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yaje
02-27-2010, 03:41 PM
so why is there a hole in dragon mount??

frenchie
02-27-2010, 03:44 PM
It's a volcano.

Powerslave73
02-27-2010, 03:45 PM
Yeah, not much room for debate on this one.

Terez
02-27-2010, 04:51 PM
Well, it's a legitimate question, I guess... I mean, it hasn't erupted since it formed, and the hole was described by Brandon as if it had, because it was blown out on one side, like Mt. St. Helens.....that happens when the pressure can't vent properly during eruption. Doesn't seem the sort of thing that you'd see on a volcano that has never actually erupted.

Kalli
02-27-2010, 04:59 PM
Until TGS I did not even know it was a volcano... ever. I can see I must of missed something. Probably in the EotW prologue, huh?

Sarevok
02-27-2010, 05:31 PM
Until TGS I did not even know it was a volcano... ever. I can see I must of missed something. Probably in the EotW prologue, huh?

There's also mentions of warm smokey air rolling down in one of the books halfway.

Nazbaque
02-27-2010, 05:37 PM
From TEotW Prologue:
At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters. Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sing remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava still gushing from its broken peak.
Pretty much covers it I think.

Kalli
02-27-2010, 05:37 PM
mmm sometimes I get so wrapped in the plot lines I may read details like this but not retain it... Honestly, when I read TGS and finally knew it was a volcano... I knew I instantly missed something obvious to everyone else... idiot... :o

Edit:


At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters. Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sing remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava still gushing from its broken peak.

Actually I attributed that to the new formation of the mountain and way he formed it. Using earth and fire to the extent that he melted the rock itself... but oh well.

Terez
02-27-2010, 06:00 PM
The smoking peak is mentioned several times, and not just in one book. Off the top of my head...in New Spring, it was pointed out that the broken peak is always smoking. In book 1, 'Watchers', Vandene says that Lan is 'rumbling' like Dragonmount, and that sooner or later he's going to erupt. In the wind bit of Knife of Dreams, in Siuan's point of view, the smell of sulfur coming down from Dragonmount is mentioned several times.

That's why I have a faction that Tar Valon is toast. The Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. When he dies, that's the perfect time for it to blow.

Yellowbeard
03-01-2010, 04:00 PM
I would suspect that Dragonmount has had small eruptions since it's creation. Hence, the smoking top. If it's active, then it occasionally burps up some ash at least. It's just it hasn't been relevant to the story, hence no mention of it.

And I always envisioned the "hole" in dragonmount as a small hole in one side at the peak, not the entire mountain, ala Mt. St. Helens. There's a big difference between it being described as a broken, jagged peak and the conditions at Mt. St. Helens where an entire side of the mountain is now missing.

I've always thought of Dragonmount as having steep sides, with a small volcanic caldera and broken, jagged peak with multiple points. best example i can think of is mt. fuji, only with sides steeper. Dragonmount is RJ's version of Mt. Doom.

Terez
03-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Small eruptions wouldn't cause the hole that Brandon described (which is not how you envisioned it). Only a large, high-pressure eruption would cause that, and it would have to be relevant, with Tar Valon right next door.

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 49 - Just Another Man

He stood on the very point of Dragonmount, the lone peak that had erupted where Lews Therin had killed himself three thousand years before. To one side, he could see down hundreds of feet to where the side of the mountain opened into a blasted-out chasm. The opening was enormous, larger than it looked from profile. A wide oval of red, blazing, churning rock. It was as if a chunk of the mountain were simply missing, torn away, leaving the peak to rise into the air but the entire side of the mountain gone.

Rand stared down into that seething chasm. It was like the maw of a beast. Heat burned from below and flakes of ash twisted into the sky.

I suppose it's possible that there was a high-pressure eruption some time toward the end of the Breaking. A few hundred years is enough geological time for that pressure to build. But if it had happened since, you'd think there would have been some mention of it.

Davian93
03-01-2010, 05:41 PM
Small eruptions wouldn't cause the hole that Brandon described (which is not how you envisioned it). Only a large, high-pressure eruption would cause that, and it would have to be relevant, with Tar Valon right next door.



I suppose it's possible that there was a high-pressure eruption some time toward the end of the Breaking. A few hundred years is enough geological time for that pressure to build. But if it had happened since, you'd think there would have been some mention of it.

Why? It would be just another part of the reshaping of the world during the Breaking...besides it was an isolated area (per LTT's POV) with no nearby settlements until the END of the breaking. There were no witnesses to see it either way.

