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View Full Version : THoughts on Messana (non identity related)


halo6819
03-12-2010, 04:34 PM
i must say im slightly afraid this may go into felix territory, weaving a large conspiracy theory out of nothing, but i have been thinking about some possible plans Messana might have for ToM.

Theory:
Messana wants to have 13 dream terangreal so she can have a group of black sisters bring people to TAR and bind them to the shadow with 13 mydrall.

proofs:
one thing that has bothered me for a long time was how many terangreal leandrin and co took with them from the tower. for along time i assumed it was 13, one for each of them. but while listening to the series again, i realized that the number is closer to twice that. but we know for a fact that 13 of the terangreal they took where to enter TAR:
When it was so real she was sure she could reach out and touch it, she opened her eyes, and she was there, in the Heart of the Stone. Or the Heart of the Stone as it existed in Tel'aran'rhiod.
The columns were there, and Callandor. And around the sparkling sword, almost as dim and insubstantial as shadows, thirteen women sat cross-legged, staring at Callandor as it revolved. Honey-haired Liandrin turned her head, looking straight at Egwene with those big, dark eyes, and her rosebud mouth smiled.

Gasping, Egwene sat up in bed so fast she almost fell off the side.

so all thirteen can enter TAR, this strongly points to them having thirteen terangreal to do so, unless the ones the wonder girls have can alow more then one person to enter if multiple people channel at it, but we have never seen this on screen so it makes it unlikely.

When Moghedian is fighting with nyneave in TAR she mentions that somethings are stronger when done in TAR.
The other woman laughed. "A delightful tale. I can almost see what fascinates Semirhage about breaking the spirit. Oh, you are going to provide me with a great deal of entertainment, Nynaeve al'Meara. But first, you are going to bring the girl Elayne to me. You will shield her and bind her and bring her to lie at my feet. Do you know why? Because some things are actually stronger in Tel'aran'rhiod than in the waking world. That is why you will be a glossy white mare whenever I bring you here. And it is not only hurts taken here that last into waking. Compulsion is another. I want you to think of it for a moment or two, before you begin believing it your own idea. I suspect that the girl is your friend. But you are going to bring her to me like a pet —" Moghedien screamed as a silver arrow suddenly stuck its head out from below her right breast.

obviously she is referring to compulsion in this passage, but perhaps it could refer to shadow binding as well.

This would explain why Messana wanted the dream terangreal in the rebel camp, since leandrin and co had taken the thirteen out of the tower. I dont know if we have an exact count as to how many were in the rebel camp, but thirteen + is not out of the question, seeing as Elayne made one just as an excuse to talk with sheriam.

"I think this one will work better, Sheriam," Elayne said, handing over a twisted blue-and-red flecked ring of what had been stone this morning. In truth, it was no different from any other she had made. They stood apart from the crowd, at the mouth of a narrow alley lit by the red sun. Behind them fiddles squealed and flutes sang.

its not a very neat theory, but just something i was thinking about while listening to the series again.

please proceed to rip me to shreds:D

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2010, 05:41 PM
I do like the theory. An added advantage for the Shadow is that in TAR it is quite easy to get the required 13 Myrddraal when and where you want them.
That was the bottleneck in converting the Wonder Girls when they were caught in Tear: transporting enough Fades took time which they didn't have.

Basel Gill
03-12-2010, 05:46 PM
I like it too. Explains some of the obsession with TAR that showed up early in the series. Why not?

Tree Brother
03-12-2010, 05:46 PM
I do like the theory. An added advantage for the Shadow is that in TAR it is quite easy to get the required 13 Myrddraal when and where you want them.
That was the bottleneck in converting the Wonder Girls when they were caught in Tear: transporting enough Fades took time which they didn't have.

Fades can Travel (using edges of shadows, or whatever). Transporting shouldn't be an issue. Unless you mean tracking them down and giving them orders to assemble takes time.

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2010, 05:51 PM
Fades can Travel (using edges of shadows, or whatever). Transporting shouldn't be an issue. Unless you mean tracking them down and giving them orders to assemble takes time.Yes and no. Apparently, there are limits to that.

For instance, when Egwene&co had gotten themselves on the auction block, they had to wait a couple of hours before the buyer (a Fade) showed up. And then they inconsiderately spoiled the transaction.

halo6819
03-12-2010, 06:14 PM
I have also wondered at the limits of shadow traveling. to me it would seem that rand would have a rough time if 100 fades popped into his bedchamber at night, especially earl yer in the series. Also, if i was a fade, i would be using the shadows in battle ala jumper. make them about a hundred times deadlier. We just havnt seen enough of the shadow traveling to get a good grasp on how it works and what its limits are. seems like even the forsaken arnt 100% sure.

