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FellKnight
02-02-2010, 09:49 PM
After having read tGS 3 times, I'm now starting over and am into book 2, seeing if thereare new things that were previously missed, and I saw one thing that I have never seen discussed previously in the Verin discussions:

TGH Chapter 15, when Ba'alzamon visits Rand in the mirror world, he starts calling Rand "Lews Therin", and he says that he knows that Moiraine told Rand that he is the Dragon Reborn. The only three people in that meeting were Siuan, Moiraine, and Verin. Also, given that Siuan warded the previous discussion with Moiraine, it follows that they would have taken the same precaution here, so eavesdropping is out. Clearly, one of the three must have told Ishy. Verin told Ishy.

Just struck me as an interesting missed hint.

Fell

Tercel
02-03-2010, 05:39 AM
Okay, sure with hindsight that makes sense. Although an equally good explanation is that Ishamael was making an assumption / lying / making stuff up as he went along, like he did in all his conversations with Rand.


Personally I was disappointed by Verin's 'accomplishment' in tGS. Even though Verin had found out so accurately who was Black, it was ultimately the Oath rod that did the finding - Verin's research on that subject counted for little. Egwene already knew of the Black Ajah and knew what the Hunters in the tower were doing with the Oath rod. Verin's revelations catalysed Egwene's action (which was poorly thought out and executed - eg doing it AFTER reuniting the tower would have been smarter and then she'd have got the Black sisters inside the Tower as well as in the Rebel camp instead of giving them an entire day to flee) but didn't contribute a great deal. So overall, I felt Verin's suicide was pointless - the Light gained very little from it, and she would have contributed much much more had she stayed around.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2010, 05:51 AM
Yeah, but blaming that on Verin is not really sensible. It would have made a lot more sense to blame it on Egwene instead. Who, possibly, might perhaps also have paid some attention to potential BA members in Rand's neighbourhood. But then, compared to the magnificence which is Egwene al'Vere, what does the Dragon Reborn really mean to the world?

Tamyrlin
02-03-2010, 01:49 PM
"Perhaps one of us will see something." A sudden wave of suspicion took Egwene by surprise. If she didn't leave something out. The Amyrlin seemed to trust Verin only because she had to. What if Verin was Black Ajah herself? She gave herself a shake. She had traveled all the way from Toman Head to Tar Valon with Verin, and she refused to believe this plump scholar could be a Darkfriend. "I trust you, Verin Sedai." Can I, really?

Considering all of my theories about Verin, I'm still shocked at myself that I wasn't pushing Verin/Black...

Spasmodean
02-03-2010, 01:53 PM
Okay, sure with hindsight that makes sense. Although an equally good explanation is that Ishamael was making an assumption / lying / making stuff up as he went along, like he did in all his conversations with Rand.


Personally I was disappointed by Verin's 'accomplishment' in tGS. Even though Verin had found out so accurately who was Black, it was ultimately the Oath rod that did the finding - Verin's research on that subject counted for little. Egwene already knew of the Black Ajah and knew what the Hunters in the tower were doing with the Oath rod. Verin's revelations catalysed Egwene's action (which was poorly thought out and executed - eg doing it AFTER reuniting the tower would have been smarter and then she'd have got the Black sisters inside the Tower as well as in the Rebel camp instead of giving them an entire day to flee) but didn't contribute a great deal. So overall, I felt Verin's suicide was pointless - the Light gained very little from it, and she would have contributed much much more had she stayed around.

Verin gave Egwene the names. That's her accomplishment, and given how thorough she wa it IS an accomplishment, getting past the secrecy of the heart system. We'll see how much more fruit Verin's info bears in the next few books as she also gave names and info about DF plots.

Egwene formulated the plan. Verin even speculated on how Egwene would do it before she died but stated that the decision was Egwene's alone to make.

Ishara
02-03-2010, 03:08 PM
We should also be keeping in mind that the names of the BA sisters was in the LAST pages of that notebook. There is still the whole notebook to review, and lord knows what else is on there - plots, plans and rituals at least. Not to mention that Verin mentioned she had STACKS of notebooks in her cipher in her rooms. They may not be BA specific, but I think Verin left enough behind to study for a lifetime.

rand
02-03-2010, 07:28 PM
I just noticed this while starting a tPoD reread. It's from Verin's PoV in the prologue:

"One day she would have to write out the cipher she used in her notebooks--a lifetime's worth of them filled cupboards and chests in her rooms above the White Tower library--one day, but she hoped not soon."

It never occured to me why she would need to write out the cipher when she know it quite well herself.

halo6819
02-04-2010, 09:47 PM
I just noticed this while starting a tPoD reread. It's from Verin's PoV in the prologue:



It never occured to me why she would need to write out the cipher when she know it quite well herself.

yea, when the subject of what verin is came up on myspace boards, terez convinced me verin was not BA with that line. the logic being a df wouldnt care if no one ever read her notes...

Davian93
02-05-2010, 07:20 AM
yea, when the subject of what verin is came up on myspace boards, terez convinced me verin was not BA with that line. the logic being a df wouldnt care if no one ever read her notes...

LOL...that's too funny.

Terez
02-05-2010, 07:24 AM
It was a good argument! Turned out to be valid too. :D In a sense, anyway....

GonzoTheGreat
02-05-2010, 07:37 AM
It was a good argument! Turned out to be valid too. :D In a sense, anyway....Just as my somewhat more lengthy proof that Verin couldn't be black.

Ishara
02-05-2010, 09:18 AM
I just noticed this while starting a tPoD reread. It's from Verin's PoV in the prologue:

It never occured to me why she would need to write out the cipher when she know it quite well herself.

Yup - that's what I was referring to - Brown's want to pass on things that last. her legacy may be exposing the BA, but verin certainly noticed and recorded more than the Black.

Let's also not forget that she hid additonal notes from Egwene in tDR (I think). They were either TAR specific or relating to Corianin Nedeal - you could infer either from the scene...

Tree Brother
02-12-2010, 09:24 AM
A couple questions/thoughts. Assuming Verin was speaking the truth, of course.

1) Why didn't Verin release Thomas from the Warder bond? I am assuming she didn't, because she said he was spending his last hour with his family (if she was telling the truth). We know he was a darkfriend, but still.

2) How did she get around the BA Oaths?

You cannot double-cross other Darkfriends... You can never betray the order itself to outsiders... "I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death"

When talking to Mat, she says
I received this paper, Matrim, from a Darkfriend who told me --thinking me a servant of the Shadow -- that one of the Forsaken had commanded that the men in these pictures be killed.

We know that that order had been given. So it is very possible that she either got that command directly, or as she said, another Darkfriend conveyed that message.

Is she going against her BA oaths telling Mat this? It was not the hour of her death at that point.

We know she got around her oaths with the letter, because she "knows" Mat will keep his word, and not open the letter until after she is dead.

Ishara
02-12-2010, 10:09 AM
Hmmm. But we have explicit examples of the BA double-crossing other Darkfriends - just not out right exposig the BA. Maybe that's the distinction - you can't reveal the BA? Talene's experience would certainly hold that up, no?

GonzoTheGreat
02-12-2010, 10:20 AM
You cannot double-cross other Darkfriends... You can never betray the order itself to outsiders... "I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death"The "not" is not in the original, which is a rather important fact, I would say.
So it is possible for her to double cross other DFs, and even the Forsaken.

metaphor
02-16-2010, 07:30 PM
Clearly, one of the three must have told Ishy. Verin told Ishy.

Just struck me as an interesting missed hint.




Or Ishamael learned it himself when he fought Rand at the Eye of the World. But maybe Rand was wearing a mask!

FellKnight
02-17-2010, 06:24 AM
Or Ishamael learned it himself when he fought Rand at the Eye of the World. But maybe Rand was wearing a mask!

He would have known Rand was the DR, but not that the Amyrlin had told him that he was.

Fell

Neilbert
02-17-2010, 06:58 PM
Another possibility is that Ishamael didn't actually know that anyone told Rand he was the DR, he just guessed (cus it's kinda obvious) and then used his supposed knowledge to intimidate Rand.

Ishara
02-17-2010, 08:01 PM
I think Neil's suggestion is the most likely. Ishamael was always known for being an exaggerator.

FellKnight
02-18-2010, 09:15 AM
Just seemed like an awfully big coincidence to me how the first time Rand talks to Ishy after tEotW, and about a week in book time (compared to the months Ishy was hounding him in tEotW), Ishy comes right out and tell Rand that he knows, and in detail, what was told to Rand.

I'm gonna stick with my theory if it's all the same to y'all ;)

Fell

halo6819
02-18-2010, 09:53 PM
im listening to the series and when i got to that point i had the same exact thought fell did. if you go back and read the whole book, not just quotes, you get the idea that ishy is very vague, but after his meeting with the amerlin he gets very specific. he dosnt even call rand lews therin until second book.

GonzoTheGreat
02-19-2010, 03:03 AM
Yeah, but that was also after the Eye of the World business, during which Ishamael learned (the hard way) that the Dragon could still beat him in a fair fight. That's the kind of clue that at least some of the more perceptive people manage to pick up, if they're paying attention.