about TF from the Whitecloaks:

tSR, The Tinker's Sword:
Bornhald's hot-eyed hate took them all in, but Byar danced his bay gelding forward with a snarl. "Do you farmers think you know battle?" he roared. "Last night one of your villages was all but wiped out by Trollocs! Wait until they come at you in numbers, and you will wish your mother had never kissed your father!" He fell silent at a weary gesture from Bornhald, a fierce-trained dog obeying his master, but his words had quieted the Two Rivers people.
"Which village?" Bran's voice was dignified and troubled both. "We all know people in Watch Hill, and Deven Ride."
"Watch Hill has not been troubled," Bornhald replied, "and I know nothing of Deven Ride. This morning a rider brought me word that Taren Ferry hardly exists any longer. If you have friends there, many people did escape across the river. Across the river." His face tightened momentarily. "I myself lost nearly fifty good soldiers."
The news produced a few queasy murmurs; no one liked to hear that sort of thing, but on the other hand, no one here knew anyone in Taren Ferry. Likely none of them had ever been that far.
Luc pushed his horse forward, the stallion snapping at Stepper. Perrin reined his own mount tightly before the two began fighting, but Luc appeared not to notice or care. "Taren Ferry?" he said in a flat voice. "Trollocs attacked Taren Ferry last night?"
Bornhald shrugged. "I said it, did I not? It seems that the Trollocs have at last decided to raid the villages. How providential that you here were warned in time to prepare these fine defenses." His stare ran over the pointed hedge and the men behind it before settling on Perrin.
"Was the man called Ordeith at Taren Ferry last night?" Luc asked.
Perrin stared at him. He had not known Luc even knew of Padan Fain, or the name he used now. But people did talk, especially when someone they knew as a peddler came back with authority among Whitecloaks.Bornhald's reaction was as strange as the question. His eyes glittered a hate as strong as he had shown for Perrin, but his face went pale, and he scrubbed at slack lips with the back of his hand as though he had forgotten he wore steel-backed gauntlets. "You know Ordeith?" he said, leaning toward Luc in his saddle.
It was Luc's turn to shrug casually. "I have seen him here and there since coming to the Two Rivers. A disreputable-looking man, and those who follow him no less. The sort who might have been careless enough to allow a Trolloc attack to succeed. Was he there? If so, one can hope he died for his folly. If not, one hopes you have him here with you, close under your eye."

And of course Luc was interested in this because he didn't expect anyone to escape. He wanted no word of the Trolloc invasion getting out, so that reinforcements could arrive. Perrin travels to TF in TAR and finds the whole situation strange:

tSR, The Price of Departure:
On northward he ran, to Taren Ferry, on the bank of the Tarendrelle, which he had grown up calling the River Taren. Tall, narrow houses built on high stone foundations to escape the Taren's yearly flooding when the snows melted in the Mountains of Mist. Nearly half those foundations supported only piles of ash and charred beams in that unchanging afternoon light. There were no wagons here, no signs of any defense. And no Trolloc camps that he could find. Perhaps no people remained here.
At the water's edge stood a stout wooden dock, a heavy rope drooping as it arced across the swift-flowing river. The rope ran through iron rings on a flat-decked barge snugged against the dock. The ferry was still there, still usable.
A jump took him across the river, where wheel ruts scarred the bank and household objects lay about. Chairs and stand-mirrors, chests, even a few tables and a polished wardrobe with birds carved on the doors, all the things panicked people had tried to save, then abandoned to run faster. They would be spreading the word of what had happened here, what was happening in the Two Rivers. Some could have reached Baerlon by now, a hundred miles or more north, and surely the farms and villages between Baerlon and the river. Word spreading. In another month it might reach Caemlyn, and Queen Morgase with her Queen's Guards and her power to raise armies. A month with luck. And as much to return, once Morgase believed. Too late for Emond's Field. Maybe too late for the whole Two Rivers.
Still, it hardly made sense that the Trollocs had let anyone escape. Or the Myrddraal at any rate; Trollocs did not seem to think much beyond the moment. He would have thought destroying the ferry would have been the Fades' first task. How could they be sure there were not enough soldiers at Baerlon to come down on them?

But Fain wanted word to get out, so that Rand would come running:

tSR, Goldeneyes:
From the thick branch of a leafy oak on the edge of the Westwood, Ordeith stared at Emond's Field, a mile to the south. It was impossible. Scourge them. Flay them. Everything had been going according to plan. Even Isam had played into his hands. Why did the fool stop bringing Trollocs? He should have brought in enough to turn the Two Rivers black with them! Spittle dripped from his lips, but he did not notice, any more than he realized that his hand was fumbling at his belt. Harry them till their hearts burst! Harrow them into the ground screaming! All planned to pull Rand al'Thor to him, and it came to this! The Two Rivers had not even been scratched. A few farms burned did not count, nor a few farmers butchered alive for Trolloc cookpots. I want the Two Rivers to burn, burn so the fire lives in men's memories for a thousand years!
...
He let himself drop to the ground, and scrambled onto his horse before looking at his companions. His hounds. The thirty or so Whitecloaks remaining no longer wore their white cloaks, of course. Rust spotted their dull plate-and-mail, and Bornhald would never have recognized those sullen, suspicious faces, dirty and unshaven. The humans watched Ordeith, distrustful yet afraid, not even glancing at the Myrddraal in their midst, its slug-pale, eyeless face as bleakly wooden as theirs. The Halfman feared Isam would find it; Isam had not at all been pleased when that raid on Taren Ferry let so many escape to carry away word of what was happening in the Two Rivers. Ordeith giggled at the thought of Isam discomforted. The man was a problem for another time, if he still lived.

I always thought the Myddraal in this last scene was the same as the one you quoted--tortured by Fain until he agreed to allow some people to escape at TF, against Luc's orders, to carry word of the invasion to Rand.

[Terez]

It could be that Fain's aims for the Fade were so small...but I somehow doubt it. I also doubt that he would stop there, with just one Fade.

[Yuri33]

It's a big leap from one Fade for one purpose to hundreds of them with 100,000 trollocs in tow. His powers are growing, but that's a hell of a leap. And the logistics of it are formidable for an outsider like Fain.

[Uno]

Not saying it's not possible that Fain could do it, but it sounds difficult in practice. If I remember correctly, a fist typically consists of 100-200 Trollocs led by one Fade, which means that to control 100,000 Trollocs, you may need 500-1000 Fades, and that's a lot, especially since Fain spent some time and effort in taming merely one Fade. Also, it's a question of simply getting your hands on all these creatures, and doing so apparently without being noticed by any of the Chosen or by Shaidar Haran.

In favour of the Fain hypothesis, however, one might well ask why one of the Chosen would bother to do it, since they should know that Rand might well just travel to another location, if pressed too hard. Fain has noticed that Rand tends to move around a lot, but I can't quite recall if he's figured out exactly what's going on with that.

[Yuri33]

one might well ask why one of the Chosen would bother to do it, since they should know that Rand might well just travel to another location, if pressed too hard.

1) The element of surprise
2) Knowing that Rand is unwilling to abandon so many people to defend themselves from the hordes of Trollocs.

[Ozymandias]

3.) The entire point is to get Rand moving.

We have several Chosen passively controlling events, and they all want him on the go for whatever purpose. Semirhage comes to mind. She certainly wants Rand to get a wake up call; she needs that meeting. And as long as Rand is languishing in the Tairen countryside, he's not gonna hop to it.

Even attacks that are bound to fail are sometimes deliberate. There could be any number of reasons.

The logistics of Fain commanding them, not to mention the difficulty of impersonating a Chosen, should disqualify him. I think Slayer should enter the mix; he clearly has the ability to command Trollocs (I've always wondered how Fain knew the guy was Isam, too), many thousands at once, and likely more, given the casualties going through the Ways. A guy that can command 15,000 Trollocs (rough guess) can probably manage to order around 5-6x that.

And Uno... certainly more than that 1 Myrdraal/fist. A fist is traditionally 100 Trollocs, with one Myrdraal; however, the fear of the Ways would almost certainly require a larger number of Halfmen to... incentivize, the Trollocs to move and attack in the face of the slaughter they faced at the manor house.

[Uno]

And Uno... certainly more than that 1 Myrdraal/fist. A fist is traditionally 100 Trollocs, with one Myrdraal; however, the fear of the Ways would almost certainly require a larger number of Halfmen to... incentivize, the Trollocs to move and attack in the face of the slaughter they faced at the manor house.

However, a Fade can put a fist of Trollocs under mind control, so that they have no choice but to obey its will. That should overcome any reluctance the Trollocs have of entering the Ways.

Also, I looked it up, and Moridin told the other Chosen that the person imitating Sammael had sent "a hundred Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways." (KOD, 147) While not necessarily an exact number, 100 Fades is certainly not thousands, and I don't really see any reason why Moridin would lie about this number.

Granted, I don't think a Fade can put as many as 1000 Trollocs under its direct mental control (I seem to recall that there was a numerical limitation), so that would actually require them do force them through the Ways, which is still possible, if difficult.

[Neilbert]

We know that most Shadowspawn were created with a necessary compulsion to serve the Forsaken. The gholam, myrdraal, and trollocs were all made to obey certain people "the Chosen" from the moment of creation

Trollocs have no compulsion to obey the Chosen. They were incredibly horrible soldiers until the Myrdraal were born for that very reason.

Keep in mind that Fain hates the Shadow nearly as much as he hates Rand. Stealing 100,000 Shadowspawn out from under the Forsaken's noses is just the sort of thing he would do, and he can use the Ways just as well as anyone. In fact, he was the first to lead Shadowspawn through the Ways that we know of.

One could easily make the argument that Fain can make use of the ways much better than anyone else. Fain is the only creature we know of who can command Machin Shin. Furthermore, one must consider that 100,000 Trollocs marching through the ways would very likely draw Machin Shin.

[Terez]

One could easily make the argument that Fain can make use of the ways much better than anyone else. Fain is the only creature we know of who can command Machin Shin. Furthermore, one must consider that 100,000 Trollocs marching through the ways would very likely draw Machin Shin.
Precisely. I don't think it's even necessarily true that Fain would have to command all of those Fades individually...it's possible that Fades will take orders from one another - I don't believe we have any evidence to suggest otherwise.

Of course, on subjects like this one, and Asmodean, people automatically get a hardon for one of the Forsaken...so no matter what we say they'll just end up squabbling over which one it was. :p

[Weird Harold]

Trollocs have no compulsion to obey the Chosen. They were incredibly horrible soldiers until the Myrdraal were born for that very reason.



One could easily make the argument that Fain can make use of the ways much better than anyone else. Fain is the only creature we know of who can command Machin Shin. Furthermore, one must consider that 100,000 Trollocs marching through the ways would very likely draw Machin Shin.
Do we know he can command Machin Shin, or just that he (personally and individually) can survive it?

