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Kurtz
03-05-2010, 07:37 PM
We've given our few months adoration, time for some serious nitpicking.

Besides Mat being slightly more palatable than usual there was a few other anomalies in the book that need highlighting. What irritated you good Theorylanders?

For me

- Saerin telling Chubain to use bows instead of swords. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/giggsy2/iconuhohc9gk.gif

I realise Master Chub isn't A Great Captain but for fuck sake any idiot (Great War aside) would figure that running at a long stick with a short stick isn't going to work out handsomely

- Nynaeve giving out to Tam at the end http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/giggsy2/iconuhohc9gk.gif

It seemed Nynaeve had spent the book vaguely but steadfastly figuring things out and she got reduced to being one of the clueless pack in a paragraph. Very frustrating and a pointless diminishment of her character.

- Same with Perrin. Regressed needlessly into a fretful moan. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/giggsy2/iconuhohc9gk.gif

- *Traditional 'no Moiraine' Complaint* http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/giggsy2/iconuhohc9gk.gif

Spasmodean
03-05-2010, 08:41 PM
The 3 must be as one seeming to mean Rand + 2 nameless womenz.

When theres blatantly 2 other ta'veren running about doing the business thats he's linked to by the swirly colors.

Kurtz
03-05-2010, 08:51 PM
The 3 must be as one seeming to mean Rand + 2 nameless womenz.

When theres blatantly 2 other ta'veren running about doing the business thats he's linked to by the swirly colors.

If you are saying Rand is going to go gay for the two other ta'veren then I disagree. Not that he isn't a deviant.

reTaardad
03-05-2010, 09:27 PM
LOLZ at gay ta'veren threesome.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Kurtz
03-05-2010, 09:34 PM
LOLZ at gay ta'veren threesome.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

All jokes aside; it's been heavily foreshadowed and would explain why they're all so tremedously rough with women.

Nazbaque
03-05-2010, 09:43 PM
"bloody ashes" instead of "blood and ashes"

I don't know why, but it annoys the hell out of me.

Terez
03-05-2010, 09:52 PM
If you are saying Rand is going to go gay for the two other ta'veren then I disagree. Not that he isn't a deviant.
Yes, he's much more likely to go for Moridin. Not that the ta'veren threesome wouldn't be hot. Actually, for some reason it gets less hot with Perrin in the mix. Let's just stick with Rand and Mat. And Moridin.

nameless
03-06-2010, 12:06 AM
That gives a whole new meaning to the Mat/Ishamael dream scene in tEotW where Mat "grips himself" in his hand...

Frenzy
03-06-2010, 01:44 AM
The scene with the farmer & the blacksmith in the prologue was annoying. It dragged on without much point to it. At least it felt like that to me when i first read it, but at that point i was impatient and wanting the plot to dive right in.

Oh, and "elaborate backstories" annoyed me. Hilarious, but out of character.

Powerslave73
03-06-2010, 02:35 AM
What annoyed me most about TGS is that we had to wait until TGS for Rand to give Cadsuane the smackdown, and when he finally did, the bitch survived it! God, I wish somebody would just do that Asha'Man head-explodey thing on her!

Terez
03-06-2010, 02:37 AM
Cadsuane is awesome, if for no other reason than the effect she has on men.

Powerslave73
03-06-2010, 02:39 AM
Her head needs serious exploding.

Terez
03-06-2010, 03:01 AM
See?

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2010, 04:39 AM
Nah, she just needs to meet a man who hits back after she slaps him in the face.

Alternatively, and even better: Rand could now name himself Aes Sedai, claim to be Egwene's equal as head of the male AS, resume his (LTT's) position as head of all AS, and then demand that Cadsuane defer to him. That'd probably make her head explode without anyone having to embrace the OP.

Naturally, when cleaning up the resulting mess using the OP would be very useful. I'm still trying to work out a way of avoiding that little problem.

Daekyras
03-06-2010, 05:47 AM
i enjoyed this but i agree with frenzy about the "elaborate backstories".

Another thing that annoyed me was that there was no Galad chapter. I really enjoy his character as those chapters are almost always well written.

And gawyn, too much of him. There's all this build of him getting to egwene and then...nothing. It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't insufferable!

Oh, and there were way too many chapters involving sea folk and/or Elayne...no, actually there was just the right amount of both of those!

Neilbert
03-06-2010, 06:07 AM
New Mat sucks.

Rand's angst got tiresome.

Cadsuane's manipulation got old. The revelation that Rand was out of her control was needed.

Egwene getting pissy over being rescued from the Tower.

Gawayn.

"Egwene the woman."

Semirhage was a letdown.

No Moiraine.

New Mat sucks.

Toss the dice
03-06-2010, 07:12 AM
-New Mat sucks

-Mandewvin out of character

-Talmanes out of character

-Cadsuane out of character

-Basically most everyone out of character. Badly and often.

-Zero Forsaken interaction with Mat or Perrin. Even though we just had a big and important Forsaken meeting in KoD where Moridin is essentially screaming for them to be found and killed.

-Every chapter containing multiple stupid and sentimental flashes to the past.

-Every single chapter containing multiple unneeded and tactless reminders from Brandon about obvious things no one could forget. (similar to a movie adaptation of a book) Except this is book 12, not a movie.

-Crappy dialogue and interaction between Mat and his followers. Nonexistent for most of them.

-Egwene annoys the hell out of me, but that isn't necessarily Brandon's fault.

-Every single page in TGS has at least one blatant out of character phrase uttered by a character. Some of them HAVE to be a joke.

-Hinderstap. Pointless, even considering the Pattern unraveling.

-The "wind introduction" going on for god knows how long at the beginning.


I realize a lot of the above are broad points and some of you probably assume I am a troll, bitter that TGS isn't really a Jordan book, or some other reason for my blunt complaints. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

I am a huge fan of WoT, like most people here. I was very much eagerly anticipating TGS, counting down the months, weeks, and days until it finally arrived. I would have been happier obviously had TGS been a RJ-written book, but for the most part I was esctatic that another author was going to do it himself, from the notes that RJ left. I expected TGS would be written differently since it was a different author, but that wasn't a worrisome issue to me since I knew the story plot would overall be RJs due to his notes and leavings.

When I finally had TGS in my hands, I was pumped, couldn't wait to read it. In the back of my mind I knew to expect a different writing style. I read it. Several things jumped out at me, like Mat's entire book appearance being weird, and the diff writing style of course. I liked the book and it was entertaining to read, but I ranked it one of the lower books in the series, if not the lowest due to Mat's parts and the writing style alone. Can't top RJ right?

Then I read it again a couple months later. While the story itself is entertaining for a book and it is WoT, nearly every single page made me groan. It was NOT the core writing style difference that was unbearable. It was the fact that nearly all characters in the book said things badly out of character (and said odd words and phrases) and acted out of character as well. Also, every couple minutes I was "treated" to another lame sentimental flashback or reminder of something blatantly obvious. Unbelievable.

On top of all this, Mat's sections became even more glaringly stupid and pointless, along with the overall theme of the book. Sanderson also has a talent for going too fast and skipping over lots of stuff (let alone great potential for actually good content), while at the same time accomplishing very little, at least on a page-by page and chapter-by-chapter basis. The WT uniting is a big accomplishment and so is Rand's newfound revelations, but the majority of the books is simply pointless.

I would like nothing more than to honestly be able to claim that I loved TGS and it was truly a good thing, but I can't. I realize a lot of you may love it simply because it is WoT or maybe you are in denial that it sucks due to your love of WoT that we all share. I was in denial a little bit during my 1st read and desperatly tried to find any reasons I could to think better of the book. But the simple matter is this: TGS sucks and it is annoying and PAINFUL to read for a WoT fanboy like myself...at least the 2nd time around.

Toss the dice
03-06-2010, 07:19 AM
-New Mat sucks

-Mandewvin out of character

-Talmanes out of character

-Cadsuane out of character

-Basically most everyone out of character. Badly and often.

-Every chapter containing multiple stupid and sentimental flashes to the past.

-Every single chapter containing multiple unneeded and tactless reminders from Brandon about obvious things no one could forget. (similar to a movie adaptation of a book) Except this is book 12, not a movie.

-Crappy dialogue and interaction between Mat and his followers. Nonexistent for most of them.

-Egwene annoys the hell out of me, but that isn't necessarily Brandon's fault.

-Every single page in TGS has at least one blatant out of character phrase uttered by a character. Some of them HAVE to be a joke.

-Hinderstap. Pointless, even considering the Pattern unraveling.

-The "wind introduction" going on for god knows how long at the beginning.


I realize a lot of the above are broad points and some of you probably assume I am a troll, bitter that TGS isn't really a Jordan book, or some other reason for my blunt complaints. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

I am a huge fan of WoT, like most people here. I was very much eagerly anticipating TGS, counting down the months, weeks, and days until it finally arrived. I would have been happier obviously had TGS been a RJ-written book, but for the most part I was esctatic that another author was going to do it himself, from the notes that RJ left. I expected TGS would be written differently since it was a different author, but that wasn't a worrisome issue to me since I knew the story plot would overall be RJs due to his notes and leavings.

When I finally had TGS in my hands, I was pumped, couldn't wait to read it. In the back of my mind I knew to expect a different writing style. I read it. Several things jumped out at me, like Mat's entire book appearance being weird, and the diff writing style of course. I liked the book and it was entertaining to read, but I ranked it one of the lower books in the series, if not the lowest due to Mat's parts and the writing style alone. Can't top RJ right?

Then I read it again a couple months later. While the story itself is entertaining for a book and it is WoT, nearly every single page made me groan. It was NOT the core writing style difference that was unbearable. It was the fact that nearly all characters in the book said things badly out of character (and said odd words and phrases) and acted out of character as well. Also, every couple minutes I was "treated" to another lame sentimental flashback or reminder of something blatantly obvious. Unbelievable.

On top of all this, Mat's sections became even more glaringly stupid and pointless, along with the overall theme of the book. Sanderson also has a talent for going too fast and skipping over lots of stuff (let alone great potential for actually good content), while at the same time accomplishing very little, at least on a page-by page and chapter-by-chapter basis. The WT uniting is a big accomplishment and so is Rand's newfound revelations, but the majority of the books is simply pointless.

I would like nothing more than to honestly be able to claim that I loved TGS and it was truly a good thing, but I can't. I realize a lot of you may love it simply because it is WoT or maybe you are in denial that it sucks due to your love of WoT that we all share. I was in denial a little bit during my 1st read and desperatly tried to find any reasons I could to think better of the book. But the simple matter is this: TGS sucks and it is annoying and PAINFUL to read for a WoT fanboy like myself...at least the 2nd time around.

Edit: Another thing. One of Brandon's specialties seems to be inventing and making up unneeded character depth that makes the book worse not only because that extra inventive crap is unneeded, but that it makes the characters WORSE and UNDESIRABLE. It's like he revels in wasting space to make us not like the characters as much. Meanwhile, the rest of the book gets shafted even more because of this unneeded and unwanted attention.

