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Spasmodean
02-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Had this thought this evening. We have previously seen Weiramon arguing with an Ashaman that later turned out to be a Darkfriend.

Yet the LTT voice in TGS seemed....approving?

Up until now the LTT voice had been a hidden judge of character that was generally correct. What gives?

Also - random thought as I typed this; Who did Cyndane behead when she felt the Cleansing at Aridhol? He was supposedly an important person yet we've not heard of any mysterious disappearances of a Lord since the incident.

Stronginthearm
02-03-2010, 09:03 PM
Nah, in no way is he a Darkfriend, he's just an incompetant, he doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to think in curves, he does direct things like charge, and charge and charge and... are you seeing the pattern, even if he had the inclination(and I don't think he does) he doesn't have the mindset to carry of darkfriendiness

Unless of course he is a great actor and in that case you should shoot everybody and have Rand fight the Dark One on his own

Kimon
02-03-2010, 09:42 PM
Nah, in no way is he a Darkfriend, he's just an incompetant, he doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to think in curves, he does direct things like charge, and charge and charge and... are you seeing the pattern, even if he had the inclination(and I don't think he does) he doesn't have the mindset to carry of darkfriendiness

Unless of course he is a great actor and in that case you should shoot everybody and have Rand fight the Dark One on his own

I don't care who you are...I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of-

...and if that isn't obvious enough...

Gedwyn's icily murderous gaze did not change, but Weiramon's face underwent a remarkable transformation. The red faded slowly as he produced a smile in an instant, an oily smile with only a trace of mocking condescension.

There are only two pertinent questions with Weiramon- which Forsaken he was (or is, if it wasn't Sammael at that time) taking orders from, and how much of his stupidity is actual, and how much feigned so as to hide his orders and intentions.

Kimon
02-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Also - random thought as I typed this; Who did Cyndane behead when she felt the Cleansing at Aridhol? He was supposedly an important person yet we've not heard of any mysterious disappearances of a Lord since the incident.

Not much to go on here, the text mentions that the man had a beard, but doesn't offer anything on the styling of this beard to provide more clarity. Beards are common in some nations, less so in others, but we can't really even narrow this down to one nationality. Certainly no named (and bearded) individual is mentioned later as having mysteriously died with his head severed from his body. Though it was apparently a rather long beard, since her weave sliced through it...

So likely just some random schmuck, albeit a marginally important, yet hitherto and henceforth unmentioned DF.

Terez
02-04-2010, 01:38 AM
So is Weiramon a Darkfriend or not?
Yes. Lews Therin was just echoing thoughts that Rand had in earlier books, about how at least Weiramon is honestly stupid, instead of a plotter like the other High Lords. He's wrong, of course, but Rand has no way of knowing that.

'Stronginthearm' doesn't appear to have been paying attention while reading The Path of Daggers. It's okay; most people don't.

Luckers
02-04-2010, 05:37 AM
'Stronginthearm' doesn't appear to have been paying attention while reading The Path of Daggers. It's okay; most people don't.

That made me laugh.

But yes, Weiramon is a darkfriend. Quite an accomplished one--he's managed to openly oppose Rand frequently, and all Rand does in response is smile, pat on the head, and tell the 'silly little man' not to do it again.

Also, look at KoD. Keeping in mind Weiramon's likely allegeinces it puts Anaiyella in something of a suspect position.

Davian93
02-04-2010, 08:38 AM
It could be a big giant red herring.

Yeah, it really really looks like he's a Darkfriend but maybe, just maybe, he's simply a moron. If I had to bet, I'd say he was though.


I always thought Davram Bashere would be a DF...go figure.

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2010, 09:39 AM
I always thought Davram Bashere would be a DF...go figure.Hah! That's just as ridiculous as Verin being one.

FelixPax
02-04-2010, 09:41 AM
Had this thought this evening. We have previously seen Weiramon arguing with an Ashaman that later turned out to be a Darkfriend.

Yet the LTT voice in TGS seemed....approving?

Up until now the LTT voice had been a hidden judge of character that was generally correct. What gives?

Good points here.

Lord Weiramon is the only individual in the whole story who wears a "cape", who I have thought is a darkfriend. Weiramon is the sole exception to cape equal heroes hypothesis in the Wheel of Time series; which has been used in commonly in other literature and stories.

I still wonder if he's truly only fool and/or a darkfriend. Uncertain.