[Uno]

I'm wondering about that. Since Fades don't have much in the way of individualism, or even distinct personalities, they presumably don't suffer from ambition, internal rivalry, and mutual distrust. For that reason, a Fade has little reason to distrust another Fade. If you were to attempt to trick Darkfriends, some of them would inevitably be suspicious, and might want clear proof that the orders came from Sammael (or whatever Chosen), but you might actually need to convince/coerce/trick only a few Fades, and they would then disseminate the fake orders from a Chosen among their kind. So, if a Fade tells another Fade that one of the Chosen wants them to do this or that, does Fade number two actually question the information he receives from Fade number one? Perhaps that simply doesn't occur to him.

[Terez]

@WH, the biggest evidence that he can command Machin Shin comes from the guarding of the Waygates.

@Uno, I would imagine that a Fade would take orders from another Fade, so long as those orders weren't contradicted by a Forsaken.

[Weird Harold]

@WH, the biggest evidence that he can command Machin Shin comes from the guarding of the Waygates.

@Uno, I would imagine that a Fade would take orders from another Fade, so long as those orders weren't contradicted by a Forsaken.
Is Machin Shin guarding the Waygates against Rand or is it just infected with Fain's ability to sense Rand's location and hatred of Rand?

Machin Shin doesn't strike me as sane/intelligent enough to be "commanded" -- no more than Padan Fain is sane enough to be commanded by anyone.

[Ozymandias]

Trollocs have no compulsion to obey the Chosen. They were incredibly horrible soldiers until the Myrdraal were born for that very reason.


No. Fades are a genetic anamoly, a kickback in the Trolloc breeding process. That much is explained in the books. And we know the Fades obey the Chosen in every instance; when Demandred arrives at Shayol Ghul in the LoC Prologue, he says something along the lines of "I am one of the Chosen, obey me!" Of course its Shaidar Haran, so no luck, but still.

Trollocs may very well have a compulsion to obey the Chosen. But there is a command structure. You couldn't have an army with just generals and privates; the ratio of officers to grunts is too low. Myrdraal bridge that gap. Trollocs made horrible soldiers because they go into a frenzy during combat, and 13 Chosen are too few to control millions of Trollocs, however powerful. Myrdraal and dreadlords and such bridge the gap and form a chain of command.

[Neilbert]

Is Machin Shin guarding the Waygates against Rand or is it just infected with Fain's ability to sense Rand's location and hatred of Rand?

Fain thinks about meeting machin Shin, but I can't find the quote. IIRC it's unclear if Fain commanded the wind, but the wind did recognize Fain as some sort of peer.

[Terez]

That bit isn't in Fain's point of view...it's from Moiraine after she questioned him. She said that Machin Shin encountered Fain, and Machin Shin fled. Machin Shin definitely picked up Fain's obsession with Rand, since it was chanting Rand's name along with the usual gibberish about flesh-eating when they found it guarding the Waygate. But whether it just picked it up from Fain or whether Fain commanded it makes little difference, doesn't it?

[Dragon]

Personally, I believe the Trollocs were sent by Graendal.

We know that she has a good Darkfriend network. Thus, she could have learned where Rand stays and maybe even already learn about his plan to invade Arad Doman (which would give her a nice motive to stop Rand).

Besides that, I think it makes the most sense that Graendal would pose as Sammael. After all, she knew him very well and is also certain that he must be dead, which excludes the possibility of vengeance.

It also seems fitting that Graendal would play such mind-games by posing as a male Forsaken, which probably immediately makes the only other male Forsaken - Demandred - suspect in Moridin's eyes.

Finally, Graendal isn't such a great General, which would explain that the army apparently wasn't that strategically prepared.

While Semirhage and Demandred are still possible suspects (the others are either ruled out or too unlikely, IMO), I would say the best arguments actually point to Graendal.

[Dragon]

And about Fain:
It's highly unlikely that he sent the Trollocs.

First of all, it seem logistically too complicated, risky and time-consuming for Fain. He has to find out where Rand exactly stays, then hurry to the next Waygate, then hurry to the Blight, find there some Myrddraal, who gather the army, and then return to Rand's location, so that he can be sure that Rand is actually still there, not simply Traveled away. A Forsaken has naturally far less problems to manage all this much quicker.

Besides that, while Fain has shown that he could conjure an illusion in WH, he didn't seem to have the ability to let the illusion interact with others, like giving orders. Also the illusion of a Forsaken certainly wouldn't have the Forsaken mark, so that a Myrddraal wouldn't be forced to obey. And,why would Fain choose Sammael, does he even know him? Again, this points to a Forsaken involvement.

Plus, Fain rather wants to kill Rand personally, not using an army.

Finally, many believe - for good reasons - that Fain is momentary chased by the Super Darkhound Pack from CoT.

In my view, the scene during the Forsaken Garden Party in KoD made pretty clear that the person who sent the Trollocs was actually a Forsaken, because also Moridin obviously only seems to suspect them.

As said, in my previous post - and also considering her reactions during the Garden Party- I think Graendal is the best suspect.

[Weird Harold]

But whether it just picked it up from Fain or whether Fain commanded it makes little difference, doesn't it?

I think it does make a difference to Fain as a suspect for sending the Trollocs. If Fain can command MAchin Shin, then Fain can move trollocs through the ways without losses. If he can't command Machin Shin, then to get 100,000 trollocs out of the Ways would take sending something on the order of 200,000 into the Ways.

[Terez]

I'm saying it doesn't make a difference because Machin Shin is apparently scared of Fain, so whether or not Fain strictly commands it makes no difference as to whether he'll be able to make it through the Ways without losing troops to it.

And Dragon, all of your points have been brought up and addressed already...what makes you think that they'll be any more valid coming from you?

[Weird Harold]

I'm saying it doesn't make a difference because Machin Shin is apparently scared of Fain, so whether or not Fain strictly commands it makes no difference as to whether he'll be able to make it through the Ways without losing troops to it.

The distance Machin Shin would staty away from Fain is clearly sufficient to ward 50-100 creatures in Fain's immediate Vicinity. Is is sufficient to ward six orders of magnitude more than that?

If he can command Machin Shin, then any number of trollocs is no problem. If Machin Shin just avoids him then he's limited to the amount of distance Machin Shin avoids him by.

[Nazbaque]

Terez he isn't convinced in that area and wants the convo back on the subject.

Concerning Graendal: From the start her game has been this: let Rand kill all other Chosen until she can take over. Why alter that plan now? Otherwise she is a great candidate, but this oddity needs an explanation.

Machin Shin: It might be afraid of Fain and it's certainly somewhat sentient but is it intelligent enough to think ahead and not go to a bunch of Trollocs and feast because it doesn't want Fain mad at it? Too much unknown to make valid assumptions on this. Another point to think: Is there a limit to what Machin Shin can "consume" in one go?

On the number of Myrddraal:
From KOD, Chapter 3: "At the gardens"
Moridin's jaw tightened. "I don't know," He said at last, reluctantly. He never liked saying that. "But they sent a hundred Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways."

[Terez]

Terez he isn't convinced in that area and wants the convo back on the subject.
When did we ever get off topic?

Machin Shin: It might be afraid of Fain and it's certainly somewhat sentient but is it intelligent enough to think ahead and not go to a bunch of Trollocs and feast because it doesn't want Fain mad at it?
You seem to be missing the point - none of the Forsaken are even hinted at being able to control Machin Shin. We know the Shadowspawn were moved through the Ways, and in the Ways, it's undeniable that Fain has the advantage.

[Nazbaque]

And I see you conviniently didn't include the part in my comment on the quote that would pretty much make MS irrelevant if it's limit is say 25,000 creatures in one go.

We have been on topic all the time but it's a rather large topic wouldn't you say.

[Terez]

And I see you conviniently didn't include the part in my comment on the quote that would pretty much make MS irrelevant if it's limit is say 25,000 creatures in one go.
I didn't include it because it's speculation that has little place in the debate. :rolleyes: Who knows how much Machin Shin can eat at one time?

[Nazbaque]

It's no more speculation than Fain comanding Machin Shin. Anything that can't be directly proven is speculation and thus speculation is the whole point of TL.

[Terez]

It's no more speculation than Fain comanding Machin Shin. Anything that can't be directly proven is speculation and thus speculation is the whole point of TL.
There is more evidence that Fain controls Machin Shin than there is evidence of any sort of limit on what Machin Shin can eat. TL is about arguments that are supported with evidence...not blue sky speculation.

[Nazbaque]

Before any arguments can be formed muc less proven there first has to be a mind that speculates thus TL falls appart without it.

And there is no proof what so ever that Fain controls MS only occaisions when he somehow interacts with it. Control is in a whole other city. And since every creature has some limit to what it can do Machin Shin has to have one. True it might be closer to millions making it rather useless to this convo, but in any case you can't just dismiss it as speculation when the whole Fain did it has more holes in it than a sieve.

So MS kills half the Trollocs. So Semirhage (this would fit to the plot best though other Forsaken are possible) sent twice what got through. Never had anything from the books that said MS didn't take it's toll on that army.

[Terez]

Before any arguments can be formed muc less proven there first has to be a mind that speculates thus TL falls appart without it. What's your point?

And there is no proof what so ever that Fain controls MS only occaisions when he somehow interacts with it. Did I say there was proof? There's a big difference between evidence and proof. My evidence is stronger than yours; deal with it. Also, as was said before, we have enough evidence that Fain would have an easier time making it through the ways with 100,000 Shadowpawn than any of the Forsaken, whether or not he actually controls Machin Shin.

you can't just dismiss it as speculation when the whole Fain did it has more holes in it than a sieve. Sorry, but it doesn't, no matter how many times you say it. ;)

ETA: We know that all, or at the very least almost all, of the Shadowspawn made it through the Ways safely, because the numbers that Moridin cites are in line with what we actually saw at the battle.

[Nazbaque]

So now you are just dismissing everything I say as something that has to be wrong because it disagrees with you?

MS or not Forsaken have the easier way with this. First of all there is no real limit to how many Trollocs they can send after Rand in moments. Fain first has to do his magic on at least ten Myrddraal to get the rest of the hundred along.

Then there is the matter of him searching Rand and executing this plan before he relocates. All the Forsaken have to do is use the famous ta'veren tracking method or get info from the DF with Rand's party.

Then there is the matter of motives, Fain has wanted to kill Rand himself from book one why would he suddenly shift his gear in this fashion. He might but where is your evidence that he did. He has tried and failed to kill Rand on a number of occaisons yet his thirst for personal revenge has never diminished. Why would the Far Madding incident be any different?

With all these speculations on your stand how can you call me down for making an innocent wonder on MS's limits.

[Nazbaque]

ETA: We know that all, or at the very least almost all, of the Shadowspawn made it through the Ways safely, because the numbers that Moridin cites are in line with what we actually saw at the battle.
All Moridin comments is "Thousands of Trollocs" if that's a hundred thousand it's two hundred just as easily.

[Terez]

MS or not Forsaken have the easier way with this. First of all there is no real limit to how many Trollocs they can send after Rand in moments. Fain first has to do his magic on at least ten Myrddraal to get the rest of the hundred along.
You just made that up, because you think it supports your theory. For all we know, he might only have to work his magic on one Fade.