Nazbaque
03-01-2010, 05:42 PM
Small eruptions wouldn't cause the hole that Brandon described (which is not how you envisioned it). Only a large, high-pressure eruption would cause that, and it would have to be relevant, with Tar Valon right next door.

I suppose it's possible that there was a high-pressure eruption some time toward the end of the Breaking. A few hundred years is enough geological time for that pressure to build. But if it had happened since, you'd think there would have been some mention of it.
1)I'm not an expert on volcanic activity, but I'd like to know why it's impossible that DM was like that from the moment LTT made it. I don't recall any other close range description of it that would indicate otherwise.

2)Very likely there is some mention somewhere in all those books Loial reads(if it has happened that is), but like YB said it just hasn't been relevant to this story.

Ozymandias
03-04-2010, 01:41 AM
Firstly, there would be no description in Loial's books. No one has ever scaled even near the top and thus no one would know of the open crater.

Anyways, my take was thus. Dragonmount was created by a magical, unique effect. We have no evidence of tectonic activity in Randland, which technically isn't impossible as there are tectonically dead worlds. Thus, continental plates don't shift. Normal volcanoes are produced because continental plates shift apart or together, and allow geothermal tension to burst forth (or so I understand it).

LTT basically burned a hole straight through to the planet's core. Because the continental shelf doesn't shift, this hole has always been there and has always had free access to the surface. Thus, geothermal heat is continually rising up, preventing the surface of the crater from crusting over. Because there is no buildup of tension of heat trapped beneath the surface, the crater never "erupts," rather, its always one boiling mass of molten rock seething around down there.

There is an unlimited, absolutely blazing source of heat rising through the tube that compromises the actual crater in Dragonmount. Because of this, the material within is always molten and always replaced by more molten rock rising up. However, it never reaches explosive temperatures because there is no buildup of heat, as it is continually released to the surface.

Does that satisfy everyone? Or is my knowledge of Dragonmount/geology insufficient or just plain wrong?

Nazbaque
03-04-2010, 03:11 AM
Ozy, I fear you have misunderstood me. My fault entirely. I meant the part I marked "2)" to be a response to the second bolded part. I meant that if there has been an eruption there likely is a mention in some books of Randland, but it hasn't been brought up in the story because it isn't relevant.

Kurtz
03-05-2010, 06:04 PM
There's a massive arsehole sat on it if that helps :)

ckparrothead
03-09-2010, 03:08 PM
Would have been cool if there was actually something there, way up at the top of it, since it's mentioned that nobody's been to the top.

Terez
03-09-2010, 03:11 PM
There was something up there. A giant freaking hole. No one has ever seen inside the lava pit before. :D

ckparrothead
03-09-2010, 03:42 PM
If I wanted to see a giant freaking hole I could go to a mexican brothel. I wanted to see some unlikely ruins of Lews Therin's palace, or some crazy stuff.

nameless
03-09-2010, 05:08 PM
I'm kind of afraid to ask, but why Mexican? Wouldn't prostitutes everywhere be on more or less the same footing in that regard?

Also, LTT Traveled away from his house before suiciding, so its ruins are nowhere near Dragonmount.

Terez
03-09-2010, 08:48 PM
Also, RJ told us that the remnants of Lews Therin's palace are completely gone.

Ishara
03-09-2010, 09:37 PM
If I wanted to see a giant freaking hole I could go to a mexican brothel. I wanted to see some unlikely ruins of Lews Therin's palace, or some crazy stuff.

Fuck I love casual racism!

Terez
03-09-2010, 09:41 PM
I'm kind of afraid to ask, but why Mexican?
There is a giant hole off the coast of Mexico.

yaje
05-09-2010, 08:13 PM
Firstly, there would be no description in Loial's books. No one has ever scaled even near the top and thus no one would know of the open crater.

Anyways, my take was thus. Dragonmount was created by a magical, unique effect. We have no evidence of tectonic activity in Randland, which technically isn't impossible as there are tectonically dead worlds. Thus, continental plates don't shift. Normal volcanoes are produced because continental plates shift apart or together, and allow geothermal tension to burst forth (or so I understand it).

LTT basically burned a hole straight through to the planet's core. Because the continental shelf doesn't shift, this hole has always been there and has always had free access to the surface. Thus, geothermal heat is continually rising up, preventing the surface of the crater from crusting over. Because there is no buildup of tension of heat trapped beneath the surface, the crater never "erupts," rather, its always one boiling mass of molten rock seething around down there.