Toss the dice
03-06-2010, 07:33 AM
-New Mat sucks

-Mandewvin out of character

-Talmanes out of character

-Cadsuane out of character

-Basically most everyone out of character. Badly and often.

-Every chapter containing multiple stupid and sentimental flashes to the past.

-Every single chapter containing multiple unneeded and tactless reminders from Brandon about obvious things no one could forget. (similar to a movie adaptation of a book) Except this is book 12, not a movie.

-Crappy dialogue and interaction between Mat and his followers. Nonexistent for most of them.

-Egwene annoys the hell out of me, but that isn't necessarily Brandon's fault.

-Every single page in TGS has at least one blatant out of character phrase uttered by a character. Some of them HAVE to be a joke.

-Hinderstap. Pointless, even considering the Pattern unraveling.

-The "wind introduction" going on for god knows how long at the beginning.


I realize a lot of the above are broad points and some of you probably assume I am a troll, bitter that TGS isn't really a Jordan book, or some other reason for my blunt complaints. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

I am a huge fan of WoT, like most people here. I was very much eagerly anticipating TGS, counting down the months, weeks, and days until it finally arrived. I would have been happier obviously had TGS been a RJ-written book, but for the most part I was esctatic that another author was going to do it himself, from the notes that RJ left. I expected TGS would be written differently since it was a different author, but that wasn't a worrisome issue to me since I knew the story plot would overall be RJs due to his notes and leavings.

When I finally had TGS in my hands, I was pumped, couldn't wait to read it. In the back of my mind I knew to expect a different writing style. I read it. Several things jumped out at me, like Mat's entire book appearance being weird, and the diff writing style of course. I liked the book and it was entertaining to read, but I ranked it one of the lower books in the series, if not the lowest due to Mat's parts and the writing style alone. Can't top RJ right?

Then I read it again a couple months later. While the story itself is entertaining for a book and it is WoT, nearly every single page made me groan. It was NOT the core writing style difference that was unbearable. It was the fact that nearly all characters in the book said things badly out of character (and said odd words and phrases) and acted out of character as well. Also, every couple minutes I was "treated" to another lame sentimental flashback or reminder of something blatantly obvious. Unbelievable.

On top of all this, Mat's sections became even more glaringly stupid and pointless, along with the overall theme of the book. Sanderson also has a talent for going too fast and skipping over lots of stuff (let alone great potential for actually good content), while at the same time accomplishing very little, at least on a page-by page and chapter-by-chapter basis. The WT uniting is a big accomplishment and so is Rand's newfound revelations, but the majority of the books is simply pointless.

I would like nothing more than to honestly be able to claim that I loved TGS and it was truly a good thing, but I can't. I realize a lot of you may love it simply because it is WoT or maybe you are in denial that it sucks due to your love of WoT that we all share. I was in denial a little bit during my 1st read and desperatly tried to find any reasons I could to think better of the book. But the simple matter is this: TGS sucks and it is annoying and PAINFUL to read for a WoT fanboy like myself...at least the 2nd time around.

Ishara
03-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Nice triple post. :p

Look, I'll be honest and say that I loved it. I've just finished a huge re-read, and finished tGS yesterday, and I will honestly say that while I could note a subtle change in writing style, it wasn't jarring for me, at all.

I felt it was very fast paced (barring the opening scene Frenzy mentioned, and even that wasn't too bad imo), action packed, and everything it needed to be after the drop in plot from CoT onwards.

I loved "new" Mat, and have argued in the past that I felt "new" Mat was a natural character, and that I didn't find it jarring. In fact, I found the levity of his scenes almost required, given the other happenings.

What annoyed me?

I found Min to be whiny, too introspective and ineffective. But that was her character arc this time around. I can accept that it was required.

Rand irritates the ever living crap out of me, but he's been doing that since...CoS. He's a whiny guy right now, and again, I suppose he needs to be.

Terez
03-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Aside from Mat and those with him, the most OOC characters to me were Siuan and Bryne, particularly Bryne. I have done essentially one full re-read of the book, and I find that they bother me even more than Mat. Gawyn wasn't so much OOC as he was just...lame. Can't say that's all that different than usual.

Kurtz
03-06-2010, 07:07 PM
Toss the Dice is clearly an arse. It's purely an impossibilty that anyone can write so much shit thrice.

Terez is wrong again since Siuan and Gareth are awesome and she's just trying to be cool (sigh) by hating on them.

*spanks Terez*

Shalukwa
03-06-2010, 07:32 PM
Word to pretty much everything Toss the Dice says.
I think that so much had to happen in this book that no matter how it was written, it was going to be engaging. But the writing style re-hee-eally annoyed me...

The Siuan/Bryne/poison dart thing - that scene was clumsy and only fit Mins viewing in a horribly literal way.

Elaidas freak-out also seemed overdone to me. She was a formidable character all through the books and wouldn't/shouldn't have been reduced to tantrums like that. Although the Fain link could excuse some of that...

Anyway - I like the sweeties but not the packaging :)

Terez
03-06-2010, 08:14 PM
The Siuan/Bryne/poison dart thing - that scene was clumsy and only fit Mins viewing in a horribly literal way.
I was hoping as I read it that Siuan merely misinterpreted it, but the poisoned pin makes it unlikely.

Ishara
03-06-2010, 09:22 PM
Why you hoping for the misinterpretation? I mean really, it's as likely as anything else we've seen...

I just didn't get the sense that anyone was OOC really. Bryne we haven't a POV from in almost what, 4 books? It jived with what I recall from that one, so I'm happy. The lameness of certain characters can't be blamed on them being OOC, as much as it can be with the fact that they are actually LAME (e.g. Min and Gawyn).

Whatever, I purposely didn't read any of BS's stuff prior to tGS so that I wouldbe able to easily discern the difference in writing style. I'm happy with that decision. :)

Terez
03-06-2010, 09:35 PM
Why you hoping for the misinterpretation?
Because the scene is less ridiculous that way.

Toss the dice
03-07-2010, 01:59 AM
Toss the Dice is clearly an arse. It's purely an impossibilty that anyone can write so much shit thrice.

Terez is wrong again since Siuan and Gareth are awesome and she's just trying to be cool (sigh) by hating on them.

*spanks Terez*

While I probably am an arse, I am sorry for the triple post. Apparently on Theoryland, if you hit the back button now (don't remember this happening before) and then hit retry, it posts again. Maybe I have diff browser settings too, dunno.

Terez
03-07-2010, 03:46 AM
I should probably add that, overall, I agree with Ishara. The book was awesome. I think it would have been a lot better if RJ had written it, but that's because I like RJ's style, and of course the story would have been told better by the person that came up with it. Some people like Brandon's style better. His tone is a lot lighter than RJ's.

halo6819
03-07-2010, 07:58 AM
one of the things that bothered me were some of the power "tricks" that were used in this book. those felt a lot like Brandon's style. ie when nyneave wove a ward and then kicked in a door or rand double traveled. If it were that easy to do, then asmodean would have done it to get from alcair dal to ruhedian, and had the CH in his hands hours before rand. (first example that came to mind as i just finished listening to SR).
these felt a lot like Vin grabbing a bunch of random crap before she went to go fight the lord ruler in the first mistborn book.
also i was bugged by mat, i love the guy to death, and his tirade on women was spot on but it just didn't feel like mat.

but like most others, overall i thought the book was the best it could be under the circumstances. and i honestly dont think anyone could have done as good of a job both with the book and the community then brandon. Also, must give props over the speed with which it came out. It took RJ over 2 years for the last half dozen books, and it was his story, so two years to absorb the universe and characters and get the book out is truly amazing IMHO...

Terez
03-07-2010, 08:48 AM
one of the things that bothered me were some of the power "tricks" that were used in this book. those felt a lot like Brandon's style. ie when nyneave wove a ward and then kicked in a door or rand double traveled. If it were that easy to do, then asmodean would have done it to get from alcair dal to ruhedian, and had the CH in his hands hours before rand.
Wat? Who says he left hours before Rand? I rather got the impression that he had just left, not long before Rand did. Also, RJ introduced the 'double' Traveling in book 8; it was a large part of the strategy Rand and the Asha'man used to fight the Seanchan in Altara.

halo6819
03-07-2010, 09:16 AM
i was exaggerating the amount of time skimming took. i know the skim was only 5 min or so, gut be it 5 min or 5 hours the result would have been the same, Asmo should have gotten to ruhudian way before rand and grabbed the CK statue and wrecked a bitch.

from what i remember (which i know for a fact isnt as good as your memory terez) the altara campaign was mostly small hops and the ashaman were opening gateways right on top of where the last one was due to the irregularities of sadin.

also, rand dosnt create his second gateway ontop of the first, or at least not explicitly...
Rand waved a curt hand, cutting off Hurin. A gateway opened immediately. It didn't appear to lead to Far Madding, however; it just led back a short distance, to the road where Rand and the others had been riding a short time before.

Rand released Hurin, gesturing for the Aiel to let the man mount, then moved Tai'daishar through the gateway. What was going on? Everyone else followed. Once through, Rand created another gateway, this one opening into a small wooded hollow. Nynaeve thought she recognized it; this was where they had camped following their visit to Far Madding with Cadsuane.

Why the first gateway? Nynaeve thought, confused. And then it occurred to her. One didn't need to learn an area to Travel a short distance from it—and Traveling to a place taught someone that location well enough to create gateways from it.

to me it seems like
|Gate A| |bunch of people| |Gate B|

again, its just something that bugged me, maybe it had more to do with the presentation then the substance (as you pointed out another time i mentioned these two things, there has been plenty of presidence on using wards as a silencing mechanism.)

Terez
03-07-2010, 09:38 AM
from what i remember (which i know for a fact isnt as good as your memory terez) the altara campaign was mostly small hops and the ashaman were opening gateways right on top of where the last one was due to the irregularities of sadin.
It didn't have anything to do with the irregularities. It was simply a more effective way of using Traveling, that didn't require 'learning the ground'. In that case, it wasn't required mostly because of the short hops, but not completely. This is part of why 'Traveling grounds' were set up, also with Perrin's men, and in Caemlyn, so that they didn't have to learn the ground to Travel (the other part was so that they didn't accidentally dismember someone with a gateway).

Daekyras
03-07-2010, 11:39 AM
Because the scene is less ridiculous that way.

Agreed. It reads a little...heavy handed...as it is. If anything it reminds me of the passage in dragonlance where Tasslehoff is opening the lock and gets pricked with a concealed poison needle. Always hated that scene!

RJ was rarely that lacking in subtlety.

Having said that, the book is not as bad as Toss implies. It is certainly better than CoT. *shudders at memories*

reTaardad
03-07-2010, 02:06 PM
Asmodean probably couldn't have used the Double Gateway trick to get to Rhuidean since there was nowhere close by that he could use as a jump point. As we learned from Verin, it would take an entire night while holding the Power to learn a place well enough to Travel. Since they were traveling with Aiel, they hadn't stayed in the same place for more than a few hours at a time. In order to use the Double Gateways, he'd have needed a place he'd Traveled to or from within a mile or two (or however far) of Alcair Dal.