Then there is the matter of him searching Rand and executing this plan before he relocates. All the Forsaken have to do is use the famous ta'veren tracking method or get info from the DF with Rand's party.
This statement makes no sense - the Forsaken would have just as hard a time catching Rand if he relocates as Fain.

Then there is the matter of motives, Fain has wanted to kill Rand himself from book one why would he suddenly shift his gear in this fashion.
For the same reason he did in Lord of Chaos when he ordered his Whitecloaks to kill Rand - desperation.
He might but where is your evidence that he did.
Questions are generally followed by a question mark, and my evidence is in the Caemlyn/Whitecloak incident. I dislike repeating myself.
He has tried and failed to kill Rand on a number of occaisons yet his thirst for personal revenge has never diminished. Why would the Far Madding incident be any different?
Because it was yet more evidence that he has no hope of killing Rand personally, even when Rand's advantage of the Power has been nullified.
All Moridin comments is "Thousands of Trollocs" if that's a hundred thousand it's two hundred just as easily.
I doubt it - Moridin said "a hundred Fades", which is pretty much exactly what showed up at Algarin's, and as Uno pointed out earlier, Fades usually command far less than a thousand Trollocs apiece, so if they started out with more than 100,000, it would be extremely odd.

[Nazbaque]

You just made that up, because you think it supports your theory. For all we know, he might only have to work his magic on one Fade.
And you just made that one up. Logic would first imply that Fain has to use his magic on every single myrddraal. My stand is that a Forsaken can fairly limitlessly order Myrddraal and Trollocs to do their bidding. Are you saying it is not so? Where is your proof if you are?
This statement makes no sense - the Forsaken would have just as hard a time catching Rand if he relocates as Fain.
Then let me spell it out for you. All Fain can use is his sensing Rand ability which seems to have the same limits as the Warder bond. He can go with "he is about there" then use the Ways to get closer and has to repeat the maneuver quite a few times. We don't know how long the ta'veren tracking method takes, but Fain's I think it's safe to assume takes far longer. Then assuming Fain can pull off ordering 100,000 Trollocs at all it will certainly take more time for him. So why would he bother trying in the first place with such a time consuming plan when Rand keeps moving about. Forsaken can execute the plan that much faster and thus with more chance of success.
For the same reason he did in Lord of Chaos when he ordered his Whitecloaks to kill Rand - desperation.
Are you saying that Fain went through all this trouble to test Rand? And that he would have killed the remains of that force had they succeeded, because that's what happened with the Whitecloak who only got close.
Questions are generally followed by a question mark, and my evidence is in the Caemlyn/Whitecloak incident. I dislike repeating myself.
Then you sure seem to go to odd lengths just to do it when answering to one post. And as for the question mark: it's a typo, who cares?
Because it was yet more evidence that he has no hope of killing Rand personally, even when Rand's advantage of the Power has been nullified.
Which is exactly my point. It hasn't affected him before. Why is this time any different?
I doubt it - Moridin said "a hundred Fades", which is pretty much exactly what showed up at Algarin's, and as Uno pointed out earlier, Fades usually command far less than a thousand Trollocs apiece, so if they started out with more than 100,000, it would be extremely odd.
All the more reason why it couldn't be Fain. Forsaken could make the Trollocs obey without the Myrddraal. Myrddraal are there to make them follow the orders they were given, but Fain would need a Fade per Fist to make the Trollocs obey which would total in a five hundred to thousand Myrddraal and not just hundred. And if you turn it arround and try to make the point of Myddraal being capable of ordering five times their normal limit. Why would they not be able to order ten times their normal limit?

[Nazbaque]

And now I'll present you another possibility. Just speculation but that doesn't mean it can't be so, just that it isn't so necessarily. Machin Shin is a creature that formed from the Taint, what if it's existance relied on it being there and was destroyed along with it.

[Terez]

And you just made that one up.
All I did was point out that we don't know how many Fades Fain would have to subvert in order to pull off this attack.

Logic would first imply that Fain has to use his magic on every single myrddraal.
No, logic does not imply that - logic, imo, implies the opposite - it would be too much trouble for the Forsaken to have to give commands directly to every Fade they use. Much easier to be able to command one Fade, and expect all other Fades to follow that one Fade's directions.

My stand is that a Forsaken can fairly limitlessly order Myrddraal and Trollocs to do their bidding. Are you saying it is not so?
I don't think I've even implied that there are any limits on Forsaken's ability to order Fades - that is what you're implying though. And I doubt that Forsaken order Trollocs at all.

All Fain can use is his sensing Rand ability which seems to have the same limits as the Warder bond.
According to what evidence?

He can go with "he is about there" then use the Ways to get closer and has to repeat the maneuver quite a few times.
Rand has been hanging out at Algarin's for some time now - it wouldn't have been difficult at all for Fain to determine that Rand was there at the time of the attack. All he has to do is wait for Rand to come back if he's left, and as soon as he's back, release the Shadowspawn from the Waygate. Which is exactly what the Forsaken would have to do with their ta'veren-sensing ability, which none of the Forsaken beyond Ishamael/Moridin and Lanfear have demonstrated any ability with.

Are you saying that Fain went through all this trouble to test Rand?
I'm saying he went through all the trouble to kill Rand.

And that he would have killed the remains of that force had they succeeded, because that's what happened with the Whitecloak who only got close.
None of Fain's ramblings after the incident change the fact that he ordered those Whitecloaks to kill Rand.

Which is exactly my point. It hasn't affected him before. Why is this time any different?
It has affected him before - hence the Whitecloaks in Caemlyn, and the fact that he tried to attack Rand the last time in a place where Rand's advantage would be nullified.

Forsaken could make the Trollocs obey without the Myrddraal. Myrddraal are there to make them follow the orders they were given, but Fain would need a Fade per Fist to make the Trollocs obey which would total in a five hundred to thousand Myrddraal and not just hundred.
There you go making stuff up again....

And if you turn it arround and try to make the point of Myddraal being capable of ordering five times their normal limit. Why would they not be able to order ten times their normal limit?
Why should we believe that they can? We have evidence now that they can control 1,000 Trollocs apiece, but we have no evidence to suggest that they can control more than that. The only reason you want to believe that they can is to support your idea that they started out with more Shadowspawn to counter the argument that 100,000 Trollocs could not possibly have made it through the Ways without drawing Machin Shin to them like flies to a midden heap.

[Nazbaque]

No, logic does not imply that - logic, imo, implies the opposite - it would be too much trouble for the Forsaken to have to give commands directly to every Fade they use. Much easier to be able to command one Fade, and expect all other Fades to follow that one Fade's directions.
The beuty of logic is that isn't subject to opinions. If the basis is that Fain has to work his magic on a Myrddraal to make it obey him, then the result is that he has to do this to all of them. Now unless you can offer more than speculation on myrddraal convincing each other... just takes Fain that much longer.
I don't think I've even implied that there are any limits on Forsaken's ability to order Fades - that is what you're implying though. And I doubt that Forsaken order Trollocs at all.
And how were Trollocs used before any myrddraal drawbacks happened?

Fades controll Trollocs with fear. Now that is pretty much how the Chosen controll Myrddraal. Why couldn't the Chosen controll Trollocs directly when they are what the dreaded Myrddraal fear?
According to what evidence?
So you want me to present it but you don't have to? Where is your evidence that Fains ability is better than the Warder bond?
I'm saying he went through all the trouble to kill Rand.
Fain - wants - to - kill - him - with - his - own - hands. Untill you find sufficient evidence on him changing his mind he doesn't have a motive to order the Trolloc attack. And the Whitecloak insident doesn't apply because it was a test and he didn't want them to kill him. He told them to yes but didn't want them to.
Why should we believe that they can? We have evidence now that they can control 1,000 Trollocs apiece, but we have no evidence to suggest that they can control more than that. The only reason you want to believe that they can is to support your idea that they started out with more Shadowspawn to counter the argument that 100,000 Trollocs could not possibly have made it through the Ways without drawing Machin Shin to them like flies to a midden heap.
So this insident is suddenly evidence that the Myrddraal can order five times their normal limit, when it is entirely possible that the Forsaken can order them about without any Myrddraal and they only sent the hundred along to make sure the Trollocs don't mess about? More so it's suddenly evidence that the same freak alteration didn't raise the limit to ten times normal.

Frankly terez you are now just trying to force the books to support your speculations.

[Terez]

The beuty of logic is that isn't subject to opinions.
If you believe that, then you're extremely naive.

If the basis is that Fain has to work his magic on a Myrddraal to make it obey him, then the result is that he has to do this to all of them.
Why? If a Fade can follow orders from another Fade, then he only has to work his magic on one of them.

Now unless you can offer more than speculation on myrddraal convincing each other...
Can you offer more than speculation that each individual Fade has to get their orders directly from a Forsaken? If not, then either situation is possible, and imo, it's extremely unlikely that the Forsaken have to order each individual Fade to get a job done.

And how were Trollocs used before any myrddraal drawbacks happened?
They weren't, really:

TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 7 - Shadowspawn

However, as an ultimate fighting machine, the creature was initially a failure. Trollocs simply did not have the crucial discipline, or the ability to take orders, that characterizes an efficient soldier. Instead, they had the instincts and drives of animals combined with the worst human characteristics and a very limited (by human standards) level of intelligence. They could perform only comparatively simple tasks, and they had extremely deceitful and unstable personalities. As soldiers they were usually unable or unwilling to follow orders unless driven by fear. Even then, if the Trollocs were more afraid of the foe than of the commanders that drove them, they often turned and ran, sometimes trampling or killing those commanders in the process.

Fades controll Trollocs with fear. Now that is pretty much how the Chosen controll Myrddraal.
You're making stuff up again.

Why couldn't the Chosen controll Trollocs directly when they are what the dreaded Myrddraal fear?
The reason Fades can control Trollocs is because they can link with them, presumably.

Where is your evidence that Fains ability is better than the Warder bond?
I never said that it was. All I even implied is that Fain has the ability to sense Rand's location, and that his ability is obviously enough to get the job done.

Fain - wants - to - kill - him - with - his - own - hands.
We know this. But we also know he wants to be free of his ingrained need to hunt Rand, and we know that he's ordered his followers to kill Rand before.

And the Whitecloak insident doesn't apply because it was a test and he didn't want them to kill him. He told them to yes but didn't want them to.
Sorry, but it does apply, because whether he thought it a test or not, he ordered them to kill him. If that counts as a test, then so does the Shadowspawn attack.

Frankly terez you are now just trying to force the books to support your speculations.
No dear, that's what you're doing. ;)

[Ozymandias]

The beuty of logic is that isn't subject to opinions. If the basis is that Fain has to work his magic on a Myrddraal to make it obey him, then the result is that he has to do this to all of them. Now unless you can offer more than speculation on myrddraal convincing each other... just takes Fain that much longer.

The point to understand here, Naz, is that its nearly impossible for Fain to capture and break all those Myrdraal in time. Could he do it? Yes. But A.) where does he find them? They're all in the Blight at this point, and not necessarily linked to their Trollocs, so it assures nothing. Secondly, it took him a considerable amount of time, days at least, to tame the first Myrdraal. Even if we assume he captures one, tames it in three days, and goes back and immediately locates and captures another, it would still take him a YEAR to arrange this attack.