There was no need for the Captain of the Stone to be personally in charge of Rand’s bodyguard, but he frequently was, just as Marcolin often commanded the Companions himself. An often bitter rivalry had grown up between Defenders and Companions, centering on who should guard Rand. The Tairens claimed the right because he had ruled longer in Tear, the Illianers because he was, after all, King of Illian. Perhaps Weiramon had heard some of the mutters among the Defenders that it was time Tear had a king of its own, and who better than the man who had taken the Stone? Weiramon more than agreed with the need, but not with the choice of who should wear the crown. He was not the only one.

The man smoothed his features as soon as he saw Rand looking, and swung down from his gold-tooled saddle to offer a bow that made Tihera’s seem simple. Iron-spined as he was, he could puff up and strut in his sleep. Though he did grimace slightly at putting his polished boot into the mud. He wore a rain cape, to keep the mist off his fine clothes, but even that was encrusted with gold embroidery and had a collar of sapphires. For all of Rand’s coat of deep green silk, with golden bees climbing the sleeves and lapels, anyone might have been forgiven for thinking the Crown of Swords belonged on the other’s head, not his.


Every other individual in the series, who has worn a "cape" can be uniformly tagged as a "hero" character:

1. Tuon/Fortuona
2. Marshall General Davram Bashere
3. High Lady Anaiyella of Tear
4. Valan Luca
5. Lewin (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/lewin.html) (of Rand's Rhuidean ancients memories)


Generally R.J. used cloak (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=cloak), not cape (http://idealseek.no-ip.com /IdealSeek.cgi?q=cape)when writing.

For example, it was hinted early on that Anath was not a hero, while Tuon would be a hero:

Laying a long, gold-embroidered blue cape on Tuon’s shoulders, Selucia stepped back and bowed deeply, the end of her golden braid touching the carpet.

Bowing her head to the Blood, Tuon climbed to the quarterdeck followed by the two Deathwatch Guards. The wind made handling her cape difficult, and pressed her veil against her face one moment, then flailed it over her head the next. It did not matter; that she wore it was sufficient. Her personal banner, two golden lions harnessed to an ancient war-cart, flew at the stern above the six helmsmen struggling to control the long tiller. The Raven-and-Roses would have been packed away as soon as the first crewman to see her veil could pass the word.

Anath was standing by the railing, in unrelieved black silk, outwardly undisturbed by the chill wind in spite of her lack of a cloak or cape.


Tuon and Valan Luca each have the largest number of "cape" references in the series of any character mentioned. Tuon was the only character in tGS with a cape, I've found so far:

Her audience chair was relatively simple. A wooden seat with black velvet on the arms and back. She sat down, wearing a pleated gown of the deepest sea blue, a white cape fluttering behind her. As soon as she did, the people in the room rose from their positions of adulation--all save the da'covale, who remained kneeling. Selucia stood and stepped up beside the chair, her golden hair in a braid down her right side, the left side of her head shaven. She did not wear the ashes, since she was not of the Blood, but the white band on her arm indicated that she--like the entire Empire--mourned the loss of the Empress.


Back to the original topic now, here is the passage where most readers believe Weiramon exposes his darkfriend links:

Forehead still creased, Doressin opened his mouth again, but Bertome said, “I need to talk to the Tairen.” He disliked seeing his childhood friend this way. Al’Thor had unhinged him.
Absorbed in one another, Weiramon and Gedwyn did not hear him riding up on them. Gedwyn was idly playing with his reins, his features cold with contempt. The Tairen was red-faced. “I don’t care who you are,” he was saying to the black-coated man in a low, hard voice, spittle flying, “I won’t take more risk without a command direct from the lips of—”
Abruptly the pair became aware of Bertome, and Weiramon’s mouth snapped shut. He glared as if he wanted to kill Bertome. The Asha’man’s ever-present smile melted away. The wind gusted, cold and sharp as clouds drifted across the sun, but no colder than Gedwyn’s sudden stare. With a small shock Bertome realized the man also wanted to strike him dead on the spot.
Gedwyn’s icily murderous gaze did not change, but Weiramon’s face underwent a remarkable transformation. The red faded slowly as he produced a smile in an instant, an oily smile with only a trace of mocking condescension. “I’ve been thinking about you, Bertome,” he said heartily. “A pity al’Thor strangled your cousin. With his own hands, I hear. Frankly, I was surprised you came when he called. I’ve seen him watching you. I fear he plans something more . . . interesting . . . for you than thrashing your heels on the floor while his fingers tighten on your throat.”
Bertome suppressed a sigh, and not only at the fool’s clumsiness. A good many thought to manipulate him with Colavaere’s death.