Spasmodean
03-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Asmodean probably couldn't have used the Double Gateway trick to get to Rhuidean since there was nowhere close by that he could use as a jump point. As we learned from Verin, it would take an entire night while holding the Power to learn a place well enough to Travel. Since they were traveling with Aiel, they hadn't stayed in the same place for more than a few hours at a time. In order to use the Double Gateways, he'd have needed a place he'd Traveled to or from within a mile or two (or however far) of Alcair Dal.

Also remember that he may not have been strong enough to Travel either, and may have needed to Skim instead.

kcc87
03-07-2010, 03:20 PM
Also remember that he may not have been strong enough to Travel either, and may have needed to Skim instead.

I don't think there's much chance of that. He was as strong as Rand was at the time, and on The Thirteenth Depository's saidar strength ranking, it has level 8 necessary to travel and level 12 required to use the Choedan Kal, which we know Asmodean was able to use. Saidar is not saidin of course, but I'd say there's zero chance he was unable to travel before Lanfear's shield.

Ishara
03-07-2010, 04:24 PM
I should probably add that, overall, I agree with Ishara. The book was awesome. I think it would have been a lot better if RJ had written it, but that's because I like RJ's style, and of course the story would have been told better by the person that came up with it. Some people like Brandon's style better. His tone is a lot lighter than RJ's.

Personally, one of the biggest reasons I won't read other BS works is so that I can't readily tell the difference.

Generally speaking, I'm just hesitant to attribute all of the "bad" stuff to BS as well. We may NEVER know how much RJ had written vs. outlined vs. sketched out. It may be that RJ wrote the bit between Siuan and Bryne - in which case, I'd still think it was a bit clumsy. I just feel like it's an easy out to blame all of the parts we didn't like on BS.

Davian93
03-07-2010, 06:27 PM
It was very good book...in the top half of all the books in the series...BS did a great job and all of the haters need to recognize.



The Bryne/Siuan parts were some of my favorites...also, OF COURSE Rand's mopey. You'd be pretty whiny if you had his life too.

Shalukwa
03-07-2010, 07:04 PM
It's a great book due to most of the content. After CoT dragging out like the longest game of snake ever, there was just so much left to be written, and you could tell that KoD was a bit of a catch up book. The best parts in tGS were the bits that had been foreshadowed from the start - Verin, WT stuff, etc... The rest was so different to RJs style and kinda back to basic fantasy stock.

Don't get me wrong, Brandon did a great job, probably as good as could possibly have been done, but it's no RJ :(

JanDSedai
03-07-2010, 08:00 PM
I think the difference in style has more to do with RJ's use of the 3rd person limited POV, and Brandon's more "modern" cinematagraghic POV's. More of the action is shown "on screen", so to speak, so we don't get into people's heads as much.

Or another way, RJ "shows" us things, as opposed to telling us that's the way it is, and nothing else. We have to sift through the wealth of detail to find the nuggets we take home. Other readers may sieze on another nugget altogether, and that's why we sometimes disagree.

Terez
03-07-2010, 08:22 PM
Yeah, part of it is just that RJ tended to stretch out his dialogues more. Especially with someone like Bryne, with a personality that is supposed to give some impression of gravity...he would never have the character respond too quickly in dialogue. There's always some description of the person giving thought to the matter before speaking, or some such. Great deal more description in general between dialogue lines. Also, Bryne showing any sort of emotion at all is OOC, and though I realize there's a reason for it with Siuan, I still feel like he could have been handled better.

JanDSedai
03-07-2010, 08:59 PM
Right! The interior dialogue is more interesting that what they actually say. At least, when we see what they're thinking, it's actually funny sometimes what they actually say.

I think the difference most people feel with Mat is that we don't get dichotomy of his interior dialogue with his spoken words. We don't get into his head, so we have to take the words at face value. I mean, who is not wittier in their own head that they are out loud?!

GonzoTheGreat
03-08-2010, 05:35 AM
The Bryne/Siuan parts were some of my favorites...also, OF COURSE Rand's mopey. You'd be pretty whiny if you had his life too.Having to run all around the world, knowing that as a result of what you are you will continuously bump into people you don't want to meet when you least expect them, while trying to avoid meeting at least* 5 (step-)mothers in law?
You bet you'd be mopey too.

* Elayne has one mother, who Rand definitely does not want to meet again. Min has three aunts, who would go after him with brooms (or swords, for all I know) in a heart beat. How many Aviendha has is anyone's guess. I'm not entirely sure she herself knows.

Toss the dice
03-08-2010, 05:53 AM
Having to run all around the world, knowing that as a result of what you are you will continuously bump into people you don't want to meet when you least expect them, while trying to avoid meeting at least* 5 (step-)mothers in law?
You bet you'd be mopey too.

* Elayne has one mother, who Rand definitely does not want to meet again. Min has three aunts, who would go after him with brooms (or swords, for all I know) in a heart beat. How many Aviendha has is anyone's guess. I'm not entirely sure she herself knows.

Don't know whether you're joking or half-joking with this, but I'm fairly confident Rand could give a flying you know what about his mothers in law. At least in any area that touches on them approving of him or wanting to hurt him. On top of everything else on Rand's plate, the very idea of being nervous about running into any of his mothers in law is hilarious. I would actually be surprised if he has had ONE thought on this subject since he met the first one of the 3 women he loves.

I don't know about you, but if I was the saviour of the world and also the most hated man on earth, fated to spill my blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul and most likely die, have been battling various spawn of the Shadow for the last few years with more to come, was actively preparing for Tarmon Gaidon itself, and all this alongside a mental state bordering on insanity due to the world's burdens placed on me.....well if one of the mothers in law was disapproving, I would simply tell her to shove it, if I didn't simply laugh in her face instead. It would be laughable regardless.

Daekyras
03-08-2010, 06:17 AM
Don't know whether you're joking or half-joking with this

I've learned to take anything that Gonzo says that seems silly to be tongue in cheek.

He really does know his stuff though.:)

Terez
03-08-2010, 06:54 AM
Taking Gonzo seriously is not necessarily a waste of time, but there is a way to go about it, and taking him over-literally is usually the wrong way.

GonzoTheGreat
03-08-2010, 07:25 AM
Well, Rand's reaction when he hears that Rahvin killed Morgase suggests rather strongly that he isn't willing to hurt her, while Morgase's reaction when she hears about what Rand has done* suggests that she doesn't return these pacifistic sentiments. If I were Rand, I would prefer to have the second conversation with Morgase over a telephone or something, or possibly in a Stedding.
As for Min's aunts: she quite regularly thinks about how they're gonna disapprove of the situation when they find out about it. It is of course possible that she is wrong about that, but once again: if I were Rand, that does not seem a happy situation.
Only in the case of Aviendha would he seem to be in the clear. They take that sort of things in their stride, and any mothers/step-mothers there wouldn't be bothered at all. They might still pummel him a bit, just to show that they're Aiel women, but he is quite used to that by now.

* Neither report is entirely factual, as you lot no doubt know.

Davian93
03-08-2010, 09:12 AM
You'd think if anything that Elayne would have had more issues with Rand essentially oogling her mother when he first met her. I mean, seriously, he essentially eye-humped her in tEotW.

GonzoTheGreat
03-08-2010, 09:13 AM
Aren't girls cool with that?

Davian93
03-08-2010, 09:18 AM
Aren't girls cool with that?

I would have to think that they probably wouldn't be okay with that.

Nazbaque
03-08-2010, 01:55 PM
Good reasons or no, Rand is a mopey dick.

Davian93
03-08-2010, 02:48 PM
Good reasons or no, Rand is a mopey dick.

I believe that's kinda the point though...

Powerslave73
03-08-2010, 06:07 PM
I wanna see Cadsuane's head explode.

Sukoto
03-08-2010, 08:29 PM
I wanna see Cadsuane's head explode.
Me too.

Seeker
03-08-2010, 11:54 PM
Would someone please explain to me exactly what Mat did in The Gathering Storm that constitutes breaking character? Because honestly, I just don't see it.

And let's be clear: a character doing something that he's never done before is NOT out of character. In order to break character, the character must do something he would never do under the circumstances.

So, are you telling me that the man who came up with a complicated scheme that involved tying up a queen and stealing property to escape Ebou Dar... would NEVER come up with a complicated scheme that involves elaborate back stories?

Are you telling me that the man who spanked an Aes Sedai would never be mouthy to said Aes Sedai?

I want to point out that in good fiction the characters HAVE to do new things. It's how they evolve. Characters are supposed to change over time. That's what keeps the story interesting.

What you guys are claiming to be out of character for Mat is actually him GROWING as a character.

Terez
03-09-2010, 12:17 AM
No, it's a pretty simple case of a different author. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but your opinion doesn't change the fact that the author change is a much more logical explanation for the differences than 'character growth'. Brandon never claimed he was going to imitate RJ's style, so I don't see why anyone would try to pretend that the style didn't change.

Seeker
03-09-2010, 01:47 AM
No, it's a pretty simple case of a different author. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but your opinion doesn't change the fact that the author change is a much more logical explanation for the differences than 'character growth'. Brandon never claimed he was going to imitate RJ's style, so I don't see why anyone would try to pretend that the style didn't change.

Absolutely, the style did change.

But what differences? I don't see any differences. I judge a character strictly by what they do, say and think, not by whether the author who is writing that character uses long paragraphs or short ones, lots of adjectives or a few.

Brandon Sanderson's writing style is different but the things Mat is saying, doing and thinking in TGS are consistent with the kinds of things he's always done. Oh sure, some of his opinions are different than they were in earlier books. But that's what happens as a character grows up.

So, I'm asking, what specifically is everyone talking about?

Terez
03-09-2010, 04:01 AM
I might have some time over spring break (next week) to do a proper analysis for you, if no one else has time between now and then.

Daekyras
03-09-2010, 04:38 AM
Absolutely, the style did change.

But what differences? I don't see any differences. I judge a character strictly by what they do, say and think, not by whether the author who is writing that character uses long paragraphs or short ones, lots of adjectives or a few.

Brandon Sanderson's writing style is different but the things Mat is saying, doing and thinking in TGS are consistent with the kinds of things he's always done. Oh sure, some of his opinions are different than they were in earlier books. But that's what happens as a character grows up.

So, I'm asking, what specifically is everyone talking about?

Seeker, did you find NO anomalies in Mat in this book?
I can only give my opinion but I found him...jarring...with how he had been written before.

It felt like BS had taken a list of traits(Fast mouth, ashandieri, Swear words etc.) and created almost a caricature of Mat.

With a minor character like Bryne it is not all that noticeable but Mat is one of the 3 main characters in this book. It practically leaps off the page.

In the example you gave (Ebou Dar) the "scheme" was not all that complicated. It was a plan of action. A plan that Mat would be likely to bring into play. The elaborate backstories is not. It is funny as hell but it is not, in my opinion, a continuation/natural development for the character of Mat.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2010, 05:46 AM
The elaborate backstories thing is the type of scheme that Mat started out with. Something enormously complicated that will produce marvelous results if all goes well. And then, when he puts it into action, something doesn't go as he expected, whereupon all his preparation is in vain.
The only significant difference with his badger scheme from the beginning of TEOTW is that now he is capable of adapting and saving the situation quickly enough to get away without a spanking.