I don't see Fain convincing 100 Myrdraal as reasonable, in the time given. Especially since its one thing to fight the one Halfman and capture him, and another to hold and contain 100 of them.

how were Trollocs used before any myrddraal drawbacks happened?

Firstly, the term your looking for is "throwback". I was a little confused at first, avoiding lexical ambiguity can help.

Secondly, Myrdraal were twisted into being almost as soon as Trollocs were. Secondly, in the AoL, there were enough Darkfriends and Dreadlords to control a reasonable number of Trollocs, at least until a battle frenzy took over. And they quickly found that Trollocs DIDN'T work well, without the Myrdraal.

So the answer to your "question" is "not efficiently".

Fades controll Trollocs with fear. Now that is pretty much how the Chosen controll Myrddraal. Why couldn't the Chosen controll Trollocs directly when they are what the dreaded Myrddraal fear?

Congratulations, you've once again proved that oversimplification to the point of idiocy is not only possible... it happens on a day to day basis. Its called economy of scale.

Lets say there are 10 million Trollocs in the world, and 10 Chosen. Without Myrdraal, your looking at 1 Chosen for every 1,000,000 Trollocs. The Trollocs may very well be afraid of the Chosen, say its Mesaana, but Mesaana cannot possibly maintain singlehanded control of that many individuals. Some will flake off, becasue they'll know that they'll never be caught or missed. This is why modern armies don't consist of a general and a bunch of field grunts; there are officers in between.

The Myrdraal function like NCO's; they make it more manageable. If a Fade can keep a tight degree of control over just 100 Trollocs, well, now Mesaana only has 10,000 underlings to deal with, a significant reduction. And given the overall intelligence of Myrdraal, it becomes even less necessary to micromanage, meaning the big fish like the Chosen can concentrate on the big picture, rather than making sure clumps of Trollocs aren't running off to eat a captive.

So this insident is suddenly evidence that the Myrddraal can order five times their normal limit, when it is entirely possible that the Forsaken can order them about without any Myrddraal and they only sent the hundred along to make sure the Trollocs don't mess about? More so it's suddenly evidence that the same freak alteration didn't raise the limit to ten times normal.


I haven't been following the argument, but at least terez is attempting to use the books. You've just decided to butcher logic and evidence in favor of some half-cooked rant about, as far as I can see, nothing.

Fades don't have a "limit" that they can control. There is a point at which they optimize they're usefulness by balancing control over their minions as well as maximizing the number of troops under their command/control. This is, as far as we know, accepted to be somewhere around 100+ Trollocs/Fade. A fist.

Its very possible that Myrdraal can control more, just not as effectively. If you have those 100 Myrdraal, ach controlling 800-900 Trollocs, you have an issue. When you ALSO have a Chosen there, you can very well picture it amplifying the usefulness of the Myrdraal. Combine the fear of the very powerful Chosen with the more comprehensive officer support system of the Myrdraal in place, and its reasonable to assume that the Fades could effectively control several times their normal capacity of Trollocs.

Once again, think of it in terms of a modern army. One general can't control the entire US armed forces on the field of battle. He may have a genius plan for the fight, but he would be unable to direct his troops because he has to manage a million of them at once. Having 1,000 officers in place means you can more easily control all the troops, but it also means that you have less ultimate authority and hope because you don't have the higher ranking general to establish legitimacy. Combine both, and 2 weak elements end up becoming a pretty solid combination.

Thats a terrible analogy, now that I read it to myself, but I hope the point gets across.

[Nazbaque]

Terez logic is logic it comes from the facts and doesn't follow anyone's opinions yours or mine. The logic I refer to here is the logic defined by mathematicians. If you think the chain between rules and results that is logic can be altered by your opinions you are the one who is naive.

And now I am tired of arguing with you when you refuse to even consider that your fain did it might be wrong. I'm tired of asking for your evidence when you don't even seem to think you need any. I'm tired of being called down on innocent speculations by a person who gets an idea and treats every small suggestive part of the story as proof when it supports her view and dismisses all else.

I close with that I maintain that Fain as a candidate is extremely unlikely. And untill terez grows up and admits she might sometimes be wrong I won't answer her posts.

[Ozymandias]

lol Naz I didn't even realize you were against Fain as a possibility...

but there are plenty of stubborn people on this board (read: all of us) and just ignoring someone when they won't listen never, ever works and is childish. If you use well reasoned logic and textual support, then you'll make your point; and if you don't everyone else reading will see that your better than the other person. If you don't have any real evidence, as neither of you seem to have, and just rely on your own interpretation of the logic, neither of you are going to go anywhere.

And just plain ignoring her doesn't exactly make you look like a really intelligent poster, either. I doubt you would have much success with the Great Stump.

[Nazbaque]

Stubborn is one thing Ozy. Has anyone ever seen terez admit she was wrong on a point no matter how much evidence there is? Take how she behaved on the Egwene thread. I won't ignore her I just won't reply. She resorts to insults and if proven wrong she just hides away without admitting she was wrong. I know I wouldn't do well in he Great Stump but she wouldn't be allowed in.

[Terez]

The point to understand here, Naz, is that its nearly impossible for Fain to capture and break all those Myrdraal in time. Could he do it? Yes. But A.) where does he find them? He doesn't have to find them, really - if he can control a Fade, then the Fade can find them. I don't understand this objection.

They're all in the Blight at this point, and not necessarily linked to their Trollocs, so it assures nothing. Secondly, it took him a considerable amount of time, days at least, to tame the first Myrdraal. He didn't have the dagger then, and his talents were barely beginning to surface then.

Even if we assume he captures one, tames it in three days, and goes back and immediately locates and captures another, it would still take him a YEAR to arrange this attack. That's assuming that Fain needs to control every Fade to pull it off - I don't think that's very likely, and no one has provided any evidence to show that Fades won't take direction from one another.

I haven't been following the argument, but at least terez is attempting to use the books. You've just decided to butcher logic and evidence in favor of some half-cooked rant about, as far as I can see, nothing. He does this in virtually every book argument he participates in.

Terez logic is logic it comes from the facts and doesn't follow anyone's opinions yours or mine. Sorry, but that's just wrong. Logic is extremely dependent on the perspective from which it is drawn. This is why you can have two people who believe opposite things, and both beleive their position is logical.

The logic I refer to here is the logic defined by mathematicians. If you think the chain between rules and results that is logic can be altered by your opinions you are the one who is naive. I think that your logic has holes in it, that's all.

And now I am tired of arguing with you when you refuse to even consider that your fain did it might be wrong. You're tired of arguing me because your arguments require so much convolution, and you're making stuff up again as well. When did I say that I refuse to believe that Fain didn't do it? I just think it's very likely he did it, and I'm trying to show why to all those people, like you, who refuse to believe that he could have done it. ;)

I'm tired of asking for your evidence when you don't even seem to think you need any. Where does that come from? I've provided plenty of evidence for my claims, while you continue to just make stuff up and pretend that it's evidence.

Take how she behaved on the Egwene thread. You have a problem with humor? lol...the way you behaved on that thread reminded me of....well, a young male with testosterone overload. ;)

[Weird Harold]

Fades don't have a "limit" that they can control. There is a point at which they optimize they're usefulness by balancing control over their minions as well as maximizing the number of troops under their command/control. This is, as far as we know, accepted to be somewhere around 100+ Trollocs/Fade. A fist.

There is a limit to how many Tollocs a Fade can Control but no particular limit on how many they can Command. I think everyone is forgetting the distinction:

A Trolloc dashed in and seized Rand's leg, forcing his foot free of the stirrup. Panting, he let go of the saddle to stab it. Instantly the hook pulled him out of the saddle, to Cloud's hindquarters; his death-grip on the reins was all that kept him from the ground. Cloud reared and shrieked. And in that same moment the pulling vanished. The Trolloc at his leg threw up its hands and screamed. All of the Trollocs screamed, a howl like all the dogs in the world gone mad.

Around the humans Trollocs fell writhing to the ground, tearing at their hair, clawing their own faces. All of the Trollocs. Biting at the ground, snapping at nothing, howling, howling, howling.

Then Rand saw the Myrddraal. Still upright in the saddle of its madly dancing horse, black sword still flailing, it had no head.

"It won't die until nightfall," Thom had to shout, between heavy breaths, over the unrelenting screams. "Not completely. That is what I've heard, anyway."

The Fade Lan beheaded above was Controlling a Fist. I don't recall any indication of that happening to any of the Trollocs in KoD, so they were simply being commanded in much the same way that human soldiers are commanded by officers.

(FWIW, Myrdraal are not NCO level, they're "company grade" officer level (2Lt through Capt.)

[Terez]

I missed this post earlier:

And now I'll present you another possibility. Just speculation but that doesn't mean it can't be so, just that it isn't so necessarily. Machin Shin is a creature that formed from the Taint, what if it's existance relied on it being there and was destroyed along with it.
RJ has said that this isn't the case.

Q: Does the healing of the taint reverse its previous effects? Or does the victim have to live with whatever he's gotten to that point and be grateful it won't get worse?

RJ: The second.

Q: When/ If Rand manages to remove the taint placed on saidin, are the people infected with it cured? or does their condition remain the way it is?

RJ: when/if the taint is removed from saidin further ill effects are stopped but what has already occured remains.
Also, keep in mind that the evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the taint are repellant to each other. Machin Shin is what remains of the taint, and Fain is what remains of the evil of Shadar Logoth - he and his dagger. The first time he repelled Machin Shin was at a time when he was separated from the dagger as well. With it, how much more would he repel it? And also, repellance, though certain, doesn't explain Machin Shin's new obsession with Rand.

[Ozymandias]

He doesn't have to find them, really - if he can control a Fade, then the Fade can find them. I don't understand this objection.

Right. But every Fade is an exact replica, in terms of height, strength, ability, and armament, of every other Fade. And its not like Fade's are particularly proficient at tracking anything. It quite a leap of faith to assume that one Fade will lead to a bunch of others. And assuming he can, what's to stop him from running off? How does Fain maintain control? Assuming your hypothesis is correct and Fain CAN order a Halfman to track down others, there are two options: either the Myrdraal is ordered off to find some of its brethren, alone, in which case it could very easily run away and Fain would have no idea which one it was and no way of getting it back, or it would have to lead Fain in, in which case, it could just bring Fain into the middle of a huge Trolloc camp from which Fain would not be able to escape. I don't really see a third viable option here, because any communication between the Myrdraal and another Myrdraal is going to require it to be out of Fain's sight for a little. At which point its scot free. In the Two Rivers this wasn't a problem; the Fade would have been between a rock and a hard place; it couldn't disobey its orders to stay and scourge Emond's Field, so it had to stay close, which meant within distance of Fain. When it returns to the Blight to get its friends, it will be far out of Fain's reach and in the heart of the Dark One's empire.

I just don't see my way around this, and as so much of your theory is predicated on Padan Fain being able to take control of a hundred Fades within a matter of days, or at most, a week or two, its a major hurdle.


