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Wantanswers
02-06-2010, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by RJ/BS
“This will be a difficult time for the Red Ajah, daughter”, Egwene said. “Their nature has always been to capture man who can channel, but reports claim saidin is cleansed”.
“There will still be rogue channelers, Mother”, Silviana said. “And men are not to be trusted”.
Someday, we will have to move beyond that last sentiment, Egwene thought. But for now; it true enough to let stand. “I didn’t say that your purpose would vanish, only that it would change. I see great things for the Red Ajah in the future---an expanding of vision, a renewal of duty. I am pleased to have you at my side to help guide them”.
This change has already been started when Tsutama gave her approval to bind male channelers, although she didn’t know that saidin was cleansed.

Originally posted by RJ/BS
“Yes, Mother”, Silviana said. Then, in a quieter voice: “I’m going to have get used to a lot of things changing, I suspect”.
‘I’m afraid so”, Egwene said. “Not the least of all will be the need to choose a proper Mistress of Novices, one who can deal with hundreds of new initiates---many of whom are not of the standard age. I’ve already begun the process of accepting for training any woman, no matter how old, who shows some measure of ability with channeling. I suspect that before long, the White Tower will be bursting at the seams with novices”.
“I shall consider suggestions for a replacement quickly then, Mother”, Silviana said.
There is one woman among the rebels, who has shown her capacity, but has one problem: she is a novice herself. Sharina Melloy. And I’m convinced she will be the next Mistress of Novices. To make this possible something has to change and there are 3 possibilities:
1. She stays novice
2. She will become Accepted
3. She will be accepted and raised to the stole shortly after (perhaps the same day)
All three possibilities would be a great change. I, for myself, think the third option is the right one. I also think a lot of novices will find the way to the shawl in a very short time now so few AS are left.
(btw, what happened with Tiana; was she black?)

Egwene mentioned several times that she wanted all channelers to have a bond with the White Tower. Who are those channelers:
Aes Sedai
Kin
Windfinders
Wise Ones
Suldam and Damane
Asha’man
The first 5 groups wouldn’t be a great change because they are all female, so I won’t discuss them now. As far as the Asha’man are concerned, I have reasons to believe they will not only have a bond with the WT but also will be a part of it.

Originally posted by RJ
The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire and sisters will walk its grounds. This I foretell.
I’m not going to discuss how, when or by who this will happen, because there are other places where that can be done. I only want to stipulate that the Asha’man won’t have any housing anymore; no place to gather, no place to train. But aside the WT is the palace that Elaida was building and where they could be housed (a pity Elaida is captured: she could scrub the floors:D).

Furthermore it would be a great advantage to live aside each other. They could learn to trust each other, learn to coop, learn to link and train circles.

Perhaps there will be other changes:
It is said the Dragon Reborn will break all bonds.
Will he also break the bond on the oath rod? And how about the warder bond?

Well, I hope my English is understandable.

Terez
02-06-2010, 04:08 PM
These are old theories, all of which have been discussed recently. Some think Sharina will be raised to the shawl (not stole) by acclimation, like Elayne and Nynaeve were, or something close to it (a big rush, perhaps skipping Accepted like Nynaeve skipped being a novice). Some think the Oaths will be ditched before the Last Battle, some think it won't happen before the end of the series. Some think the Asha'man will live in Elaida's palace; some think Tar Valon will be destroyed when Dragonmount erupts and that they'll all have to go elsewhere, like Rhuidean. Well, I have only managed to sell a few people on that theory, but I still like it. ;)

Wantanswers
02-06-2010, 07:41 PM
These are old theories, all of which have been discussed recently. Some think Sharina will be raised to the shawl (not stole) by acclimation, like Elayne and Nynaeve were, or something close to it (a big rush, perhaps skipping Accepted like Nynaeve skipped being a novice). Some think the Oaths will be ditched before the Last Battle, some think it won't happen before the end of the series. Some think the Asha'man will live in Elaida's palace; some think Tar Valon will be destroyed when Dragonmount erupts and that they'll all have to go elsewhere, like Rhuidean. Well, I have only managed to sell a few people on that theory, but I still like it. ;)