A long time ago some thought Weiramon was a pawn of Lanfear's, based on his silver Crescent-and-Stars signal (tFoH book,Chapter 41 (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tfoh/ch41.html)). I have not heard anyone suggest this in a very long time.

And the mystery of Lanfear status should be a theme of the next book, Towers of Midnight.

Terez
02-04-2010, 10:06 AM
That made me laugh.
lol, why?

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2010, 10:07 AM
Weiramon is the sole exception to cape equal heroes hypothesis in the Wheel of Time series; which has been used in commonly in other literature and stories.The most obvious case is of course count Dracula, closely followed by Darth Vader.

Every other individual in the series, who has worn a "cape" can be uniformly tagged as a "hero" character:

1. Tuon/Fortuona
2. Marshall General Davram Bashere
3. High Lady Anaiyella of Tear
4. Valan Luca
5. Lewin (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/lewin.html) (of Rand's Rhuidean ancients memories)6. Lady Ailil

Generally R.J. used cloak (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=cloak), not cape (http://idealseek.no-ip.com /IdealSeek.cgi?q=cape)when writing.Based on another occasion, where I figured out precisely when RJ said what, I suspect that it is just coincidence. Of course, you may be luckier than I was.

Luckers
02-04-2010, 10:19 AM
Every other individual in the series, who has worn a "cape" can be uniformly tagged as a "hero" character:


RJ was secretly hinting through capes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
That made me laugh.

lol, why?

Because of its accuracy in reference to peoples attention to tPoD. Much the same as you find people's knowledge of events in CoT aren't as fine tuned as other books.

Was that not the joke you were making?

Terez
02-04-2010, 10:25 AM
LOL, no. Just commenting on the fact that most people don't catch the evidence on Weiramon in that book. Always seems to be a shocker.

Davian93
02-04-2010, 11:42 AM
Weiramon will be the one that kills Rand on the rocks of Shayol Ghul...Rand thinks he's harmless, he'd probably ignore him coming up beside him with the knife.

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2010, 11:44 AM
A knife which Alivia is going to hand to him?

Davian93
02-04-2010, 11:47 AM
A knife which Alivia is going to hand to him?

Alivia will be distracting him with fascinating conversation about the Seanchan Court.

Ozymandias
02-04-2010, 12:22 PM
Good points here.

Lord Weiramon is the only individual in the whole story who wears a "cape"

So he's Larry David?

Terez
02-04-2010, 12:30 PM
No, he's Luca. And a Hero of the Horn, duh.

FelixPax
02-04-2010, 01:11 PM
Based on another occasion, where I figured out precisely when RJ said what, I suspect that it is just coincidence. Of course, you may be luckier than I was.

Brandon Sanderson once did mention offhand in a podcast, that Robert Jordan used renaissance literature architypes of "capes, breeches" as models in the series. Which is a different method than Brandon's own previously written books, he mentioned.


In Min's case, her clothing marker is "breeches" not a "cape". However, there are so many more references of breeches in the series its a highly troublesome marker as hint for a hero, breeches. Many more non-Heroes (false positives) with breeches are found in the story, compared to capes. Yet how RJ worded in italics Min's breeches and Luca's cape expressed a high degree of similarity in the character's intentions and motivations for wearing "x" piece of clothing. Its a kin to Birgitte's and her clothing, bow as a marker to of a hero's status. Its a required part of each of their own identities, clothing does matters in branding a character type in WoT.


"Livery" is another related topic, for non-heroes which RJ uses to express a group identity. In Cairhien in particular, livery expresses who really rules the Sun Palace.

One Armed Gimp
02-04-2010, 01:36 PM
I'm still going with Weiramon being a moron rather than him being a darkfriend.

FelixPax
02-04-2010, 01:52 PM
Terez didn't get it...laugh.

Larry David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_David) was a co-creator of "Seinfeld"; he played occasionally appeared on the show playing roles such as Frank Costanza's cape-wearing lawyer and providing the voice of George Steinbrenner.

No, he's Luca. And a Hero of the Horn, duh.

Yes, Valan Luca is the source of seven cape references in tFoH book.

His ancient relative Luca, a Jenn Aiel, was introduced in the prior book, "The Shadow Rising". He liked tricks, had big shoulders, and help saved a bunch of kidnapped young women. In doing so, Luca was cast out of the Jenn Aiel.