There is an unlimited, absolutely blazing source of heat rising through the tube that compromises the actual crater in Dragonmount. Because of this, the material within is always molten and always replaced by more molten rock rising up. However, it never reaches explosive temperatures because there is no buildup of heat, as it is continually released to the surface.

Does that satisfy everyone? Or is my knowledge of Dragonmount/geology insufficient or just plain wrong?

first of all i would like to mention how pleased i am that my post got so many comments. ive been away for a while but i apparently need to clarify as i am prone to asking questions as they occur in my mind without consideration for others who cant hear/feel what i am thinking.

I knew that DM was a volcano....I just dont see how it's eruption was never mentioned once in the text. A big hole just appeared out of nowhere. I think that something like that would have elicited some comment among tower Sedai or Valon-folk at least. seems like it would be an important event.

to the above poster. there is tectonic activity. there are mountains. if those mountains appearing in randlan were all formed from madmen in the breaking, the formation of those mountains from a whole, spherical crust would be sufficent to create faultlines.

There is only so much surface area in a sphere and creating a big "fold" (envision mountains as a fold) on a sphere from the existing surface area would deform the rest of the sphere and cause its overall volume to decrease. In a sphere subjected to the immense pressures and gravitational forces that, say, a planet is, any presently mountainous state would be tremendously unstable with momentous geographical changes on the order of months and years...unless some of this stress were removed by the creation of fault lines and other rifts in the crust. :)

Planets like to be perfect spheres (as far as their rotational forces allow)but on earth, our tectonic activity allows most of the planet to remain spherical while small sections are raised beyond a certain stable radius (from the center). The weight of these mountains is "stored" in compressional and frictional forces arising from plate techtonics and only from those forces. I.E. High Gravity, no plates, no mountains.

Randland presently has many many mountains that are stable as stable can be. Therefore, it has fault lines. :)

yaje
05-09-2010, 08:44 PM
as for the creation of dragon mount. he balefired a hole to the center right?

I dont know what would happen to the crust if you magically burned a hole in it that stretched backward in time....lets just say DM happened and leave it at that.

I still think that we should be able to find an event in the timeline that we can label as DM erupting.

Marie Curie 7
05-09-2010, 09:42 PM
as for the creation of dragon mount. he balefired a hole to the center right?

I dont know what would happen to the crust if you magically burned a hole in it that stretched backward in time....lets just say DM happened and leave it at that.

It wasn't balefire:

Letter to Tom McCormick from RJ - November/December 1993

Tom McCormick: Please find out if Lews Therin balefired himself in the prologue in The Eye of the World, or if he just drew too much of the One Power. If it isn't critical to the continuing plot, I'm sure he'll say.

RJ: Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.

4Alethinos
06-11-2010, 05:05 PM
If he balefired himself, then he might have wound up before The Strike at Shayol Ghul and that would have been a bad thing for the plot. :)

Weird Harold
06-12-2010, 12:03 PM
...magically burned a hole in it that stretched backward in time...

Even if he had used Balefire to create Dragonmount, rocks (objects) don't have threads for balefire to burn back and create a temporal anomaly.

Neilbert
06-12-2010, 03:30 PM
I'd have to reread the Nynaeve boat balefire scene again, but I'm pretty sure that objects get burnt back in time just like everything else, which is why Nynaeve was suddenly under water, not suddenly on a sinking boat somewhere back upriver.

Terez
06-12-2010, 03:45 PM
Even if he had used Balefire to create Dragonmount, rocks (objects) don't have threads for balefire to burn back and create a temporal anomaly.
They do have threads, apparently.

Weird Harold
06-12-2010, 07:33 PM
I'd have to reread the Nynaeve boat balefire scene again, but I'm pretty sure that objects get burnt back in time just like everything else, which is why Nynaeve was suddenly under water, not suddenly on a sinking boat somewhere back upriver.

Nyneave's boat suffered a temporal anomaly because the boatmen were balefired, not because the boat was balefired. That's one of the straight answers RJ gave about Balefire, IIRC.

Terez
06-12-2010, 07:37 PM
OMFG IT'S THE NYNAEVE'S BOAT AND BALEFIRE ARGUMENT AGAIN

Edit - WH is right, but it's not because inanimate objects don't have threads. They have threads, but being inanimate objects, they inherently lack the ability to take any actions, which means that there is no 'temporal anomaly' as WH likes to put it.