Thank you, Terez.I've been spending a lot of time by reading the theories and posts but I have missed this one completely. I must admit I skipped a lot of posts; some because the discussion turned around in circles, some because they were of topic.
I am convinced the AS will move to Rhuidean, but I'm also convinced they will do it after the Last Battle, for I think Dragonmount and Shayol Ghul will be destroyed at the same time.
The Oaths must have been ditched before Tarmon Gaidon, because of een Aiel foretelling:
If the Aiel should fail the Aes Sedai again, they will die.
There is only one problem; the Aiel would rather die than serve these Aes Sedai.
In CoT Egwene said that those AS who had released from their Oaths, wouldn't be AS any more but were Kin. But there might be exceptions, because there are 2 kinds of Aes Sedai: those who became Aes Sedai by swearing on the Oathrod and those who became it before. Anyway, the way to become an AS will change.
Will the Aiel change too, will they follow the way of the leaf again? And will they form a barricade like Rand saw them doing in Rhuidean? I think they do, because that would explain "the remnant of a remnant".
If all these soughts are right Sharina will become AS by acclamation.

greatwolf
02-10-2010, 06:15 AM
.
This change has already been started when Tsutama gave her approval to bind male channelers, although she didn’t know that saidin was cleansed.

True enough. The pattern has apparently moved faster than our heroes can catch up on. I think it means that the good guys are out of sync with what the pattern's doing. Why is rather a big question. It could be that they (Egwene, Rand, Mat and co) are just not so good at what they're supposed to do, or it might be the pattern engineering them that way or it could be the effect of the DO's influence on things or a combination of faqctors.

Whatever the reason, it can be a dangerous development. If the DO can keep our heroes out of sync with the pattern, he should be able to win. I think.

lurk
02-16-2010, 10:46 AM
an intereseting part of the raising is what will the As do now they are all back in the WT (more or less).

-you have the ter'angreal which any AS to be must enter
-the oath rod discussion, The binding and unbinding Egwene has in mind (retiring into the kin)

- and you have the bonding of ashaman and the reverse bonding of AS how will that become part of "the tower reunited"?

- And there is the matter of amyrlin to AS but what of the ashaman, they now have their M'Hael but actually Logain is their leader. Does he get a special post? do the ashaman become part of the tower under the Amyrlin Seat? What part is there for the dragon in this discussion? None? because he is too busy fighting TG? Who is the leader of the troops at TG? During the Aiel war there was some joint leadership, rulers being in charge for a fixed period of time and then the next one was in charge. But TG? Rand will be off with a small group fighting the DO, there will be trollocs and other shadowspawn that need to be battled, will that be uncoordinated or coordinated? Traveling is a weapon if you can coordinate your troops.

Lots and lots of questions, can't weait for the next books...

lurk
02-16-2010, 10:48 AM
.
(btw, what happened with Tiana; was she black?)



I doubt it, she would have been mentioned in the purge, she IS the mistress of novices, albeit not a very major character...

Enigma
02-16-2010, 03:35 PM
and you have the bonding of ashaman and the reverse bonding of AS how will that become part of "the tower reunited"?

I would guess that the AS attitude will be, at least initially, that the Asha'man are first and foremost Warders. Yes they may be able to channell and are part of the Black Tower but once they are bonded they become Warders and all ties are severed and their one and only duty is to serve and protect their Aes Sedai.

I don't think its ever been said clearly in the series but I guess that when a man is made a Warder unless a special arrangement is made such as if he is a king etc, he does not give up his title but his king/queen no longer has first call on his loyalty. Otherwise you would have Illian calling in all its native warders any time they went to war with Tear, such good warriors would be too good a resourse to turn down from a national prespective.

As far as the AS bonded by AM in the eyes of the AS that is an outrage. They should be released this instant with a full appology given in person by Rand. The AM who dared to carry out such an outrage must of course be handed over to Tower justice. Of course in the spirit of cooperation and justice they may be spared being severed but they should probably submit to being bonded themselves.

And there is the matter of amyrlin to AS but what of the ashaman, they now have their M'Hael but actually Logain is their leader. Does he get a special post? do the ashaman become part of the tower under the Amyrlin Seat? ...

I am sure that the AS would just love the AM to become part of the Tower as warders. That way they are bound to serve and have no real reprsentation in the command structure of the Tower beyond having their AS speak up for them.

While some of the AM who have been bonded seem content that is with AS out in the field where one on one AS and Warders are a lot more equal and there any sensible AS would treat her warder well. Back in the Tower I wonder how many AM would be content to stay in their rooms or practice while the Hall and Amyrlin decide where they will be sent next. The AM would probably demand parity with equal numbers in the Hall, seven leaders given Ajah Head status even if they don't have Ajah's and AM being elligable for election to Amrylin Seat.

Personally I can't see that happening with the current AS though if the world is not destroyed and both groups learn to respect each other and work together after some years have passed and attitudes have changed then the two would probably slowly merge.

Neilbert
02-17-2010, 02:47 AM
-the oath rod discussion, The binding and unbinding Egwene has in mind (retiring into the kin)

I'm still waiting for someone to figure out this trick:

*Grabs Oath Rod, channels spirit into it.*
I swear to speak no word that is not true.
*Drops the stupid thing*
I swear to blah blah blah
(Oh hey sweet, extra binding oaths without the lifespan reduction!)

In short, Aes Sedai are stupid, Egwene especially.

nameless
02-18-2010, 01:01 AM
The 1st Oath enforces honesty but not necessarily obedience... you couldn't make the promises if you didn't believe you meant to follow them, but just because you meant it at the time you said it doesn't mean there's anything stopping you from changing your mind later on.

Neilbert
02-18-2010, 02:19 AM
If you change your mind later then you weren't being honest.

I would imagine that if an Aes Sedai makes an "I will" statement then she at least has to make a good faith attempt to carry it out. Anything else would make that statement a lie.

When Moiraine swore to obey Rand he knew she would because of the first oath. She didn't have the option of changing her mind later. (Or at least she didn't believe she had that option, which worked out to the same thing. Impossible to know either way without more information than we have.)

nameless
02-18-2010, 03:03 AM
The statement itself has to be in good faith. You can't say "I will" if you don't honestly intend to do it. However, the only enforcement mechanism is the one that takes place at the time of the statement. Take the former Aes Sedai damane for example. It's impossible to force them to kill people when their lives aren't in danger because they swore all three Oaths on the binder. If they'd only used the Oath Rod for the first they could have meant every word of the other 2 and still been forced to break them later on. It's the same loophole that allows Aes Sedai to say things that aren't true because they themselves have been misinformed and don't realize they're lying, like when Moiraine told Rand the average man wasn't any stronger in the Power than the average woman.

Neilbert
02-18-2010, 09:56 PM
If they'd only used the Oath Rod for the first they could have meant every word of the other 2 and still been forced to break them later on.

You might be right, like I said it really comes down to lack of evidence either way what the Oath against lying would do if someone were forced to break a promise.

However, it really doesn't matter. Moiraine and every other Aes Sedai sworn to Rand clearly show that a promise made by someone sworn to truthiness must be kept. Nobody doubts that the Aes Sedai sworn to Rand will obey him because of the first Oath.

It might, and I stress might, not work in the instance where someone were forced to kill with the One Power, or forced to make a weapon with it. However, that instance could only arise if they were forced into a link. I think I could find it in me to forgive the captive Aes Sedai in that situation.

lurk
02-19-2010, 09:28 AM
You might be right, like I said it really comes down to lack of evidence either way what the Oath against lying would do if someone were forced to break a promise.

However, it really doesn't matter. Moiraine and every other Aes Sedai sworn to Rand clearly show that a promise made by someone sworn to truthiness must be kept. Nobody doubts that the Aes Sedai sworn to Rand will obey him because of the first Oath.

It might, and I stress might, not work in the instance where someone were forced to kill with the One Power, or forced to make a weapon with it. However, that instance could only arise if they were forced into a link. I think I could find it in me to forgive the captive Aes Sedai in that situation.

The Oath rod effect kicks in as long as you believe what you are doing is against the oath. many ways to circumvent,

make yourself believe that what you do may look like breaking oath but is in fact keeping it in some freaky way.

Elza did the same thing with helping Rand. She made herself believe it was the way to help the DO win.

Talking of oathbreaking.. the chosen are sworn to the great lord but how could Lanfear be plotting against the great lord when she tried to convince Rand to use the CK together? They could overthrow the great lord the creator are her words. That is betrayal, so how did she pull that of?

Wantanswers
02-19-2010, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Nielbert
However, it really doesn't matter. Moiraine and every other Aes Sedai sworn to Rand clearly show that a promise made by someone sworn to truthiness must be kept. Nobody doubts that the Aes Sedai sworn to Rand will obey him because of the first Oath.
Sashalle Anderly isn’t bound to the Oath Rod, but in a letter to Tsutama she writes that her oath will last till Tarmon Gaidon is done(KoD, Prologue)
Originally posted by Nielbert
It might, and I stress might, not work in the instance where someone were forced to kill with the One Power, or forced to make a weapon with it. However, that instance could only arise if they were forced into a link. I think I could find it in me to forgive the captive Aes Sedai in that situation.
Originally posted by RJ/BS(TGS, chapter 41)
Shield after shield came to sever her from the source, but they were like the hands of children trying to stem the roaring flow of a waterfall. With this much power, she could not be stopped save by a full circle, and the Seanchan didn’t use circles; the a’dam prevented it.
Because of the 3 oath’s the captured AS cannot be used as weapons, but because of those same oath’s Suffa has to tell the Seanchan how to travel when they ask. Perhaps she will even tell how it was possible that somebody used as much power as Egwene did; but she cannot show it as long she is leashed and the damane could neither.

Neilbert
02-19-2010, 11:08 AM
Elza did the same thing with helping Rand. She made herself believe it was the way to help the DO win.

Talking of oathbreaking.. the chosen are sworn to the great lord but how could Lanfear be plotting against the great lord when she tried to convince Rand to use the CK together? They could overthrow the great lord the creator are her words. That is betrayal, so how did she pull that of?

Neither of the two you mentioned had sworn an Oath of Truthiness. Lanfear wasn't even bound by any Oaths. I'm not sure why you bring them up as examples.

Because of the 3 oath’s the captured AS cannot be used as weapons, but because of those same oath’s Suffa has to tell the Seanchan how to travel when they ask.

She doesn't have to tell them, she just can't lie. Which means she almost certainly will end up telling them, but an Oath to speak the truth doesn't mean you can't lie by omission.

Eg:

Sul'dam: Do you know Traveling?
Sufa: The Rebel sisters went through great pains to keep that secret to themselves.

Wantanswers
02-19-2010, 11:25 AM
Originally posted byNielbert
Eg:

Sul'dam: Do you know Traveling?
Sufa: The Rebel sisters went through great pains to keep that secret to themselves

Suldam: I want a straight answer! Yes or no!
Suffa: Yes

Neilbert
02-19-2010, 04:14 PM
Can you not read? First of all you spelled my name wrong, and second you clearly did not read the post that you quoted and responded to.

Which means she almost certainly will end up telling them, but an Oath to speak the truth doesn't mean you can't lie by omission.

She could also choose to remain silent, but that would likely only work for a little while.

lurk
02-21-2010, 10:18 AM
Neither of the two you mentioned had sworn an Oath of Truthiness. Lanfear wasn't even bound by any Oaths. I'm not sure why you bring them up as examples.


Elza has sworn an oath not to betray the DO, how is helping the enemy of the DO not betraying? So she needed to convince herself that it was not betraying. It is because of the convincing yourself part I mentioned her, not because of an oath of thruthiness :)

Lanfear is bound to the DO, she has been to SG to pledge herself. We do not know the specifics of these pledges, but I reckon it is something akin to swearing oaths on a oath rod, probably even stronger, commit your soul or something. So how can she then be plotting against the DO? It is like breaking oath. That is why I mentioned her.

Wantanswers
02-21-2010, 11:27 AM
@Neilbert
Sorry that I spelled your name wrong; I will not do it again. With my post before I just wanted to show how easily an omission was broken. Besides, we have already seen how Elaida was used by Alviarin, so I don't think Suffa can resist an interrogation by the Seanchan very long. As a matter of fact I believe that she is going to reveal a lot of AS secrets to the Seanchan and I, for one, think that is a good thing. The more she tells them, the less likely it is the Seanchan will start another offensive. Suppose Suffa tells them that Egwene had foreseen the last attack, but she didn’t believe her. Can they be sure they are not ambushed, when they Travel to Tar Valon. Even if she tells them about linking and about the angreal and the sa’angreal doesn’t matter. As far as I know the Seanchan don’t have angreal and sa’angreal and linking is impossible, unless some of the captured AS are unleashed.
The more Tuon learns about the WT, the more she will realize the WT is not a piece of cake.