Mat was trying not to change (to use a scheme of the kind that had made him famous in the TR already), while at the same time having to take into account that he had changed, and was now responsible for an entire army.

Daekyras
03-09-2010, 07:27 AM
The only significant difference with his badger scheme from the beginning of TEOTW is that now he is capable of adapting and saving the situation quickly enough to get away without a spanking.


"Badger Scheme?" He had a badger. He was gonna release it to cause some havoc. That's a prank, not a scheme. I've heard you mention this before Gonzo. ;)

Unless of course he was going to try and cover his ass by having the badger tell everyone he had a drug problem and was looking to get his life back on track by living with his aunt or something....

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2010, 08:07 AM
To be honest, I always assumed that Mat had some kind of idea of what to do after everyone started looking for the culprit. I didn't expect his idea to have worked, but I did think that he had something planned.

CJB
03-09-2010, 08:30 AM
Mat inventing backstories didn't particularly bother me by itself, it's that he wrote them down that I found to be out of character.

Davian93
03-09-2010, 08:49 AM
Exactly. We know from previous books (CoS I believe) that his handwriting is blocky and very basic when he leaves Nynaeve and Elayne a note about Carridin. That indicates that he doesn't exactly do a lot of writing to have such basic penmanship. Coming up with stories is one thing, writing them all out is another.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2010, 08:52 AM
I do admit that Mat writing more than very short notes is not in character. His messages to Elayne were generally short and to the point, with no unnecessary embellishments.

Toss the dice
03-09-2010, 09:24 AM
Mat inventing backstories didn't particularly bother me by itself, it's that he wrote them down that I found to be out of character.

You hit the nail on the head. Mat is a very smooth talker if it comes to having to lie to someone with a straight face. I could easily see some outlandish backstory coming to fruition in this case and in the way of one of his Trustair backstories.

But no, he wrote PAGES of backstories down on paper for multiple people as if he was a musical director. All for something as "minor" as a woman handing out drawings of him. At this point in the series I can think of many options that Mat would more likely take. One would be to simply give Trustair a wide berth...it is in his nature. Or try sneaking in to investigate. Or sending people in to try to find the woman. The investigation itself coupled with the assault and defensively positioned forces are well within Mat's character. The addition of a small screenplay along with them is ridiculous when it comes to Mat.

And again (for the record), the reason I think a lot of TGS characters are out of character is NOT due to the writing style. It is the concrete things they SAY and DO that bug the ever loving crap out of me, Mat in particular.

I fully expect to see new things said and done by characters in this book that haven't been said and done before, that is a given. But that isn't the problem. The problem is that all of these things being said and done (and thought) do not mesh at ALL with any of the other books. For example, in all of the preceding books RJ used words like: red, brown, blue, green, yellow, magenta, turquoise. Sanderson uses these words: goat, lamp, tent, tree, microwave. He is in an altogether different category, almost as if he is making his own series with the same names and places.

This is very far from a mere "style" issue. It's like Sanderson didn't read any of the books and got his character descriptions from a sheet of paper that is a rough outline and unfinished. Or he's just being an idiot and decided for whatever reason to make up his own version of the characters.

If you don't see this, then there are a few different reasons why. The first is that your reading style is primarily entertainment-based and is shallow (big time) when it comes to any sort of indepth character reading whatsoever. The second reason is that you have only read the book once and never really took the time to care about the more minor things in the book, only the big events.

The last reason I see is that you are in denial because you can't bear the thought that TGS, a heralded WoT book that finally arrived, is a piece of crap. The part that is hard to swallow for me is that none of the unsavory issues with TGS have anything to do with being an author. Sanderson simply got things wrong, things I or a lot of people could have easily pointed out to him. We don't know how to weave the intricate pattern of words that is a book, but we know when something belongs or doesn't belong in it.

It's like the hired painter that knows how to paint very well (assume you can't paint). He paints your house, but instead of painting it blue like you said, he paints it yellow. You can't paint so you hired someone who could, but they got the color WRONG. Airbrushing, rolling, or using a hand brush to paint the house are all different methods, but any would have been acceptable in this case. (aka writing style)

Don't confuse the method of painting the house that is TGS with the fact that it is yellow.

Basel Gill
03-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Wow dude. I have been lurking a bit, but I had to register just to reply to this one. While it is fun and entertaining to debate the details and possible outcomes of the story and share observations we each may have missed, is it really necessary to bash B.S. like that? Good luck to you in finishing one of the most loved and intricate fantasy series ever written and keep every little detail just so.

I'm not hating on anyone because I'm at least a moderate as far as wanting details to match and have some continuity, but seriously? Aren't we being just a little unreasonable here?

Terez
03-09-2010, 10:36 AM
He was that way before the book came out.

Basel Gill
03-09-2010, 10:53 AM
Well ok, I just feel that sometimes, it just is what it is. Enjoy it or don't, but geeze...

Davian93
03-09-2010, 11:10 AM
Well ok, I just feel that sometimes, it just is what it is. Enjoy it or don't, but geeze...

You're not alone...it was a bit over the top.

Welcome to TL!

Seeker
03-09-2010, 01:26 PM
Seeker, did you find NO anomalies in Mat in this book?
I can only give my opinion but I found him...jarring...with how he had been written before.

It felt like BS had taken a list of traits(Fast mouth, ashandieri, Swear words etc.) and created almost a caricature of Mat.

With a minor character like Bryne it is not all that noticeable but Mat is one of the 3 main characters in this book. It practically leaps off the page.

In the example you gave (Ebou Dar) the "scheme" was not all that complicated. It was a plan of action. A plan that Mat would be likely to bring into play. The elaborate backstories is not. It is funny as hell but it is not, in my opinion, a continuation/natural development for the character of Mat.

I found absolutely no anomalies with Mat. None.

Given Mat's tendency to use very unorthadox tactics in just about everything he does, you're going to have to justify your statement that he would not come up with a plan that involves elaborate back-stories.

Exactly. We know from previous books (CoS I believe) that his handwriting is blocky and very basic when he leaves Nynaeve and Elayne a note about Carridin. That indicates that he doesn't exactly do a lot of writing to have such basic penmanship. Coming up with stories is one thing, writing them all out is another.

Now you guys are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. Remember the axiom I provided. A character doing something new is not necessarily out of character.

Just because Mat doesn't often write things down - which by the way is a big assumption because I write A LOT down and my hand-writing is blocky - doesn't mean he WOULDN'T write something down when the situation called for it.

Throughout the first two thirds of Lord of Chaos Mat was helping Rand plot an offensive against Sammael. The offensive involved the deployment of numerous armies and extensive coordination with Bashere.

The plan for the attack on Illian was fairly complicated, often involving detailed instructions. Do you expect me to believe that Mat never wrote those instructions down so that they could be carried to the appropriate officers? Or wrote situation reports so that they could be given to Rand and Bashere?

He'd be a very poor general if he didn't.

Mat may hate structure and organization; but he can be very organized if he needs to be. That's the mark of a good character: one who is not so trapped by his particular character traits that he cannot adapt.

It's you guys who are making Mat into a caricature, not Brandon Sanderson. You're saying that he can never deviate from the image you have of him in your minds (even if that image isn't the whole picture). And if he can never deviate, then he can't adapt to new situations. And if he can't adapt then he's a caricature.

Davian93
03-09-2010, 01:29 PM
The plan for the attack on Illian was fairly complicated, often involving detailed instructions. Do you expect me to believe that Mat never wrote those instructions down so that they could be carried to the appropriate officers? Or wrote situation reports so that they could be given to Rand and Bashere?

He'd be a very poor general if he didn't.

Generals typically have staffs for that type of stuff...they very rarely write the reports themselves.

Seeker
03-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Generals typically have staffs for that type of stuff...they very rarely write the reports themselves.


I thought of that but ignored it for a very good reason.

Rand's plan was to distract Sammael with a fake attack on his northern borders while a surgical strike was gated into Illian.

That said, information on the REAL plan had to be be kept to the utmost level of secrecy, known only to Rand, Mat, Bashere and possibly a few others. Any letters pertaining to the attack of Illian would have been written by Mat himself and nobody else.

That way the spies in the camp would only get wind of instructions relating to the attack on the northern borders.

Now, Mat was going to be leading the attack on the northern border, but he was also acting as a consultant for Rand's true plan. Meaning that there would have been correspondence and Mat would have written himself.

I would have mentioned this above, but as you can see it's long enough to distract from the actual point which is that Mat will write, at great length when he feels he needs to.

Daekyras
03-09-2010, 03:52 PM
Now you guys are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.


I kinda hope the guys are joking with the writing. Now that would be nit picking!


Given Mat's tendency to use very unorthadox tactics in just about everything he does, you're going to have to justify your statement that he would not come up with a plan that involves elaborate back-stories.
.
.
A character doing something new is not necessarily out of character.


Just to clarify, I enjoyed the book. I think BS did a great job.

As for justifying my statement. I don't think it is out of character because he has never done it before. That would only be out of character for someone if there was no logic to it eg if Elayne just suddenly announced "I'm a blade master" and started chopping dudes up....

I think it is out of character because it is inconsistent with what has gone before. IMO.

Since tFoH Mat has been a man of action. He has had many examples of seeing a situation, assessing it almost instantly and deciding what to do. A good example is his war tent meeting with rand in tFoH. Lan and Rhuarc are impressed.

Throughout Loc and ACoS mention is made that Bashere is impressed by Mat and he has a burgeoning reputation as a war maker.

After ACoS he brings revisionary, effective tactics to war in Randland. He has memories of many great generals and uses them to great effect. His tactics are ruthless and effective.

The only time he dithers is in his interactions with women and his relationship with Olver.(good as he would be close to a mary sue otherwise)

He loves his men(ooh-er!) and loathes putting them in danger.

There is no indication that a man as coldly vicious as he is (crossbow warfare etc.) would rely on "elaborate back stories". No-one who reads that passage could possibly think that plan will work. It is there for comic relief. That is not Mat. He is efficient.

You may not agree with me on this.

But that is what makes this series so brilliant. There are so many ways to see the same situation it leaves much room for debate.:)

Terez
03-09-2010, 04:07 PM
(ooh-er!)
mmm, Talmanes/Mat. I hadn't considered that one...

nameless
03-09-2010, 06:34 PM
If you don't see this, then there are a few different reasons why. The first is that your reading style is primarily entertainment-based and is shallow (big time) when it comes to any sort of indepth character reading whatsoever. The second reason is that you have only read the book once and never really took the time to care about the more minor things in the book, only the big events.

The last reason I see is that you are in denial because you can't bear the thought that TGS, a heralded WoT book that finally arrived, is a piece of crap. The part that is hard to swallow for me is that none of the unsavory issues with TGS have anything to do with being an author. Sanderson simply got things wrong, things I or a lot of people could have easily pointed out to him. We don't know how to weave the intricate pattern of words that is a book, but we know when something belongs or doesn't belong in it.