Valan Luca, a Hero of Horn?
That is iffy considering his own attitude:

“An archer,” he muttered, eyeing the intricate glossy black braid pulled over her left shoulder. “And I suppose you call yourself Birgitte. What are you? One of those idiots hunting the Horn of Valere? Even if the thing exists, what chance any one of you will find it more than another? I was in Illian when the Hunters’ oaths were given, and there were thousands in the Great Square of Tammaz. But for glory that you can attain, nothing can outshine the applause of—”

Valan Luca is more of an entertainer, rather than a seek for the Horn of Valere.

Which is what Mat truly will need when visiting the very friendly Eelfinn people. :D Another entertainer.

Although Valan Luca may or may not have taken the oath of a hunter? Unsure here.


However, Faile might know an answer to this question, if they ever spoke to each other in Illian. So they might already know each other.

“I took the oath and received the blessing in the Great Square of Tammaz, in Illian. Perhaps I was the youngest, but in that crowd, with all the trumpets and drums and cymbals and shouting . . . A six-year-old could have taken the oath, and none would have noticed. There were over a thousand of us, perhaps two, and every one with an idea of where to find the Horn of Valere. I have mine—it still may be the right one—but no Hunter can afford to pass up a strange trail. The Horn will certainly lie at the end of a strange trail, and I have never seen one any stranger than the trail you four make. Where are you bound? Illian? Somewhere else?”

One Armed Gimp
02-04-2010, 02:01 PM
Valan Luca, a Hero of Horn?
That is iffy considering his own attitude:

Wat? Are you disbelieving the very theory you tried propagating?

rand
02-04-2010, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by FelixPax
His ancient relative Luca, a Jenn Aiel, was introduced in the prior book, "The Shadow Rising". He liked tricks, had big shoulders, and help saved a bunch of kidnapped young women. In doing so, Luca was cast out of the Jenn Aiel.
Is there any reason you think they're related besides the fact that they have the same name? (They don't even have the same name, really--the Aiel's name is Luca, but the menagerie owner's name is Valan.

Baravius Hallendren
02-04-2010, 05:24 PM
I didn't think it could get much more obvious. I think at least a little of the stupidity is real though. He probably noticed it working in his favor.

Ishara
02-05-2010, 10:13 AM
His ancient relative Luca, a Jenn Aiel, was introduced in the prior book, "The Shadow Rising". He liked tricks, had big shoulders, and help saved a bunch of kidnapped young women. In doing so, Luca was cast out of the Jenn Aiel.

Is there any reason you think they're related besides the fact that they have the same name? (They don't even have the same name, really--the Aiel's name is Luca, but the menagerie owner's name is Valan.

Ah, Felix logic. It must be true.

Casabamelon
02-05-2010, 11:11 AM
Generally R.J. used cloak (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=cloak), not cape (http://idealseek.no-ip.com /IdealSeek.cgi?q=cape)when writing.


So, you're going to take what you admit is a general trend, and use it as evidence of Hero-ism for a specific person who has no other agreed upon Heroic qualities. A Venn diagram would be helpful here, I think, to most easily illustrate the logical fallacy.

........ It's like a train wreck... I want to put you on "ignore", but I can't help myself in reading your posts...
________
PUBLIC BASEBALL (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/928/baseball/videos/1)

Terez
02-05-2010, 01:11 PM
I want to put you on "ignore", but I can't help myself in reading your posts...
There's usually enough incredulous victims quoting him to keep the entertainment factor.

Davian93
02-05-2010, 01:27 PM
So, you're going to take what you admit is a general trend, and use it as evidence of Hero-ism for a specific person who has no other agreed upon Heroic qualities. A Venn diagram would be helpful here, I think, to most easily illustrate the logical fallacy.

........ It's like a train wreck... I want to put you on "ignore", but I can't help myself in reading your posts...

I like the new guy (or girl...Casabamelon is fairly gender neutral)...seems fairly sharp so far.

Casabamelon
02-05-2010, 02:33 PM
I like the new guy (or girl...Casabamelon is fairly gender neutral)...seems fairly sharp so far.

Thank you. They call me Mister Tibbs.

Wait, that's not what they call me.

I am a guy, though, so someone (somewhere) will call me "Mister", whether I deserve it or not. I can't wait till the first time I (hopefully inadvertently) p!ss off the senior... err... elder... err... older... dang it... more experienced (that's it!) members of TheoryLand and get my head cut.