That's assuming that Fain needs to control every Fade to pull it off - I don't think that's very likely, and no one has provided any evidence to show that Fades won't take direction from one another.


Well, as Naz said, we don't know one way or another, so its pretty flimsy ground. However, we DO know that the Dark One, or at least Moridin, has ordered that all Trolloc raids, and therefore, all Myrdraal (or the very very vast majority) pull back to the Blight in order to... do something. We know the Blight is quiet. So my point here would be that while Myrdraal may conceivably command other Myrdraal, their authority certainly wouldn't supersede that of whoever ordered all the Myrdraal to stay put in the first place.

And we know that the Myrdraal are very discontent with sitting around, so it must take a pretty high up authority to order this.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
There was water, of a sort, an inky rivulet oozing down the rocky slope beside a gray-roofed forge. Hammers rang inside, and with every ring, white light flared in the cramped windows. A ragged woman crouched in a hopeless heap against the forge's rough stone wall, clutching a babe in her arms, and a spindly girl buried her face in the woman's skirts. Prisoners from a raid down into the Borderlands, no doubt. But so few; the Myrddraal must be gnashing their teeth. Their blades failed after a time and had to be replaced, no matter that raids into the Borderlands had been curtailed.

Sorry babe, your argument just ain't doin' it for me ;)

[Ozymandias]

He doesn't have to find them, really - if he can control a Fade, then the Fade can find them. I don't understand this objection.

Right. But every Fade is an exact replica, in terms of height, strength, ability, and armament, of every other Fade. And its not like Fade's are particularly proficient at tracking anything. It quite a leap of faith to assume that one Fade will lead to a bunch of others. And assuming he can, what's to stop him from running off? How does Fain maintain control? Assuming your hypothesis is correct and Fain CAN order a Halfman to track down others, there are two options: either the Myrdraal is ordered off to find some of its brethren, alone, in which case it could very easily run away and Fain would have no idea which one it was and no way of getting it back, or it would have to lead Fain in, in which case, it could just bring Fain into the middle of a huge Trolloc camp from which Fain would not be able to escape. I don't really see a third viable option here, because any communication between the Myrdraal and another Myrdraal is going to require it to be out of Fain's sight for a little. At which point its scot free. In the Two Rivers this wasn't a problem; the Fade would have been between a rock and a hard place; it couldn't disobey its orders to stay and scourge Emond's Field, so it had to stay close, which meant within distance of Fain. When it returns to the Blight to get its friends, it will be far out of Fain's reach and in the heart of the Dark One's empire.

I just don't see my way around this, and as so much of your theory is predicated on Padan Fain being able to take control of a hundred Fades within a matter of days, or at most, a week or two, its a major hurdle.


That's assuming that Fain needs to control every Fade to pull it off - I don't think that's very likely, and no one has provided any evidence to show that Fades won't take direction from one another.


Well, as Naz said, we don't know one way or another, so its pretty flimsy ground. However, we DO know that the Dark One, or at least Moridin, has ordered that all Trolloc raids, and therefore, all Myrdraal (or the very very vast majority) pull back to the Blight in order to... do something. We know the Blight is quiet. So my point here would be that while Myrdraal may conceivably command other Myrdraal, their authority certainly wouldn't supersede that of whoever ordered all the Myrdraal to stay put in the first place.

And we know that the Myrdraal are very discontent with sitting around, so it must take a pretty high up authority to order this.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
There was water, of a sort, an inky rivulet oozing down the rocky slope beside a gray-roofed forge. Hammers rang inside, and with every ring, white light flared in the cramped windows. A ragged woman crouched in a hopeless heap against the forge's rough stone wall, clutching a babe in her arms, and a spindly girl buried her face in the woman's skirts. Prisoners from a raid down into the Borderlands, no doubt. But so few; the Myrddraal must be gnashing their teeth. Their blades failed after a time and had to be replaced, no matter that raids into the Borderlands had been curtailed.

Sorry babe, your argument just ain't doin' it for me ;)

[Terez]

Sorry babe, your argument just ain't doin' it for me ;)
Yours don't do it for me either. ;)

But every Fade is an exact replica, in terms of height, strength, ability, and armament, of every other Fade.
I'm not sure why you mention this.

And its not like Fade's are particularly proficient at tracking anything.
I'm not sure why you mention this either - why do they have to be good at tracking?

It quite a leap of faith to assume that one Fade will lead to a bunch of others.
Why? I'm assuming that they all live somewhere close to Thakandar, and that it wouldn't be any big difficulty to get at their camp. I doubt there's anyone guarding them, because I really doubt there's been any reason to mistrust the Fades before Fain found a way to subvert them.

And assuming he can, what's to stop him from running off?
What stopped the one Fade from running off in The Shadow Rising? In the quote I provided earlier, it's obvious that Fain realized the Fade would try to run off as soon as possible, and it's just as obvious that he had measures in mind to take to make sure that didn't happen. From the fact that the Fade did not run off, it's obvious that Fain did take those measures to make sure it did not.

It's difficult to address the rest of your post because you make the assumption that even one Fade under Fain's control would run off at first chance.

That's assuming that Fain needs to control every Fade to pull it off - I don't think that's very likely, and no one has provided any evidence to show that Fades won't take direction from one another. Well, as Naz said, we don't know one way or another, so its pretty flimsy ground.
I don't see how you can call my argument flimsy ground, but not your own, when we're both working with the same evidence that gives no more strength to one argument than the other.

However, we DO know that the Dark One, or at least Moridin, has ordered that all Trolloc raids, and therefore, all Myrdraal (or the very very vast majority) pull back to the Blight in order to... do something.
That was actually a long time ago, when the Forsaken were first released. Before the Forsaken showed back up, you have to consider that the Fades really had no one to answer to, so they just probably what they were ordered to do by Ishamael way back in the day - raids on the Borderlands. Now that the Forsaken are out, they're going to want to call off the raids so that the Shadowspawn are available to be used for more important things. Hence, they're probably all camped around Thakan'dar awaiting orders.

We know the Blight is quiet. So my point here would be that while Myrdraal may conceivably command other Myrdraal, their authority certainly wouldn't supersede that of whoever ordered all the Myrdraal to stay put in the first place.
If they're there to be used by the Forsaken, then being called by "Sammael" would not violate their orders.

[Yuri33]

TL is about arguments that are supported with evidence...not blue sky speculation.
...
Did I say there was proof? There's a big difference between evidence and proof.


You're going to have to clear up which of your claims are supported with evidence and which of them are blue sky speculation--I'm having trouble distinguishing them. From what I've read, there is little of what you advance that can be called evidence. You're approach seems to be offering a scenario, and then asking why that scenario can't happen (and then demanding evidence that it can't happen). That's not convincing at all. To gain credibility, you have to show that the scenario offered is the likely case. Otherwise, it's not much more valid than white noise.

As far as I can tell, your support of the Fain theory rests on three major arguments.

1) Controlling\dominating 1 fade can lead to control over 100 fades (and their henchmen): This argument isn't convincing at all, for two primary reasons.

First, there is no evidence--none--of an inherent hierarchy to the Fades. You could claim that there should be a structure in order to effectively run an army of that size, but that would be only speculation--with absolutely no evidence. It's true that it would impractical for the Forsaken to micromanage Fades (generals don't directly command field officers), but that's what Dreadlords and high level Darkfriends are for. Lan explains:

tEotW, A Place of Safety:
"Sometimes, sheepherder, stories make things larger than truth. Believe me, the truth is big enough with a Halfman. Halfman, Lurk, Fade, Shadowman; the name depends on the land you're in, but they all mean Myrddraal. Fades are Trolloc spawn, throwbacks almost to the human stock the Dreadlords used to make the Trollocs. Almost. But if the human strain is made stronger, so is the taint that twists the Trollocs. Halfmen have powers of a kind, the sort that stem from the Dark One. Only the weakest Aes Sedai would fail to be a match for a Fade, one against one, but many a good man and true has fallen to them. Since the wars that ended the Age of Legends, since the Forsaken were bound, they have been the brain that tells the Trolloc fists where to strike. In the days of the Trolloc Wars, Halfmen led the Trollocs in battle, under the Dreadlords."

That was the Trolloc Wars, so it's circumstantial. But it is something. There's nothing--nothing--that says Fades are controlled by other Fades. The balance of evidence doesn't rule it out, but definitely leans against it.

Second, can you name one organization--military, civilian, Shadow, or otherwise--where taking control of one mid-level commander can in any way translate to controlling 100 more (and their henchmen)? I mean, that just doesn't make sense. Any organization that could allow that would collapse quickly, because they would be subject to the weakest link. You can offer this as a possible explanation, but in the absence of absolutely no example of such a case, this is stretching the bounds of interpretation. The only scenario where you claims work is if the Fade that Fain controls somehow has alpha status among other Fades. Apart from my objections to a hierarchy among Fades outlined above, how exactly does Fain know which Fade is the alpha? How does he know which Fade to target? Every Fade he's tortured up to this point was only for the purposes of a specific task that could be carried out by that one Fade.

2) Fain's attempts have evolved towards sending out a massive army: This doesn't make much sense either. First, as has been shown multiple times, he desires to kill Rand by his own hand. You point to the Whitecloak attack as evidence of the contrary, but Fain's own thougts specifically state he never meant for that attack to succeed:

LoC, Letters:
Fain paced; he had to move. Al’Thor’s downfall had to be his doing – his! – not the Chosen’s. How could he hurt the man again, hurt to the heart? There were those nattering girls at Culain’s Hound, but if al’Thor did not come when the Two Rivers was harrowed, what would he care even if Fain burned the inn down and the chits with it? What did he have to work with? Only a few remained of his onetime Children of the Light. That had only been a test really – he would have made the man who actually managed to kill al’Thor beg to be skinned alive! – yet it had cost him numbers. He had the Myrddraal, a handful of Trollocs hidden outside the city, a few Darkfriends gathered in Caemlyn and on the way from Tar Valon. The pull of al’Thor dragged him on. It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads.

I don't know where you got the idea that this specific attack was in desperation, or that it was a serious attempt to kill Rand. The Whitecloak attack cost him significant resources ("yet it had cost him numbers"). He acknowledges that sending cannon fodder at Rand is both wasteful and counter to his desire to kill him by his own hand. In fact, he's even witnessed thousands of Trollocs failing to take Emond's field, where all they had were 2 AS and a bunch of farmers with pitchforks. The lesson has been learned--why would he do it again, especially against Rand and his superior protection at the manor house?

Second, of all the times Fain has attacked Rand, what's the only time he has succeeded in hurting him? His direct attack at the rebel tent in Haddon Mirk. It's what obviously led him to believe he could successfully attack Rand again at Far Madding (and let's remember that he specifically killed others who were trying to kill him because he wanted to do it himself). It failed. That's fine, but I don't know how you get from that one failed attempt to going with the complete opposite approach in sending a massive army. Even after the Far Madding failure, his only successful attack up to that point was still a direct one--all attempts to take Rand by mass failed. It makes the most sense--the highest probability--to continue trying to reproduce his one successful attempt.

3) Fain possesses the necessary abilities to impersonate Sammael: You stated that a Forsaken, if directly commanding Fades, would only address one Fade, who would in turn pass the command on. Whatever sense that may make, it is not supported by the facts as stated by Moridin:

KoD, At the Gardens:
“Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal, and they (my emphasis) obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen.” Moridin scanned around the chairs as though he could detect who it had been. Black saa trickled across his blue eyes in a continuous stream. She had no regrets that the True Power was limited to his use alone, now. The price was much too high. Ishamael had certainly been at least half insane, and he still was as Moridin. How long before she could remove him?

Whomever was impersonating Sammael addressed more than one Fade (there's no "a" or "the" in the highlighted section). We've only ever seen Fain work with one Myddraal at a time. There's no evidence--none--that shows he's addressed or controlled multiple Fades at a time. And let's not forget that Moridin (and Rand, as a matter of fact) specifically concludes that it was one of the Forsaken, which represents direct evidence against Fain being the culprit.

Next, it's true that Fain can produce illusions. In fact, he has many tricks. But Fain's thoughts on his special abilities raises some concern:

LoC, Letters:
Fain did not really understand the tricks he could work. A bit of something from the Dark One, perhaps, a bit from Aridhol. It had been after there, after he stopped being just Padan Fain, that the ability began to manifest, slowly. All he knew was that he could do certain things now, as long as he could touch what he worked with.
...
No! He had to concentrate. Concentrate! Clear his mind. His eye fell on the woman, moaning and stroking her gibbering son, talking to him softly as if that would help. Fain had no notion how to stop one of his tricks once it began; the boy should survive, if a trifle the worse for wear, once the thing ground to a conclusion. Fain had not put his whole heart into making it. Clear his mind. Think of something else. A pretty woman. How long since he had had a woman?

It's circumstantial, but apparently Fain doesn't understand exactly what he can do nor does he have complete control over it. It sort of makes sense when you consider Far Madding. Fain created an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn talking about what the M'Hael commanded. Why would he conjure that specific illusion? There are plenty of other things that would have more effectively distracted Rand (perhaps, ironically, making Sammael appear, as you claim he can do). Add to this the fact that, as has been mentioned earlier, the Forsaken have some special mark\aura\whatever granted by the DO that commands obedience from Shadowspawn, something that Fain clearly does not possess (he has to torture Fades).

So which is it? If Fain is only commanding one Fade, it makes no sense to impersonate Sammael, since he could just torture it. If he's commanding multiple Fades, it goes against Fain's one-Myddraal-at-a-time history, and also presents a logistical hurdle in finding and controlling that many at once. Either way strains credibility.

Logic is extremely dependent on the perspective from which it is drawn. This is why you can have two people who believe opposite things, and both beleive their position is logical.

Logic is by definition objective. You're using the wrong vocabulary here. Interpretation is subjective, and much of what is done here at TL is interpretation. But logic, the stuff that has concrete proof behind it, is not based on a specific belief. That obviously means that little of what is discussed here is logical, since little can be definitely proven. If someone believes something in the face of logic proving the opposite, we call that person illogical. I don't understand how you can believe there's a subjective component to logic. I guess it meshes with your belief that all the major protagonists' character flaws are somehow equivalent in nature.

Fain as the culprit cannot be logically excluded, to be sure. Very little can be. But he remains a very unlikely candidate, given the verifiable evidence.

[Terez]

You're going to have to clear up which of your claims are supported with evidence and which of them are blue sky speculation--I'm having trouble distinguishing them. I'm not sure that any of them are blue-sky speculation, any more than the suggested scenarios for the Forsaken candidates are blue-sky speculation.

From what I've read, there is little of what you advance that can be called evidence. Then you're obviously reading my posts with a bias. ;)

You're approach seems to be offering a scenario, and then asking why that scenario can't happen (and then demanding evidence that it can't happen). It's more than that - I've given just as much evidence that Fain would and could do it than you guys have given evidence that any of the Forsaken would or could - I think more.

As far as I can tell, your support of the Fain theory rests on three major arguments.

1) Controlling\dominating 1 fade can lead to control over 100 fades (and their henchmen): This argument isn't convincing at all, for two primary reasons. Before I go any further, my argument doesn't rest on this at all - it's just a possibility. All Fain really needs to do is make a Sammael illusion that's convincing. I think that Fain's known ability to subvert Fades adds enough to that scenario to make it very plausible.

First, there is no evidence--none--of an inherent hierarchy to the Fades. You could claim that there should be a structure in order to effectively run an army of that size, but that would be only speculation--with absolutely no evidence. It's true that it would impractical for the Forsaken to micromanage Fades (generals don't directly command field officers), but that's what Dreadlords and high level Darkfriends are for. Lan explains: Lan doesn't explain anything other than that the Dreadlords were (obviously) above Fades in the heirarchy. Since there is no evidence of a heirarchy among the Fades, then there is no reason to assume that the Forsaken must micromanage the Fades, any more than there is evidence that they don't have to. Why is it so hard to understand that this helps your case no more than it helps mine?

That was the Trolloc Wars, so it's circumstantial. But it is something. There's nothing--nothing--that says Fades are controlled by other Fades. I never said Fades controlled other Fades...just that there is no reason for them to distrust each other, and therefore no reason that I can see for a Forsaken to have to micromanage the Fades when they could just pass orders to one Fade, who would then pass the orders to the other Fades necessary for the mission. Just because one Fade carries orders to another doesn't mean that Fade is an officer over the rest - these things would be meaningless to Fades. Dark One>Forsaken>Dreadlords>Fades>Darkfriends>Trollocs. It's really simple. ;) You keep saying that there is no evidence it works that way - but there is no evidence that it works the way you propose, either.

The balance of evidence doesn't rule it out, but definitely leans against it. You've shown nothing that causes the evidence to lean against it.

Second, can you name one organization--military, civilian, Shadow, or otherwise--where taking control of one mid-level commander can in any way translate to controlling 100 more (and their henchmen)? I mean, that just doesn't make sense. Any organization that could allow that would collapse quickly, because they would be subject to the weakest link. As I said before, we have no evidence of Fades having been subverted before. If they're impervious to it, then there is no reason to take precaution with them. You can't really compare Fades to humans, because they have different motivations than humans - they are "completely lacking in individual expression".

You can offer this as a possible explanation, but in the absence of absolutely no example of such a case, this is stretching the bounds of interpretation. Why? There is no example that shows the command structure you suggest, either.

The only scenario where you claims work is if the Fade that Fain controls somehow has alpha status among other Fades. That simply isn't true.

Every Fade (Fain has) tortured up to this point was only for the purposes of a specific task that could be carried out by that one Fade. RJ only revealed one instance of Fade subversion, and it was way back in book 4, so why did you word your statement as if a pattern has been established?

2) Fain's attempts have evolved towards sending out a massive army:

This doesn't make much sense either. First, as has been shown multiple times, he desires to kill Rand by his own hand. You point to the Whitecloak attack as evidence of the contrary, but Fain's own thougts specifically state he never meant for that attack to succeed I'm aware of what Fain's own thoughts state. I'm also aware that he obviously ordered them to kill Rand. No matter what he says about it after the fact, there is absolutely no evidence that he took any precautions to see that they did not actually kill Rand. It's very easy to judge from this evidence that Fain is mentally unstable (as if we didn't already know that) - he wants to kill Rand with his own hands, but he wants Rand dead so desperately that he slips in a moment of weakness and orders others to kill him, thinking they might have a better chance. It might also have something to do with the Mordeth influence - Fain's hatred of Rand is personal, but the Mordeth influence might make him lean sometimes toward just using any means necessary to rid himself of the need to hunt Rand.

I don't know where you got the idea that this specific attack was in desperation, or that it was a serious attempt to kill Rand. The desperation comes from the urgency of Fain's desire to kill Rand, and the idea that it was a serious attempt comes from the obvious fact that the Whitecloaks tried their best to kill Rand. Why is that so hard to understand?

The Whitecloak attack cost him significant resources ("yet it had cost him numbers"). He acknowledges that sending cannon fodder at Rand is both wasteful and counter to his desire to kill him by his own hand. In fact, he's even witnessed thousands of Trollocs failing to take Emond's field, where all they had were 2 AS and a bunch of farmers with pitchforks. The lesson has been learned--why would he do it again, especially against Rand and his superior protection at the manor house? 1. Because he wants to kill Rand, and 100,000 Shadowspawn have a better chance than one man alone.

2. Because he hates the Shadow, and it pleases him to subvert their forces.

Second, of all the times Fain has attacked Rand, what's the only time he has succeeded in hurting him? His direct attack at the rebel tent in Haddon Mirk. It's what obviously led him to believe he could successfully attack Rand again at Far Madding (and let's remember that he specifically killed others who were trying to kill him because he wanted to do it himself). It failed. That's fine, but I don't know how you get from that one failed attempt to going with the complete opposite approach in sending a massive army. Even after the Far Madding failure, his only successful attack up to that point was still a direct one--all attempts to take Rand by mass failed. It makes the most sense--the highest probability--to continue trying to reproduce his one successful attempt. I don't agree with that (obviously, lol) - I think that Fain would realize that every time he tries to kill Rand personally, the probability that he'll get killed trying increases. He got Rand with his dagger in Cairhien, but unlike most people, Rand survived. What does that tell him? He tried it one more time, in Far Madding, and ran screaming when all of his efforts weren't enough. In fact, it seems Mordeth might have had something to do with Fain's decision to give up - it seems he wanted to continue trying to fight Rand, but he cocked his head as if listening to someone, and then fled.

3) Fain possesses the necessary abilities to impersonate Sammael: You stated that a Forsaken, if directly commanding Fades, would only address one Fade, who would in turn pass the command on. Whatever sense that may make, it is not supported by the facts as stated by Moridin What Moridin says doesn't contradict my suggestion - if "Sammael" gives orders to one Fade, and the orders are passed on to other Fades, then by extension, "Sammael" gave orders to all of the Fades involved, and all of the Fades are following "Sammael"'s orders. Since we know nothing about how Moridin learned his information, assuming that his specific words carry the meaning you're implying is ridiculous.

And let's not forget that Moridin (and Rand, as a matter of fact) specifically concludes that it was one of the Forsaken, which represents direct evidence against Fain being the culprit. It's not direct evidence against it being Fain at all, just because they jumped to the most obvious conclusion. People's assumptions don't count as evidence.

Next, it's true that Fain can produce illusions. In fact, he has many tricks. But Fain's thoughts on his special abilities raises some concern I don't see how. For one, this quote is from when Fain was pretty new to his abilities, and there's nothing to say he didn't learn more about those abilities over time. And learning more about them over time is what I would expect.

It's circumstantial, but apparently Fain doesn't understand exactly what he can do nor does he have complete control over it. It sort of makes sense when you consider Far Madding. Fain created an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn talking about what the M'Hael commanded. Why would he conjure that specific illusion? There are plenty of other things that would have more effectively distracted Rand (perhaps, ironically, making Sammael appear, as you claim he can do). Maybe so, but the illusion that was used was a logical one for him to use, seeing as how Rand came to Far Madding specifically to kill those men.

Add to this the fact that, as has been mentioned earlier, the Forsaken have some special mark\aura\whatever granted by the DO that commands obedience from Shadowspawn, something that Fain clearly does not possess (he has to torture Fades).

So which is it? If Fain is only commanding one Fade, it makes no sense to impersonate Sammael, since he could just torture it. If he's commanding multiple Fades, it goes against Fain's one-Myddraal-at-a-time history, and also presents a logistical hurdle in finding and controlling that many at once. Either way strains credibility. Again, Fain has no one-Fade-at-a-time history. We have very little real history of Fain at all, especially since Lord of Chaos. Also, the illusion ability and the Fade-subverting abilities could have been used, one or the other, or in combination, to pull this off in many ways. It could be that there was no illusion of Sammael, and a subverted Fade simply passed along orders "from Sammael" to other Fades. It could be that Fain managed to learn from a subverted Fade how, exactly, they know to obey Forsaken, and taken advantage of that. I hate trying to say exactly how it was done when there's so little to work with...but I think the ability of illusion and the ability to subvert Fades is enough evidence that he could have done it.

Logic is by definition objective. My point is that everyone is going to have different ideas of what is logical. Again, what's so hard to understand about that?

Fain as the culprit cannot be logically excluded, to be sure. Very little can be. But he remains a very unlikely candidate, given the verifiable evidence. That's your opinion. You have yours; I have mine. Both of us think our opinions are the most logical. And I think you and Naz are both still mad about the misogyny thing. :p

[Terez]

A good clue to the nature of the Fade/Forsaken relationship is the way all of the Forsaken react to Shaidar Haran when they first meet him. Fades don't have names. Fades don't disobey Forsaken - ever. From all of the Forsaken, we get surprise, shock, indignation, and fear. Demandred travels into Shayol Ghul with Shaidar Haran and has a dozen strong pieces of evidence that Shaidar Haran is what he says he is, yet when they reach the Pit, he tells the Fade, "You may leave me now." That is how ingrained his expectation of obedience from Fades is. The quickest to figure it out was Graendal, but even she was of course very shocked at first.

If Fades have no individuality to speak of, and no social interaction whatsoever, then I can't see how it would be in any way necessary for Forsaken to micromanage Fades, and I can't understand why some of you are insisting it is the default position. If obedience to the Chosen is an ingrained part of Fades, then each Fade will of course know that, and have no reason to distrust other Fades. This doesn't mean that they're all buddies. They stay the hell away from one another most of the time, because they don't make friends, but they work together when it's called for. That's what they do. The only mention of Fades having to be forced to do anything I can think of is one, Semirhage's account of how she proved the Fades did not know how they traveled shadows, and two, Shadar Logoth. Beyond that, they are self-motivated - if their quarry is important enough, they will even cross running water. :)

[Dragon]

I think most people - of course except for terez - agree that it's highly unlikely that Fain was the person who sent the army in KoD.

However, who was it then? I presented the case for Graendal, others believe it was Demandred.

I think, besides telling us that it wasn't Aran'gar, RJ left us other subtle clues during the Garden Party. Therefore, in my view, one should try to analyze the discussion about "Sammael" in a sensible way:

After Moridin's comment that Sammael is possibly alive, Graendal opens the debate by stating:
"That hardly seems possible. He must be dead".

Thus, she immediately- maybe even in a clever way - implies that another Forsaken must have played Sammael (also Aran'gar has this suspicion later).

Then it's said that Graendal conceals everything and places herself very closely to Aran'gar (perhaps to avoid that Zomaran can precisely read her mind?). Interestingly, from this moment on, Graendal just plays a passive, observant role in the conversation.

Demandred immediately agrees with Graendal that Sammael must be dead; that simply seems to make sense to him (and as we readers know and RJ confirmed, he is right).

But after Demandred hears from Moridin that the person sent a Shadowspawn army, he apparently realizes that this would actually make him the most likely suspect in Moridin's eyes (because he is the only other real male Forsaken and was a General as well).

That's IMO the reason, why Demandred suddenly states that he was probably mistaken (although he hates to admit such things) and says that Sammael must truly be alive.

However, at this point even Aran'gar notes that Demandred's reaction is strange & maybe suspicious.

If my theory is right, that manipulation, namely to achieve that Demandred is put on the defensive, might have been Graendal's aim from the start and the very reason why she posed as "Sammael".

The clever Graendal would certainly like to further provoke strife between Moridin and Demandred, so that one of them might even kill the other. That would mean less rivals.

And if the Trolloc army would even succeed in killing Rand or at least weakening his side, before the invasion of Arad Doman, so much the better.

[Ozymandias]

I'm not sure why you mention this.

Neither am I... I think I meant to say something related to this and got lost in my own mind, so ignore it.

Why? I'm assuming that they all live somewhere close to Thakandar, and that it wouldn't be any big difficulty to get at their camp. I doubt there's anyone guarding them, because I really doubt there's been any reason to mistrust the Fades before Fain found a way to subvert them.

They don't. Actually, we know that the Trollocs are scattered in numerous smaller camps throughout the Blight, and I think its reasonable to assume that the Fades are scattered with them, maybe a dozen or so in each camp to maintain order. Which merely reinforces the idea that it would be difficult to collect an adequate number of Fades in the short period of time Fain had to arrange this attack.

What stopped the one Fade from running off in The Shadow Rising? In the quote I provided earlier, it's obvious that Fain realized the Fade would try to run off as soon as possible, and it's just as obvious that he had measures in mind to take to make sure that didn't happen. From the fact that the Fade did not run off, it's obvious that Fain did take those measures to make sure it did not.

I already addressed this... you must have missed it in the overall rambling nature of my posts. In the Two Rivers, Fain was given a perfect opportunity to control his Fade. The Fade had 2 masters; Fain and Slayer. The only way to escape Fain and run away would be to leave the Two Rivers. But leaving the Two Rivers would mean betraying Slayer and the Shadow, and therefore condemning it to death or worse anyways. So it was a unique situation in which escaping Fain meant betraying the Shadow. In an instance where Fain captures a Myrdraal out of the Blight, it can run away and go back to its masters, because that wouldn't constitute the same dereliction of duty as it would have for the Two River's Myrdraal. This is a key difference, which you seem to have missed.

My question for you would be, what possible means could Fain have that would compel a Myrdraal to obey at long distance. We have no evidence of this at any other time. We see Fain control Trollocs/Myrdraal on 3 occasions, I believe: In tGH, when they're directly under his command, in tSR, when they're within a few days ride and unable to wander off to a point where Fain couldn't find them in a few days, and in the instance where Fain talks about his "tricks" and then takes that woman, I forget the book, but you just provided the quote (or someone did). And in that instance, the Myrdraal was again, directly under his supervision.

I'm saying that if a Myrdraal is sent, on its own, into the Blight, at the heart of the Shadow's power, among millions of Trollocs and thousands of other Myrdraal, we have no evidence of any means that Fain can utilize to maintain control over the Fade at that distance. Every other example we have is of Fain keeping a direct, watchful eye on said Myrdraal.

And given the absence of evidence in a world where we are given evidence when people can control Shadowspawn, we have to err on the side of caution and say its not possible. In this case, the lack of evidence makes a more compelling argument against such abilities, simply because we are given evidence that such abilities are possible for other characters.

I don't see how you can call my argument flimsy ground, but not your own, when we're both working with the same evidence that gives no more strength to one argument than the other.

I was actually making the point that if we don't know either way, BOTH arguments are flimsy ground... apparently that came out wrong. However, the sheer logistics of it imply that Fain cannot control such numbers; I think its reasonable to assume that controlling 100 individual Fades would take too long, if its even possible; he would need some method of compelling the Myrdraal to do what he wants, and your proposition is that its done by having one Myrdraal order the others about, which we will soon see is not possible.

That was actually a long time ago, when the Forsaken were first released. Before the Forsaken showed back up, you have to consider that the Fades really had no one to answer to, so they just probably what they were ordered to do by Ishamael way back in the day - raids on the Borderlands. Now that the Forsaken are out, they're going to want to call off the raids so that the Shadowspawn are available to be used for more important things. Hence, they're probably all camped around Thakan'dar awaiting orders.

Thank you for proving my point, Terez. The Chosen have called off all the raids so they can marshal their forces and enact their grand strategy or whatever. This means the Chosen, the 2nd most important authorities in the Shadow's command structure (and for all intents and purposes, the highest, as I doubt the Dark One is bothering to communicate orders to rank and file Fades), have ordered the Myrdraal to stay put, despite the obvious displeasure of the Fades with those orders.

Therefore, the entire concept that a Myrdraal could order a Myrdraal out of the Blight and into Tear is bunk. In a different situation, maybe, but aside from Shaidar Haran, there is no way that the authority of a Fade would be enough to countermand the orders of the Chosen.

If they're there to be used by the Forsaken, then being called by "Sammael" would not violate their orders.

Lol... and it comes full circle, right back to the question of who is impersonating Sammael? I don't think Fain can. The Chosen have a special affinity with the Dark One (those cords, I presume) which marks them. I would think, logically, that this is what entitles them to the obedience they demand from Shadowspawn. Obviously Shadowspawn do not know what all the Chosen look like, there must be some common denominator they all have which distinguishes them from other common Darkfriends, and I think this connection is it.

The point being, Fain would need this connection, this authority, in order to successfully impersonate Sammael. And thats assuming he even has the ability to mask himself to resemble Sammael, which is dubious statement, at best. So my question, Terez, is thus: where do we find evidence that says Padan Fain is to convince ANYONE, much less Myrdraal, who are very intelligent, that he is one of the Chosen?

In fact, I think the very fact that Padan Fain would have to gain control over that first Myrdraal through pain and torture would be evidence enough that he's not Sammael, as a true Chosen would just order the Fade around and not even give a second thought to whether he was being obeyed, just as Demandred did (repeatedly) as you so rightly pointed out.

[Ozymandias]

Terez, the problem is your theory is predicated a lot on the idea that Fain can create a convincing replica of Sammael, which is impossible. We know that its something special about the Chosen which demands the obedience of Myrdraal, and its not their appearance.

We've speculated, and I think with good reason, that their unique connection with the Dark One is the mark of authority the Chosen have over Shadowspawn. It is impossible for Fain to recreate this mark (since it can only come from the Dark One), and therefore it would be impossible for him to recreate a replica of Sammael convincing enough to send hundreds of thousands of Trollocs and hundreds of Fades (must have been more than 100... some had to have died in the Ways) haring off in contradiction of the orders of the Nae'blis, Moridin (who must want them in the Blight, or he would have countermanded the order telling them to remain there).

Until you can offer some proof that Fain has an alternative way of controlling large numbers of Myrdraal, your theory is going to hold no weight.


1.) The Alpha Myrdraal Theory has been sufficiently debunked; even if your right, and Fain does have a Myrdraal capable of ordering others around, that Fade still won't be able to command other's in contradiction with the orders of a Chosen:

2.) Which leads to the argument that Fain impersonated Sammael, which ALSO isn't possible, because we know he can't recreate the Dark One's mark, which is what allows the Chosen such command among Shadowspawn, so the only possibility is that he takes control of one Myrdraal at a time:

3.) And that's even more unlikely, for a variety of reasons, but for now we'll let it rest on the fact that he simply does not have the requisite time to capture and break 100 Fades 1 by 1.