So if we don't agree with you we're either shallow, lazy, or in denial? How generous of you to give us three different options.

Sure, you could have told BS everything he was doing wrong, but it wouldn't have made a difference because nobody listens to irate fanboys. Even you don't listen to irate fanboys, as evidenced by your schematic quoted above to dismiss out of hand the opinion of every fan who disagrees with your assessment of BS' work.

Nazbaque
03-09-2010, 07:10 PM
Pages and pages from Mat is odd, but not really out of character. Mat is thorough. Preparation is one of his strong points as a general. So if there are going to be backstories, they will be detailed.

What bothers me about the Mat chapters is his followers being so different. Not sure they had enough character to be out of it, but they used to be in awe of Mat. Now they make fun of him. They do it in a friendly fashion to be sure, but earlier they wouldn't have dreamed of it.

Mat chapters have always had some comic relief to them, but this is overdone.

Ishara
03-09-2010, 10:35 PM
This is very far from a mere "style" issue. It's like Sanderson didn't read any of the books and got his character descriptions from a sheet of paper that is a rough outline and unfinished. Or he's just being an idiot and decided for whatever reason to make up his own version of the characters.

If you don't see this, then there are a few different reasons why. The first is that your reading style is primarily entertainment-based and is shallow (big time) when it comes to any sort of indepth character reading whatsoever. The second reason is that you have only read the book once and never really took the time to care about the more minor things in the book, only the big events.

The last reason I see is that you are in denial because you can't bear the thought that TGS, a heralded WoT book that finally arrived, is a piece of crap. The part that is hard to swallow for me is that none of the unsavory issues with TGS have anything to do with being an author. Sanderson simply got things wrong, things I or a lot of people could have easily pointed out to him. We don't know how to weave the intricate pattern of words that is a book, but we know when something belongs or doesn't belong in it.


Seriously pal? Cut the condescension. Just because one doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make one lazy, shallow or stupid. Now you're just being lazy and shallow in your reasoning. ;)

Well ok, I just feel that sometimes, it just is what it is.
You are my new favourite. This is my motto.

mmm, Talmanes/Mat. I hadn't considered that one...
ROFLMAO

Belazamon
03-10-2010, 12:23 AM
It's like Sanderson didn't read any of the books and got his character descriptions from a sheet of paper that is a rough outline and unfinished. Or he's just being an idiot and decided for whatever reason to make up his own version of the characters.

If you don't see this, then there are a few different reasons why.
See sig.

deathjester
03-10-2010, 12:56 AM
Mat seemed like he was trying too hard to be Mat. Mat just wasn't "right". Other then that I liked the book.

JanDSedai
03-10-2010, 02:43 AM
The Problem With Mat
RJ showed us things. Brandon tells us things. Very different styles of writing.
Usually, when we have a Mat viewpoint, it is told from inside his head, so we can see the difference between what is is thinking, and what he says. But Brandon has Mat saying things, and we are left to guess what he may be thinking. For me, the real comedy of Mat's character is the difference between how he thinks and what actually comes out of his mouth!

It is all very well to say that yes I liked it, or no, that wasn't in character, but unless we give BS something a little more concrete to go on, there's no chance of him correcting the problem areas.

GonzoTheGreat
03-10-2010, 06:01 AM
What bothers me about the Mat chapters is his followers being so different. Not sure they had enough character to be out of it, but they used to be in awe of Mat. Now they make fun of him. They do it in a friendly fashion to be sure, but earlier they wouldn't have dreamed of it.Except when he was being talked off his feet by that serving girl (Betse) in Maerone. Or when they were entertaining the flies in Ebou Dar, waiting for Mat to start playing the ta'veren. Or ...

Yes, they do make fun of him a bit, but only when the situation is relaxed enough to make that a safe pastime. Such relaxed moments don't happen all that often around Mat, and usually we don't read about them anyway.

Davian93
03-10-2010, 12:17 PM
Except when he was being talked off his feet by that serving girl (Betse) in Maerone. Or when they were entertaining the flies in Ebou Dar, waiting for Mat to start playing the ta'veren. Or ...

Yes, they do make fun of him a bit, but only when the situation is relaxed enough to make that a safe pastime. Such relaxed moments don't happen all that often around Mat, and usually we don't read about them anyway.

Its part of that whole Band of Brothers thing he has going on.

His men love and respect him just as much as Henry V's men did with him...doesnt mean they didn't joke with him.

crispyfries
03-10-2010, 06:39 PM
For those of you hating on the intro, BS
told us at the Portland book signing that it was the last thing RJ wrote/dictated prior to his death so he made no changes to that scene.

I think my largest dislike was how he chose to write Perrin's awareness of peoples attitudes using his scent.

RJ always used to describe it in a way that left you kind of guessing as to the characters real feeling. BS threw it at you like a brick.

I think those who dislike Matt's scenes have a point on some of the actions being odd. However not so completely ooc that I couldnt enjoy it.

Terez
03-10-2010, 07:33 PM
For those of you hating on the intro, BS told us at the Portland book signing that it was the last thing RJ wrote/dictated prior to his death so he made no changes to that scene.
We know.

Eilonwy
03-10-2010, 08:27 PM
This is small but every time someone said "Lady" instead of "My lady" it irritated me.

CJB
03-11-2010, 10:12 AM
These are very little things, and probably not worth mentioning, but I thought that there was an over abundance of characters saying "Well, no"* or thoughts starting with "Why,..." eg. "Why, Mat could remember when he's though Baerlon a large city..."

* I should probably be thankful for this one actually, because it led me to realise just how often I actually say this myself.

Terez
03-11-2010, 10:53 AM
I noticed that as well, actually. But that's more of a style thing. It only sticks out because RJ didn't do it.

Powerslave73
03-11-2010, 10:08 PM
So if we don't agree with you we're either shallow, lazy, or in denial? How generous of you to give us three different options.

Sure, you could have told BS everything he was doing wrong, but it wouldn't have made a difference because nobody listens to irate fanboys. Even you don't listen to irate fanboys, as evidenced by your schematic quoted above to dismiss out of hand the opinion of every fan who disagrees with your assessment of BS' work.

My dear boy, what you're missing is that this guy is nothing but an irate fanboy. No life, nothing to give his existence meaning except his opinions and preconceptions about where everything should be placed in WOT. Those who do not agree with him "just don't get it." They're not just wrong, they're out to destroy the "greatness" of WOT- that which gives his life a center.
That's not to say he's a bad person- just very hard to reason with.
There are actually more than one of those hanging around...

Terez
03-12-2010, 03:11 AM
Are you comparing me to that fucker? Cause if you are, I will end you.

Just sayin.

Nazbaque
03-12-2010, 04:35 AM
Oh he could never be as bad as you terez.

Terez
03-12-2010, 05:06 AM
:rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2010, 06:42 AM
Has Terez now gotten a compliment or an antipliment?

Ishara
03-12-2010, 10:04 AM
ROFLMAO

That is all.

Heinz
03-12-2010, 06:24 PM
I agree that many of the character's parts were stiff, a little different, and otherwise felt 'off' while reading. However, I pretty much just attribute that to a)BS instead of RJ as the 'nuts and bolts' author of much of it and b)BS getting a feel for characters he's never tried to use before.

I still enjoyed Mat's parts (my favorite character), even if they were among those I felt were 'off'.

Rand still annoyed me, but he's been doing that since...oh...LoC, after Moiraine was gone. I'm wondering if that was intentionally written that way though, to make him get worse and worse as his mental condition worsened, and as a result the character was simply more annoying. I'm curious to read how he is after his mountain-top mental journey/healing, and after Moiraine is rescued (not to mention how Moiraine and Cadsuane get along, or don't).

Aside from that, general thoughts...
I missed Galad's presence, I was looking forward to a PoV from him after his duel. Sounds like he'll be in the next one though.

Gawyn was annoying, but he'd been so before, also since LoC coincidentally.

Really enjoyed the parts of Egwene and the Tower reunification, except Egwene's over-the-top reaction to being rescued. Ok, upset and frustrated, fine. But she HAS to realize that given the circumstances of the attack on the Tower and Elaida going bonkers, there isn't any way to be in more imminent danger short of having her neck already on a chopping block, or in a collar, at which point it'd be too late anyway. No reason to have more than a temporary burst of frustration/anger at Siuan and Gawyn, then move on.

One thing I do often see posted here that I don't understand.. why all the hate for Cadsuane? Probably among my favorite main support characters in the series. Cool, ruthless, strong. The way Aes Sedai SHOULD be, but usually aren't. Arrogant, bull-headed, yes. But I don't find these traits detestible. Again, they're more what I perceive an Aes Sedai should be. Especially one as strong and experienced as she.

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2010, 07:07 PM
One thing I do often see posted here that I don't understand.. why all the hate for Cadsuane? Probably among my favorite main support characters in the series. Cool, ruthless, strong. The way Aes Sedai SHOULD be, but usually aren't. Arrogant, bull-headed, yes. But I don't find these traits detestible. Again, they're more what I perceive an Aes Sedai should be. Especially one as strong and experienced as she.Cadsuane apparently has quite a lot of knowledge which could help Rand, if she shared it with him, but she keeps it to herself.
Case in point: she only tells him of the dangers of using Callandor after he has used it to kill a lot of his own troops with it. She could have told him earlier, but chose not to.

nameless
03-12-2010, 07:28 PM
Cadsuane is everything Aes Sedai think they're supposed to be, which is precisely the problem. They aspire to be emotionless manipulators who control events from the Tower without ever being a part of the world they seek to influence.

Cadsuane herself says that Nynaeve is the only young Aes Sedai she's met that's worth a damn, but the very qualities that make Nynaeve worthwhile - her candor and her willingness to use her passions instead of repressing them - are exactly the qualities most Aes Sedai, Cadsuane included, have spent a lifetime stamping out of themselves.

Ozymandias
03-12-2010, 10:01 PM
Lets first establish that all the complaints to be expected from the writing style should have been anticipated. If Jordan had a fault as an author, it was that he was too detailed in the minor things and too subtle in the important stuff (latter part not being a negative).

Brandon Sanderson just isn't a good author. Not "not as good an author as RJ," just not a good author. And that was part of the reason they chose him. They didn't want someone co-opting the story. They (Tor and Harriet) wanted an author who would be faithful to Jordan's vision while being just different enough that it wouldn't be slavish imitation. They did their job too well.

I was beyond excited for TGS, until I read Mistborn. I found the characters to be poorly developed, the writing to be incredibly juvenile and third rate, and the plot development to be thin. Everything RJ wasn't, in fact. The second I put that down I had two immediate thoughts; a.) you'd have to pay me to read the sequels, and b.) TGS and the rest of the series will only be read as fulfillment of years of effort, and not for enjoyment. Which is depressing. Sanderson just doesn't have the talent to finish these books off, much less take them off their rails and substitute his own train in their place.

Rand's character wasn't written well. Mat, the best personality in the series, was ruined. Utterly ruined. You'll never be able to go back and read any of his chapters, ever, without thinking about what such a promising start comes to. Perrin didn't get any worse, really, but then, his character had been fading for some time.