Should be fun.
________
BLOWJOB REVERSE (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/359/reverse/videos/1)

Ishara
02-05-2010, 06:10 PM
Nah, with belafire you still keep your head. It's just the rest of you that's gone. ;)

FelixPax
02-05-2010, 11:35 PM
Wat? Are you disbelieving the very theory you tried propagating?

As in one of the 100+ Heroes of the Horn of Valere as opposed to a person who took an Oath to find the Horn of Valere in Illian.

Valan Luca was in Illian, but it is highly questionable whether or not, if he took the Oath to find the Horn of Valere as a Hunter.

Whereas, Faile was in Illian and did in fact take an Oath to find the Horn of Valere (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/horn_of_valere.html).

Is that clear enough, now?

FelixPax
02-06-2010, 12:18 AM
Is there any reason you think they're related besides the fact that they have the same name? (They don't even have the same name, really--the Aiel's name is Luca, but the menagerie owner's name is Valan.

The two Luca's have the very same motivations to risk their own lives heroic to try to save females in dangers. That attitude is the very same in both of them.

Mat Cauthon too has the very same selfless heroic motivation to try to save a female in danger too. Even Siuan as Amrylin Seat in Fal Dara, mentioned this very behavioral trait of Mat's, which foreshadow the Tower of Ghenjei and Moiraine's fate:

The Amyrlin gave an exasperated sigh. “You remind me of my uncle Huan. No one could ever pin him down. He liked to gamble, too, and he’d much rather have fun than work. He died pulling children out of a burning house. He wouldn’t stop going back as long as there was one left inside. Are you like him, Mat? Will you be there when the flames are high?”
He could not meet her eyes. He studied his fingers as they plucked irritably at his blanket. “I’m no hero. I do what I have to do, but I am no hero.”
“Most of those we call heroes only did what they had to do. I suppose it will have to be enough. For now. You must not speak to anyone but me of the Horn, my son. Or of your link to it.”



If you had paid attention to the story, you'd already know that Valan is a first name, and Luca is his last name for the circus owner. :rolleyes:


So, you're going to take what you admit is a general trend, and use it as evidence of Hero-ism for a specific person who has no other agreed upon Heroic qualities. A Venn diagram would be helpful here, I think, to most easily illustrate the logical fallacy.

Valan Luca will be in Caemlyn, before Mat Cauthon and Thom leave town for the Tower the Ghenjei. That's a fact.

Valan Luca has already been heroic in the series in his actions and does have heroic qualities. Mat and Nynaeve have both had biased point of views of Valan Luca throughout the series, which is why most readers' have missed these qualities.


----------------------------------------------

Ishara, your a piece of work, attacking the person instead of the idea itself. :rolleyes: Terez is just rude in general with individuals who suggest something different than what she believes, and then she drops cutting comments afterwards. :mad:

At least a few individuals at this forum, have been civil even if they find fault and disagree with a claim. Davian93 has been civil and pleasant even when he disagreed one on point or another, his example has been a good one.

Terez
02-06-2010, 02:45 AM
Hi Felix, I'm Terez.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2010, 04:55 AM
The two Luca's have the very same motivations to risk their own lives heroic to try to save females in dangers. That attitude is the very same in both of them.

Mat Cauthon too has the very same selfless heroic motivation to try to save a female in danger too.Are you now trying to tell us that Valan Luca is Mat Cauthon reborn?
That may be wackier than my Mat is the DR theory, though it has less supporting evidence to it, I think.

Terez
02-06-2010, 05:03 AM
That may be wackier than my Mat is the DR theory, though it has less supporting evidence to it, I think.
Well, that was redundant.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2010, 05:54 AM
Perhaps, but was it unnecessary?

Terez
02-06-2010, 07:10 AM
Perhaps not.

WinespringBrother
02-07-2010, 08:04 AM
The two Luca's have the very same motivations to risk their own lives heroic to try to save females in dangers. That attitude is the very same in both of them.

Mat Cauthon too has the very same selfless heroic motivation to try to save a female in danger too. Even Siuan as Amrylin Seat in Fal Dara, mentioned this very behavioral trait of Mat's, which foreshadow the Tower of Ghenjei and Moiraine's fate:

Valan and Mat had the same motivations? So, when did Mat propose to Nynaeve? I must have skipped that chapter...


Valan Luca has already been heroic in the series in his actions and does have heroic qualities. Mat and Nynaeve have both had biased point of views of Valan Luca throughout the series, which is why most readers' have missed these qualities.

Valan Luca is a coward and nothing like Mat. Plain and simple. He only acts when he will get something in return (money, fame, keeping his own hide intact) and at little risk as possible to himself.

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2010, 09:23 AM
Valan and Mat had the same motivations? So, when did Mat propose to Nynaeve? I must have skipped that chapter...It was quite funny, you know:
"Mat Cauthon," Nynaeve shrieked, "that is the most outrageous thing I ever heard out of your mouth! You're worse than a lecher! You apologize right now!"

Spasmodean
02-07-2010, 02:44 PM
Still waiting on Felix's Luca is the DR theory.

Ishara
02-07-2010, 09:22 PM
Ah, but to attack the idea involves doing all of your work for you Felix. Really, the problem is your leaps of logic, not the idea itself - we've all seen wackier.

Sorry if you think I'm not being civil - it's more tongue-in-cheek than anything else.

Cor Shan
02-07-2010, 11:44 PM
Still waiting on Felix's Luca is the DR theory.

Reminds me of my Luca is a darkfriend prediction, on the basis that more than one man wanting Nynaeve is too improbable to be just chance. It wasn't a very good theory.

nameless
02-08-2010, 01:47 AM
By that logic we could say Galad's a Darkfriend too...

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2010, 04:23 AM
Galad is just an idiot. Besides, he was more enamoured of Egwene, wasn't he?
Which, admittedly, is no less idiotic than falling for Nynaeve, to say the least.

Davian93
02-08-2010, 09:14 AM
Galad is just an idiot. Besides, he was more enamoured of Egwene, wasn't he?
Which, admittedly, is no less idiotic than falling for Nynaeve, to say the least.

I've always liked Galad as a character. I wish we could get some more POVs of him. For example, I think he's far more intelligent than his idiot half-brother Gawyn. Apparently, Egwene like's her men stupid and childish. I wonder if Egwene's "crush" on Gawyn will fade a bit when she realizes just has stupid he really is.

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2010, 10:13 AM
Maybe Gawyn will grow up and become sensible. That'd be funny, if he dumped her and pursued Silviana instead.

nameless
02-08-2010, 04:38 PM
Galad is just an idiot. Besides, he was more enamoured of Egwene, wasn't he?
Which, admittedly, is no less idiotic than falling for Nynaeve, to say the least.

I think he started out with a crush on Egwene but after Nynaeve chased him out of their quarters in the Tower it started to transfer a little if only because Nynaeve is the first woman he's ever met who didn't give him any special treatment because of his looks.

Kimon
02-08-2010, 06:32 PM
I think he started out with a crush on Egwene but after Nynaeve chased him out of their quarters in the Tower it started to transfer a little if only because Nynaeve is the first woman he's ever met who didn't give him any special treatment because of his looks.

He repeatedly mentions Egwene's name during Nynaeve and Elayne's encounter with him in Sienda, and Nynaeve even thinks to herself the following, after Galad "finally" seems to notice that he's not just talking to his sister:

Nynaeve showed her teeth, in what she hoped looked like a smile. It was nice to be included, finally. She could have smacked him. If only he were not so good-looking.

The situation is essentially the same, with Nynaeve clearly flustered by his presence, later at Samara. Though there, he is diplomatic enough to not mention Egwene's name so many times- he almost does once by accident, yet catches himself, but Nynaeve notices:

He clamped his teeth shut, but he might as well have gone ahead and named Egwene.

What attraction there is seems to be almost exclusively one-sided. From Nynaeve. Heck, he flirted more with Min (albeit while she was masquerading as Elmindreda) than with Nynaeve.

His conversations with Nynaeve may well demonstrate that he is getting over Egwene however, but not because of any attraction to Nynaeve. It's probably because of Gawyn, certainly he mentions in Sienda that Gawyn was "nearly unhinged with worry when she disappeared". So it's probably guilt rather than a straying eye. Regardless, it's fairly obvious that he is soon to become Berelain's "man in white".

rand
02-08-2010, 11:06 PM
The two Luca's have the very same motivations to risk their own lives heroic to try to save females in dangers. That attitude is the very same in both of them.
That's not exactly how I would discribe the menagerie Luca... And inheriting the motivations from an ancestor who has been dead for a few thousand years seems a bit far-fetched.

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Mat Cauthon too has the very same selfless heroic motivation to try to save a female in danger too. Even Siuan as Amrylin Seat in Fal Dara, mentioned this very behavioral trait of Mat's, which foreshadow the Tower of Ghenjei and Moiraine's fate:
So Mat's related to Luca too?