[Terez]

Bah, no one actually reads my posts. And I really dislike repeating myself. :D

[Yuri33]

Terez, no one is asking you to repeat yourself. I just don't see how you can believe your claims are as strongly supported as the claim that one of the Forsaken did it. The means, the motive, etc. are easier to draw a straight line to with one one of the Forsaken as the culprit. Claiming Fain did it requires extra levels of interpretation, that while not impossible, do seem unlikely (we'll never convince you of that, of course). I suggest that in this instance, you start with a plain text reading, assuming nothing, and then see what the simplest explanation is. A case could be built for Fain, but it requires extra levels of reasoning not needed if a Forsaken did it.

If Fades have no individuality to speak of, and no social interaction whatsoever, then I can't see how it would be in any way necessary for Forsaken to micromanage Fades, and I can't understand why some of you are insisting it is the default position. If obedience to the Chosen is an ingrained part of Fades, then each Fade will of course know that, and have no reason to distrust other Fades. This doesn't mean that they're all buddies. They stay the hell away from one another most of the time, because they don't make friends, but they work together when it's called for. That's what they do.

Your reasoning means that undermining the Shadow would be extremely easy. All it would take would be to break one Fade, and then you can start issuing fake orders from Forsaken throughout the entire Shadowspawn army. That takes a level of trust between Fades that seems unlikely. As evidence against this trust between Fades, I would submit the mark that SH put on Alvairin, specifically so that his "creatures" (the Shadowspawn) would know not to mess with her. It seems to me that if what you say is true, SH (or Moridin) could have simply issued a command to one Fade to leave Alvairin alone, and that would be the end of it.

RJ only revealed one instance of Fade subversion, and it was way back in book 4, so why did you word your statement as if a pattern has been established?
...
Again, Fain has no one-Fade-at-a-time history.

There are two instances of Fain personally subverting (torturing) a singular Fade. The second was in LoC. Two is enough for a pattern, and that's two more than any instance of mass Fade subversion and\or trickery. Claiming that Fain's powers are growing is simply not enough of a counter.

I hate trying to say exactly how it was done when there's so little to work with...but I think the ability of illusion and the ability to subvert Fades is enough evidence that he could have done it.

I have to disagree because both of the abilities (subverting\torturing vs. illusion\tricking) are completely different ways to approach the situation. They don't work together, they oppose one another. So which is it?

I'm also aware that he obviously ordered them to kill Rand. No matter what he says about it after the fact, there is absolutely no evidence that he took any precautions to see that they did not actually kill Rand.

If I send mice to go kill a lion, what precautions do I need to take?

The desperation comes from the urgency of Fain's desire to kill Rand, and the idea that it was a serious attempt comes from the obvious fact that the Whitecloaks tried their best to kill Rand.

It wasn't a serious attempt, by Fain's own words, and to call him desperate based on that evidence is weak. He's been desperate for 11 books now, why suddenly this attack, at this time?

Since we know nothing about how Moridin learned his information, assuming that his specific words carry the meaning you're implying is ridiculous.

There's nothing ridiculous about a plain text reading of the passage. And it's certainly better than constructing an alternative that requires extra levels of interpretation without direct evidence.

It's not direct evidence against it being Fain at all, just because they jumped to the most obvious conclusion. People's assumptions don't count as evidence.

One person thinking a Forsaken did it not evidence. Two people, especially when those two are Moridin and Rand, makes a pattern, and speaks of RJ hitting us over the head with it.

Maybe so, but the illusion that was used was a logical one for him to use, seeing as how Rand came to Far Madding specifically to kill those men.

Talking about the M'Hael? It's not exactly the best illusion to keep Rand acutely distracted, especially in those circumstances.

Again, what's so hard to understand about that? (multiple instances)

Please, refrain from being patronizing. I understand your position, it just doesn't add up.

And I think you and Naz are both still mad about the misogyny thing.

Because there's simply no way anyone in their right mind could disagree with you on purely intellectual grounds, right?

[Sodas]

Yuri, your response was excelent. I commend you on many of the points, and even the presentation.

I however, would never consider anything Moridin says as a fact. Everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Sodas]

To complicate matters slightly (actually, more just to be argumentative), isn't it reasonable to suppose that Dreadlords (that is, Black Ajah/Shadowsworn Asha'man) can compel Shadowspawn to obey simply through spectacular displays of extreme violence? Presumably, they had to resort to this method during the Trolloc Wars, although sending thousands of Trollocs to be slaughtered by Rand and his associates is perhaps indicative of some method of control other than fear. After all, to make the Shadowspawn go to their almost certain deaths, you'd have to make sure they were more afraid of you than of the enemy.
Yes. Although, there could be alterior motive in this case ~ such as honor ~ in bringing down Rand. Afterall, all the clans were prominently represented.

[GonzoTheGreat]

To complicate matters slightly (actually, more just to be argumentative), isn't it reasonable to suppose that Dreadlords (that is, Black Ajah/Shadowsworn Asha'man) can compel Shadowspawn to obey simply through spectacular displays of extreme violence?
If we can take what Moridin said as a fair indication of what happened, then it would seem that no such extreme violence was used. He seemed to believe that it was a matter of "someone orders, and the Myrddraal had to obey". If there had been corpses lying around everywhere, then I think Moridin would have recognised that as the aftermath of extreme violence, and he would have reasoned that a Forsaken didn't need to go to that much trouble, so he would have started looking in a different direction first for culprits.

[Yuri33]

I however, would never consider anything Moridin says as a fact. Everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree that we should be weary of what he says. However, considering the context of the conversation, that it was unlikely Moridin was using the appearance of Sammael as a ruse. He seemed genuinely angry. Additionally, we saw that Rand came to the same conclusion--one of the Forsaken did it. When two separate people, with completely opposing viewpoints, come to the same conclusion, I tend to believe it more strongly.

[Sodas]

Ok, well, let me put it to you this way. Jordan has specifically said that he has made it a theme of his to have character's opinions be wrong. Here is the youtube of the exact quote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfXUgRwR-FU

So I don't believe Moridin. I certainly don't believe he had no reason to lie. I personally think Moridin is responsible, or at least knows way more than he is saying.

[Dragon]

That doesn't mean that the characters are always wrong. It's just a theme that one shouldn't always trust the opinion of a certain character, because they have a limited view.

Otherwise one could also argue that since Rand even suspects Moridin (the man from SL) in KoD, ch.18, as being able to find him and cause great danger, he certainly can't be behind the attack.

It simply doesn't make much sense that Moridin would want Rand harmed at the moment, especially considering the unpredictable implications of the balefire bond between them.

[Sodas]

That doesn't mean that the characters are always wrong. It's just a theme that one shouldn't always trust the opinion of a certain character, because they have a limited view.

Otherwise one could also argue that since Rand even suspects Moridin (the man from SL) in KoD, ch.18, as being able to find him and cause great danger, he certainly can't be behind the attack.

It simply doesn't make much sense that Moridin would want Rand harmed at the moment, especially considering the unpredictable implications of the balefire bond between them.
Please, that is non sequitur. I'm stating that a character's opinion or viewpoint doesn't constitute proof.

Moridin, RJ has said, can't be trusted in particular.
Question: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?
Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!
Dragoncon day 4 http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcjspjqg_52cdtgcjw8

Who has stated that the KOD attack could have only ment to succeed in harming Rand? It failed without Rand having to use a sa'angrael. It could all be a ruse for many reasons ~ even if they don't make sense right now to you or me. Some theories floated include the idea that Moridin is doing it to destabalize his foes with misinformation and false leads; while meanwhile testing Rand's capabilities and weapontry.

[Dragon]

On the other hand, if terez' quote from the other thread is correct, Ishamael was actually quite truthful in this instant.

While you are right that one can't completely rule out the possibility that it was one big ruse from Moridin, it seems to make more sense that again another Forsaken (IMO, this time Graendal) plotted against the Nae'blis and tried to kill/harm Rand.

[Yuri33]

So I don't believe Moridin. I certainly don't believe he had no reason to lie. I personally think Moridin is responsible, or at least knows way more than he is saying.

You raise a reasonable objection. I don't trust a lot of what Moridin\Ishy claims, especially considering RJ's comments. But in this particular case, I'm a little less suspicious. The first reason, as I stated above, is because Rand comes to the same conclusion.

The second, which I haven't mentioned before (it's not a really strong argument, but it's something), is that to bring up the whole thing as a ruse to the other Forsaken costs him something he holds dearly as well: intimidation. He is plainly admitting to the other Forsaken that he doesn't have complete control, that he doesn't know about everything. Yes, it he could gain something by faking it, but he also loses standing by admitting a specific weakness. It doesn't strike me as his style. I believe he only admitted his ignorance of who sent the Trollocs because he genuinely wants to know who done it.

[The Seeker]

I dont think it was Moridin its possible but i doubt it hes Naeblis he has no reason to lie about it. Fain is an option dont forget he has special abilities now and we dont know what all of them are so he might have been able to scare the myrradal into doing what he wanted.

[Sodas]

"Sammael appears to have resurfaced,” Moridin announced, crossing the floor to take a seat.

That is a lie. Moridin and Rand both know Sammael to be toast. So despite some claims that Moridin had no reason to lie, he did lie. So why?

The whole scene in KOD was designed by Moridin for a purpose. Look at the 11 chairs. What purpose did they serve but to underline the idea that there were people missing from meeting. It's as if Moridin placed them there to say, "Sammael, if your out there, here is a seat."

[Terez]

Here we go again. (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/2260) :D And again... (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/2243)

[Sodas]

Those are some catchy threads!

I'm just glad we've moved beyond the belief that every statement must be treated as true unless countered. That lead no where, fast.

[Terez]

I still think that people are largely missing what Callandor was getting at. Yeah, people missed it because Callandor sometimes took it a little too far, but the logic he presented in the premise of that argument is valid. With the RJ quote for the video you posted earlier...here, I'll post the quote for those who bypassed the video:

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910)

(video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfXUgRwR-FU) Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.
Sometimes you just have to go with what you know, because holding back for that small bit of info that you might not know doesn't get you anywhere. :) Just because someone thinks they know something doesn't mean they know it, but at the same time, there has to be a really good reason to distrust what they believe, because if there isn't, then you're just off into the realms of blue sky fantasy...

[Sodas]

Sometimes you just have to go with what you know, because holding back for that small bit of info that you might not know doesn't get you anywhere. Just because someone thinks they know something doesn't mean they know it, but at the same time, there has to be a really good reason to distrust what they believe, because if there isn't, then you're just off into the realms of blue sky fantasy...
Ok, so Jordan had to explain why character's speak out their rear-ends. And now you are basically saying that we should use the same approach to theory making? :confused:

[Terez]

Essentially, yes...but only because going with what you know is more logical than making stuff up. ;)