Sanderson just has a habit of assuming his readers are idiots, which RJ never did. He repeats important information endlessly, often within the space of a few pages. As someone else said, he throws every fact, every emotion, every hint at you like a brick.

It was so bad I've stopped visiting Theoryland as often. I can't help it, I just don't want to think about that abortion of literature. I find there is less to debate, because he leaves no hints (see: bricks). Feel free to disagree, but there really isn't anything new to discuss coming out of this book, and I know its a wrap-up book, but even so thats depressing.

I have difficulty even saying I'm ranting; any passion I had for this series has been bled away as if by some medieval physician, its just difficult to care. And whats worst of it all was it was SO clear when it was still RJ. It made it worse. It reminded you what the whole thing might have been, had not this cut-rate hack of an author come in. I never felt screwed by Tor before about this, when they chose to keep writing and publishing increasingly slow books. Now, I can't help but be bitter that they didn't do due diligence and choose a better ghostwriter.

Sincerely,
Andrew

Neilbert
03-13-2010, 01:36 AM
Rand's character wasn't written well. Mat, the best personality in the series, was ruined. Utterly ruined. You'll never be able to go back and read any of his chapters, ever, without thinking about what such a promising start comes to. Perrin didn't get any worse, really, but then, his character had been fading for some time.

Pretty much this. Rand was boring. Mat was ruined. Perrin regressed to uncertain if he should try and be a Lord.

Terez
03-13-2010, 01:39 AM
I thought that Rand was written very well, for the most part. He seemed slightly stiff at times, but overall, I felt he was IC. Perrin was pretty much the same as always.

Neilbert
03-13-2010, 12:22 PM
Perrin's development took a deep step back to he can have learning time with Galad. Sloppy writing.

Belazamon
03-13-2010, 02:43 PM
It reminded you what the whole thing might have been, had not this cut-rate hack of an author come in.
It's fairly subtle, but I get the impression you don't much like Brandon Sanderson...?

alleluia_cone
03-13-2010, 03:29 PM
The Problem With Mat
RJ showed us things. Brandon tells us things. Very different styles of writing.
Usually, when we have a Mat viewpoint, it is told from inside his head, so we can see the difference between what is is thinking, and what he says. But Brandon has Mat saying things, and we are left to guess what he may be thinking. For me, the real comedy of Mat's character is the difference between how he thinks and what actually comes out of his mouth!

It is all very well to say that yes I liked it, or no, that wasn't in character, but unless we give BS something a little more concrete to go on, there's no chance of him correcting the problem areas.

These were my thoughts exactly. Usually, the old Mat didn't give away very much about how he was feeling. The new Mat makes it abundantly clear over and over again. And more than that, within the framework of the The Gathering Storm, he is literally comic relief to the story, which literally bastardizes the character.

Belazamon
03-13-2010, 03:31 PM
literally bastardizes the character
I don't think that means what you think it means. :D

Daekyras
03-13-2010, 04:54 PM
I don't think that means what you think it means. :D

Inconceivable!!
Love that movie.

Toss the dice
03-15-2010, 11:15 AM
My dear boy, what you're missing is that this guy is nothing but an irate fanboy. No life, nothing to give his existence meaning except his opinions and preconceptions about where everything should be placed in WOT. Those who do not agree with him "just don't get it." They're not just wrong, they're out to destroy the "greatness" of WOT- that which gives his life a center.
That's not to say he's a bad person- just very hard to reason with.
There are actually more than one of those hanging around...

I've always been a blunt kind of guy, I don't like implying and beating around the bush. Admittedly, lots of people don't like that. I also assume you have read plenty of my other posts in other threads before coming to your conclusion. :)

I don't think I have bashed WoT in any way prior to TGS coming out. This is a great place to share theories and get insight into things you are unclear about.

I am a WoT fanboy that didn't like the way TGS was written and am eagerly anticipating the next book in the series, and also hoping it is done better. It is highly doubtful that Sanderson will read this thread, but you also never know.

If you look at this thread from a certain angle, it is interesting. A WoT fanboy (myself) bashing a WoT book and giving many good reasons for it while many of the other WoT fanboys and fangirls call him names and go to great length to try to cut him down using over the top remarks even touching on psychology. Think about that once.

Many of the replies didn't even have any valid or legit reasonings behind them. Never in my wildest dreams or nightmares could I ever even think of some of the crazy crap you wrote Powerslave. Where did you pull that stuff from? Looks like maybe YOU should take a step back and contemplate your relationship to WoT if you feel that way about it. "No life, nothing to give his existence meaning except his opinions and preconceptions about where everything should be placed in WOT." "They're not just wrong, they're out to destroy the "greatness" of WOT- that which gives his life a center."

Personally, I think WoT is by far the greatest fantasy series ever and almost unfortunately hardly ever read books anymore because of it. WoT is hard to top. If you're performing WoT rituals out in a field somewhere Powerslave, my only request is that you kill the goats quickly and mercifully. And if you didn't notice, this thread seems to be ME destroying the "greatness" of WoT while some of you can't handle that. Some of the posters in this thread merely disagree with me and more importantly give reasons why, which is the point of this board. I salute you.

While this thread has apparently shown how obsessingly devoted to WoT some of you are, like a kid defending his favorite football player in the sandbox...it HAS been very interesting from a Freud point of view. And like always, I appreciate all the valid and thought-provoking posts in this thread. There are many angles to see something from.

Neilbert
03-15-2010, 04:40 PM
And more than that, within the framework of the The Gathering Storm, he is literally comic relief to the story, which literally bastardizes the character.

That sums it up rather well. Mat went from being a character to being a joke. It's no surprise that the people who liked Mat the character the least were the most receptive of Mat the joke, and the people who most loved Mat as a character were most upset about him being flattened into some cheesy lines about elaborate backstories and saidaring things.

I don't think that means what you think it means. :D

I don't think you are as clever as you think you are.

Bastardize: to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition. (merriam-webster.com)

Mat was literally reduced from a higher state (character), to a lower one (joke). Think you jumped the gun there sparky, it's not hyperbole in this instance.

Belazamon
03-15-2010, 05:08 PM
Mat was literally reduced from a higher state (character), to a lower one (joke). Think you jumped the gun there sparky, it's not hyperbole in this instance.
And you don't see that "bastardized" and "literally bastardized" are different things?

We seriously just read things differently, dude.

Tree Brother
03-15-2010, 06:59 PM
That sums it up rather well. Mat went from being a character to being a joke. It's no surprise that the people who liked Mat the character the least were the most receptive of Mat the joke, and the people who most loved Mat as a character were most upset about him being flattened into some cheesy lines about elaborate backstories and saidaring things.

I thought the "saidared" bit was from Jordan's notes?

Story was told a bit differently, but it was still enjoyable. We'll see if Mat's character evolves even more in the next book. Since he will play a large role there.

As long as this doesn't turn into something like Steven King's Gunslinger, it will be ok. The last book in that series was so bad, I just stopped reading it.

So far so good.

Neilbert
03-16-2010, 01:02 AM
And you don't see that "bastardized" and "literally bastardized" are different things?

Um... no, they aren't. They could be different things if bastardized was being used metaphorically in the first instance, but it wasn't.

We seriously just read things differently, dude.

Yeah, I get my definitions from dictionaries, you get them from your brain.

Literal: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression

Bastardized: to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition.

So no, I don't see how bastardized and literally bastardized in the context of alleluia_cone's post have different meanings. Please, feel free to explain how literally bastardized means something other than bastardized.

The only explanation I can come up with is if you somehow believe that to bastardize means to make one a bastard.... but that's the root of the word, not what it means.

Belazamon
03-16-2010, 02:09 AM
Hi, Neilbert.

JanDSedai
03-16-2010, 04:03 PM
for Toss the dice--
I'm curious, what would you suggest in place of the "multiple stupid and sentimental flashbacks"? Or the "muliple uneeded and tactless reminders... of obvious things no one could forget"?

Granted, RJ was the master at re-establishing characters from bool to book. I was very pleased he did not do the "What Has Gone Before" route, which would hit us over the head with all the clues at which he had so subtly hinted. But even for the casual reader, he provided enough information for the reader to be invested in the character.

On the flip side, RJ sometimes overdid the identifying mannerisms as a means of character indentifcation. Nyneave "sniffed" and "pulled her braid" a few times too many! But a lot of that is making sure the reader has the character firmly in mind, especially after a lapse in books.

So, yeah, I wish Brandon had got it right. Just enough clues for the casual reader to remember who he's talking about, but not a "recap" that irritates the trufan. And, yes, the flashbacks were unwieldy. People do not think about significant events in their lives without a trigger, and seldom have the ability to view those events objectively. But "stupid" and "tactless" are opinions, which is why people are not responding to your post. (That and the fact in posted thrice!)

Toss the dice
03-16-2010, 07:21 PM
for Toss the dice--
I'm curious, what would you suggest in place of the "multiple stupid and sentimental flashbacks"? Or the "muliple uneeded and tactless reminders... of obvious things no one could forget"?

The main thing I would suggest is simply not putting nearly so many in. Like you said, RJ was masterful at re-establishing characters. He would subtley slide in the re-establishing info, whether it was in the dialogue between characters or wherever. He did it with finesse, and it a completely painless to read, unthinkable even.

It just seemed like BS would "treat" us to a new flashback or reminder every few pages, at the very least. That wouldn't be so bad, but with the combination of Sanderson's bluntness and how OBVIOUS the things he was reminding us of were...they seemed a complete waste of space, if not outright filler. Re-establishing characters and finessely doing a triggered flashback that is very relevant to the "present" of said character(s) is great and even needed, but Sanderson's waddling bricks with flashing lights were too much IMO.

On the flip side, RJ sometimes overdid the identifying mannerisms as a means of character indentifcation. Nyneave "sniffed" and "pulled her braid" a few times too many! But a lot of that is making sure the reader has the character firmly in mind, especially after a lapse in books.

I agree, RJ did a ton of sniffing and pulling of braids. Luckily, RJ was such an insanely good author that I (and I'm guessing maybe others as well) never was irritated at RJ for all the sniffing and yanking. I was irritated at Nynaeve and company. Never a thought to blame RJ...because he wrote in such a way that they could sniff twice as much as they did and that would simply be their "character."

So, yeah, I wish Brandon had got it right. Just enough clues for the casual reader to remember who he's talking about, but not a "recap" that irritates the trufan. And, yes, the flashbacks were unwieldy. People do not think about significant events in their lives without a trigger, and seldom have the ability to view those events objectively. But "stupid" and "tactless" are opinions, which is why people are not responding to your post. (That and the fact in posted thrice!)

I'm expecting and hoping that the next Sanderson installment cuts down on a lot of the reminders and flashbacks due to it being his 2nd. I also expect it to be a better book in general, as well as being more entertaining. I thought TGS would have more stuff happening than it did, and it seems like a good bet that the next book will be pretty event packed, the book that TGS should have been. (at least to what I anticipated before I read it)

I still stand by my "stupid" and "tactless" opinions. I am sticking to them like a leech on somebody's leg. I am sorry about the triple post though, it wasn't intentional.