Originally Posted by FelixPax
If you had paid attention to the story, you'd already know that Valan is a first name, and Luca is his last name for the circus owner. :rolleyes:
Lol, that's what I just said to show that Valan and Luca are likely not related--they don't have the same first or last names.

Frenzy
02-09-2010, 01:21 AM
Let me see if i have this thread straight. Either Weiramon is a moron of epic proportions because Galad liked Egwene, or he is a darkfriend because Valan Luca wears a cape.

i'd like to propose that there's no real difference between evil and stupidity with some people. Take Careane and Sareitha for example. One was an idiot and the other a darkfriend. They're both dead, so does it really matter who wore the cape?

Daekyras
02-09-2010, 08:23 AM
I've always liked Galad as a character. I wish we could get some more POVs of him. For example, I think he's far more intelligent than his idiot half-brother Gawyn. Apparently, Egwene like's her men stupid and childish. I wonder if Egwene's "crush" on Gawyn will fade a bit when she realizes just has stupid he really is.

I agree with you on this point Dav. I think Galad is a much more interesting character than Gawyn. God he annoys me.

Galads, too few, chapters are some of the best in the entire series. Even the chapters that just include him are interesting and the fight scene with the dragonsworn in samara is a brilliant set piece.

Egwene and Gawyn are stuck togther. Poor eggy.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2010, 12:29 PM
Egwene and Gawyn are stuck togther. Poor eggy.Poor gawwy.
But then, perhaps they are really suited to each other.

nameless
02-13-2010, 02:56 AM
The thing about Weiramon is that RJ was a student of military history and there are numerous real life examples, particularly around the American Civil War and WWI, of stubborn, jingoistic commanders who refused to adapt their tactics to compensate for new weapon technologies like artillery and machine guns. Including a jingoistic idiot like Weiramon who won't accept the fact that the One Power makes his beloved cavalry charges obselete could be simply a nod to verisimilitude.

I'd be interested in seeing a comprehensive list of orders that Weiramon has deliberately ignored or subverted and an analysis of which if any of these help the Shadow. The potentially damning ones I can think of off the top of my head are: abandoned his post during the Illian->Altara campaign and left Rand vulnerable to Seanchan counterattack (weak IMO because the standing order was to keep Rand alive at all costs, but Weiramon might not have been in on that briefing); led sorties against rebels near the Stone and disrupted the ongoing peace negotiations; and weakened Rand's position against Sammael by wasting troops in repeated suicide attacks against Illainers. Of course all of these actions are plausibly explained by Weiramon's towering ambition and tiny brain, so if it is a cover for something more sinister, it's a very, very good one.

IIRC the argument between Weiramon and Gedwyn quoted earlier in this thread was over Weiramon's insistence on bringing his troops blade to blade with the Seanchan when Gedwyn wanted them to stay clear so he could blast away without worrying about friendly fire, which to me suggests that W is not a darkfriend. The unifying factor of agents of the Shadow is their selfishness, and they were almost all recruited into the fold with promises of immortality. Weiramon's eagerness to throw his life away for the glory of Tear doesn't seem to fit the pattern unless he's a darkfriend AND too stupid to know better than to charge into the middle of a saidin strike.

edit: upon further reflection Taim's faction was trying to have Rand assassinated around the time he announced his intention to cleanse the Source so leaving Rand open to the Seanchan is actually a reasonably strong indication after all

Terez
02-13-2010, 01:23 PM
I'd be interested in seeing a comprehensive list of orders that Weiramon has deliberately ignored or subverted and an analysis of which if any of these help the Shadow.
Just re-read all of Rand's chapters in The Path of Daggers with your mind open to the possibility, and you'll see the truth. Weiramon makes some stupid charges, but he always comes back clean.

Powerslave73
02-27-2010, 03:38 PM
I'm really stunned that A) there's any question Weiramon is a DF, and B)anybody believes he's really an idiot.
Weiramon is quite possibly the slickest, most deviously intelligent person in this series. There's ample evidence of this throughout the series. Every time Weiramon's on screen, we are shown a moment of his "mask" slipping. He obviously hates Rand and the necessity of acting the fool for this jumped-up hayseed is chafing him horribly.
RJ has gone out of his way and bent over backward to display this, and even made an exaggeration of Weiramon's acting loyalty- and stupidity-, hoping we'd see.
He's also purely an opportunist, though. He's not going to take any risks. He's going to keep up the act, much as it pains him, until he can strike- and strike hard.

nameless
02-27-2010, 06:59 PM
I just re-read the relevant PoD chapters and I'm convinced... he doesn't let his mask slip in front of Rand very often, but in the section narrated by Lord Bertome, Rand is well out of earshot and Weiramon lets his guard down a lot more.