So i would imagine that the bottleneck is time it would take to get the orders to thirteen mydrall. and then they could be there either instantly or within a day.

well, while i was typing all this i found a piece of evidence against my theory...
"I serve," she said quickly. "I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine."

so the chances of Mydrall in TAR is very slim as they probibly canot enter in the flesh due to them dying when they enter a gateway, though perhaps the gate to TAR is different enough from a normal gateway that it dosnt kill them.

or maybe there shadow travel allows them to travel into TAR in the flesh. and if that is true, maybe thats how slayer moves in and out....

now that is a slipperyslope my friends...:D

Kalli
03-12-2010, 11:31 PM
A myrddraal in the waking world may not dream but couldn't you produce a myrddraal in TAR kinda like the the Zomra? (sp...? the mindless but telepathic creatures at the Forsaken gathering)

Weird Harold
03-13-2010, 03:02 AM
I have also wondered at the limits of shadow traveling.

A Mydraal requires an "edge of shadow" -- eg a line of high contrast -- to travel. Presumably it should require an "edge of shadow" at the destination as well, but there is no specific reference to that; just the Borderlander practice of lighting with many different torces to avoid casting any shadows.

aCoS
Chapter 40
Spears
Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haranís hand, the hand of the Hand of the Shadow. In an instant the wooden haft was charred and twisted; the spearhead dropped off. The Myrddraal let the blackened stick fall and dusted soot from its palm. If Sammael served chaos, then all was well. If not...

A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come.

greatwolf
03-13-2010, 04:15 AM
I've always had a suspicion that AS Travelling used TAR in some way though I've never found direct evidence for this. But how would fade Travelling work? through a network of shadows? Meaning they can Travel only to timezones of night? or twilight? Or do they need an unbroken ring of shadow? And what powers the process?

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2010, 04:49 AM
And what powers the process?Zucchini, of course.

greatwolf
03-13-2010, 06:22 AM
Zucchini, of course.

Is that cheese or burger?

If fades use then TP to ride shadows, then it is possible we'll have other fades channeling in future not just Shadar Haran. It is walso within possiblity that they use some means that is neither TP nor OP.

nameless
03-13-2010, 05:03 PM
If it were True Power they'd be aware of it and Aginor wouldn't have had to tortue hundreds of them to death trying to figure out how they did it.

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2010, 05:22 PM
If it were True Power they'd be aware of it and Aginor wouldn't have had to tortue hundreds of them to death trying to figure out how they did it.He might've done that anyway, of course, just to properly establish his Chosen street cred.

halo6819
05-12-2010, 08:55 PM
something else along these lines popped into my head.

somewhere RJ mentioned that those who crossed the Black would suffer accidents ala "drawing too much of the power" or "experimenting with unkown ter'angreal" well, it seems that every last *angreal researcher (that we know of) suffered this fate.

long shot, but perhaps when those researchers found a dream ter'angreal the BA killed them and took it.

Terez
05-12-2010, 09:20 PM
something else along these lines popped into my head.

somewhere RJ mentioned that those who crossed the Black would suffer accidents ala "drawing too much of the power" or "experimenting with unkown ter'angreal" well, it seems that every last *angreal researcher (that we know of) suffered this fate.
I didn't find anything from RJ specifically related to any sort of 'angreal, though he did mention that some failed recruits appear to have died from 'experimenting with the Power'.

How many 'angreal researchers do we know of that died this way? Corianin Nedeal is definitely fishy (Verin's story about how those notes were come by was probably fictitious), but Setalle Anan (Martine Janata) survived. Of course, Jarna Malari died via a ter'angreal, but she was the Head of the Black, and that was Ishamael's punishment. Galina mentioned that she and Katerine would have days to scream in the dark before they died if they screwed up, and that's essentially what happened to Jarna, but it was publicly an accident when it happened to Jarna, and you'd think the Tower would get suspicious if it happened all the time.

Anyway, the dream ter'angreal that Liandrin's 13 took were publicly stolen from the Tower's official stash, so the Black hadn't managed to take those from Corianin (they were mostly all last studied by Corianin).

There's a good chance that you're right about the accidents not really being accidents, though. The Blacks are known for using an agenda of fear. Elayne's willingness to experiment with ter'angreal is a step away from that fear.