Toss the dice
03-16-2010, 07:34 PM
for Toss the dice--
I'm curious, what would you suggest in place of the "multiple stupid and sentimental flashbacks"? Or the "muliple uneeded and tactless reminders... of obvious things no one could forget"?

The main thing I would suggest is simply not putting nearly so many in. Like you said, RJ was masterful at re-establishing characters. He would subtley slide in the re-establishing info, whether it was in the dialogue between characters or wherever. He did it with finesse, and it a completely painless to read, unthinkable even.

It just seemed like BS would "treat" us to a new flashback or reminder every few pages, at the very least. That wouldn't be so bad, but with the combination of Sanderson's bluntness and how OBVIOUS the things he was reminding us of were...they seemed a complete waste of space, if not outright filler. Re-establishing characters and finessely doing a triggered flashback that is very relevant to the "present" of said character(s) is great and even needed, but Sanderson's waddling bricks with flashing lights were too much IMO.

On the flip side, RJ sometimes overdid the identifying mannerisms as a means of character indentifcation. Nyneave "sniffed" and "pulled her braid" a few times too many! But a lot of that is making sure the reader has the character firmly in mind, especially after a lapse in books.

I agree, RJ did a ton of sniffing and pulling of braids. Luckily, RJ was such an insanely good author that I (and I'm guessing maybe others as well) never was irritated at RJ for all the sniffing and yanking. I was irritated at Nynaeve and company. Never a thought to blame RJ...because he wrote in such a way that they could sniff twice as much as they did and that would simply be their "character."

So, yeah, I wish Brandon had got it right. Just enough clues for the casual reader to remember who he's talking about, but not a "recap" that irritates the trufan. And, yes, the flashbacks were unwieldy. People do not think about significant events in their lives without a trigger, and seldom have the ability to view those events objectively. But "stupid" and "tactless" are opinions, which is why people are not responding to your post. (That and the fact in posted thrice!)

I'm expecting and hoping that the next Sanderson installment cuts down on a lot of the reminders and flashbacks due to it being his 2nd. I also expect it to be a better book in general, as well as being more entertaining. I thought TGS would have more stuff happening than it did, and it seems like a good bet that the next book will be pretty event packed, the book that TGS should have been. (at least to what I anticipated before I read it)

I still stand by my "stupid" and "tactless" opinions. I am sticking to them like a leech on somebody's leg. I am sorry about the triple post though, it wasn't intentional.

Powerslave73
03-16-2010, 08:44 PM
I've always been a blunt kind of guy, I don't like implying and beating around the bush. Admittedly, lots of people don't like that. I also assume you have read plenty of my other posts in other threads before coming to your conclusion. :)

I don't think I have bashed WoT in any way prior to TGS coming out. This is a great place to share theories and get insight into things you are unclear about.

I am a WoT fanboy that didn't like the way TGS was written and am eagerly anticipating the next book in the series, and also hoping it is done better. It is highly doubtful that Sanderson will read this thread, but you also never know.

If you look at this thread from a certain angle, it is interesting. A WoT fanboy (myself) bashing a WoT book and giving many good reasons for it while many of the other WoT fanboys and fangirls call him names and go to great length to try to cut him down using over the top remarks even touching on psychology. Think about that once.

Many of the replies didn't even have any valid or legit reasonings behind them. Never in my wildest dreams or nightmares could I ever even think of some of the crazy crap you wrote Powerslave. Where did you pull that stuff from? Looks like maybe YOU should take a step back and contemplate your relationship to WoT if you feel that way about it. "No life, nothing to give his existence meaning except his opinions and preconceptions about where everything should be placed in WOT." "They're not just wrong, they're out to destroy the "greatness" of WOT- that which gives his life a center."

Personally, I think WoT is by far the greatest fantasy series ever and almost unfortunately hardly ever read books anymore because of it. WoT is hard to top. If you're performing WoT rituals out in a field somewhere Powerslave, my only request is that you kill the goats quickly and mercifully. And if you didn't notice, this thread seems to be ME destroying the "greatness" of WoT while some of you can't handle that. Some of the posters in this thread merely disagree with me and more importantly give reasons why, which is the point of this board. I salute you.

While this thread has apparently shown how obsessingly devoted to WoT some of you are, like a kid defending his favorite football player in the sandbox...it HAS been very interesting from a Freud point of view. And like always, I appreciate all the valid and thought-provoking posts in this thread. There are many angles to see something from.

Heh, I think you seriously misread the spirit of my post if you think I'm performing WOT rituals in a field somewhere! I'm city-bred. I do those things in abandoned warehouses and junk!
My point was that some here- yourself included- take this stuff way too seriously. It's a book, dude. Yes, it's without a doubt the absolute best fantasy series ever written, leaving the far more esteemed LOTR behind in its dust. I've been reading them since EOTW was brand new in hardcover. Even lost a girlfriend once because I got so into reading TGH that I forgot to pick her up for a date. Several times. She was a bitch anyway... There's more than one reason I found the book more interesting than I found her. That woman even had the gall to...
OK, back to my point: It's a damn book! I sincerely apologize if what I wrote was offensive to you. I tend to type on the fly and be much more abrasive than I actually want to be.
That being said, I stand by the core of what I wrote.
And please... Enough with the casual drive-by ragging on whatever you think is wrong with other things I've posted. Be more specific. I don't have feelings, so I promise you can't hurt them. I have no problem with someone saying that something I've posted is stupid, as long as you can say why it's stupid. Otherwise you just look petulant.

Love you, sweetie pie!

Powerslave73
03-16-2010, 08:47 PM
I really think me and Tossy are gonna be friends before this is over.

Terez
03-17-2010, 01:46 AM
None of us would be surprised.

Toss the dice
03-17-2010, 10:59 AM
I really think me and Tossy are gonna be friends before this is over.

I like your avatar, it suits you.

alleluia_cone
03-17-2010, 05:09 PM
I have to say, I didn't think The Gathering Storm was by any means the best book in the series, but really, it was at least superior to Knife of Dreams, Crossroads of Twilight, The Path of Daggers, and possibly even Winter's Heart.

Truthfully, from the The Path of Daggers on, the story has been in somewhat of a rut. Keep in mind that at the point in time when that book was released, sometime in 1998 if I recall correctly, the following was taking place:

- Perrin was dealing with Masema and the Shaido. In my opinion, the most joyless story arc in the entire series and possibly the most pointless.
- Egwene al'Vere was beginning her siege of the White Tower.
- Rand al'Thor was attempting to stall the Seanchan invasion while battling with the voice of Lews Therin.
- Mat Cauthon was missing in action but presumably trying to leave Ebou Dar and start the long trek back to Caemlyn.

Now, let us fast-forward to 2009, a full 11 years after The Path of Daggers when The Gathering Storm was released.

- Perrin is finishing up with the Shaido and finally moving camp after "failing" in his mission regarding Masema.
- Egwene al'Vere continues in her siege against the White Tower and finally succeeds by the end of the book.
- Rand al'Thor continues to try stemming the Seanchan invasion, finally bringing matters to a head during a meeting with Tuon. He finally deals with the Lews Therin issue.
- Mat is still on his trek to Caemlyn, but thankfully has some of his problems solved with the help of Verin.

I'm not trying to make the point that everything in between those two time bookends was worthless, or even that the delay was inexcusable. Indeed, much of the delay can be attributed to the fact that the author of the series died which undoubtedly caused massive issues with scheduling and whatnot.

Having said that, I do find it ironic that one of the complaints against Sanderson is that he spends too much time rehashing previous events. Considering that he did more for plot advancement in 300,000 words than Jordan managed in something over a million, I'm thankful at the pace of the story if nothing else.

The other thing is, in regard to how slowly the story moves, I think if there is any fault there, it is certainly not Sanderson's. His pace is probably dictated by Jordan himself, his editor, and whatever other constraints were placed on him when he took up the job.

Thus, when I criticize him, I tend to pick at stylization issues, or how he has butchered certain characterizations. In so far as rehashing is concerned, I'm not even sure this is his fault. Given the pace of the previous four books in the series, I'm inclined to lay the blame in other quarters.

Powerslave73
03-19-2010, 04:29 PM
I like your avatar, it suits you.

I know, right? Like, at first you prolly didn't like me. Prolly found all kinds of faults about me. Then some other poster came along, prolly promising "hope" and "change", and you came to a startling realization: The 'Slave wasn't so darn bad after all! In fact, this new guy kinda makes the 'Slave look like the best damn poster ever!
Thanks, buddy!
See? I told you guys Tossy and I were gonna be buds!

Basel Gill
03-19-2010, 05:12 PM
Sorry Powerslave if I'm stealing your idea, but I was just trying it out to see if I could get the avatar changed and I kind of like it...

CJB
03-24-2010, 08:15 AM
One more little thing that suddenly popped into my head for no particular reason; some of the language was far too modern. Mat telling Joline to "Do the math" just seems massively out of place (and as an Englishman, that phrase hurts my soul anyhow).

Casabamelon
03-25-2010, 04:00 PM
One more little thing that suddenly popped into my head for no particular reason; some of the language was far too modern. Mat telling Joline to "Do the math" just seems massively out of place (and as an Englishman, that phrase hurts my soul anyhow).

Do the maths?
________
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greatwolf
03-25-2010, 07:30 PM
One more little thing that suddenly popped into my head for no particular reason; some of the language was far too modern. Mat telling Joline to "Do the math" just seems massively out of place (and as an Englishman, that phrase hurts my soul anyhow).

Agreed. It should have been in the old tongue. :)

Kurtz
03-25-2010, 09:29 PM
One more little thing that suddenly popped into my head for no particular reason; some of the language was far too modern. Mat telling Joline to "Do the math" just seems massively out of place (and as an Englishman, that phrase hurts my soul anyhow).

Good call, that was fucking deplorable

greatwolf
03-27-2010, 07:23 AM
Do the maths?


The statement is clearly out of context in a low tech culture of Randland though it might fit better in a scene from the aol. It is typical of the problems that BS faces in tGS and the coming books. RJ piled a lot of detail into his world. Several different cultures and even cultures from a different time (the forsaken and LT are actually from a culture in a different time) Yet RJ was able to make you see through the eyes of each character and live the life he lives and the choices they make, good or ill and wove them together into a beautiful story.

But its a story that has spanned several years with so much detail that am always amazed that even RJ could keep up. And now we expect BS to master it. And in just a year or two, stuff that took RJ maybe two decades to write.


Yet, master it he must. Because it is the very soul of the series IMO. The detail makes the WoT distinct. The plots and varied subplots, realistic as they are, are largely unique to the WoT. It is the detail in them that makes fan sites lioke TL possible.

We can discuss the minutest detail of the books simply because we were sure that every detail was exactly placed. We can discuss time lines, strength of character and even attempt to predict behavior of character because we knew the books would hold true. And we expect the end to hold true to the series.