Weird Harold
06-12-2010, 07:41 PM
They do have threads, apparently.
Evenif rocks have threads to be burnt out of thepattern, they don't DO anything to create a temporal anomaly if it is undone.

Boatmen do something like move a boat through the water, so when you BF them their actions are undone.

When you balefire bedrock, you can claim that it's actions are undone, but how could you tell -- bedrock hasn't done anything of its own volition since the creation of the Wheel.

Terez
06-12-2010, 07:57 PM
You still have dial-up, don't you?

Neilbert
06-12-2010, 08:44 PM
Nyneave's boat suffered a temporal anomaly because the boatmen were balefired, not because the boat was balefired. That's one of the straight answers RJ gave about Balefire, IIRC.

I just searched through the entire interview database (One Power section) and found nothing about balefiring objects and temporal effects. That might be the reason the boat moved back up the river, but if you are claiming that's why the boat sank before Nynaeve knew what was going on I'm going to need a citation. I don't see how removing boatmen from time could possibly sink a boat, unless it was already sinking and they were bailing it or something.


Evenif rocks have threads to be burnt out of thepattern, they don't DO anything to create a temporal anomaly if it is undone.

Yes they do. They keep other objects from occupying the same place in space. The side wall of the boat, for example, prevented the water from rushing into the boat and sinking it. They were doing something, passively sure, but still doing something.

When you balefire bedrock, you can claim that it's actions are undone, but how could you tell -- bedrock hasn't done anything of its own volition since the creation of the Wheel.

If you were standing on it when it got balefired you could tell. I'm not sure why you think volition is important, I don't see how that part could be relevant.

Edit - WH is right, but it's not because inanimate objects don't have threads. They have threads, but being inanimate objects, they inherently lack the ability to take any actions, which means that there is no 'temporal anomaly' as WH likes to put it.

If I balefire the wall of a house, there isn't going to be a collapsing house, there is going to be a collapsed house. That's why Moghedien used balefire instead of some other weapon, so Nynaeve would be drowned before she realized what was going on.

OMFG IT'S THE NYNAEVE'S BOAT AND BALEFIRE ARGUMENT AGAIN

Yes, and if you want to continue to be wrong that's your prerogative. If balefire didn't burn back objects then the boat would have been back up the river and sinking, not back up the river and sunk. I really don't see how there is anything to argue about here.

Terez
06-12-2010, 09:06 PM
The boat sank because the balefire damaged it. It wasn't a temporal anomaly; just a physical effect. When balefire hits walls, it burns holes in them, but nothing else happens because walls don't do stuff.

Neilbert
06-12-2010, 09:12 PM
Walls HOLD BUILDINGS UP.

If they didn't do stuff, WE WOULDN'T BUILD THEM.

Weird Harold
06-13-2010, 12:14 AM
...but if you are claiming that's why the boat sank before Nynaeve knew what was going on I'm going to need a citation. I don't see how removing boatmen from time could possibly sink a boat, unless it was already sinking and they were bailing it or something....

aCoS Ch 30
Because she had jerked, the balefire she meant to slice through cabin and passenger instead had sliced diagonally through the middle of the boat, about where the oarsmen had stood, and the bodyguards. Because the rowers had been burned out of the Pattern before the balefire struck, the two halves of the craft were now a good hundred paces back up the river. Then again, perhaps it was not a complete disaster. Because that slice from the boat’s center had gone at the same time the boatmen really died, the river had had minutes to rush in. The two parts of the boat sank out of sight in a great froth of bubbles even as her eyes shifted to them, carrying their passenger to the depths.


tSR Ch 54
Desperately she flung herself to one side, so hard that she slid along the smooth white floorstones until one of the thin columns stopped her with a jar. A leg-thick bar of white shot through where she had been standing, as if the air had turned to molten metal, slicing all the way across the exhibition hall; where it struck, pieces simply vanished out of columns, priceless artifacts ceased to exist. Hurling flows of Fire behind her blindly, hoping to strike something, anything, in the courtyard, Nynaeve scrambled away across the hall on hands and knees. Little more than waist-high, the bar sawed sideways, carving a swathe through both walls; between, cases and cabinets and wired skeletons collapsed and crashed. Severed columns quivered; some fell, but what dropped onto that terrible sword did not survive to smash displays and pedestals to the floor. The glass-walled table fell before the molten shaft vanished, leaving a purplish bar that seemed burned into Nynaeve's vision; the cuendillar figures were all that dropped out of that molten white shaft, bouncing on the floor.

The figurines did not break, of course. It seemed Moghedien was right; not even balefire could destroy cuendillar. That black rod was one of the stolen ter'angreal. Nynaeve could remember the warning appended to their list in a firm hand. Produces balefire. Dangerous and almost impossible to control.


First, it is clearly stated that the boat moved back in time to the point when the boatmen really died. The boat then had however long the boatmen had been burned back to fill with water before Moggy could turn her head and find it again. The boat and the damage to it were caught up in the temporal effect of the boatmen's deaths.

Next -- or more precisely, much earlier -- we have cuendillar objects that a glass case had been acting on for centuries, actively and purposely preventing them from falling to the floor.

Why did the cuendillar "drop out of that molten white shaft" instead of simply appearing on the floor as Nyneave's boat instantly appeared some 200 paces back along it's course?

If inanimate objects have threads that create temporal anomalies when burned away the cuendillar should have been laying on the floor for the several minutes a "leg-thick" bar of balefire would have burned that glass case out of time. but there was no temporal anomaly produced because no living thing's actions were undone.

Neilbert
06-13-2010, 09:39 AM
The boat and the damage to it were caught up in the temporal effect of the boatmen's deaths.

That's your interpretation, one which I am very inclined to disagree with. There is nothing to indicate that the boat damage was "caught up in the temporal effect of the boatmen's deaths" and not burnt back the same distance in time because it was done by the exact same balefire.

In fact, the only way your conclusion makes sense is if you pre-suppose something like:
(objects) don't have threads for balefire to burn back and create a temporal anomaly.

Which as we all know by now is incorrect.

Why did the cuendillar "drop out of that molten white shaft" instead of simply appearing on the floor as Nyneave's boat instantly appeared some 200 paces back along it's course?

This is a really really dumb question because it's essentially asking "Why is something that is immune to the effects of balefire immune to the effects of balefire?!?!" Maybe if you found an example that didn't involve cuellendar I might be inclined to care.

halo6819
06-14-2010, 01:31 AM
There is a giant hole off the coast of Mexico.

this is more then slightly prophetic, as now that hole is gushing oil...

Weird Harold
06-14-2010, 02:21 PM
Maybe if you found an example that didn't involve cuellendar I might be inclined to care.

Same scene, columns cut and some falling, not suddenly fallen. The sections that fell weren't quendillar but the sections burned away "had been acting on them for centuries" by your interpretation so the sections that lost their support would have had more than enough time to become fallen to Nyneave's perceptions.

A counter challenge: find one case of a temporal anomaly caused by balefire that did not involve the destruction of a living being.

Neilbert
06-15-2010, 10:54 AM
so the sections that lost their support would have had more than enough time to become fallen to Nyneave's perceptions.

Rand still remembers Asmodean Mat and Aviendha being killed by Rhavin. Part of balefire fights is that they get real confusing real fast. I wouldn't be so keen to rely on a character's perceptions of what happened.

In fact, the only thing I would be willing to accept here is an answer from BS/Maria.

Weird Harold
06-15-2010, 12:24 PM
Rand still remembers Asmodean Mat and Aviendha being killed by Rhavin. Part of balefire fights is that they get real confusing real fast. I wouldn't be so keen to rely on a character's perceptions of what happened.

In fact, the only thing I would be willing to accept here is an answer from BS/Maria.
You have as much right to be obstinately wrong as anyone else. :p

4Alethinos
06-18-2010, 12:57 PM
Yes, WH, I too see a lot of people who still get balefire wrong. When a person is balefired, it is only their actions back as far as the balefire took them that are erased. Memories of others are not affected by the occurence. That is so obvious by a casual reading of the series.

Mat remembered being bitten by that hellhound, but he sees that the wounds are gone as if he had only been grazed. His memories were not erased. quod erat demonstratum.

I have stated that it is this that caused the eventual stopping of the use of balefire. Too many causal links were being destroyed. The fabric of the Pattern was being damaged because activities were being eliminated and the effects that led to other subsequent actions were being eliminated. This is called "a bad thing."

Casabamelon
06-21-2010, 01:00 PM
I have stated that it is this that caused the eventual stopping of the use of balefire. Too many causal links were being destroyed. The fabric of the Pattern was being damaged because activities were being eliminated and the effects that led to other subsequent actions were being eliminated. This is called "a bad thing."

Was there ever an argument that the wanton use of balefire wasn't a "bad thing"?
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