Terez
02-27-2010, 07:05 PM
Exactly. The scene with Bertome is the one that's supposed to bring it to your attention, but RJ planted a lot of very small clues in Rand's points of view, as well. After seeing Weiramon away from Rand, it all makes sense.

Toss the dice
03-06-2010, 08:09 AM
I think he is a Forsaken, most likely Demandred. I'm basing this off his "too stupid to be real" attitude and even more importantly to me, the way he NEVER gets dirty in battle, while leading crazy charges. Or should I say, never comes BACK dirty. :) If that doesn't scream some sort of OP usage, I don't know what does. These two things in addition to the obvious Demandred-battle connection and also that Forsaken quote (Sammael?) referring to events in the South having Demandred written all over them.

Unsure whether it's been confirmed yes or no whether Weiramon COULD be Demandred, but if it's not confirmed either way, my money is right there. Everything points to it.

Daekyras
03-06-2010, 10:31 AM
I think he is a Forsaken, most likely Demandred. I'm basing this off his "too stupid to be real" attitude and even more importantly to me, the way he NEVER gets dirty in battle, while leading crazy charges. Or should I say, never comes BACK dirty. :) If that doesn't scream some sort of OP usage, I don't know what does. These two things in addition to the obvious Demandred-battle connection and also that Forsaken quote (Sammael?) referring to events in the South having Demandred written all over them.
Unsure whether it's been confirmed yes or no whether Weiramon COULD be Demandred, but if it's not confirmed either way, my money is right there. Everything points to it.

Up to, and probably including,
The Gathering Storm demandred's alter ego has not been seen onscreen. I'm sure terez or someone can point you to the relevant quotes. I suck at that!

Terez
03-06-2010, 01:53 PM
They're in the link in my sig, interview database, Demandred category. I'm too lazy to fetch quotes for noobs today.

Daekyras
03-06-2010, 06:36 PM
They're in the link in my sig, interview database, Demandred category. I'm too lazy to fetch quotes for noobs today.
Yet another reason to love you terez :)

Powerslave73
03-08-2010, 06:10 PM
Yet another reason to love you terez :)

Get a room, you two. This is a family-friendly board.

Terez
03-08-2010, 06:12 PM
I have no idea who told you that, but they lied.

Powerslave73
03-09-2010, 12:17 PM
I have no idea who told you that, but they lied.

In that case, have at it then!

Davian93
03-09-2010, 12:38 PM
Get a room, you two. This is a family-friendly board.

Did we hold a vote or something? I dont recall it ever being a family friendly board.

Terez
03-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Stop being repetitive Dav. People will think you're spamming to catch up.

Davian93
03-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Stop being repetitive Dav. People will think you're spamming to catch up.

As if there's

Davian93
03-09-2010, 01:22 PM
any chance of that happening.

Heinz
04-01-2010, 05:28 PM
I think he is a Forsaken, most likely Demandred.

Unsure whether it's been confirmed yes or no whether Weiramon COULD be Demandred


Not to dig up an older post now, but I was bored and reading through this thread at work and I actually worked up to the same thought before reading TtD's post. From what I've read here, it really does sound like a strong possibility.

Are there direct counter-points that would automatically cancel this from the get-go?

Terez
04-01-2010, 05:53 PM
Like we already said...RJ confirmed that Demandred's alter ego (if he indeed has one) has not been seen on screen as of Crossroads, and Brandon extended that to Knife of Dreams.

Heinz
04-01-2010, 06:12 PM
Right.. got so busy reading and scrolling that I somehow glazed right over Daekyras' post. My bad.

Terez
04-02-2010, 12:32 AM
It's all good.

GonzoTheGreat
04-02-2010, 05:51 AM
Like we already said...RJ confirmed that Demandred's alter ego (if he indeed has one) has not been seen on screen as of Crossroads, and Brandon extended that to Knife of Dreams.Ah, but does that exclude Weiramon?
Perhaps all we've seen so far of him is a stand in, you know. Just as Saddam was supposed to have. Would explain how Weiroman manages to come unscathed through all those mad charges: just replace the dummy with a fresh one whenever necessary.