That said, it is also very unfair to expect BS to be able to master so much detail in so short a time. In fact I believe the only reason we've not sen a lot more is because BS was already familiar with the series. Yet I doubt fandom demands that the series be finished. We can only wish Brandon Godspeed in mastering the work of the master himself.

nameless
03-27-2010, 07:34 PM
The White Tower has an entire library devoted to mathematics, and many cultures with tech similar to or worse than Randland's had mathematics almost as advanced as what we use today (Ancient China, Ancient Greece, Ancient Maya, Medieval Arabia, etc.)

greatwolf
03-28-2010, 03:04 AM
The White Tower has an entire library devoted to mathematics, and many cultures with tech similar to or worse than Randland's had mathematics almost as advanced as what we use today (Ancient China, Ancient Greece, Ancient Maya, Medieval Arabia, etc.)

Yeah and you could add that kids on the street in ancient china were discussing math on the street. Do they also discuss the internet? Advanced sociology?


The issue of the tower library is rather pointless. Its like expecting the average man on the street to use terms like "weaves of air" or discussing healing even though knowledge of those things are widespread in this age. Most people do not bring advanced scientific discussion into normal everyday talk. "I can count" or "you do the tally" would have been less out of place.

Belazamon
03-28-2010, 03:13 AM
Yeah and you could add that kids on the street in ancient china were discussing math on the street. Do they also discuss the internet? Advanced sociology?
Internet, I'll grant you. But why would we assume they weren't discussing the other two? Are we simply operating under the silly assumption that people in ancient times were stupider than us?

greatwolf
03-28-2010, 03:26 AM
Internet, I'll grant you. But why would we assume they weren't discussing the other two? Are we simply operating under the silly assumption that people in ancient times were stupider than us?

So you're saying people in ancient times are not as stupid as you?


Just need clarification. :)

Belazamon
03-28-2010, 09:54 PM
So you're saying people in ancient times are not as stupid as you?
Not at all! I'm sure I'm just as stupid as the next ancient person.

... Wait.

GonzoTheGreat
03-29-2010, 05:58 AM
Actually, "do the math" as a way of saying "it is possible to figure it out" is a rather modern way of looking at things. That would not at all have been an obvious approach until after Newton's classical mechanics became the de facto standard for judging knowledge.

So, for instance, in the 16th century, "do the math" wouldn't have been a phrase you would expect from anyone but perhaps an astrologer talking to another astrologer. In the same way, I would not expect it from someone in Randland, since they do not seem to have such a mechanistic world view as we have.

In short, yes, it is out of character, and just a few hours of contemplation clearly show that it shouldn't have been used.

Chaoz
03-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Things that annoyed me about TGS (does not necessarily mean I think Sanderson did anything wrong):

- I would've liked to see the scene of Morgase having her ex-queen status revealed, rather than just having it mentioned my Tam in a few sentences.

- Aes Sedai attitudes (something I've always found annoying). 90% of them act so superior and arrogant around normal people but whenever they are among themselves (or around strong personalities like Rand) they totally break down and act like 12 yr old girls.

- Nynaeve being treated like crap, again. She is one of my favorite female characters in the story and it just makes me angry every time people look down on her and treat her like a child. :mad: No other main character has had to deal with the amount of crap that gets thrown at her. I just wish she'd get the respect she deserves for once.

- Egwene being so angry at Siuan and Gawyn for saving her. Seriously, I think her attitude would be totally different if, say, they had saved in the brink of time just as she was collared and about to be flown away. Given the situation and how much Siuan knew about what was going on in the tower, I thought they made the right choice. I can understand Egwene getting angry at them, but she just takes it too far the way she talks about how she hasn't decided how to deal with them yet, as if they had committed some grave offense.

- No Elayne at all, and also where did Padan Fain go?

- Graendal dying so suddenly. Assuming that Graendal's "death" wasn't some masterful plan she concocted to go off the radar, it was just way too sudden. I thought she was going to play some major part in the story due to her instructions from the dark lord early in the book but then she never appears and suddenly dies.

----------------------------------------

As for the discussion of some of the characters being out of character, I personally didn't think any of them were really out of character (or at least, that anything they did in TGS was some negative effect of the author change). Human beings are inconsistent in nature. What they do and how they do it usually varies within certain extremes, and it usually takes something major for them to go beyond those extremes. I personally don't think anything any of the characters did in TGS went beyond the extremes of what they might have done. Lots of things we do are based on split second decisions and subconscious influences, and sometimes it's difficult to be "consistent" even if we tried. Personally, I thought it was pretty hilarious when Mat wrote up the different back-stories. Also, regarding Talmanes becoming more humorous and mocking of Mat, I thought maybe it was just because over time he has come closer to Mat (in a platonic way of course :rolleyes:) and therefore can let more of his personality show.

Terez
03-29-2010, 01:31 PM
LMAO at being pissed cause Nynaeve gets treated like she treats everyone else!

Oh, and welcome to Theoryland. ;)

Chaoz
03-29-2010, 01:49 PM
LMAO at being pissed cause Nynaeve gets treated like she treats everyone else!

Oh, and welcome to Theoryland. ;)

Thx

Well, I am kinda biased when it comes to Nynaeve treating others like children :D. I find it endearing. But other people doing it to her is just unacceptable! :mad:

Terez
03-29-2010, 02:05 PM
I think you and Isabel will get along well.

greatwolf
03-29-2010, 06:43 PM
No. Absolutely no match making on TL or I'll go for the cops. :mad:

Ozymandias
03-30-2010, 11:20 AM
Wat? Who says he left hours before Rand? I rather got the impression that he had just left, not long before Rand did. Also, RJ introduced the 'double' Traveling in book 8; it was a large part of the strategy Rand and the Asha'man used to fight the Seanchan in Altara.

Not the same, Terez. In PoD we never see Asha'man making immediate jumps. Its implied they only need 20-30 minutes instead of the aforementioned hour to jump from battlefield to command post, but never anything like what Rand did in Ebou Dar.

And I feel as though somewhere, there is a reference to the idea that short jumps take less time (if any at all) than long Travels do.

EDIT: Also Chaoz, most of your complaints are rooted in the absolutely hatable female characters RJ created. He's second only to Eddings in creating annoying, self righteous, and generally stupid leading female roles.

Toss the dice
03-31-2010, 06:45 AM
As for the discussion of some of the characters being out of character, I personally didn't think any of them were really out of character (or at least, that anything they did in TGS was some negative effect of the author change). Human beings are inconsistent in nature. What they do and how they do it usually varies within certain extremes, and it usually takes something major for them to go beyond those extremes. I personally don't think anything any of the characters did in TGS went beyond the extremes of what they might have done. Lots of things we do are based on split second decisions and subconscious influences, and sometimes it's difficult to be "consistent" even if we tried. Personally, I thought it was pretty hilarious when Mat wrote up the different back-stories. Also, regarding Talmanes becoming more humorous and mocking of Mat, I thought maybe it was just because over time he has come closer to Mat (in a platonic way of course :rolleyes:) and therefore can let more of his personality show.

Within extremes huh? Basing potentially legitimate "within character" actions on your above rules, pretty much most everything ANY character does will be acceptable.

Sanderson's writing style aside, the fact remains that TGS is horribly unique when it comes to the characters being "in character." Every SINGLE other WoT book (there's 11 of them), is completely on the nose in terms of characters saying and doing things you would expect of them, and all 11 books are the same. They all belong to the same exact character molds.

Enter book 12, TGS. Throw out all writing style excuses. With a few exceptions, pretty much all of the characters have at least a couple glaringly obvious parts where they are out of character. I'm talking left field bad. A few lucky characters have this happen so often, they have been completely ruined. Mat is one of them. There is a world of difference between a "dynamic" character and giving you a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT character.

I've slowly come to the realization that this is really a simple matter. Sanderson sucks.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2010, 07:24 AM
Not the same, Terez. In PoD we never see Asha'man making immediate jumps. Its implied they only need 20-30 minutes instead of the aforementioned hour to jump from battlefield to command post, but never anything like what Rand did in Ebou Dar.
Well, they do make immediate small jumps.
The others followed quickly, the Asha’man first of all. Dashiva stared in Rand’s direction, frowning, and Narishma, too, but Gedwyn immediately began directing his Soldiers. One by one, they rushed forward, opened a gateway and darted through, dragging their mounts behind them. Ahead up the valley, bright flashes of light told of gateways opening and closing. The Asha’man could Travel short distances without first memorizing the ground they left from, and cover ground far faster than riding. In short order, only Gedwyn and Rochaid remained, aside from the Dedicated holding the gateways. The others would be fanning out westward, searching for Seanchan. The Saldaeans were through from Illian, and mounting. Legionmen spread into the trees at a trot, crossbows held ready. In this country, they could move as fast afoot as men on horseback.This doesn't say that they learn the ground well enough to Travel from it, true. But somewhere else in the series it is mentioned that Traveling to a place is the best way of learning it quickly, and combining the two (as Rand does) is an obvious development, in hindsight.

Terez
03-31-2010, 07:39 AM
No. Absolutely no match making on TL or I'll go for the cops. :mad:
You're just pissed cause everyone knows you're a girl.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2010, 07:58 AM
You're just pissed cause everyone knows you're a girl.Or she has a thing for guys in uniform. :p

Ozymandias
03-31-2010, 11:39 AM
Internet, I'll grant you. But why would we assume they weren't discussing the other two? Are we simply operating under the silly assumption that people in ancient times were stupider than us?

Not less intelligent, but less knowledgeable. The average person on the street is far more informed, and I guess just plain booksmart, than his counterpart on the streets of Babylon 3000 years ago. Yes, ancient cultures had advanced mathematics, but nothing like we have. And as CJB pointed out, "do the math" is a modern colloquialism, and even if Randlanders had insanely sick math skills, its irrelevant, because its the saying itself, and not the implications behind it, that are so modern and thus so out of place.

dominominic
03-31-2010, 05:44 PM
Maybe(hopefullly) it will be changed in future printings?

greatwolf
03-31-2010, 06:55 PM
You're just pissed cause everyone knows you're a girl.


Ha! You just want to know if I'm a guy or not. Sorry, no telling for you :p:p

Casabamelon
04-01-2010, 09:58 AM
Ha! You just want to know if I'm a guy or not. Sorry, no telling for you :p:p

If you're nursing a baby and are NOT a girl, I'm calling the cops.
________
Contents insurance forum (http://www.insurance-forums.org/contents-insurance/)

greatwolf
04-01-2010, 12:06 PM
If you're nursing a baby and are NOT a girl, I'm calling the cops.


lol. Fathers get some paternity leave too, I only had to arm twist my boss to get it. :D

Casabamelon
04-05-2010, 11:03 AM
lol. Fathers get some paternity leave too, I only had to arm twist my boss to get it. :D

I got two weeks of paternity leave.

Oddly, though, my vacation was 80 hours less than when I left...

Still, some of the best two weeks of my life.
________
Ffm compilation (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/539/compilation/videos/1)

Ishara
04-06-2010, 12:55 PM
Fathers don't nurse.

halo6819
04-06-2010, 01:12 PM
not to be crude, but this is TL and every argument needs a devils advocate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation